Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why Darwinism is Protected by the First Amendment

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Everyone understands that the only conceivable alternative to Darwinism is intelligent design, and everyone understands that ID is a religious idea. Thus if you criticize Darwinism on any minor point you are promoting ID, and promoting religion in the classroom is forbidden by the “freedom from religion” amendment. That is why, no matter how many scientific problems you see with Darwin’s explanation for the causes of evolution, it is unconstitutional to criticize his theory in the classroom.

Nevertheless, in case any of you biology teachers want to try this, I have an idea on how you might be able to point out some problems with Darwinism in your classroom without violating the U.S. Constitution, by sharing the following New York Times report on a 1980 meeting at the Chicago Field Museum of Natural History. Of course if you share this article with your class, be very careful to:

  1. Point out that while the article admits that more and more scientists doubt that natural selection can explain “macroevolution,” it still calls evolution a “fact,” and says that jettisoning Darwinism actually “reflects significant progress toward a much deeper understanding of the history of life on Earth.” (Well, it does.)
  2. Point out that while the article concludes that in the fossil record, “there are very few examples—some say none—of one species shading gradually into another,” it includes an obligatory jab at “fundamentalists” who misunderstand this as a weakness in the theory evolution itself.

If you follow these simple guidelines, maybe the courts will be reluctant to rule that introducing a New York Times article into your class is unconstitutional, and uphold your right to admit you don’t have a clue as to the causes of evolution. Probably not, but someone should try it to be sure.

Comments
Our opponents are seriously handicapped. I am starting to feel sorry for them. Their position needs protection and cannot handle scrutiny. Heck if we recruited enough high school students we could shut down the teaching of evolutionism in science classes. All we have to do is get them to ask questions about the efficacy of natural selection.ET
September 9, 2018
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as to this claim from Seversky, "High school science teachers should be presenting what is the current state of knowledge and thinking in the various scientific disciplines. In biology,,," Then why do they not allow "current" evidence against evolution into biology textbooks? And why do they continue to recycle false "Zombie Icons of Evolution" that are known to be false?
‘Icons Of Evolution’ – Tenth Anniversary – video clip playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLR8eQzfCOiS2RPQAPifs6t__mIAqITpYy Jonathan Wells Presents Zombie Science at National Book Launch – video – 2017 https://youtu.be/I2UHLPVHjug?list=PLR8eQzfCOiS1rO4HiEiRBLalzTx-TaKYC&t=79
As for the rest of your post, You want desperately to deny that your atheism is a religion just so you can play semantics and say that 'religion' is not being taught in the classroom with Darwinism. But any theory of origins necessarily impinges on metaphysical 'religious claims'. Far deeper metaphysical 'religious claims' than any atheist in a prison library may wish to invoke for his personal belief system. That you would try to deny that Darwinism "takes a position on Divinity" reveals either that you have not read Darwin's book "Origin of Species", and subsequent books by leading evolutionary apologist, or else that you are completely ignorant of the (bad liberal) religious foundation that undergirds Darwinian thought. (After all Darwin's only college degree was in liberal theology was it not?). (See post 1 for references)bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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Seversky:
High school science teachers should be presenting what is the current state of knowledge and thinking in the various scientific disciplines.
Except there isn't any knowledge when it comes to blind watchmaker evolution. Its claims can't even be tested. It is pseudoscience at its finest.
In biology, the current orthodoxy is the theory of evolution...
Except there isn't any scientific theory of evolution. Darwin had people trying to prove a negative to falsify his claims. That is a first-grader mistake
whether you like it or not, and intelligent design is a fringe movement with a clear religious purpose which has yet to gain any significant scientific traction.
You are a clown. ID makes testable claims- unlike your position which is pure BS. ID doesn't have any of the attributes of religion and you will never be able to make a case that shows otherwise. You are just a clueless troll.ET
September 9, 2018
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bornagain77 @ 12
Seversky implies that the constitution gives atheists the unalienable right to teach their unsubstantiated pseusoscientific Darwinian creation myth in the public schools because to allow otherwise, i.e. to allow the possibility that the unfathomable complexity we see in life might have been intelligently designed, is to teach religion.
High school science teachers should be presenting what is the current state of knowledge and thinking in the various scientific disciplines. In biology, the current orthodoxy is the theory of evolution, whether you like it or not, and intelligent design is a fringe movement with a clear religious purpose which has yet to gain any significant scientific traction.
“We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion. See Reed v. Great Lakes Cos., 330 F.3d 931, 934 (7th Cir. 2003) (‘If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.’)” “The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a ‘religion’ for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions”
The courts have decided to treat atheism as equivalent to a religion in specific cases and for specific purposes - the other case that comes to mind was atheist inmate access to a prison library - but they have not declared atheism to be a religion in that it possesses all the attributes which have been agreed to define a religion generally.Seversky
September 9, 2018
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Natural selection works at the population level.
Evos don't even understand their own position. How pathetic is that? You guys don't understand ID. You don't understand your own position. Perhaps you should get educated and then come back when you have something of substance to post.ET
September 9, 2018
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Seversky- Natural selection has proven to be a bust. So they should stick to teaching biology in biology class. If students started asking their teachers how they can test the claim that natural selection is a designer mimic the teachers would stop teaching it. That is all it would take- students demanding that their teachers provide the answers or stop teaching such obvious nonsense. Would that be OK with you, Seversky?
Should secularists be allowed into the religious studies classroom to present the atheist case against God and Christianity?
What are they going to do, drool?ET
September 9, 2018
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Seversky's infamous Dawkins' quote against God at post 24, in regards to the false revisionist history of atheists, (i.e. "enlightenment thinking" saving us from Christianity), is a sad and pathetic joke that doesn't even address the main issue at hand. (i.e. that the 'randomness/chaos presupposition of' Atheism cannot ground rationality and science in the first place.) A few more notes, (in addition to post 6), on the false revisionist history of Atheists:
The Two Guys to Blame for the Myth of Constant Warfare between Religion and Science - February 27, 2015 Excerpt: Timothy Larsen, a Christian historian who specializes in the nineteenth century, notes: The so-called “war” between faith and learning, specifically between orthodox Christian theology and science, was manufactured during the second half of the nineteenth century. It is a construct that was created for polemical purposes. No one deserves more blame for this stubborn myth than these two men: Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918), the founding president of Cornell University, and John William Draper (1811-1882), professor of chemistry at the University of New York. http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2015/02/27/the-two-guys-to-blame-for-the-myth-of-constant-warfare-between-religion-and-science/ Why Are the Middle Ages Often Characterized as Dark or Less Civilized? - Tim O'Neill, M.A. in medieval literature and has studied most aspects of the medieval period for many years: Excerpt: The idea of the whole Middle Ages as a "dark age" therefore actually comes from the early modern Renaissance and humanist movements and their denigration of their immediate forebears and idolization and idealization of the Greeks and Romans. Thus, the period between the Romans and this idealization in the early modern era became called the medium aevum—the "ages in the middle," or the Middle Ages. They became traditionally characterized as a backward step, where art became "primitive" (because only realistic art could be "good" art), architecture was "barbaric" or "gothic," and innovation was stagnant. These false ideas are still current partly because historians have only begun to revise our understanding of the Middle Ages quite recently and this is taking some time to seep into popular consciousness. But the prejudice against the Middle Ages is also driven by some strong cultural currents in our own time. Those with an animus against Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular like to cling to the old idea of the Middle Ages as a "dark age" because it suits their preconceptions about religion and forms a neat little fable where modernity is "good" and the medieval period is "bad." Historians avoid these simplistic value judgments and reject the assumptions on which they are made, but simple pseudo historical fairy tales are hard to budge. http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2015/01/15/medieval_history_why_are_the_middle_age_often_characterized_as_dark_or_less.html “THE DARK AGES” – POPERY, PERIODISATION AND PEJORATIVES - Tim O'Neill - 2016 Excerpt: The concept of “the Dark Ages” is central to several key elements in New Atheist Bad History. One of the primary myths most beloved by many New Atheists is the one whereby Christianity violently suppressed ancient Greco-Roman learning, destroyed an ancient intellectual culture based on pure reason and retarded a nascent scientific and technological revolution, thus plunging Europe into a one thousand year “dark age” which was only relieved by the glorious dawn of “the Renaissance”. Like most New Atheist Bad History, it’s a commonly held and popularly believed set of ideas that has its origin in polemicists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries but which has been rejected by more recent historians. But its New Atheist adherents don’t like to hear that last part and get very agitated when they do.,,,,, Concluding paragraph It should be clear by now that value-laden terms like “dark ages” and “Renaissance” belong to a period of dusty historiography that modern scholarship has long since outgrown. The very early medieval centuries certainly did see fragmentation, technology loss and the break down of long distance trade and an acceleration of the ongoing collapse of learning in western Europe. But to characterise the entire medieval period as a “dark age” because of this is clearly absurd. And while the nineteenth century idolisation of Classical art meant that they were inevitably going to see the art and architecture movement we call “the Renaissance” as “superior” to more stylised and native medieval forms, for anyone post-Picasso or Le Corbusier to do so is fairly philistinic. Anyone with even a passing grasp of history now understands that the Medieval Period was a long and diverse one thousand year span of remarkable change and development, in which Europe went from being a backwater that suffered most from the collapse of the Western Empire, to an economic, technical and military powerhouse that was on the brink of a global expansion. https://historyforatheists.com/2016/11/the-dark-ages-popery-periodisation-and-pejoratives/
bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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Granville Sewell @ 11
I once suggested, here: https://evolutionnews.org/2015/06/how_to_teach_th/ that some HS biology teacher might share the contents of this article with their students, and only reveal the source at their disciplinary hearing. It might be too late by then to save their job, but if they were fired just for sharing a N.Y.Times News Service account of a Chicago Field Museum meeting, that might help people understand how badly needed are the academic freedom laws Discovery Institute is promoting around the country.
If that is what you believe then you were no doubt comforted and encouraged by the survey of high school biology teachers which found that around 70% did not even mention evolution in class by name for fear of an adverse reaction from students and their parents and that 13% admitted to openly advocating creationism in flagrant violation both of their contractual and ethical duties as teachers and the First Amendment. So who should decide what is taught in the high school science class? The parents and their pastors? Should only science which is judged to be consistent with the doctrines of their church be allowed? Or, if your purpose is to require that science teachers provide a fair summary of the strengths and weaknesses of a current theory - something I would not object to in principle - would you extend that requirement to religious studies? Should secularists be allowed into the religious studies classroom to present the atheist case against God and Christianity?Seversky
September 9, 2018
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As well, instead of antibiotic resistant genes being something new, as Darwinists assume they are, it is now found that 'those vexing (antibiotic resistance) genes turn up everywhere in nature that scientists look for them',,,
Antibiotic resistance genes are essentially everywhere - May 8, 2014 Excerpt: The largest metagenomic search for antibiotic resistance genes in the DNA sequences of microbial communities from around the globe has found that bacteria carrying those vexing genes turn up everywhere in nature that scientists look for them,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140508121347.htm
Also of note; there also appears to be a in-built (designed) mechanism in bacteria, which kicks in during starvation, which allows wild type bacteria to more robustly resist antibiotics than 'well fed' bacteria in the laboratory;
Starving bacteria fight antibiotics harder? - November 2011 Excerpt: Bacteria become highly tolerant to antibiotics when nutrients are limited. https://uncommondescent.com/news/starving-bacteria-fight-antibiotics-harder/
As antibiotic resistance itself indicates, supposed beneficial adaptations that are often touted by Darwinists as proof of evolution are actually the result of degraded molecular abilities. Lee Spetner, in his book 'Not By Chance' remarked that, 'Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume.'
"The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume." Lee Spetner (Ph.D. Physics - MIT - Not By Chance - 1997) http://theoutlet.us/SummaryofSpetnersNotbyChance.pdf
In 2016, Lee Spetner went on to remark, 'there is no example of a random mutation that adds heritable information to the genome, and that statement still stands.'
Gloves Off -- Responding to David Levin on the Nonrandom Evolutionary Hypothesis - Lee M. Spetner - Sept. 2016 Excerpt: I wrote in this book (as well in an earlier book) that there is no example of a random mutation that adds heritable information to the genome, and that statement still stands. The statement is important because evolution is about building up information (Spetner 1964, 1968, 1970). Some have offered what they think are counterexamples of my statement, but they are often not of random mutations at all, or they otherwise fail to be valid counterexamples. Levin finds the statement astonishing, and it may well astonish someone who believes evolutionary theory represents reality. But it happens to be true, and I am not surprised that it astonishes him because it deals a deathblow to evolutionary theory. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/09/gloves_off_--_r103168.html
As to citrate metabolism, Scott Minnich falsified that claim in 2016
Rapid Evolution of Citrate Utilization by Escherichia coli by Direct Selection Requires citT and dctA. - Minnich - Feb. 2016 The isolation of aerobic citrate-utilizing Escherichia coli (Cit(+)) in long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) has been termed a rare, innovative, presumptive speciation event. We hypothesized that direct selection would rapidly yield the same class of E. coli Cit(+) mutants and follow the same genetic trajectory: potentiation, actualization, and refinement. This hypothesis was tested,,, Potentiation/actualization mutations occurred within as few as 12 generations, and refinement mutations occurred within 100 generations.,,, E. coli cannot use citrate aerobically. Long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) performed by Blount et al. (Z. D. Blount, J. E. Barrick, C. J. Davidson, and R. E. Lenski, Nature 489:513-518, 2012, http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature11514 ) found a single aerobic, citrate-utilizing E. coli strain after 33,000 generations (15 years). This was interpreted as a speciation event. Here we show why it probably was not a speciation event. Using similar media, 46 independent citrate-utilizing mutants were isolated in as few as 12 to 100 generations. Genomic DNA sequencing revealed an amplification of the citT and dctA loci and DNA rearrangements to capture a promoter to express CitT, aerobically. These are members of the same class of mutations identified by the LTEE. We conclude that the rarity of the LTEE mutant was an artifact of the experimental conditions and not a unique evolutionary event. No new genetic information (novel gene function) evolved. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26833416 Richard Lenski and Citrate Hype -- Now Deflated - Michael Behe - May 12, 2016 Excerpt: ,,, for more than 25 years Lenski's lab has continuously grown a dozen lines of the bacterium E. coli in small culture flasks, letting them replicate for six or seven generations per day and then transferring a portion to fresh flasks for another round of growth. The carefully monitored cells have now gone through more than 60,000 generations, which is equivalent to over a million years for a large animal such as humans.,,, In 2008 Lenski's group reported that after more than 15 years and 30,000 generations of growth one of the E. coli cell lines suddenly developed the ability to consume citrate,,, the authors argued it might be pretty important.,,, They also remarked that,,, perhaps the mutation marked the beginning of the evolution of a brand new species.,, One scientist who thought the results were seriously overblown was Scott Minnich, professor of microbiology at the University of Idaho ,,, So Minnich's lab re-did the work under conditions he thought would be more effective. The bottom line is that they were able to repeatedly isolate the same mutants Lenski's lab did as easily as falling off a log -- within weeks, not decades.,,, Richard Lenski was not pleased.,,, In a disgraceful move, Lenski impugned Scott Minnich's character. Since he's a "fellow of the Discovery Institute" sympathetic with intelligent design,,, (Regardless of the ad hominem) With regard to citrate evolution, the Minnich lab's results have revealed E. coli to be a one-trick pony.,,, The take-home lesson is that,,, (Lenski's overinflated) hype surrounding the (implications of the citrate adaptation) has seriously misled the public and the scientific community. It's far past time that a pin was stuck in its (Lenski's citrate) balloon. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/05/richard_lenski102839.html
Thus, despite repeated empirical falsification of their claims, Darwinists still refuse to ever accept falsification of their “theory/religion” (but I repeat myself). If fact, I can almost guarantee that these falsified examples will be repeated ad naseum by Darwinists as “Zombie” examples of evolution that refuse to die (see Jonathan Wells, “Zombie Science”)bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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In other words, it turns out that instead of creating anything new, antibiotic resistant bacteria always degrades or modifies some preexisting molecular ability in order to gain antibiotic resistance. This following site provides a list of some of the degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria
List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: Table 1 excerpt: Actinonin - Loss of enzyme activity Ampicillin - SOS response halting cell division Azithromycin - Loss of a regulatory protein Chloramphenicol - Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein Ciprofloxacin - Loss of a porin or loss of a regulatory protein Erythromycin - Reduced affinity to 23S rRNA or loss of a regulatory protein Fluoroquinolones - Loss of affinity to gyrase Imioenem - Reduced formation of a porin Kanamycin - Reduced formation of a transport protein Nalidixic Acid - Loss or inactivation of a regulatory protein Rifampin - Loss of affinity to RNA polymerase Streptomycin - Reduced affinity to 16S rRNA or reduction of transport activity Tetracycline - Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein Zittermicin A - Loss of proton motive force http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp
In 2016, a video was made of bacteria rapidly adapting to higher and higher doses of antibiotics and they claimed to have captured 'evolution in action'
Stunning Videos of Evolution in Action - Sept. 8, 2016 The MEGA-plate allows scientists to watch bacteria adapting to antibiotics before their eyes. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/09/stunning-videos-of-evolution-in-action/499136/
Evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne went so far as to claim that the video was a creationist's nightmare
The creationist’s nightmare: evolution in action - Jerry Coyne - Sept. 9 2016 Excerpt: Over at the Atlantic, Ed Yong shows and describes some stunning videos of “evolution in action”: in this case bacteria evolving resistance to antibiotics. It’s a clever way to visualize the accumulation of mutations over time as bacteria evolve to survive increasingly large doses of antibiotics,, https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/evolution-in-action/
Yet, the fact of the matter is that no new information was generated in the rapid adaptations. Moreover, Michael Behe noted that the “Antibiotic-resistant bacteria demonstrate evolution by breaking stuff,, what we have here is devolution, not evolution, the opposite of what needs to be explained”
Antibiotic-Resistant Bacteria May Be a Health Nightmare, but Not an Evolutionary One - September 9, 2016 Excerpt: If anything gives us nightmares, it’s not this.,,, Why? Because no newly evolved complex information has been demonstrated. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/09/antibiotic-resi/ Michael Behe: Is That MEGA-Plate Antibiotic Resistance Video Evidence for Evolution, or Devolution? - September 13, 2016 (with podcast) Excerpt: Antibiotic-resistant bacteria demonstrate evolution by breaking stuff — not by building it and certainly not by creating complex new biological information. On the contrary, information is lost. In other words, says Behe, what we have here is devolution, not evolution, the opposite of what needs to be explained by Darwinian theory. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/09/michael_behe_is/
Moreover, the fact that antibiotic resistance was being gained so rapidly in the video, as well as being gained rapidly in nature,,
A Tale of Two Falsifications of Evolution - September 2011 Excerpt: “Scientists were surprised at how fast bacteria developed resistance to the miracle antibiotic drugs when they were developed less than a century ago. Now scientists at McMaster University have found that resistance has been around for at least 30,000 years.” http://crev.info/content/110904-a_tale_of_two_falsifications_of_evolution Antibiotic resistance is ancient - September 2011 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v477/n7365/full/nature10388.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20110922
,,, should have been a solid clue for Darwinists that adaptations to antibiotics are not being generated by random Darwinian processes as they assume they are, but that antibiotic resistance is already 'programmed' into bacteria. And indeed, contrary to Darwinian thought, it is now found that antibiotic resistance, instead of being an ability that is new for bacteria, is an ability that is ancient. An ability that bacteria have had all along. In fact, one researcher, who found antibiotic resistance in four million year old bacteria, remarked 'that antibiotic resistance is hard-wired into bacteria and could be billions of years old.'
(Ancient) Cave bacteria resistant to antibiotics - April 2012 Excerpt: Antibiotic-resistant bacteria cut off from the outside world for more than four million years have been found in a deep cave. The discovery is surprising because drug resistance is widely believed to be the result of too much treatment.,,, “Our study shows that antibiotic resistance is hard-wired into bacteria. It could be billions of years old, but we have only been trying to understand it for the last 70 years,” said Dr Gerry Wright, from McMaster University in Canada, who has analysed the microbes. http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/cave-bacteria-resistant-to-antibiotics-1-2229183# Scientists unlock a 'microbial Pompeii' - February 23, 2014 Excerpt: "...The researchers discovered that the ancient human oral microbiome already contained the basic genetic machinery for antibiotic resistance more than eight centuries before the invention of the first therapeutic antibiotics in the 1940s..." http://phys.org/news/2014-02-scientists-microbial-pompeii.html
bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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R J Sawyer falsely claims that ,,,
"the literature has plenty of examples of random mutation and selection resulting in new traits being fixed in a population. Nylonase, chloroquine resistance, antibiotic resistance, aerobic citrate metabolism"
And yet, all these examples he cited are actually examples that prove the inherent dishonesty of Darwinists in dealing forthrightly with the evidence, in that these examples falsify Darwinian claims and yet Darwinists refuse to accept those empirical falsifications of their theory and/or religion (but I repeat myself)..,, As to Nylonase, Nylonase is not a ‘new trait’ but is actually adaptation of a preexisting ability.
The Nylonase Story: When Imagination and Facts Collide - Ann Gauger - May 4, 2017 Excerpt: Thus, EII? and EII did not have frameshifted new folds. They had pre-existing folds with activity characteristic of their fold type. There was no brand-new protein. No novel protein fold had emerged. And no frameshift mutation was required to produce nylonase.,,, Tests revealed that both the EII and EII? enzymes have carboxylesterase and nylonase activity. They can hydrolyze both substrates. In fact it is possible both had carboxylesterase activity and a low level of nylonase activity from the beginning, even before the appearance of nylon. https://www.evolutionnews.org/2017/05/the-nylonase-story-when-imagination-and-facts-collide/
Moreover, random mutations were not responsible for the Nylonase adaptation. ‘Directed’ mutations were responsible for it.
Debate Debrief: The Two-Prong Canard Demonstrated Within 24 Hours - The Curious Case of Nylonase – March 20, 2016 - Cornelius Hunter Excerpt: Such adaptation to nylon manufacture byproducts has been repeated in laboratory experiments. In a matter of months bacteria acquire the ability to digest the unforeseen chemical. Researchers speculate that mechanisms responding to environmental stress are involved in inducing adaptive mutations. That is not evolution. In fact it refutes evolution. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2016/03/debate-debrief-two-prong-canard.html
Chloroquine resistance is particularly disingenuous for a Darwinist to use. Chloroquine resistance, (along with HIV), is one of the two main evidences that Dr Michael Behe used to establish the “Edge of Evolution”. Dr. Behe states in hes book “The Edge of Evolution” on page 135:
"Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would actually explain the generation of the complex molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite."
On page 146 Dr. Behe goes on to state:,,,
"The immediate, most important implication is that complexes with more than two different binding sites-ones that require three or more proteins-are beyond the edge of evolution, past what is biologically reasonable to expect Darwinian evolution to have accomplished in all of life in all of the billion-year history of the world. The reasoning is straightforward. The odds of getting two independent things right are the multiple of the odds of getting each right by itself. So, other things being equal, the likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability for getting one: a double CCC, 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the world in the last 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." - Michael Behe - The Edge of Evolution - page 146
In 2014 Dr. Behe was empirically vindicated on his inference from chloroquine resistance
A Key Inference of The Edge of Evolution Has Now Been Experimentally Confirmed - Michael Behe - July 14, 2014 (first of a three part essay) Excerpt: However, at the time the book's chief, concrete example,,, was an inference, not yet an experimentally confirmed fact.,, the deduction hadn't yet been nailed down in the lab. Now it has, thanks to Summers et al. 2014. It took them years to get their results because they had to painstakingly develop a suitable test system where the malarial protein could be both effectively deployed and closely monitored for its relevant activity,,, Using clever experimental techniques they artificially mutated the protein in all the ways that nature has, plus in ways that produced previously unseen intermediates. One of their conclusions is that a minimum of two specific mutations are indeed required for the protein to be able to transport chloroquine.,,, The need for multiple mutations neatly accounts for why the development of spontaneous resistance to chloroquine is an event of extremely low probability -- approximately one in a hundred billion billion (1 in 10^20) malarial cell replications -- as the distinguished Oxford University malariologist Nicholas White deduced years ago. The bottom line is that the need for an organism to acquire multiple mutations in some situations before a relevant selectable function appears is now an established experimental fact. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/a_key_inference087761.html
Moreover, Chloroquine Resistance, as hard as it is for Darwinian processes to account for, is not even a gain in functional complexity for the malaria parasite in the first place but is a loss of functional complexity for the parasite.
Metabolic QTL Analysis Links Chloroquine Resistance in Plasmodium falciparum to Impaired Hemoglobin Catabolism - January, 2014 Summary: Chloroquine was formerly a front line drug in the treatment of malaria. However, drug resistant strains of the malaria parasite have made this drug ineffective in many malaria endemic regions. Surprisingly, the discontinuation of chloroquine therapy has led to the reappearance of drug-sensitive parasites. In this study, we use metabolite quantitative trait locus analysis, parasite genetics, and peptidomics to demonstrate that chloroquine resistance is inherently linked to a defect in the parasite's ability to digest hemoglobin, which is an essential metabolic activity for malaria parasites. This metabolic impairment makes it harder for the drug-resistant parasites to reproduce than genetically-equivalent drug-sensitive parasites, and thus favors selection for drug-sensitive lines when parasites are in direct competition. Given these results, we attribute the re-emergence of chloroquine sensitive parasites in the wild to more efficient hemoglobin digestion. http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004085
As to Antibiotic resistance: Many times Darwinists will claim that minor adaptations in bacteria, such as antibiotic resistance, are proof that Darwinian evolution is true. Yet, that simply is not the case. In fact, when examined in detail, we find that antibiotic resistance provides evidence against Darwinian claims. The following video, at the 2:15 minute mark, shows that there is always a 'fitness cost' associated with bacteria gaining antibiotic resistance.
Investigating Evolution: Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Peboq0AqA
In the following article, Casey Luskin states, '(an antibiotic resistant bacterium) reproduces slower than it did before it was changed. This effect is widely recognized, and is called the fitness cost of antibiotic resistance. It is the existence of these costs and other examples of the limits of evolution that call into question the neo-Darwinian story of macroevolution.'
Thank Goodness the NCSE Is Wrong: Fitness Costs Are Important to Evolutionary Microbiology - Casey Luskin - March 8, 2010 Excerpt: it (an antibiotic resistant bacterium) reproduces slower than it did before it was changed. This effect is widely recognized, and is called the fitness cost of antibiotic resistance. It is the existence of these costs and other examples of the limits of evolution that call into question the neo-Darwinian story of macroevolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/thank_goodness_the_ncse_is_wro.html Helping an Internet Debater Defend Intelligent Design - Casey Luskin - May 3, 2014 Excerpt: ,,, antibiotic resistant bacteria tend to "revert" to their prior forms after the antibacterial drug is removed. This is due to a "fitness cost," which suggests that mutations that allow antibiotic resistance are breaking down the normal, efficient operations of a bacterial cell, and are less "advantageous. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/helping_an_inte085171.html
bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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R J Sawyer:
Natural selection works at the population level.
Nonsense. Natural selection pertains to the individuals in the population.
Nylonase, chloroquine resistance, antibiotic resistance, aerobic citrate metabolism… For many of these we know the specific mutations that resulted in these new traits.
Except for the fact that no one has any idea if those changes were chance events or not. Look, it is clear that you are clueless and refuse to understand what is being debated.ET
September 9, 2018
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bornagain77 @ 6
A few more notes: Contrary to the false revisionist history from atheists of ‘enlightenment’ reasoning saving us from the ‘dark ages’ Christianity,,,
Christians – Not the Enlightenment – Invented Modern Science – Chuck Colson – Oct. 2016 Excerpt: Rodney Stark’s,,, book, “For the Glory of God,,,, In Stark’s words, “Christian theology was necessary for the rise of science.” Science only happened in areas whose worldview was shaped by Christianity, that is, Europe. Many civilizations had alchemy; only Europe developed chemistry. Likewise, astrology was practiced everywhere, but only in Europe did it become astronomy. That’s because Christianity depicted God as a “rational, responsive, dependable, and omnipotent being” who created a universe with a “rational, lawful, stable” structure. These beliefs uniquely led to “faith in the possibility of science.”
And that's Christianity indulging in a little revisionism of its own. As we all know, Richard Dawkins wrote, with some justification, that God as depicted in the Old Testament was, "...arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Contemporary Christians may desire and believe in a God who is "rational, responsive, dependable" but that means revising the OT image. In my youth I read the Bible and I don't recall God ever offering a detailed rationale for any of His decisions. It was more a case of Him saying "Jump!" and good Christians were not allowed to ask "Why?", only "How high?".Seversky
September 9, 2018
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BA77
R J Sawyer has no empirical evidence of the Darwinian mechanism of random mutation and natural selection producing “new traits” that were not already existent in the parent species.
Natural selection works at the population level. And the literature has plenty of examples of random mutation and selection resulting in new traits being fixed in a population. Nylonase, chloroquine resistance, antibiotic resistance, aerobic citrate metabolism... For many of these we know the specific mutations that resulted in these new traits.
It is not so much that Darwinism is not falsifiable as it is that Darwinists refuse to ever accept falsification of their theory.
So which is it? Evolution is not falsifiable, as you said previously, or is it falsifiable, as you are now saying?R J Sawyer
September 9, 2018
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Darwin, in his unscientific way, said we had to prove a negative to falsify his concept which he never even tested. ID is not anti-evolution, RJ. So perhaps you should educate yourselfET
September 9, 2018
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R J Sawyer is misleading people. There are 196 countries and only 1 has the establishment clause.ET
September 9, 2018
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R J Sawyer has no empirical evidence of the Darwinian mechanism of random mutation and natural selection producing "new traits" that were not already existent in the parent species.
Darwin vs. Microbes - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntxc4X9Zt-I
In fact, both natural selection and random mutations have been all but effectively falsified.
(Refutation of) Natural Selection and Randomness vs. Intelligent Design; https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/if-you-are-going-to-reject-something-at-least-take-the-time-to-understand-what-you-are-rejecting/#comment-661664
Yet, despite the falsification by math and empirical evidence of natural selection and random mutation, Darwinists still refuse to accept falsification of their theory. In fact, Darwin's very own criteria for falsification, that he himself laid out, has now been empirically met.
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rzw0JkuKuQ
It is not so much that Darwinism is not falsifiable as it is that Darwinists refuse to ever accept falsification of their theory. Darwinism, contrary to what the current UD troll R J Sawyer so desperately wants to believe, is a pseudoscience, not a testable/falsifiable science (at least how Darwinists treat it).bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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BA77
He is wrong. ID is falsifiable, Darwinism is not.
When Darwin proposed his theory it could have been falsified if it was shown that new traits were not heritable. If there was no source for new variation. Once DNA was discovered it could still have been falsified if there were no mechanisms for increasing variation. Thankfully, there are mutations, inversions, insertions, HGT, meiosis, etc. It could be falsified if it was shown that new traits could not be fixed in a population by differential reproduction. And none of that talks about the finding of a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian.R J Sawyer
September 9, 2018
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R J Sawyer thinks Darwinism qualifies as a science. He is wrong. ID is falsifiable, Darwinism is not. Thus, according to the main criteria of falsification (Popper) for determining whether something is a science or not, ID is a science whereas Darwinism is not. (see bottom of post 6)
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rzw0JkuKuQ
Besides falsification, Darwinian Evolution simply fails to qualify as a science by any reasonable measure of science one might wish to invoke
“There are five standard tests for a scientific hypothesis. Has anyone observed the phenomenon — in this case, Evolution — as it occurred and recorded it? Could other scientists replicate it? Could any of them come up with a set of facts that, if true, would contradict the theory (Karl Popper’s “falsifiability” tests)? Could scientists make predictions based on it? Did it illuminate hitherto unknown or baffling areas of science? In the case of Evolution… well… no… no… no… no… and no.” – Tom Wolfe – The Kingdom of Speech – page 17 Darwinian Evolution Fails the Five Standard Tests of a Scientific Hypothesis – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7f_fyoPybw
In fact, Darwinian evolution is more properly classified as a unfalsifiable pseudoscience whose main substantiating evidence turns out to be based on unrestrained imagination rather than on any compelling empirical evidence.
Excerpt:,,, more often than not, in Darwinian evolution unrestrained imagination has somehow, in the minds of Darwinists, become the confirming empirical evidence for the theory. As Stephen Jay Gould himself noted, “When evolutionists study individual adaptations, when they try to explain form and behaviour by reconstructing history and assessing current utility, they also tell just so stories – and the agent is natural selection. Virtuosity in invention replaces testability as the criterion for acceptance. Sociobiology: The Art of Story Telling – Stephen Jay Gould – 1978 – New Scientist Excerpt: Rudyard Kipling asked how the leopard got its spots, the rhino its wrinkled skin. He called his answers “Just So stories”. When evolutionists study individual adaptations, when they try to explain form and behaviour by reconstructing history and assessing current utility, they also tell just so stories – and the agent is natural selection. Virtuosity in invention replaces testability as the criterion for acceptance. https://books.google.com/books?id=tRj7EyRFVqYC&pg=PA530 Mull over Gould’s statement for a few seconds “Virtuosity in invention replaces testability as the criterion for acceptance.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolutionary-psychology-explains-why-men-pay-on-the-first-date-and-dont/#comment-664433 Darwinian Evolution: A Pseudoscience based on Unrestrained Imagination and Bad Liberal Theology – video https://youtu.be/KeDi6gUMQJQ
bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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@Granville Sewell #11 You were quite serious about someone else sacrificing their career for your cause? How nice of you.Deputy Dog
September 9, 2018
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ET, "What students need to do is ask their teachers how to test the claim that ATP synthase evolved by means of natural selection and drift, or any other blind and mindless process. The teacher will choke and realize they are teaching BS" That's a good idea.PaoloV
September 9, 2018
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bornagain77, very informative comments as usual. Thanks.PaoloV
September 9, 2018
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BA77
Seversky implies that the constitution gives atheists the unalienable right to teach their unsubstantiated pseusoscientific Darwinian creation myth in the public schools because to allow otherwise, i.e. to allow the possibility that the unfathomable complexity we see in life might have been intelligently designed, is to teach religion.
It may be true that a significant majority of evolution’s proponents are atheists, but you can’t extrapolate from that fact to conclude that evolution is an atheist creation myth. If this were true, then we must also conclude that ID with regard to biology is a Christian creation myth.R J Sawyer
September 9, 2018
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ET
You want to know the most ignorant thing about the law we are discussing? Other countries are free to discuss and promote ID in their science classrooms which put us even further behind the rest of the world.
ET is correct. Saudi, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, Mauritania and the Vatican are all free to teach their versions of ID. Personally, I wouldn’t look to any of these countries as acceptable role models.R J Sawyer
September 9, 2018
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Seversky implies that the constitution gives atheists the unalienable right to teach their unsubstantiated pseusoscientific Darwinian creation myth in the public schools because to allow otherwise, i.e. to allow the possibility that the unfathomable complexity we see in life might have been intelligently designed, is to teach religion. Seversky is, as usual, wrong in his belief. For purposes of "religion" "The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions"
Atheism and the Law - Matt Dillahunty Excerpt: "... whether atheism is a 'religion' for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture." "Without venturing too far into the realm of the philosophical, we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of 'ultimate concern' that for her occupy a 'place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons,' those beliefs represent her religion." "We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion. See Reed v. Great Lakes Cos., 330 F.3d 931, 934 (7th Cir. 2003) ('If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.')" "The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions" http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=742
Thus, IMHO, the most effective tactic for the next teacher or school being sued by Atheists over the Intelligent Design issue is to point out that Atheism is a religion in and of itself. And that Darwinian evolution, more or less, directly implies teaching a religion, i.e. teaching atheism, to students.
Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. ~ William Provine "Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist" - Richard Dawkins - 1986 Evolution Is Religion--Not Science Excerpt: Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality,,, Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today. Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse - Prominent Atheistic Philosopher https://uncommondescent.com/education/a-friend-writes-to-ask-why-he-cant-have-an-event-on-a-local-campus-because/ A Neurosurgeon, Not A Darwinist - Michael Egnor Excerpt: The fight against the design inference in biology is motivated by fundamentalist atheism. Darwinists detest intelligent design theory because it is compatible with belief in God. But the evidence is unassailable. The most reasonable scientific explanation for functional biological complexity–the genetic code and the intricate nanotechnology inside living cells–is that they were designed by intelligent agency. There is no scientific evidence that unintelligent processes can create substantial new biological structures and function. There is no unintelligent process known to science that can generate codes and machines. I still consider religious explanations for biology to be unscientific at best, dogma at worst. But I understand now that Darwinism itself is a religious creed that masquerades as science. Darwin’s theory of biological origins is atheism’s creation myth, and atheists defend their dogma with religious fervor. - Michael Egnor is a professor and vice chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/06/neurosurgeon-intelligent-design-opinions-darwin09_0205_michael_egnor.html Atheism,,, is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith.  - David Bentley Hart God, Gods, and Fairies by David Bentley Hart - June 2013 Excerpt: All of which is to say (to return to where I began) that it is absurd to think that one can profess atheism in any meaningful way without thereby assenting to an entire philosophy of being, however inchoate one’s sense of it may be. The philosophical naturalist’s view of reality is not one that merely fails to find some particular object within the world that the theist imagines can be descried there; it is a very particular representation of the nature of things, entailing a vast range of purely metaphysical commitments. Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this. It is the embrace of an infinite paradox: the universe understood as an “absolute contingency.” It may not amount to a metaphysics in the fullest sense, since strictly speaking it possesses no rational content—it is, after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic—but it is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith. https://www.firstthings.com/article/2013/06/god-gods-and-fairies
bornagain77
September 9, 2018
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I once suggested, here: https://evolutionnews.org/2015/06/how_to_teach_th/ that some HS biology teacher might share the contents of this article with their students, and only reveal the source at their disciplinary hearing. It might be too late by then to save their job, but if they were fired just for sharing a N.Y.Times News Service account of a Chicago Field Museum meeting, that might help people understand how badly needed are the academic freedom laws Discovery Institute is promoting around the country. As far as I know, no one ever took me up on the idea, but I was quite serious.Granville Sewell
September 9, 2018
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Seversky:
What would be the point in declaring that all US citizens have certain “unalienable” rights if you were going to allow individual states to set them aside whenever they chose?
Hey chicken little, what rights are being set aside? Please be specific or shut upET
September 8, 2018
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vmahuna @ 4
The Bill of Rights are RESTRICTIONS on the FEDERAL government by the individual SOVEREIGN States. And so what is forbidden is the establishment of a single NATIONAL religion by the government in Washington. (E.g., The Church of England) This restriction does NOT apply (or DID NOT apply) to the individual Sovereign States, who always had the Right to establish a government-supported religion WITHIN THEIR STATE. And several States did that
What would be the point in declaring that all US citizens have certain "unalienable" rights if you were going to allow individual states to set them aside whenever they chose? The same arguments against the Federal government establishing a state church must also apply to the individual states. Allowing them to establish state churches would inevitably disadvantage any citizen of that state who was not a member of that church and violate his or her right to free exercise of their faith. So it is hardly surprising that we find that the FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT has been the basis for extending the restraints on Federal government powers to those of state governments.Seversky
September 8, 2018
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Seversky needs a history lesson and a dose of reality: What is Intelligent Design?: Design theory—also called design or the design argument—is the view that nature shows tangible signs of having been designed by a preexisting intelligence. It has been around, in one form or another, since the time of ancient Greece. Well before Paley and Creationism. "The Design Revolution", page 25, Dembski writes:
Intelligent Design has theological implications, but it is not a theological enterprise. Theology does not own intelligent design. Intelligent design is not a evangelical Christian thing, or a generally Christian thing or even a generally theistic thing. Anyone willing to set aside naturalistic prejudices and consider the possibility of evidence for intelligence in the natural world is a friend of intelligent design.
He goes on to say:
Intelligent design requires neither a meddling God nor a meddled world. For that matter, it doesn't even require there be a God.
Willfully ignorant evos always try to rewrite history and have a severe aversion to the facts.ET
September 8, 2018
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mike1962 @ 2
ID is not a religious idea. It’s compatible with religion, and so is Darwinism. The way the U.S. Supreme court is shaping up, there may be a better outcome to this silly problem.
It has not been difficult to trace the line of descent from, say, William Paley through creationism and creation science to Intelligent Design. And the published works of a founding father of ID, Philip Johnson, and one of its leading lights, William Dembski have made the religious purposes of the movement quite clear.Seversky
September 8, 2018
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