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Good and bad arguments for fine-tuning?

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Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Canadian cosmologist Don Page has written, “In summary, I think the evidence from fine tuning is ambiguous, since the probabilities depend on the models.”

Some have questioned this, and I asked physicist Rob Sheldon who writes to say,

Don Page is exactly correct. Many, though not all, of these fine-tuning arguments have no way to measure the domain, and without that, specifying the range doesn’t turn it into fine tuning.

Let us suppose that your name is Robert Green, and you Google your name and find out that there are exactly 256 Robert Greens in the phone book. Is this evidence of fine tuning or not?

You know the range–256–but you don’t know the domain–the number of potential Robert Greens in the universe. Now suppose your name were Englebert Humperdinck, and you discovered there’s another one in the phone book. Would that be fine tuning? Let us further suppose that this EH was listed as living in a house that you moved out of 15 years ago, would that remove the fine tuning? So you see, it really does matter how big the domain is, how big is the pool of potential-EH minus defined-EH.

In the same way, when someone tells you that the proton mass to electron mass ratio must be accurate to 3 parts per thousand or else life is impossible, is that fine tuning or not? IF it is 3 parts per million for every other physical constant, then this one might not be so finely tuned after all. But wait, parts-per-million of what? It has to be compared to something, and by their nature, physical constants are in different units which makes it hard to intercompare them.

Now when the expansion energy of the universe (kinetic energy) equals the gravitational potential energy of the universe to one part in 10^60, that is measured in the same energy units. That’s clearly fine tuning or a law, but not an accident. So there are valid examples of fine tuning, which may turn
into some deep physical insight in the future, but for the moment can only be described as not-coincidence. But there are more invalid fine tuning examples being advertised than there are valid ones, which was Don Page’s point.

Thoughts?

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Comments
Carpathian, YOU are the issue.Virgil Cain
August 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain, It’s not working.Carpathian
August 21, 2015
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Carpathian:
You haven’t answered the question
Yes, I have. I told you many times before that the aliens would be the PROXIMATE cause. We couldn't say anything about them until we could study them. You are just too stupid to grasp that.
The “first designer”, i.e. the first intelligent agent, had to be God.
Wrong.
ID however wants to isolate itself from God so that it doesn’t look like Creationism.
Wrong again. For one SCIENCE doesn't give a hoot if God was/ is the designer. Newton understood science as a way of uncovering God's handiwork.Virgil Cain
August 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Carpathian: If the aliens also were the result of an intelligent agent, why even bring them up? Virgil Cain: I have already answered that. Obviously you just love to be willfully ignorant.
You haven't answered the question but I'll do it for you. The "first designer", i.e. the first intelligent agent, had to be God. ID however wants to isolate itself from God so that it doesn't look like Creationism. It's not working.Carpathian
August 21, 2015
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Carpathian- You are a confused mess. You don't understand ID. You don't understand science. And you think your ignorance is a valid argument.
If the aliens also were the result of an intelligent agent, why even bring them up?
I have already answered that. Obviously you just love to be willfully ignorant.Virgil Cain
August 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Carpathian: For example, how would a five year child judge restored vintage automobiles at a car show? Virgil Cain: Why would anyone allow a five year old to judge anything?
They wouldn't, which is why I brought up the example . It is an example since it never actually happened . Sometimes when trying to get across a "concept" or idea, one party may present a virtual scenario to help describe the point they are trying to make. Hopefully the other party, in this case you, is sophisticated enough to get the meaning embedded in the message. So read the following as if it were not "literally" true. To any intelligence that could create life, we are much less intelligent than a five year old is as compared to an adult human. In no way does this mean a five year old alien could create life. It also doesn't mean aliens are children at the age of five. It also does not mean that I have somehow calculated the age at which the aliens you brought up as possibly being the designers of life on Earth, become adults. It does however beg the question, if life on Earth was too complex to have arisen without an intelligent agent's hands-on "creation", why is it possible for the aliens to have arisen without an intelligent agent's "engineering"? That leads to this: If the aliens also were the result of an intelligent agent, why even bring them up?Carpathian
August 21, 2015
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I have no idea why scientists are trying to create life in the lab. They would not recognize it if they saw it.Mung
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
The problem is our abilities which is a point you brought up.
That is inherent in all of science.
For example, how would a five year child judge restored vintage automobiles at a car show?
Why would anyone allow a five year old to judge anything?
In the same way, if we don’t know how to go about the process of designing biological ID, why would our limited abilities be up to the task of recognizing it?
I just told you how we recognize it.
You can’t claim we’re capable in one case and not the other.
I. Just. Did. Are you saying that only people capable of murder can determine if a murder occurred? No one seems to be capable of producing Stonehenge...Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
I just told you how we can recognize it.
The problem is our abilities which is a point you brought up. For example, how would a five year child judge restored vintage automobiles at a car show? The sentence might read something like this; "That's the best one because it looks like a firetruck". The child doesn't have the capacity to understand what he is judging. In the same way, if we don't know how to go about the process of designing biological ID, why would our limited abilities be up to the task of recognizing it? You can't claim we're capable in one case and not the other.Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
And all the evidence that fills books of evolutionary theory demonstrates that non-intelligent agent evolution happened.
There isn't any way to test that claim. No one can model unguided evolution. It doesn't produce any predictions. IOW you are just a gullible fool.
On the other hand there is no evidence of biological ID.
Living organisms are evidence for ID. So is the genetic code, ATP synthase, bacterial flagella, cilia, etc.
You have claimed that humans don’t have the capacity to perform biological ID, so why would anyone believe we have the capacity to even recognize it?
I just told you how we can recognize it.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
There you have it- to falsify Intelligent Design all one has to do is demonstrate that natural selection can produce irreducibly complex biological systems. I predict Carpathian will choke on that.
And all the evidence that fills books of evolutionary theory demonstrates that non-intelligent agent evolution happened. On the other hand there is no evidence of biological ID. There have been no attempts to demonstrate that biological ID is even possible. That should have been the first steps proponents of biological ID should have taken. If you truly believe something, see if it's possible. You have claimed that humans don't have the capacity to perform biological ID, so why would anyone believe we have the capacity to even recognize it?Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
Show me the test.
The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ' s Black Box: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” So if nature, operating freely cannot account for it AND it meets that criteria, some agency is required and we infer design (or at least agency involvement). ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
There you have it- to falsify Intelligent Design all one has to do is demonstrate that natural selection can produce irreducibly complex biological systems. I predict Carpathian will choke on that.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Darwinism and its variants can be discounted because they cannot be tested. The design inference can be tested.
Show me the test. Saying X must have been designed because Y is highly improbable is not the same as testing your conclusion. If biological ID cannot be performed by the limited intelligence of its proponents then why do you think that same limited intelligence can render a verdict on whether it has been done? It's not enough to say to engineering students that bridges are very difficult to design and then leave it at that. Your side lacks the exact thing you claim renders our side's argument as invalid, and that is the details. I predict no IDist will ever attempt to look into the logistics of biological ID. Any serious effort at solving the logistical problems of biological ID will cause that IDist to abandon ID as an explanation for life as it appears today.Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Darwinism and its variants can be discounted because they cannot be tested. The design inference can be tested.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
But I can eliminate ID just as you have eliminated “Darwinism”.
You could eliminate design but you would have to show that necessity and chance were up to the task. And you can't do that. Heck, you are so dim that you don't even understand the genetic code.
IDists present arguments that “Darwinism” is improbable,
No, moron. ID has observed that darwinism has nothing and doesn't even deserve a seat at the table for probability discussions.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
The fact you don’t have the answer to that...
An answer for your strawman? Seriously?
It has to do with whether ID is more or less probable than “Darwinism”.
That is your opinion.
How after so many years of claiming that biological ID actually happened, has no one on your side looked into the mechanisms required to do it?
Because it is beyond our capability. We can't even figure out how Stonehenge was built.
If tomorrow, “Darwinism” was pulled from science classes, what would biological ID proponents replace it with?
Intelligent Design and the view that organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Positive details for ID are in the detection of intelligent design. It just so happens that science requires that before reaching a design inference necessity and chance explanations have to be eliminated first.
But I can eliminate ID just as you have eliminated "Darwinism". IDists present arguments that "Darwinism" is improbable, and I have presented arguments that ID is improbable. If "Darwinism" can be discounted due to improbability, then so can biological ID. Agreed?Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Carpathian: The amount of information required to add a single species is so massive … Virgil Cain: How did you determine that? And how does that relate to ID?
The fact you don't have the answer to that is a good indication that no IDist has ever actually worked out the logistics of biological ID. It has to do with whether ID is more or less probable than "Darwinism". How after so many years of claiming that biological ID actually happened, has no one on your side looked into the mechanisms required to do it? If tomorrow, "Darwinism" was pulled from science classes, what would biological ID proponents replace it with? After many years of reading this blog, I have never seen an IDist rise to the occasion and show a replacement for "Darwinism".Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Section 5.5Amino Acids Are Encoded by Groups of Three Bases Starting from a Fixed Point:
1. Three nucleotides encode an amino acid. Proteins are built from a basic set of 20 amino acids, but there are only four bases. Simple calculations show that a minimum of three bases is required to encode at least 20 amino acids. Genetic experiments showed that an amino acid is in fact encoded by a group of three bases, or codon.
Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
The amount of information required to add a single species is so massive …
How did you determine that? And how does that relate to ID?Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
You make it sound like ID has the required detailed methodology to introduce a new organism into an ecosystem.
And yet I never said anything about that. What I said a first grader could understand. What is your problem?
I see a trend here.
Yes, your inability to follow along and your ability to hump strawmen has become a boring trend.
I ask you for positive details about biological ID and you give me negative details about “Darwinism”.
Not true. I was responding to your trope about what ID claims. Positive details for ID are in the detection of intelligent design. It just so happens that science requires that before reaching a design inference necessity and chance explanations have to be eliminated first. That means even if Darwinism and its variants didn't exist ID would still have to contend with other explanations just as archaeology has to contend with geology. ID has said, in detail, what the design criteria is and how to reach a design inference. Yours doesn’t even have a methodology.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Carpathian: Then show me some ID “details” that would be required in order for a “designer” to introduce a new organism into an ecosystem. Virgil Cain: Obviously you cannot read nor learn. You are willfully ignorant.
You make it sound like ID has the required detailed methodology to introduce a new organism into an ecosystem. Could you please point me to that work?Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Carpathian: ID has said that “Darwinism” is improbable and thus rule it out as an explanation for biological diversity. Virgil Cain: AGAIN, there isn’t any evidence to support natural selection and drift producing anything, let alone the diversity of life.
I see a trend here. I ask you for positive details about biological ID and you give me negative details about "Darwinism". Why when you have an opportunity to show the strength of ID , you instead try to focus on the weakness of "Darwinism" ? Show me answers that could be taught in a school.Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
Then show me some ID “details” that would be required in order for a “designer” to introduce a new organism into an ecosystem.
Obviously you cannot read nor learn. You are willfully ignorant.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
ID has said that “Darwinism” is improbable and thus rule it out as an explanation for biological diversity.
AGAIN, there isn't any evidence to support natural selection and drift producing anything, let alone the diversity of life.
The amount of information required to add a single species is so massive ...
How did you determine that? And how does that relate to ID?Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain, ID has said that "Darwinism" is improbable and thus rule it out as an explanation for biological diversity. The same thing holds true for biological ID as anyone who has thought about have to admit. The amount of information required to add a single species is so massive that it is highly improbable that biological ID is a good explanation for biological diversity. Prove me wrong by actually sitting down at a desk and coming up with some numbers. I ask anyone to actually try it.Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Nice projection as yours is devoid of details. OTOH ID has said, in detail, what the design criteria is and how to reach a design inference. Yours doesn’t even have a methodology.
Then show me some ID "details" that would be required in order for a "designer" to introduce a new organism into an ecosystem. 1)How do you calculate the amount of available calories in an ecosystem before you add another organism that needs to get energy from that ecosystem? 2) What is the effect of that new organism on the distribution of energy in that ecosystem?Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Genetic code:
There are 64 possible permutations, or combinations, of three-letter nucleotide sequences that can be made from the four nucleotides. Of these 64 codons, 61 represent amino acids, and three are stop signals.
Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian, Willfully ignorant...Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
Using that sort of simplistic logic I could compare a bathtub to a nuclear generating plant, i.e. water in and water out.
You are the simpleton here. However if you used that bathtub water to power a turbine, which you could during both the filling and draining, then you may be able to make such a comparison.
ID has a tradition of never providing details about any of their claims
Nice projection as yours is devoid of details. OTOH ID has said, in detail, what the design criteria is and how to reach a design inference. Yours doesn't even have a methodology.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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