Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why Not Accept the Fossil Record at Face Value Instead of Imposing a Theory on it?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In a comment to a prior post Johhnnyb makes the following excellent points (see here):

One thing which I think ID can contribute to any historical aspect of earth history is shaving off hypothetical creatures. While there are certainly many creatures which haven’t yet been found, and I’m sure many of these creatures include chimeras of existing features in existing creatures, there is no reason to believe that there must be creatures where none have been found or evidenced. Darwinism has a bad habit of perpetually adding dashed lines in-between creatures for where it expects to find relationships. Instead, ID says that, perhap we can just take the fossil record as we find it. Perhaps what we need to be doing is measuring, say, the average known time fossils go missing from the fossil record, and use that plus statistical completeness estimates to estimate the error bounds of the fossil record. Instead, Darwinists will substitute a narration of what they think happened in the past to substitute for 99% of earth history, rather than simply looking at what’s there.

 Here’s a simple example – extinction estimates. Darwinists will say that 99.99% of species that have ever lived have gone extinct. Well, that’s actually a bunch of B.S. There are roughly 250,000 species that have been identified in the fossil record, and well over 1,000,000 species that exist today. Taken at face value, even if every species in the fossil record has gone extinct (which they haven’t), that means that 80% of species that ever existed ARE STILL ALIVE.  That’s quite a stretch. So where do Darwinists get their number? By assuming that innumerable species existed in the transitional spaces. Why? Because they _must_ have existed there for their theory to be true.

 ID says that Darwinism is simply an unnecessary hypothesis. We should take the fossil record as it comes to us, measure its completeness on its own terms, and determine its limits as we can determine apart from Darwinism. After doing so, we might find certain features of the fossil record to be consistent with Darwinism, or we might not. The problem is that the Darwinists distort what they see to fit into their picture of Darwinism. There are also a set of Silurian trackways which were thought to be arthropods…why? Because it was thought that tetrapods hadn’t existed yet. Basically, Darwinism has been forcing the way in which we view the fossil record and earth history. When it is in conflict with the data, over and over again, the data gets modified to fit with Darwinism. ID makes a clean break with the Darwinistic picture, and would allow us to take the animal distributions within the fossil record much more on its own terms.

Comments
Seversky:
The fact is, if Intelligent Design wants parity with the theory of evolution in terms of scientific credibility then it must be prepared to meet the same burdens of evidence.
Except that there isn't any evidence the diversity of life arose via an accumulation of genetic accidents. What success did the Tiktaalik fossils bring? It seems it didn't bring any at all. Ya see there is this new find that demonstrates Tiktaalik wasn't anything special at all.Joseph
January 14, 2010
January
01
Jan
14
14
2010
04:27 AM
4
04
27
AM
PDT
Seversky:
If, on the other hand, you allow the claim that all design can be identified, regardless of origin, then you must explain why ID should be excused the “pathetic level of detail” in its accounts which is nonetheless demanded of evolutionary theory.
Your position says that blind and undirected processes can account for living organisms and their diversity. Therefor you need to demonstrate that. With ID the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific processes used- in the absence of direct observation or designer input- is by studying the design in question. IOW we can demonstrate that intelligent agencies can put together irreducibly complex machines and produce CSI. We have direct observation and a vast amount of experience with that. However no one has ever observed blind and undirected processes doing that. As for analogies- evos are just upset because their position doesn't have any. They cannot look at the left-overs from a tornado and claim "See that is what blind and undirected processes can do" and have it correlate to anything in biology other than disease and death.Joseph
January 14, 2010
January
01
Jan
14
14
2010
04:25 AM
4
04
25
AM
PDT
Lenoxus:
Whenever IDers discuss the possibility of investigating the designer as a scientific phenomonon restricted by rules of some sort, it gives a pleasurable chill up my spine.
ID is about the DESIGN not the designer. That said seeing you spew your ignorance on this blog sends a pleasurable chill up my spine...Joseph
January 14, 2010
January
01
Jan
14
14
2010
04:18 AM
4
04
18
AM
PDT
Seversky, It's unreasonable because you are demanding that Intelligent Design have all the answers before they can claim to have some of the answers. It would be like forcing Darwin to explain everything about evolution that presented a problem to him (like the eye) before his theory could even be considered. That would be unfair right? Then why do it to ID?Collin
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
07:47 PM
7
07
47
PM
PDT
vjtorley @ 69
On the supposition that life was designed by a superior intelligence, asking for an MO is unreasonable. Asking for scientific criteria for deciding which patterns in nature are designed, on the other hand, is perfectly reasonable. That is what ID is about.
Why is it unreasonable? Is it because the designs of a superior intelligence might be unrecognizable to us? Is it because they might be beyond our powers to detect? If that is your argument then you are denying a fundamental claim of Intelligent Design which is that it is possible to reliably identify design, regardless of the nature of the designer. If, on the other hand, you allow the claim that all design can be identified, regardless of origin, then you must explain why ID should be excused the "pathetic level of detail" in its accounts which is nonetheless demanded of evolutionary theory.
Arguments by analogy are, as Dr. MacNeill correctly points out, highly suspect. But as Dr. Stephen Meyer pointed out eight years ago, the case for ID does not rest on an argument from analogy:
Yet he attempts the same old argument from analogy which fails for the same old reasons. The only difference is that he tries to evade accusations of feeble analogising by arguing that they do not apply at anything less than the level of whole organisms and machines. Comparing DNA and computer software and their capacity for carrying information is not a true analogy. To illustrate the weakness of this argument we can indulge in a little late seasonal analogising ourselves. Suppose someone were to point out the remarkable similarities between artificial and real Christmas trees. They have the same roughly conical shape with brown trunks from which sprout many branches bearing needle-like leaves. In particular, both are colored a strong and distinctive green. Our astute observer notes that, in all cases of the artificial trees, the green color is the product of intelligent design in the form of a synthetic pigment or dye applied during manufacture. From that the observer infers that the green color of the natural trees could well be evidence that an intelligent agent was involved in the creation of the natural trees as well. What this analogy ignores, of course, are the many differences between the artificial and natural trees. In the particular case of the green coloration, we know that, in the natural trees, it is produced by the presence of a chemical called chlorophyll. While in the artificial trees the only purpose of the pigment is to color them green, in the natural trees, the color is simply a byproduct of the fact that chlorophyll absorbs mostly red and blue wavelengths. Taking the analogy further, if our observer were called, say, Meyer, he might argue that the function of the chlorophyll in the natural plant is irrelevant. What counts is that both clearly contain green-ness. Unfortunately, this brings us to another problem with Meyer's case. In the case of the Christmas trees the green color is not actually a property of either the natural or the artificial versions. Both reflect of certain wavelengths but the green color is the way those wavelengths are represented by our visual system in our mental models of the world outside us. In other words, the perceived color is a property of the model not of the thing being modeled. There is a school of thought, admittedly a minority, which holds that the same is true of information, that it is not a property of something like DNA but a property of the mental models we use to represent and manipulate the concept internally. I have cited the Australian philosopher John Wilkins as an exponent of this view a number of times before although I have not seen the argument addressed here in detail. Based on the passages from Meyer's book quoted here and on critiques of his work - such as the most recent from Jeffrey Shallit on his blog Recursivity - it would appear his case is vulnerable to attack along a number of lines.
As long as evolutionary biologists are unable to provide a model which (at least roughly) quantifies the probability of complex life forms evolving by undirected processes, which should we treat their speculations as science?
For the simple reason that the soundness of a scientific theory is not decided solely by probability estimates. For example, another litmus test is its capacity for prediction and in this, as we know, evolution scored a spectacular success with the discovery of the Tiktaalik fossils. The fact is, if Intelligent Design wants parity with the theory of evolution in terms of scientific credibility then it must be prepared to meet the same burdens of evidence. It must show that there is compelling evidence of non-human design to be observed in the structure of living things. On the basis of that evidence, it should infer as detailed a description as possible of the nature of the designer and it should propose a detailed and testable account of how the putative non-human designer executed its designs. Until that time, however much ID tries to minimize the amount and significance of the evidence for the theory of evolution, it will still far outweigh that which exists to support its would-be rival.Seversky
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
07:33 PM
7
07
33
PM
PDT
Cabal, I think you are being purposely difficult. Who said that no laboratories were used? Who cares? I suppose I care only to the extent that I'm curious how He did it (or She or it or they, whatever). But I agree with VJtorley. Any Roman or Sumerian would think us gods for what we can do with our technology.Collin
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
Whenever IDers discuss the possibility of investigating the designer as a scientific phenomonon restricted by rules of some sort, it gives a pleasurable chill up my spine. It is always useful to remember that Hamlet quote — or its Tom Weller version, "There are more things in heaven and earth than anyplace else!"Lenoxus
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
Cabal (#71) Is magic an option? Well, what would you call this ? Both of us would have described the feat as magic a few years ago, had anyone suggested the idea to us. OK, you say, but no laws of physics were violated. I'm reminded of a conversation I had a decade ago with a very talented software designer. He'd never been to university, but he was great at his job. Anyway, one day he mentioned that he believed humans would break the speed of light barrier in the future. Many people had ridiculed him for saying that, but his reasoning was interesting. Humans had broken every other barrier in the past, he said, and the pace of technological change was increasing all the time. So it would be irrational to suppose that we will never break the speed of light barrier. And sure enough, some scientists are already dreamimg up ways in which it might be done. So when you scoff at the idea of a Designer not using "methods within the realm of physics/chemistry," I have to ask: whose physics are you talking about? The physics you and I know, in the early 21st century, or the physics known to the Author of Nature, who is perfectly capable of designing life-forms (if He wishes to) without breaking any laws of physics?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet, Act 1, scene 5, 159–167.
vjtorley
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
06:47 AM
6
06
47
AM
PDT
Cabal, Is magic an option for design engineers?Joseph
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
04:23 AM
4
04
23
AM
PDT
To Allen MacNeill in 65, I answered that- the Creationists' definition of macroevolution- in comment 59.Joseph
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
04:16 AM
4
04
16
AM
PDT
Lenoxus, There isn't any genetic data which demonstrates the transformation required (to go from knuckle-walker to man) are even possible. There isn't any way to test it. As for nested hierarchy we shouldn't see one if descent with modification were true for the many reasons already provided.Joseph
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
04:14 AM
4
04
14
AM
PDT
Allen MacNeill:
Please state what the definition of macroevolution used by evolutionary biologists is, and then explain (citing evidence) why it is useless.
Why don't you cite it and tell us why it is useful? But I digress:
In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species.
This one is useless because "species" is an ambiguous concept. It is also useless because no one debates speciation- meaning by that definition YECs accept macro-evolution.Joseph
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
04:10 AM
4
04
10
AM
PDT
Allen MacNeill:
Please state what the definition of macroevolution used by evolutionary biologists is, and then explain (citing evidence) why it is useless.
Why don't you cite it and tell us why it is useful? But I digress:
In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species.
This one is useless because "species" is an ambiguous concept. It is also useless because no one debates speciation- meaning by that definition YECs accept macro-evolution.Joseph
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
04:10 AM
4
04
10
AM
PDT
vjtorley,
Arthur C. Clarke’s 3rd law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. On the supposition that life was designed by a superior intelligence, asking for an MO is unreasonable.
I haven't heard that Clarke's 3rd law has been 'ratified' yet. Is there any reason to believe - belief is all that it amounts to, that a 'superior intelligence' somehow would be capable of not only designing, but also implement, manufacture his designs without using methods within the realm of physics/chemistry, laboratories, apparatus, machinery and so on? A look at what are in use by us mere mortals today may perhaps give a clue? Or is msgic an option?Cabal
January 13, 2010
January
01
Jan
13
13
2010
12:57 AM
12
12
57
AM
PDT
Mr Vjtorley, Prof Hsu: There is an interesting coincidence at work: 5 Gyr is remarkably close to the 10 Gyr lifetime of main sequence stars (and to the 14 Gyr age of the universe). This is unexpected, as evolution proceeds by molecular processes and natural selection among complex organisms, whereas stellar lifetimes are determined by nuclear physics. It takes a special kind of perspective to see 5 billion years as 'remarkably close' to 10 billion years. :) I'd happily agree that there are not the necessary probabilistic resources available for a base by base sequence of substitutions, insertions and/or deletions to take us from bacteria to Bach. Everyone agrees that is a simpleminded strawman, and it is. It assumes sex does not exist. It assumes HGT, retroviral infection, gene duplication and endosymbiosis never occur. Since it is these latter processes that add hundreds and thousands of high quality, functional or nearly so sequences to a genome good estimates of how often they occur in nature would be necessary to start to answer Hsu's questions. Here's an absurd lower bound to match the absurd upper bound of a base-pair random walk. M. gentalium has about 500 genes and we have 30,000. If evolution was driven by "duplicate the whole genome, and then tinker" we are only 8 steps like that away M. gen! So the upper bound says 'not possible in the lifetime of the universe' and the lower bound says 'can be done in a week if you are willing to work overtime'. The truth is somewhere in between. Even a raw rate of occurence will not be satisfactory. Even more than 'how often' do genes duplicate, we need to know 'why' do genes duplicate. Do genomes react badly to stress? Then you need stress to drive evolution. Long periods of just filling up available niches until some limiting factor is reached would imply long periods of evolutionary stasis. I'm not saying that is a realistic cause and effect, just offering that as an example of why we need 'why' not just 'how often'.Nakashima
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
08:50 PM
8
08
50
PM
PDT
Regarding the chimpanzee 98% thing… 98 may be a big number, but it's not 100. There's a strange unspoken assumption here that if we could extract hominid DNA, we would find 98% similarity or less. The morphological data (all we really have) suggests that it would be more. Fossil chimpanzees resemble us much less than Homo Afarensis. In any case, the longer IDers continue to fight one of the best-documented evolutionary lineages — that of ourselves), skewing Neanderthals as merely sick Homo Sapiens, the longer ID will be from being taken seriously. (I suppose the same goes with other lineages as well.) You're going to have to accept the principle of nested hierarchy of common descent OR provide a better argument against it than "We don't know anything we can't see directly, and designed things can look like common descent with nested hierarchy, too." You're going to need some pegasuses.Lenoxus
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
08:29 PM
8
08
29
PM
PDT
41 Joseph 01/12/2010 1:15 pm Zachriel:
First of all, The genus Homo has been around for 2.5 million years-
Unless of course we consider artifacts that have been dated earlier than that.
Indeed. We actually know the Taylor Trail, the MacFall Trail, the Morris Track, the Burdick Track and the Ryals Track. Joseph just goes where the evidence leads him.osteonectin
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
08:00 PM
8
08
00
PM
PDT
Allen MacNeill (#38)
That’s because the only ID “answer” to the question of how complex structural and functional adaptations came into existence is either silence or magic.
Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
On the supposition that life was designed by a superior intelligence, asking for an MO is unreasonable. Asking for scientific criteria for deciding which patterns in nature are designed, on the other hand, is perfectly reasonable. That is what ID is about. Arguments by analogy are, as Dr. MacNeill correctly points out, highly suspect. But as Dr. Stephen Meyer pointed out eight years ago, the case for ID does not rest on an argument from analogy:
[C]ontra the classical Humean objection to design, the "DNA to Design" argument does not depend upon an analogy between the features of human artifacts and living systems, still less upon a weak or illicit one. If, as Bill Gates has said, "DNA is similar to a software program" but more complex, it makes sense, on analogical grounds, to consider inferring that it too had an intelligent source. Nevertheless, while DNA is similar to a computer program, the case for its design does not depend merely upon resemblance or analogical reasoning. Classical design arguments in biology typically sought to draw analogies between whole organisms and machines based upon certain similar features that each held in common. These arguments sought to reason from similar effects back to similar causes. The status of such design arguments thus turned on the degree of similarity that actually obtained between the effects in question. Yet since even advocates of these classical arguments admitted dissimilarities as well as similarities, the status of these arguments always appeared uncertain. Advocates would argue that the similarities between organisms and machines outweighed dissimilarities. Critics would claim the opposite. The design argument from the information in DNA does not depend upon such analogical reasoning since it does not depend upon claims of similarity. As noted above, the coding regions of DNA have the very same property of "specified complexity" or "information content" that computer codes and linguistic texts do... The argument does not depend upon the similarity of DNA to a computer program or human language, but upon the presence of an identical feature ("information content" defined as "complexity and specification") in both DNA and all other designed systems, languages, or artifacts. While a computer program may be similar to DNA in many respects, and dissimilar in others, it exhibits a precise identity to DNA in its ability to store information content (as just defined). Thus, the "DNA to Design" argument does not represent an argument from analogy of the sort that Hume criticized, but an "inference to the best explanation."
FYI to readers: Here are two posts by physicist Professor Steve Hsu on a seldom acknowledged problem with the modern theory of undirected evolution: Evolutionary timescales Evolution, Design and the Fermi paradox: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=24287 While I disagree with Hsu's solution (which fails to address Dembski's probability bound), I commend the author for his intellectual integrity. As long as evolutionary biologists are unable to provide a model which (at least roughly) quantifies the probability of complex life forms evolving by undirected processes, which should we treat their speculations as science?vjtorley
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
07:03 PM
7
07
03
PM
PDT
Mr. MacNeill, It is true that ID-ers not having an explanation of how design was implemented in life is a huge stumbling block. It would be nice if they could at least find some kind of laboratory or a blueprint somewhere. Yet, it is absolutely okay to attempt to create tools and methodologies to help identify design in nature. We are on the cusp of designing life ourselves. How would we be able to differentiate between designed life and non-designed life if we ever came across it? What tools would biologists use? Behe and Dempski and others are making an honest attempt at developing those tools. But they end up getting vilified for the philosophical implications.Collin
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
05:19 PM
5
05
19
PM
PDT
In #59 joseph asserted that the definition of macroevolution used by evolutionary biologists is useless. Please state what the definition of macroevolution used by evolutionary biologists is, and then explain (citing evidence) why it is useless.Allen_MacNeill
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
05:19 PM
5
05
19
PM
PDT
Nakashima-san:
I admit to not being a master of this literature, but even Dr Denton seems to have abandoned a position against common descent and the nested hierarchy which he once held (and that Mr Joseph frequently sources for his position).
I was unaware he had a position against Common Descent. And I know he did not abandon his position against nested hierarchy. Ya see he has this essay tat came out some 6 years AFTER "Nature's Destiny" in which he explains his position. It is titled "An Anti-Darwinian Intellectual Journey"- He writes:
Evolution (A theory in Crisis) was written while I still adhered to the superwatch model of nature. Despite this, I still believe it represents one of the most convincing critiques of the assumption that the organisc world is the continuum that classical Darwinism demands.
Joseph
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
05:16 PM
5
05
16
PM
PDT
Clive Hayden in #58: Good question; you tell me.Allen_MacNeill
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
05:16 PM
5
05
16
PM
PDT
Mr Tuite, Can you point to a single publication, outside the creationist literature, that offers evidence against the observed nested hierarchy of life? I admit to not being a master of this literature, but even Dr Denton seems to have abandoned a position against common descent and the nested hierarchy which he once held (and that Mr Joseph frequently sources for his position). For example, Access Research Network had this to say: In August 1998, Denton’s eagerly-awaited second book arrived: Nature’s Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe (Free Press, 1998). Readers expecting a continuation of the arguments of Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, however, found a line of argument markedly different from the earlier book. Although much of Denton’s skepticism about neo-Darwinism remained, gone were the challenges to the theory of universal common descent--i.e., the common ancestry of all terrestrial organisms--which had made Evolution especially controversial with mainstream biologists. In their place was an unstinting advocacy of common descent, and a notion of “directed evolution” in which the historical unfolding of life on earth was “built into” the universe from the start. Emphasis mine.Nakashima
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
04:51 PM
4
04
51
PM
PDT
"That’s because the only ID “answer” to the question of how complex structural and functional adaptations came into existence is either silence or magic." Allen, why do you misrepresent things? You are supposed to be a grown up. You often supply interesting information but the whole comment about beer drinking and puffs of smoke and then misrepresenting thing is childish. If I had a couple beers around Darwinists I would pull their tails too with a lot more than a puff of smoke.jerry
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
03:55 PM
3
03
55
PM
PDT
Oops- here is the link for the Creationsts' definitions: Glossary scroll down to "evolution, biological"Joseph
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
Allen - Actually, Chris Ashcraft, the head of the Northwest Creation Network, publicly holds to both ID and macroevolution. See: http://www.nwcreation.net/evolution_creation.html Many other YECs have dropped the macro/micro distinctions because, as you point out, it is unhelpful.johnnyb
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
03:06 PM
3
03
06
PM
PDT
Michael Tuite, Are you just going to ignore the reasons why descent with modification does not expect a nested hierarchy? Are you going to ignore what Darwin said? Or are you going to continue to argue from ignorance and not support your claim?Joseph
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
03:06 PM
3
03
06
PM
PDT
Allen MacNeill:
So, if YECs have indeed accepted that speciation occurs, then they have by definition also accepted that macroevolution occurs.
They use a different definition for macro-evolution:
2) macroevolution—the theory/belief that biological population changes take (and have taken) place (typically via mutations and natural selection) on a large enough scale to produce entirely new structural features and organs, resulting in entirely new species, genera, families, orders, classes, and phyla within the biological world, by generating the requisite (new) genetic information. Many evolutionists have used “macro-evolution” and “Neo-Darwinism” as synonymous for the past 150 years.
That is because the definition used by evolutionary biologists is useless.Joseph
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
Allen_MacNeill,
But, of course, they don’t, because they don’t define macroevolution in a way that can be empirically tested nor formalized in a consistent theory. This is one of the most common logical fallacies: argument by semantic slight-of-hand (also known as a “material fallacy”).
How do they define it?Clive Hayden
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
Joseph, NEWS FLASH: Evidence against nested hierarchy of life has yet to reach actual scientists. You seem to imagine that your average biologist (neo and paleo) is far too cognitively enfeebled to get his or her pants on every morning because they don't recognize the value of your arguments against a fundamental tenet of biology. Or, do you imagine them as otherwise competent practitioners of science who fall zombie-like under the sway of their Fasco-Atheist Overlords whenever their research strays into "origins" territory? Can you point to a single publication, outside the creationist literature, that offers evidence against the observed nested hierarchy of life? MichaelMichael Tuite
January 12, 2010
January
01
Jan
12
12
2010
02:29 PM
2
02
29
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply