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Why I think the interaction problem is real

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Regular readers of my posts will be aware that I reject materialism. One of the strongest arguments for materialism, however, is that its alternative, dualism, is untenable. The main problem confronting dualism is the “interaction problem”: how can an immaterial mind, which is completely lacking in physical properties, exert any causal influence on the material world? The idea seems to make no sense at all.

In today’s post, I’m going to examine one argument which attempts to dissolve the interaction problem, and explain why I think the argument does not succeed. (I’ll propose a tentative solution in my next post.) According to the solution put forward by Professor Edward Feser, a well-known philosopher of mind, the interaction problem only arises if you think (as Descartes is supposed to have done) that mind and body are two things, and that the former interacts with the latter in a purely mechanical fashion – as if the mind were like a “spiritual billiard ball” that could somehow set “physical billiard balls” (i.e. neurons in the brain) in motion. (Descartes’ actual views are the subject of some debate, but the picture I’ve outlined here is commonly referred to as Cartesian dualism.) Professor Feser objects strongly to the mechanical conception of causality that has dominated philosophy for the last 300 years, because it completely ignores the directedness (or finality) of causal processes, as well as the forms of causal agents, which make them the kinds of entities they are.

While I share Feser’s view that Cartesian dualism is flawed, I disagree with his claim that Aristotle’s hylemorphic dualism (which views the soul as the form of the body and not as a separate entity) automatically dissolves the interaction problem. I shall argue that while minds do not interact with brains, people can and do interact with their brains in a non-physical manner. (Just to be clear, I’m talking about efficient-causal interaction here: I’m claiming that I can cause the neurons in my brain to move, simply by deciding to raise my arm.) If people couldn’t interact with their brains, then their choices would not be able to change the course of events occurring in the outside world, and determinism would be true. Hylemorphic dualism doesn’t tell us how people interact with their brains, so I would regard it as an incomplete solution to the so-called “mind-body problem.” In my next post, I’ll attempt to provide an account of how we can interact with our brains.

Feser is not alone in his view that hylemorphic dualism solves the interaction problem. In their Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience (Blackwell Publishing, Oxford, 2003), M.R. Bennett and P.M.S. Hacker write:

…[T]he question of how the mind can interact with the body is emphatically not a question that can arise for Aristotle. Within the framework of Aristotelian thought, as we have seen (1.1), the very question is as senseless as the question, “How can the shape of the table interact with the wood of the table?” Aristotle manifestly did not leave this as a problem within his philosophy. (p. 46)

But the analogy of the mind with the shape of a table is flawed. Aristotle himself regarded the mind as capable of performing operations such as thinking, and he seems to have viewed the intellect as an immaterial faculty, although his views on personal immortality remain the subject of considerable debate (De Anima Book III, Parts 4, 5 & 6). The shape of a table, by contrast, has no operations of its own, which are independent of the matter of the table. So with the greatest respect to Bennett and Hacker, Aristotle’s philosophy of mind has its own

Professor Feser argues that the interaction problem disappears when we treat the soul as the form of the body and not as a separate thing. That is, my soul is what makes my body a human body, and not the body of a chimp or some other organism, or a pile of dust. Feser contends that whenever I act, my actions have a final cause (the end I’m trying to achieve), a formal cause (the pattern or structure of the action itself), a material cause (the matter in my body that actually carries out the action) and an efficient cause (whatever it is that makes my body move when I act). Feser contends that when I perform a bodily action such as writing a blog, the movement of neurons in my brain and arm and the attendant flexing of muscles constitute the material cause of my action, and also the efficient cause, presumably because these neurons are the parts of my body whose movements cause my hands to move when I press the keys on my computer. My thoughts and intentions, on the other hand, comprise the formal cause and the final cause of my action: my thoughts give the blog post the “form” or structure that it has as an essay, while my intentions define my purpose for writing the post. In Feser’s own words:

As I move my fingers across the keyboard, then, what is occurring is not the transfer of energy (or whatever) from some Cartesian immaterial substance to a material one (my brain), which sets up a series of neural events that are from that point on “on their own” as it were, with no further action required of the soul. There is just one substance, namely me, though a substance the understanding of which requires taking note of each of its formal-, material-, final- and efficient-causal aspects. To be sure, my action counts as writing a blog post rather than (say) undergoing a muscular spasm in part because of the specific pattern of neural events, muscular contractions, and so forth underlying it. But only in part. Yet that does not mean that there is an entirely separate set of events occurring in a separate substance that somehow influences, from outside as it were, the goings on in the body. Rather, the neuromuscular processes are by themselves only the material-cum-efficient causal aspect of a single event of which my thoughts and intentions are the formal-cum-final causal aspect.

Problem solved? I think not. What’s wrong with this rosy picture? The problem, as I see it, is that it fails to address the question: what is the efficient cause of the movement of neurons in my brain, when I am writing a blog? What makes these neurons move? What pushes them? An obvious answer would be “the soul,” but Professor Feser expressly rules this out:

The soul doesn’t “interact” with the body considered as an independently existing object, but rather constitutes the matter of the human body as a human body in the first place, as its formal (as opposed to efficient) cause.

There are two comments that I would like to make here. The first is that Feser’s remarks address only a crude Cartesian form of dualism, according to which the soul is the efficient cause of movement in the body (which is ontologically distinct from it). However, they overlook the possibility that the soul, which is the form of the body, is also able to act independently of the body’s matter, and cause certain parts of the body (e.g. neurons in the brain) to move. Here, the soul would be acting as an efficient cause as well as a formal cause.

Second, Feser’s solution to the interaction problem ignores the question of whether the cause of the movement of neurons in my brain is a deterministic cause or not. For instance, if outside stimuli impinging on my body cause the neurons in my brain to move, then it seems there is no room for human freedom, as the action of these stimuli can be described in a deterministic fashion on a molecular level. Throwing in a bit of indeterminism at the subatomic level doesn’t seem to help matters, either; it just creates an element of randomness, which is not the same thing as freedom.

It seems to me, then, that in order to restore human freedom, we have to affirm at least two things: we have to say that people can influence their brains, and we have to say that top-down (macro–>micro) causation is real and fundamental. For if causation is always bottom-up (micro–>macro) and never top-down, or alternatively, if top-down causation is real, but only happens because it has already been determined by some preceding occurrence of bottom-up causation, then our actions are simply the product of our body chemistry – in which case they are not free, as they are determined by external circumstances which lie beyond our control. But if top-down causation is real and fundamental, then events occurring at a holistic level – including a person’s choices – can determine events at a microscopic level, such as their neuro-muscular movements.

The position we have now reached, then, is that if we want to defend human freedom, we have to believe that human acts (i.e. actions which are properly ascribed to persons and not to their body parts) can and do influence lower-level actions, which occur at various locations in the human body, such as activities taking place in human cells when they process incoming signals. We also have to say that the operation of cells is not always deterministic, or even generally deterministic with occasional random disturbances, but that fundamental, higher-level actions can shape the behavior of cells.

What might these higher-level actions be? It might seem tempting to say that higher-level bodily actions can bring about lower-level bodily actions. That’s fine, so far as it goes. However, if we are to have genuine freedom, then these higher-level bodily actions must be just as ontologically fundamental as the lower-level bodily actions that they determine. For if these higher-level actions are determined by lower-level bodily actions occurring at a previous time, then we are back at square one again: we are once more the prisoners of our body chemistry, and bottom-up causation rules.

Could a bodily action, even a higher-level one, be free? I would argue that it cannot, for several reasons. I’ll mention just two; Professor Feser has provided many more (see here, here, here, here and here). First, free choices presuppose a capacity for abstract thinking; but a process taking place at a particular point (or set of points) in my body is (by definition) not abstract but concrete; hence a bodily action is incapable of embodying an abstract concept. Second, free choices and the thoughts that accompany them have an inherent meaning, but bodily processes such as neuronal firings are not inherently meaningful; hence a bodily action is incapable of embodying a free choice. I have discussed these arguments elsewhere, so I won’t elaborate on them here.

The position we have now reached is that if we are to defend human freedom, we have to make a third affirmation; we have to affirm that some human actions (thoughts and choices) are non-bodily actions, and that by performing these actions, human beings are capable of influencing events occurring in the cells of their bodies. And since motor movements begin in the brain, we seem to be committed to the proposition that human beings can, by thinking and choosing, influence events in their brains.

This may sound odd. After all, not everyone knows that they even have a brain: many children don’t, and I imagine many people in times past didn’t know, either. How, it might be asked, can I possibly influence my brain simply by deciding to raise my arm, if I am not thinking about my brain as such, or if I don’t even know I have a brain?

The answer, I believe, is that we just have to take it as a basic fact of human nature that whenever I perform the non-bodily action of deciding to move my right arm, region “X” of the motor homunculus in my brain (i.e. the area in my brain which governs right arm movements) is activated, and whenever I decide to move my right leg instead, region “Y” of the motor homunculus in my brain (which governs right leg movements) is activated. “How convenient!” you might say. And it is. Indeed, it’s more than convenient – it’s absolutely extraordinary. If we were not made that way, voluntary action would be impossible. Since the soul is the form of the body only, I cannot will other objects to move; telekinesis is impossible. I can only move my body parts.

So my solution to the interaction problem is simply to say that God has made human beings with certain built-in psycho-physical correspondences between their (immaterial) mental acts of choosing to move different body parts, and the resulting movements of the various regions of the brain which govern these different body parts.

I am of course well aware that the foregoing account of the mechanics of voluntary movement is grossly oversimplified, as it overlooks such things as feedback, forward modeling, fine motor-tuning and proprioception. Many of these features are found even in insects, which are responsive to stimuli and capable of associative learning, but lack sentience. Now if people can voluntarily fine-tune their actions, then of course they need to be aware at a conscious level of what’s happening to their bodies when they move. However, I don’t think that we need to postulate any extra psycho-physical correspondences on that account. At the very most, we might need further correspondences between people’s mental acts of choosing and other parts of their nervous system, besides the motor homunculus in the brain.

So far I have only talked about how I move my body, through my acts of will. What about God? How does He manage to move bodies, if He is a pure spirit? What needs to be kept in mind here is that God keeps bodies in being and is the Author of their very natures. So it is simply inconceivable that they could fail to respond to His will. However, I would like to draw attention to one little-noticed consequence of the fact that God can move bodies at will: it entails that all physical things have non-physical properties. (I owe this insight to Professor David Oderberg.) Each and every physical object has the property that whenever God wills that it should perform some action, it will perform that action. Insofar as this property of the object is a property that refers to an incorporeal Being (God), it is a non-physical property.

I haven’t addressed the scientific question of how freedom is possible in this post, or how I can influence my body without breaking any laws of Nature. That will be the subject of a future post.

Comments
So far I have only talked about how I move my body, through my acts of will. What about God? How does He manage to move bodies, if He is a pure spirit? What needs to be kept in mind here is that God keeps bodies in being and is the Author of their very natures. So it is simply inconceivable that they could fail to respond to His will. However, I would like to draw attention to one little-noticed consequence of the fact that God can move bodies at will: it entails that all physical things have non-physical properties. (I owe this insight to Professor David Oderberg.) Each and every physical object has the property that whenever God wills that it should perform some action, it will perform that action. Insofar as this property of the object is a property that refers to an incorporeal Being (God), it is a non-physical property.
Indeed. In the final analysis, spirit is the only thing that ultimately moves matter. Particles-in-general "following the laws of physics" is no less a matter-spirit interaction than the (dreaded-by-materialists) "ghost in the machine". No laws of physics are violated when the mind causes matter to move in the nervous system, because the exact same ultimate laws are being followed during the operation of inanimate matter: namely matter following the will of spirit, either God's or the free-will-possessing creature's. Matter is, and has always been at the disposal of mind, in one way or another. The "interaction problem" only arises if one assumes that matter is primary.Matteo
July 13, 2011
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"how can an immaterial mind, which is completely lacking in physical properties, exert any causal influence on the material world? The idea seems to make no sense at all." Dualism is false because the spacetime universe is merely a computed "virtual reality" construct in the same domain where consciousness exists. Consciousness doesn't interact with particles in spacetime. It interacts with the thing that is *generating* the particles (as computed entities), to which our science can never probe. Unlike the Matrix movie, the more fundamental reality is not merely an image of the virtual reality. The fundamental reality is impossible to describe or detect directly. The fundamental reality implements all spacetime objects and consciousness is on that level. Consciousness is the Real Thing. Space-time and its objects are the artifacts. The interaction of consciousness and spacetime objects are at the level of spacetime implementation, not "within" spacetime.mike1962
July 13, 2011
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This may be of 'technical' interest: Quantum coherence in ion channels: resonances, transport and verification - 2010 Excerpt: Ion channels are protein complexes that regulate the flow of particular ions across the cell membrane and are essential for a large range of cellular functions [19]. Besides their role in neuronal communications, in which voltage-gated channels and ligand-gated channels are involved in the generation of action potentials and mediating synaptic release, more generally ion channels play a key role in processes that rely on fast responses on the bio-molecular scale. Examples include muscle contraction, epithelial transport and T-cell activation [19, 20],,, A closer look at the involved dimensions and energetics of the process reveals that the underlying mechanism for ion transmission and selectivity might not be entirely classical. http://www.vaziria.com/pdf/Quantum%20Resonances%20in%20ion%20channels.pdfbornagain77
July 13, 2011
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However, I would like to draw attention to one little-noticed consequence of the fact that God can move bodies at will: it entails that all physical things have non-physical properties. (I owe this insight to Professor David Oderberg.) Each and every physical object has the property that whenever God wills that it should perform some action, it will perform that action.
This sounds a bit like an attempt to explain something unknown about God through philosophy. We don't know whether he operates on physical matter through some non-physical attribute. The scriptures describe Him as doing things by means of His spirit. Perhaps He has a manner of projecting Himself to interact with matter in a physical way. I don't mean to speculate - that's exactly my point, that we can't make such statements with any degree of certainty. As for dualism - curiously Wikipedia refers to Genesis 2:7, describing when Adam became a soul. It's hard to see why they would do so, because the Hebrew word for 'soul' is also used to refer to animals and even dead bodies. Many translations cover over this by translating nephesh as 'being' when it refers to Adam but as 'creature' when it refers to an animal. They shouldn't do that because it deliberately obscures the repeated use of the same word, replacing the meaning of the verses with what the translators would like it to be and hiding the original meaning. No one who wrote those original verses or read them in the first 1000 years after they were written ever thought of the soul as something different from themselves. They used the expression "my soul" much as we would say "I" or "myself," such as "My soul is hungry." The scriptures don't need an infusion of Greek philosophy to be complete. In fact they urge caution toward such influences.ScottAndrews
July 13, 2011
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Great post! These are the kinds of posts that keep me coming back to UD. Fundamental questions get investigated and ideas proposed without an umbilical attachment to pure materialism. Look forward to the next.MedsRex
July 13, 2011
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GreatMedsRex
July 13, 2011
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This also may be on interest: This following experiment is really interesting: Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiment, "Since you ultimately believe that the 'god of random chance' produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?" Here is another article that is far more nuanced in the discerning of 'transcendent mind' from material brain, than the 'brute' empirical evidence I've listed: The Mind and Materialist Superstition - Six "conditions of mind" that are irreconcilable with materialism: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.htmlbornagain77
July 13, 2011
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A few empirical notes that may be of interest: It is interesting to note that a extremely high level of epigenetic information 'suddenly' disappears at the moment of death: The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings There is very strong reason to believe that this extremely high level of epigenetic information, which 'suddenly' disappears at the moment of death, is 'non-local' quantum information: Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ ================= further notes: It is also interesting to note that quantum mechanics is also found to be necessary for Smelling, Hearing, and Vision; Quantum explanation for how we smell gets new support - March 2011 Excerpt: According to Turin’s theory, the additional criteria are the vibrational frequencies of odorant molecules. A molecule’s vibrational frequency can cause electrons in the nasal receptors to tunnel between two energy states if the vibrational frequency matches the energy difference of the two states. Tunneling is a quantum mechanical phenomenon, since the electrons do not have enough energy to move between the two states by classical means. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-explanation.html Quantum Noise and the Threshold of Hearing Excerpt: We argue that the sensitivity of the ear reaches a limit imposed by the uncertainty principle. This is possible only if the receptor cell holds the detector elements in a special nonequilibrium state which has the same noise characteristics as a ground (T=0 K) state. To accomplish this "active cooling" the molecular dynamics of the system must maintain quantum mechanical coherence over the time scale of the measurement. http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v54/i7/p725_1 QUANTUM COHERENCE AND THE RETINA - April 2011 http://www.ghuth.com/2011/04/24/quantum-coherence-and-the-retina/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ Quantum Coherence and Consciousness – Scientific Proof of ‘Mind’ – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6266865/ Particular quote of note from preceding video; “Wolf Singer Director of the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research (Frankfurt) has found evidence of simultaneous oscillations in separate areas of the cortex, accurately synchronized in phase as well as frequency. He suggests that the oscillations are synchronized from some common source, but the actual source has never been located.” James J. Hurtak, Ph.D. – Ph.D. on non-local consciousness In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. http://books.google.com/books?id=J9pON9yB8HkC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28 “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 ============ Myosin Coherence Excerpt: Quantum physics and molecular biology are two disciplines that have evolved relatively independently. However, recently a wealth of evidence has demonstrated the importance of quantum mechanics for biological systems and thus a new field of quantum biology is emerging. Living systems have mastered the making and breaking of chemical bonds, which are quantum mechanical phenomena. Absorbance of frequency specific radiation (e.g. photosynthesis and vision), conversion of chemical energy into mechanical motion (e.g. ATP cleavage) and single electron transfers through biological polymers (e.g. DNA or proteins) are all quantum mechanical effects. etc.. etc..bornagain77
July 13, 2011
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Nice article, vjtorley! I agree with a lot. Actually most of it, until I reach your "solution"
So my solution to the interaction problem is simply to say that God has made human beings with certain built-in psycho-physical correspondences between their (immaterial) mental acts of choosing to move different body parts, and the resulting movements of the various regions of the brain which govern these different body parts.
Ouch! That's not a solution! You are just back with dualism! But I think you had one almost in your grasp earlier in your post! Where I absolutly agree with you is that minds don't interact with brains, people do. Exactly! People - I , you, she - are the agents that do stuff in the world, not brains, or even minds. We don't say "I mind threw the cat off her knee and went to pour another glass of wine" I say "I did". So that locates the problem nicely - what is this thing that I call "I"? Well, that's a much more tractable question than the mind-body problem. We might call it the I-body problem. And what I call "I" is something a little bit like the things I call "you" and "him" and "her" except that I seem to have a great deal of privileged information about this "I" person that you don't have much access to, and, similarly, you, I can infer, have a great deal of privileged information to the person you call "I", that I don't have access to. Not only that, but this "I" agent seems to be able to move my own limbs very readily, whereas I can only unreliably move yours, perhaps by asking you to, or by moving my own, grabbing yours, and physically moving it. What's more, this "I" person - this agent I refer to as "I" is able both to react to external stimuli, and to modify her (my!) responses in the light of her (my!) own goals. So that's another attribute of "I" - I have "goals" - I am not merely the plaything of external stimuli. Just as you can refuse to move your limb when I ask you to, I can refuse to move mine. In other words, both "you" and "I" are free - our actions (the ones we call "our own" are at least partially independent of external stimuli. So how free are we? Well, I seem to be able to refuse to move my leg when you tell me to move it, but what if you bang my knee with a patella hammer? This thing I call "I" seems to be unable to do anything about that. So "I's" agency (aka "my") seems limited even with regard to certain bodily actions which seem to be contingent on external stimuli outside "my" control. Moroever, other bodily actions (falling asleep in boring afternoon meetings for example) seem also beyond "my" control, so certain "internally" generated actions seem to be outside "I's" (aka "my") domain of control. So we are getting near to a clear description of this thing called "I": it is fairly free to choose actions independently of external input, with some exceptions; it is also fairly free to choose actions independently of certain internal input, again, with some exceptions. So it has considerable, but not infinite, autonomy. It also has privileged access to certain information - I can see things from my desk that you cannot see from yours, and vice versa. It can also "bring to mind" things that you cannot "bring to mind" (this is where mind fits in, you see!) that you cannot, or only partially, or from a different (both literal and metaphorical) Point of View. It can also consider, when making a decision, all kinds of internallly generated goals, as well as externally imposed goals, and balance them against each other. So yes, I agree - minds do not interact with brains, but people - "I" being one of them - most certainly do! And "I" seem to have a fair degree (number of degrees!) of freedom! Specifically, freedom from certain internal and external constraints that nonetheless constrain some of my actions. I, in other words, am the decision-maker responsible for my actions; or, to turn it round: the agent responsible for the actions for which I am prepared to take responsibility is the thing I call "I". And, to paraphrase Dennett (again!) - the more responsibility I accept for my actions, the larger I make myself - the act of taking moral responsibility is, literally, a "self-forming act". And, conversely, if we minimise our responsibility, if we blame our genes, our brains, our upbringing, our life for our actions, then, while we let ourselves off the hook, we also define ourselves out of existence. Karma :) Anyway, nice OP. One of my favorite subjects! (I did my PhD in a motor control lab!)Elizabeth Liddle
July 13, 2011
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Just an initial thought. I will probably come back with more once I have time to read the whole post and digest it, but I don't really like the whole phrase "interaction problem". It it perfectly reasonable to ask questions about how a non physical mind can interact with the physical world, but I am not sure it rises to the level of a "problem". More of a question to investigate. If there is good reason to think substance dualism is true (and without an apriori commitment to some sort of physicalism I think it is clearly the inference to the best explanation) then interaction isn't a "problem". Clearly it is able to happen because it does happen. It is a worthy matter of investigation but I dont think it is actually a problem for substance dualism that the mechanism is not well understood, just like it was no problem for Mendel that the mechanism of inheritance was not understood at the time he did his work. JasonJason Rennie
July 13, 2011
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Ah ok. Well I'll look forward to your next post, but I usually think exactly the opposite of what you appear to be suggesting. Physical things have non-physical properties. I usually think that spiritual things exist in a world outside the boundaries of physical laws, and can therefore do things, such as interaction, outside of those laws.tragic mishap
July 13, 2011
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How does God do miracles?tragic mishap
July 13, 2011
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