Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
StephenB: I find no mention of the word “macro-evolution,” or “common descent” in that formulation. No, however, this thread concerns strong support for branching descent. Any competing theory has to be consistent with this finding. lifepsy: I gave you a specific example before. You seem to be echoing everything on two threads. That makes it hard to follow for readers. Please respond on one or the other thread. You might want to respond to the specifics of the toy example. If you like, we can create a simple algorithm to explore your claims, but having done many such simulations in the past, it's clear that for reasonable rates of change, it is easy to reconstruct nested hierarchies, even given the occasional reversion. lifepsy: Your example began and ended with two distinct groups. Because that's how it works. A lineage diverges, then they change for a while, then they diverge again. AAyzAxAAA AArAsAtAB ZZZjZkZZZ Let's show it in a bit more detail. The first and second populations diverge. AAyzAxAAA AAywAxAAA AArAsAtAB AArAsAtAA ZZZjZkZZZ That they diverged creates a nested hierarchy which reflects the ancestral relationship, even with the reversion. lifepsy: Branching descent does not simultaneously spawn multiple trait assemblages. That's not necessarily the case. Divergence is a process, and not usually instantaneous. Rather, collections of traits are sorted through the population. When divergence occurs, let's say one lineages pushes itself up above the water to look for prey, many traits may be involved; a flexible neck, a stronger wrist, the position of the eyes and nares. And as fossils only provide snapshots, we may find a fishapod, but not every individual event connecting the fishapod to fish and tetrapods. Indeed, the fossil will be very unlikely to be a direct ancestor of tetrapods, but will much more likely be one of many cousin lineages.Zachriel
November 9, 2014
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Zachriel
lifepsy: Branching descent does not simultaneously spawn multiple trait assemblages. Each trait must evolve sequentially. If a trait is lost then the descendent cannot nest within that trait. Not even sure what situation you are thinking about, unless it’s a population during incipient speciation. A toy example might look like this:
I gave you a specific example before. Which you avoided. If a basal vertebrate evolves away from traits that define vertebrates, then its descendent traits will not nest within vertebrates. Simple.
Notice that we can still group the first two into their proper placement, with ZZZ being the out-group.
Um, of course you can. Your example began and ended with two distinct groups. Why wouldn't you be able to distinguish them? If shared traits stay generally conserved, while new unique traits are lost shortly after they've evolved, then the descendent cannot nest within that trait, thus the nested hierarchy pattern is broken. It's as simple as that.lifepsy
November 9, 2014
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Adapta
I merely pointed out your claim ID says no barrier exists which prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution is directly contradicted by other ID proponents here.
Barrier noun noun: barrier; plural noun: barriers a fence or other obstacle that prevents movement or access. synonyms: fence, railing, barricade, hurdle, bar, blockade, roadblock "the barrier across the entrance" a circumstance or obstacle that keeps people or things apart or prevents communication or progress. "a language barrier" synonyms: obstacle, obstruction, hurdle, stumbling block, bar, block, impediment, hindrance, curb "a barrier to international trade" In arguing against Darwinian evolution, ID proponents do not argue that a "barrier" (obstacle, impediment, hindrance, or stumbling block) exists that would prevent micro-evolution from becoming macro-evolution. What they do argue is that the natural process of random variation and natural selection can produce small changes, but there is no evidence that these small changes can accumulate into macro-evolution. They do not say that a "barrier" exists (though there is nothing to prevent someone from using the word as a metaphor). They simply say that, according to the evidence time and micro changes will likely not accumulate into macro-evolution. The reason for making this distinction is to point out that the cause does not have the necessary means to produce the effect. To suggest that a real, yet undefined, barrier exists is to imply that the micro changes could have become macro changes if only some "barrier" did not get in the way. To say that a real barrier exists is also to suggest that ID is including an important factor in their argument that they didn't even bother to define. What is the barrier any reasonable person might ask? ID proponents do not make that argument. That is why KeithS's argument is so bizarre. First, he invents the existence of a barrier, then he turns right around and says that ID is being mysterious about what this barrier might be. incredible.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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From my personal experience ID arguments that present barriers (or hurdles) are useful for understanding the weaknesses of Darwinian Theory and what the Theory of Intelligent Design I'm developing needed to help explain in regards to speciation. This is the same as a group of evolutionary biologists who problem solve by sharing their personal opinions. It is scientifically unethical to cherry pick from all their personal opinions in order to fabricate an easy to argue against strawman premise, to replace the premise that already exists.Gary S. Gaulin
November 8, 2014
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Me_Think
Prominent ID proponents claim micro-evolution can’t aggregate to form macro evolution. Meyer has a whole book explaining why macro evolution can’t be a result of micro evolution aggregation.He uses explanations like Body plans, protein folds etc.
Of course. I have made that same point on this thread. I quote myself @347
There isn’t a shred of evidence to support the proposition that an unguided process of gradual changes can produce biodiversity.
and again @347
If you don’t understand the difference in scale and complexity between increasing the size of a bird’s beak and transforming one body plan into another again and again, then I cannot help you.
There is no evidence to support the proposition micro-evolution and time will provide macro-evolution. ID proponents That is not at all the same thing as saying that ID's paradigms are not compatible with macro-evolution. There is no ID initiated barrier to macro-evolution. ID's design detection methodologies do even address the subject. That doesn't prevent ID proponents from exposing Darwinism's unjustified claim that micro-evolution can become macro-evolution given enough time.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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Stefen B @366
You are the person who claimed that ID creates a barrier to macro-evolution (mindlessly following KeithS). You are the person who accused me of trying to camouflage my “error.”
Although Question is for Adapa,I will give my opinion - I am surprised by your ID stand. Prominent ID proponents claim micro-evolution can't aggregate to form macro evolution. Meyer has a whole book explaining why macro evolution can't be a result of micro evolution aggregation.He uses explanations like Body plans, protein folds etc.Me_Think
November 8, 2014
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I had no problem understanding what Stephen was saying, Adapa. Perhaps you need to be a victim, to know what your victims are experiencing?Gary S. Gaulin
November 8, 2014
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StephenB You are the person who claimed that ID creates a barrier to macro-evolution I said no such thing, please stop making false statements. I merely pointed out your claim ID says no barrier exists which prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution is directly contradicted by other ID proponents here. That you can't get your story straight is your problem, not mine.Adapa
November 8, 2014
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Close enough Steven. :DGary S. Gaulin
November 8, 2014
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Apologies to Gary S. Gaulin who I clumsily addressed as [Gary S. Gualin].StephenB
November 8, 2014
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Mung @362. Good summary. Thanks.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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Gary S. Gualin
ID protesters are again fabricating their own premise/definition.
Precisely. They don't even want to grant ID scientists the due privilege of providing their own definitions. Hence, when the ID researcher says, "here is what I mean by "X," the Darwinist response is, "No, you don't." Incredible.
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
Isn't that interesting. I find no mention of the word "macro-evolution," or "common descent" in that formulation.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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SB: What part of VJTorley’s argument do you think constitutes an ID argument?
Why don’t you ask him if he’s making an ID argument or not.
I am asking you. You are the person who claimed that ID creates a barrier to macro-evolution (mindlessly following KeithS). You are the person who accused me of trying to camouflage my "error." You are the person who said that VJTorley disagrees with me. Now you want me to bail you out? No thanks. Make your case.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy: Branching descent does not simultaneously spawn multiple trait assemblages. Each trait must evolve sequentially. If a trait is lost then the descendent cannot nest within that trait. Not even sure what situation you are thinking about, unless it’s a population during incipient speciation. A toy example might look like this: AAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAB ZZZZZZZZZ(out-group) Let’s say the B mutation is accompanied by reproductive isolation, i.e. a branch. After some time, the two lineages might look like this: AAyzAxAAA AArAsAtAB ZZZjZkZZZ Now, the B reverts, and we have this. AAyzAxAAA AArAsAtAA ZZZjZkZZZ Notice that we can still group the first two into their proper placement, with ZZZ being the out-group. Furthermore, we can easily distinguish any descendants of the second string because they will inherit the r,s,t mutations. We might even call this lineage the B-lineage for historical reasons, even though one sub-branch no longer has the B trait. With longer sequences, it’s even more obvious. This is easy to simulate algorithmically. As per your example, modern tetrapods share many traits. Even if one lineages loses the their limbs (Cetaceans), we can still discern their position within the nested hierarchy.Zachriel
November 8, 2014
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StephenB:
Actually, ID does not claim that any such barrier exists.
Yes, (although the mechanisms of "macroevolution" are not at all explained by Darwinian Theory or are fully understood by even Gene Theory) the premise for the Theory of Intelligent Design says nothing about that at all. ID protesters are again fabricating their own premise/definition. As you may already know PNAS allows it too:
From: Footprints of nonsentient design inside the human genome http://www.pnas.org/content/107/Supplement_2/8969.abstract Intelligent design (ID)—the latest incarnation of religious creationism—posits that complex biological features did not accrue gradually via natural evolutionary forces but, instead, were crafted ex nihilo by a cognitive agent.
The journal article should have been rejected (and at this point in time retracted) unless the above reads this exactly:
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
Gary S. Gaulin
November 8, 2014
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StephenB Your inability to comprehend the point is very peculiar. If your point was to cover your mistaken claim then it was fully comprehended. What part of VJTorley’s argument do you think constitutes an ID argument? Why don't you ask him if he's making an ID argument or not.Adapa
November 8, 2014
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keiths: All they can assert is that somehow there is a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution. StephenB: Actually, ID does not claim that any such barrier exists. Adapa: That’s interesting. VJtorley has a whole thread claiming that such a barrier does exist. SteohenB: The question was whether ID or its design detection methods pose barriers to macro-evolution. It doesn’t; they dont. Adapa: That wasn’t the question at all. *sigh*Mung
November 8, 2014
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Adapa
Your attempt to spin the question is very peculiar indeed.
Your inability to comprehend the point is very peculiar.
I’m also sure vjtorley will be quite surprised to learn the position he is arguing isn’t ID.
What part of VJTorley's argument do you think constitutes an ID argument?StephenB
November 8, 2014
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StephenB The question was whether ID or its design detection methods pose barriers to macro-evolution. That wasn't the question at all. Here is your exchange with KeithS again.
KeithS This is a big problem for IDers. They concede that unguided evolution can bring about microevolutionary changes, but they claim that it cannot be responsible for macroevolutionary changes. Yet they give no plausible reasons why microevolutionary changes, accumulating over a long period of time, should fail to produce macroevolutionary changes. All they can assert is that somehow there is a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution.. StephenB Actually, ID does not claim that any such barrier exists
Your attempt to spin the question is very peculiar indeed. I'm also sure vjtorley will be quite surprised to learn the position he is arguing isn't ID.Adapa
November 8, 2014
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keiths:
So we have an ID hypothesis that can’t eliminate any of the trillions of options, against an unguided evolution hypothesis that actually predicts an ONH over everything else.
ID doesn't eliminate all imaginable alternatives. That's your objection? Unguided evolution does eliminate all imaginable alternatives. That's your claim?Mung
November 8, 2014
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SB: Actually, ID does not claim that any such barrier exists. ADapa
That’s interesting. VJtorley has a whole thread claiming that such a barrier does exist. Barriers to macroevolution: what the proteins say Who are we to believe?
The question was whether ID or its design detection methods pose barriers to macro-evolution. It doesn't; they dont. That doesn't prevent VJTorely from using other methods to find barriers to macro-evolution.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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Zachriel
You seem to think that phylogeny is based on single characteristics. Rather, scientists look at multiple traits.
Branching descent does not simultaneously spawn multiple trait assemblages. Each trait must evolve sequentially. If a trait is lost then the descendent cannot nest within that trait. Simple logic.lifepsy
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy: If identifiable vertebrate traits are lost then so is the signal that groups the organism in vertebrates. You seem to think that phylogeny is based on single characteristics. Rather, scientists look at multiple traits. See Darwin 1859. A simple example is tetrapods. Cetaceans are considered tetrapods because they derive from vertebrates that first walked on land on four legs. Notably, embryonic cetaceans have four limb buds, but their classification depends on far more than just the existence of embryonic limb buds.Zachriel
November 8, 2014
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Zachriel is unable to form a cogent rebuttal.lifepsy
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy: Example: If identifiable vertebrate traits are lost then so is the signal that groups the organism in vertebrates. This obviously becomes a problem if vertebrates begin “evolving” away from vertebrate traits shortly after they obtain them. Darwin: “It is incredible that the descendants of two organisms, which had originally differed in a marked manner, should ever afterwards converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation.”Zachriel
November 8, 2014
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Zachriel Interesting that you quoted me on everything except what I bolded for you. Here it is again in case you missed it. I'm trying to help you out here. Example: If identifiable vertebrate traits are lost then so is the signal that groups the organism in vertebrates. This obviously becomes a problem if vertebrates begin “evolving” away from vertebrate traits shortly after they obtain them. Zachriel's denial notwithstanding, it's quite clear to see how easily a branching order could potentially produce a non-nested hierarchy pattern of traits.lifepsy
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy: I wasn’t claiming cetaceans do not fall into a nested hierarchy but was using their alleged rate of change as a reference point. That's right. You provided an example which contradicted your position. lifepsy: If the traits that define a group undergo rapid loss and/or reversals then voila, that group’s nested hierarchy signal thereafter has been masked. That's correct. However, we know the rate of mutation is low compared to the number of possible traits. Cetaceans are a good example. They have fins like fish, but a close look reveals their affinity to mammals, not fish. Again, this subject was discussed by Darwin back in the nineteenth century. "It is incredible that the descendants of two organisms, which had originally differed in a marked manner, should ever afterwards converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation." lifepsy: Again you must appeal to some mystical notion of immutability that preserves basal traits as the nested hierarchy is gradually pieced together. Turns out we have actual evidence of the nested hierarchy. You provided an excellent example. Cetaceans went through rapid change, but not enough to cloud their essential mammalian ancestry. lifepsy: However the conclusion is that Evolution/branching descent, does not necessarily predict a nested hierarchy pattern. As we pointed out, there is a statistical relationship between the expected nested hierarchy and rates of change.Zachriel
November 8, 2014
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Adapa:
Who are we to believe?
The premise/definition has no moving goalposts: The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Hopefully you know what a "premise" is.Gary S. Gaulin
November 8, 2014
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StephenB KeithS All they can assert is that somehow there is a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution. Actually, ID does not claim that any such barrier exists. That's interesting. VJtorley has a whole thread claiming that such a barrier does exist. Barriers to macroevolution: what the proteins say Who are we to believe?Adapa
November 8, 2014
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KeithS
All they can assert is that somehow there is a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution.
Actually, ID does not claim that any such barrier exists. The point is that there is nothing in the cause that could reasonably be expected to produce the effect.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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