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Where is the difference here?

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Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

[youtube 259r-iDckjQ]

Comments
292: I could do it
Go ahead and derive it while we watch.cantor
July 7, 2013
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I could do it, but I don't have the formula memorized, so I'd have to derive it. What's the relevance?keiths
July 7, 2013
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Consider the following:
If I were to randomly select a group of 75 different people from a roomful of 200 men and 100 women, what is the probability that the selected group would contain exactly 25 women?
Question: How many people contributing to this thread know how to do this computation using only the knowledge currently in your head? No Googling, no phone-a-friend, no ask-the-audience, no leafing through textbooks, etc.cantor
July 7, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
You have confused “order” as in low entropy with “order” as in “not chaos”.
El oh El There's one for the ages.Mung
July 7, 2013
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scordova: If you have not done so, I encourage you to at least read my comment 169. Whatever your position with regards to the Second Law, I think you will see that, in the Cornell paper, Sewell is merely addressing these papers on their own terms, and is right to point out the error of how Styer and Bunn compute a conversion between the "improbability of organisms" and thermal entropy. Perhaps you may feel that Styer and Bunn are making other errors too, not addressed by Sewell, but in any event I suspect you will agree that their methodology is not sound and should be challenged.CS3
July 7, 2013
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Onlookers, at this point KS is indulging the willfully continued misrepresentation, as his red herrings and strawmen tactics were corrected and the issue of explaining constructive work issuing in FSCO/I was put firmly on the table. Cf here at 227 above. If you look carefully, you will find that he simply does not face the issue that diffusion is not a reasonable explanation of such constructive work leading to functionally specific complex organisation, nor are similar forces associated with a trend of increased disorder. However, this behaviour is no surprise, it is habitual and a reflection of an ideological agenda; he rhetorically distorts, misrepresents and dismisses with cheap quips instead of soberly addressing issues on their genuine merits -- the attempt to use freezing water to answer to explanation of organisation not order is a classic strawman. And when I identified and corrected it as a strawman, for example, he has gone on to dance all around and deny that he was properly corrected. It is the same that has led him and his ilk to dispute the clear evidence and analysis that points to the credible cause of finding a box of 500 coins, all H. And so on, for issue after issue. He then compounds all of this by seeking to make ad hominem talking points repeated drumbeat style against anyone who corrects him. This is likely to take in someone just glancing or who is not closely following up a matter that requires step by step attention. On the strength of such manipulative tactics he then hopes to get away with claiming a rhetorical victory for his agenda, but all along he has not soundly dealt with the matter on the merits. Here, again, the need to properly explain constructive work issuing not in mere order but complex organisation, where something like diffusion tends strongly to be a disorganising force. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
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CS3, Okay, but I urge you to keep thinking about it. Particularly this part:
Do you see that the second law is as irrelevant to your doubts about evolution as the the first law would be to your doubts about gerbil-poofing?
gerbil-poofingkeiths
July 7, 2013
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1. Does evolution violate the second law? The answer to #1 is ‘no’, and compensation shows this.
If one considers the Second Law only applicable to thermal entropy, then I agree (with my earlier caveat about what is meant by "compensation" in this case). If one considers the Second Law applicable to the improbability of organisms, as in Styer, etc., then compensation does not prove nor disprove anything, assuming organisms are not being imported through the boundary, because there is no valid conversion between organism complexity and thermal entropy.
Did you read my comment?
It would, I think, take a lot of writing for me to adequately address the nuances of where I agree with you and where I would disagree with regard to all the implications of that comment. I think we have beaten this horse to death, so I am good with leaving off here, and letting others who read our comments, if any, draw their own conclusions based on our discussion as it currently stands.CS3
July 7, 2013
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More huffing and puffing from KF. Meanwhile, my simple 4-step argument goes unrebutted by KF or anyone else, to the amusement (or dismay) of the onlookers.keiths
July 7, 2013
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Onlookers Predictably, KS ignores that in the context where GS spoke in terms of X-entropy, he specifically highlighted that he was discussing situations dominated by probabilistic patterns leading to diffusion [and the like], as was cited TWICE above. Next, his discussion of a case of coupling energy through energy conversion devices (heat pumps, solar panels) predictably side-steps the points that the mechanisms performing the coupling, energy conversion and work have to be accounted for, and that where such mechanisms exhibit FSCO/I they are not plausibly the product of diffusion and the like. Constructive work leading to FSCO/I has to be explained and raw injection of energy and/or mass is not a reasonable explanation. Back to KS's red herrings and strawmen games to distract us from that pivotal point. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
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I will add a 3rd possibility...
I will add a 4th possibility, which is anathema to MN's: d) there is an agent, undetectable to our science, acting at the micro level to cause otherwise improbable things to happen, without detectably violating any laws of physics, including the 2nd law.cantor
July 7, 2013
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Sal,
The irony is that even though the Darwinists know I agreed with them, they couldn’t bring themselves to say. “Good job, Sal”.
I'm not sure why you expect congratulations. Do you see me congratulating Lizzie for understanding the second law, or vice-versa? If it makes you feel better, I will state that if you believe that evolution does not violate the second law, and it appears that you do, then I agree with you on that point. You may even quote me on that, but don't be an ass by quote-mining me as you so often do.keiths
July 7, 2013
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Hi Thomas2,
For your apparatus to work, the solar cell will have to power a heat pump, and the operational efficiency/inefficiency of the heat pump will provide the necessary compensation.
Yes, in the sense that the operation of the heat pump increases its own entropy and the entropy of the surroundings more than it decreases the entropy of the oxygen/carbon dioxide mixture.
For undirected (blind, mindless) evolution to work without violating the 2nd Law, natural selective processes (successful competition between organisms with differential functionality-selectivity-fecundity, simplifying and ignoring luck) will presumably provide the equivalent role of the heat pump.
Well, any physical process that causes a local decrease in entropy must simultaneously increase the entropy of the surroundings by an equal or greater amount, so in that sense any such process plays the role of the heat pump in my example.
Entropy (or X-entropy) will, however, be quantified by an appropriate measure of complexity, not functionality-selectivity-fecundity (since what we are concerned with here is the unplanned/unintelligent/mindless development of “organised”, or “specified”, complexity).
Well, apart from the fact that the concept of X-entropy doesn't make sense, it is not inversely correlated with complexity. A chamber containing oxygen and carbon dioxide, with all of the oxygen on one side and all of the carbon dioxide on the other, will have low "oxygen-entropy" and low "carbon-dioxide-entropy". But that doesn't make it complex.
Thus, in order to demonstrate that undirected evolution works without violating the 2nd Law and that natural selective processes can indeed supply the role of a heat pump, it needs to be demonstrated empirically that there exists (on average) a significant positive correlation between appropriately quantified increases in functionality-selectivity-fecundity and appropriately quantified increases in complexity.
To show that undirected evolution doesn't violate the second law, you need only show that the processes involved don't violate the second law. That's one of the reasons I find these arguments so absurd. Creationists and IDers generally don't seem to think that life itself violates the second law; they just think that evolution does. But evolution doesn't require anything more than heritable variation with differential reproductive success. You get all of those with life itself! Why would those things magically start violating the second law merely because you've slapped the "evolution" label on them?keiths
July 7, 2013
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SC: The fundamental issue is whether, per relevant stat analysis it is reasonable that diffusion and the like be seen as credibly able to carry out constructive work ending up in FSCO/I. For good reason, the answer is, no. That is, we need to look at the underlying circumstance of the relevant law (Hence my marbles and pistons conceptual model, designed to help non-specialists get an idea of what is going on without drowning in the math.) When we do so, we see that the same reason why we have no reasonable expectation to see 500H or a similar special result from coin tossing, applies. Constructive work yielding something marked by FSCO/I, has just one empirically and analytically grounded known adequate cause -- design. (Where, work is orderly, forced motion, F*dx and all that.) And given the close link to information involved, that is no surprise. But of course the same statistical analysis is not going to lock out logical possibilities absolutely, it works by a subtler point, the failure of lucky noise to appear or of blind search as a viable mechanism. Golf balls, as a practical matter, do not play themselves across 18 holes by logically possible but maximally implausible clusters of forces and circumstances. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
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F/N: I should not omit to note how, AF -- closely associated with a slander that has been standing for months -- is offended by my saying (and showing) that something is a mish-mash of red herrings and strawman arguments. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
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Cantor, a reasonable point. The issue is, not so much that unless there is X, but rather that Y the suggested alternative to X -- where X is shown to be of adequate order -- has neither empirical nor analytical warrant to be able to achieve the outcome. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
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Thomas2 and other newly arrived pro-ID and creationists at UD (not the old timers), I'm a creationist, but I do not think evolution violates the 2nd law as stated in most textbooks. Below are the links of my arguments at UD. Out of respect for my colleague Dr. Sewell, I'm minimizing getting too involved in a shouting match since all the shouting was done last year. In brief I showed how a tornado will REDUCE the entropy of a 747! Here are the links: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-an-agument-creationists-and-id-proponents-should-not-use/ https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/a-designed-objects-entropy-must-increase-for-its-design-complexity-to-increase-part-1/ and finally https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/a-designed-objects-entropy-must-increase-for-its-design-complexity-to-increase-part-2/ The irony is that even though the Darwinists know I agreed with them, they couldn't bring themselves to say. "Good job, Sal". I can hardly post textbook equations without Darwinsits saying something derogatory.... I was an engineering grad student in statistical mechanics and thermodynamics last year, and thus this topic interested me, and I wrote on it from the perspective of student of statistical mechanics and thermodynamics. That was 11 months ago. Everything that each side wanted to say has been pretty much said. I fully support Dr. Sewell's right to a fair hearing of his ideas, and though I vehemently disagreed with Dr. Sewell, I wouldn't think to pull the sort of underhanded maneuvers that Nick Matzke pulled to impeded publication of Dr. Sewell's claims. That was crossing boundaries and meddling in affairs Matzke had no business in. I have remained mostly silent on these matters except now because I see there are new commenters that haven't heard the news that some creationists actually agree with evolutionists on the 2nd law and its relation to ID. This is an extremely challenging topic. Just follow the links of my treatment of Mike Elzinga's concept test and the Purcell Pound experiment in the last link to get an idea of how circumspect we should all be on these difficult technical matters.scordova
July 7, 2013
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EBL @ 272 wrote: you seem to think that tornadoes are perfectly possible under the 2nd Law, but life is not.
What did I say that caused you to infer this?? Did you pigeonhole me simply because I objected to KS' immature and disrespectful treatment of Dr Sewell?cantor
July 7, 2013
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request from the peanut gallery: How about trying to address my actual position
On further reflection, I think I will do that. Your actual position is Option 2 (but for some inscrutable reason you seem reluctant to come out of the closet and own it). And what both KF (a) and GS (b) seem to be saying is that unless there is a) some pre-existing mechanism on the early barren lifeless planet which is capable of using incoming raw heat energy to do constructive work, OR b) something other than raw heat energy coming in, ... then the transformation of the barren lifeless planet will not take place. I will add a 3rd possibility: c) some prexisting information encoded in the planet that could somehow facilitate the spontaneous creation of a mechanism as described in (a) abovecantor
July 7, 2013
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You accused me earlier of being evasive, despite the fact that I had make my position very clear (it not being one of the ones you had offered).
To be clear, it took quite a few posts to get there. In fact, it took so many posts that your sidekick KS even accused me of being "oddly insistent".
If a tornado can have less, more, or the stame entropy as still air, can you explain the conditions under which it would have: 1. less 2. more 3. the same.
It depends on the mass, the temperature, the temperature gradient, the pressure, the pressure gradient, the gravitational potential, etc etc etc of the still air and the tornado you are comparing. In general I would think that a tornado has less entropy than the still air that existed minutes earlier at the same location. Is that what you were asking? If so, I have no problem with that.cantor
July 7, 2013
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Lizzie to Thomas2:
You misunderstand me: I think arguments from incredulity are perfectly valid. I do not know that there are no invisible pink unicorns, but that is an argument from incredulity. I see no reason to think there are, and it runs counter to my entire understanding of the way the world works.
Lizzie, I think Thomas2 may be thinking of the logical fallacy known as the "argument from incredulity". Your argument about invisible pink unicorns isn't an argument from incredulity, because you're not saying "I don't see how invisible pink unicorns could exist; therefore they don't exist." Rather, you're saying "I see no evidence at all that invisible pink unicorns exist, so I have no reason to believe that they do."keiths
July 7, 2013
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Well, cantor, it's certainly not clear to me why you will not give me a straightforward response. It would be hugely clarifying if you did, because it might tell me why you seem to think that tornadoes are perfectly possible under the 2nd Law, but life is not. I'm not sure whether you think they have greater entropy than still air, and are therefore highly probable under the 2nd Law; or have less, in which case they would seem to require as much explanation as the spontaneous appearance of life does, given the 2nd Law; or the same, in which case I'd like to know what you mean by "entropy".Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
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Thomas2: You misunderstand me: I think arguments from incredulity are perfectly valid. I do not know that there are no invisible pink unicorns, but that is an argument from incredulity. I see no reason to think there are, and it runs counter to my entire understanding of the way the world works. My point is merely that Granville's argument is, simply such an argument - the 2nd Law part is irrelevant to it, and indeed, wrong. Nothing about the postulated evolutionary mechanisms to explain life involve any violation of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. And thanks for your kindly words :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
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cantor seems to be afraid of the question. I think I know why.
The one-man peanut gallery is back. You have no clue whatsoever.cantor
July 7, 2013
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KS (at 153) - [originally posted at 2.19pm July 5th]: I am a novice here, but I have an interest in whether or not mindless evolution does in fact violate the 2nd Law or not, so I’d be grateful for your view on whether the following is on the right track: For your apparatus to work, the solar cell will have to power a heat pump, and the operational efficiency/inefficiency of the heat pump will provide the necessary compensation. For undirected (blind, mindless) evolution to work without violating the 2nd Law, natural selective processes (successful competition between organisms with differential functionality-selectivity-fecundity, simplifying and ignoring luck) will presumably provide the equivalent role of the heat pump. Entropy (or X-entropy) will, however, be quantified by an appropriate measure of complexity, not functionality-selectivity-fecundity (since what we are concerned with here is the unplanned/unintelligent/mindless development of “organised”, or “specified”, complexity). Thus, in order to demonstrate that undirected evolution works without violating the 2nd Law and that natural selective processes can indeed supply the role of a heat pump, it needs to be demonstrated empirically that there exists (on average) a significant positive correlation between appropriately quantified increases in functionality-selectivity-fecundity and appropriately quantified increases in complexity. Is there any empirical evidence which would reliably suggest this?Thomas2
July 7, 2013
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EL (at 158) - [originally posted at 2.39pm July 5th]: It seems surprising that an argument against unintelligent or blind evolution should be countered as “an argument from incredulity”. This phraseology seems to suggest that skeptics should uncritically acquiesce to arguments from credulity, and that Darwinian evolutionary science relies on arguments from gullibility! Science requires adequate positive evidence for its claims, and is required to be accessible to proper scrutiny: “he who asserts must prove”. A healthy skepticism should be welcomed, not disparaged, surely? (I don’t mean this unkindly – I appreciate your posts).Thomas2
July 7, 2013
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If a tornado can have less, more, or the stame entropy as still air, can you explain the conditions under which it would have: 1. less 2. more 3. the same. You accused me earlier of being evasive, despite the fact that I had make my position very clear (it not being one of the ones you had offered). Please do not evade this question of mine. And if you have addressed it in an earlier post, please give me the post number, because I cannot find a post by you in which you have addressed this question.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
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cantor seems to be afraid of the question. I think I know why.keiths
July 7, 2013
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EBL @ 264: I asked: Does a tornado have less, or more, or the same, entropy, of any sort, than still air? You answered “yes”, which makes no sense to me.
Yes, a tornado has less, or more, or the same, entropy, of any sort, as still air.
If entropy is a meaningful concept, then it must be possible to evaluate the relative entropies of still air versus a tornado, no?
Yes.
And if the answer depends on the kind of entropy, I invited you to specify which.
I responded to this in an earlier post.cantor
July 7, 2013
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Cantor, if you don't think the concept meaningless, that's great, and I certainly apologise for suggesting that you did. But in that case, perhaps you would answere my question. So let me try again: I asked:
1. Does a tornado have less, or more, or the same, entropy, of any sort, than still air?
You answered "yes", which makes no sense to me. If entropy is a meaningful concept, then it must be possible to evaluate the relative entropies of still air versus a tornado, no? And if the answer depends on the kind of entropy, I invited you to specify which.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
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