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When Is Murder “Good”?

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I present the following proposition for consideration:  “Every human being has infinite value and therefore one can never justify killing a human being on the ground that killing that human results in a net overall increase in pleasure even for the human in question.” 

What reasoning could possibly warrant believing this proposition to be true?

Let’s say we have two people debating the matter.  “John” accepts the first principles of the Judeo-Christian belief system.  “Sam” is a metaphysical materialist.

John:  This is easy.  One of the first principles of the Judeo-Christian belief system is that humans are created imago Dei, literally, in the “image of God.”  God is, by definition, the most valuable of all things, and it follows that anything that is created in his likeness shares in that value.  Therefore, each human has infinite value and unique dignity and cannot be traded for any other “good.”  Therefore, John says in answer to the question in the heading, “never.”

Sam:  Hmmm.  Well . . . You see . . . Hmmm.  I got nothin’.

Sam has nothing indeed.  Will Provine is correct.  If God does not exist and has not declared an ethical standard then there simply is no foundation for ethics.  Everyone is cast adrift in a sea of conflicting opinions about the grounding of any ethical norm, including the ethical norm, “Thou shalt not commit murder.”  In fact, one system of materialist ethics (consequentialism, especially the utilitarian version of it) holds that no absolute statement such as this is ever true.  If you ask a consequentialist whether it is OK to murder someone, all he can say is “Does it increase overall happiness to murder that person?”  If yes, go ahead and murder him.  So the materialist who subscribes to consequentialism answers the question in the heading “depending on the circumstances, sometimes.”

Comments
You are right I phrased it wrong. I should have said: I prefer the person who does not let their rigid adherence to a rule overcome their natural human empathy. I expect some of the Maoist bureacrats and secret police who murdered and imprisoned people on the principle that it was good for the revolution had empathy for their victims but put it aside because they felt they were serving a higher cause (likewise Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler - all the usual cliches - likewise the Protestants burning the Catholics at the stake and vice versa). It is very dangerous to get your ethics rigidly from what you feel is a higher cause. I know this is repeating a debate we have had a million times ... but it is important.markf
October 30, 2011
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If we are truly made in God's "image and likeness" (as I am certain that we are) then we cannot die, can we, since He cannot die. Since our bodies die, this must mean that who we actually are is something other than our bodies, something immortal. This points to the truth that who we are is pure spirit, temporarily inhabiting these bodies. The body can be killed, but Who We Really Are cannot. So Who We Really Are is, in His image and likeness, a non-corporeal essence that shares God-like qualities--Love, Joy, Creativity, Wisdom, Compassion, and Knowledge, to name a few. This also means, by the way, that the question of justifying murder cannot be settled by appealing to our being made in God's image and likeness, because that aspect of us in in no way the bodies that are destroyed by murder.Bruce David
October 30, 2011
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markf, There are people (many people, actually) who work in healthcare because they do have empathy for people, and they would never consider euthanasia on a person no matter what, as a matter of ethical and moral principle. Are you saying that their adherence to a principle means that they have no empathy, given that a person in pain and suffering chooses to die? I have a friend who recently committed suicide. Very sad. No one (including myself) had any indication from him that he was struggling and in pain. He was cheerful most of the time, and quite pleasant to engage with. There were no indicators as far as I could tell. Now suppose there were some indicators. Here's a man who wants to die and is giving indicators that he might kill himself. Are you saying that because he's in pain - very real pain I'm sure, that it would be against a sense of empathy for him to try and talk him out of the suicide? To try to help him find some other alternative to ease his suffering? I fail to see how those who work within a principle of respecting life could not be empathetic towards those who want to die simply because they won't be involved in or supportive of their taking their own life. So the principle allows there to be no ethical dilemma here. There are of course other areas where there are ethical dilemmas, so we are not always sure about what is the right thing to do. I agree with that, but that does not negate that there are circumstances where adherence to certain principles resolves the dilemma without sparing empathy.CannuckianYankee
October 30, 2011
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further notes:
The Center Of The Universe Is Life! - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. - Isabel Piczek - Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Front and Back 3-D images - articles and videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg
This following recent video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud:
Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205
Even with the advantage of all our advanced space-age technology at their fingertips, all scientists can guess is that it was some type of electro-magnetic radiation (light) which is not natural to this world. Kevin Moran, a scientist working on the mysterious '3D' nature of the Shroud image, states the 'supernatural' explanation this way:
"It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was "lifted cleanly" from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state." http://www.shroudstory.com/natural.htm
If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth.
In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560
It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was simply shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Bill Wiese - 23 Minutes In Hell - 2010 video http://vimeo.com/16155839
Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right:
THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!!
God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe, as astonishing as that is. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about.bornagain77
October 30, 2011
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The root of the value of man is embodied in our constitution:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
And indeed the United States fought a tremendously bloody Civil war defending this 'self-evident' truth. Whereas Atheism can ground no such value for humans. Indeed it is extremely difficult to figure out how the atheist's materialism can ground any proper value to humans in the first place, i.e. Just how do you derive value for a person from a philosophy that maintains transcendent values are illusory?:
How much is my body worth? Excerpt: The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body,,,,Together, all of the above (chemicals and minerals) amounts to less than one dollar! http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/worth.asp
Whereas Theism, particularly Christianity, has no trouble whatsoever figuring out how much humans are worth, since infinite almighty God has shown us how much we mean to him:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The unmitigated horror visited upon man, by state sponsored atheism (man becoming his own god), would be hard to exaggerate,,,
From Darwin To Hitler - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A Chairman MAO: Genocide Master “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/
Whereas despite what atheists may say, and as I've heard more than one pastor say, 'You would not want to live in a world without Christianity'. Moreover, the status of women and even infants greatly improved under Christianity
Early Christian Opposition to Infanticide Excerpt: "Infanticide was common in all well studied ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece, Rome, India, China, and Japan.",,, From its earliest creeds, Christians "absolutely prohibited" infanticide as "murder." Stark, op. cit., page 124. To Christians, the infant had value. Whereas pagans placed no value on infant life, Christians treated them as human beings. They viewed infanticide as the murder of a human being, not a convenient tool to rid society of excess females and perceived weaklings. The baby, whether male, female, perfect, or imperfect, was created in the image of God and therefore had value. http://christiancadre.org/member_contrib/cp_infanticide.html
From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few:
1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human life
But to reflect on why Christianity would so uniquely elevate the status of humans to infinite worth, it is simply because the infinite creator God Himself, chose to redeem man from his sinful fallen state by humbly becoming a man, living a sinless life, dying on a cross for our behalf, so as to pay the penalty for our sin, so that God, through His infinite love for man, could free man from death and hell. It is in this infinite selfless act, and this infinite selfless act alone, that 'infinite worth' and love is found for finite and sinful man. Verse and music:
Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread." You Are My King (Amazing Love) - Newsboys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJrcwzBlaXw
bornagain77
October 30, 2011
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But you've only pushed the problem up one level. Sure, wanton murder messes up a functioning society, but prohibiting murder assumes the powers that be want to promote a functioning society. Perhaps, like many leaders today, they merely look out for themselves. Once people only care about looking out for themselves, then their only rational course of action is to screw the other guy before they are screwed themselves. From that point your society quickly collapses. Perhaps altruistic people try to engineer society so only altruists make it to the top. However, narcissists seem to be much more effective at moving up the corporate ladder, as evidenced by modern corporations. What we need is some sort of internal check on immoral behavior, and the only effective one, as identified by a couple millennia of philosophers (Plato, Aristotle, Nietszche), is the belief in a just God.Eric Holloway
October 30, 2011
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How do you justify one theistically grounded ethic over another? That's goodusername's point. Seems we have exactly the same problem as the materialist does. Now, I will agree that atheistic regimes have enacted much worse genocide than any religious regime. However, religious regimes still do horrific things, even with theological grounding.Eric Holloway
October 30, 2011
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But you see, that's just the point, goodusername. A free-for-all does not produce a better ethic. It just produces an ethic that prevails in the end, Darwin-style. Here we fondly quote the words of General Sir Charles Napier on a related subject, in direct contrast: "This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs." But we would rather prevail by example and persuasion.News
October 30, 2011
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Some pertinent facts left unmentioned in this article: 1. We're all going to die, most of us in well under a hundred years. Our deaths will not cause infinite damage to human society, which will continue to grow, build, and thrive. 2. Allowing individuals to murder at will would wreck human society's ability to grow, build, and thrive; therefore all human societies have (and will continue to have in the future) very strictly enforced laws against murder. 3. Murder if you like, but you almost certainly won't get away with it — you'll be carted off to a gruesome prison; game over. Puzzling over whether murder is "justifiable," whether human individuals have "infinite value," and whether the answer to those questions can be found in a religion like Judaism or Christianity, is certainly an interesting intellectual diversion — but it has virtually nothing to do with really dealing with the problem of murder. Society already has an excellent handle on it, and as the science of genetics improves, that handle may soon be getting a whole lot better.DarelRex
October 30, 2011
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“Barry, what you’re saying is critical; I just want to add something. Some people think that if there is “no foundation for ethics,” there just won’t be ethics. They are mistaken. There can easily be uncorrected, evil ethics. We are going through a horrendous criminal trial here where, if the allegations against the defendants prove true, women had no more rights in their group than kitchen rats.” --Is this about the Shafia family? If so, they hardly feel that they have “no foundation for ethics”. They believe they have exactly the same foundation as you do – an objective morality based on the laws of the Creator. A lot of good it did. In fact, their treatment of women is based on their “firmly grounded” ethics. I’m glad that Christians typically in the modern Western world don’t follow the Bible (either OT or NT) in the treatment of women.goodusername
October 30, 2011
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God is, by definition, the most valuable of all things, and it follows that anything that is created in his likeness shares in that value. Therefore, each human has infinite value and unique dignity and cannot be traded for any other “good.”
Except when God commands genocide in the Old Testament, I guess.NickMatzke_UD
October 30, 2011
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Are you saying that a) religious people do not have ethical dilemmas? b) that it is always good to be sure about what is the right thing to do? Personally I prefer the person who is prepared to have a bit of human empathy and therefore may find cases such as euthanasia truly uncomfortable and difficult to resolve. It shows they care about the people involved rather than a set of rules.markf
October 30, 2011
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“I present the following proposition for consideration: “Every human being has infinite value and therefore one can never justify killing a human being on the ground that killing that human results in a net overall increase in pleasure even for the human in question.” What reasoning could possibly warrant believing this proposition to be true? John: This is easy.” --Is it “easy”? Here’s a scenario that, unfortunately, is quite possible. I’m in a hospital with, say, terminal cancer, in unimaginable pain. The max dose of pain killers are being given and are no longer working. I’m at the point where I’ve had enough and am ready to die, and even my loved ones are ready. The docs estimate that death won’t occur until several weeks. Should extra doses of painkillers that will ease the pain and speed death be considered, or other forms of euthanasia? I hope that if I’m ever in such a situation that the hospital is not following the ethics as given above. This is why I believe empathy and reason should be a foundation, not a list of laws. I would be concerned to be old and sick and to be in a hospital that said “never” to any form of euthanasia. “One of the first principles of the Judeo-Christian belief system is that humans are created imago Dei, literally, in the “image of God.” God is, by definition, the most valuable of all things, and it follows that anything that is created in his likeness shares in that value. Therefore, each human has infinite value and unique dignity and cannot be traded for any other “good.”” --“most valuable” in what sense? And why should we care about what’s “valuable”? How does it “follow” that anything created in his “likeness” (whatever that means) shares in that “value” (whatever that means)? Why can’t that “value” be “traded for any other “good” (whatever that means)? A lot of words, but nothing is actually said. “Everyone is cast adrift in a sea of conflicting opinions about the grounding of any ethical norm, including the ethical norm, “Thou shalt not commit murder.”” --I’ve seen on a few threads references to a case in Canada of a father who killed his children. With “thou shalt not commit murder” I guess this would be an “easy” action to call immoral. Although in the same book of the Bible where those words can be found (Deuteronomy) it also says you can kill children that are disobedient and rebellious, which is exactly why the father said he killed his children.goodusername
October 30, 2011
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Apparently I'm giving up on my intention never to quote much scripture. But here goes anyway. Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die." The simple point is that all living things belong to God. He made them. They are his, and he reminds us of this when stating that he may choose to take back their life. My possessions belong to me. I am in a unique position to do with them as I wish as I see fit. No one else may throw away so much a rusty paper clip without my permission, and I may remove or destroy what is mine for my own reasons. Thankfully, we have ample evidence that God exercises this authority with love and justice. He does not view us as we might paper clips or old neckties. But if we analyze individual cases to determine whether execution was right or wrong, we miss the point. They were his. What life they had was given by him. Their lives were his to take. It is not our place to evaluate those decisions. If we disagree, we may carve ourselves an idol and attribute precisely our wisdom to it. Christians submit to God on the basis of his authority, not because they have judged him and found him acceptable, even though he invites us to see for ourselves that he is good. These statements found in the Bible are simple and they are true. They are superior to any theology or philosophy, if there is even a difference.ScottAndrews2
October 30, 2011
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Barry, what you're saying is critical; I just want to add something. Some people think that if there is "no foundation for ethics," there just won't be ethics. They are mistaken. There can easily be uncorrected, evil ethics. We are going through a horrendous criminal trial here where, if the allegations against the defendants prove true, women had no more rights in their group than kitchen rats. The thing to see is that under atheist rules, their culture is as good as the traditional one that is trying them. My point? Don't assume that "no foundation for ethics" just means "Nobody gets married any more here, Mister." It's way more than that. It strikes at the moral integrity of any justice system to assert, "Well, maybe she's no use to you, bud, but you can't kill her. Not here. Not legally." He can say, "It's my culture and mine is as good as yours. " In my country, we just got through a horrific battle to gain the right to even tell the truth about these situations, which we wrung from our "moral and intellectual superiors" who believe what you describe.News
October 30, 2011
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So you are really saying that murdering Hitler would have been an unethical thing to do? If so I have to disagree. If not I think you need to explain why.myname
October 30, 2011
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