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Why Dawkins won’t debate Craig: “Look what happened to Atkins and Harris”

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In “Richard Dawkins’s Delicacy” (The Best Schools, October 21, 2011), James Barham comments on Dawkins’ refusal to debate William Lane Craig, and what it may portend:

Now, it is understandable that Dawkins should disdain to debate someone so far below his own celebrity star-power as Professor Craig. On the other hand, by that criterion, he really ought to limit himself to appearing with other bona fide media stars, like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert (not that they would find much to disagree about).

If, however, Dawkins’s principal concern were the truth, as opposed to protecting his celebrity status, then he ought to jump at the chance to debate Craig. If modern science really has put the question of the existence of God to rest once and for all, then what better forum to get this across to the public than Oxford’s venerable Sheldonian Theatre next Tuesday? It really is a pity, because for many of us interested in the question of the existence of God, such a match-up would have the quality of a real clash of the titans.

Dawkins claimed Craig endorses genocide because of something he said about the Book of Deuteronomy (see here).

Now, I do not mean to defend the book of Deuteronomy, or even to defend Professor Craig’s defense of that recalcitrant book. But I do think it is a little rich that Dawkins should seize on Craig’s more or less unexceptionable exercise in Christian apologetics as a means of wriggling out of what had clearly become for him a very disagreeable situation.

I think the real reason for Dawkins’s refusal to debate Craig is plain enough to see. If you have any doubt on this point, I suggest you take a look at a couple of video clips from recent debates between Craig and the atheist apologists Peter Atkins (a former Oxford Professor of Chemistry) and Sam Harris.

Which he provides. And what happened to Peter Atkins and Sam Harris was grim.

Prediction: As long as Dawkins has his toff media and government TV in hand, he doesn’t need to debate anyone.

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Comments
"But it still leaves the issue of how a good God could command genocide."
Elizabeth, by a good God, do you mean an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, creator of time and space and the humans that inhabit it? Are you referring here to the same God who is responsible for His creation, and plays an active role in their development? Is this the same God who can see the end of everything given any beginning, given any contingency? Are you referring to the same God who suffered death so that we all might live? I'm unclear about the source of your definition for "good." From whom do you acquire it? Does your definition of good have anything to say regarding atrocities committed against the unborn?material.infantacy
October 25, 2011
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Yet we inflict death and suffering on others- other animals and humans too.Joseph
October 25, 2011
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GinoB:
Last time I looked the snowball Earth hypothesis was put forth as a possible explanation for low latitude glacial deposits.
ASSUMED glacial deposits. Water could have done it also.
So you think the Noah’s Global Flood actually happened at least three times, the most recent being over 750 million years ago, and lasted for 50-80 million years?
Nope. If you knew anything about the Creation model you would know those dates are all wrong.Joseph
October 25, 2011
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Joseph
As I said and you keep ignoring the evidence for a global flood is the same as the evidence for a snowball earth.
Well, that's certainly one of the more...er...interesting Biblical Creationist claims I've heard. Last time I looked the snowball Earth hypothesis was put forth as a possible explanation for low latitude glacial deposits. So you think the Noah's Global Flood actually happened at least three times, the most recent being over 750 million years ago, and lasted for 50-80 million years? That must have been one finely built and heavily stocked Ark!GinoB
October 25, 2011
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Eugene - do you mean Why don’t people do just the same to improve our own race? Clearly we are physically capable of doing it. Why don't we? Because mostly we don't like inflicting death and suffering on others.markf
October 25, 2011
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Yeah and I am sure the animals we eat want to live also. If the ToE is true then there really isn't difference between killing one animal and another...Joseph
October 25, 2011
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As I said and you keep ignoring the evidence for a global flood is the same as the evidence for a snowball earth. As for your other question, well I answered that also: Also if justice is good and if justice was served by the genocides, then God is also good.Joseph
October 25, 2011
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I simply do not understand your question, Eugene. The reason we don't kill the "genetically ill" is because, like most of us, they want to live. I think you've misunderstood "the selfish gene" concept. You also seem to be confusing scientific theories with moral precepts.Elizabeth Liddle
October 25, 2011
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Unfortunately no one knows what the evidence of such an event would look like.
Are you saying TINAE for a global flood? If so, for once, I agree with you :)Elizabeth Liddle
October 25, 2011
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And BTW I would say that the evidence for the genocide of the Canaanites and Midianites is the same as that for the global flood- all from the Bible.
In which case, there seems little reason to believe any of it, fortunately. But it still leaves the issue of how a good God could command genocide. I'll repeat my question yet again, in the hope that you might eventually get round to addressing it: Does this mean that your God isn’t good, that sometimes genocide is good, or that your good God did not, in fact, order the genocide of the Canaanites and Midianites?Elizabeth Liddle
October 25, 2011
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Evolutionists, 1. take an animal and a human and find five differences. 2. animals eat each other and by doing so help their ecosystems and in particular their respective races (or should I say selfish genes?) to become better adapted. The question is: Why can't people do just the same to improve our own race? Why can't humans e.g. kill the genetically ill?Eugene S
October 25, 2011
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And BTW I would say that the evidence for the genocide of the Canaanites and Midianites is the same as that for the global flood- all from the Bible.Joseph
October 25, 2011
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Elizabeth:
Fortunately we know from good scientific evidence that no such event occurred.
Unfortunately no one knows what the evidence of such an event would look like. And there is evidence for a snowball earth and that is the same evidence a global flood would leave. Also if justice is good and if justice was served by the genocides, then God is also good.Joseph
October 25, 2011
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Umm God ordered the genocide of the entire human race but then relented and let Noah, and his family live.
Yes, indeed, Joseph. It's one of the many reasons why a literal Creationist reading of the bible is so absurd. Fortunately we know from good scientific evidence that no such event occurred.
So I doubt any christian would have any issues with God wanting to wipe out one or a few small populations.
Well, most Christians that I know of do. And most Christians here, including Craig, seem to have "issues" with it, to their credit. So I repeat my question: Does this mean that your God isn’t good, that sometimes genocide is good, or that your good God did not, in fact, order the genocide of the Canaanites and Midianites? I suggest that the last answer is the only sensible one.Elizabeth Liddle
October 24, 2011
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I've looked below and just seen more of the same. Your repeated refusal to answer the question just highlights your own guilt. Either answer the question or withdraw the accusation.DrBot
October 24, 2011
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Dr BOT, kindly look below, and see what I have been addressing. I have said this enough times already that it should get through.kairosfocus
October 24, 2011
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EL, why focus on "genocide?" As Joseph suggests, according to scripture God wiped out the entire human race, save eight. Does the ethnic diversity there provide some sort of comfort that the Canaanite slaughter does not? Are you sure you don't want to label it a "hate crime" and then if we're all OK with God committing "hate crimes?" Everyone dies. This is the real tragedy. That God chooses to judge at specific points in history should not really stand out over the scriptural fact that HE HAS CURSED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE TO DEATH, save those He has chosen to spare. At least admit that if the Canaanite incident was absent from the pages of scripture, your condemnation of the Christian God would be no less vehement.material.infantacy
October 24, 2011
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Umm God ordered the genocide of the entire human race but then relented and let Noah, and his family live. So I doubt any christian would have any issues with God wanting to wipe out one or a few small populations.Joseph
October 24, 2011
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Look guys, this isn't very difficult: Your God is supposed to be good, right? But apparently this same God ordered the genocide of the Canaanites and the Midianites? Does this mean that your God isn't good, that sometimes genocide is good, or that your good God did not, in fact, order the genocide of the Canaanites and Midianites?Elizabeth Liddle
October 24, 2011
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either answer the question or withdraw the accusation.DrBot
October 24, 2011
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Kindly look below to see the actual issue I am addressing.kairosfocus
October 24, 2011
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KF, please stop with the distractions and answer the question: can you point me to a specific example of someone accusing all Christendom of advocating genocide? If not then explain why this:
“you Christians support genocide” false — and known false — accusation that now seems to be in favour for the New Atheists
is anything more than a false — and known false — accusation.DrBot
October 24, 2011
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EL IF you like to refrase your objection to read: What is logical about the proposition that a ["good god of the humanists"] ordered genocide? THEN I have to agree this is just a silly notion. BUT If you stop trying to sidestep your actual rational responsibility then you would have seen God for who He is. One objective attribute about God that might help is omnipotence. Then you can consider his omniscient nature. When you rationally digest these attributes you would find that there is sufficient reason to belief that all God's acts are in fact perfect. (Including the fact that humans can defy his will - for them/us) This unwillingness to engage God on his terms will always fall short of any rational integrity because you will always try to subdue his character to something that is in fact NOT God. mullerpr
October 24, 2011
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Dr Liddle: That should be a clue that the relevant assertions being raised by your side are rhetorical distortions, potentially very destructive ones. Kindly look above in this thread to see an example of what is going on. And, on the underlying question, I again invite you to read here on. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 24, 2011
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Again, kindly look just below to see the real problem, as opposed to the strawman you have set up.kairosfocus
October 24, 2011
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What is logical about the proposition that a good God ordered genocide?Elizabeth Liddle
October 24, 2011
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BA77 Thanks. The video is important, though a bit saddening. It is revealing on the balance of the issues and talking points new/gnu atheists like to raise, on the merits, as well as on the sort of snide rhetoric -- here, audience tampering (and presumably judge tampering too) -- that is too often being used by atheism advocates to belittle and demean the other side rather than deal with the issue on its merits. Let's put the matter straight: believing in God is not delusional, it is a reasonable and serious worldview option. Moreover, God-followers -- as a body (you can always find loonies on the fringes of ANY large scale movement) -- are not properly to be equated with child abusers, terrorists or genocidal maniacs like the Nazis. To say (or worse, snidely and cleverly suggest . . . as in, you are ignorant, stupid, insane and/or wicked -- and you're too nicey-nicey stupid to see though my subtext . . . ) such things in the teeth of easily accessible and massive evidence to the contrary is willfully and viciously misleading, as well as just plain irresponsible, bigoted and in at least some cases, outright hostile without good reason and even hateful. Those who resort to such slanders show their blatant moral bankruptcy and utter want of a sound case on the merits. A hint of -- yup, pardon, but there is a lack of contact with common-sense reality here -- delusion-ality may also be relevant in certain cases. That's the charitable interpretation. (Let us never forget how blinding out of control rage is.) At minimum, to make such patently false accusations, one has to be severely misled about any number of subjects, starting with the real history of our civilisation and easily researched or familiar things like say Mr Wilberforce's career, or the impact of John Wesley or George Whitefield, or the life of Mother Teresa of India, or that of Pope John Paul II. Not to mention the life stories of millions who have met God in the face of the risen Christ and have been positively transformed thereby, testimonies easily accessible in any town and all over the Internet. What escapes me is how Mr Dawkins, having published this sort of thing for 20 years, and said it repeatedly in public, is celebrated rather than scorned. That is saying something about the current state of our civilisation's public mindset, and it ain't pretty. Those who have been busily blaming the victims or have been piling on have some fairly serious explaining to do. GEM of TKI PS: Do you see why --
per the apostle James: "Jas 3:5 . . . the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." --
. . . I have taken pretty serious umbrage at the sort of snide, vicious insinuation laced rhetoric that has been cropping up here at UD over the past several days? (Do people realise that by making connexions and suggestions through terms like "genocide" they are accusing others by implications of being Nazis or Nazi-like? On the evidence in hand, would you be willing to call the people you have been accusing or insinuating by suggestion about, Nazi's to their faces? Do you not see why people will take this sort of thing as slander and vicious lying? [And, yes, I know I am a lot more direct than most Christians will be; I know too much history to be church mousy in the teeth of vicious propaganda that is misleading people and stirring up hate, for I know where this sort of bigotry too often has ended, as do the ghosts of 100 million victims of totalitarian, atheistical and neopagan regimes over the past 100 years. Please, listen to their whispers. Before it is too late. Bloodily too late.] Please, please, please, let us think again, soberly.)kairosfocus
October 23, 2011
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I take it from your predictable response that you cannot actually give me any of the examples I asked for! So, can you point me to a specific example of someone accusing all Christendom of advocating genocide?
a snide insinuation is even worse than an outright accusation
?? isn't this just another example of your rhetorical methodology - insinuation is often in the eye of the beholder. There was, as far as I can see, no actual accusation, so instead you decided that there was an insinuation - well I saw no insinuation either so from my perspective it looks like it exists in your mind only.
Have you ever been in the position of being asked, have you stopped beating your wife?
Metaphorically, yes - it happens quite a lot to people like me on this website.DrBot
October 23, 2011
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Wonderful video bornagain77...thanks for posting it!Blue_Savannah
October 23, 2011
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F/N: Please, look carefully at your opening words in above: I have see several people appear to support genocide on this thread . . . Think about what it is like to have that sort of accusation cast in your teeth, and backed up by insinuations that, like the Nazis, Christians are backing a lebensraum-type argument. (Have you read the linked yet? Do so now, you are plainly projecting some serious distortions. Take time to focus on especially the citation from Jer 18, where for defiant unrighteousness, Israel is on the verge of defeat, destruction and exile at the hands of pagan armies used as God's instrument of judgement. As Moshe warned in Deut 8:17 - 20.) Do you see how poisonous and distorted your remarks are? Please, think again.kairosfocus
October 23, 2011
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