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We hold these truths to be self-evident…

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Can you spot the common theme in these historic statements?

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – Excerpt from the American Declaration of Independence, which was ratified on July 4, 1776.

Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good.” – Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (1789), article 1. The Declaration was approved by the National Constituent Assembly of France, on August 26, 1789.

“Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.” – Excerpt from President Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, delivered on November 19, 1863.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.” – Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), article 1. The Declaration was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 at the Palais de Chaillot, Paris.

“I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.‘”- Excerpt from the famous ‘I Have a Dream’ speech by Martin Luther King, Jr., delivered on 28 August 1963, at the Lincoln Memorial, Washington D.C.

(Emphases mine – VJT.)

Belief in human equality is a vital part of our democratic heritage. Take this belief away, and the moral foundations of Western civilization immediately collapse, like a house of cards.

Atheists divided

Sad to say, many (perhaps most) of the world’s 25 most influential living atheists don’t seem to share this belief. Specifically, many of these atheists don’t believe that newborn babies have the same moral worth as human adults.

However, there are some notable exceptions. Quite a few of the world’s most influential atheists still firmly believe that newborn babies are just as important as adults, and for that, I applaud them.

The question of whether newborn babies have the same moral worth as human adults is a fundamental one. Putting it another way: is killing a newborn baby just as bad as killing an adult? If the world’s top atheists cannot even agree on this issue, then I think it is fair to regard them as a house divided. And a house divided against itself cannot stand, as Abraham Lincoln remarked (quoting Matthew 12:25) in a famous speech he delivered on June 16, 1858.

The inability of the world’s leading atheists to agree on such a simple moral question is big news. I think readers of this blog are entitled to hear about that.

Evidence, please?

I hear some of my readers asking, “So where’s your evidence that the world’s top atheists disagree on this issue?” I’m very happy to oblige. Here goes.

In a recent post, I invited the world’s 25 most influential living atheists to respond to a short quiz on the moral status of newborn babies. To make sure that they knew about the quiz, I contacted as many of them as I could (i.e. nearly all of them) by email. Three atheists (Professor Peter Atkins, Dr. Richard Carrier and Dr. Michael Shermer) were kind enough to respond to my quiz. Another (James Randi) declined to respond, on the grounds that his answers would be too lengthy, but at least he was polite enough to answer my email. Six more atheists (Professor P. Z. Myers, Professor Peter Singer, Professor Steven Pinker – see also here and here, – Professor Daniel Dennett, Professor Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens) had already made their views plain, in a public forum, so I was able to identify how they would have responded. Unfortunately, I was not able to ascertain the views of Sam Harris, Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg, Paul Kurtz, Lawrence Krauss, Edward O. Wilson, Jennifer Michael Hecht, John Brockman, Philip Pullman, Barbara Forrest, David Sloan Wilson, Ray Kurzweil, William B. (“Will”) Provine, Kai Nielsen and Susan Blackmore. I was pleased, however, that I had managed to find out how nine of the 25 most influential living atheists viewed the moral status of newborn babies.

There were five questions in my short quiz. One regular reader and commenter on Uncommon Descent, markf, remarked on his blog that “the response to the last question is the only interesting one.” He was right, and I’m going to focus on this question in this post. The last question on my quiz was:

Do you believe that killing a newborn baby is just as wrong as killing an adult?

I soon discovered that the world’s 25 most influential living atheists are divided on this question. To his credit, Dr. Michael Shermer answered with a straight “Yes.” Professor Peter Atkins answered with a qualified “Yes,” adding that if the baby were irrevocably damaged in some way, he would modify his response. And on the basis of statements he has made on Youtube, I was able to ascertain that Christopher Hitchens would answer my question with an emphatic “Yes.”

Dr. Richard Carrier, on the other hand, answered “No,” and carefully explained his reasons. Although he believes newborn babies are persons with a right to life, he also believes that the moral worth of an adult is generally greater than that of a newborn baby; hence killing a baby isn’t as bad as killing an adult. Carrier doesn’t believe that all human beings are equal; rather, he believes that human beings occupy different points on a scale of moral worth. Three other atheists who did not respond (Professor P. Z. Myers (see here for a recent post of his, here for one reader’s comment on the post and here for P. Z. Myers’ reply), Professor Peter Singer, and Professor Daniel Dennett) have already made it clear in their published writings that they don’t even regard newborn babies as persons, let alone as individuals whose moral worth is equal to that of adults. Obviously, these atheists would answer “No” to my question. Professor Steve Pinker has published an article (“Why they kill their newborns”, The New York Yimes, November 2, 1997) in which he appears to suggest that he doesn’t regard newborn babies as persons, although he opposes the legalization of infanticide. However, he is quite up-front about one thing: he doesn’t think that killing a newborn baby is a crime of the same gravity of killing an adult. (See here, here and here for a discussion.) Finally, I was able to ascertain from Professor Richard Dawkins’ book, The God Delusion (Boston & New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006), that he regards individuals with highly developed nervous systems as having a greater moral worth than individuals with poorly developed nervous systems, because the former are capable of much greater suffering than the latter. As Dawkins puts it in his discussion of abortion:

A consequentialist or utilitarian is likely to approach the abortion question in a very different way, by trying to weigh up suffering. Does the embryo suffer? (Presumably not if it is aborted before it has a nervous system; and even if it is old enough to have a nervous system it surely suffers less than, say, an adult cow in a slaughterhouse.) Does the pregnant woman, or her family, suffer if she does not have an abortion? Very possibly so; and, in any case, given that the embryo lacks a nervous system, shouldn’t the mother’s well-developed nervous system have the choice?

But since a newborn baby’s nervous system is also far less developed than an adult’s, it follows that on Professor Dawkins’ view, killing a newborn baby is not as bad as killing an adult.

That makes three of the world’s 25 most influential atheists who believe that killing a newborn baby is just as wrong as killing an adult, and six of these atheists who don’t think it is. Unfortunately, I was unable to ascertain the opinions of the remaining sixteen atheists, on this vital ethical question. However, the big split in opinion on such a basic moral issue highlights the fact that on ethical matters, the world’s leading atheists are a house divided.

This prompts me to ask: if the world’s top atheists cannot even agree on this issue, how much confidence can we have in their repeated assertion that “naturalistic ethics” can deliver “goodness without God”?

Blowing smoke

Now that I’ve exposed the ethical disunity of the world’s leading atheists, I expect one of them will respond with a withering attack on my allegedly “simplistic” approach to ethics. We’ll doubtless be subjected to a long lecture about the hardships faced by our ancestors, about how difficult it was for mothers to simultaneously nurse two children in pre-industrial societies, and about how these mothers often had to make painful choices about which child to feed and which to let die. (All perfectly true, but completely irrelevant to the ethical point at issue, which is: do babies matter just as much as the rest of us do?) The “history lecture” will then be followed by a self-righteous tirade against “absolutist” ethics, with its high-falutin’ talk of “persons,” “rights,” “duties” and “moral worth.” Morality, we will be told, is always context-dependent, and there are no black-and-white answers to moral questions. (Now that’s a self-refuting assertion if ever I heard one.)

To my readers, I would like to say: don’t be fooled. All of this is nothing but an exercise in blowing smoke. It reflects the desperation of the world’s leading atheists to cover up the embarrassing fact that they cannot even agree on a simple ethical question: do newborn babies matter as much as the rest of us? Or putting it another way: is killing a newborn baby just as wrong as killing any other member of the community?

Now, I realize that there are some people who would reject the foregoing questions as meaningless. These people tend to have an instinctive distrust of abstract ethical reasoning, and they will stoutly maintain that moral questions can only be answered in relation to a particular time, place and circumstance. So here’s my answer to them. You want a concrete moral situation? Fine. I’ll give you one.

A tale of two killers

A man (let’s call him Smith) with an automatic weapon walks into a hospital maternity ward and kills the nurse on duty, before being wrestled to the ground by two alert, courageous bystanders. At the same time, in a nearby town, another man (let’s call him Jones) with an identical automatic weapon walks into a hospital maternity ward and kills a newborn baby, before being wrestled to the ground. Both men are put on trial, and both of them are declared sane and capable of distinguishing right from wrong, at the time of the killings. Should both receive the same punishment?

We know how nine of the 25 most influential living atheists would answer this question. Three would say yes, and six would say no. Six of these atheists would regard the nurse as having a greater moral worth than the newborn baby; hence they would say that the gravity of Smith’s offense is greater than that of Jones. Only three atheists (out of the nine whose views I was able to identify) would correctly answer that Smith and Jones should be punished in the same way.

Six of the world’s most influential atheists would give Jones a lighter punishment than Smith. I have to say that I find that scandalous. I will continue to call these six atheists out on this one, because their position is morally odious.

A short note on the practice of infanticide in human history

Let me add that I am quite aware of the reasons why infanticide was practiced in pre-industrial societies, and why it continues to be practiced in some societies today. (Readers might like to have a look at this article, and also here and here.) I have no wish to pass judgment on mothers in times past, who were faced with conflicting obligations about which child they should feed, or mothers who were unable to take proper care of their babies without jeopardizing the lives of other people in their community. But the fact that these mothers had to make difficult choices about their babies, in extreme situations, doesn’t imply that they believed that the babies they killed were any less important, morally speaking, than the adults in their community. All it shows is that these adults were not able to take care of the newborn babies, owing to the extreme poverty of their community. The same goes for hunter-gatherer communities that were sometimes forced to abandon elderly people whom they were no longer able to take care of, because they were unable to keep up with the rest of the tribe. Nobody in these communities attempted to rationalize the practice by saying that old folk are “less important” than young people; the community was simply unable to take care of them, that’s all.

Other cases of infanticide simply reflect long-standing cultural prejudices against women. I have no sympathy with communities that engage in the barbaric practice of female infanticide, which remains widespread in India and China (see here and here). Why? Because I know of other cultures, which eventually managed to eradicate this vile practice: first, the Jews in ancient Israel (Leviticus 18:21; Deuteronomy 18:10-13; Psalm 106:35-40), and later on, the Christians in Europe (see here, here and here) and the Muslims in the Arab world (see here). If they could do it, then I have to ask: why can’t India and China? So yes, I do condemn the people who perpetuate the practice of child murder in these countries: furious fathers who were hoping for a son, elderly matriarchs who pressure young mothers into killing their baby girls because they were once told by their husbands to do the same thing, and yes, also the weak, acquiescing mothers who kill their baby girls because they’re afraid of being shunned, humiliated or beaten up. The acquiescence of these mothers is understandable, but it’s still morally wrong. There are some injustices you have to stand up to, because if you don’t, then who will?

A woman’s fear of having an illegitimate birth exposed is another common reason for the occurrence of infanticide in history. Again, while we can certainly understand the action of a mother who kills her newborn child in such circumstances, that does not make it right. Someone has to eventually stand up and fight an unjust social system which victimizes illegitimate mothers, while letting the fathers get off scot-free.

Finally, the silliest historical reason for the practice of infanticide was a religious one: some ancient societies condoned and even mandated child sacrifice as a way of placating the gods. And now ask yourself this: if you had lived in those times, and you wanted to uproot this barbarous practice, do you think that you could have done so if you were also on the record as publicly affirming, as many modern atheists do, that babies don’t matter as much as adults? Would you not stand a much better chance if you were armed with a prophetic warning from an angry God, who claimed to be the one true God, and who (i) asserted that children and adults alike were made in His image and likeness, (ii) declared the practice of child sacrifice to be a detestable abomination, and (iii) commanded the destruction of altars dedicated to the false gods whose priests demanded this sacrifice?

Religion has been responsible for many abuses in human history, but atheism is a totally ineffective way to combat these abuses. Only a good religion can displace the harmful practices of a bad religion.

In my next post, I shall argue that key concepts invoked by Intelligent Design can help us to understand precisely why all human beings – from embryos to Einstein – are of equal moral worth.

Comments
So markf, I just don't get your position that you have chosen to defend. i.e No matter how egregious the violation to evidence, reason and logic, the atheistic/materialistic worldview is shown to be, you could care less. Yet on the other hand no matter how contrived and imagined the evidence is against the Christian/logos worldview you cling to this with all your might, steadfastly ignoring the thorough defense that is patiently presented to you by kf, StephenB and others. Why do you refuse to be honest with the evidence? But more importantly why do you refuse to be honest with yourself? The consequences you set yourself up for, with such shallow deception to yourself, for you are certainly not deceiving kf, or StephenB, are far greater than you can possibly imagine right now. Which is a point I am sure to why such patience is extended to your unreasonableness by kf, StephenB and others,,,bornagain77
January 25, 2011
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F/N: A further corrective. Re MF @ 25, the relevant form of atheism we need to address is evolutionary materialism, often imposed nowadays in the name of "science" -- typically through the backdoor of methodological naturalism and implicit a priori materialism -- and its radical relativism, amorality and tendency to abusive, domineering factions were noted as long ago as Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 360 BC: __________________ >> Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them. >> ___________________ Grim, but sadly apt. This, we must not forget. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 25, 2011
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Onlookers: A corrective re an atmosphere-poisoning suggestion by MarkF,22:
There are many leading Christians who have argued that other races are inferior to white men and that Kings rule over us by divine right.
Individuals who are Christians doubtless have taught many things that were and are patently wrong. In this case, the matter is a question of [on the part of leading persons] willful ignoring and/or distortion of quite explicit biblical teachings, Old and New Testament. Of these, the following two texts are classic corrections of any tendency to racism, and show how Dr Torley is fundamentally right and responsive on the key issue:
AC 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 `For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.' GAL 3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe [= penitently trust in God] are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles [ethne = nations, i.e. people groups] by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith . . . . 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law [i.e. that those who fail to live up to the standard of right are under its penalty, so our only hope is God's mercy and forgiveness] by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles [ethne -- nations/ people-groups or tribes/clans] through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit . . . . GAL 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
These are not obscure texts, or particularly hard to understand: _____________ 1: we are all descendants of one father [and mother, Eve is "the mother of all living"]; now a scientific fact too, so the whole human race -- the best use of that word -- is one family. 2: God equally cares for us all, so much so that he has provided space for us and a common means of and call to redemption. 3: The blessing of Abraham, in Christ, is open to ANY people group that will receive it. So, British Israelism and extensions thereof are utterly misdirected. The issue is whether we have the faith of Abraham, thus are of his spiritual seed, not whether we are physically descended from him. (And descent from Abraham is interesting: about 10% of Jamaicans are of some Jewish ancestry!) 4: In Christ, no distinctives come before that unity, whether of race, or of sex or of social status. (And BTW, Paul's counsel to slaves was to not make it trouble you unduly but if you can get out, do so.) 5: In Christ, we are of the seed and blessing of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise. Christians are meant to be blessed and a blessing to the world, which -- despite the inevitable struggles to know, accept and consistently do the right -- a great many have proved to be across these 2,000 years. 6: In Rom 13, Paul teaches [cf here] that civil authorities are God's servants to do us good, especially by defending the civil peace of justice, and so are due submission and taxes. 7: But (cf here) that kings are such is one facet of that is one aspect of the whole: ALL civil authorities down to the Magistrate in court or the teacher in the classroom and the policeman on the beat, hold the same basic remit from and accountability before God. 8: They are due honour and respect, and should be obeyed in the usual course. The exception being, where they have manifestly set out on rebellion against the remit of justice under God, and so peaceful civil protest and remonstrance are the first level of correction, on many Biblical examples and teachings elaborated in the already linked. Ac 5:29 -- from the mouth of the apostles answering to their civil and religious authorities (including a hereditary High Priest of de facto royal rank since the Hasmoneans) -- is plain: "we must obey God, rather than men!" 9: Beyond that, the Reformers correctly saw that the scriptures taught the interposition of lower magistrates as equally called under God to do good, reward the good and defend the civil peace of justice from wrong-doers; and so a more formal level of remonstrance and then if necessary reformation or replacement of authorities irretrievably gone bad, are also warranted. 10: So, those who absolutised the status of kings were in demonstrable error, which was in fact pointed out at the time, e.g. most notably by Samuel Rutherford in response to Maxwell in his Lex, Rex. (This work is a key behind the scenes influence on Locke's work on civil government and liberty. We have already seen how Hooker was an explicit influence.) __________________ So, those Christians who have taught racism, are plainly afoul of the many warnings against scripture twisting or scripture-ignoring. Christians may have disagreed with the explicit teachings of the scriptures, but they have been corrected from within its resources, from foundational principles and examples. For, the Judaeo-Christin view holds that truth is objective, that conscience reflects the candle of the Lord within, and that the scriptures aptly answer to both. By sharpest contrast, we have repeatedly seen how evolutionary materialism undermines the credibility of mind to know beyond perceptions shaped decisively by forces of chance and necessity, and leads to an amorality that reduces to Plato's warned against: the highest right is might. Markf usually pointedly ignores whatever I write, but that does not prevent the rest of us from duly noting the corrective facts. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 25, 2011
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Stephenb I can’t resist responding to this – although it is a bit of a digression.
I would go one step further, however, and point out that atheists ARE unified in their militancy against truth and their rejection of any kind of objective morality.
Obviously atheists disagree with you about the truth of religion. Some are militant about this – many are not. Many atheists reject objective morality – some believe in it.  Some are militant about this.  Others are not.
They are unified in what the deny and hate, not in what they affirm and love.
Atheism is not a religion, so it is true that all they have in common is they do not believe in a God, just as the only thing uniting those who do not believe in fairies is their lack of belief in fairies.  Some atheists hate religion; others do not.  I am rather fond of religion personally. Some of my dearest friends are religious and I find that an impressive and appealing part of their character.  markf
January 25, 2011
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#23 vj I am sorry but you are waffling rather than recognise the rather obvious fact that Christians also disagree about fundamental moral principles. Many (but not all) Christians may have believed that "inferior" races were all capable of going to heaven - but that did not extend to giving these races equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Why not accept that this particular argument does not hold water? You make plenty of good and interesting points.markf
January 25, 2011
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markf Thank you for your post. There have of course been Christians who believed that kings were born with the Divine right to govern their realm. But these same Christians believed that kings, like commoners, possessed immortal souls, which could be saved or damned. They also believed that former fishermen (four of the twelve apostles) would be among the greatest saints in the New Heaven and New Earth (Revelation 21:14). As for Christians in times past who were racists, I should like to point out that racism was relatively rare until the 18th century, when Linnaeus attempted to give it a scientific footing. Even those who mistakenly believed that some races were inferior in intellect did not automatically consider them inferior in moral virtue on that account. Most of these Christians would have believed that spiritually, at least, all humans were equal, and capable of attaining Heaven - otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to catechize people from other races. Human souls don't come in different grades, shapes or sizes. On the spiritual plane, there's a level playing field for human beings.vjtorley
January 24, 2011
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#20 and #21 Stephenb Leading Christians don't even agree that all men are born equal. There are many leading Christians who have argued that other races are inferior to white men and that Kings rule over us by divine right. This has extended to valuing a King's life more highly than a commoner. I am not saying such views are correct or logical - just that there has been disagreement.markf
January 24, 2011
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markf The reason why I am so certain that the man in the street regards newborn babies as morally equal to adults is that I have often witnessed how people react when they hear that the police have arrested the killer of a baby or a young child. Frequently the sentiment is along the lines of: "Good! I hope they hang the b******!" Even people who are otherwise opposed to capital punishment may say things like this. The loathing runs deep, and is universal. Newspapers frequently run mug shots of the killer on the front page, accompanied by captions like: "The face of evil." The killing of a baby or young child is generally regarded as a quintessentially evil act. Again, even in prisons, murderers who have killed babies often have to be kept under special protection, because prison wardens fear that these killers would be torn to pieces if they were allowed to mingle freely with other prisoners. In other words, people who kill babies and young children are the target of a unique and special loathing - which would make no sense if people thought that the killing of a baby was less of a crime than the killing of an adult. You mentioned contraception in one of your comments. I might remind you that popular sentiments have changed considerably during the last one or two hundred years. However, the loathing directed at baby killers has not changed for centuries, perhaps millennia. I think this is a significant fact.vjtorley
January 24, 2011
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I wrote: "[Atheists] Their unity comes not from any coherence in their own position, as VJ points out, but rather in their resolution to militate against truth. They are unified in what they deny and hate, not in what they affirm and love." I do not mean to suggest that VJT necessarily agrees with me on the second part of that statement. I should probably rewrite my comment as follows: As VJ points out, atheists have no coherent or unified sense of morality with respect to a baby's right to life. I would go one step further, however, and point out that atheists ARE unified in their militancy against truth and their rejection of any kind of objective morality. They are unified in what the deny and hate, not in what they affirm and love.StephenB
January 24, 2011
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---"I asked about theists, not Christians." You will have to be more specific. Islam, for example, does not accept the inherent dignity of the human person and may, therefore, support certain kinds of public policy that are less than humane. Islam also embraces the philosophy of "abrogation," which allows for God to change His mind about what is good or bad, revise his moral teachings, and therefore discourage any kind of rationally-based morality. Theism that is not grounded in reason or the natural moral law is quite limited in its capacity to provide moral guidance. Atheism, on the other hand, is completely bankrupt in every way.StephenB
January 24, 2011
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#16 Christians usually agree on basic ethical principles, but they sometimes disagree about the application of those principles. I asked about theists, not Christians.markf
January 24, 2011
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My uncle and aunt (devout christians) had 3 or 4 babies that were either still born or died within an hour or 2 of being born. This was after their first child who was fine. The babies were named, but I don't know the names. They don't feature in the family history. There is no doubt that they do not have the same status as adults or children who died. They never achieved personhood. There's nothing to remember them by I guess. No personality or emotional connection.zeroseven
January 24, 2011
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vjt: so you honestly think your "tale of two killers" presents anything close to an actual moral dilemma, and any of the people that answered No to your question (e) would actually give a lesser punishment to the homicidal maniac who killed the baby. Wow. That situation you concocted had absolutuely nothing in common with the actual moral dilemmas dicussed by any of the people that answered your question or that you reasonably inferred their answer for. Moreover, it seems quite clear from the thread above and the thread on which the questions originated that both you and StephenB DO NOT hold the worth of a newborn baby to be equal to the worth of a human adult either - there is a glaringly obvious gradient in value, if the default strategy when faced with being able to save only one of them is saving the baby; some people might find that just as scandalous (and have very good moral justifcations for their opinion) as you find your completely unjustified conclusion that ANYONE would punish a criminal maniac differently according to the age of the person they happened to murder in a homicidal rampage;molch
January 24, 2011
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@16. Thus, [the] moral equivalency implied in your question does not exist.StephenB
January 24, 2011
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—markf: “Nevertheless, will you grant that theists do disagree about important moral issues?” Christians usually agree on basic ethical principles, but they sometimes disagree about the application of those principles. Atheists, on the other hand, deny the very existence of the principles being applied. Thus, there moral equivalency implied in your question does not exist. VJT is correct when he argues that atheists are all over the map on the moral status of infants. In another respect, however, they are consistent in the fact that they consistently promote anti-humanistic values. Their unity comes not from any coherence in their own position, as VJ points out, but rather in their resolution to militate against truth. They are unified in what they deny and hate, not in what they affirm and love.StephenB
January 24, 2011
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Dr Torley: Perhaps, I should add to your collection of cites, this from John Locke's 2nd essay on civil gov't, Ch 2 sec 5, when he sought to ground liberty. He cites "the judicious [Richard] Hooker" from that Worthy's Ecclesiastical Polity [1594 -]:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
Locke goes on to observe, in remarks that seem very relevant to our situation:
The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions . . . . so by the like reason, when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he as much as he can to preserve the rest of mankind, and not unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another . . . . In transgressing the law of Nature, the offender declares himself to live by another rule than that of reason and common equity, which is that measure God has set to the actions of men for their mutual security [i.e. we see here the right to self-defense for the community, and also the individual, as is discussed at length in the work], and so he becomes dangerous to mankind . . . . [Ch III, S 17] he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power [i.e. to tyrannise upon another, by force, fraud, usurpation or invasion] does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it.
Sobering, in light of the history of the past 100 years. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 24, 2011
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---markf: "Nevertheless, will you grant that theists do disagree about important moral issues?" I would argue that Theists are consistently on the side of human values and that atheists are consistently on the side of anti-human values. Believing that man is made "in the image and likeness of God" will prompt one to favor public policy that supports a culture of life. Believing that man is solely the result of a "purposeless, mindless process" will prompt one to favor public policy that supports a culture of death. Hence, most Christians are pro-life, while most atheists are pro-abortion. Beliefs have consequences.StephenB
January 24, 2011
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To his credit, Dr. Michael Shermer answered with a straight “Yes.” Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Shermer used to be a Christian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_ShermerMikulas
January 24, 2011
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#11 I am not at all convinced that ordinary people regard the moral equality of babies and adults as axiomatic. I suspect most of them have never been put in a situation where they had to consider it. However, let us assume that most people do believe this. There are huge divides between the man in the street and some theological ethical opinions e.g. contraception. Should we therefore doubt the validity of theological based ethics?markf
January 24, 2011
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markf (#3) Thank you for your post. Referring to the ethical question of whether newborn babies and adults are of equal moral worth, you ask: "Why should disagreement over this rather tricky moral question reflect on the validity of atheist ethics?" The answer is that (as I stated in my reply to Neil Rickert) ordinary people regard the moral equality of babies and adults as axiomatic. It's not something they question or feel the need to question. I think there is a huge divide between the secular intelligentsia and the man in the street on this issue, and that this divide matters even more than the issue of abortion, where the average citizen's moral intuitions really are somewhat confused and inconsistent. The point of my post was to draw readers' attention to this issue.vjtorley
January 23, 2011
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Neil Rickert (#1) This post is about the moral status of babies who have already been born. I quoted from the Declaration of Independence, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, the Gettysburg Address and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as well as Dr. Martin Luther King's famous speech, because they all make reference to a man's creation or birth. Hence they are not just about adult males. In the 18th century, "all men" commonly meant everyone. Even today, we say: all men are mortal. We don't mean to suggest that women may be immortal. As for abortion: I'll address that in my next post. In this one, I'm simply concerned to argue that many atheists are fundamentally mistaken regarding a moral premise that most people would regard as self-evident. and hence not in need of justification. Hence the title of this post.vjtorley
January 23, 2011
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#8 Stephenb I apologise. I didn't realise your debate with vj had continued and you had come to some agreement. Nevertheless, will you grant that theists do disagree about important moral issues?markf
January 23, 2011
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The inability of the world’s leading atheists to agree on such a simple moral question is big news. I think readers of this blog are entitled to hear about that.
I don't see why it's "big news." Why should there be lock-step agreement on every point? Are there not important and not-easily-resolved philosophical issues that can and should be raised? I think it's a good thing that basic assumptions can be questioned and re-examined. Heck, the US Declaration has, over time, undergone revision. The "all men" at one time, as a practical reality, excluded women and black slaves. I would take once-and-for-all agreement as something to be wary of.LarTanner
January 23, 2011
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--markf to VJT: "You and Stephenb disagreed on what to do given the choice of saving a baby or an adult. Does this reflect on the validity of the assertion that God can deliver goodness?" No, we did not, in fact, disagree on the matter: --VJ to SB: "I totally agree with you that it would be immoral to forcibly throw someone off a lifeboat. The direct killing of an innocent human being is wrong." --"On the other hand, if a ship (such as the Titanic) had just capsized, and if I were in a lifeboat picking up survivors, and I could only take one more, then I would choose to save a baby over a talented artist, even if that artist were Leonardo da Vinci. I would therefore save the baby and allow the artist to die. And my judgment would not change if the artist were also a great humanitarian, like Mohandas K. Gandhi." --SB to VJ: "I take your point about the difference between picking up someone in the boat versus choosing to throw someone overboard. Given that assumption, I think I would make the same choice." Inasmuch as you are wrong about the facts in evidence, you may want to try another tactic.StephenB
January 23, 2011
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semi OT: Francis Chan On Living Eternally - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5848080bornagain77
January 23, 2011
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Since 1973 there have been 46 million abortions in the U.S. -- about 15% of the current population -- and almost all of them were done for purposes of convenience. I think this says it all concerning the morality of the issue. Some things are easily discernible, if one has eyes to see.GilDodgen
January 23, 2011
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I've always found this following video good for clearly illustrating the 'moral dilemma' of a atheist. At least the moral dilemma of a atheist who lives consistently within his worldview: Cruel Logic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qd1LPRJLnI this is of related interest: Will Provine on EXPELLED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpJ5dHtmNtUbornagain77
January 23, 2011
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Why should disagreement over this rather tricky moral question reflect on the validity of atheist ethics?
Because atheists have bloviated unceasingly about how inferior theists are from an ethical and psychological point of view, and that if atheist ethics were followed we'd finally be living in a rational paradise?Matteo
January 23, 2011
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if the world’s top atheists cannot even agree on this issue, how much confidence can we have in their repeated assertion that “naturalistic ethics” can deliver “goodness without God”? Why should disagreement over this rather tricky moral question reflect on the validity of atheist ethics? Theists frequently disagree on important ethical questions. You and Stephenb disagreed on what to do given the choice of saving a baby or an adult. Does this reflect on the validity of the assertion that God can deliver goodness?markf
January 23, 2011
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You're right, Neil. The same mentality that would deny equality to women and minorities is at play with denying equality to infants and the unborn. Good eye!nullasalus
January 23, 2011
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