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Whoops! Why humans aren’t apes: Professor Coyne’s own goal

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Over at Why Evolution Is True, Professor Jerry Coyne has written a post mocking an anthropologist for claiming that human beings aren’t apes. Not only is Coyne’s reasoning muddle-headed, but his biology is embarrassingly wrong. Heck, even I could spot his mistakes – and I’m not a scientist.

The anthropologist who has had the temerity to declare that humans are not apes is Professor Jonathan Marks, who teaches biological anthropology at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. In an article on his PopAnth blog titled, Are we apes? No, we are humans, Marks insists that we are related to apes: “indeed,” he writes, “we are closer to a chimpanzee than that chimpanzee is to an orangutan” and “we know that our DNA is over 98% identical to that of a chimpanzee” – but he goes on to argue that “ancestry is not the same as identity.” Marks acknowledges that we fall phylogenetically within the group that we call “apes,” but he points out that we also fall phylogenetically within the group that we call “fish” – and yet nobody would think of calling us fish. “To call us ‘apes’ or ‘fish’ because our ancestry resides among those organisms is a trivial statement about how those categories are artificially constructed, not a profound revelation about our natural identity,” writes Marks.

(All emphases below are mine – VJT.)

Coyne’s embarrassing error

And it is here, in his critical review of Marks’ article, that Professor Coyne comes a cropper. In response to Marks’ argument that since a coelacanth is more closely related to us than it is to a trout, we therefore “fall within the category that encompasses both coelacanths and trout, namely, fish,” Coyne fires back:

Yes, but that’s not the same thing as saying that we fall phylogenetically with the group that we call fish. In fact we don’t (see below)…

Well, “bony fish” are in the superclass Osteichthyes, to which we don’t belong, but we do belong to the class Sarcoptrygii (sic), which are descendants of early fish, a group that include tetrapods.

The problem here is that Coyne’s own sources contradict him – and at least one senior evolutionary biologist does, as well. The Wikipedia article on Sarcopterygii, which he cites, states, “The Sarcopterygii … or lobe-finned fish … constitute a clade (traditionally a class or subclass) of the bony fish” (i.e. Osteichthyes), adding that “a strict cladistic view includes the terrestrial vertebrates” within the Sarcopterygii. The Wikipedia article on Osteichthyes confirms this by declaring that “the common ancestor of all Osteichthyes includes tetrapods amongst its descendants.” While the Osteichthyes were once considered a class, they are now regarded as a superclass, consisting of two classes: Actinopterygii, or ray-finned fishes, and Sarcopterygii, or lobe-finned fish – a group which on a strict cladistic view “includes the terrestrial vertebrates.”

So to sum up: contra Coyne, human beings do belong to the superclass Osteichthyes (bony fish) as well as the class of Sarcopterygii (lobe-finned fish). Hence Marks is quite correct in saying that we fall phylogenetically with the group that we call fish – or more precisely, bony fish. Bony fish, in turn, belong to the subphylum known as vertebrates (or Vertebrata): “Vertebrates include the jawless fish and the jawed vertebrates, which includes the cartilaginous fish (sharks and rays) and the bony fish. A bony fish clade known as the lobe-finned fishes is included with tetrapods, which are further divided into amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and birds.”

It gets worse for poor Professor Coyne. Evolutionary biologist P.Z. Myers openly declares in Ray Comfort’s movie, Evolution vs. God, that “Human beings are still fish” (6:28). When an incredulous Ray Comfort echoes, “Human beings are fish?”, Myers calmly responds, “Why yes, of course they are.” Commenting on the interview with Ray Comfort, Myers declares that “we humans are derived fish.” Finally, in a recent post in response to Professor Jonathan Marks, Myers quotes Professor Marks’ remark:

On the other hand, we also fall phylogenetically within the group that we call “fish.” That is to say, a coelacanth is more closely related to us than it is to a trout. So we fall within the category that encompasses both coelacanths and trout, namely, fish.

and comments:

Yes! He almost has it!

He then goes on to chide Marks for “failure,” for refusing to accept this conclusion. I shall return to Myers’ arguments below. Suffice it for now to note that P.Z. Myers’ own testimony amply refutes Professor Jerry Coyne’s claim that humans are not phylogenetically classified as bony fish. Clearly, they are. As a biologist, Coyne really should have known that.

So, are we apes or not?

Marks elaborates on his argument that we are not apes, but ex-apes, in a TEDx talk (given in 2012) titled, You are not an ape! In the course of his address, Marks humorously contrasts a statement from Jerry Coyne’s best-seller, Why Evolution Is True, with a statement from evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson in his classic work, The Meaning of Evolution (New Haven, Yale University Press, 1949). Writes Coyne:

We are apes descended from other apes, and our closest cousin is the chimpanzee, whose ancestors diverged from our own several million years ago in Africa. These are indisputable facts.

However, Simpson declared the precise opposite:

“It is not a fact that man is an ape.”

Marks explains the apparent contradiction by pointing out that a few decades ago, back in Simpson’s day, scientists were unwilling to make the leap of logic from “Our ancestors were apes” to “We are apes,” whereas scientists today seem to be much more willing to take that step. The change has been largely driven by what Marks calls “twenty years of geno-hype” – that is, “the rhetorical excesses that accompanied the human genome project,” which have given rise to the myth that your DNA is the most important thing about you. However, a comparison of genomes, argues Marks, is a one-dimensional comparison; whereas bodies, on the other hand, are four-dimensional objects. We can’t really explain “how you make a four-dimensional body out of a one-dimensional set of instructions.” The problem here is not a technical but a conceptual one: units of heredity (genes) simply don’t map onto units of the body (e.g. elbows). Marks concludes by posing the question: “Are you just your ancestry?” – a question he answers with an emphatic “No!” We are not peasants, just because our ancestors were; and by the same token, we are not apes, just because our ancestors were. We are fundamentally different from chimpanzees, avers Marks: “We communicate differently, … and quite frankly, we’re driving them to extinction, not vice versa.” These things don’t show up in the DNA, but they’re arguably more important than the things that do show up in the DNA. While our ancestors were apes, we are ex-apes. Ultimately, the reason why the notion that we are apes has recently gained popularity, suggests Marks, is a cultural one: it gives us “one more weapon with which to bludgeon the creationists.” At the conclusion of his talk, Marks warns it’s a bad idea to be so preoccupied with attacking the creationists that you’re willing to say things that are simply wrong.

Humans and apes: What did George Gaylord Simpson actually say?

After listening to Professor Marks’ speech, the first thing I decided to check out was whether he had represented George Gaylord Simspon’s views correctly. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to access Simpson’s classic work, The Meaning of Evolution, online, but I did come across Simple Curiosity; Letters from George Gaylord Simpson to His Family, 1921-1970 (edited by Leo F. Laporte, University of California Press, 1987). In a letter to his sister, written in London in August 1927, Simpson declared himself a staunch human supremacist who considered himself infinitely above the apes, despite his embrace of evolution and his rejection of religion:

… I do get fed up with people who talk about about (sic) the degrading effect of the theory, or rather the fact, that man’s descended from the apes. The great contribution of the theory to human thought is, quite unlike what is thought, that it shows man’s infinite superiority to the lower animals. Everyone know that what we earn is more precious & less likely to be squandered than what is given to us. Our humanity, our character of being human beings, has been earned by the handicaps & battles of a hundred thousand generations. It wasn’t given to us by a gentleman in a long beard. We fought for it & it’s up to us to keep it. We aren’t poor silly weaklings who couldn’t even keep Yahweh from foreclosing his mortgage on our garden, we’re Men who’ve made ourselves such and raised ourselves above the brutes. We’re not on the way down, but on the way up. We didn’t inherit our wealth, we earned it by the sweat of our brows. Because we were once apes is the more reason for not acting like apes now that we are men. (p. 110)

So George Gaylord Simpson, who has been called the greatest paleontologist since Georges Cuvier and the most influential natural historian of the twentieth century, didn’t agree with the view that we are apes, even though he unhesitatingly affirmed that we are descended from apes.

What of Coyne’s and Myers’ arguments that we are apes?

But what, it will be asked, are we to make of Professor Jerry Coyne’s and Professor P.Z. Myers’ arguments that we are apes? Let’s look at Coyne’s arguments first:

If you look up the family Hominidae, you’ll see that it includes all the “great apes”: orangutans, chimps (both common chimps and bonobos), gorillas, and humans. In other words, we are “great apes”. We are also “hominids”, a term once used to refer to every species on “our” side of the evolutionary tree since we diverged from the ancestors of the other apes, but now hominids refers to all the hominidae, and the former “hominid” is now “hominin“. (You can see the full phylogenetic placement of our species here.) Finally, we are in the more inclusive superfamily Hominoidea, which are all apes, including the great apes and the gibbons.

Saying that we are not apes is like saying that Drosophila are not flies (dipterans). It’s just dumb, and somehow meant to set us apart from other great apes. Yes, we do have unique traits, but we’re still in the family of hominids. And, contra Marks, that does not mean that we are our ancestors. It means we share a common ancestor that lived in the past.

There are three glaring problems with the foregoing account.

First of all, Coyne simply assumes that the family of hominids (to which humans, chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans all belong) should be called “great apes,” without providing any justification for this assumption.

The point I wish to make here is that the word “ape” is not a scientific term, but a “folk” term in our ordinary language. As such, its meaning is determined by the people who use it, rather than by a privileged class of experts. Since popular usage distinguishes human beings from apes, it follows that we are not apes.

Second, I should point out that the term “hominid” was originally defined by scientists themselves as the family to which humans belong; the great apes were placed in a separate family of their own: Pongidae. For example, my Concise Oxford Dictionary (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1990) defines the term “hominid” as “any member of the primate family Hominidae, including humans and their fossil ancestors.” No mention here of apes! This was once the customary usage of the term “hominid.” It was only when molecular evidence showed that human and chimpanzee DNA are 98% similar that scientists decided that humans and great apes should be classed in the same family. Pongidae became an obsolete primate primate taxon. Now, I would not contest for a minute that scientists had every right to reclassify humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans in the same family: hominids. What I do deny is that scientists have the right to call this family “great apes.” That’s for the people to decide, not scientists. For it is the people who own the term “ape.”

As for “hominoids” – a term that now includes humans, great apes (chimps , gorillas and orangutans) and gibbons – the simple fact is that there never was a common name corresponding to this scientific term. Indeed, Dr. John R. Grehan, former Director of Science and Research Buffalo Museum of Science, in an article titled, “Primate Taxonomy,” in 21st Century Anthropology: A Reference Handbook (edited by H. James Birx), defines the term “hominoid” as follows: “Hominoids comprise humans, great apes, and lesser apes” (p. 620). Yet Dr. Grehan has no problem with common descent – indeed, he repeatedly affirms it in his article. Hence for Professor Coyne to equate “hominoids” with “apes” is a move that has no linguistic precedent. Once again, Coyne is displaying the impertinence of a scientist trying to mold ordinary human language into the form he thinks it should possess. He has no right to do that. Ordinary language belongs to the people. I say: let them decide what they want the term “ape” to mean.

Third, Coyne’s argument overlooks the very awkward fact that until recently, evolutionary scientists used to deny that human beings were descended from apes. Indeed, I can remember it being drummed into me by my high school science teachers, from Grade 7 onwards, that the theory of evolution does not teach that humans are descended from apes; rather, what it teaches is that humans and apes have a common ancestor. Thus PBS, in its Evolution Library, features a 2001 Web page titled, Frequently Asked Questions About Evolution: Where We Came From, which states:

1. Did we evolve from monkeys?

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn’t evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed 5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

The science in the above passage is a little out-of-date, as humans are now believed to be closer to chimps than gorillas are. Nevertheless, the writer of the article was well aware that humans are closer to chimps than orangutans are – and yet this fact did not cause him/her to reclassify humans as “apes.” Evidently the writer, like Professor Jonathan Marks, viewed humans as ex-apes. And why not?

Likewise, a Webpage by the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, titled, Introduction to Human Evolution (last updated 2015-11-02), states:

Humans and the great apes (large apes) of Africa — chimpanzees (including bonobos, or so-called “pygmy chimpanzees”) and gorillas — share a common ancestor that lived between 8 and 6 million years ago.

Once again, humans are distinguished from the “great apes (large apes) of Africa,” with whom they are said to share a common ancestor.

I now turn to Professor P.Z. Myers’ post. Myers quotes a lengthy passage from Jonathan Marks, pointing out the vast behavioral differences between humans and chimpanzees, as well as the fact that human cells (which have 46 chromosomes) can be readily distinguished from the cells of apes (which have 48). Myers comments:

He’s confusing species with higher levels of the taxonomic hierarchy, that is, the leaves for the branches. If he’s going to take that attitude, there are no apes anywhere — there is no single species we’d call “apes”. Chimpanzees could similarly protest that they aren’t apes, they have a set of characteristics that distinguish them from those other apes, gorillas, humans, and orangutans. Gorillas could announce that they are Gorilla gorilla gorillia (sic), not some damn dirty ape like chimps or humans or orangutans. And so on.

Of course we’re apes. We’re members of a broad group of related animals, and we call that taxonomic group the apes. What he’s doing is similar to if I declared that I’m not human, I’m an American — rejecting affiliation with a general category to claim exclusive membership to a subcategory.

What’s wrong with Myers’ first paragraph is that it assumes that all morphological changes are equal. Chimpanzees do indeed have a set of traits distinguishing them from the ancestor they share with human beings. But by any sensible measure, humans are anatomically far more unlike chimpanzees than chimpanzees are unlike gorillas or orangutans.

But don’t take my word for it. Here’s a picture (courtesy of Wikipedia) showing the hominoids, standing side by side. It’s pretty easy to see that humans look very dissimilar to the great apes:

And here’s another picture, showing frontal views of a human skeleton and a gorilla skeleton. Not so similar, are they?

Finally, Charles Darwin himself was well aware that human beings had evolved to a much greater degree than their simian cousins, and in his Descent of Man, he wrestled with the question of how human beings out to be classified:

As far as differences in certain important points of structure are concerned, man may no doubt rightly claim the rank of a Sub-order; and this rank is too low, if we look chiefly to his mental faculties. Nevertheless, under a genealogical point of view it appears that this rank is too high, and that man ought to form merely a Family, or possibly even only a Sub-family. If we imagine three lines of descent proceeding from a common source, it is quite conceivable that two of them might after the lapse of ages be so slightly changed as still to remain as species of the same genus; whilst the third line might become so greatly modified as to deserve to rank as a distinct Sub-family, Family, or even Order. But in this case it is almost certain that the third line would still retain through inheritance numerous small points of resemblance with the other two lines. Here then would occur the difficulty, at present insoluble, how much weight we ought to assign in our classifications to strongly-marked differences in some few points, — that is to the amount of modification undergone; and how much to close resemblance in numerous unimportant points, as indicating the lines of descent or genealogy. The former alternative is the most obvious, and perhaps the safest, though the latter appears the most correct as giving a truly natural classification.

(Darwin, C. R. 1871. The descent of man, and selection in relation to sex. London: John Murray. Volume 1. 1st edition. Scanned by John van Wyhe in 2006. Chapter VI, p. 195.)

As for the assertion in Myers’ second paragraph quoted above – that Professor Marks’s argument is similar to someone’s declaring that he’s not human, but an American – Myers’ parallel argument falls flat on one very simple point: you don’t acquire any fundamentally new abilities – such as the ability to speak, perform mathematical reasoning, or remember the story of your life (none of which a chimp can do) when you become an American. Compared to the mental Rubicon we crossed in the process of becoming human – whether it happened slowly or very quickly is beside the point here – the acquisition of American citizenship is a relatively minor change.

As we have seen, Marks argues that just as I wouldn’t call myself a peasant just because my ancestors were peasants, likewise I shouldn’t call myself an ape just because my ancestors were apes. I have to say that I don’t think this argument works, either. I still share many physical traits with the apes, with whom I share a common ancestry; on this point, Myers is correct. However, as far as I can tell, I don’t share any distinctive traits with my peasant ancestors.

Finally, in response to Professor Marks’ argument that he is not a fish, because he can read and fish can’t, P.Z. Myers retorts:

Jonathan Marks: go back to school and learn some cladistics. You don’t identify a clade by autapomorphies, or traits that are novel to a species, like reading. It’s like declaring that zebrafish have horizontal stripes, and fish don’t have stripes, therefore they are not fish. It’s stupid on multiple levels.

It hardly needs pointing out that Jonathan Marks is not a cladist: he doesn’t believe in categorizing organisms based on shared derived characteristics that can be traced to a group’s most recent common ancestor. As he writes in his essay, Are we apes? No, we are humans:

We reject the simple equation of ancestry with identity in other contexts. Why should we accept it in science? The short answer is that we shouldn’t.

One reader who commented on Professor Marks’ article perceptively summed up the problem with cladistics:

Evolution is descent with modification. Cladistics emphasizes descent. But some of these modifications are so profoundly game-changing (e.g symbolic communication) that it’s useful to collectively refer to groups that lack them but share ancestral characteristics even if the group is paraphyletic (grade). For example, prokaryotes are paraphyletic but few would have a problem referring to them collectively, and fewer still would say that eukaryotes are archaea.

Since Marks disagrees so fundamentally with cladistics in its approach to human identity, Myers’ suggestion that Marks should go back to school and study it, completely misses the point. The real question is whether my identity is determined more by what happened to my ancestors before they diverged from the line leading to chimpanzees, or by what happened to my ancestors after they diverged from the chimpanzee lineage. For my part, I would wholeheartedly agree with Professor Marks that it is the latter changes that truly constitute my identity as a human being. And I think that any person of good sense would share my view.

I’ll give the last word to anthropologist John Hawks. In his 2012 article, Humans aren’t monkeys. We aren’t apes, either, he attacks what he calls the “canard” that “humans are apes”:

My children can tell what an ape is. I work very hard to tell them why apes are different than monkeys. When they see a chimpanzee in a zoo, and other parents are telling their kids, “Look at the monkey!”, my children say, “That’s not a monkey, it’s an ape!”…

Chimpanzees are apes. Gorillas are apes, as are bonobos, orangutans, and gibbons. We routinely differentiate the “great apes” from the “lesser apes”, where the latter are gibbons and siamangs. Humans are not apes. Humans are hominoids, and all hominoids are anthropoids. So are Old World monkeys like baboons and New World monkeys like marmosets. All of us anthropoids. But humans aren’t monkeys.

What’s the difference?

“Ape” is an English word. It is not a taxonomic term. English words do not need to be monophyletic. French, German, Russian, and other languages do not have to accord with English ways of splitting up animals. Taxonomy is international – everywhere, we recognize that humans are hominoids…

We shouldn’t smuggle taxonomic principles into everyday language to make a political argument. That’s what “humans are apes” ultimately is – it’s an argument that we aren’t as great as we think we are. Whether humans are special or not should be derived from biology; I don’t think we need to make the argument by applying Orwellian coercion to the meanings of English words. Biologists control taxonomic terminology, and that’s where science should aim. I don’t think I’m being old-fashioned, nor am I promoting the idea that humans aren’t part of the primate phylogeny. I’m only promoting the idea that we use taxonomy for its intended purpose, and not insist that English do the job instead.

We aren’t apes. And it’s OK to teach your children that chimpanzees are apes, not monkeys. Because that’s what I do.

What do readers think?

Comments
“We are apes descended from other apes, and our closest cousin is the chimpanzee, whose ancestors diverged from our own several million years ago in Africa. These are indisputable facts.”
Facts that cannot be tested nor verified. They are facts via evolutionary fiat.Virgil Cain
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Thirdly, the alternative splicing code is 'species specific'
Canadian Team Develops Alternative Splicing Code from Mouse Tissue Data Excerpt: “Our method takes as an input a collection of exons and surrounding intron sequences and data profiling how those exons are spliced in different tissues,” Frey and his co-authors wrote. “The method assembles a code that can predict how a transcript will be spliced in different tissues.” http://www.genomeweb.com/informatics/canadian-team-develops-alternative-splicing-code-mouse-tissue-data
And yet these supposed 'junk intron sequences', that Darwinists use to ignore, that were used to decipher the splicing code of different tissue types in an organism, are found to be exceptionally different between chimpanzees and Humans:
Modern origin of numerous alternatively spliced human introns from tandem arrays – 2006 Excerpt: A comparison with orthologous regions in mouse and chimpanzee suggests a young age for the human introns with the most-similar boundaries. Finally, we show that these human introns are alternatively spliced with exceptionally high frequency. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/3/882.full
Of related note:
Characterization and potential functional significance of human-chimpanzee large INDEL variation - October 2011 Excerpt:,,, we categorized human-chimpanzee INDEL (Insertion, Deletion) variation mapping in or around genes and determined whether this variation is significantly correlated with previously determined differences in gene expression. Results: Extensive, large INDEL (Insertion, Deletion) variation exists between the human and chimpanzee genomes. This variation is primarily attributable to retrotransposon insertions within the human lineage. There is a significant correlation between differences in gene expression and large human-chimpanzee INDEL variation mapping in genes or in proximity to them. http://www.mobilednajournal.com/content/pdf/1759-8753-2-13.pdf
Jonathan Wells comments on the Darwinian Logic, within the preceding paper, that attributed the large scale variation that was found to unguided Darwinian processes:
Darwinian Logic: The Latest on Chimp and Human DNA – Jonathan Wells - October 2011 Excerpt: Protein-coding regions of DNA in chimps and humans are remarkably similar -- 98%, by many estimates -- and this similarity has been used as evidence that the two species are descended from a common ancestor. Yet chimps and humans are very different anatomically and behaviorally, and even thirty years ago some biologists were speculating that those differences might be due to non-protein-coding regions, which make up about 98% of chimp and human DNA. (In other words, the 98% similarity refers to only 2% of the genome.) Now a research team headed by John F. McDonald at Georgia Tech has published evidence that large segments of non-protein-coding DNA differ significantly between chimps and humans,,,, If the striking similarities in protein-coding DNA point to the common ancestry of chimps and humans, why don’t dissimilarities in the much more abundant non-protein-coding DNA point to their separate origins? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/the_latest_on_chimp_and_human052291.html
This following, more recent, paper also found that Alternative Splicing patterns are 'species specific':
Evolution by Splicing - Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. - Ruth Williams - December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Gene Regulation Differences Between Humans, Chimpanzees Very Complex – Oct. 17, 2013 Excerpt: Although humans and chimpanzees share,, similar genomes, previous studies have shown that the species evolved major differences in mRNA (messenger RNA) expression levels.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131017144632.htm ,,,Alternative splicing,,, may contribute to species differences - December 21, 2012 Excerpt: After analyzing vast amounts of genetic data, the researchers found that the same genes are expressed in the same tissue types, such as liver or heart, across mammalian species. However, alternative splicing patterns—which determine the segments of those genes included or excluded—vary from species to species.,,, The results from the alternative splicing pattern comparison were very different. Instead of clustering by tissue, the patterns clustered mostly by species. "Different tissues from the cow look more like the other cow tissues, in terms of splicing, than they do like the corresponding tissue in mouse or rat or rhesus," Burge says. Because splicing patterns are more specific to each species, it appears that splicing may contribute preferentially to differences between those species, Burge says,,, Excerpt of Abstract: To assess tissue-specific transcriptome variation across mammals, we sequenced complementary DNA from nine tissues from four mammals and one bird in biological triplicate, at unprecedented depth. We find that while tissue-specific gene expression programs are largely conserved, alternative splicing is well conserved in only a subset of tissues and is frequently lineage-specific. Thousands of previously unknown, lineage-specific, and conserved alternative exons were identified; http://phys.org/news/2012-12-evolution-alternative-splicing-rna-rewires.html
Of related interest to species specific alternative splicing in tissues is the fact that there is tissue-specific spatial organization of genomes :
Tissue-specific spatial organization of genomes - 2004 Excerpt: Using two-dimensional and three-dimensional fluorescence in situ hybridization we have carried out a systematic analysis of the spatial positioning of a subset of mouse chromosomes in several tissues. We show that chromosomes exhibit tissue-specific organization. Chromosomes are distributed tissue-specifically with respect to their position relative to the center of the nucleus and also relative to each other. Subsets of chromosomes form distinct types of spatial clusters in different tissues and the relative distance between chromosome pairs varies among tissues. Consistent with the notion that nonrandom spatial proximity is functionally relevant in determining the outcome of chromosome translocation events, we find a correlation between tissue-specific spatial proximity and tissue-specific translocation prevalence. Conclusion: Our results demonstrate that the spatial organization of genomes is tissue-specific and point to a role for tissue-specific spatial genome organization in the formation of recurrent chromosome arrangements among tissues. http://genomebiology.com/content/5/7/R44
And as Dr. Wells points out, 3-D spatial arrangement of parts is not reducible to DNA sequences:
Not in the Genes: Embryonic Electric Fields - Jonathan Wells - December 2011 Excerpt: although the molecular components of individual sodium-potassium channels may be encoded in DNA sequences, the three-dimensional arrangement of those channels -- which determines the form of the endogenous electric field -- constitutes an independent source of information in the developing embryo. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/not_in_the_gene054071.html
bornagain
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To expand a bit on post 10 where 'orders of magnitude' differences in gene regulatory networks was touched upon: First off, in addition to the genetic code, there is an alternative splicing code:
Deciphering the splicing code - May 2010 Excerpt: Here we describe the assembly of a ‘splicing code’, which uses combinations of hundreds of RNA features to predict tissue-dependent changes in alternative splicing for thousands of exons. The code determines new classes of splicing patterns, identifies distinct regulatory programs in different tissues, and identifies mutation-verified regulatory sequences.,,, http://www.ecs.umass.edu/~mettu/ece597m/lectures/hts-papers/barash-splicing-code.pdf Breakthrough: Second Genetic Code Revealed - May 2010 Excerpt: The paper is a triumph of information science that sounds reminiscent of the days of the World War II codebreakers. Their methods included algebra, geometry, probability theory, vector calculus, information theory, code optimization, and other advanced methods. One thing they had no need of was evolutionary theory,,, http://crev.info/content/breakthrough_second_genetic_code_revealed Researchers Crack 'Splicing Code,' Solve a Mystery Underlying Biological Complexity - May 2010 Excerpt: "Understanding a complex biological system is like understanding a complex electronic circuit. Our team 'reverse-engineered' the splicing code using large-scale experimental data generated by the group," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100505133252.htm
Secondly, alternative splicing is astonishing:
Researchers Crack ‘Splicing Code,’ Solve a Mystery Underlying Biological Complexity Excerpt: “For example, three neurexin genes can generate over 3,000 genetic messages that help control the wiring of the brain,” says Frey. “Previously, researchers couldn’t predict how the genetic messages would be rearranged, or spliced, within a living cell,” Frey said. “The splicing code that we discovered has been successfully used to predict how thousands of genetic messages are rearranged differently in many different tissues. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100505133252.htm Design In DNA – Alternative Splicing, Duons, and Dual coding genes – video (5:05 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm67oXKtH3s#t=305 The Extreme Complexity Of Genes – Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ Time to Redefine the Concept of a Gene? - Sept. 10, 2012 Excerpt: As detailed in my second post on alternative splicing, there is one human gene that codes for 576 different proteins, and there is one fruit fly gene that codes for 38,016 different proteins! While the fact that a single gene can code for so many proteins is truly astounding, we didn’t really know how prevalent alternative splicing is. Are there only a few genes that participate in it, or do most genes engage in it? The ENCODE data presented in reference 2 indicates that at least 75% of all genes participate in alternative splicing. They also indicate that the number of different proteins each gene makes varies significantly, with most genes producing somewhere between 2 and 25. Based on these results, it seems clear that the RNA transcripts are the real carriers of genetic information. This is why some members of the ENCODE team are arguing that an RNA transcript, not a gene, should be considered the fundamental unit of inheritance. http://networkedblogs.com/BYdo8 Landscape of transcription in human cells – Sept. 6, 2012 Excerpt: Here we report evidence that three-quarters of the human genome is capable of being transcribed, as well as observations about the range and levels of expression, localization, processing fates, regulatory regions and modifications of almost all currently annotated and thousands of previously unannotated RNAs. These observations, taken together, prompt a redefinition of the concept of a gene.,,, Isoform expression by a gene does not follow a minimalistic expression strategy, resulting in a tendency for genes to express many isoforms simultaneously, with a plateau at about 10–12 expressed isoforms per gene per cell line. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7414/full/nature11233.html
bornagain
November 4, 2015
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Thanks Andre.bornagain
November 4, 2015
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It’s all about human exceptionalism, which leaves the same bad taste in the mouth...
But only in human mouths, oddly.Jon Garvey
November 4, 2015
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So when Larry Moran and Nick Matzke tell us that CD is a fact, always know that they call it a fact based on the assumptions they made. What is an assumption?
as·sump·tion ??s?m(p)SH(?)n/ noun noun: assumption; plural noun: assumptions; noun: Assumption 1. a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof. "they made certain assumptions about the market" synonyms: supposition, presumption, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, premise, hypothesis;
Andre
November 3, 2015
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I'll tell you wahts really interesting.... In many of the threads CD has come up often and check what they say;
What assumptions do cladists make? There are three basic assumptions in cladistics: Any group of organisms are related by descent from a common ancestor. There is a bifurcating pattern of cladogenesis. Change in characteristics occurs in lineages over time. The first assumption is a general assumption made for all evolutionary biology. It essentially means that life arose on earth only once, and therefore all organisms are related in some way or other. Because of this, we can take any collection of organisms and determine a meaningful pattern of relationships, provided we have the right kind of information. Again, the assumption states that all the diversity of life on earth has been produced through the reproduction of existing organisms. The second assumption is perhaps the most controversial; that is, that new kinds of organisms may arise when existing species or populations divide into exactly two groups. There are many biologists who hold that multiple new lineages can arise from a single originating population at the same time, or near enough in time to be indistinguishable from such an event. While this model could conceivably occur, it is not currently known how often this has actually happened. The other objection raised against this assumption is the possibility of interbreeding between distinct groups. This, however, is a general problem of reconstructing evolutionary history, and although it cannot currently be handled well by cladistic methods, no other system has yet been devised which accounts for it. The final assumption, that characteristics of organisms change over time, is the most important assumption in cladistics. It is only when characteristics change that we are able to recognize different lineages or groups. The convention is to call the "original" state of the characteristic plesiomorphic and the "changed" state apomorphic. The terms "primitive" and "derived" have also been used for these states, but they are often avoided by cladists, since those terms have been much abused in the past.
Assumptions are the mother of all?Andre
November 3, 2015
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Mung From Berklely
Cladistics is a particular method of hypothesizing relationships among organisms. Like other methods, it has its own set of assumptions, procedures, and limitations. Cladistics is now accepted as the best method available for phylogenetic analysis, for it provides an explicit and testable hypothesis of organismal relationships. The basic idea behind cladistics is that members of a group share a common evolutionary history, and are "closely related," more so to members of the same group than to other organisms. These groups are recognized by sharing unique features which were not present in distant ancestors. These shared derived characteristics are called synapomorphies.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/clad/clad1.html I'm all for this except, how about classifying the differences too? Similarities are easy.Andre
November 3, 2015
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Mung you claim, without qualification, that "Cladistics is empirical science." To repeat, no, cladistics does not qualify as a real time empirical science since there is zero experimental evidence that you can produce to support the claim that transformation of one kind of species into another kind of species is possible. If you want to say cladistics can qualify as a real time empirical science minus any experimental support for transformation, that is your preference. It is a low threshold IMHO if you do prefer that. My personal threshold for what qualifies as a real time empirical science must include experimentation, or else we are back to arguing over personal preferences without the arbiter of real world testing to settle the matter. i.e. think of the ancient Greeks pronouncing on how the world should behave instead of checking to see how it actually did behave.bornagain
November 3, 2015
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We are not apes. We are created in gods image and soul smart for that reason. We just have the best body on earth for us. Staying within the basic spectrum of biology. We can't have our own body or a body represeting our identity. So we uniquely do not. Our kind is the only kind to have another kinds bode. The best evos can say is that people are in a evolved state from previous stock populations. The classification system we use is not accurate. There are no apes. They also, they should say, are a population in a evolved state from former stick populations. By definition we are not the same population. So we are not apes even by their goofy ideas.. We are simply-- most recent primate section of biology stock population in a continued population separation. biology is equations too. if everything is a wee few steps from everything else then whats with the catergories. Got a hunch a particular population has hijacked the whole biology spectrum classification system. Not throwing names however.Robert Byers
November 3, 2015
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Seversky And why exactly are you not exceptional?Andre
November 3, 2015
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Yet, cladistics does not even qualify as an empirical science.
Cladistics is empirical science.Mung
November 3, 2015
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I have no problem with being an ape. Besides, this has nothing to do with taxonomy. It's all about human exceptionalism, which leaves the same bad taste in the mouth as American exceptionalism or white exceptionalism or Christian exceptionalism or any other kind of exceptionalism where one group of people believe themselves to be better than all the rest because of their skin color or nationality or faith or whatever.Seversky
November 3, 2015
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Well Nick Matzke made the same howler on these very forum calling is fish.Andre
November 3, 2015
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Humans were not part of the Ape Family until the 1970s or so. Maybe the 60s. Hairy armpits on hippy chicks iirc. For the record, I was not born an ape.ppolish
November 3, 2015
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Kangaroo genes close to humans Excerpt: Australia’s kangaroos are genetically similar to humans,,, “There are a few differences, we have a few more of this, a few less of that, but they are the same genes and a lot of them are in the same order,” ,,,”We thought they’d be completely scrambled, but they’re not. There is great chunks of the human genome which is sitting right there in the kangaroo genome,” http://www.reuters.com/article/science%20News/idUSTRE4AH1P020081118 First Decoded Marsupial Genome Reveals “Junk DNA” Surprise – 2007 Excerpt: In particular, the study highlights the genetic differences between marsupials such as opossums and kangaroos and placental mammals like humans, mice, and dogs. ,,, The researchers were surprised to find that placental and marsupial mammals have largely the same set of genes for making proteins. Instead, much of the difference lies in the controls that turn genes on and off. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070510-opossum-dna.html Where could we have learned but from Phys.org – Sept. 28, 2014 Excerpt: “We have basically the same 20,000 (30,000?) protein-coding genes as a frog, yet our genome is much more complicated, with more layers of gene regulation.” per UD News
Yet it is exactly in these genetic regulatory networks, just as King and Wilson theorized, that ‘orders of magnitude’ differences are found between species:
Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Gene Regulation Differences Between Humans, Chimpanzees Very Complex – Oct. 17, 2013 Excerpt: Although humans and chimpanzees share,, similar genomes, previous studies have shown that the species evolved major differences in mRNA (messenger RNA) expression levels.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131017144632.htm “Where (chimps and humans) really differ, and they differ by orders of magnitude, is in the genomic architecture outside the protein coding regions. They are vastly, vastly, different.,, The structural, the organization, the regulatory sequences, the hierarchy for how things are organized and used are vastly different between a chimpanzee and a human being in their genomes.” Raymond Bohlin (per Richard Sternberg) – 9:29 minute mark of video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ On Human Origins: Is Our Genome Full of Junk DNA? Pt 2. – Richard Sternberg PhD. Evolutionary Biology Excerpt: “Here’s the interesting thing, when you look at the protein coding sequences that you have in your cell what you find is that they are nearly identical to the protein coding sequences of a dog, of a carp, of a fruit fly, of a nematode. They are virtually the same and they are interchangeable. You can knock out a gene that encodes a protein for an inner ear bone in say a mouse. This has been done. And then you can take a protein that is similar to it but from a fruit fly. And fruit flies aren’t vertebrates and they certainly are not mammals., so they don’t have inner ear bones. And you can plug that gene in and guess what happens? The offspring of the mouse will have a perfectly normal inner ear bone. So you can swap out all these files. I mentioning this to you because when you hear about we are 99% similar (to chimps) it is almost all referring to those protein coding regions. When you start looking, and you start comparing different mammals. Dolphins, aardvarks, elephants, manatees, humans, chimpanzees,, it doesn’t really matter. What you find is that the protein coding sequences are very well conserved, and there is also a lot of the DNA that is not protein coding that is also highly conserved. But when you look at the chromosomes and those banding patterns, those bar codes, (mentioned at the beginning of the talk), its akin to going into the grocery store. You see a bunch of black and white lines right? You’ve seen one bar code you’ve seen them all. But those bar codes are not the same.,, Here’s an example, aardvark and human chromosomes. They look very similar at the DNA level when you take small snippets of them. (Yet) When you look at how they are arranged in a linear pattern along the chromosome they turn out to be very distinct (from one another). So when you get to the folder and the super-folder and the higher order level, that’s when you find these striking differences. And here is another example. They are now sequencing the nuclear DNA of the Atlantic bottle-nose dolphin. And when they started initially sequencing the DNA, the first thing they realized is that basically the Dolphin genome is almost wholly identical to the human genome. That is, there are a few chromosome rearrangements here and there, you line the sequences up and they fit very well. Yet no one would argue, based on a statement like that, that bottle-nose dolphins are closely related to us. Our sister species if you will. No one would presume to do that. So you would have to layer in some other presumption. But here is the point. You will see these statements throughout the literature of how common things are.,,, (Parts lists are very similar, but how the parts are used is where you will find tremendous differences) http://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/2014/11/on-human-origins-is-our-genome-full-of-junk-dna-pt-2/
Moreover, unlike protein coding regions where there is some ‘non-catastrophic’ tolerance to random mutations, randomly mutating gene regulatory networks is found to be ‘always catastrophically bad':
A Listener’s Guide to the Meyer-Marshall Debate: Focus on the Origin of Information Question -Casey Luskin – December 4, 2013 Excerpt: “There is always an observable consequence if a dGRN (developmental gene regulatory network) subcircuit is interrupted. Since these consequences are always catastrophically bad, flexibility is minimal, and since the subcircuits are all interconnected, the whole network partakes of the quality that there is only one way for things to work. And indeed the embryos of each species develop in only one way.” – Eric Davidson – developmental biologist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/12/a_listeners_gui079811.html
Thus, where Darwinists most need plasticity in the genome to be viable as a theory, (i.e. developmental Gene Regulatory Networks), is the place where mutations are found to be ‘always catastrophically bad’. Yet, it is exactly in this area of the genome (i.e. regulatory networks) where substantial, ‘orders of magnitude’, differences are found between even supposedly closely related species. Needless to say, this is the exact opposite finding for what Darwinism would have predicted for what should have been found in the genome. If Darwinism were a normal science, instead of being basically the unfalsifiable ‘blind faith’ religion of atheists, this finding, by itself, should have been more than enough to falsify neo-Darwinian claims. Of supplemental note to Richard Sternberg’s ‘bar codes are not the same’ between species quote. It turns out that the bar code pattern that Dr. Sternberg alluded to is irreducibly complex in its organizational relation to the individual genes:
Refereed scientific article on DNA argues for irreducible complexity – October 2, 2013 Excerpt: This paper published online this summer is a true mind-blower showing the irreducible organizational complexity (author’s description) of DNA analog and digital information, that genes are not arbitrarily positioned on the chromosome etc.,, ,,,First, the digital information of individual genes (semantics) is dependent on the the intergenic regions (as we know) which is like analog information (syntax). Both types of information are co-dependent and self-referential but you can’t get syntax from semantics. As the authors state, “thus the holistic approach assumes self-referentiality (completeness of the contained information and full consistency of the different codes) as an irreducible organizational complexity of the genetic regulation system of any cell”. In short, the linear DNA sequence contains both types of information. Second, the paper links local DNA structure, to domains, to the overall chromosome configuration as a dynamic system keying off the metabolic signals of the cell. This implies that the position and organization of genes on the chromosome is not arbitrary,,, http://www.christianscientific.org/refereed-scientific-article-on-dna-argues-for-irreducibly-complexity/
Thus in conclusion, however justified someone may feel in believing in common descent, the fact of the matter is that they are basing their belief on their own personal preference as to what they want to personally believe and are not believing in common descent because of any compelling empirical evidence. (In fact, the real time empirical evidence itself rejects the 'theory of transformation') Verse and Music:
Genesis 1:24-25 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. Casting Crowns - Broken Together (Official Music Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhxELo-uD3c
bornagain
November 3, 2015
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Dr. Torley, since I don't believe common descent is true from the empirical evidence, I was reading your article with an eye out for whatever empirical evidence might be presented that common descent was true. From what I can tell, there are two lines of evidence that are used. The 98% genetic similarity figure, (which I personally hold to be questionable), and cladistics. Yet, cladistics does not even qualify as an empirical science. Cladistics is basically just someone sitting behind a desk and making subjective guesses as to what they personally think is similar and dissimilar and drawing lines to connect those subjective guesses. As should be obvious, cladistics has been much abused by Darwinists in the past in order to infer relationships that never existed in reality. In fact, Nick Matzke relied heavily on the non-empirically based, subjective, 'art' of cladistic analysis to try to counter Stephen Meyer's book "Darwin's Doubt". In fact, in seeing how badly Matzke got hammered by Berlinski for using cladistics to try to attack "Darwin's Doubt", I was shocked to learn just how non-scientific cladistic analysis actually is. Simply put, cladistics, (i.e. drawing lines on a sheet of paper), by presupposing the conclusion of common ancestry into its premises, is shamelessly abused by Darwinists to infer relationships between groups that never existed:
A One-Man Clade – David Berlinski – July 18, 2013 Excerpt: The relationship between cladistics and Darwin's theory of evolution is thus one of independent origin but convergent confusion. "Phylogenetic systematics," the entomologist Michael Schmitt remarks, "relies on the theory of evolution." To the extent that the theory of evolution relies on phylogenetic systematics, the disciplines resemble two biologists dropped from a great height and clutching at one another in mid-air. Tight fit, major fail.7 No wonder that Schmidt is eager to affirm that "phylogenetics does not claim to prove or explain evolution whatsoever."8 If this is so, a skeptic might be excused for asking what it does prove or might explain? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/a_one_man_clade074601.html Cladistics Made Easy: Why an Arcane Field of Study Fails to Upset Steve Meyer's Argument for Intelligent Design Stephen Meyer - Responding to Critics: Matzke Part 1 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY2B76JbMQ4 Stephen Meyer - Responding to Critics: Matzke Part 2 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZWw18b3nHo Responding to Critics: Matzke Part 3 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77XappzJh1k
To make it perfectly clear, there is no actual real time empirical evidence to suggest that transformation between distinct kinds of 'forms' is possible. Thus, cladistic analysis truly is just someone sitting behind a desk making subjective guesses as to what he thinks is similar and then drawing lines on a sheet of paper, and thus, cladistics certainly does not even qualify as a true empirical science in the first place:
‘No matter what we do to a fruit fly embryo there are only three possible outcomes, a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly. What we never see is primary speciation much less macro-evolution’ – Jonathan Wells Darwin’s Theory – Fruit Flies and Morphology – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs Response to John Wise – October 2010 Excerpt: A technique called “saturation mutagenesis”1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12 None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans–because none of the observed developmental mutations benefit the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.html “While it may be an adequate scenario for the refinement of some already-existing characters — the beaks of finches, color intensity of moths — the “microevolutionary” process envisioned by Darwin and his successors does not account in any plausible way for “macroevolutionary” patterns such as the differences between oysters and grasshoppers, fish and birds. ” ~ Stuart Newman, “Where do complex organisms come from.” Common Descent? - Some Insurmountable Problems/Barriers (for gradualism and/or transformation) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BBU4GVEPIxDDSre6YLqU5zbaXVdSk4RRMD8F7GU3DPM/edit
But some may say, well there really are many morphological similarities between us and apes that give us every right to infer, minus any actual empirical evidence, that such transformations are possible. Yet, contrary to that seemingly reasonable objection, at the morphological and behavioral level we find that Chimps and Humans are far more different than is commonly believed. In fact, King and Wilson, who were the first ones to suggest that we are 98% similar to chimps at the genetic level, said that since the morphological and behavioral disparity between chimps and humans is so great then the morphological and behavioral disparity between humans and apes must be due to variations in their genomic regulatory systems since such similarity in the protein coding regions obviously could not explain that great morphological and behavioral disparity between chimps and humans.
In “Science,” 1975, M-C King and A.C. Wilson were the first to publish a paper estimating the degree of similarity between the human and the chimpanzee genome. This documented the degree of genetic similarity between the two! The study, using a limited data set, found that we were far more similar than was thought possible at the time. Hence, we must be one with apes mustn’t we? But…in the second section of their paper King and Wilson honestly describe the deficiencies of such reasoning: “The molecular similarity between chimpanzees and humans is extraordinary because they differ far more than sibling species in anatomy and way of life. Although humans and chimpanzees are rather similar in the structure of the thorax and arms, they differ substantially not only in brain size but also in the anatomy of the pelvis, foot, and jaws, as well as in relative lengths of limbs and digits (38). Humans and chimpanzees also differ significantly in many other anatomical respects, to the extent that nearly every bone in the body of a chimpanzee is readily distinguishable in shape or size from its human counterpart (38). Associated with these anatomical differences there are, of course, major differences in posture (see cover picture), mode of locomotion, methods of procuring food, and means of communication. Because of these major differences in anatomy and way of life, biologists place the two species not just in separate genera but in separate families (39). So it appears that molecular and organismal methods of evaluating the chimpanzee human difference yield quite different conclusions (40).” King and Wilson went on to suggest that the morphological and behavioral between humans and apes,, must be due to variations in their genomic regulatory systems. David Berlinski – The Devil’s Delusion – Page 162&163 Evolution at Two Levels in Humans and Chimpanzees Mary-Claire King; A. C. Wilson – 1975
In fact, so great are the anatomical differences between humans and chimps that a Darwinist, since pigs are anatomically closer to humans than chimps are, actually proposed that a chimp and pig mated with each other and that is what ultimately gave rise to humans. (I guess even hybridization knows no limits in the minds of some Darwinists). Moreover, Physorg published a subsequent article showing that the pig-chimp hybrid theory for human origins is much harder to shoot down than some other Darwinists, who opposed McCarthy’s radical theory, had first supposed it would be:
Human hybrids: a closer look at the theory and evidence – July 25, 2013 Excerpt: There was considerable fallout, both positive and negative, from our first story covering the radical pig-chimp hybrid theory put forth by Dr. Eugene McCarthy,,,By and large, those coming out against the theory had surprisingly little science to offer in their sometimes personal attacks against McCarthy. ,,,Under the alternative hypothesis (humans are not pig-chimp hybrids), the assumption is that humans and chimpanzees are equally distant from pigs. You would therefore expect chimp traits not seen in humans to be present in pigs at about the same rate as are human traits not found in chimps. However, when he searched the literature for traits that distinguish humans and chimps, and compiled a lengthy list of such traits, he found that it was always humans who were similar to pigs with respect to these traits. This finding is inconsistent with the possibility that humans are not pig-chimp hybrids, that is, it rejects that hypothesis.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-07-human-hybrids-closer-theory-evidence.html
Of course there is not one single scrap of empirical evidence that suggests that such radically different creatures, such as pigs and chimps, could ever successfully produce viable offspring. But alas, when your theory is built on storytelling in the first place, (and not on any real time empirical evidence), then of course you are not going to be able to shoot down another ‘just so story’ just because you don’t like how the narrative contradicts your preferred narrative of man ascending from monkeys. Moreover, although such similarity should certainly place pigs somewhere very close to humans on some imaginary cladogram, how many would truly believe such a cladogram? Which further highlights the bogusness of such cladograms. Thus since cladograms are certainly ripe for abuse, and are not real science, what about the supposed 'real' empirical evidence of 98% genetic similarity that was cited in Dr. Torley's article? Well, as with Mark Twain's death, this evidence is greatly exaggerated. As King and Wilson pointed out, the morphological and behavioral disparity between humans and apes must be due to variations in their genomic regulatory systems, (since the genetic similarity obviously cannot explain that great morphological and behavioral disparity between chimps and humans). And indeed, we find that it is indeed in the genetic regulatory regions that we find ‘orders of magnitude’ and ‘species specific’ differences between not only chimps and humans, but also in other species as well. First off, genetic similarity is far more widespread, across very different species, than Darwinists expected the genetic similarity to be:
Shark and human proteins “stunningly similar”; shark closer to human than to zebrafish – December 9, 2013 Excerpt: “We were very surprised to find, that for many categories of proteins, sharks share more similarities with humans than zebrafish,” Stanhope said. “Although sharks and bony fishes are not closely related, they are nonetheless both fish … while mammals have very different anatomies and physiologies. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/shark-and-human-proteins-stunningly-similar-shark-closer-to-human-than-to-zebrafish/
bornagain
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"humans are Hominidae, just like gorillas" But they aren't just like gorillas. What makes them different? Andrewasauber
November 3, 2015
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asauber: Why wouldn’t they be? The definition of the term 'ape' has drifted towards the scientific usage, so humans are often called apes, but some people, perhaps most people, still use the old definition. By the way, that's why scientists often coin terms specific to their fields of study. Whether humans are 'apes' or not, humans are Hominidae, just like gorillas.Zachriel
November 3, 2015
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"humans may not be apes" Zachy, Why wouldn't they be? Andrewasauber
November 3, 2015
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vjtorley: What do readers think? Depends on context. Very few people say they are a fish, which, in day-to-day usage, retains its original meaning. However, if Shubin says "Your Inner Fish", it's not that hard to understand in context. Funny thing is, humans may not be 'apes', but they are deuterostomes.Zachriel
November 3, 2015
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Aping Mankind: Neuromania, Darwinitis and the Misrepresentation of HumanityMung
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Hi VJT. Thanks for the article, as always. For Marks: Tales of the Ex-Apes: How We Think about Human Evolution For Simpson: The Meaning of Evolution: A Study of the History of Life and of Its Significance for Man footnote 2: ...and must have known perfectly well that they distort the truth.Mung
November 3, 2015
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At the conclusion of his talk, Marks warns it’s a bad idea to be so preoccupied with attacking the creationists that you’re willing to say things that are simply wrong.
:)Mung
November 3, 2015
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“To call us ‘apes’ or ‘fish’ because our ancestry resides among those organisms is a trivial statement about how those categories are artificially constructed, not a profound revelation about our natural identity,” writes Marks. But, but. We're deuterostomes. And that is profound.Mung
November 3, 2015
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