Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
Folks, Don't make Vishnu's mistake. If you think you have a whiz-bang refutation of my argument, pause and ask yourself this question: Could my whiz-bang defense of ID be used equally well to defend the Rain Fairy hypothesis? If the answer is yes, you've got a problem -- unless you are willing to convert to Rain Fairyism.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
07:28 PM
7
07
28
PM
PDT
Vishnu, with a slight alteration:
The Rain Fairy neither predicts the actual weather nor its opposite. The Rain Fairy hypothesis is perfectly consistent with the actual weather or its opposite. As it has been pointed out to you over and over, the “trillions of possibilities” for the Rain Fairy is a non-scientific conjecture. Interesting religious question, but non-scientific. Therefore, worthless in any sort scientific argument.
Praise be to the Rain Fairy! Modern meteorology is dead, and the Rain Fairy hypothesis triumphs!
Your “bomb” remains a dud.
Think again.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
07:26 PM
7
07
26
PM
PDT
Keiths,
"12. If we take that approach and assume, temporarily and for the sake of argument alone, that the designer is responsible for the diversity of life, we can see that ID does does not predict an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities."
What I mean to say is: how can we "see" this any better if we assume the premise, since ID makes no predictions at all regarding an ONH? The premise is unnecessary. The conclusion is irrelevant. I would tend to agree that evolutionary, niche filling processes would tend to build nested hierarchies. However does this obviate an intelligent design of the system?Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
07:20 PM
7
07
20
PM
PDT
Zachriel: I am curious. Do you agree with keiths "bomb" and Rain Fairy arguments?Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
07:13 PM
7
07
13
PM
PDT
If you don’t learn the difference between a nested hierarchy and an objective nested hierarchy, you’ll remain hopelessly confused about what’s being discussed here.
I understand it. And as I indicated to Zachriel, I accept it, except for one caveat.
Read Theobald. He explains it quite nicely.
I did. And I do have criticisms. Let me ask you: does Theobald himself agree with this non-scientific utterance of yours: "12. If we take that approach and assume, temporarily and for the sake of argument alone, that the designer is responsible for the diversity of life, we can see that ID does does not predict an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities." ? How can we "see" that? ID neither predicts the ONH or the lack of it. ID is perfectly consistent with the ONH or its opposite. As it has been pointed out to you over and over, the "trillions of possibilities" for the designer is a non-scientific conjecture. Interesting religious question, but non-scientific. Therefore, worthless in any sort scientific argument. Your "bomb" remains a dud.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
07:07 PM
7
07
07
PM
PDT
OK, so Edward goes on the list of people afraid to take the challenge. Box:
Keith, can you at least acknowledge that there is a striking difference between life and the weather? If you cannot, then there is no sense in debating with you.
There are plenty of differences between life and the weather, but that's not my question. I asked:
Box, The challenge is open to you, as well. If you think the Rain Fairy hypothesis is ridiculous, as the rest of us do, then explain clearly and precisely what the relevant differences are between the Rain Fairy hypothesis and the ID hypothesis. I say that they use the same flawed logic. If you disagree, show precisely how they differ.
Take the challenge, Box! It's just four harmless questions plus an explanation.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:43 PM
6
06
43
PM
PDT
Or put differently, surely keiths doesn't think that stochastic elements in earth's weather systems are evidence that earth's weather processes are completely unguided.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:35 PM
6
06
35
PM
PDT
Of course, the earth's weather system might very well be designed processes that operate along certain lines, harnessing and exploiting stochastic elements, as I think biological life is. Certainly keiths doesn't think earth's weather is completely random. Keiths just keeps getting bizarrer and bizarrer in his defense of the indefensible.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:34 PM
6
06
34
PM
PDT
Keith: So for you, the Rain Fairy is a live hypothesis? After all, we can’t prove that the weather is unguided. Good grief, null. You might want to give this some more thought.
Keith, can you at least acknowledge that there is a striking difference between life and the weather? If you cannot, then there is no sense in debating with you.Box
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
After much pondering and thought here is my most humble answer to the four questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRjQDrDnY8 EdEdward
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:23 PM
6
06
23
PM
PDT
Zachriel #22: The diagram of the Cambrian Explosion is consistent with a branching process.
Zachriel, this is all you have said about the Cambrian Explosion; as far as I can see. Would you expand on that, please? Are we talking about a top-down branching process?Box
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:14 PM
6
06
14
PM
PDT
nullasalus:
You are proposing a fairy hypothesis: ‘The mindless fairy magically orchestrates nature, and it just so happens that nature results in all manner of things, some of which are living structures, microevolutionary successes, macroevolutionary successes, and more.’ Your fairy has never been observed, tested for or discovered by science – because it’s not a scientific posit to being with.
That's a bizarre assertion. Do you actually believe that microevolution requires Designer internvention?
Which is why I keep asking you to provide the scientific evidence, the peer-reviewed research/experiment, that demonstrates that even microevolution – or anything else, for that matter – is ‘unguided’.
So for you, the Rain Fairy is a live hypothesis? After all, we can't prove that the weather is unguided. Good grief, null. You might want to give this some more thought.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:13 PM
6
06
13
PM
PDT
StephenB, Why are you afraid to take the challenge? All you have to do is answer the four questions by indicating who has the better theory, Bob or his friend. Then, if your answers differ, you need to explain exactly why. That's all.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
06:00 PM
6
06
00
PM
PDT
Zachriel: Vishnu: This rate of change is more than enough to potentially mask the signal of nested traits in the event of sufficient trait losses/reversals/convergences, etc.
I didn't say that, lifepsy did.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
05:58 PM
5
05
58
PM
PDT
Zachriel
No. While we tend to think of the changes as large, they mostly affect only gross morphological structures. They are still mammals, from chemistry to organ function. This is especially evident during embryonic development.
Nowhere did I suggest they are not mammals. You have a habit of completely avoiding the point. Try again.lifepsy
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
05:43 PM
5
05
43
PM
PDT
Vishnu: Automobiles can be classified in a nested hierarchy. Automobiles can be rationally classified in nested hierarchies in many different ways. With organisms, there is only a single rational nested hierarchy. Vishnu: So then you consider horizontally gene transfer to be a cross? That's right. However, even with horizontal gene transfer, convergence, and hybridization we can still discern a strong signal of the nested hierarchy across most taxa. Darwin wasn't aware of genes, but he was well aware of the latter two mechanisms, and discussed them in detail and their relationship to the nested hierarchy in "Origin of Species". Vishnu: This rate of change is more than enough to potentially mask the signal of nested traits in the event of sufficient trait losses/reversals/convergences, etc. No. While we tend to think of the changes as large, they mostly affect only gross morphological structures. They are still mammals, from chemistry to organ function. This is especially evident during embryonic development.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
05:25 PM
5
05
25
PM
PDT
Okay, we can add Phinehas to the list of people scared to tackle the challenge.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
Kairosfocus, That applies to you, too.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
05:07 PM
5
05
07
PM
PDT
Vishnu, from the other thread:
Let’s say I provide you with two cladograms. Both cladograms are nested hierarchies. One cladogram comes from a biology textbook. The other cladogram comes from an intelligently designed random cladogram generator. Do you think you will be able to tell which is which? Are you up for it?
The fact that you would suggest this tells me that you have no idea what I am arguing. My impression is confirmed by your exchange with Zachriel above. If you don't learn the difference between a nested hierarchy and an objective nested hierarchy, you'll remain hopelessly confused about what's being discussed here. Read Theobald. He explains it quite nicely.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
05:05 PM
5
05
05
PM
PDT
Zachriel
Lifepsy: No, there are no special conditions. According to your own theory, it is all up to blind chance and selection pressures on what pace and direction through morphospace character traits will travel, and whether they will amplify a nested hierarchy signal, or progressively mask it. It’s largely due to the statistics involved, a large number of possible traits, and a slow mutation rate, both of which are observed.
According to your beliefs you have small, fully terrestrial deer-like creatures transforming into a fully aquatic whale-like creature in roughly 10-15 million years. This rate of change is more than enough to potentially mask the signal of nested traits in the event of sufficient trait losses/reversals/convergences, etc. If such a scenario is occurring regularly at branching nodes, your nested hierarchy signal is obliterated. Period.lifepsy
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
03:36 PM
3
03
36
PM
PDT
KeithS
The streambed looks like any other dry streambed in the desert. There is nothing about it that makes it look designed.
If there is no empirical evidence to suggest that anything was designed, then there is no reason for Bob to say "that every rock, pebble, grain of sand and silt particle was deliberately placed in its exact position by a Streambed Designer." He is not making an ID argument. Your objection is a strawman.
However, it might be designed. Someone with the requisite desire and capability could have arranged the rocks, pebbles, grains of sand and silt particles in such a way as to mimic the action of water.
So what? There is no evidence for or against design, so there is no reason for Bob to make a design inference. Again, this is a strawman argument.
2. It looks like there was an explosion, but someone might have carefully designed and planted the evidence to make it look that way.
There is evidence for an explosion and against the proposition that nature created the observed effects. Thus, the most reasonable inference is that an explosion occurred (by design). Even if someone planted the fake evidence, the observed effects cannot be reasonably attributed nature's operation. Are you sure you understand the design inference? It appears that you do not.
3. It looks like gravity is affecting the planetary orbits, but the angels might be pushing the planets in a way that makes it appear that gravity is operating.
What does any of this have to do with the methods of drawing an inference to design from empirical evidence?
4. The objective nested hierarchy is exactly what we would expect if unguided evolution were operating, but maybe God the Designer chose, or was limited, or just happened to produce an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities.
Your argument is self contradictory. If the objective nested hierarchy exists because God guided nature to that end, then it cannot also have been caused by an unguided process.StephenB
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
03:30 PM
3
03
30
PM
PDT
Andre #179, #180. Thank you very much for providing the information on apoptosis (pcd). Especially due to its presence in unicellular organisms makes it yet another inexplicable problem for our adversaries!Box
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
Vishnu: The historically sequenced appearance of all the objects named above is a pretty objective and non-arbitrary way of arranging them, wouldn’t you say? Z: That creates a linear sequence, not a nested hierarchy.
Automobiles can be classified in a nested hierarchy. It doesn't run too deep, but it's there. Car -> Make -> Model -> Variations in Model
In any case, we’re discussing organizing by traits.
OK
V: What entailment is being ignored? Z: If there is an artifact, then there is a causal connection between the artifact, art, and artisan.
Yes?
V: Why are you making an arbitrary distinction between natural genes and artificially created ones? Z: Artificial genes don’t share common ancestry obviously.
OK
V: What would you call it? Z: It’s a cross. Branched descent means there is exactly one path from the leaf to the root.
So then you consider horizontally gene transfer to be a cross? HGT and intelligent intervention both crosses?
V: Your assumption, I gather, is that no intelligent agency was involved in the branching. Z: That is not our assumption, nor is it an assumption of Theobald.
OK
<V: You arbitrary exclude intelligent intervention in branched descent. A branch is a branch regardless of cause. Z: That is not our assumption, nor is it an assumption of Theobald. The finding is that branched descent is *intrinsic*. This does provide the historical context necessary to understand the mechanisms which shape the tree, but that is not part of Theobald.
Do you think the mechanisms rule out intelligent intervention? Right, off topic.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT
keiths:
The challenge is open to you, too. Are you feeling brave today?
I'm feeling sufficiently brave, and quite bored, but not nearly bored enough to address something that breaks down to, "Is design a good explanation for something that gives no evidence whatsoever of having been designed?"Phinehas
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
lifepsy: No, there are no special conditions. According to your own theory, it is all up to blind chance and selection pressures on what pace and direction through morphospace character traits will travel, and whether they will amplify a nested hierarchy signal, or progressively mask it. It's largely due to the statistics involved, a large number of possible traits, and a slow mutation rate, both of which are observed. lifepsy: You and Zachriel apparently hold some mystical idea about natural selection having predisposition towards and subsequent immutability of specific character trait assemblages, i.e. evolutionary destinies. Actually, as Darwin pointed out, natural selection often clouds the nested hierarchy. Non-adaptive traits are often better for discerning evolutionary relationships. lifepsy: Well duh… those “evolutionary” processes are observed in a relatively instantaneous timespan. Give them half a billion years and the ONH signal could be obliterated. The historical rate of change is low compared to the timescales involved. Vishnu: The historically sequenced appearance of all the objects named above is a pretty objective and non-arbitrary way of arranging them, wouldn’t you say? That creates a linear sequence, not a nested hierarchy. In any case, we're discussing organizing by traits. Vishnu: What entailment is being ignored? If there is an artifact, then there is a causal connection between the artifact, art, and artisan. Vishnu: Why are you making an arbitrary distinction between natural genes and artificially created ones? Artificial genes don't share common ancestry obviously. Vishnu: What would you call it? It's a cross. Branched descent means there is exactly one path from the leaf to the root. Vishnu: Given your definition of “branched descent” that arbitrarily disallows artificial genes being inserted by intelligent entities at a point of branching, how do you know they they branched from a common ancestor? See Theobald 2010. Vishnu: Your assumption, I gather, is that no intelligent agency was involved in the branching. That is not our assumption, nor is it an assumption of Theobald. Vishnu: You arbitrary exclude intelligent intervention in branched descent. A branch is a branch regardless of cause. That is not our assumption, nor is it an assumption of Theobald. The finding is that branched descent is *intrinsic*. This does provide the historical context necessary to understand the mechanisms which shape the tree, but that is not part of Theobald. IDers often try to play both sides of this issue, as if common ancestry is of no importance, when, in fact, it is a fundamental finding of biology, and provides the framework for any discussion of life's history on Earth.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT
keiths:...the problem is that there are no sound evidential reasons to infer God the Designer, either.
Says you. I disagree. I mention a few: 1. Origin of Life 2. Coded information 3. Protein families 4. Cambrian Explosion 5. Fine Tuned Universe Just to name a few. Big subjects all. There are sound empirical reasons for inferring design. It's a live issue amongst some very intelligent people. (I'm not at all interested in the fact that you disagree. I would bet dollars to donuts that your reasoning is just as tortured with respect to those subjects as they have been to the ones submitted here. But whatever.) Poor girl, the Rain Fairy has nothing going for her. Nothing at all. She's not a live issue.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
Phinehas,
Even the most ardent IDCritic will admit that life looks like it was designed.
Only superficially. If you look carefully at the scientific evidence, ID is a losing proposition, as my argument demonstrates. The challenge is open to you, too. Are you feeling brave today?keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
01:56 PM
1
01
56
PM
PDT
keiths:
You’re making this harder than it needs to be. The streambed looks like any other dry streambed in the desert. There is nothing about it that makes it look designed.
So what does this have to do with life? Even the most ardent IDCritic will admit that life looks like it was designed. So, you argument appears to be: Take something that has absolutely no evidence of having the smallest iota of design involved, has zero real information content, and that would trivially fail the design explanatory filter. Now, is design a better theory for its existence? Um, no. What's your point again?Phinehas
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
01:51 PM
1
01
51
PM
PDT
Box, The challenge is open to you, as well. If you think the Rain Fairy hypothesis is ridiculous, as the rest of us do, then explain clearly and precisely what the relevant differences are between the Rain Fairy hypothesis and the ID hypothesis. I say that they use the same flawed logic. If you disagree, show precisely how they differ.keith s
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
01:51 PM
1
01
51
PM
PDT
Vishnu: Some of them do. Airplanes, trains, automobiles, computers, musical instruments, textiles, clothing styles, architecture, just to name a few. Zachriel: While anything can be arranged in a nested hierarchy, none of those form an objective nested hierarchy. There are multiple, equally rational ways to classify them. Try it with automobiles.
The historically sequenced appearance of all the objects named above is a pretty objective and non-arbitrary way of arranging them, wouldn't you say? If not, why not?
Vishnu: ID (as I understand it) is about inferring to the best explanation, not discovering the options, capabilities and motives of the designer. Zachriel: Ignoring the obvious entailment isn’t scientifically constructive.
What entailment is being ignored?
V: Which [creationist ideas] do you have in mind? Z: Any that don’t include common ancestry.
I agree, with the previously explained caveat.
V: Would you say that a genetically modified (by humans) soy plant has the same “ancestry” as its non-GMO progenitor? Z: If the genes are natural, then they share a common ancestry...
Why are you making an arbitrary distinction between natural genes and artificially created ones?
...but it’s not branched descent.
What would you call it?
V: While simians and sunflowers may share a common progenitor, the source of the divergences is largely unknown, which makes “ancestor” a bit misleading, IMO. Z: They branched from a common ancestor.
Given your definition of "branched descent" that arbitrarily disallows artificial genes being inserted by intelligent entities at a point of branching, how do you know they they branched from a common ancestor?
V: I can deal with it, but I think it shows a bias which is based on an assumption not in evidence. Z: It’s exactly what is in evidence. See Theobald 2010.
No. Your assumption, I gather, is that no intelligent agency was involved in the branching. That is a "fact" not in evidence, as Theobald himself acknowledges.
V: I have no problem with that. Except for the term “ancestry.” Z: That’s what branching means.
You arbitrary exclude intelligent intervention in branched descent. A branch is a branch regardless of cause.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
November
11
Nov
7
07
2014
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 14

Leave a Reply