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Why I am not a young Earth creationist (YEC)

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From O’Leary: Recently, I promised I’d say a bit about that, and a bit is all I am going to say.

It is much more difficult to explain why you are not something than why you are something.

Usually, a person is not something because of an infinite array of counterfactuals. But what the person is,  is factuals, which are often quite easy to explain. (= I know that town because I grew up there. I got a scholarship for the X program, not another one. I moved to the city to find a job. I went to the Billy Graham Crusade. Etc.)

So, a little background: I grew up in communities where most people held contradictory views of the history of life. That is, they believed in Adam and Eve and also in The Caveman.

If this bifurcation seems counterintuitive, consider that a human being can easily espouse contradictory views on the same subject, so long as the views are not a source of conflict in himself or his community, such that he is forced to choose between them. And they weren’t, with us.

In public schools in the 1960s, we memorized passages from the Bible and sang hymns. The mainline denomination my cradle Catholic parents had joined when I was a small child had no problem with Darwinian evolution, even for the origin of life, that I ever heard of. But we still learned about Adam and Eve from Sunday School teachers.

One town in particular was a respectable working class community where intellectuals were rare. One resident was something of a mystery to us because he taught at the university. Who knows, he might have raised a question, but no one else did. Like most Canadians, we believed in “peace, order, and good government”, and simply did not raise issues where the public welfare was not at stake. Putting Adam and Eve to a vote against The Caveman would have seemed an utterly needless contention.

It makes for a much less dynamic society than the U.S., compensated for by a much lower rate of crime and violence.

I only had occasion to become aware of YEC in the 2000’s, while indexing books written by authors of that persuasion for a religious publishing house. Now, an indexer skim reads (to avoid starvation) but I gathered that these authors thought the authority of Scripture as divine revelation was the principle issue at stake. If the first few verses of Genesis were not to be understood literally, the whole edifice would fall apart.

Later, I learned more about YEC. For example, the role of water engineer Henry Morris in creating its theoretical basis after World War II. Indeed, I ended up writing several chapters of By Design or by Chance? on young Earth creationism. These chapters were aimed at people who, like me, were neither foes nor fans, but wanted to know why people they respected were concerned enough to espouse it. At any rate, what was clear to me was that the need for YEC, quite apart from evidence for it, depends on taking a specific view about how Scripture is to be read, a view I didn’t happen to take.

The evidence may be good; I am no judge of that. I use NASA’s dating because it is widely accepted and comprehensible. I can (and have) written a “stasis” chart, listing life forms I have heard about that are unchanged over vast periods of time and through many ecological developments. The chart uses NASA’s dating. But many science-based estimates of Earth’s age have been offered over the decades. And for all I know, NASA will one day announce that Earth is really only 100 million years old or maybe 10 billion, and I must then recalibrate it all, based on what they say afterward.

By now, you may get at least some sense of why ID supporters generally don’t fight among ourselves about the matter. Why bother? We are united by the perception that Darwinism and its offspring are just one of many current melds between science and crackpot metaphysics (one could add multiverses, “evolutionary” psychology, and “the mind is just the brain buzzing” neuroscience to the list). Darwinism happens to be the meld that we, as a community, know the most about.

For example, if you wanted to know more about what’s wrong with “the mind is just the brain buzzing” neuroscience, you would do better to talk to “mindfulness” neuroscientists than us. There is overlap, of course. I myself am co-author of The Spiritual Brain. But they are a whole separate group engaged with that issue.

Incidentally, it certainly doesn’t help Darwinism’s reputation to be infested by atheist trolls who broadcast their anti-religious opinions in foul language, then hypocritically obsess about other people’s religious commitments, generally uglifying public debate.

One can’t help but ask, what kind of “science” attracts such people? A range of reasonable answers to that question is quite short. And it does not make Darwinism sound like a science so much as a metaphysic for trolls.

Of course not everyone who believes in Darwinism is by any means a troll. But if you have condemned yourself to being a troll, please do be a Darwinist. Rant and curse, and try to get books suppressed—and let the rest of us get on trying to understand the true history of evolution in relation to the creation and flow of information, of which Darwin did not dream.

Now, I slowly made my way back to the Catholic Church, and am a Catholic in communion with the Church. Traditional Catholics have a very high view of Scripture, as will be evident to anyone who pays attention at Mass.

But we tend to interpret Scripture on many levels (literal, mystical, allegorical, anagogical, for example, just to start).

The Church takes no official position on the age of Earth. Its position on evolution generally has been grossly misrepresented, whether intentionally or from ignorance or from—I suspect this is most common—the deception of Catholic Darwinist academics. See, for example Douglas Futuyma whose simply wrong comments may well stem from the third cause.

So, yes, a Catholic can be a YEC in good faith, and some are. Most are not. The Catholic approach to Scripture does not drive us in the direction of making a formal decision in such matters.

(Believe you me: When the Church thinks she must make a formal, official decision, via an Encyclical—a letter addressed to all Catholics—she just does, and damn the torpedoes.)

So there it is. That is why I am not a YEC, and also don’t have a problem with people who are.

Comments
Clavdis @ 23 http://www.setterfield.org/000docs/astronomicaldiscussion.htm#supernovasJGuy
July 1, 2013
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scordova @ 19
scordova: ... One reason, just on evidential (not theological) grounds to suspect this possibility is that the age of the stars far from us seems too similar to the age of stars close to us. CLAVDIVS: What is the evidence for this? scordova: That pertained to a special case of decreasing speed-of-light scenarios such as proposed by Barry Setterfield ...
This is not evidence. You're the one that claimed evidence - do you actually have any that distant stars do not appear young enough?
CLAVIDVS: And what about measurements of objects like the supernova of 1987 where we can calculate, by trigonometry, that it occurred over 160,000 years ago regardless of whether the speed of light has changed from its present value? scordova: The prevailing cosmological solution to General Relativity is Friedman-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker (FLRW) for the big bang, but FLRW is only one of an infinite number of solutions to Einstein’s field equations for General Relativity. I mentioned John Hartnett here: [link] who proposed the Hartnett-Carmeli solution to the Einstein Field equations.
scordova, you should know that your response has nothing to do with trigonometric measurements of a "right next door" object in the Large Magellanic Cloud like supernova 1987A. FLRW and Hartnett are talking about the large-scale structure of the universe. And we know from measurements of SN1987A that it occurred at least 160,000 years ago, regardless of whether the speed of light was the same then, or whether it has sped up or slowed down.
But all this is way beyond the scope of Denyse’s OP. It’s worth talking about sometime, but probably not today!
It's not beyond the scope of the OP, which is specifically about YEC. It's understandable you want to avoid discussion because YEC conflicts with the evidence so badly. But avoidance wont make the problems go away.CLAVDIVS
July 1, 2013
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I guess I would self-identify as an OEC, although I am a Christian. To me, the facts disagree with YEC logic: (1) Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2) End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years. Genesis 1:3-31 is not discussing the original creation of matter or of the heavenly bodies. It describes the preparation of the already existing earth for human habitation. This included creation of the basic kinds of vegetation, marine life, flying creatures, land animals, and the first human pair. All of this is said to have been done within a period of six “days.” However, the Hebrew word translated “day” has a variety of meanings, including ‘a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event.’ (Old Testament Word Studies, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1978, W. Wilson, p. 109) The term used allows for the thought that each “day” could have been thousands of years in length.Barb
July 1, 2013
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The Bible doesn't say when the earth was created. That is all "determined" by genealogies.Joe
July 1, 2013
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I tend to agree with CLAVDIVS that there are some non-radiometric observational data that undermine a creation date of 4004BC. Though that might make the universe too old for a strict interpretation of the Bible, the universe could still be too young for neo-darwinism. The moon, for example, gives us good reason to consider that possibility…
Well said. We have other problems like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox
The faint young Sun paradox or problem describes the apparent contradiction between observations of liquid water early in the Earth's history and the astrophysical expectation that the Sun's output would be only 70% as intense during that epoch as it is during the modern epoch.
Which means the Earth could be young! and the scientific journal Nature points out the paradox is unresolved: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7349/full/nature09961.html And I wrote about problems regarding the geological column: https://uncommondescent.com/creationism/cocktail-falsifying-darwinism-via-falsifying-the-geological-column/ and see this comment in that thread: https://uncommondescent.com/creationism/cocktail-falsifying-darwinism-via-falsifying-the-geological-column/#comment-456078
http://creation.com/c14-dinos team of researchers gave a presentation at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13–17, at which they gave 14C dating results from many bone samples from eight dinosaur specimens. All gave dates ranging from 22,000 to 39,000 years, right in the ‘ballpark’ predicted by creationists.1 But if dinosaurs really were millions of years old, there should not be one atom of 14C left in them. Two of the report’s physicist co-authors … are urging colleagues to do their own carbon dating of dinosaur bones. This was a joint event of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS). It appears that the researchers approached the matter with considerable professionalism, including taking great pains to eliminate contamination with modern carbon as a source of the 14C signal in the bones. The lead presenter was Dr Thomas Seiler, a German physicist whose PhD is from the Technical University of Munich. …. Two of the report’s physicist co-authors, Professor Dr Robert Bennett and Dr Jean de Pontcharra, till recently with the French Atomic Energy Commission’s Grenoble Research Centre, are urging colleagues to do their own carbon dating of dinosaur bones. They say that the media should be encouraging scientists to do this also, presenting the findings openly and honestly at similar conferences. This would certainly be in the interests of scientific truth—especially following the repeated findings of soft tissue in dinosaur bones, and now even seemingly irrefutable DNA in dinosaur specimens.3 The public has the right to know the actual chronology of the dinosaurs, and indeed the history of the earth. Of course the people you know will generally not get to hear this powerful information from regular sources.
What did I say about future developments being entertaining. :-)scordova
July 1, 2013
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What is the evidence for this? And what about measurements of objects like the supernova of 1987 where we can calculate, by trigonometry, that it occurred over 160,000 years ago regardless of whether the speed of light has changed from its present value? Isn’t that rock-solid disproof of a young-universe scenario?
That pertained to a special case of decreasing speed-of-light scenarios such as proposed by Barry Setterfield, not something like alternate solutions to General Relativity such as Hartnett-Caremeli-Humphrys. The prevailing cosmological solution to General Relativity is Friedman-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker (FLRW) for the big bang, but FLRW is only one of an infinite number of solutions to Einstein's field equations for General Relativity. I mentioned John Hartnett here: https://uncommondescent.com/creationism/yec-john-harnett-accumulates-almost-5-7-million-dollars-in-science-grants/ who proposed the Hartnett-Carmeli solution to the Einstein Field equations. But all this is way beyond the scope of Denyse's OP. It's worth talking about sometime, but probably not today!scordova
July 1, 2013
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I tend to agree with CLAVDIVS that there are some non-radiometric observational data that undermine a creation date of 4004BC. Though that might make the universe too old for a strict interpretation of the Bible, the universe could still be too young for neo-darwinism. The moon, for example, gives us good reason to consider that possibility...Chris Doyle
July 1, 2013
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scordova @
Alternatively, and maybe better there may be an existing mechanism for distant starlight to reach us quickly. One reason, just on evidential (not theological) grounds to suspect this possibility is that the age of the stars far from us seems too similar to the age of stars close to us.
What is the evidence for this? And what about measurements of objects like the supernova of 1987 where we can calculate, by trigonometry, that it occurred over 160,000 years ago regardless of whether the speed of light has changed from its present value? Isn't that rock-solid disproof of a young-universe scenario?CLAVDIVS
July 1, 2013
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Breckmin@15 I'm a YEC. Even though I suspect there is quite a bit of confirmation bias going on with dating methods, I do suspect that much/most of the radioactive decay surmised as having happened has actually occurred. So, accelerated nuclear decay is fine with me. I know this has a question/problem of what to do with the heat energy from all that decay..but..I consider our universe as wearing down in ways. So, things like VSL [see scordova above] seem as likely appealing/elegant ideas/outcomes. But other cosmic level changes... such as a period of rapid expansion of space coinciding with the accelerated decay. This may very well absorb the energy of that mentioned decay into the fabric of space itself. Perhaps, akin to super critical water suddenly expanding in volume may cool it. Just some thoughts. Psalm 102: "24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:" - KJV w/ my bold emphasis.JGuy
July 1, 2013
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scordova said, "...radiometric dating problem is the most difficult right now." Any YEC responses?Breckmin
July 1, 2013
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apologize for the phenomenological typoBreckmin
July 1, 2013
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For me personally, scordova, C-14 and geometric dating was always the easiest to explain due to false assumptions regarding uniformity and especially assumptions regarding a denial of a flood (antediluvian carbon rates, as well as assumptions regarding any parent element. Your observation of the theory regarding the age of stars has been made before, but there is still the question of distance of travel regardless of age speculation. I thank you for your response. @ Robert Byers We know that the Holy Spirit of God convicts us to the truth of the scriptures... but there is a clear difference between essential content and non-essential detail. Perhaps you do not see the pragmatism of minor human error being part of the process of biblical authority...or how the prophets and apostles keep their authority even if they make a minor mistake on non-essential detail. If I could find doctrinal statements that say "the scriptures are God-Breathed"(theopneustos)rather than "inerrant" I could sign whole-hardheartedly because I almost always agree with the doctrinal points that follow... but for those of us who have studied extensively in the science of textual criticism it seems pointless to deny the minor discrepancies and textual variances we see (not to mention the imperfection of the paleo Hebrew, Aramaic and common (koine)Greek languages. These clearly make the concept of the English word "inerrant" inapplicable from a practical standpoint. We still stand on the authority of the writings of the apostles and prophets...we still take a literal interpretation unless logic (practical wisdom) dictates that we shouldn't (phemonicalogical,anthropomorphic, idoms, hyperbole, etc). Most importantly, we submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and funnel all theology and cumulative case arguments to be consistent with His teachings. Genesis, however, is not written as a meticulous scientific text. There are many many questions we could raise regarding simply dating the age of the earth. I remain agnostic on the age of the earth. If it's 100,000 years or 20,000 or even a million... it doesn't underscore or change my theology.Breckmin
July 1, 2013
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Interesting autobiography on a personal opinion. For YEC like me it all starts with fantastic confidence in the bible as true. Its claiming to be a witness to origins of this and that. So its a witness in good standing until shown otherwise. Just a credible witness I mean. Its makes sense to evangelicals that the bible is true front to back. So correction of it by man (however brilliant ) is still reasonably held in suspicion. In short PROVE the bible is wrong! YEC therefore takes on any evidence brought against the bible. Our conclusions come first from scripture but our aggressive opposition comes from intellectual confidence and investigation of our opponents evidence. They only have the evidence of nature. So if we are right it shouldn't be too hard to beat them up. They do try to mess up methodology stuff but ID people screw this up too. YEC always asks creationists(Not however YEC) things like did GOD creat man/woman so separate as to not be born OR about the flood claim or why God would have a long time existing planet with nothing going on important about peopleETC ETC. It does seem to us fellow creationists don't think Genesis got it right! Man got a lot more right even while getting some wrong. Who do you trust??Robert Byers
July 1, 2013
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Breckmin, Actually I think the radiometric dating problem is the most difficult right now. The speed of light had been postulated to be faster in the past, and right away that made many YECs leap for joy. This was not from YEC quarters but secular ones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light Alternatively, and maybe better there may be an existing mechanism for distant starlight to reach us quickly. One reason, just on evidential (not theological) grounds to suspect this possibility is that the age of the stars far from us seems too similar to the age of stars close to us. This sort of violates the presumption of the invariance of the speed of light in all parts of space, because if light speed were invariant in all parts of space we ought to see stars looking younger if the are far away, they don't, and this is causing serious indigestion among some astronomers. Too early to tell what's going on, but like I said, we could be in for some surprises as we improve our space probes and telescopes. Professors at one of my alma maters, George Mason, had skepticism of the Big Bang. Lots of things are on the table. I can't cover them all in the short space of this discussion, and new data could start causing anarchy in cosmology and astronomy in the not too distant future. We'll see! Should be entertaining!scordova
June 30, 2013
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Astronomy is still an obstacle for YEC. Geometric dating can be explained, but stellar light projection verses the expanding universe still leaves me completely agnostic on the age of matter in the universe. I believe that the universe is infinite and part of God's infinite domain. Time and Space both infinite - so I have no issues with the age of the universe (just the galaxies). Perhaps I suppress a desire to be YEC. I was YEC briefly in the 1980's (but I was also briefly T.E. near that time (when I was a very liberal Christian) bouncing around a lot in the 80's). I have never been able to swallow inerrancy (in the sense of verbal plenary inspiration)even as a child - I always saw the imperfections of human languages but I have always believed that God's Word (logos)is 100% but it is contained in the scriptures (grapha) but not exactly equal to it. I would welcome any links to a scientific case for YEC. I used to read Russell Humpreys and John Baumgardner but the flood model only makes the case for "young human race" and doesn't demonstrate real limitations on the length of an antediluvian period or earth prior to Adam. Welcome responses.Breckmin
June 30, 2013
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Well, NASA's date system relies on radiometric dating: hence the disagreement. The acid test for BioLogos, Miller and Matzke: did God plan for mankind? Unless the response is: "God? There is no God!" then Internet Atheists everywhere - those who believe that it all made itself by accident - will turn the flames up to maximum and burn until there is nothing left!Chris Doyle
June 30, 2013
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From O'Leary: I don't have an opinion about radiometric dating. I use NASA's date system because it is well-organized and widely accepted. My business is communication, so that figures. I don't agree that BioLogos, Ken Miller, or Nick Matzke are in the same camp as I am, nor would they. But I would rather report than argue in any event.News
June 30, 2013
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This is an excellent, thoughtful and honest OP. Thank-you very much. The true divide is between those who believe that it all made itself by accident (most, but not all, atheists) and those who believe it was made on purpose. YEC, ID and even TE are all in the latter camp. BioLogos, Ken Miller and even Nick Matzke are all in the same camp as those who believe it was made on purpose. They just have furious rows about the technical details because they are confused about where the true divide lies. I'm not a YEC, I'm not even a Christian, but like O'Leary, retain an open mind about the age of the Earth. Unlike O'Leary, I'm sceptical about radiometric dating and think YEC scientists offer intriguing and valuable facts and findings about the age of the Earth which we would otherwise not discuss or even know about.Chris Doyle
June 30, 2013
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Thanks, Jon. That sounds right, culturally. Everyone knew there was a problem and agreed on what it was. Many Christians here who have no issues around the age of Earth insist that Adam and Eve must have been actual people, principally because no other option feels right to them as an explanation for humanity as we know it. But infighting on that subject or on the age of Earth is rare here too. We all have bigger issues, ones that we can and must settle in real time. - O'LearyNews
June 30, 2013
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To me, the soft tissue thing in the t-Rex sealed the deal that the world is probably young.
It's a very real problem, and there are more fossils and problems to come. There are astrophysical observations that will happen in the future. I expect some awesome surprises. Now with respect to my OEC brethren, I see no reason for YECs to ever be hostile to their OEC brethren. The OECs are the ones taking the brunt of persecution in academia. Many of those in the movie Expelled were not YECs. YECs need to care and support their persecuted brethren even if there is disagreement. There will be lots of surprises. I'm cautiously optimistic. :-)scordova
June 30, 2013
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Denyse The Canadian situation you describe was pretty much identical in Britain in the 60s. The first discussions I remember (other than at home) were at Cambridge University, where Evangelical Christians (as well as the Catholics I knew) held and discussed a range of options from YEC through OEC to TE - ID of course did not exist then. The odd thing was that though people disagreed, they neither considered it a matter for religious infighting nor for doubting others' intelligence or honesty. It's actually still quite like that here, outside of the media realm - every now and again I have to get out of the blogosphere long enough to realise that ordinary people - especially ordinary Christians - are often just interested to weigh the evidence if you discuss it with them.Jon Garvey
June 30, 2013
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YEC is the only logical alternative to Darwinism. It's one or the other, as the mechanism of creation is either instantaneously-miraculous or it's not. OEC is not only illogical but it lacks any sort of evidence that "ID," whatever that is is capable of turning monkeys into humans, much less bacteria into humans. To me, the soft tissue thing in the t-Rex sealed the deal that the world is probably young. There's lots of other stuff but to me that isnimpossible for the old-age crowd to explain.vh
June 30, 2013
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Get your popcorn from CostCo and save. - O'Leary ;)News
June 30, 2013
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Thanks for posting. I was raised an Old Earth Darwinist in a Roman Catholic home. My current church affiliation, The Presbyterian Church in America, has no stance on YEC either. I'm sympathetic but not convinced of YECs truthfulness. I wouldn't necessarily wager on it in other words. Not so with ID. That's a good bet. The YEC debate on scientific (not theological) grounds has relevance to ID as I discussed here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/cocktail-the-relevance-of-yec-to-id/ I would not count the YECs out in terms of how much irritation they will be to the Darwinists in the not too distant future. They'll continue to assail the geological ages and other sacrosanct ideas, not because of theology, but because there will be, like Michael Denton was for ID, dissent from secular quarters. It should be very entertaining!scordova
June 30, 2013
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