Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

What Elizabeth Liddle doesn’t understand about the Cambrian explosion

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Yesterday, I posted A succinct case for Intelligent Design, which featured a 123-word critique of unguided mechanisms for evolution – in particular, neo-Darwinism – as an explanation for the genes, proteins and different kinds of body plans found in living things. The passage, which was taken from Dr. Stephen C. Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt (Harper One, 2013), read as follows:

“This book has presented four separate scientific critiques demonstrating the inadequacy of the neo-Darwinian mechanism, the mechanism that Dawkins assumes can produce the appearance of design without intelligent guidance. It has shown that the neo-Darwinian mechanism fails to account for the origin of genetic information because: (1) it has no means of efficiently searching combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins and, consequently, (2) it requires unrealistically long waiting times to generate even a single new gene or protein. It has also shown that the mechanism cannot produce new body plans because: (3) early acting mutations, the only kind capable of generating large-scale changes, are also invariably deleterious, and (4) genetic mutations cannot, in any case, generate the epigenetic information necessary to build a body plan.” (pp. 410-411)

I also quoted Dr. Meyer as pointing out that unguided processes could not account for the origin of life, since “explaining the origin of life requires – first and foremost – explaining the origin of the information or digital code present in DNA and RNA,” and contemporary naturalistic theories of life’s origin “fail to account for the origin of the genetic information necessary to produce the first selfreplicating organism.” I then posed a challenge to skeptical readers: how would you attempt to rebut Dr. Meyer’s case, in 200 words or less?

Various critics objected that my brief quote from Dr. Meyer failed to explain why Intelligent Design was a better alternative. However, a commenter named Mung helpfully supplied the following quote from Darwin’s Doubt:

…[E]ach of the features of the Cambrian animals and the Cambrian fossil record that constitute negative clues – clues that render neo-Darwinism and other materialistic theories inadequate as causal explanations – also happen to be features of systems known from experience to have arisen as the result of intelligent activity. In other words, standard materialistic evolutionary theories have failed to identify an adequate mechanism or cause for precisely those attributes of living forms that we know from experience only intelligence – conscious rational activity – is capable of producing. That suggests, in accord with the method of historical scientific reasoning elucidated in the previous chapter, the possibility of making a strong historical inference to intelligent design as the best explanation for the origin of those attributes. (p. 358)

Much to my astonishment, not one of the skeptics commenting on my thread took up my challenge, which was: how would you attempt to rebut Dr. Meyer’s case, in 200 words or less?

One commenter, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, supplied a handy summary of Darwin’s evolutionary theory: “When self-replicators reproduce with heritable variance in reproductive success, variants that reproduce most successfully will become more prevalent”. She added that “we now know that variants can also become highly prevalent even if they do not contribute to reproductive success, and this actually makes Darwin’s mechanism even more successful, because not every variant needs to be reproductively more successful than the competition to stand a chance of propagating through the gene pool.” All well and good; but it completely fails to address my challenge. How, according to modern evolutionary theory, did the functional genes and proteins found in modern organisms evolve within the time available, and how did new body plans evolve, despite the observed inability of mutations to generate viable large-scale developmental changes, let alone epigenetic information?

Dr. Liddle, who is a psychologist but not a biologist, then launched an ad hominem attack on Dr. Meyer, declaring: “His understanding of evolutionary theory is weak, and actual evolutionary theory is a better alternative.” Barry Arrington then put up a post citing testimonials of well-credentialed biologists who praised Dr. Meyer’s book – a book which, I should add, was anonymously reviewed by two biologists and two paleontologists. No science book is altogether free from error, but we can safely assume that the likelihood of there being any scientific howlers in Darwin’s Doubt is negligible.

Dr. Liddle responded by citing a post of her own, over at The Skeptical Zone, in which she had previously exposed what she referred to as Meyer’s mistake. So I decided to read it. And after reading it, my verdict is: in all fairness, Dr. Liddle’s technical criticisms of three phylogenetic diagrams in Dr. Meyer’s book are valid ones; however, Dr. Liddle has a very poor grasp of the conundrum posed by the Cambrian explosion – much poorer, I might add, than Darwin’s was, in 1859.

Dr. Liddle’s error

Dr. Liddle reveals her faulty understanding of Dr. Meyer’s argument (and of the Cambrian explosion) when she writes (bolding is mine – VJT):

All branching events, in Darwin’s proposal, whether the resulting lineages end up as different phyla or merely different species, start in the same way, with two populations where there once was one, and a short morphological distance between them. It is perfectly true that the longer both lineages persist for, the greater the morphological distance will become. But that isn’t because they started different, or because the phyla come later. It’s because what we call phyla are groups of organisms with an early common ancestor, whose later descendents have evolved to form a group that has a large morphological distance from contemporary populations who descended from a different early common ancestor.

So when a phylum, or a class, or even a kingdom first diverges from a single population into two lineages, the “morphological distance” from the other lineage will be very short. We only call it a “phylum” because eventually, owning to separate evolution, that distance becomes very large.

In boxing circles, that’s what’s called leading with your chin. For my part, I’m no pugilist, unless one wishes to describe verbal sparring as boxing; but I can spot an incautious remark when I see one.

The simple point that Dr. Liddle fails to grasp is that the morphological distance between the various animal phyla hasn’t grown with time. It was just as big 520 million years ago as it is today. The really big morphological changes occurred right at the beginning, and the changes that occurred after that were specializations within each phylum which did not in any way increase the morphological distance between the various phyla. Arthropods and chordates were just as morphologically distinct 500 million years ago as they are now. Certainly, new classes of arthropods and chordates have appeared since then, but the changes that subsequently occurred in the body plans of various arthropod and chordate lineages are far more modest than the sharp differences we find between the different phyla. That is why the Cambrian explosion constitutes such a conundrum for paleontologists. And that is why Darwin felt he could only get round the conundrum by hypothesizing that the various phyla of animals had in fact diverged at a much earlier date, when (he believed) the morphological differences between them would have been much smaller.

Think I’m making this up? Allow me to quote a few experts. (Bolding is mine – VJT.)

The fossil record suggests that the major pulse of diversification of phyla occurs before that of classes, classes before that of orders, and orders before families. This is not to say that each higher taxon originated before species (each phylum, class, or order contained at least one species, genus, family, etc. upon appearance), but the higher taxa do not seem to have diverged through an accumulation of lower taxa.
Erwin, D., Valentine, J., and Sepkoski, J. (1988). “A Comparative Study of Diversification Events.” Evolution, vol. 41, p. 1183.

Described recently as “the most important evolutionary event during the entire history of the Metazoa,” the Cambrian explosion established virtually all the major animal body forms — Bauplane or phyla — that would exist thereafter, including many that were ‘weeded out’ and became extinct. Compared with the 30 or so extant phyla, some people estimate that the Cambrian explosion may have generated as many as 100. The evolutionary innovation of the Precambrian/Cambrian boundary had clearly been extremely broad: “unprecedented and unsurpassed,” as James Valentine of the University of California, Santa Barbara, recently put it.
(Lewin, Roger; “A Lopsided Look at Evolution,” Science, 241:201, 1988.)

This disquieting discovery led Lewin to muse aloud:

“Why, in subsequent periods of great evolutionary activity when countless species, genera, and families arose, have there been no new animal body plans produced, no new phyla?

And here’s a quote from Valentine et al., to cap it all:

Taxa recognized as orders during the (Precambrian-Cambrian) transition chiefly appear without connection to an ancestral clade via a fossil intermediate. This situation is in fact true of most invertebrate orders during the remaining Phanerozoic as well. There are no chains of taxa leading gradually from an ancestral condition to the new ordinal body type. Orders thus appear as rather distinctive subdivisions of classes rather than as being segments in some sort of morphological continuum.
Valentine, J.W., Awramik, S.M., Signor, P.W., and Sadler, P.M. (1991) “The Biological Explosion at the Precambrian-Cambrian Boundary.” Evolutionary Biology, Vol. 25, Max K. Hecht, editor, Plenum Press, New York and London, p.284.

In their most recent book, The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity (Roberts and Company, 2013), Douglas Erwin and Jim Valentine freely acknowledge that the stark differences between the phyla that appear over a 10-million-year interval during the Cambrian period make it difficult to even imagine what the last common ancestor (“LCA”) would have looked like:

To be sure, all pairs of crown phyla had common ancestors; as far as we know, however, none of those bilaterian LCAs had features that would cause them to be diagnosed as members of living phyla, although that could be the case in a few instances. In other words, the morphological distances — gaps — between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since. The morphological disparity is so great between most phyla that the homologous reference points or landmarks required for quantitative studies of morphology are absent. (p. 340)

If highly respected experts in the field acknowledge the stark differences between the various animal phyla from their very first appearance, and if these same experts are genuinely perplexed as to why no new phyla have appeared since the Cambrian, then we can be sure that Dr. Liddle’s breezy assertion that the reason why no new phyla have appeared since then is that not enough time has elapsed rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of how evolution works, at the morphological level. Dr. Liddle evidently believes that the morphological differences between taxa are a simple function of time: groups which diverged a mere 10 million years ago might be classified as different genera, while groups which diverged 100 million years ago would probably be classified into different classes, and groups that diverged 500 million years ago would be classed as different phyla. As she writes: “We only call it a ‘phylum’ because eventually, owning to separate evolution, that distance becomes very large.” For Liddle, the statement that any two animal phyla diverged at least 500 million years ago is trivially true: if they had diverged more recently, we wouldn’t call them phyla, but classes, orders, families, genera or species, depending on the time when they diverged.

Now, if fossils were classified into different taxa purely on the basis of the (mostly random) changes that have accumulated in their genomes over millions of years, then Dr. Liddle would be correct. But that’s not how we classify fossils, because we don’t have their genomes. DNA has a half-life of just 521 years. When classifying fossils into different phyla, scientists have no choice but to go by their morphological characteristics. What Dr. Liddle overlooks is that even if most genetic changes accumulate at a slow and relatively steady pace, it doesn’t follow that morphological changes do. Nor does it follow that epigenetic changes accumulate in this way.

The sudden appearance of new animal body plans during a narrow window comprising a mere 1/1,000 of the Earth’s geological history is a non-trivial fact, when contemporary evolutionary biologists continue to find deeply puzzling. Charles Darwin did too, for he wrote:

“I cannot doubt that all the Silurian trilobites have descended from some one crustacean, which must have lived long before the Silurian age….Consequently, if my theory be true, it is indisputable that before the lowest Silurian strata was deposited, long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably longer than, the whole interval from the Silurian to the present day…..The case must at present remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained.”
The Origin of Species. 1859. London: John Murray. 1st edition, pp. 306 – 308.

(I should point out that at the time when Darwin wrote, the strata that we now call Cambrian were classified as belonging to the Silurian period.)

Darwin ascribed the Cambrian explosion to imperfections in the fossil record. Today, we know better. Darwin was an intellectually honest scientist; his Origin of Species contains several chapters devoted to rebutting the scientific difficulties in connection with his theory. One wonders what Darwin would have concluded, if he had known then what we know now.

I hope that fair-minded readers will conclude that Dr. Liddle has fundamentally misunderstood the argument Dr. Stephen Meyer was making in his book, Darwin’s Doubt.

Comments
vjtorley: In other words, the morphological distances — gaps — between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since. That assumes that hagfish and humans, both from the phylum chordata, have the same body plan. In any case, not only does the molecular evidence argue against that statement, but Kimberella represents a primitive triploblastic bilaterian from the precambrian, probably a protostome, meaning that deuterostomes and protostomes had already split by that period.Zachriel
May 11, 2015
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Barry @ 2:
Elizabeth Liddle also has problems keeping track of the sewage she spills into the UD combox, sometimes contradicting herself in the same thread: EXHIBIT A: EL @ comment 10 of prior post:
But he [i.e., Meyer] is no palaeontologist, and apparently doesn’t see that as a problem. It is though . . .
EL @ comment 43 of same post:
I do not criticise Meyer because he is not a qualified palaeontologist. I don’t even criticise him because he, not being a qualified palaeontologist, writes a book on the palaeontology.
Elizabeth responds:
Barry, those two statements are perfectly consistent. Read them again.
Barry replies to Elizabeth:
OK; I read them again, including what followed each. In the first you criticized Meyer for not being palaeontologist. In the second you claim you never criticized Meyer for not being a palaeontologist. And in this comment you claim those two statements are “perfectly consistent.” Lizzie, get help.
Elizabeth's last word:
I’m outta here.
Barry's helpful translation from Darwinese: "I got caught. Then I got caught again when I doubled down. I will never admit I was wrong to do what I did, but it is too embarrassing to stay. I will slink back over to my echo chamber where they will cheer me on no matter what I say, even if it contradicts something I just said.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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Box (quoting): The phyla constitute the highest (or widest) categories of biological classification in the animal kingdom, with each exhibiting a unique architecture, organizational blueprint, or structural body plan. Except for those higher and wider categories. Above the phylum chordata, we have the superphylum deuterostomia, the unranked bilateria, and the subkingdom eumetazoa. Of course, there are many other unranked divisions, as expected from a branching process. Box (quoting): Advocates of modern phylogenetic classification argue that the traditional classification system lacks objective criteria by which to decide whether a certain group of organisms should be assigned a particular rank of, for example, phylum or class or order. There's nothing wrong with using the traditional nomenclature, as long as one realizes the ranking is somewhat arbitrary.Zachriel
May 11, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
On the other hand if you are actually interested in the vast body of knowledge and theory, underpinned by a vast body of data, then at least make an effort to listen when people try to explain some of the basics.
For such a simple theory. Really?Mung
May 11, 2015
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vjtorley:
In other words, the morphological distances — gaps — between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since.
Why do I not see anybody in the Darwinist camp attempt to refute vjtorley's argument? Here's my opinion. It is a devastating argument from a master debater. It is a merciless knockout blow from an accomplished "pugilist". I have to avert my eyes. It's too painful to watch. :-DMapou
May 11, 2015
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There are major differences between phyla at the very beginning. That’s why they call them phyla Z.
hehehe. But Barry, if we had been alive back then we would not have called them phyla, we would have called them species. Actually, no. The anti Darwin's Doubt crown fails again. If we had been around back then, faced with the evidence, there would not have been any theory of evolution. lolMung
May 11, 2015
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Stephen Meyer on "phyla":
The term “phyla” (singular: “phylum”) refers to divisions in the biological classification system. The phyla constitute the highest (or widest) categories of biological classification in the animal kingdom, with each exhibiting a unique architecture, organizational blueprint, or structural body plan. Familiar examples of phyla are cnidarians (corals and jellyfish), mollusks (squid and clams), echinoderms (sea stars and sea urchins), arthropods (trilobites and insects), and the chordates, to which all vertebrates including humans belong. The animals within each phylum exhibit distinguishing features that enable taxonomists to divide and group them further into other, progressively smaller divisions, beginning with classes and orders, and eventually coming to families, genera, and individual species. The broadest and highest categories within the animal kingdom—such as phyla and classes—designate the major categories of animal life, typically designating unique body plans. Lower taxonomic categories—like genus and species—designate smaller degrees of difference among organisms that typically exemplify similar overall ways of organizing their body parts and structures. Throughout the book I will use these conventional categories of classification, as do most Cambrian paleontologists. Nevertheless, I am aware that some paleontologists and systematists (experts in classification) today prefer “phylogenetic classification,” a method that often uses a “rank-free” classification scheme.6 Advocates of modern phylogenetic classification argue that the traditional classification system lacks objective criteria by which to decide whether a certain group of organisms should be assigned a particular rank of, for example, phylum or class or order.7 Proponents of rank-free classification attempt to eliminate subjectivity in classification (and ranking) by grouping together animals that are thought, based upon studies of similar molecules in different groups, to share a common ancestor. This method of classification treats groups that emerge at roughly the same time on the tree of life as equivalent. Nevertheless, even proponents of phylogenetic classification often use the conventional taxonomic categories in their technical discussions of specific organisms because of their common scientific usage. So despite my own sympathy with some of the concerns of rank-free advocates (see below), I have chosen to do the same. [S.Meyer, DD, Ch.2]
Box
May 11, 2015
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EL
ID has a perfectly good project. It would be fascinating to find that Nature was guided by a Mind. But you won’t find that it is by refusing to take the science of evolution seriously, and Meyer won’t do it by failing to get some basic palaeontology right. And it won’t be found on UD if, having invited people to write guest posts putting an alternative point of view, you then delete their entire user record, including all their posts, without explanation. I’m outta here.
Apparently, you don't think Meyer takes evolution seriously. There are a number of scientists who have said otherwise. In any case, I think the door is open if you want to return.Silver Asiatic
May 11, 2015
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Stephen B: Barry is not presenting an “ad-hominem argument.” His harsh rebuke is a response to an irrational and frustrating attempt to avoid argument. "I tried very hard. It is difficult to know whether you are too stupid to understand the issue, or if you understand it well enough and deflect nevertheless."velikovskys
May 11, 2015
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Elizabeth, Congratulations! If they bother to name a thread after you, that is a great complement to you, no matter how dark their comments get. sean s.sean samis
May 11, 2015
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Reciprocating Bill
At any rate, Barry, your contention is grossly hypocritical, as your responses often resort to insults and personal characterizations.
I will be happy to explain why this is not the case. Barry is not presenting an "ad-hominem argument." His harsh rebuke is a response to an irrational and frustrating attempt to avoid argument. It is not meant to suffice as or substitute for an argument. By contrast, an ad-hominem argument is one that is based on a personal attack.StephenB
May 11, 2015
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Reciprocating Bill: No need. You’re doing all the work for me.
Translation: I've got nothing.Box
May 11, 2015
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Barry:
Try harder Bill.
No need. You're doing all the work for me.Reciprocating Bill
May 11, 2015
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Bill at 29. Again, you don't seem to know what "ad hominem" means. In the comment you quote I am not attacking Zachriel's argument. I am not making a counter argument of any kind. I am observing that he is a fool and that it is therefore pointless to argue with him. Try harder Bill.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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Liddle:
Such as the absolutely basic point that groupings like “phyla” and “family” etc, are, in fact arbitrary.
That statement proves that you do not know what "arbitrary" means or you do not know what "phyla" means, or both. Based on my history with you it would be pointless to try to educate you. I am content with the record as it stands. For example, you think you can get away with saying mutually exclusive things in the same thread. See above. The readers can judge whether any assertion you make is credible.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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Barry is worried about ad hominem attacks. I noted:
At any rate, Barry, your contention is grossly hypocritical, as your responses often resort to insults and personal characterizations.
As if on cue, Barry says to Zachriel:
There has been some benefit from the discussion. You are living proof that even though certain advice was given 3,000 years ago, it remains vitally relevant to this day:
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 26:4 I would put it in more earthy terms:
Once a person has shown you his ass, turn away unless you want to see more of his ass.
Reciprocating Bill
May 11, 2015
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Barry:
Statements like this “Phyla are a rather arbitrary distinction in terms of evolution” make it clear that you have no interest in a rational discussion.
Frankly, Barry, the fact that you think so rather make it clear that you are not. If IDists want to poke sticks at an over-simplified toy model of evolution that is not just over-simple, but plain wrong in many respects, then they are welcome, but they shouldn't then expect their critiques to be taken seriously. On the other hand if you are actually interested in the vast body of knowledge and theory, underpinned by a vast body of data, then at least make an effort to listen when people try to explain some of the basics. Such as the absolutely basic point that groupings like "phyla" and "family" etc, are, in fact arbitrary. IF the data form a tree (and they do) and IF that tree is the result of populations branching off from other populations constant, which is what you'd expect under Common Descent and which the data support, and IF some of those branches go extinct quite quickly while other diversify hugely and are extant today, THEN, deciding to call a particular set of branches "phyla" is, indeed, arbitrary. Think of an actual tree - say an oak. If there is a fork at 5 feet, and one of those branches forms another fork 3 feet further up, while the other forms a fork 6 feet further up, are they all "phyla"? Are the first three "phyla"? Or only the first two? Because that's the pattern of data we observe (using phylogenetics) and that's what Common Descent predicts: continuous change, and constant branching. ID has a perfectly good project. It would be fascinating to find that Nature was guided by a Mind. But you won't find that it is by refusing to take the science of evolution seriously, and Meyer won't do it by failing to get some basic palaeontology right. And it won't be found on UD if, having invited people to write guest posts putting an alternative point of view, you then delete their entire user record, including all their posts, without explanation. I'm outta here.Elizabeth Liddle
May 11, 2015
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Z @ 25. Once it has become clear that you have no interest in a good faith discussion, it would be foolish to continue it. This discussion is closed. There has been some benefit from the discussion. You are living proof that even though certain advice was given 3,000 years ago, it remains vitally relevant to this day:
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 26:4 I would put it in more earthy terms:
Once a person has shown you his ass, turn away unless you want to see more of his ass.
Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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Without delving on the points and tactics above, AmHD: >>char·ac·ter (k?r??k-t?r) n. 1. a. The combination of mental characteristics and behavior that distinguishes a person or group. See Synonyms at disposition.>> Character includes then things like qualifications and other important circumstances of life and mind. In the case of Dr Meyer, he is not a paleontologist but is qualified as a philosopher of science specialising in origins and with linked knowledge of the history of science. To dismissively say to/of such he is not a paleontologist is to disparage the man and his relevant qualifications. To attack the man rather than address the merits of the case is to be irrelevant, and it is clearly an ad hominem. KFkairosfocus
May 11, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Seriously. That's easy to resolve. Please provide a scientific definition of phylum for the purpose of this discussion.Zachriel
May 11, 2015
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Phylogenetically, a phylum is an arbitrary grouping.
Stop it Z. Seriously. It is embarrassing.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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Barry:
[An Ad hominem attack] consists of any attack on the other person instead of the argument he made. It is not limited to attacks on character.
Most definitions refer to character. A few do not. Wikipedia: "Responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments." Dictionary.com: "Attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument." Meriam webster: "Marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made." The Free Dictionary.com: "Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument." Your Dictionary: Attacking the character, motives, etc. of an opponent rather than debating the issue on logical grounds. English Dictionary: "Directed against a person rather than against his arguments." MacMillan: "Criticizing a person’s character instead of what they are saying." American Heritage: "Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument." Oxford Dictionaries: (Of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. At any rate, Barry, your contention is grossly hypocritical, as your responses often resort to insults and personal characterizations.Reciprocating Bill
May 11, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Statements like this “Phyla are a rather arbitrary distinction in terms of evolution” make it clear that you have no interest in a rational discussion. Definition based on genetic relation... Definition based on body plan ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylum Phylogenetically, a phylum is an arbitrary grouping. We might call chordates a phylum, but if we changed our level of classification to deuterostomes or vertebraates, it wouldn't change the genetic relationships. Returning to your original statement, of course, the major differences between phyla occurred early, then they diversified from there.Zachriel
May 11, 2015
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Z @ 18. I tried very hard. It is difficult to know whether you are too stupid to understand the issue, or if you understand it well enough and deflect nevertheless. Statements like this "Phyla are a rather arbitrary distinction in terms of evolution" make it clear that you have no interest in a rational discussion.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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Darwin's Doubt narrated by Paul Giem - The Origin of Body Plans - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t&v=rLl6wrqd1e0&feature=player_detailpage#t=290 Body Plans Are Not Mapped-Out by the DNA - Jonathan Wells - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meR8Hk5q_EM The insurmountable problem of ‘form/shape’ for neo-Darwinian explanations has now been demonstrated by a few different methods. (May 2015) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-succinct-case-for-intelligent-design/#comment-563822bornagain77
May 11, 2015
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VJ Barry somehow thinks that my comment was not a response to your challenge. In the name of sanity please correct him. After all it was a concise version of the point Jim Smith made and you yourself not only treated it as a response to your challenge but accepted the criticism was correct with respect to that quote.Mark Frank
May 11, 2015
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Barry Arrington: False. Here is your statement: "All of the major differences between the animal groups appeared at the very beginning". A direct reading of your statement is that there are no major differences between humans, hagfish, and bats. We'll take your following statement as a clarification. Barry Arrington: The conundrum that everyone recognizes from Darwin right on down to the present day (see the quotes of modern scientists in the OP) is that the differences between the phyla appear at the beginning. Of course. That's what is meant by divergence. A division in lineage occurs, and the branches go in different directions. When flowers evolved, it led to diversification into the new niches afforded by the change. You could say "All of the major differences between flowering and non-flowering plants appeared at the very beginning" of the divergence of flowers, but if that is your claim, it's a tautology. The change that led to flowers led to flowers. Barry Arrington: The problem to be addressed is “how did the major differences between the various phyla arise at the very beginning.” Phyla are a rather arbitrary distinction in terms of evolution. A better formed question would be to ask the origin of bauplans. Molecular studies have traced the origin of what is sometimes called a genetic toolbox, a process that didn't take place all at once, but through stepwise change. (There may have also been environmental changes that spurred the ensuing radiation.) Once in place, it led to experimentation with different body plans, followed by a winnowing process.Zachriel
May 11, 2015
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Barry:
There are major differences between phyla at the very beginning. That’s why they call them phyla Z. Duh.
What?Elizabeth Liddle
May 11, 2015
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Barry: Ad hominem: Meyer must be wrong because he is not a palaeontologist. Not Ad hominem: Meyer is wrong; this may be because he is not a palaeontologist. Non-palaeontologists can be right about palaeontology. Meyer isn't one of them.Elizabeth Liddle
May 11, 2015
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Z @ 8:
There was a burst of diversification, what is called adaptive radiation, but as we go back towards the divergence of the various phyla, the forms more and more resemble one another. So, yes, the differences became greater over time.
Again, you don’t seem to grasp the point of the OP. No one disputes that there has been divergence over time within phyla. You are knocking down a straw man. The issue is this: There are major differences between phyla at the very beginning. That’s why they call them phyla Z. Duh. The conundrum that everyone recognizes from Darwin right on down to the present day (see the quotes of modern scientists in the OP) is that the differences between the phyla appear at the beginning. Well, I should say, that everyone recognizes that conundrum expect apparently you. Now, I will try one more time. The problem to be addressed is “how did the major differences between the various phyla arise at the very beginning.” Now, explain for the class how your assertion that “there has been divergence within the various phyla” does not even address that problem, far less solve it.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2015
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