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Darwinian Debating Device #20: The “Whataboutism” Tactic

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Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent’s position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.  How did CR employ it here?  Let’s examine it step-by-step.

For example, the vignette Becky’s Lesson is set in an alternate history in which the Nazis won World War II, conquered the world, and completed their Final Solution by completely eradicating all 13 million Jews.  In the story, the Nazis control all media and education.  They control society with an iron fist and have indoctrinated the society they control to celebrate The Final Solution as a great good, instead of an unspeakable evil.  The obvious purpose of the story is to refute the lame materialist assertion that we see all-too-many times in these pages that “morality comes from society.”  The story exposes the vacuity of this position by demonstrating that if society determines morality, the Holocaust would have been moral if the Nazis had won the war and controlled societal discourse.

A commenter who goes by “Critical Rationalist” responded to the story not by disputing its logic but by trying to change the subject.  CR does not want to talk about Europe in living memory.  He wants to talk about the Old Testament stories about the conquest of Canaan over 3,000 years.

Let us say for the sake of argument that CR is right; that the Israelite conquest of Canaan was an example of evil ethnic cleansing.  How is that a response to the point of Becky’s Lesson?  Of course it is not.

The whole point of CR’s whataboutism ploy is not to refute the logic of the story, but to change the subject.  And why is CR so desperate to change the subject?  Because he knows as well as anyone that materialists such as he have no answer to the logic of Becky’s Lesson.  And instead of admitting that basic truth, they will go to any length to avoid addressing it.

 

Comments
Dear fellow Qu, CR, RodW, and some others here seem to possessive infinite flexibility in their arguments. Nothing they say in one post that contradicts what they say in another affects them at all. This apparently is not a problem as long as these statements are in separate posts. When you consider that "In the beginning was the Word" (i.e. logos), and that all things were created through Him. one can see that while Greek gods might be subject to logic, the true Creator in very essence IS logic and truth and light. Thus, authentically revealed Divine commands are in essence no different than objective morality. Where some people get tripped up is that they assume that the Creator is a human who is trapped in time with finite knowledge as they themselves are. They also make God-like judgments from a position of ignorance. I think it's likely that the objective morality most people seem willing to accept (or to apply against the people they disapprove of) is a subset of the essence of the Creator. That any apparent discrepancies from this are far more likely due to our not being omniscient and having a time-bound perspective rather than the Creator being deficient in some way. The prophet Isaiah also quotes the Creator saying,
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
-QQuerius
March 8, 2018
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rvb8- I was responding to RodW and not to CR. Wake up and smell the coffee.
ET, if Jesus arrived tomorrow, and all your dreams of the redeemer and His second comming were fulfilled, and then He asked the faithful to butcher the rest of the world and proclaim his kingdom, would you join in the command of the Christ Risen?
I don't hold the belief that Jesus is God. And I am 100% certain that Jesus would never do such a thing. And it sounds like EM Foster is a loser. Look, loser, you can make up any retarded scheme you want. It just exposes your desperation.ET
March 8, 2018
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I have to say Barry your's and other poster's, 'moral relativism', that if God commands it, it's okay, but if man commands it, it's not, is absurd. Take this from ET@ 7; CR asks; 'Therefore the holocaust was moral if God commanded it?' ET, unbelievably; 'TRUE but no one is making that claim.' TRUE?! ET, if Jesus arrived tomorrow, and all your dreams of the redeemer and His second comming were fulfilled, and then He asked the faithful to butcher the rest of the world and proclaim his kingdom, would you join in the command of the Christ Risen? I'd like to believe I'd say, 'Your morality is evil, so evil in fact I proclaim you Lucifer and will do all in my humanist power to stop you and your fellow travellers.' You see ET, following such an immoral God that would command the genocide of the Canaanites is actually a form of moral cowardice. E.M.Forster said; 'If it ever came to a choice between betraying my country and betraying a friend, I hope to God I would have the courage to betray my country.' Apparently all the Christians here would happily join in God's command to murder their unbelieving friends; I would not, my MORAL fiber I hope, (HOPE!) would not let me down.rvb8
March 8, 2018
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This is a very good video on the subject:
Chances are... we've misunderstood the God of the Bible - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW8MbUbpOPI ,,, the Canaanites weren’t destroyed because they were Canaanites (genocide). Rather, God judged the Canaanites for their evils, like child sacrifice, which he had given them 400 years to repent from.
I particularly like this quote from the preceding video
"My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, the region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people wre killed and 3,000,000 displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalized beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Though I used to complain about the indecency of God's wrath, I came to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world's evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love." - Miroslav Volf - Croatian theologian https://books.google.com/books?id=BkwnAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA59
Here is a more detailed defense against the Atheist's Canaanite argument
GENOCIDE AND THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT - OCTOBER 4, 2016 https://crossexamined.org/genocide-god-old-testament/ In Genesis 15:13 and 16, when God promises Abraham that He will give the land of Canaan to his descendants, He informs him that it will not take place for another 400 years because their sins “do not yet warrant their destruction.” "for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+15%3A13-16&version=KJV
bornagain77
March 8, 2018
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Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. -- Romans 2:14-15 Morality seems objective in some sense - so many moral values are shared across all societies. But ... - Divine commands cannot ground objective morals -- Plato, Euthyphro - Material facts about the world (social cooperation etc.) cannot ground objective morals - Hume: we cannot derive 'ought' from 'is' Therefore, it seems our shared morality must be some sort of objective but non-physical thing - like maths or logic perhaps?Quaesitor
March 8, 2018
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"But doesn’t that then support CR’s (or RW’s) comparison to the killing of the Canaanites?" No. And again, elucidating the reason for that is not the subject of the post.Barry Arrington
March 8, 2018
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Barry
My point is that if it is even possible for your premises to lead to a self-evidently absurd conclusion (i.e. the Holocaust was moral), then your premises are flawed.
But doesn’t that then support CR’s (or RW’s) comparison to the killing of the Canaanites? I’m sure that they believe that justifying a genocide, regardless of the justification, is self-evidently absurd. Why is one moral, and the other not?Allan Keith
March 8, 2018
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CR: All we have is fallible criticism, which isn’t guaranteed to find problems in our ideas. O: And how do you justify that view? See? It’s better for you to be quiet. That has been my view of CR a long time. But speaking of giving the Devil his due, CR manages to confuse a lot of people with his incoherent pseudo-profundity tarted up as sophisticated analysis. You gotta hand it to him.Barry Arrington
March 8, 2018
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CR: I do not prefix every sentence with “This is a conjecture:” So what?
It wouldn’t help to do that CR. A self-defeating statement is false and cannot be fixed by “This is a conjecture … [self-defeating statement]”. For instance, “I always lie” is a self-defeating statement and it would not be fixed if you change it into
“This is a conjecture: I always lie”
Since a self-defeating statement is false, conjecturing what is false cannot be successful.
CR: But I have given up the quest for justification.
Then be quiet.
CR: All we have is fallible criticism, which isn’t guaranteed to find problems in our ideas.
And how do you justify that view? See? It’s better for you to be quiet.
CR: But we’ve been over this before, so this is nothing new.
We have, and I will keep explaining it to you until you get it.Origenes
March 8, 2018
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CR @ 7 If I accept for the sake of argument that you are correct, that the Canaanite and Holocaust episodes are examples of the same sort of thing, that does not refute the point I made in the Becky's Lesson story. Do you actually have a point that you would like to make?Barry Arrington
March 8, 2018
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A self-defeating statement. To point this out it should suffice to ask you: By what infallible source do you infallibly know that “we don’t have infallible access to any source, including God, that cannot lead us into error”?
I do not prefix every sentence with "This is a conjecture:" So what?.
Unless you have given up the quest for justification, that is a self-defeating statement. To point this out it should suffice to ask you: By what infallible source do you infallibly know that “we don’t have infallible access to any source, including God, that cannot lead us into error”?
But I have given up the quest for justification. All we have is fallible criticism, which isn't guaranteed to find problems in our ideas. But we've been over this before, so this is nothing new. Despite significant criticism of justificationism, you just keep making the same assumption.critical rationalist
March 8, 2018
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Allan Keith, You seem to be saying that if the society in the alternate future saw the Holocaust as moral, it would be moral. That is correct under materialist premises where morals are derived from society. My point is that if it is even possible for your premises to lead to a self-evidently absurd conclusion (i.e. the Holocaust was moral), then your premises are flawed.Barry Arrington
March 8, 2018
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CR and RodW continue to play the whataboutism game. The reason they do so is it is very successful. They have, again, changed the subject and gotten people to talk about something other than the point of the post.Barry Arrington
March 8, 2018
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The obvious purpose of the story is to refute the lame materialist assertion that we see all-too-many times in these pages that “morality comes from society.” The story exposes the vacuity of this position by demonstrating that if society determines morality, the Holocaust would have been moral if the Nazis had won the war and controlled societal discourse.
I think that the flaw in your argument is that you are judging the hypothesized alternate future where the Nazis won and eradicated all of the Jews from a modern day perspective. Of course, from our perspective the holocaust was immoral. Thus your argument that morality coming from society is vacuous. However, to support your argument that societally driven morality is vacuous, you have to look at the morality of the holocaust from the perspective of those in this alternate future, not that of modern day people. Would that society see the holocaust as moral? I would love to be able to say that they would still see it as immoral, but our societal norms have changed far too drastically over the centuries for me to confidently draw this conclusion. I hope that I am am making my point clearly. I have re-read this several times and it still seems poorly worded, but it is the best that I can do.Allan Keith
March 8, 2018
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Maybe mass slaughter of women, children, and infants is sometimes morally good, even necessary, in this fallen world. No? Also, on another note, a/mats keep telling me not to blame violent video games, movies, and music for real-life violence. They claim that said "entertainment" has no effect on human actions in real life. Does anybody know of modern research that might dispute that?Truth Will Set You Free
March 8, 2018
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CR: ... we don’t have infallible access to any source, including God, that cannot lead us into error.
A self-defeating statement. To point this out it should suffice to ask you: By what infallible source do you infallibly know that "we don’t have infallible access to any source, including God, that cannot lead us into error"?
CR: The key characters are both justifications arguing over which “final solution” they should accept.
Here is the 'justification' nonsense again. To point this out it should suffice to ask you: How do you justify your judgement that "the key characters are both justifications arguing over which “final solution” they should accept"?Origenes
March 8, 2018
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@TWSYF
Most a/mats rationalize Truman’s actions as being necessary for the greater good, but then spit vitriolic hatred toward God for ordering the Canaanite purge.
Again, I'm saying that there are no sources that cannot lead us into error. This includes Joshua and company, in the case of God, and a future US that supposedly follows Hitler. So, no, I'm not vilifying God. I'm pointing out that we don't have infallible access to any source, including God, that cannot lead us into error. The key characters are both justifications arguing over which "final solution" they should accept. Both of which, at one time or another, demand genocide. What they are not arguing about is whether they should follow authoritative sources. This they have in common. IOW, I'm criticizing the philosophical positions that both of them share equally. The question is, why didn't God just destroy all of the people on the land he promised them as opposed to sending the Israelites to do it themselves? What of the desensitizing effect of cutting down woman and children with a sword while looking them in the eyes would have on the men when interacting with their own people and even their own families. Was that for the greater good too? After all, if Yahweh was the Christian God, who supposedly made the entire universe appear out of nothing, as opposed to simply the tribal god of Israel, then it should be child's play making a few people disappear in an instant. In many cases, wars are fought because we lack the knowledge of how to argue against the philosophical position that knowledge comes from authoritative sources, which is self perpetuating because It holds specific ideas as immune from criticism.critical rationalist
March 8, 2018
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I was actually the one who first brought up the Canaanites as relevant to the discussion.
No one cares.
I dont think morals can be rules imposed on a people, anymore than you can force someone to love you.
And yet we do by the laws we make.
The example of the Canaanites is relevant because it shows that however flawed you think my definition of morality is, yours doesnt do any better.
That is your opinion and an opinion based on ignorance at that.
Believing that God is the source of morality forces you into the absurd position of having to claim that immoral atrocities described in the past were moral because God commanded them.
Well God, being God, knows better than we do.
Therefore the holocaust was moral if God wanted it
True, but no one is making that claim.ET
March 8, 2018
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I was actually the one who first brought up the Canaanites as relevant to the discussion. I'll summarize: Barry and others define morality as rules that must come from some transcendent all powerful being that are then imposed on people. Therefore atheists either cant be moral, or at best will only have 'feel-good' arbitrary morals. I dont think morals can be rules imposed on a people, anymore than you can force someone to love you. The example of the Canaanites is relevant because it shows that however flawed you think my definition of morality is, yours doesnt do any better. Believing that God is the source of morality forces you into the absurd position of having to claim that immoral atrocities described in the past were moral because God commanded them. Barry posted his alt-history as an argument that in such a world Christians would be the only people to think that the holocaust was wrong. But he admits that he believes that whatever God wants is moral. Therefore the holocaust was moral if God wanted it, and it would be easy for Christians in that reality to believe that God did want it.RodW
March 8, 2018
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Change the concluding words of Becky's Lesson to "The Left controls society with an iron fist and have indoctrinated the society they control to celebrate abortion on demand as a great good, instead of an unspeakable evil." How many millions have died by this SO FAR? How many a/mat will claim it's justifiable because society determines moral values? All of them? No need to go back to WWII or the O/T when there is this and many other current examples of the vacuous nature of a/mat moral preening.LoneCycler
March 8, 2018
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In the summer of 1945, Harry Truman ordered atomic bombs to be dropped on two Japanese cities killing over 100,000 people, including women, children, and infants. Most a/mats rationalize Truman's actions as being necessary for the greater good, but then spit vitriolic hatred toward God for ordering the Canaanite purge. Modern politicians (including a/mat liberals) regularly order the slaughter of women, children, and infants in countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq, I rarely hear a/mat outrage over such carnage... just hypocritical rationalizations.Truth Will Set You Free
March 8, 2018
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Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the Lord your God. (Deut. 20.16-18)
If people needed punishment, why only the people in the land they were given?
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Sam 15:2-3)
critical rationalist
March 8, 2018
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The obvious purpose of the story is to refute the lame materialist assertion that we see all-too-many times in these pages that “morality comes from society.” The story exposes the vacuity of this position by demonstrating that if society determines morality, the Holocaust would have been moral if the Nazis had won the war and controlled societal discourse.
Yes, Barry. Your intention was just that. But your purpose for a story doesn't limit it's usefulness. We do cannot control how our ideas will be used. That's because what we care about is the contents of an idea, not its source or the source's intention.
CR: Is this supposed to be some kind of argument? BA: Of course not CR. Read it again, this time for comprehension. I am not arguing.
It’s not? Then how does “living memory” make the Holocaust any worse, or a 3,000 years old command to slaughter Cannonite women and children any better? Why mention it at all?
I am pointing out that you want to change the subject because you are too cowardly to address the argument I made other than with childish “what about-ism.”
Again, your assuming the story represents two different viewpoints. I’m saying that, on closer inspection, they actually share the same underlying philosophical position. Both are justificationists arguing over which “final solution” is authoritative. That’s not “what about-ism.” That’s pointing out a similarity you apparently failed to identify when you write it, as outlined in this comment IOW, you seem to be assuming your story can only be used for the purpose you intended.critical rationalist
March 8, 2018
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Good post. Spot on logic. CR misses the point... completely.Truth Will Set You Free
March 8, 2018
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