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What evidence is

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While I disagree with almost everything Professor Larry Moran wrote in reply to my post, Is Larry Moran a conspiracy theorist?, he did at least ask a good question: what counts as evidence? In his latest post, he forthrightly declares:

I don’t know how to define “valid evidence” and I doubt very much if there’s anyone else who can offer a rigorous definition.

This post of mine is an attempt at such a definition.

Let’s begin with “valid evidence,” and defer for the time being the question of what constitutes good evidence. The question of what counts as valid evidence for a hypothesis was answered nearly 300 years ago, by the English statistician and clergyman Thomas Bayes (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia). Broadly speaking, we can define something as valid evidence (E) for a hypothesis (H) if renders H more probable. That is, E is valid evidence for H if the probability of H given E is higher than the prior probability of H before E is observed. The formula below expresses this very neatly:

where P(H|E) represents the probability of H given E, the quotient

expresses the impact of E on the probability of H, and P(H) stands for the prior probability of H, before E is observed. The quotient can be regarded as the level of support which E provides for H. So we can say that if the level of support is greater than 1 – or in other words, if the probability of the hypothesis increases in the light of evidence E – then E is valid evidence for H. It may not be good evidence, but it is at least valid evidence.

All right. But how do we define good evidence? That’s a trickier question. Before putting forward my answer, I’d like to make a few points.

First, evidence isn’t the same thing as proof. This should be so obvious that I shouldn’t have to point it out. However, one often hears skeptics asking believers in the supernatural or paranormal: “How can you be sure you’re not mistaken?” The short answer is that we can’t be absolutely sure. So what? In real life, very few things are absolutely sure, but we still make decisions on the basis of where the totality of the evidence points.

Second, good evidence for a hypothesis must render that hypothesis reasonably probable, in absolute terms. I won’t attempt to provide a precise definition for “reasonably probable, in absolute terms” (10%? 30%? 50%?), but I think we would all agree that 1% is not “reasonably probable.” To illustrate my poiint, let’s suppose that the prior probability of a hypothesis H is very low: 0.0001%, or 1 in 1,000,000. However, after new evidence E becomes available, the probability of H given E shoots up to 0.01%, or 1 in 10,000. In other words, the new evidence renders the hypothesis 100 times more likely to be true than it was previously judged to be. That’s a very high level of support, but even after we take the new evidence into consideration, the probability of the hypothesis is still very low in absolute terms: only 1 in 10,000. I certainly wouldn’t call that good evidence. The moral of the story is that a high degree of support for a hypothesis does not necessarily constitute good evidence for that hypothesis.

Third, good evidence for a hypothesis must provide a high level of support for that hypothesis, in addition to making it reasonably probable in absolute terms. To see why, let’s consider two pieces of evidence for a hypothesis. Before either piece of evidence becomes available, the prior probability of the hypothesis is rated at just 10%. The first piece of evidence raises the probability of that hypothesis from 10% to 50% – a 40% increase in absolute terms. The second piece of evidence raises the probability of the hypothesis from 50% to 90% – which is also a 40% increase. Which piece of evidence is better? I’d say the first, because it renders the hypothesis five times more probable than it was previously, whereas the second piece of evidence doesn’t even double the probability of the hypothesis.

Fourth, whenever we evaluate evidence, we need two or more competing hypotheses to evaluate it against. Thus when assessing evidence for a hypothesis, we need to not only ask how much it strengthens that hypothesis, but also to what degree it strengthens (or weakens) other, rival hypotheses. This is important, because a piece of evidence might be compatible with two different hypotheses, and might therefore strengthen both. The point I’m making here is that when deciding whether we need to revise our views about a hypothesis in the light of new evidence, we also need to look at the level of support it provides for other hypotheses. In statistical jargon, the likelihood ratio is what determines the effect of new evidence on the odds of one hypothesis, relative to another.

Fifth, when evaluating a hypothesis, we need to compare it with its most plausible rivals. It would be grossly unfair if I were to argue that because evidence E provides strong confirmational support for hypothesis A over rival hypothesis B, we should therefore adopt hypothesis A, without even considering the much more plausible hypothesis C. That would be intellectually dishonest. What this principle also entails, however, is that we can safely ignore rival hypotheses which are wildly implausible and which recieve little or no confirmational support from the new evidence. Skeptics who insist that we can never have enough evidence for the supernatural because there might always be some, unknown naturalistic hypothesis out there somewhere that can account for the same evidence, are therefore being unreasonably stubborn. As a general rule of thumb, I would suggest that when evaluating the likelihood of paranormal or supernatural claims, we should confine our attention to the top half-dozen or so naturalistic rival hypotheses. If these all turn out to be duds, then it’s prudent to conclude (provisionally) that a naturalistic explanation isn’t available.

Sixth, when considering outlandish hypotheses (be they UFO abductions or miracles), we need to be able to quantify their improbability in advance, before we start looking at the evidence for these hypotheses. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest. For instance, let’s suppose that John Smith says he’d believe in UFO abductions if he could actually film one on videocamera, and then lo and behold, one takes place in front of him while his videocamera is rolling. For a moment, Smith considers revising his belief that UFO abductions never happen, but then he recalls Sagan’s dictum that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and decides that his video evidence isn’t extraordinary enough: after all, he might have been under hypnosis while witnessing the alleged abduction, and some prankster might have mischievously slipped a fake video into his videocamera. Smith’s fatal error here was that he didn’t attempt to quantify the prior probability of a UFO abduction before recording the event. If he had, he would have been able to resolve his epistemic dilemma: should he revise his beliefs after recording the abduction on video, or shouldn’t he?

Finally, no general hypothesis positing the existence of occult or supernatural agents should be assigned a prior probability of less than 1 in 10^120 (that’s one followed by 120 zeroes). This fraction can be considered as the “floor probability” for bizarre hypotheses of a general nature. Why? Because 10^120 has been calculated by Seth Lloyd as the number of base-level events (or elementary bit-operations) that have taken place in the history of the observable universe. Each non-bizarre (or “normal”) event can be considered as prima facie evidence against any general hypothesis appealing to occult or supernatural agents, and since the number of “normal” events occurring during the history of the observable universe is limited, the cumulative weight of the prima facie evidence against paranormal or supernatural phenomena is also limited. Using Laplace’s sunrise rule, we can say that given a very large number N of normal events and no abnormal events, the prior probability we should assign to the proposition that the next event we observe will be an abnormal one is 1/N, or in this case, 1 divided by 10^120. (Please note that I’m talking only about general hypotheses here: a more specific hypothesis, such as a madcap alien abduction scheme launched by water-people from the planet Woo-woo, will of course have a much lower antecedent probability than the general hypothesis that there are aliens of some sort, out there somewhere, who occasionally abduct humans; consequently evidence for the former hypothesis will have to be more stringent than evidence for the latter.)

Summing up: we can define good evidence for a hypothesis as evidence which provides strong confirmational support for that hypothesis, and which renders that hypothesis reasonably probable (but not certain), when evaluated against its most plausible rivals. And when evaluating bizarre (paranormal or supernatural) hypotheses of a general nature against their naturalistic rivals, the prior probability we should assign to the former is no lower than 1 in 10^120. (Indeed, some people might want to assign a higher floor of 1 in 10^20 for bizarre hypotheses, on the grounds that the number of events that could have been witnessed by the 100 billion-odd people who have ever lived over the course of their billion-second lives is only about 10^20, but we’ll waive that point here.)

We can now address the arguments in Professor Moran’s latest post. Let’s begin with vaccines.

Is the HPV vaccine Gardasil dangerous?

Professor Moran writes:

A few weeks ago the Toronto Star (Toronto, Ontario, Canada) published a front page article on the dangers of Gardasil, a vaccine against human papillomavirus (HPV) that’s recommended for adolescent girls. The article highlighted a number of anecdotal stories about girls who had developed various illnesses and disabilities that they attributed to the vaccine. The reporters thought this was evidence that the vaccine had serious side effects that were being covered up by the pharmaceutical industry…

It’s not hard to see where [reporters] David Bruser and Jesse McLean went wrong. They assumed that anecdotal evidence, or personal testimony, was evidence that Gardasil had serious side effects. They assumed this in spite of the fact that scientists and philosophers have been warning against this form of reasoning for 100 years. They assumed it in spite of the fact that there was abundant scientific evidence showing that Gardasil was safe. And they assumed it without bothering to investigate the stories.

Professor Moran is right, but for the wrong reason. To see why, let’s suppose that there were a number of stories in the press about girls living near a nuclear power plant, who had developed various mysterious illnesses. We would not be in the least reassured by government officials appearing on television and declaring that there was abundant scientific evidence showing that nuclear power plants were safe (even though in fact there is). Nor would we be impressed if these politicians pooh-poohed the press stories as anecdotal. If the illnesses were odd enough, and numerous enough, we’d tell the officials, “The incidence of rare illnesses among girls living near nuclear reactors constitutes striking evidence, which is not easily explained except by the hypothesis that the nuclear power plants are making the girls sick. Get up off your lazy backsides, and go and have a look!” (That’s how people talk to politicians in Australia, which is where I’m from.)

It’s true that correlation does not imply causation, and in the case described above, there might be some other cause at work: perhaps, by sheer coincidence, the nuclear power plants in the areas where the outbreaks have occurred are all located near toxic coal-fired power plants, which are really causing the illnesses. But a sufficiently strong correlation usually does imply the presence of a causal link. The question we then need to answer is: what kind of causal link?

Professor Moran evidently appreciates this point, for he continues:

Now, it’s possible that accumulating stories like those will eventually lead to further investigation and the discovery that there are, indeed, some rare side-effects that went undetected in the initial studies. When that happens, we will have evidence. But as long as there are better explanations for those stories they are not evidence of a serious problem with the vaccine.

Exactly. The critical question here is not: can we trust anecdotal evidence? Rather, the question we need to answer is: is there a hypothesis which better explains the evidence?

Did a man levitate in the seventeenth century?

Professor Moran then attempts to discredit the evidence I brought forward of a man known as St. Joseph of Cupertino, who levitated in the seventeenth century:

Torley says that there’s evidence of miracle and this is evidence of god(s). His “evidence” consists of reports by eighteenth century theologians that thousands of people witnessed St. Joseph of Cupertino flying through the air.

I reject the notion that this constitutes evidence that St. Cupertino could actually fly. There are far better explanations for the reported observations; namely, that they aren’t true. One of the characteristics of valid evidence has to be whether the purported explanation is a logical conclusion from the observation. In this case, is it more reasonable to assume that thousands of people saw St. Cupertio fly or is it more reasonable to assume that they all just imagined it, or that the second-hand reports are untrue? …

I don’t believe that St. Cupertino actually flew around parts of Italy in the 1600s because there are much more reasonable explanations for the reports that have been written.

Let’s begin with Moran’s statement: “There are far better explanations for the reported observations; namely, that they aren’t true.” Sorry, but that’s not an explanation of anything. At the very least, an explanation of an alleged supernatural event would have to acccount for why the witnesses thought they had seen something supernatural.

Moran then proceeds to disparage the miracle reports by referring to them as “second-hand” and by alleging a time-lag of 100 years between the events described and the earliest reports of them. But it turns out that a biography of St. Joseph of Cupertino was written as early as 1678, a mere 15 years after his death in 1663. In my last post, I also mentioned that there were thirteen volumes in the Vatican Archives, containing “numerous testimonies of witnesses (including princes, cardinals, bishops and doctors) who knew St Joseph personally and in many cases were eyewitnesses to the wonderful events of his life.” By definition, eyewitness testimony is first-hand, not second-hand.

I then quoted from an article by a modern biographer, Michael Grosso, who summarized the evidence for the levitations as follows;

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation; and then decided it was enough…

…[T]he Church progressively tried to make him retreat to the most obscure corners of the Adriatic coast, ending finally under virtual house arrest in a small monastic community at Osimo. There was no decline effect in Joseph’s strange aerial behaviors; during his last six years in Osimo he was left alone to plunge into his interior life; the records are unanimous in saying that the ratti (raptures) were in abundance right up until his dying days. The cleric in charge of the community swore that he witnessed Joseph levitate to the ceiling of his cell thousands of times.

To repudiate the evidence for Joseph’s levitations would be to repudiate thirty-five years of history because the records of his life are quite detailed and entangled with other lives and documented historical events. We would have to assume colossal mendacity and unbelievable stupidity on the part of thousands of people, if we chose to reject this evidence.

In order to maintain that there are no first-hand reports of St. Joseph of Cupertino’s levitatiosn, Professor Moran would have to maintain that there was a conspiracy on a colossal scale, involving hundreds or even thousands of eminent people who were prepared to perjure themselves by giving sworn testimony of a miracle they knew never happened. And in order to maintain that “they all just imagined it,” as Moran supposes, one would have to maintain that thousands of hallucinations took place, involving thousands of people at many different locations. The problem with both hypotheses is that their antecedent (or prior) probability is even lower than the prior probability of a miracle occurring, which (as I argued above) can be no lower than 1 in 10^120. For instance, let’s suppose that the prior probability of a large crowd of people all imagining that they saw a person levitate in the air for several hours (as St. Joseph is alleged to have often done) is 1 in 1,000, or 1 in 10^3. That’s a very generous estimate, as there are no similar reports of mass hallucinations ever having occurred, anywhere in the world, over a period of hours and under normal viewing conditions. Since the sightings took place on many different occasions at different locations, and involved different people, we can treat them as independent events – which means we can multiply their probabilities. Thus we can calculate that the probability of 40 such independent sightings is 1 in (10^3)^40, or 1 in 10^120. Since there were in fact thousands of sightings, the combined probability of these hallucinations having occurred is far, far lower than the threshold probability of 1 in 10^120, that we assigned to a miracle.

To be sure, one might hypothesize the existence of some unknown common cause for all of these independent sightings – for instance, high levels of cosmic radiation hitting the Earth (and especially Italy) in the seventeenth century. But as we saw above, the appeal to unknown causes is intellectually obstinate. We have to make up our minds, based on the evidence available to us. That means we might be wrong, of course. But that’s an epistemic risk we have to take. The alternative is intellectual paralysis.

Professor Moran also asks why “only Roman Catholic priests … can fly and why haven’t there been any sightings in modern times.” But I nowhere claimed that this miracle constituted evidence for the truth of any particular religion; I merely cited it as evidence for the supernatural. As for levitation sightings occurring in modern times, Professor Moran should be aware that there have been reports of more recent sightings, although the quality of the evidence for these levitations is nowhere near as good as the evidence relating to St. Joseph of Cupertino. I focused on him, simply because he was my best case. (There have also been reports of levitations associated with other Catholic mystics, as well as spiritualists and Indian yogis.)

The origin of life

In response to evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin’s peer-reviewed estimate of the probability of life originating anywhere in the observable universe as 1 in 10^1,018, Professor Moran comments:

Eugene Koonin’s calculations are silly. I have no idea how to discuss them.

I don’t know how life originated. That statement gets me in trouble with many defenders of evolution because they think it concedes too much to the creationists. Frankly, I don’t care. It’s the truth and we need to be up front about it. Just because we don’t know doesn’t mean that a naturalistic origin of life is impossible. On the contrary, everything we do know is consistent with a spontaneous, natural, origin of life. It looks to me like it was a very rare event but it’s a big universe…

Life on Earth began about 3.5 billion years ago. It is not evidence of god(s)

The fact that a qualified biochemist has “no idea how to discuss” Dr. Koonin’s calculations, which passed a panel of four peer-reviewers, speaks volumes. It means that Moran has no alternative naturalistic hypothesis. Moran might respond that we had no naturalistic hypothesis for magnetism either, until the late nineteenth century. But even people in ancient times knew the cause of magnetism: they knew, for instance, that pieces of a rock called magnetite attracted shepherds’ iron staffs. Moreover, magnetism was an everyday occurrence. By contrast, we know of no adequate cause for the origin of life, and as far as we know, it occurred only once in the history of the universe: 3.5 billion years ago. In this case, it is not rational to infer that life had a natural origin; it is an article of faith.

The fine-tuning argument

Professor Moran writes:

The universe may not be as “fine-tuned” as most creationist believe. Anyone who has read Victor Stenger will know that it’s not an open-and-shut case [Fine-tuned Universe]. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the universe is “moderately-tuned for life as we know it.” We don’t know how many other kinds of universe are possible and we don’t know how many different kinds of life are possible…

It seems to be extraordinarily difficult for believers to grasp the essence of the “puddle argument” described by Douglas Adams [Here’s the relevant quote from Adams: “…Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'” – VJT.]

As I stated in my last post in response to Professor Moran, cosmologist Luke Barnes’ online essay, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life amply refutes Victor Stenger’s arguments. It is thus reasonably certain that our universe would be incapable of supporting life if its fundamental parameters were even slightly different. This inference would remain valid, even if it turned out that there were other, unknown values of the constants of Nature which would allow universes very different from our own to support life. All that the fine-tuning argument claims is that a lifeless universe would have resulted from fairly minor changes in the forces etc. with which we are familiar. That in itself is a highly remarkable fact, as the philosopher John Leslie explained, using his now-famous “fly-on-the-wall” analogy: “If a tiny group of flies is surrounded by a largish fly-free wall area then whether a bullet hits a fly in the group will be very sensitive to the direction in which the firer’s rifle points, even if other very different areas of the wall are thick with flies.”

Adams’ puddle analogy completely misses the point, because the puddle of water would still be a puddle, even if its shape were slightly different. It just wouldn’t be the same puddle, that’s all.

I will stop here, and let Professor Moran have the last word in this exchange, if he wishes.

Comments
RD Miksa @ 34
I have answered some of your questions, so now a questions for you: if thousands of people of diverse backgrounds and educations–atheists, naturalists, religious people, etc,– did see a three year old walk on water for a few minutes, then levitate, then walk on water again and there were no indications of fraud, what would you believe about that? Why?
I would ensure that the adult who put the child as an exhibit is arrested. Show me one such case.Me_Think
February 26, 2015
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RDM: I didn't actually answer your question. You are proposing a current event, which is completely different to an event observed many years in the past. Not the same thing. If its a current event, I would still be very sceptical. It could easily be a magic trick ... how could I be sure its not the great Randi (in his heyday) ?Graham2
February 26, 2015
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RD Miksa @ 33
Expand your thinking a bit. My point was that today, many adults are magicians and illusionists with devices and machines to make illusions seem real. But a three year could not fit such criteria. By the same token, at the time Joseph of Cupertino lived, the devices used to make illusions of such a nature occur were not available either.
If you see a 3 year old levitate, you can be absolutely sure that there is an adult beyond the trick. Street magic was more popular in ancient times. There were many magicians who used simple wire and dummies to do extraordinary tricks. There are a lot of cases of levitation in ancient times because people were more gullible. I can't believe you are so naive. The only levitation I believe in is Superconductor levitation.Me_Think
February 26, 2015
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RD_M: I tend to lend a little more weight to a few hundred years of science and thousands, (millions?) of scientists who have never, never, observed, or had the slightest reason to suppose that walking on water, levitating, etc etc etc are possible. This sort of nonsense violates extremely basic assumptions such as conservation of energy, etc, that Im afraid the 'eye witness' accounts from long ago don't sound very convincing. Its not that science must be obeyed, just where I would bet my money.Graham2
February 26, 2015
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Me Think, I have answered some of your questions, so now a questions for you: if thousands of people of diverse backgrounds and educations--atheists, naturalists, religious people, etc,-- did see a three year old walk on water for a few minutes, then levitate, then walk on water again and there were no indications of fraud, what would you believe about that? Why?RD Miksa
February 26, 2015
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Me Think, Expand your thinking a bit. My point was that today, many adults are magicians and illusionists with devices and machines to make illusions seem real. But a three year could not fit such criteria. By the same token, at the time Joseph of Cupertino lived, the devices used to make illusions of such a nature occur were not available either. Hence why in both cases there is the similarity that a wide scale illusion could not be manufactured as it could be by an aduot magician today. Furthermore, there are other cases for levitation than just that one.RD Miksa
February 26, 2015
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Provisionally, yes. Reason: The testimonial evidence is overpowering from numerous diverse, disconnected, and credible sources, thus making it rational to believe in. Furthermore, if I did not believe such evidence then I would be forced to equally reject numerous other beliefs which are absolutely extraordinary but which I am perfectly rational to believe and which I believe only on the basis of testimony (such as the extraordinary belief that the solid desk in front of me is really mostly empty space, which goes against all my experience and yet which I only believe on the basis of some scientists who have testified that this is so...and I can never go beyond their testimony into this, due to lack of time, resources, and skill, and yet, based on their testimony alone, I am quite rational to hold such a belief). Now, a question for you: Would testimonial evidence ever be enough to make you believe in levitation? If so, how much? If not, why not?RD Miksa
February 26, 2015
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What is the evidence for ID?
I don’t know how to define “valid evidence” and I doubt very much if there’s anyone else who can offer a rigorous definition.
Indeed. Anyone who claims to doubt intelligent design on some supposed lack of evidence for intelligent design likely has no basis in either evidence or reason for their "skepticism." But we already knew that.Mung
February 26, 2015
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RD Miksa @ 28
But, as a counterpoint, if hundreds and thousands of people on a random beach suddenly witnessed a three year old (thus meaning he could not be a magician or used by one) walk out on the water, stand there for a few minutes and then levitate..
St. Joseph of Cupertino was not a 3 years old child. If Criss Angel hadn't claimed he is a magician, would you believe he has supernatural power?Me_Think
February 26, 2015
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RD_M: Same question to you: Do you believe people can levitate ?Graham2
February 26, 2015
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Me_Think, No, but not primarily because of scientific evidence, but rather because of eye-witness testimony...namely, the eye-witness testimony of Criss Angel who has specifically said that these are all magic tricks and that he has no such powers. Also, the eye witness testimony of numerous other people who testify that Criss Angel is a gifted magician, and thus he would be expected to perform such feats as an illusion. So it is testimony--namely, the testimony of the person that would know best, meaning Criss Angel--that is the evidence that demonstrates that these things are not occurring. Furthermore, it is indisputable that the testimony of all those people makes it rational to believe that they observed Criss Angel levitate or walk on water. But then, when that testimony is combined with Criss Angel's own testimony and past history, that factor than makes it more rational to believe that the best explanation of the event, when all the relevant testimony is considered, is that the people in question witnessed an illusion rather than the real thing. But, as a counterpoint, if hundreds and thousands of people on a random beach suddenly witnessed a three year old (thus meaning he could not be a magician or used by one) walk out on the water, stand there for a few minutes and then levitate, and that many people saw it and testified to it...would I believe it? Absolutely (barring any indicators of fraud, etc.). That would be the only rational and common sense course of action.RD Miksa
February 26, 2015
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RD Miksa @ 25
Note how this mantra is used to claim–in the context of this discussion–how it is apparently more rational to believe that hundreds of witnesses hallucinated or colluded or lied rather than believe that a man levitated... And my second point is just this: ideal eye-witness testimony is more powerful than scientific evidence and thus something may be scientifically inexplicable with current scientific knowledge, and yet perfectly rational to believe on the basis of sufficient eye witness testimony.
Thousands have witnessed Criss Angel levitate and walk on water. Do you think he has supernatural power?Me_Think
February 26, 2015
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KF: Im always amused to watch you (and others of the same mind) twist & squirm, but evade the question. You are just too embarrassed to give a straight answer, you cant say YES and you cant say NO.Graham2
February 26, 2015
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Just two quick comment, because I am writing from my cell-phone. First, the ironic thing to note in terms of comments from the anti-super-naturalist side is how they fail to realize that their very own arguments undermine their own naturalistic position. Indeed, note their use of the poorly-formulated but often used mantra "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Note how this mantra is used to claim--in the context of this discussion--how it is apparently more rational to believe that hundreds of witnesses hallucinated or colluded or lied rather than believe that a man levitated. But the problem is, such an argument can be turned right back on the naturalistic. For example, consider that the biological realm reeks of the appearance of intentional design, as many naturalists themselves admit. But naturalists deny this and claim that neo-Darwinian evolution is reasonable. But this is an extraordinary claim. After all, just like with levitation, I have never seen one type of organism change into another type. I have never seen molecules change into animals than conscious men. But then the naturalists will say that scientists have looked at the evidence and have inferred that neo-Darwinian theory is the best explanation of the evidence at hand. But suddenly, I retort: What's more likely, that molecules evolved into men without design, something that no one has ever seen, or that 1) the scientists are lying due to a naturalistic prejudice and/or that 2) scientists are mistaken about their inference, and/or 3) that the scientists are biased in favor of naturalism and this unconsciously skews their interpretation of the evidence, and/or that 4) all the scientists are colluded together to promote evolution to keep their jobs, and/or that 5) people are sometimes honestly mistaken in their inferential efforts and that is probably the case with these scientists, and so on and so forth. So, it is clearly more likely that their is a problem on the part of the scientists rather than that our uniform and repeated empirical evidence that species do not evolve into other species is wrong. And since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I am perfectly rational to not believe in the extraordinary claim that is neo-Darwinian evolution. Now, if a naturalist thinks that the above argument is ridculous, then he needs to explain why his argument against believing in levitate on the basis of hundreds of eye witnesses is not equally ridculous. Till then, the selective double standard that the naturalist is obviously using will remain glaringly obvious. And my second point is just this: ideal eye-witness testimony is more powerful than scientific evidence and thus something may be scientifically inexplicable with current scientific knowledge, and yet perfectly rational to believe on the basis of sufficient eye witness testimony.RD Miksa
February 26, 2015
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G2, your problem is that sight unseen, you already have made your mind up to dismiss the possibility that someone -- or actually, a group of witnesses in a semi-public situation -- can see a genuine miracle. From my view, knowing what I saw [including things I have not disclosed and will not disclose] and the circumstances (which rule out illusionist tricks), I am able to evaluate the flaws in your thinking which lock out what you wish to disbelieve. I suggest you would be well advised to ponder the challenges and fallacies of selective hyperskepticism. KF PS: Post Dec 17, 1903, men do fly, normally with the aid of machines. A supernatural event, however, will have nothing to do with normal human capacities and technology.kairosfocus
February 26, 2015
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So, KF: Do you think man can fly ?Graham2
February 26, 2015
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PPS: The number of reasonable, factually anchored and logically constrained, coherent and explanatorily balanced explanations conceivable by us will be much less than infinite, i.e. the search in the space of explanations is constrained by our finitude, fallibility and scope of resources accessible in our sol system. In fact, on major issues of the gamut of a scientific theory of origins or a worldview or a serious strategic decision on risking resources or the like, it is easy to see that the number of serious candidate explanations is quite limited, often a handful or less.kairosfocus
February 26, 2015
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MF (& RS et al), I would argue that once we go beyond the observable cosmos, we are beyond empirically anchored science and in the realm of metaphysical speculation; e.g. multiverse speculations. Even, if one wears a lab coat while doing that. Second, while one may argue about Lloyd's approach of a thought exercise of converting the cosmos into a computational entity and coming up with was it 10^90 elements doing 10^120 bit-wise computational steps, I think Abel's approach of looking at observed atomic resources and developing plausibility limits for blind search processes on the gamut of earth, sol system and observed cosmos is much more accessible, more plausible and direct:
http://www.tbiomed.com/content/6/1/27 The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) David L Abel Correspondence: David L Abel Author Affiliations Department of ProtoBioCybernetics/ProtoBioSemiotics, The Gene Emergence Project of The Origin of Life Science Foundation, Inc, 113-120 Hedgewood Dr Greenbelt, MD 20770-1610, USA Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 2009, 6:27 doi:10.1186/1742-4682-6-27 Received: 29 September 2009 Accepted: 3 December 2009 Published: 3 December 2009 © 2009 Abel; licensee BioMed Central Ltd. Abstract Background Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, "Yes." A method of objectively measuring the plausibility of any chance hypothesis (The Universal Plausibility Metric [UPM]) is presented. A numerical inequality is also provided whereby any chance hypothesis can be definitively falsified when its UPM metric of ? is < 1 (The Universal Plausibility Principle [UPP]). Both UPM and UPP pre-exist and are independent of any experimental design and data set. Conclusion No low-probability hypothetical plausibility assertion should survive peer-review without subjection to the UPP inequality standard of formal falsification (? < 1) . . . . [universe] 10^140 [galaxy] 10^127 [sol system] 10^117 [earth] 10^102
What I did just above is in the spirit of Abel's calc. It shows why a blind needle in haystack search of the config space of just 1,000 bits' worth of possibilities is not a feasible proposition on the gamut of the observed cosmos. For the sol system, 500 bits comes down to a one straw to cubical haystack comparably thick to our galaxy's disc search. Thus the 500 - 1,000 bit complexity threshold. Now, what this boils down to is a practical measure for when no plausible benefit can justify committing to hoping for a successful blind needle in haystack search under the gamut of resources in our sol system [10^57 atoms, 10^17 s, 10^14 steps/s each] or observed cosmos [10^80 atoms, 10^17 s, 10^14 steps each/s]. That is a practical, quite conservative threshold for effectively zero odds of success. In fact, long before such odds were on the table, any prudent person would not hazard something that would be painful to lose on a low likelihood of success venture. In short, a red flag threshold. So, the question on these origins science, design inference or is this credibly a reliable account of a miracle cases is first: what do we hope to gain on the venture we are undertaking? Second, what are we putting at stake on the venture? Third, if we are under a contingency that we are likely to lose, what warning signs and lead time do we have to cut losses? And, the like. For me, the design inference on signs is not a high risk venture; my worldview or confidence that God is Creator and Just Lord do not pivot on it -- after all, my life was saved by a miracle of guidance and I have come to know and be transformed personally by God as have many others of my direct acquaintance with millions by indirect knowledge. What is, is that I am looking at evidence on the merits and am committing myself to stand by the truth as I can see and warrant it, without regard to what is fashionable. If I am wrong, I have little to lose other than needing to acknowledge error on finding that to be so. And, the trajectory of evidence and logic points the other way. I find that others, committed to an evolutionary materialist view, are staking all on there being only a matter-energy, space-time reality with nothing beyond a physical cosmos in some form. Often . . . obviously not all, but often cf YouTube etc, with an angry and militant stridency in the face of any idea that we may live in a world created by God, a necessary and maximally great being, ground of morality and root of being. Such a person -- judging by the sort of intensity that is so often evident at say YouTube etc -- may well be in the trap of escalating commitment in the teeth of any and all evidence to the contrary; perhaps, as the possibility of accounting for one's life before such a Deity is daunting, and as such a one wishes to live by his or her own wishes. I doubt that that is a mindset conducive to reasonable, objective, fair-minded evaluation. To such a person, I would suggest that the God who is maximally great would be marked by redemptive, forgiving and transforming love -- as I and many others have experienced well beyond our just desserts. So, perhaps, one should set to one side the militant a priori materialist scientism and selective hyperskepticism and reconsider. First, take FSCO/I, which is certainly a common characteristic of designed entities. Indeed it is much of what creates the intuitive appearance of design. Can you identify per reliable here and now observation, that the sort of blind chance and mechanical F = m*a necessity, needle in haystack search against such odds as were outlined, credibly has actually created FSCO/I? A fair answer is, no; with quite literally [US sense] trillions of cases of FSCO/I as a sign or result of design. On that strength, if one sees FSCO/I, one knows just one empirically reliable, known adequate cause, design. So, it is reasonable to apply vera causa and infer that cell based life and body plans -- chock full of FSCO/I -- are designed. Now, that in itself -- as design theorists have openly acknowledged for 30 years -- does not locate such a designer as within or beyond the cosmos. A molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter et al could in principle account for what we see. Beyond, I reflect on the evident fine tuning of the observed cosmos, which points to design of a world that sits at a locally deeply isolated operating point that facilitates C-chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life on terrestrial planets. Cf: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations-6-introducing-the-cosmological-design-inference/ http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Collins-The-Teleological-Argument.pdf http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1112/1112.4647v1.pdf That does, to my mind, point to design by a designer beyond the cosmos, even through a multiverse speculation, as say the Leslie isolated fly on the wall swatted by a bullet analogy highlights. Likewise, that a Boltzmann brain world or the like is not what we are seeing. Further to all of this, I find myself to be under the moral government of ought and that this is more reasonable to accept than the alternative that that sense is delusional, as that would let loose grand delusion in a mind without firewalls, undermining the whole world of rational thought and knowledge, including science. I observe that others are like that too. That points strongly to the reality of OUGHT thence a world-root IS that grounds OUGHT. For that here is just one serious candidate, the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, the root of reality. Thus, on evidence and reason tied to it, I find ethical theism a satisfying and credible worldview. And, I find that dismissiveness towards such evidence in aggregate is symptomatic of something that I find is not intellectually healthy, selective hyperskepticism. So, that brings me full circle, to the issue, what are we betting, hoping to gain what, and what happens if we are wrong? KF PS: Those curious as to why I am specifically a Christian theist, may find here on in context helpful.kairosfocus
February 26, 2015
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There seems a lot of confusion about the Seth Lloyd figure. I think it almost meaningless but for what is worth: 1) It is only about the observable universe. It makes no claims about the number of possible events in the entire universe. 2) As Robert Sheldon points out in #7
if the number of relationships between particles matter, then he should have calculated the permutations of particles, which is not 10^120, but 10^(10^120)
3) It has no relationship to the number of conceivable explanations for an event which is infinite.Mark Frank
February 26, 2015
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F/N: A few thoughts on cosmic-scale blind needle in haystack search. Our observed cosmos has in it some 10^80 atoms, and a good atomic-level clock-tick is a fast chem rxn rate of perhaps 10^-14 s. 13.7 bn y ~10^17 s. The number of atom-scale events in that span in the observed cosmos is thus of order 10^111. The number of configs for 1,000 coins (or, bits) is 2^1,000 ~ 1.07*10^301. That is, if we were to give each atom of the observed cosmos a tray of 1,000 coins, and toss and observe then process 10^14 times per second, the resources of the observed cosmos would sample up to 1 in 10^190 of the set of possibilities. It is reasonable to deem such a blind search, whether contiguous or a dust, as far too sparse to have any reasonable likelihood of finding any reasonably isolated "needles" in the haystack of possibilities. A rough calc suggests that the ratio is comparable to a single straw drawn from a cubical haystack ~ 2 * 10^45 LY across. (Our observed cosmos may be ~ 10^11 LY across, i.e. the imaginary haystack would swallow up our observed cosmos.) Of course, as posts in this thread amply demonstrate the "miracle" of intelligently directed configuration allows us to routinely produce cases of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information well beyond such a threshold. For an ASCII text string 1,000 bits is about 143 characters, the length of a Twitter post. So, I find myself comfortable with the conclusion that if likelihood of a collective error is significantly worse than 1 in 10^120 or 150 or the like, it is far more plausible to accept the testimonies as accurate than the opposite. Actually, that kicks in long before that, I would generally accept good lottery odds. That is, I would not bet a significant sum -- one that, if lost, would hurt -- on a million to one long shot, unless the clear alternative was worse. But then, for years I have refused to go south of the Nantes River line into Salem village on the banks of the Belham here (a radial valley running back to the dome that has grown outside the crater wall of SH Volcano) unless I have VERY good reason; as the valley is the first one without significant deposits from the last major eruption generally held to be 10 - 20+ kya. But, hundreds of people live there. I think we need to ask a few Pascal's Wager, least regrets when it all comes out in the wash type questions. As in, what are the serious alternatives on the table, what are the potential outcomes if we are right/wrong, and what options would be prudent given reasonable likelihoods, impacts of favourable/unfavourable outcomes, rapidity of onset, warning signs etc. More or less, the sorts of things Jesus of Nazareth was getting at when he said, what is a man profited in the end if he has gained the whole world but lost his soul. Some thoughts . . . KFkairosfocus
February 26, 2015
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Starbuck: I find an interesting tendency to take the statistical concept of "anecdotes" out of context, by inappropriately using this term to dismissively relabel testimony of eyewitnesses or record of such. Again, this easily becomes selective hyperskepticism, as I noted on in 1 above; e.g. are you prepared to dismiss the testimony of the women in the "elevatorgate" scandal as mere anecdotes, and if so why, if not why not and how does that relate to other cases of relevance. I point out, the testimony of just one reliable, credibly truthful witness can be utterly decisive. The cumulative testimony of multiple credible witnesses can be all but absolutely certain, and absolutely, here, is reserved for something like undeniably true self evident truths of the order of "error exists." KF PS: I think we need to bring back on the table the concept of moral certainty.kairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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MF, 150 people who reported (presumably in writing or otherwise on record) is not equal to the number who -- per the same records in aggregate -- witnessed the events, which were a national and continent-wide sensation. Further to this, such was about as close to Hume as WWI has been to us in recent decades, i.e. it puts a fresh and unflattering light on Hume's assertions and confidently dismissive manner. Far more appropriate is Babbage coming on a century yet later in the Ninth Bridgewater Treatise, who uses cumulative likelihood of collective but independent testimony to decisively undermine Hume's dismissive suggestion that the most implausible naturalistic alternative is always superior to the straightforward conclusion that a miracle was witnessed. Which of course VJT has outlined. KF PS: As one who has seen the comparable personally under circumstances that rule out illusion [and in the presence of other witnesses in a semi-public situation comparable to what VJT describes], I find it illuminating to see how determined objectors fall into error once miracles including answers to prayer are on the table. (Onlookers, absent a miracle of guidance in answer to prayer of surrender, I would not be here.)kairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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VJT: I take it all back. Its on youtube: all you need are magnetic shoes. Im converted.Graham2
February 25, 2015
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxIPx21gt3ENickMatzke_UD
February 25, 2015
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So, Vincent: Do you believe man can fly ?Graham2
February 25, 2015
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What an exceptionally well drawn out terms of engagement. There does always seem to be some level of hypocrisy in arguments over valid evidence and good evidence. I'd like if you could perhaps give a short discussion on how a "flying miracle" is actually much more likely given the rules of evidence and that it abrogates no repeatedly established a priori demands, than, say, abiogenesis, which is not only never reported, but runs counter to physical laws and has been consistently refuted with every attempt to make it so, even attempts directed by scientists' minds.jw777
February 25, 2015
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Evolve, " No, as per theory there could have been equally remarkable or even more remarkable events had the physical constants been different." I had a major chat with a theoretical physicist on this topic. He seemed to disagree with you. It appeared to his Ph.Dness that slight changes in the constants would have produced what you might call a non-environment. Either matter itself would not coalesce at all, or it would all lump together into a big cold blob, or in some other radical way it wouldn't just turn into a nice little environment with different chemical characteristics. His view seems totally consistent with everything I have read on the topic so far. Please provide me with data that suggests that my Ph.D. friend is full of it.bFast
February 25, 2015
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Evolve, naturalistic origin of life is not an improbable event, it is an impossible event. Chance and necessity cannot create in principle the organization of life. Randomness and laws are unable to produce function/task hierarchies, control/regulation, symbolic processing, signal communication between sub-systems, all things pertaining to real organization. You should open your eyes and finally understand that organization can be created only by intelligence. In a single word, you should... evolve. :)niwrad
February 25, 2015
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Vincent is at it again! Modern day magicians can trick thousands of people into believing what they're seeing. It is entirely possible St. Joseph did the same in the 17th century. Eyewitness accounts are simply not enough to deem his levitation a miracle. And you're totally wrong on the fine-tuning argument, Vincent. You're assuming teleology - that life is such a remarkable event that the universe had to be tuned to produce it. No, as per theory there could have been equally remarkable or even more remarkable events had the physical constants been different. There's no reason to assume that this current universe and life are special. It is just like your birth. Countless other humans - all unique in their own right - could have come into existence from your ancestors' unions. But by sheer chance only Vincent Torley emerged, all other possible humans never materialized. Now it would be fallacious to claim Vincent Torley is so special that somebody fine-tuned his ancestors' gametes to produce him. That's what you're doing with the universe too. This is just one among countless possible universes, and life is a mere fallout, a mere consequence of the way the universe ended up being. Life is fine-tuned to the universe and not vice-versa. Koonin's origin of life odds are meaningless too. If there are 1 million lottery tickets in a draw, what's the probability of each ticket winning? 1 in 1 million. Pretty steep. But when one ticket eventually wins, will you claim that the probability is so steep that it couldn't have happened by chance? It's rubbish. Improbable events will happen all the time.Evolve
February 25, 2015
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Wow your analysis is complicated. For starters, I fundamentally disagree with point 4, "Fourth, whenever we evaluate evidence, we need two or more competing hypotheses to evaluate it against." We absolutely do not, though this is the claim I hear so often from evolutionists. They begin by philosophically dismissing the ID hypothesis, then charge that our evidence against evolution doesn't count because it doesn't have an alternative. If I am in court, charged with murder, all I must do to have the charges dismissed is to prove that I could not possibly have done it (I was in Cleveland at the time.) I do not have to provide any hypothesis of who did do it. I think the whole thing can be simplified drastically. First is the veracity of the the evidence. Does the evidence stand up to scrutiny? Second is the class of evidence -- does this evidence support an hypothesis (positive evidence) or does it challenge an hypothesis (negative evidence). Admittedly, most pro-ID evidence actually primarily challenges the neo-Darwinian view rather than directly supporting the ID view. Please understand that both positive and negative evidence is very valuable. A lot is made of "falsification", which references negative evidence. Falsification, however, has (should have) no need for an alternative hypothesis. If an hypothesis is falsified, it is false. If that leaves us in the state of "I don't know", well, so be it. The third factor is simply "how strongly does this evidence support or damn the hypothesis?" If a piece of evidence is clearly valid, and if the evidence is positive, it doesn't go very far in the direction of supporting an hypothesis if it in ancillary. Alas, in my view much of the supposed evidence supporting neo-Darwinism is rather ancillary, such as the famous finches. As far as your "Finally, no general hypothesis positing the existence of occult or supernatural agents should be assigned a prior probability of less than 1 in 10^120" assertion, I just don't get it. I understand that a major problem with the "supernatural agents" assertion is the challenge of trickery. If I understand Chris Angel correctly, he exclusively uses trickery. However, if he wanted to convince people of that he uses supernatural powers, his trickery is plenty good enough that he could do so. However, consider the "big foot" claim. We see grainy footage of "big foot". We gather footprints. Some are very much convinced of big foot's existence. Most of us are not. We somehow believe that there are no huge ape-like creatures roaming our forests undiscovered. That said, the Gorilla was first described in the 5th century. Yet is was not until 1847 when bones (including a skull) were found that Gorilla lost its mythical status. (http://listverse.com/2010/04/16/10-beasts-that-used-to-be-mythical/). Seems that "big foot" is very real in Africa. Certainly we each have different believability thresholds -- especially when it comes to a "supernatural" explanation. It is clear to me that many have their threshold of believability set far beyond 1 in 10^120. Many are very good at dismissing supernatural evidence on philosophical grounds alone. They simply never examine the evidence. That said, most importantly, we must realize that negative evidence must carry heavy weight. If our hypothesis cannot be valid, it is not, even if there is no other hypothesis to explain it.bFast
February 25, 2015
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