Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Where is the difference here?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

[youtube 259r-iDckjQ]

Comments
EBL @ 258: cantor thinks that entropy is a meaningless concept
Libelous. I never said any such thing. Apology expected.cantor
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
03:28 PM
3
03
28
PM
PDT
CS3, Did you read my comment? Do you see that the second law is as irrelevant to your doubts about evolution as the the first law would be to your doubts about gerbil-poofing? (I'll bet that's the first time that sentence has ever been written in the history of the English language.) Imagine this hypothetical dialogue: keiths: If compensation happens, then the second law is not violated. Granville: That can't be true! Improbable things are still improbable! keiths: Of course they are. But if compensation happens, then the second law isn't violated. No one is claiming that compensation is an explanation for anything other than why the second law is not violated. Compensation does not explain evolution; it merely explains why evolution does not violate the second law. There are two separate questions: 1. Does evolution violate the second law? 2. Is evolution improbable? The answer to #1 is 'no', and compensation shows this. The answer to #2 is 'yes' according to you and Granville, and neither compensation nor the second law has anything to do with that. You are both merely arguing that evolution is improbable. Just like IDers and creationists everywhere.keiths
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
EBL @ 246: Cantor, I have answered your own question very clearly.
It took a while to get there, but you eventually sorta answered it. Thank you.
I’m not quite sure of the point you are trying to make by not answering mine.
Unlike you and KS, I accurately answered the question you asked, the first time, instead of writing an essay on an unrelated topic.
EBL @ 247: And let me remind you of the part of my post following the question I posted, which you snipped...
No reminding is necessary. The sentence started with the word "if". If the consequent is not true, then neither is the antecedent. Please feel free to ask follow-up questions.cantor
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
03:18 PM
3
03
18
PM
PDT
Well, Cantor, I remember the young officer in charge of us on the firing range, seeming to be terrified that I would accidentally shoot a colleague inadvertently. I suppose he thought I seemed a bit absent-minded. Paraphrasing one word isn't that easy, you know.Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
03:02 PM
3
03
02
PM
PDT
Well, Cantor, I remember the young officer in charge of us on the firing range, seeming to be terrified that I would accidentally shoot a colleague inadvertently. He must have thought I was a bit absent-minded.Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:58 PM
2
02
58
PM
PDT
I almost choked laughing. You made my day.
OK, so cantor thinks that entropy is a meaningless concept that you can't measure anyway. So obviously he is not going to be persuaded by Granville's argument, and I guess that goes for Axel as well. Anyone like to speak up for the validity of entropy as a measure of whether a postulated process would violate the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:57 PM
2
02
57
PM
PDT
Go to the top of the class, Lidds.Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
So, guys,
Which has greater entropy, a tornado or still air?
Surely someone must have a view on this!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
They dinnae. God does it.Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
Axel @ 251 "How long is a piece of string"?
I almost choked laughing. You made my day.cantor
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PDT
niwrad and Axel:
Evolutionists disagree because they believe that biological systems spontaneously organize themselves. That is, exactly the inverse of what the 2nd law states.
If that was the inverse of what the 2nd law states, how come tornadoes spontaneously organise themselves?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
Alan Fox:
I think you can leave it to a fair reader to decide who has presented a rational argument and who hasn’t.
Rational argument? We can leave it to the fair reader to notice that your guys have failed to produce any EVIDENCE tat demonstrates Granville is wrong.Joe
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:50 PM
2
02
50
PM
PDT
Cantor did reply to your question, EBL. It was a single word, 'Yes' - which I shall paraphrase for you, as follows: 'How long is a piece of string?Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:50 PM
2
02
50
PM
PDT
CS3:
If I think energy is simply making something, for example, a plant forming a flower, not improbable (and I would agree in this case), I say, as you do, that energy is making that something not improbable. Perhaps I provide some details of a mechanism by which that might be the case. If I want to know how much energy is required, I analyze the mechanism, or perhaps perform an experiment if possible. I do not count the number of microstates of flower and plug it into the Boltzman formula to see how much energy I need, not even as an upper or lower bound. I only do that if I am trying to compensate improbable events with events that, if reversed would, be more improbable, according to some global accounting scheme. Hopefully you can forgive Sewell for writing a paper that responds to the arguments in the literature rather than to the personal views of UD posters.
It would make sense for Sewell to address the offered rebuttals to the claims he himself has made, which include the claim that if evolution is the explanation for the development of life on earth, then natural selection must the capacity to violate the second law. Both Styer and Amory attempted to show, by casting the problem in terms of entropy, that this is not the case. If you want specific hypothesised mechanisms, then there are plenty in the biochemical, genetics and population genetics literature. You may not find them persuasive, but that does not mean that the 2nd Law would have had to have been violated for them to occur. None of the postulated processes (unlike the Design hypothesis) involves anything other than normal physics and chemistry. And if all Sewell means is that, like Dembski, he finds the evolutionary hypothesis implausible, then his argument has no more to do with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics than does a teacher's skepticism when a child claims that her dog ate her homework. We don't need Boltzmann's equations to calculate the level of her incredulity. Sewell finishes his New Perspective piece with this paragraph:
But one would think that at least this would be considered an open question, and those who argue that it really isextremely improbable, and thus contrary to the basic principle underlying the second law of thermodynamics, would be given a measure of respect, and taken seriously by their colleagues, but we aren’t.
This simple reason why those who have read Granville's work do not take it seriously is that he has simply gussied up an argument from incredulity with some fancy equations that have absolutely nothing to do with biology or genetics or natural selection, and essentially said: I think evolution is improbable, and because the 2nd Law says that improbable things are more improbable than probable things, evolution is improbable.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PDT
Seigolopa. 'gnorts leurg' dluohs spahrep be, 'niht leurg'.Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
'Evolutionists disagree because they believe that biological systems spontaneously organize themselves. That is, exactly the inverse of what the 2nd law states.' Nirwad, evah a traeh. S'taht ytterp gnorts leurg rof ruo sdneirf, ey nek.Axel
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:39 PM
2
02
39
PM
PDT
And let me remind you of the part of my post following the question I posted, which you snipped:
If your answer depends on the kind of entropy, please say which entropies are greater, the same, or less, in a tornado than in still air.
Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:24 PM
2
02
24
PM
PDT
Cantor, I have answered your own question very clearly. I'm not quite sure of the point you are trying to make by not answering mine.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
Neither Styer nor Bunn seem to me to be saying that the system experiencing the “compensatory” increase in entropy” is an “unrelated event”. Clearly, if work is done by one system on another the two system are related.
Again, you are imposing your view on them. As I said earlier:
To be clear, though, that is definitely not the position Asimov, Styer, Bunn, and Lloyd were making. If they did not think anything improbable was happening, then there would be no need for them to convert the probabilities of improbable events into entropies and compare that to a different type of entropy to satisfy an inequality. And, even if the energy were causing these events, it makes no sense for them to try to convert from the original improbability of what happened to how much energy is needed. It takes energy to flip coins, but it takes no more energy to flip all heads than to flip half heads and half tails.
If I think energy is simply making something, for example, a plant forming a flower, not improbable (and I would agree in this case), I say, as you do, that energy is making that something not improbable. Perhaps I provide some details of a mechanism by which that might be the case. If I want to know how much energy is required, I analyze the mechanism, or perhaps perform an experiment if possible. I do not count the number of microstates of flower and plug it into the Boltzman formula to see how much energy I need, not even as an upper or lower bound. I only do that if I am trying to compensate improbable events with events that, if reversed would, be more improbable, according to some global accounting scheme. Hopefully you can forgive Sewell for writing a paper that responds to the arguments in the literature rather than to the personal views of UD posters.CS3
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:16 PM
2
02
16
PM
PDT
Liddle@219 wrote: Let me ask you one question: 1. Does a tornado have less, or more, or the same, entropy, of any sort, than still air?
Yes.cantor
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PDT
Kairosfocus: Can you answer my question: Which has greater entropy, a tornado or still air? Nobody seems to want to answer this, yet it is neither a red herring nor a straw man.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:46 PM
1
01
46
PM
PDT
KK I really have nothing to say about Granville Sewell's paper on thermodynamics. I think Joe Felsenstein, Keith and Lizzie have dealt with it effectively. Regarding entropy and the second law, I have been reading up, and admit I am struggling with the concepts. It seems to get a proper understanding, one needs to work through the history and I am only up to the sixties and haven't yet got to grips with Feynman. You, and your steel balls, seem stuck in an earlier classical period.Alan Fox
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:46 PM
1
01
46
PM
PDT
AF: All you just did was try to excuse yourself from actually thinking about what is going on on the thermodynamics. And, for cause I stand by my note that KS played and continues to play red herring and strawman tactics, as I took time to show. When you can show us empirically observed cases of forces of diffusion or the like [or for that matter tornadoes hitting junkyards or hardware stores] spontaneously performing constructive work issuing in functionally specific complex organisation you will have something worthwhile to say. Meanwhile, no substance, all rhetoric. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:37 PM
1
01
37
PM
PDT
Talk of the "laws" of the universe always makes me smile. As if the fundamental particles, fields and waves carry a rule-book and refer to it as necessary. In reality, we, as observers, are attempting to make mathematical models of what we observe and then test them against observations.Alan Fox
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
F/N: The second law operates at two levels, classical where it is in effect just another thermodynamic variable. At statistical level it is found to be tied closely to statistical weights of clusters of microstates and linked processes, such as diffusion. It is the second level that brings out the information issues tied to constructive work and highlights the folly of suggesting that diffusion and similar processes can reasonably be expected to perform constructive work ending in FSCO/I, whether in isolated, closed or open systems (to use the terminology I prefer). GS is right that when a system is opened up to mass and energy flows, constructive work does not suddenly need no specific explanation. If something is overwhelmingly unlikely in an isolated system as a spontaneous process, it will remain extremely unlikely when the system is opened up unless something specific is going on that drastically enhances its likelihood, e.g. a plan and process for construction. And, I suspect the "can ANYTHING happen in an open system" was not meant literally. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
@ KF I think you can leave it to a fair reader to decide who has presented a rational argument and who hasn't. That anyone could write
..a farrago of red herrings led away to strawmen which are then set alight...
and then wonder why his comments are the object of ridicule among the few who bother to read them... well, you know what I'm thinking. PS @ KF I can't find the comment where you talk about spending time alone on a street corner protesting. It wasn't about the Redemption Song statue was it? How did that go?Alan Fox
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PDT
KS: You erected and burned an ad hominem laced strawman. I took apart the strawman tactic step by step. Your response is to try another strawman directed at me. Your grade just sank to F - - - - . KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PDT
...a tornado for that matter, is perfectly explicable under the 2nd Lawn
And I thought it was moles!Alan Fox
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
11:44 AM
11
11
44
AM
PDT
CS3:
When Sewell uses the term “compensate”, I believe he is referring only to cases in which the increase is an unrelated event that merely “offsets” an improbable event of another type, according to some global accounting scheme, as it is used in the Styer and Bunn papers. That definition is consistent with what you referred to as his “misinterpretation” of the compensation argument:
Neither Styer nor Bunn seem to me to be saying that the system experiencing the "compensatory" increase in entropy" is an "unrelated event". Clearly, if work is done by one system on another the two system are related. If a vortex generated on earth by a shaft of sunlight warming a patch of ground, and causing a convection current thus reduces the entropy of the air above the patch of warm ground, there is no violation of the 2nd Law, because as a result of the convection current, the patch of ground cools, or would cool if it were not re-warmed by the sun. And the reason the sun can warm that patch of ground is that the 2nd Law does not forbid it, because the sun is hotter than the earth. If the sun did not heat the earth then it would be more difficult for local entropy decreases to occur on earth, but not impossible, because the earth's surface is also warmed by the interior of the earth, so it's possible the sun is not necessary, but the fact remains that the heating of the sun by the earth, especially the fact that the earth is also turning, so it is sequentially warmed and cooled, leading to both spatial and temporal temperature gradients gives vast numbers of opportunities for local decreases of entropy to occur on earth (in other words for small systems to rise in entropy as their surroundings decrease). A prime example, which no-one seems to want to consider, is tornadoes which are massive local systems of reduced entropy, and which would, if Granville were correct, but violations of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. But more to the point is this continued use of the word "probability" without reference to the generative process posutated to have given rise to the observed arrangement. Clearly shining the sun on a series of coin-tosses cannot make "all heads" more probable than it would be in the absence of the sun. The answer is simple: the sun makes no difference at all to the coin-tossing system - it does no work on it that can possibly affect the outcome. But shine the sun on the patch of ground below a layer of still air, which would have its molecules distributed in a uniform arrangement with respect to their next direction of travel, and you will quickly get an equivalent result to "all heads" - all the molecules travelling in the same direction. Sure, a tornado cannot rearrange rubble to form a town, any more than sunshine can rearrange coins to form All Heads. But that's not because the 2nd Law forbids it; it's just not what is probable following a tornado. However, many things that would be highly improbable in the absence of a tornado becom highly probable in the presence of a tornado, such as sofas landing in trees, and previously scattered bits and pieces being deposited in a single pile. It's not that increasing entropy in some distant part of the universe magically makes invisible pink unicorns more probable on earth. Obviously it doesn't, and no-one, certainly not Styer or Bunn, make any case remotely resembling that. But entropy in a system can dramatically increase in a variety of different ways in response to work being done on that system by a surrounding system, which, in turn, must increase in entropy as a result of the work done. As others have said: this is not proof of evolution; but it is certainly a compelling rebuttal of Granville's case the living things (which are low entropy systems) cannot have arisen spontaneously on earth, because that would involve a violation of the 2nd Law, not helped by the input of our sun. In fact the sun hugely increases the probability of local entropy decreases because it is a major cause of temperature gradients, and and thus, for example, of convection currents in fluids. One good reason not to expect life to evolve on planets with no water or atmosphere.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
10:57 AM
10
10
57
AM
PDT
kairosfocus, There is not one place in that avalanche of words where you say something like "Step 3 is wrong, and this is why." You can't refute my simple 4-step argument, and the onlookers know it.keiths
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6 7 13

Leave a Reply