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When I’m wrong

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In a recent post in which I questioned the claim that over 100 mutations get fixed in the human population in every generation, I remarked, “I’m happy to be proved wrong.” Guess what? I meant it. After weighing the evidence presented on both sides, I’ve decided that there are no good mathematical arguments showing that 130 mutations couldn’t have been fixed in each generation of the human lineage, over the past five million years. Although the equations of population genetics are based on assumptions, these assumptions have been tested – and validated – for bacteria. And while the mutation rate per individual per generation is five orders of magnitude greater for human beings than for bacteria, the fact that the human genome is about 1,000 times larger than that of a bacterium, coupled with the fact that there are multiple cell divisions per generation in animals, explains why humans would have a much higher mutation rate. Of course, arguments from extrapolation aren’t always valid, and for all I know, there might be any number of reasons why fixation rates of 100 per generation for human beings (as predicted by the equations of population genetics) are biologically implausible. But the onus is clearly on the skeptic to explain why we shouldn’t believe the claim that 100 mutations are fixed in the human population in every generation. Dr. Kozulic (who is a well-published biochemist) is a prominent skeptic; and in my last post, Branko Kozulic responds to Professor Moran, I gave him the opportunity to state his case. Since Dr. Kozulic is from Croatia, I also assisted him in presenting his argument as clearly as possible, in English. After sifting through the replies by wd400 and Nick Matzke, I have come to the conclusion that the arguments that Dr. Kozulic and I presented in our post failed to establish that a fixation rate of 100 per generation for human beings, even during the Paleolithic era, would be infeasible. To uninitiated laypeople like myself, such a high rate of fixation for a very thinly scattered Stone Age population sounds highly counter-intuitive at first sight, but that does not make it untrue. After weighing the arguments, I now think that the neutral theory of evolution can account for the number of mutations fixed in the human population over the last five million years (roughly 22.4 million).

My concession on this point does not mean that I think the neutral theory of evolution can account for the pattern of fixation events observed in the human lineage, let alone the existence of orphan genes. Those are separate issues, and should be addressed as such.

After reading Professor Moran’s recent post, On being “outed” as a closet Darwinist, I would like to make it clear that I am fully aware that Moran publicly disagrees with many of Darwin’s ideas. In our previous post, Dr. Kozulic and I characterized Professor Moran as a “Darwinist” in one important respect only, as we expressly stated. To illustrate what I mean, I’d like to quote from his 2006 essay, Macroevolution:

The Creationists would have us believe there is some magical barrier separating selection and drift within a species from the evolution of new species and new characteristics. Not only is this imagined barrier invisible to most scientists but, in addition, there is abundant evidence that no such barrier exists. We have numerous examples that show how diverse species are connected by a long series of genetic changes.

If Professor Moran can think of a handy label to describe someone who holds such a view, then I shall gladly use it in future, when referring to him. “Gradualist” is a term that comes to mind, but I don’t think Professor Moran would appreciate that label, either. Moran also rejects the view that microevolution is sufficient to account for macroevolution, as his essay makes clear.

Professor Moran and I disagree on many things, and I’m sure we’ll have many lively exchanges in the future, but it would be downright churlish of me not to acknowledge that my attempts to show that the neutral theory could not account for 22.4 million mutations arising in the human lineage over the last five million years have failed. I also wish to state that I had no intention of giving any offense to Professor Moran in our exchange of views, and that I have always striven to remain as polite as possible, while publicly disagreeing with him. The next time I’m dining out, I shall order a glass of red wine and silently toast him.

Before I finish this post, I’d like to quote a passage from Dr. Kozulic’s 2011 paper, Proteins and Genes, Singletons and Species – a paper which I have cited on numerous occasions, on Uncommon Descent:

If just 200 unique proteins are present in each species, the probability of their simultaneous appearance is one against at least 104,000. [The] Probabilistic resources of our universe are much, much smaller; they allow for a maximum of 10149 events [158] and thus could account for a one-time simultaneous appearance of at most 7 unique proteins. The alternative, a sequential appearance of singletons, would require that the descendants of one family live through hundreds of “macromolecular miracles” to become a new species – again a scenario of exceedingly low probability. Therefore, now one can say that each species is a result of a Biological Big Bang; to reserve that term just for the first living organism [21] is not justified anymore.

The fallacy in the logic here should now be apparent. There is no reason to suppose that one singleton has to be fixed in the population before another one can be. The paper has therefore failed to demonstrate that speciation is an event that lies beyond the reach of chance.

An excellent case can be made that not only the emergence of life, but also key events in the history of life such as the Cambrian explosion, in which 30 novel body types emerged over a relatively short span of 20 million years, were events whose occurrence lies far beyond the reach of chance. Intelligent Design is on very strong ground here. However, I now believe that the argument that speciation itself is equivalent to a Biological Big Bang is a much weaker one. The origin of orphan genes remains an ongoing scientific mystery, but we should be wary of making a mountain out of a molehill. The imputation of design in this case would require much stronger supporting calculations than we have seen to date, and the mathematics contained in these calculations also needs to be very carefully scrutinized. During this time of scrutiny, we must be our own harshest critics. In a 2013 post on Uncommon Descent, I suggested that the “edge of evolution” may lie at the species level, using the definition of “species” employed in Dr. Kozulic’s paper. It appears that I spoke too soon. I think it is fair to say that the question of where the edge of evolution lies has now been thrown open again.

Comments
tjguy, I answered Barb's concerns here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mathematics-challenges-naturalism-says-math-prof/#comment-495969bornagain77
April 11, 2014
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wd400, given the definition of "junk" you are using, most of the segments on my new hard drive probably qualify as junk too. So what.Mung
April 11, 2014
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wd400 states,,,
"one of the good arguments for the fact (ahem belief) most of our genome is junk."
I wonder if the following would be a good argument, in wd400's mind, that our genome is not mostly junk?
Do you believe Richard Dawkins exists? Excerpt: DNA is the best information storage mechanism known to man. A single pinhead of DNA contains as much information as could be stored on 2 million two-terabyte hard drives. http://creation.com/does-dawkins-exist Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Storing information in DNA - Test-tube data - Jan 26th 2013 Excerpt: Dr Goldman’s new scheme is significant in several ways. He and his team have managed to set a record (739.3 kilobytes) for the amount of unique information encoded. But it has been designed to do far more than that. It should, think the researchers, be easily capable of swallowing the roughly 3 zettabytes (a zettabyte is one billion trillion or 10^²¹ bytes) of digital data thought presently to exist in the world and still have room for plenty more. http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21570671-archives-could-last-thousands-years-when-stored-dna-instead-magnetic
I just can't seem to muster the blind faith that atheists have to believe that staggering complexity is an accident! :) Perhaps wd400 can help me become a true believer in Darwinian evolution by showing me a violation of the following null hypothesis so as to give me at least a small hint towards the feasibility of the unguided processes of Darwinian evolution to produce such an astonishing systems architecture?
The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 Excerpt of conclusion pg. 42: "To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662469/ Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC).,,, Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).,,, Testable hypotheses about FSC What testable empirical hypotheses can we make about FSC that might allow us to identify when FSC exists? In any of the following null hypotheses [137], demonstrating a single exception would allow falsification. We invite assistance in the falsification of any of the following null hypotheses: Null hypothesis #1 Stochastic ensembles of physical units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #2 Dynamically-ordered sequences of individual physical units (physicality patterned by natural law causation) cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #3 Statistically weighted means (e.g., increased availability of certain units in the polymerization environment) giving rise to patterned (compressible) sequences of units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #4 Computationally successful configurable switches cannot be set by chance, necessity, or any combination of the two, even over large periods of time. We repeat that a single incident of nontrivial algorithmic programming success achieved without selection for fitness at the decision-node programming level would falsify any of these null hypotheses. This renders each of these hypotheses scientifically testable. We offer the prediction that none of these four hypotheses will be falsified. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29 The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www-qa.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html Is Life Unique? David L. Abel - January 2012 Concluding Statement: The scientific method itself cannot be reduced to mass and energy. Neither can language, translation, coding and decoding, mathematics, logic theory, programming, symbol systems, the integration of circuits, computation, categorizations, results tabulation, the drawing and discussion of conclusions. The prevailing Kuhnian paradigm rut of philosophic physicalism is obstructing scientific progress, biology in particular. There is more to life than chemistry. All known life is cybernetic. Control is choice-contingent and formal, not physicodynamic. http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/
bornagain77
April 11, 2014
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During this time of scrutiny, we must be our own harshest critics.
^^^^^ |||||Mung
April 11, 2014
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JLA says:
And Barb posts a link that we have mathematical proof that the universe came from nothing validating Krauss after all the mocking he took.
Whoa! Mathematical proof of Krauss's tomfoolery? How in the world do you come up with that? My bet is that the equation has been rigged. How do we know their starting point accurately reflects reality? Me thinks you are far too easily persuaded, but I'm sure the math is over our heads. At least I know it is over mine.tjguy
April 11, 2014
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Is there some reason someone picked 5 million years? Ann Gauger suggests in her book that humans (homo sapiens) might be 1 million years old. The more common guess is that humans are perhaps 100,000 years old. And we have no direct ancestors. So exactly whose DNA has been randomly mutating for 5 million years?mahuna
April 11, 2014
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Well, I'm glad you've at least been able to admit your errors. JLAFAn, Indeed - that most of the genome diverges at near to the netural rate is one of the good arguments for the fact most of our genome is junk. If randomly swapping out these bases doesn't change anything then those bases can hardly be doing any sequence-specific functions.wd400
April 11, 2014
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Dr. Torley, You are indeed an individual of great integrity and courage. I wish I had been more forthright in asserting that the Mendel team by and large accepts for the sake of argument the tenets of neutral theory on mathematical grounds but not on functional grounds. I guess my mention of the Mendel team in the links I referred you to was buried in the long discussions. The team showed that the working assumption of neutral theory leads to functional disasters where abundant damage is "fixed" (made permanent) in the genomes of species. I feel guilty that if I been clearer and more articulate, I might have spared you having to make a retraction. ID isn't supported just by IC and CSI and critical analysis of OOL, it is supported by population genetics. And this has been unfortunately too obscure a topic, but evidence of ID is there in the study of the details. One evidence for ID is that huge amounts of damaged genes are "fixed" (Darwinian double-speak for 'made permanent', not really repaired, lol). Sharks and fish without stomachs, beetles without wings, snakes without legs, troglobites without eyes, maybe even one fish without hemoglobin, huge numbers of paralogous reduntdant genes gone. Though Darwinists would never concede it, when a species line goes completely extinct, it's genome is permanently "fixed" in the sense that the damage is made permanent. Maybe to appreciate why the Mendel team was pushing some elements of neutral theory, consider Darwin's statement:
natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers Charles Darwin
What neutral theory unwittingly demonstrated was not only does natural selection fail to preserve the good, it fails to keep the bad from becoming a permanent feature of the population (aka "fixed"). If the bad trait is almost neutral to selection, it can be treated as neutral, and thus the bad are guaranteed to be made permanent in the population. It essentially destroyed Darwinism as a mechanism of preserving design, and hence it becomes dubious that it can even make design in the first place. PS 1. You bailed me out of bad situation by posting this thread. I've unfortunately been getting a reputation as an ID turncoat because I don't refrain from being critical of claims by other ID proponents. I speak my conscience, even if I'm wrong. Thanks for helping me out. 2. You were faster than me, my penance was offered about 8 years after I first put forward my ideas: Admitting significant errors in my understanding of physics.scordova
April 11, 2014
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tragic mishap: Exactly! You have stated it very well :)gpuccio
April 11, 2014
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I will have to agree with gpuccio here. Neutral evolution doesn't help in the evolution of novel protein folds because there is no relation between which mutations get fixed and which are steps on the road to novel folds. This means ID theorists are completely justified in probability arguments based on protein folds, and that has virtually nothing to do with the current issue. ID has never denied that proteins can evolve neutrally. The probability barrier is erected by novel folds/function. In response, we have always been told that selection allows fixation of incrementally beneficial mutations, but those mutations are never made explicit and meanwhile evolutionary theory is abandoning selection altogether!tragic mishap
April 11, 2014
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JLAfan2001: Please, look at my post #6. Your comments are welcome.gpuccio
April 11, 2014
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VJ: I had not read this last statement of yours:
The fallacy in the logic here should now be apparent. There is no reason to suppose that one singleton has to be fixed in the population before another one can be. The paper has therefore failed to demonstrate that speciation is an event that lies beyond the reach of chance.
I don't agree, and I don't understand why you say that. IMO, the paraghraph you quote from Dr. Kozulic’s 2011 paper is perfectly correct. Please, see also my post #6. Could you please clarify the reasons for that statement? I can't see any connection between that conclusion and the discussion about neutral fixation. Please, explain.gpuccio
April 11, 2014
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VJ: I believe you have expressed your ideas very well, and in the end you have been convinced by the arguments of your interlocutors, and have clearly stated that. That is very good. I remain of the idea I have already expressed. Neutral mutations happen, and their number and fixation is of no real interest to ID theory, because neutral mutations, either fixed or not, are only a variation of random variation. They have no effect on the probabilistic evaluation of the emergence of functional outcomes, which is the only pertinent issue in ID theory. I think that the main reason why some in ID are hostile to the concept of neutral mutations is that they are a strong argument for common descent. So, I understand that those who don't accept CD have some difficulties to accept the neutral interpretation of much of the variation we observe in natural history. On the contrary, I accept CD (and I believe that you do, too), and I see in neutral mutation exactly one of the strongest arguments in favor if ID. The interpretation of the sequence diversity of similar proteins in various species is, at the same time, a strong argument for CD and a strong argument for ID. That's what is sometimes called the "big bang theory" of protein evolution. It means that new protein appear at the beginning of their history, at some definite time, and then, in the course of evolution, they traverse their own functional space: they change in sequence without changing much in structure and function. IOWs, they undergo neutral mutations. That is a strong argument for CD. But it is also a strong argument for ID. Indeed, it shows that translated genes cannot leave their own functional island, because negative selection acts against that. Only neutral variation is allowed. That's probably also the reason why synonymous mutations are more abundant than they should be: the simple fact is that many non synonymous mutations are really deleterious, and are selected against. So, we are back to the total failure of the neo darwinian algorithm. a) Functional, translated genes can only remain what they are, or change slightly. b) Non functional, non translated genes (such as pseudogenes or non coding DNA segments) can undergo any kind of variation, because variation is by definition neutral here. As the sequence is not functional and is not translated, it cannot be "seen" by NS, neither positively nor negatively. So, these non functional sequences can go anywhere in the search space, and they can be fixed at any time. Any sequence has the same probabilities of being fixed as any other sequence. Genetic drift is totally irrelevant. Therefore, arguing that a new complex functional sequence can be derived from a non functional sequence without a design intervention is like saying that new complex functional sequences can be found by a purely random walk. Which, as we know, is not true. That's why, when darwinists argue that functional proteins derive from non coding sequences by mutation and variation, they are really arguing for design, without knowing it.gpuccio
April 11, 2014
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Meant to say that the human genome would in fact be junk.JLAfan2001
April 11, 2014
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Another thing. If the neutral theory has been validated, wouldn't that be proof that most of the human genome is in fact just as WD400 and Moran has been saying? If that is the case, that would be another nail in ID's coffin.JLAfan2001
April 11, 2014
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Wow, this is a bad time for UD and ID in general. First, Eric Anderson gets refuted on a self-replicating molecule with function. Then, VJTorley gets refuted on the neutral theory. And Barb posts a link that we have mathematical proof that the universe came from nothing validating Krauss after all the mocking he took. SHHHH....Hear that? It's the sound of the gaps tightening. Torley, you said: "The paper has therefore failed to demonstrate that speciation is an event that lies beyond the reach of chance." "I think it is fair to say that the question of where the edge of evolution lies has now been thrown open again." Will you now admit that Neo-Darwinism is a valid, proven science and that there is no need for an intelligent designer or will you continue to fool the naive into thinking the opposite?JLAfan2001
April 11, 2014
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Dr. Torley, Over the years you have posted some of UD’s greatest hits, including its (by far) all time best seller. Your contributions here are priceless, and we look forward to many more flashes of Torley brilliance in the years to come. Your post here shows that not only do you have a penetrating mind, but also you are a man of integrity and strong character. Admitting a mistake can be one of the most difficult things we can do. This is especially the case when your interlocutors have been as boorish as Dr. Matzke.Barry Arrington
April 11, 2014
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I have been pondering this discussion of fixation due to drift. I find it very troubling to my darwinian brain to consider that "slightly beneficial" or "slightly deleterious" mutations are fixed not because of their advantage/disadvantage but due to drift alone. This is a problem for darwinism! We can be sure that slightly deleterious mutations outnumber slightly beneficial mutations 1000 to 1 at least. If slightly deleterious mutations are getting fixed at nearly the same rate as slightly beneficial, then we are evolving down hill, folks.Moose Dr
April 11, 2014
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