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When I’m wrong

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In a recent post in which I questioned the claim that over 100 mutations get fixed in the human population in every generation, I remarked, “I’m happy to be proved wrong.” Guess what? I meant it. After weighing the evidence presented on both sides, I’ve decided that there are no good mathematical arguments showing that 130 mutations couldn’t have been fixed in each generation of the human lineage, over the past five million years. Although the equations of population genetics are based on assumptions, these assumptions have been tested – and validated – for bacteria. And while the mutation rate per individual per generation is five orders of magnitude greater for human beings than for bacteria, the fact that the human genome is about 1,000 times larger than that of a bacterium, coupled with the fact that there are multiple cell divisions per generation in animals, explains why humans would have a much higher mutation rate. Of course, arguments from extrapolation aren’t always valid, and for all I know, there might be any number of reasons why fixation rates of 100 per generation for human beings (as predicted by the equations of population genetics) are biologically implausible. But the onus is clearly on the skeptic to explain why we shouldn’t believe the claim that 100 mutations are fixed in the human population in every generation. Dr. Kozulic (who is a well-published biochemist) is a prominent skeptic; and in my last post, Branko Kozulic responds to Professor Moran, I gave him the opportunity to state his case. Since Dr. Kozulic is from Croatia, I also assisted him in presenting his argument as clearly as possible, in English. After sifting through the replies by wd400 and Nick Matzke, I have come to the conclusion that the arguments that Dr. Kozulic and I presented in our post failed to establish that a fixation rate of 100 per generation for human beings, even during the Paleolithic era, would be infeasible. To uninitiated laypeople like myself, such a high rate of fixation for a very thinly scattered Stone Age population sounds highly counter-intuitive at first sight, but that does not make it untrue. After weighing the arguments, I now think that the neutral theory of evolution can account for the number of mutations fixed in the human population over the last five million years (roughly 22.4 million).

My concession on this point does not mean that I think the neutral theory of evolution can account for the pattern of fixation events observed in the human lineage, let alone the existence of orphan genes. Those are separate issues, and should be addressed as such.

After reading Professor Moran’s recent post, On being “outed” as a closet Darwinist, I would like to make it clear that I am fully aware that Moran publicly disagrees with many of Darwin’s ideas. In our previous post, Dr. Kozulic and I characterized Professor Moran as a “Darwinist” in one important respect only, as we expressly stated. To illustrate what I mean, I’d like to quote from his 2006 essay, Macroevolution:

The Creationists would have us believe there is some magical barrier separating selection and drift within a species from the evolution of new species and new characteristics. Not only is this imagined barrier invisible to most scientists but, in addition, there is abundant evidence that no such barrier exists. We have numerous examples that show how diverse species are connected by a long series of genetic changes.

If Professor Moran can think of a handy label to describe someone who holds such a view, then I shall gladly use it in future, when referring to him. “Gradualist” is a term that comes to mind, but I don’t think Professor Moran would appreciate that label, either. Moran also rejects the view that microevolution is sufficient to account for macroevolution, as his essay makes clear.

Professor Moran and I disagree on many things, and I’m sure we’ll have many lively exchanges in the future, but it would be downright churlish of me not to acknowledge that my attempts to show that the neutral theory could not account for 22.4 million mutations arising in the human lineage over the last five million years have failed. I also wish to state that I had no intention of giving any offense to Professor Moran in our exchange of views, and that I have always striven to remain as polite as possible, while publicly disagreeing with him. The next time I’m dining out, I shall order a glass of red wine and silently toast him.

Before I finish this post, I’d like to quote a passage from Dr. Kozulic’s 2011 paper, Proteins and Genes, Singletons and Species – a paper which I have cited on numerous occasions, on Uncommon Descent:

If just 200 unique proteins are present in each species, the probability of their simultaneous appearance is one against at least 104,000. [The] Probabilistic resources of our universe are much, much smaller; they allow for a maximum of 10149 events [158] and thus could account for a one-time simultaneous appearance of at most 7 unique proteins. The alternative, a sequential appearance of singletons, would require that the descendants of one family live through hundreds of “macromolecular miracles” to become a new species – again a scenario of exceedingly low probability. Therefore, now one can say that each species is a result of a Biological Big Bang; to reserve that term just for the first living organism [21] is not justified anymore.

The fallacy in the logic here should now be apparent. There is no reason to suppose that one singleton has to be fixed in the population before another one can be. The paper has therefore failed to demonstrate that speciation is an event that lies beyond the reach of chance.

An excellent case can be made that not only the emergence of life, but also key events in the history of life such as the Cambrian explosion, in which 30 novel body types emerged over a relatively short span of 20 million years, were events whose occurrence lies far beyond the reach of chance. Intelligent Design is on very strong ground here. However, I now believe that the argument that speciation itself is equivalent to a Biological Big Bang is a much weaker one. The origin of orphan genes remains an ongoing scientific mystery, but we should be wary of making a mountain out of a molehill. The imputation of design in this case would require much stronger supporting calculations than we have seen to date, and the mathematics contained in these calculations also needs to be very carefully scrutinized. During this time of scrutiny, we must be our own harshest critics. In a 2013 post on Uncommon Descent, I suggested that the “edge of evolution” may lie at the species level, using the definition of “species” employed in Dr. Kozulic’s paper. It appears that I spoke too soon. I think it is fair to say that the question of where the edge of evolution lies has now been thrown open again.

Comments
Well, now you have some idea why scientists get annoyed with IDists. Before, we were being told that we should take this bogusness seriously because the allegedly esteemed Dr. Kozulic was leveling the criticism. Turns out he had no idea what he was talking out. This sort of thing goes on with almost every ID claim, what's almost unique here is that the IDist backed off -- after several days of epic confusion, aspersions being cast at the evolutionists trying to point out the errors, and even at Sal Cordova! The main problem scientists have with ID isn't about atheism/theism or whatever. It's about the general incompetence of the biology arguments of IDists.NickMatzke_UD
April 12, 2014
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Hi gpuccio, Thank you for your very thoughtful comments. I'd like to make it clear that I remain extremely skeptical of the idea that a protein can acquire a new function as a result of an unguided natural process. Dr. Kozulic stated in his 2011 paper: "If just 200 unique proteins are present in each species, the probability of their simultaneous appearance is one against at least 10^4,000." He then went on to say that the idea of them appearing sequentially wouldn't work either. It is the latter statement that I am querying. If Dr. Kozulic is mistaken on this point, then the odds of the 200-odd proteins that characterize a new species appearing in a lineage over a period of a few million years can no longer be calculated. Hence we don't know enough to say it's impossible. Hence we cannot show mathematically that speciation marks the edge of evolution. I should add that in his 2011 paper, Dr. Kozulic uses a very conservative figure of 1 in 10^20 for the odds of a single protein suddenly appearing as a result of an unguided process. Dr. Axe uses a different figure of about 1 in 10^77. The two figures are strikingly different in their implications: it's likely that there have been far more than 10^20 "trial events" on the primordial Earth, but there could not have been anywhere near 10^77 events. This obviously affects the mathematics of speciation, too. I should say that I believe speciation may well mark the edge of evolution, and I'd be quite happy if the evidence showed it did. I'd just like to see a good mathematical demonstration of that point. I hope that clears up matters.vjtorley
April 12, 2014
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Barb, I'm going to run that paper by Johanan Raatz and see if I can get any additional information for you.bornagain77
April 12, 2014
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Timaeus,
He wants to set up a simple default position: if fundamentalism isn’t true, then atheism is true.
Last Saturday night I went to a play which celebrated the life of a famous American author. It was basically a reading of the author's thoughts during the author's life as interpreted by the playwright. The playwright took the published works and letters of the author and then wrote the play. I left the play with the following two thoughts, the author was a fantastic wordsmith and often wrote very entertaining prose and poetry and second the author's thinking was essentially vacuous. Nearly all that the author said was based on taking the opposite side of the conventional wisdom of the time. One of the expressed viewpoints was that 19th century restrictive religious dogma that was repressive obviously meant that there was no God at all. Another was that repressive doctrines on sex meant that there should be no restrictions on sex at all. There were a couple others in the same vein, namely, I find this sort of activity repressive, so the complete opposite must be the best way. We find similar thinking everywhere in our society. One common one is that, someone will point out the problem with some aspect of capitalism and the solutions is to get rid of capitalism and establish some sort of socialism. I am sure others here can point to other ideas which have similar origins.jerry
April 12, 2014
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I have some questions that maybe someone who is following this in detail can answer. It would be helpful in trying to understand just what is being agreed to.
Just what is being postulated by the neutral theory of evolution?
Does it say that novel proteins are being developed? Or is it saying that proteins are just being modified over time and there is no leaving the island of functionality. Or is it better to say that new coding regions are being modified by mutations a little bit at a time and consequently the proteins expressed will be slightly different over time?
And if this is true are the new proteins not substantially different from the previous proteins in function? Aren't we just talking about different alleles of the same coding region?
My reading on this which might be very wrong is that there is species X about 5-7 million years ago and somehow this species becomes divided in some way, probably geographically, so that the two or more populations are unable to inner breed. Let's call these populations, X1 and X2. And over time the neutral theory is modifying each population so that there will be a time when they will not be able to breed with each other even if they found each other again and if they wanted to. So X1 becomes species Y and X2 becomes species Z.
Is the neutral theory saying that the only difference between Y and Z is that there will be similar coding regions in each genome that will code for different proteins. These different proteins will explain the different characteristics of Y and Z.
Does genetic drift say that there might have been 2 or more alleles at a specific coding region in species X but that only one variation will now appear in species Y and a different variation will appear in species Z. And if that is true what does the two different alleles do in terms of explaining behavioral characteristics between Y and Z. Or is what is being postulated is that a new allele will appear in one of the two species through a mutation and that this new allele may become fixed through genetic drift? I assume the neutral theory will not explain completely unrelated coding regions in Y and Z but only those coding regions differences that could feasibly arise by small changes in a specific region over time. Also what type of mutations are we talking about? Are we talking about SNP's or are we talking about the whole gamut of Allen MacNeill's engines of variation?
I always thought the neutral theory discussions were a red herring and said so on another thread about this topic. From what I am reading it sounds like the neutral theory is a whole lot about nothing. The real issues lie somewhere else.
Could someone explain why I am wrong on this?jerry
April 12, 2014
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JLAfan writes, "Barb, See post # 20. I know that you don’t accept a universe formed from the quantum vacuum because your god won’t allow it." A universe formed from a quantum vacuum is not nothing. Where did the quantum vacuum come from? A universe that simply appeared from "nothing" goes against all rational thought and experimental science. The ZPF mentioned above by BA77 doesn't appear in the blog post I linked. However, they do mention the cosmological constant, which they take to be non-zero. The post goes on to show what the cosmological constant is in their new(ish) theory:
What plays the role of the cosmological constant in Dongshan and co’s new theory? Interestingly, these guys say a quantity known as the quantum potential plays the role of cosmological constant in the new solutions. This potential comes from an idea called pilot-wave theory developed in the mid-20th century by the physicist David Bohm. This theory reproduces all of the conventional predictions of quantum mechanics but at the price of accepting an additional term known as the quantum potential. The theory has the effect of making quantum mechanics entirely deterministic since the quantum potential can be used to work out things like the actual position of the particle. However, mainstream physicists have never taken to Bohm’s idea because its predictions are identical to the conventional version of the theory so there is no experimental way of telling them apart. However, it forces physicists to accept a probabilistic explanation for the nature of reality, something they are generally happy to accept.
Barb
April 12, 2014
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wallstreeter (33): jlafan2001 DOES want atheism to be true. Why else would he refuse to investigate, not only the technical scientific literature that counts against his current position, but the more reflective writings produced by philosophically and theologically acute scientists? And why else would he refuse to investigate the profound religious literature of the ages? By artificially limiting the possible alternatives to shallow scientific materialism and shallow fundamentalism, he rules out the deepest reflections of truly thoughtful scientists (scientists such as Newton and Kepler and Heisenberg and Polanyi, as opposed to one-dimensional "skeptics" like Krauss and Moran and Dawkins), and he rules out the deepest thoughts of truly great religious writers (thinkers such as Plato, Plotinus, Augustine, Aquinas, Sankara, Ramanuja, Kierkegaard, Buber, etc., as opposed to Gish, Morris, and Ham). He clearly does not want the deepest thoughts about either nature or God to gain access to his soul. He wants to set up a simple default position: if fundamentalism isn't true, then atheism is true. And since he believes he can prove that fundamentalism isn't true, he's got his warrant for atheism, regardless of how bad his scientific arguments for Darwinism are. So he has no motive to improve his scientific understanding, and no motive for investigating the case for God that doesn't come from literalist-inerrantist exegesis. Why would he set up such a false dichotomy (between narrow fundamentalism and atheism), unless he was rigging the argument so that it would be easy to show that God did not exist? Is jlafan2001 conscious of any intellectual or personal dishonesty here? He might not have been, at the beginning, when he was first revolting against fundamentalism. But it is now a year or two since his break with fundamentalism, and he has had plenty of time to investigate more sophisticated understandings of science, and deeper forms of religion. He hasn't availed himself of that time. The only reasonable conclusion is that he doesn't any longer want to be talked out of atheism. He is now comfortable there. This makes sense; fundamentalists tend not to be seekers. They tend to want black-and-white answers. Then, when their religion collapses, that same tendency persists, and they go for atheism, because it also is a black-and-white answer. Jlafan2001 liked simple answers when he was a fundamentalist, and he likes simple answers now. He doesn't want to be a seeker, reading, and learning, and wrestling all his life with what is true. He wants to take a clear side, as he did as a young fundamentalist. He's chosen to take the side of Panda's Thumb, Pharyngula, Dawkins, Coyne, Krauss, Tyson, etc., for the same reason that he once chose to take the side of Ham, Gish, Morris, etc. The existential stretching of the life of a seeker is not for him. He wants a religious formula. And I could live with this, if atheism were merely his private choice. It is his sanctimoniousness about his atheism, his triumphalism over having rejected his fundamentalist past, his glee at attacking the Bible, his image of himself as a crusader for science, his self-induced delusion that he has reached his conclusions by considering all the evidence impartially, etc., that I find offensive. We have had people here, such as Kantian Naturalist, who have made intelligent arguments for religious unbelief. Jlafan2001 makes unintelligent arguments for religious unbelief. And that's because he doesn't really want to wrestle any longer with the big issues; he just wants atheism to be true.Timaeus
April 12, 2014
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Of related note to Barb's 'universe from nothing' paper. I think the present paper Barb cited suffers the same fatal flaw as Krauss and Hawking's previous attempts to get around the beginning of the universe did.
The Universe Is Not Eternal – Johanan Raatz – March 1, 2014 Excerpt: One thing known for certain about quantum gravity is something called the holographic principle. Precisely put, the holographic principle tells us that the entropy of a region of space (measured in terms of information) is directly proportional to a quarter of its surface area. The volume of this region is then actually a hologram of this information on its surface. Except this tells us something interesting about the universe as well. Entropy, or the amount of disorder present, always increases with time. In fact not only is this law inviolate, it is also how the flow of time is defined. Without entropy, there is no way to discern forwards and backwards in time. But if the holographic principle links the universe’s entropy and its horizon area then going back in time, all of space-time eventually vanishes to nothing at zero entropy. Thus Carroll’s argument is unsound. We already have enough knowledge about what happens beyond the BVG theorem that Craig cites. The universe is not eternal but created. It is interesting to note that this also undermines claims made by atheists like Hawking and Krauss that the universe could have fluctuated into existence from nothing. Their argument rests on the assumption that there was a pre-existent zero-point field or ZPF. The only trouble is that the physics of a ZPF requires a space-time to exist in. No space-time means no zero-point field, and without a zero-point field, the universe can not spontaneously fluctuate into existence. http://blog.proofdirectory.org/2014/03/universe-not-eternal/
And remember, atheists have been fighting tooth and nail against the evidence for a beginning of the universe ever since Einstein added his 'fudge factor' to his equation:
"Much later, when I was discussing cosmological problems with Einstein, he remarked that the introduction of the cosmological term was the biggest blunder of his life." — George Gamow, My World Line, 1970 Evidence For The Big Bang - Michael Strauss - video https://vimeo.com/91775973 Entire Video Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God - Michael Strauss - video https://vimeo.com/9195703 Big Bang Exterminator Wanted, Will Train - Denyse O'Leary - October 20, 2013 Excerpt: "Perhaps the best argument in favor of the thesis that the Big Bang supports theism is the obvious unease with which it is greeted by some atheist physicists. At times this has led to scientific ideas, such as continuous creation or an oscillating universe, being advanced with a tenacity which so exceeds their intrinsic worth that one can only suspect the operation of psychological forces lying very much deeper than the usual academic desire of a theorist to support his/her theory." Cosmologist Christopher Isham http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/10/big_bang_exterm077961.html
It is also interesting to point out that a 'hypothetical' geometry is postulated in the 'universe from nothing' paper, but when considering our present geometry that we currently live in, the 'real' geometry that we currently live in and that we can actually test empirically and thus remain 'scientific' in our conclusions, then our present geometry reveals something very special to us. Namely, that consciousness is central to the universe:
The Galileo Affair and Life/Consciousness as the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even a central, position within material reality. [14] 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
Also of note:
The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white
The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of 'observable' length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle. Verse:
Job 38:19-20 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?”
bornagain77
April 12, 2014
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OT: Fossil says:
Furthermore as a YEC with the exception of the age of the earth as a mass I find a lot of evidence for life being rather young on this planet. Such things as the presence of soft tissue and segments of intact DNA in fossils dated by radiometric means to more than one hundred million years to me testify that life is not millions of years old after all nor do I think many arguments for preservation are that strong.
Fossil, I'm just curious about one thing. You seem to believe that life is young as are the fossils, especially those with intact DNA in them. Wouldn't that mean also that the rocks within which these fossils are buried are also young? So most of the Grand Canyon would have been laid down in the recent past according to this thinking, right? So your reason for believing in an old earth is what? Distant starlight? Other old rocks that don't have fossils in them? Just curious. Thanks.tjguy
April 12, 2014
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Correct quierius It's actually worse then magic , and people like JLAFAN swallowed the lie up without actually thinking about what it said. Dawkins was heckled in Australia during his debate with cardinal pell. Out of non being comes non being. To believe otherwise is to believe in magic, but at least with the magician we have the magician, the hat and the rabbit.wallstreeter43
April 12, 2014
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VJ: I would sum up how I see the situation as follows: a) You were probably wrong in your argument about the number of mutations from chinps to humans, and its relation to neutral theory. You did well admitting that. b) You were not wrong about speciation and the edge of evolution and all the rest. That has nothing to do with the first problem. Therefore, you were wrong in saying that you were wrong about those things!gpuccio
April 12, 2014
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Salvador Cordova, March 31, 2014:
Hats off to VJTorley for vindicating claims I’ve made about neutral theory (non-Darwinian evolution) for almost the last eight years at UD.
Vincent Torley, March 30, 2014: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fixation-the-neutral-theorys-achilles-heel/Mung
April 11, 2014
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Nicely stated, wallstreeter43. The "nothing" that we need to consider is the "doesn't exist" variety of nothing. A nothing that has no time, thus no probability. An example of a "doesn't exist" kind of nothing is *** the Easter Bunny ***. To speculate of about quantum states that result in Something from the Nothing, is equivalent of crediting the Easter Bunny as the source for our existence. I'm not completely convinced that even Darwinists could swallow that. ;-) -QQuerius
April 11, 2014
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Salvador Cardoza:
Hats off to VJTorley for vindicating claims I’ve made about neutral theory (non-Darwinian evolution) for almost the last eight years at UD.
https://uncommondescent.com/genetics/fixation-rate-what-about-breaking-rate/ Vincent, do you think that you've vindicated Salvador's claims about neutral theory? Salvador, what claims have you made about neutral theory for the last 8 years here at UD that were vindicated by Vincent's post?Mung
April 11, 2014
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Salvador Cardoza:
What I would have done different over the course of these discussions when I provided a link my essay on Rupe and Sanford, was to have specifically highlighted this discovery of the Mendel team:
In this thread where did you provided a link to that essay? I can't find it.Mung
April 11, 2014
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JLAFAN , ksince krauss himself has constantly backpeddled when he is confronted by people of common sense about the universe coming from nothing the weasel krauss then admits that he isn't talking about a literal nothing, and David Albert destroys him on this fact. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/a-universe-from-nothing-by-lawrence-m-krauss.html?_r=0 Krauss seems to be thinking that these vacuum states amount to the relativistic-­quantum-field-theoretical version of there not being any physical stuff at all. And he has an argument — or thinks he does — that the laws of relativistic quantum field theories entail that vacuum states are unstable. And that, in a nutshell, is the account he proposes of why there should be something rather than nothing. But that’s just not right. Relativistic-quantum-field-theoretical vacuum states — no less than giraffes or refrigerators or solar systems — are particular arrangements of elementary physical stuff. The true relativistic-quantum-field-­theoretical equivalent to there not being any physical stuff at all isn’t this or that particular arrangement of the fields — what it is (obviously, and ineluctably, and on the contrary) is the simple absence of the fields! The fact that some arrangements of fields happen to correspond to the existence of particles and some don’t is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that some of the possible arrangements of my fingers happen to correspond to the existence of a fist and some don’t. And the fact that particles can pop in and out of existence, over time, as those fields rearrange themselves, is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that fists can pop in and out of existence, over time, as my fingers rearrange themselves. And none of these poppings — if you look at them aright — amount to anything even remotely in the neighborhood of a creation from nothing. Krauss, mind you, has heard this kind of talk before, and it makes him crazy. A century ago, it seems to him, nobody would have made so much as a peep about referring to a stretch of space without any material particles in it as “nothing.” And now that he and his colleagues think they have a way of showing how everything there is could imaginably have emerged from a stretch of space like that, the nut cases are moving the goal posts. He complains that “some philosophers and many theologians define and redefine ‘nothing’ as not being any of the versions of nothing that scientists currently describe,” and that “now, I am told by religious critics that I cannot refer to empty space as ‘nothing,’ but rather as a ‘quantum vacuum,’ to distinguish it from the philosopher’s or theologian’s idealized ‘nothing,’ ” and he does a good deal of railing about “the intellectual bankruptcy of much of theology and some of modern philosophy.” But all there is to say about this, as far as I can see, is that Krauss is dead wrong and his religious and philosophical critics are absolutely right. Who cares what we would or would not have made a peep about a hundred years ago? We were wrong a hundred years ago. We know more now. And if what we formerly took for nothing turns out, on closer examination, to have the makings of protons and neutrons and tables and chairs and planets and solar systems and galaxies and universes in it, then it wasn’t nothing, and it couldn’t have been nothing, in the first place. And the history of science — if we understand it correctly — gives us no hint of how it might be possible to imagine otherwise. JLAFAN , now I know that instead of admitting that lawrence krauss was 100% completely wrong !my our gonna let him slide! not because you are following the evidence in an unbiased manner but because you are totally biased in favor of the secular view. I have also showed you in our conversation a on veridical Nde's and the shroud of turin in that you are willing to follow non peer reviewed evidence in favor of someone as ignorant and biased as Collin berry .. JLAFAN I think you really need to take a good hard look at how yoir approaching these subjects. We have been friends for a whileand as a friend I have to point these things out to you. You know that I know the shroud of turin well and I have constantly called you out on your bias against the shroud and anything that favors theism . It's almost like you want atheism to be true.wallstreeter43
April 11, 2014
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RE: Mendel's Accountant Gibson, Baumgardner, Brewer and Sanford provide the following link in their paper: http://www.MendelsAccountant.info My question is, where's the source code? Apparently it's written in Fortran?Mung
April 11, 2014
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JLAfan2001
Follow BA77 link which will lead you to the link that Barb has posted. I would say that she doesn’t agree with it since she is a theist.
I don't understand. Krauss thinks that a universe can come from out of nothing. You think that Barb disagrees with him, as well she should. Any rational person would know that nothing can begin to exist without a cause. Mathematics has nothing to do with it. With whom do you agree? Barb or Krauss? Presumably, you agree with Krauss since you imply that he should not have been mocked for his position and since you opined that "this is a bad time for UD and ID in general."StephenB
April 11, 2014
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Sal @26: Great comments worth chewing on. Your takeaway in particular:
Kimura’s 2nd result (fixation of deleterious mutations) unwittingly destroyed Darwin’s claims that NS will purge the bad and just keep adding the good. NO! Real evolution in the wild keeps losing the good, and just keeps adding the bad!
This is of course precisely what any sane engineer would expect if we started introducing random changes into a highly-functional, highly-specified, sophisticated system. But of course, we mustn't listen to the engineers, because . . . well, they're engineers. And biology is . . . you know . . . biology.Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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JLAfan2001 @3:
First, Eric Anderson gets refuted on a self-replicating molecule with function.
Nope. But we do have JLAfan2001 coming here to make misrepresentations. :) So far, I've been supremely vindicated and no-one has offered a single example of a self-replicating molecule. That, notwithstanding that I explicitly granted that such a thing might be possible in principle. But, unfortunately, it appears the nuances may escape some. I don't want to take vjtorley's thread OT, so if you have some refutation to make or something of substance to contribute, you're invited over to the other threads to try and make it. Or just let us know what self-replicating molecule you've discovered, and I'll be the first to nominate you to the Nobel Committee to great fanfare. https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/in-the-beginning-were-the-particles-thoughts-on-abiogenesis/ https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/thinking-upside-down-the-abiogenesis-paradigm/#comment-495959Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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Just to explain - as has been explained to Krauss, and others, over and over again (and which Krauss has understood, but he's responded by punting rather than making a big deal out of it.) There is no scientific proof of a universe coming from "nothing", nor mathematical. When scientists, including the ones in the paper being referenced, talk about 'nothing' it's utterly distinct from the 'nothing' that's relevant to the philosophical question: it's a something, a set of physical laws and states. Which leads us to ask, where that came from, and if it came from something else, etc. On and on until we get to the necessarily existent, or claims of 'it's just magic, sometimes things just are and have no explanation', etc. Sorry to derail VJT's thread, but this was being discussed and it's worth a mention. See: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/02/forgetting-nothing-learning-nothing.htmlnullasalus
April 11, 2014
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I'm certainly not sold that mathematics has lent any rigid support to the modern synthesis of neo-Darwinism so as to demarcate is as a genuine scientific theory instead of the pseudo-science that it really is.
"For many years I thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have a proof that Darwinian evolution works." Gregory Chaitin - Proving Darwin 2012 - Highly Respected Mathematician Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 Oxford University Seeks Mathemagician — May 5th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: "Grand theories in physics are usually expressed in mathematics. Newton’s mechanics and Einstein’s theory of special relativity are essentially equations. Words are needed only to interpret the terms. Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection has obstinately remained in words since 1859." … http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/05/05/oxford-university-seeks-mathemagician/ "On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin's theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?" (Berlinski, D., "A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics," Commentary, July 8, 2003) WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt: If evolutionary biologists are really Seekers of the Truth, they need to focus more on finding the mathematical regularities of biology, following in the giant footsteps of Sewall Wright, JBS Haldane, Ronald Fisher and so on. The messiness of biology has made it relatively hard to discern the mathematical fundamentals of evolution. Perhaps the laws of biology are deductive consequences of the laws of physics and chemistry. Perhaps natural selection is not a statistical consequence of physics, but a new and fundamental physical law. Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468 Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin - February 27, 2012 Excerpt: "In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of 'natural selection' in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely 'scientific' and 'rational,' they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word 'chance', not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word 'miracle.'" Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html Murray Eden, as reported in “Heresy in the Halls of Biology: Mathematicians Question Darwinism,” Scientific Research, November 1967, p. 64. “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes32.html Oxford University Admits Darwinism's Shaky Math Foundation - May 2011 Excerpt: However, mathematical population geneticists mainly deny that natural selection leads to optimization of any useful kind. This fifty-year old schism is intellectually damaging in itself, and has prevented improvements in our concept of what fitness is. - On a 2011 Job Description for a Mathematician, at Oxford, to 'fix' the persistent mathematical problems with neo-Darwinism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/oxford_university_admits_darwi046351.html HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY - WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist12.htm
And all this is besides the fact that the modern synthesis itself is falsified empirically: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/information-killed-the-central-dogma-too/#comment-495996 Moreover, even if Darwinists were able to come up with a mathematical demarcation criteria down to the level of physics (which they won't), so as to designate Darwinism as a real scientific theory instead of a pseudo-science, they still would not prove that Darwinism was unguided (i.e. atheistic) since mathematics itself testifies to God's handiwork:
Mathematics and Physics – A Happy Coincidence? – William Lane Craig – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/9826382 1. If God did not exist the applicability of mathematics would be a happy coincidence. 2. The applicability of mathematics is not a happy coincidence. 3. Therefore, God exists.
Of humorous note:
“Darwin’s theory is easily the dumbest idea ever taken seriously by science." Granville Sewell - Professor Of Mathematics - University Of Texas - El Paso "You might think that a theory so profound would be laden with intimidating mathematical formulas and at least as difficult to master as Newton’s Mechanics or Einsteins Relativity. But such is not the case. Darwinism is the most accessible “scientific” theory ever proposed. It needs no math, no mastery of biology, no depth of understanding on any level. The dullest person can understand the basic story line: “Some mistakes are good. When enough good mistakes accumulate you get a new species. If you let the mistakes run long enough, you get every complicated living thing descending from one simple living thing in the beginning. There is no need for God in this process. In fact there is no need for God at all. So the Bible, which claims that God is important, is wrong.” You can be drunk, addled, or stupid and still understand this. And the real beauty of it is that when you first glimpse this revelation with its “aha!” moment, you feel like an Einstein yourself. You feel superior, far superior, to those religious nuts who still believe in God. Without having paid any dues whatsoever, you breathe the same rarified air as the smartest people who have ever lived." – Laszlo Bencze
bornagain77
April 11, 2014
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What I would have done different over the course of these discussions when I provided a link my essay on Rupe and Sanford, was to have specifically highlighted this discovery of the Mendel team:
We first confirm that our numerical simulations correctly tallying the fixation of neutral mutations. We show that neutral mutations go to fixation just as predicted by conventional theory (i.e., over deep time the fixation rate approached the gametic mutation rate). Johns Sanford, Christopher Rupe, the rest of the Mendel Team
But some qualification. They obviously were setting this up as a Proof by Contradiction. If things fix as easily as Kimura asserted, we should all be dead 100 times over. Their simulation wasn't based on equations, but was built to validate or refute equations! All they did was have a population, added mutations to it, tracked the mutations over millions of years of simulated time, and saw if the mutations fixed. The model was simply: mom has X number of mutations and so did Dad. The put an identifier on the mutation, and see if at the end of millions of years some of the mutations got fixed, and then they counted them up. Thus they proved Kimura's 1st result:
We first confirm that our numerical simulations correctly tallying the fixation of neutral mutations. We show that neutral mutations go to fixation just as predicted by conventional theory (i.e., over deep time the fixation rate approached the gametic mutation rate). Johns Sanford, Christopher Rupe, the rest of the Mendel Team
Kimura's second result was that if the mutation is slightly deleterious according to S less than 4ne Then 50% of these deleterious mutations would fix in the population. Kondrashov tried to say there might be cleaning out mechanism to save the day, but the simulation didn't bear that out. The fact we have now many studies saying huge amounts of genomes have had dysfunction made permanent in the species (loss of stomachs, eyes, legs, wings, proteins, DNA, who knows what else), the result of the Mendel simulation is believable. Some have criticized Mendel's accountant as being unrealistic, but that is just a charade. Why aren't Darwinists publishing their simulations with the RIGHT parameters? I pointed out the rather humorous fact that it is the creationists that were most eager to make computational population genetic simulations and publish the results: ICC 2013, Calling All Darwinsts, Where is Your Best PopGen Simulation. The Mendel program has all sorts of features. The depth that the 10 or so geneticists and engineers put to the program is incredible. I believe in some cases some of the sims had to be run on super computers. Kimura's 2nd result (fixation of deleterious mutations) unwittingly destroyed Darwin's claims that NS will purge the bad and just keep adding the good. NO! Real evolution in the wild keeps losing the good, and just keeps adding the bad! The only way out of this is for Darwinists to say, loss of stomachs, eyes, legs, wings, blood, proteins, etc. is "beneficial" and so to is acquisition of inherited diseases like tay-sachs, juvenile diabetes, cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, etc. "Beneficial" indeed :roll: Saving the Darwinian paradigm through constant equivocation of what "beneficial" really means. My apologies to Dr. Torley if I gave the impression I that I didn't think fixation rates were equal to mutation rates. It was not my intention, but I hope these discussions have shown that ID has rich treasures to find in population genetics.scordova
April 11, 2014
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Barb See post # 20. I know that you don't accept a universe formed from the quantum vacuum because your god won't allow it.JLAfan2001
April 11, 2014
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In this thread Sal apologizes for not clearly telling VJT he was wrong when Salvador apparently knew that VJT was wrong, while on another thread Sal whines about being castigated for having the temerity to tell VJT that he was wrong.Mung
April 11, 2014
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I think admitting we are wrong when we are is not only healthy for us mentally but also builds trust that we are not a bunch of deceivers out to get the gullible. Everyone makes mistakes we are not always right – we are fallible humans not machines. That being said I think we need to look at the big picture. One might show me an interpretation of a plausible lineage in one small part of the fossil record but overall I believe in what Dr. Gould called “punctuated equilibrium” and with the idea of many explosions within the fossil record where things come into existence suddenly and then basically goes into stasis. I also think what ID has to say about those explosions that they occur very rapidly with no precursors is also valid. Along that line to me the whole understanding of human origins seems to be still up in the air and very confused with very little precious evidence connecting man with apes. Even Dr. Lenski’s experiments after some 60000 generations only changed bacterial diet which humans have also done (Lactose intolerance) within far less number of generations. No one has noticed that those bacteria have changed into anything else than what they were originally nor has anyone ever seen a dog pop out a cat or vice versa. Besides breeders know very well that a dog or a cat can be altered on so much then either the process stops or difficulties set in (there is nothing more heartier than the Heinz variety mutt) If something is mutated almost without exception it usually has difficulty surviving rather than thriving. Furthermore as a YEC with the exception of the age of the earth as a mass I find a lot of evidence for life being rather young on this planet. Such things as the presence of soft tissue and segments of intact DNA in fossils dated by radiometric means to more than one hundred million years to me testify that life is not millions of years old after all nor do I think many arguments for preservation are that strong. If what these kind of things show are true than the whole discussion of neutral theory, in my opinion, goes up in smoke. If man has not been in existence as long as science says he has there is no way he could have evolved from something pre-ape to what we are now and to me there is no theory in existence that can show how that could possibly have happened within a much shorter time frame than theorized. Just ask Dr. Meyer concerning the Cambrian explosion.fossil
April 11, 2014
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JLAfan2001, "And Barb posts a link that we have mathematical proof that the universe came from nothing validating Krauss after all the mocking he took." Hold up a second. I posted a link to a blog which had an article that I found interesting. I DID NOT state that I believed it. The scientists believe that they have mathematical proof of a spontaneously appearing universe, which they get from a particular theorem. There aren't enough Holiday Inn Express hotels in the universe for me to begin to understand the math involved. As near as I can tell from a cursory reading, the universe didn't so much "come into being from nothing", but, due to quantum fluctuations, some previously existing energy or matter state(s), multiple branes, or whatever subsequently evolved or merged into the universe that we observe today. Going back for another reading I note that it says that the two branes were also created from nothing. In the universe, even in a vacuum, particles pop in and out of being in pairs of particle/antiparticle. They don't exist for very long and don't generally impact the larger scope of things. However, it is theorectically possible--at least as far as this article is concerned--that such particle/antiparticle creation at some point in the distant past appeared in just the right place to begin a chain reaction with other particle/antiparticle pairs and create 'space'. This theory expands upon vacuum fluctuations and explains the 'how', or the hypotheses on 'how' at least.Barb
April 11, 2014
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Scordova, Turncoat? Hardly. I greatly appreciate your holding the ID camp to the same standards we hold those on the other side of the debate to.lpadron
April 11, 2014
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StephenB Follow BA77 link which will lead you to the link that Barb has posted. I would say that she doesn't agree with it since she is a theist.JLAfan2001
April 11, 2014
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JLAfan2001
Barb posts a link that we have mathematical proof that the universe came from nothing validating Krauss after all the mocking he took.
Could you point me in the right direction so that I can evaluate your claim? Are you saying that Barb agrees with Krauss? Are you saying that mathematics can disprove causality? Are you saying that a universe can come from nothing? Please clarify.StephenB
April 11, 2014
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