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Why there is no Meaning if Materialism is True

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In my last post I linked to an article in which several atheists discuss how they deal with the lack of meaning in the universe.  In response Seversky asks:

What is meant by “meaning” in this context? To me, it sounds like a purpose conceived in the mind of an intelligent being, in this case God.

So what you are saying is that unless another intelligent being has a purpose in mind for you, your existence is worthless and meaningless?

So, a question, why should you only have value or worth or meaning if it exists in the mind of another intelligence. What is wrong with finding a meaning or purpose for yourself? After all, if God has a purpose, why can’t you?

Seversky, let us assume for the moment that atheistic materialism is correct.  If that is the case, then certain facts follow as a matter of logic, including the following:

  1. The sun is an average star and only one of billions of stars in the Milky Way galaxy, which is one of the billions of galaxies in the observable universe.
  1. There is nothing – absolutely nothing – in that vast immensity but space, time, particles and energy.
  1. At first only the light elements existed. But eventually clouds of hydrogen and helium collapsed into stars, and the heavier elements were formed in the nuclear furnaces inside those stars.  All of the heavier elements we observe are remnants of burned out stars.
  1. Some of the remnants of those burned out stars eventually coalesced into a planet we call Earth, and eventually a tiny subset of those particles spontaneously turned themselves into simple self-replicators.
  1. Through the process of evolution those simple self-replicators became more and more complex until at last the most complex self-replicators of all, human beings, arose.
  1. Fundamentally, however, humans are nothing but insignificant amalgamations of burned out star stuff on an insignificant rock orbiting an insignificant star in an insignificant galaxy in an incomprehensibly vast universe.
  1. A rock does not owe moral duties to another rock. The very notion is absurd.  A rock is nothing but an amalgamation of burned out star stuff, and it is literally meaningless to say that one amalgamation of burned out star stuff owes a moral duty to another amalgamation of burned out star stuff.
  1. Nothing about that analysis changes if the amalgamation of burned out star stuff is called a human. Thus, the idea that humans owe moral duties to one another is ultimately meaningless.  In a universe in which nothing exists but particles in motion, there is no good.  There is no evil.
  1. It follows that everything we do is ultimately pointless. The amalgamation of burned out star stuff we call “Hitler” did certain things.  The amalgamation of burned out star stuff we call “Mother Teresa” did certain other things.  And what Hitler did and what Mother Teresa did are equal in the sense that they are equally pointless.

That, Seversky, is the universe you, as an atheist materialist, imagine you live in.  So let us answer your questions:

What is meant by “meaning” in this context?

By “meaning” we mean “significance within a broader context.”  There is no meaning in your universe, because nothing we do has any significance within a broader context as my Hitler/Mother Teresa example demonstrates.

So what you are saying is that unless another intelligent being has a purpose in mind for you, your existence is worthless and meaningless?

I am simply asking you to have the courage to acknowledge the logical consequences of your metaphysical assumptions.  I understand that you are terrified of those consequences and want to avert your gaze from them at all costs, including very often the cost of descending into logical absurdity.  But there they are nevertheless.

So, a question, why should you only have value or worth or meaning if it exists in the mind of another intelligence.

For there to be meaning good and evil must exist in an objective sense.  It must really be the case that what Hitler did was “evil” and that what Mother Teresa did was “good” where the words “evil” and “good” mean something beyond “that which I do not prefer” and “that which I do prefer.”

What is wrong with finding a meaning or purpose for yourself?

Because a transcendent moral code cannot be grounded in the being of an amalgamation of burned out star stuff.  Such a code can be grounded only in God’s being.  Go back and look at all of the atheist blitherings in that article I linked in my last post.  Every single one of them amounts to one of two things:  (1) I try not to think about it; or (2) I distract myself with things that amuse me.  That is not finding meaning or purpose and only a fool believes it is.

After all, if God has a purpose, why can’t you?

Because only God can impose meaning – through the objective transcendent moral code grounded in his being – on an otherwise meaningless universe.

Comments
We question meaning because meaning objectively exists. It's an intrinsic property of nature.computerist
August 13, 2015
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@UprightBiped,
Despite the false bravado, the problem for materialists is that they can’t construct a physical system to provide meaning without having meaning required in its structure. Its a real problem, just give it a try.
The answer to this is either trivial or impossible depending one what you mean by "meaning". If you embrace Barry's "square circle" version of meaning -- "objective meaning" -- then I readily grant as a materialist I cannot square a circle for you, or do anything meaningful with a contradiction in terms -- "objective meaning". If, on the other hand, you mean "meaning" in the common and practical sense -- the relationship between symbols and referents, etc. -- then your post just elicits a mild shrug. Look out the window, there's your natural system. So far as we can tell, there's no basis for thinking "meaning", or even the humans/animals or minds that reify "meaning", were required at all.eigenstate
August 13, 2015
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Are there no materialist/reductionist on this thread who can take up my challernge on #47 ? Obviously, I do not blame you for the reluctance - given that such a construction is not possible. Merely making assertions is likely a more comfortable position to take.Upright BiPed
August 13, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: I disagree that the standard is subjective. It’s something instead that is given, as part of human nature. This is a bit different than claiming there is an objective morality independent of human sensibilities, which is the most frequent claim. Humans almost universally have a moral sense, but there are significant differences in how people treat those considered part of the in-group as opposed to how they treat those in the out-group.Zachriel
August 13, 2015
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// follow-up #80 //
Eigenstate: The “I” in general has not been eliminated. The folk-psychological “I” has been falsified and superseded with a natural model.
Rosenberg keeps battering introspection:
There is no self, soul, person. Scientism must firmly deny its existence. The self, as conveyed to us by introspection, is a fiction. It doesn’t exist. Before psychological experiments began to make us realize how unreliable introspection is, few were prepared to challenge its insistence that there is a single enduring self that exists continuously throughout each life. [A.Rosenberg, ch.10]
Box
August 13, 2015
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SA @ 77 asks if I agree with the following regarding transcendent moral law (“TML”):
1. It’s something instead that is given, as part of human nature. Nobody can reject it or disagree with it.
The TML is grounded in God’s being. It is accessible to everyone as part of their nature. I am not sure what you mean by the second sentence, so I’ll do my best to respond. Can someone reject the TML? If by “reject” you mean “disagree that it exists,” the answer is yes, and people like LH do so all the time. But LH and everyone else who says they reject it is a liar. They know that self evident moral truths (a subset of the TML) exist as well as anyone else.
2. The fundamental principles of the objective moral law are as real and identifiable as water. Its properties do not change — it’s impossible for them to change.
The TML is grounded in God’s being and is therefore part of the warp and woof of the universe. It is real. It’s properties do not change, because it is grounded in God's being and it is impossible for God to change. The issue of whether the properties are identifiable is more problematic. As I wrote earlier today: As in many other areas, the ability to perceive and apply the truth is not evenly distributed. Consider mathematics. A small child can understand that 2+2=4. A teenager in high school can understand basic Algebra. A college student can understand calculus. A post-doc can understand advanced theoretical mathematics. Does the fact that the child’s understanding of the objective truths of mathematics is less than the post-docs understanding of objective truths of mathematics mean there is no such thing as objective mathematical truth? Of course not. Knowledge of OMT also falls on a continuum. Some propositions of mathematics are self-evident. Others are not. Some propositions of objective moral truth are self-evident. Others are not. For example, 2+2=4 is self evident. It really is the case that anyone who disagrees with me is just lying or insane. Killing millions of Jews, homosexuals and disabled people is evil. It really is the case that anyone who disagrees with me is just lying or insane. The further we move from the basic self evident propositions of mathematics, the more room there is for error (and thus disagreement). The same is true for the propositions of the TML.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2015
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Eigenstate #71,
Eigenstate:
Box (summarizing A. Rosenberg): “We” have been tricked in having the illusion of “We”… “We” are convinced by science that there is no “We”, but “We” continue to stick with “We”.
Right. It’s similar to free will. With the aid of scientific knowledge, we understand that our “sense of autonomy” is real enough in that we are separate organisms with cognitive process that drive many of our actions, but that we are no more of what we think and by extension how we will act than a rock is in control of how it falls down a hill.
IOW ‘we’ are not in control of our thoughts. Let’s reflect on that for a moment… If we are not in control of our thoughts, then something else is. Under materialism that 'something else' is uncomprehending non-rational physical forces. Given that, how can we trust ‘our’ thoughts?
Eigenstate: Same problem with the self. There is no dualist “self”, or something apart from the activity of our brains (our minds).
Oh yes, there certainly is.
Eigenstate: Yet we have a pervasive sense of an “inner homunculus” that persists despite our access to knowledge that this sense is illusory.
Anyway, who is having the illusion?
THE ILLUSION THAT THERE IS SOMEONE INSIDE that has thoughts about stuff is certainly as old as the illusion that there are thoughts about stuff. [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide To Reality, Ch. 10]
Box: A non-existent “I” is having the illusion of its own existence and the illusion that its thoughts are about stuff …
Eigenstate: No, I think you’re widely misunderstood Rosenberg’s point. It is not the case there is “nothing” in place of the folk-psychological “I” (…) The “I” in general has not been eliminated. The folk-psychological “I” has been falsified and superseded with a natural model.
So there is a non-folk-psychological-“I” who is having the illusion that there is someone inside AND who is having the illusion that thoughts, produced by non-rational physical forces, are about stuff?Box
August 13, 2015
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LH Thank you. I'm going to disregard my own request and just go ahead.
I’m not following either assertion. You can’t know anything without objective moral truth, or objective truth generally? If the former, why not?
Objective morals are the distinctions between good and evil. The source of these is traced to ontology, so the nature of being itself. From being we get the distinction between being and non-being, with non-being having no potential. So, goodness is an aspect of being. From that follows truth - which is an affirmation of reality and thus being and thus goodness. Truth, in itself, is an objective moral value. It is unchanging and necessary. Without truth, we couldn't have any knowledge. So, truth is a necessary, objective moral value that can be applied to various situations. An example of the impossibility to deny this is that no one can make a commitment to always tell a lie. We are required, by our nature as existent beings, capable of truth and falsehood, to accept truth, in itself, as a necessary, objective, unchanging moral value. We cannot know anything without this.Silver Asiatic
August 13, 2015
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I may have to concede his points You never have to do that! I'm not trying to argue or force anyone into agreeing with me. It's enough if you understand my position, and I think you're doing a pretty good job of that. And of course I want to understand yours, so I'm interested in hearing whatever you think, regardless of whether or not people agree with you.Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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Learned Hand Before I go ahead, I wonder if I could validate something with the others who support the Objective Moral Law (Barry, Stephen B, kariosfocus, Box and anyone else who wants ... (and thanks for your patience LH). Do you agree with these statements?
It’s something instead that is given, as part of human nature. Nobody can reject it or disagree with it. The fundamental principles of the objective moral law are as real and identifiable as water. Its properties do not change — it’s impossible for them to change.
The reason I ask is because in my view, those things are required for the moral law to be considered objective. If one or more disagree with my views stated here, then I'm not sure if I can continue the discussion with Learned Hand and I may have to concede his points, or at least retract what I said and withdraw. Thoughts please?Silver Asiatic
August 13, 2015
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That’s not one of the biggest, most basic principles from which no dissent is possible. Instead, it’s a lower level precept that requires the application of the first level principles. Thus possible disagreements. Ugh, a browser glitch killed the response I was writing. Maybe a good thing, it'll encourage me to be more succinct. Can we identify any or all of those first-level principles? I can’t know anything without it. It’s impossible to change because its moral principles are inherent in what we mean by possibility. I'm not following either assertion. You can't know anything without objective moral truth, or objective truth generally? If the former, why not? And what does "its moral principles are inherent in what we mean by possibility" mean? Can you rephrase that?Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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The homunculus fallacy does not require a homunculus. Then it has a deceitful name. I suppose deceit is “good” for eigenstate, because he values it. Does the golden rule require any gold?Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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Learned Hand
Is it wrong to kill?
That's not one of the biggest, most basic principles from which no dissent is possible. Instead, it's a lower level precept that requires the application of the first level principles. Thus possible disagreements.
How do you know that?
I can't know anything without it. It's impossible to change because its moral principles are inherent in what we mean by possibility.Silver Asiatic
August 13, 2015
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eigenstate @ 72:
The Homunculus Fallacy doesn’t require (or even suppose, so far as I’m aware) of an *actual* “little guy”.
The homunculus fallacy does not require a homunculus. Then it has a deceitful name. I suppose deceit is "good" for eigenstate, because he values it.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2015
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@Barry, The Homunculus Fallacy doesn't require (or even suppose, so far as I'm aware) of an *actual* "little guy". It's metonymy for our self of an "inner self" apart from the mind. So, if you suppose you "think outside your mind", somehow, or "choose with your free will as an immortal soul", or some such, you're committing the error here. The core of the error is the "separate me", and that comes in many immaterialist flavors as well. Far an away, the "immaterial self" apart from the natural mind is the most common example of this error, and it does not contemplate any actual (physical) "little guy" inside the mind.eigenstate
August 13, 2015
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“We” have been tricked in having the illusion of “We”… “We” are convinced by science that there is no “We”, but “We” continue to stick with “We”.
Right. It's similar to free will. With the aid of scientific knowledge, we understand that our "sense of autonomy" is real enough in that we are separate organisms with cognitive process that drive many of our actions, but that we are no more of what we think and by extension how we will act than a rock is in control of how it falls down a hill. But the perception of our own free will is strong and pervasive, so much so that it's beside the point in practical terms if it's an illusory sense we have or not: it's a fact of living as a human. Same problem with the self. There is no dualist "self", or something apart from the activity of our brains (our minds). Yet we have a pervasive sense of an "inner homunculus" that persists despite our access to knowledge that this sense is illusory. Again, in practical terms, we are "wired for the illusion" and for good evolutionary reasons. So we can make good use of "self"as we always have. It's just that now, those of us who are aware of what knowledge there is on this subject understand that while "I" and "self" perfectly meaningful and useful in a practical sense, fundamentally it's a cognitive construct without a real, discrete referent we point to with "I".
THE ILLUSION THAT THERE IS SOMEONE INSIDE that has thoughts about stuff is certainly as old as the illusion that there are thoughts about stuff. [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide To Reality, Ch. 10]
A non-existent “I” is having the illusion of its own existence and the illusion that its thoughts are about stuff …
No, I think you're widely misunderstood Rosenberg's point. It is not the case there is "nothing" in place of the folk-psychological "I", the intuitive tendency toward the Homunculus Fallacy. Rather, humans are the "I", but it's just the activity of physical brain. Rosenberg and others would be wise, if not fatigued, to consistent clarify this point: when we say "there is no I", it should be clarified "there is no I in the sense people traditionally and overwhelming conceive of it". That's important, because there is a human with cognitive processes in view, that has these misconceptions, useful they may be. The "I" in general has not been eliminated. The folk-psychological "I" has been falsified and superseded with a natural model.eigenstate
August 13, 2015
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eigenstate @ 68:
Unless you are committed to the Homunculus Fallacy, the *I* in ‘we’ is the mind.
eigenstate prefers to be committed to the "false dichotomy" fallacy. The particular false dichotomy to which he appears to be committed is: There are two and only two mutually exclusive alternatives: (1) eliminative materialism is true; or (2) there is a tiny little guy in each of our heads (called a homunculus) who controls our actions. Idiot.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2015
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@StephenB,
Do you think that air has value? Do you think that water has value?
These things, like all things, have whatever value people assign to it. Both as natural resources get some value assigned, as they are required for daily living. They aren't in short supply (yet), but to the extent they become so, they would get increasing more value assigned, a simply function of supply and demand. There's nothing "objectively valuable" about either, though. Not because of anything to do with either, but because "objectively valuable" is a contradiction in terms, like "objective meaning" or "objective morality".eigenstate
August 13, 2015
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@StephenB
We? Where did you get the “We?” It can’t be the mind or the brain because you just said that they are the things being used by the we.
"we" is just a collective pronoun for a group of individuals, of course. For each individual, the mind as the activity of the brain *is* the self, the "I". Unless you are committed to the Homunculus Fallacy, the *I* in 'we' is the mind.eigenstate
August 13, 2015
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Unless you can somehow identify an infallible source and interpret it infallibly, you, Barry Arrington, must use human reason to either accept or reject predestination. I could be wrong, but based on his statement in the other thread and my memory of past diatribes, he feels that his feelings are that privileged access to objective truth. In other words, he feels strongly that his intuitions are objectively true. Of course, I'm inclined to think that there's nothing as subjective as one's own feelings, even if they feel objectively true. But then, maybe that's just how disgusting maggots like us think.Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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I start with the most basic principles – the biggest. At that level, there’s no quibbling. No? Is it wrong to kill? What about convicted murderers, or babies that are probably not viable and jeopardize the mother’s life? (I don’t mean that you have to answer such questions, only that there is quibbling about the answers.) I guess we could agree that just about everyone agrees that killing is wrong but for certain exceptions, and that the exceptions aren’t at the level of the “most basic principles”? Again, we run into the problem of whether this is easier to explain by virtue of the fact that we’re social animals living in communities. We wouldn’t be very good communities if we didn’t teach kids that hurting other people is wrong but for certain exceptions. So I don’t see it as very good evidence of an OMT. Also, there’s a separate problem: if the OMT is only discernable at those biggest levels, well, what good is it? Say we all agree that it’s objectively wrong to kill but for certain exceptions, and that we can’t access an OMT to determine what those exceptions are. Functionally, we’re back in subjectivism. An OMT that is only accessible so far as everyone agrees is indistinguishable from the consensus of subjectivists, isn’t it? I believe you’re saying that none of the above is true of the objective moral law, but again I disagree. Well, not quite, since I don’t think there is an OML. I was merely pointing out that I’m much more focused on the question of accessibility than ontological existence. If it’s not accessible, it doesn’t matter much to me whether it exists or not. The objective moral law is as real and identifiable as water. Its properties do not change — it’s impossible for them to change. How do you know that?Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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Barry, The problem is, meaning, as you've outlined it here is unusable in practice if we try to take it seriously as an explanation for moral behavior. Before you could actually know the meaning of anything you would need infallibly identify an infallible source for this supposed objective morality and interpret it infallibly. How does that work, exactly, in practice? At best, you could say everything has some unknown, abstract "meaning", but it's unclear how abstract meaning actually helps you solve moral problems. As such, you still have no other recourse but to conjecture solutions to moral problems and criticize them. For example, Calvinists say that God elects who he saves, which means God specifically created some people for the purpose of going to hell. And they will present a laundry list of reasons why it's is Biblical and why it's "fair" given that God dishes out meaning, etc. Unless you can somehow identify an infallible source and interpret it infallibly, you, Barry Arrington, must use human reason to either accept or reject predestination. You do the very same thing when you were exposed to Islam, or any other religion, and any other moral problem. Reason and criticism comes first. Even if you say moral knowledge is some how written in to human beings, you have the same problem. Is that knowledge infallible? How can we interpret it infallibly? Again, reason and criticism always comes first. IOW, adding God to the equation doesn't actually add to the explanation of human moral behavior. It's conjecture and criticism with some unexplained facet that doesn't actually help us solve moral problems in practice. If you think it somehow does add to the explanation in practice, it would seem that implicit to your argument are a number of philosophical views about knowledge, in that it comes from authoritative sources, infallibility, etc., which you haven't argued for. However, since you're preaching to the choir, so to speak. you don't need to explicitly make that argument or expose it to criticism.Popperian
August 13, 2015
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eigenstate @ 45 keeps going on about how morality is like value. What we value is good simply because we value it. And what we don’t value is evil simply because we don’t value it.
And even more fundamentally, "good" and "meaningful" and "valuable" are products of our mental processes, inherently subjective. If the referent you are thinking about is objective, it can't be a "good" or a "value" these are intrinsically subjective concepts.
A Zimbabwean dollar once had value; now it has no value.
Right. Value, like meaning is a subjective function of the mind. There's nothing inherently valuable as currency about the piece of paper we may call a "Zimbabwean dollar". It can only accrue that value as the product of minds subjectively ascribing it value.
Killing Jews, homosexuals and the disabled is evil now because we don’t value those practices. If we did value those practices, according to eigenstate that would make them good.
By definition. What we value is what we value, tautologously.
You are an evil little fascist turd eigenstate. Thank you for continuing to show us the road where materialism leads — might makes right; the heel of a boot in our face forever. You disgust me.
There's nothing the least bit 'fascist' about any of that, any more than there is about gravity. You can't make an inherently subjective function -- value and meaning assignment -- objective through pure religious fervor or snarling resentment. Doesn't work that way.eigenstate
August 13, 2015
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Learned Hand Thanks for your reply. I'm glad I was able to get the materalist view mostly right, and I appreciate the clarifications added. I'm only going to look at one aspect, to keep things in focus:
I agree both that there’s general agreement (with quibbling around the edges of even the biggest, most basic principles) and that I think it’s due to biological or social factors.
The disagreement we have here is that I propose that the objective moral law is universal and necessary, and not merely a general agreement. I start with the most basic principles - the biggest. At that level, there's no quibbling.
Their standard is subjective, but they still are deciding based on their standard, not the majority’s standard.
As above, I disagree that the standard is subjective. It's something instead that is given, as part of human nature. Nobody can reject it or disagree with it. From your following post ...
I can go to any culture in the world and the properties of air and water don’t change. I can put a blind person’s hand in water and its properties don’t change. I can predict how its properties will change under various temperatures and pressures.
I believe you're saying that none of the above is true of the objective moral law, but again I disagree. The objective moral law is as real and identifiable as water. Its properties do not change -- it's impossible for them to change.Silver Asiatic
August 13, 2015
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The epistemological question does not discount the argument for objective value, unless you would care to deny the existence of water and air on the grounds that we can’t be sure they exist. Maybe I'm just approaching the question from a smaller scope. I'm comfortable assuming that air and water exist because they are repeatably, reliably, (operationally) objectively demonstrable. I can go to any culture in the world and the properties of air and water don't change. I can put a blind person's hand in water and its properties don't change. I can predict how its properties will change under various temperatures and pressures. Essentially all people will agree that water exists, and what its specific properties are, and if we disagree we can test those properties. (And the existence and specific properties of the tests and results will, again, enjoy virtually unanimous consent.) Maybe life is an illusion and air and water don't ultimately exist. I don't care very much; it's enough for me that they exist reliably in what I perceive as the real world.Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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SA, Thanks, I genuinely appreciate people who make a sincere effort to understand the other side. Your formulation isn’t quite right in my mind, but it’s pretty close. You say: The materialist defense of morals could be something like this: 1. People generally agree about what is right and wrong on the larger scale. This is due to evolution or chemistry and social dynamics. 2. People often disagree on many other aspects of morality. This proves that there is no accessible objective moral standard. This helps me refine my point. I wouldn’t say that disagreement disproves OMT. I’d say rather that it proves that there are subjective standards (which I think no one disputes). The critical point is that there’s no proof that the OMT exists, or what it is. Your first point is right, in that I agree both that there’s general agreement (with quibbling around the edges of even the biggest, most basic principles) and that I think it’s due to biological or social factors. Could that agreement be the proof of OMT? Lots of people probably think so. I don’t, and I think my skepticism comes from the fact that it’s more easily explained by those social and biological factors than by an invented objective standard. So to use a somewhat silly example, why do we feel good when we see someone we love? Well, probably it’s a combination of social and biological causes. Or possibly it’s Cupid tickling our pleasure centers with his arrow. But why believe in Cupid when the social and biological causes are sufficient? On the development of morals, what this means is that ethical decisions are basically whatever most people think. This is why we actually can vote (in the US) on any conceivable moral issue. Ethics emerges out of a democratic process. Hmmmm. I’m not enough of a philosopher to parse “ethics” very finely. Can we agree that law and social standards arise out of a democratic process, but that individuals still retain their own beliefs about what’s good and bad? I think that’s true whether or not OMT exists and is accessible. When the counterpoint is raised that Hitler was objectively wrong – the materialist view could agree with this in the sense that “since most people thought he was wrong, then he was”. They could, but I don’t think that’s the usual response. I think most materialists would say instead, “Hitler was wrong.” Their standard is subjective, but they still are deciding based on their standard, not the majority’s standard. (Of course, the majority’s standard is likely to be inherited to some extent by the next generation. Which explains why things like slavery and human sacrifice become seen as unacceptable over time, in a way the OMT doesn’t.) I can see huge problems with all of that, but it still might be worth exploring a different approach. Rather than starting from matter, space and time – perhaps look at the objective morals themselves and their origin and development within human society. It would be an interesting project. I don’t know how you’d begin, though.Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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Learned Hand
I don’t think that rescues OMT, since the epistemological question is the problematic one.
The epistemological question does not discount the argument for objective value, unless you would care to deny the existence of water and air on the grounds that we can't be sure they exist.StephenB
August 13, 2015
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Pro Hac Vice
Short of assuming that anyone who disagrees with me is just lying or insane, I don’t know how to reconcile those evident disagreements with some universally accessible OMT.
We discuss this topic often on UD and it almost always comes to a standstill -- which is ok as far as it goes. But in any case ... Taking the materialist/atheist side for a moment, the way I view it works like this: We see various evils and also good deeds in the world. Some examples are extreme (Hitler) of one or the other. The materialist defense of morals could be something like this: 1. People generally agree about what is right and wrong on the larger scale. This is due to evolution or chemistry and social dynamics. 2. People often disagree on many other aspects of morality. This proves that there is no accessible objective moral standard. I don't know what is gained by #2. Materialism could live with an objective standard, claiming it comes from nature. On the development of morals, what this means is that ethical decisions are basically whatever most people think. This is why we actually can vote (in the US) on any conceivable moral issue. Ethics emerges out of a democratic process. When the counterpoint is raised that Hitler was objectively wrong - the materialist view could agree with this in the sense that "since most people thought he was wrong, then he was". This sort of thinking avoids several problems. It starts with what exists today, and does not go back to origins (all that exists is space, time and matter). When it is said that molecules do not know what is right and wrong, it is answered that when molecules combine and form living organisms, moral values are an emergent property. I can see huge problems with all of that, but it still might be worth exploring a different approach. Rather than starting from matter, space and time - perhaps look at the objective morals themselves and their origin and development within human society. Just a thought.Silver Asiatic
August 13, 2015
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Not quite. The ontological question precedes the epistemological question in the order of being; the epistemological question precedes the ontological question in the order of knowing. I don't think that rescues OMT, since the epistemological question is the problematic one. I'm happy to admit that I don't know whether OMT actually exists; I suspect not, but can't prove it. At the same time, it's trivially easy to show that we can't access it if it does exist: there's no objective, temporal arbiter or standard upon which people can agree.Learned Hand
August 13, 2015
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Barry Arrington: A materialist says nothing exists but space, time, particles and energy. Thus, our bodies are nothing but particles in motion in space through time. Particles in motion lack the capacity to make moral choices for the simple reason that they have no free will. News flash Sean. Materialism excludes libertarian free will. If a particular amalgamation of burned out star stuff could not have done other than what it did, it makes no sense to say it is capable of making a moral choice. In other words, one has to be able to make a choice of any kind before one can make a choice of a particular kind.
I would probably prefer to slightly alter the second sentence, like this:
Thus, our bodies we are nothing but particles in motion in space through time.
Other than that I fully agree with this analysis. And I hold that it suffices to stop all materialistic attempts to ground morality.Box
August 13, 2015
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