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Will Texas Face Court Challenges to the New Science Standards?

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Now that the moaning and hand-wringing are over, there’s talk of mounting some legal challenges to the new science standards in Texas. At issue aren’t the standards themselves, but the personal motivations of some of the Board members who advocated for these standards.

Now the issue is whether there is enough prima facie evidence to challenge the Constitutionality of the wording now, or wait for the textbook review process in two years.

“They have shown clear religious motivations that certainly raise some questions,” Quinn said. “But if the board requires phony religious arguments in the science textbooks, I can’t imagine somebody won’t challenge it.” Publishers may end up producing a textbook for Texas and other conservative states and a separate version for other states—because under the new guidelines, a Texas textbook “will be poison in states that value education,” [Dan Quinn, a spokesman for the Texas Freedom Network].


I guess Quinn isn’t bothered at all by the motivations of atheists or philosophical naturalists who want to teach students that no matter how complex and specified biological systems might appear, the design is only apparent and not actual because nature posses all the creative power to produce it through chance and/or necessity. If Quinn is really concerned about motivations, he ought to check the philosophical and worldview motivations of those who want to promote naturalism as science in science classrooms. He has nary a peep about any of that.

So here’s a few questions for Mr. Quinn and anyone else sweating bullets over the “religious” motivations of those who question the way science is taught in public school classrooms: What does a worldview free science classroom look like? How do you sucessfully divorce science from any and all philosophical underpinnings? And if you can’t do that, how do you decide which philosophical considerations are necessary for science and which aren’t?

While we’re on the subject of motivations, perhaps Mr. Quinn might take note that William Wilberforce fought for over 20 years in the early 1800’s to end the slave trade in England motivated almost entirely by his “religion” (Christianity). Should England have repealed the anti-slave trade act because of those “religious” motivations? Or can we only call motivations into question when it involves how we teach science? If so, Mr. Quinn, what’s your specific criteria for determining those motivations and deciding that no matter how good the standards might be, if they were inspired by the “wrong” motivations, we just can’t let them stand.

Comments
Dave Wisker, You don't seem to have a clue about the debate or else you would not have made some of your comments. Especially bringing up genetics. The silly question about whether I took a course in evolution is an indication of this lack of understanding. I watched what they provide at Berkeley for their biology course. I have read several pro Darwin books of evolution. I have textbooks by several popular authors and a textbook on evolutionary biology. I have seen what people say at various sites on the internet and when they come here, including evolutionary biologists. Slatin was very good but he never, and I mean never, provided support for any mechanism that explains macro evolution. So yes, he did not provide a coherent theory for macro evolution only that it happened. He is a geneticist and probably a very good one but genetics is micro evolution, not macro evolution. Maybe your are confusing the fact of evolution with the mechanism for evolution. I suggest you read the standard ID disclaimer I wrote before you go further with this debate. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/november-apologetics-conference-we-need-more-than-good-arguments/#comment-296129 For example, ID accepts all of genetics but genetics is not macro evolution. The question is where did the variation come from for complex novel capabilities and the information necessary to produce it and control it. The debate is over the origin of variation.jerry
April 17, 2009
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mikev6, The theory of evolution doesn't explain anything. There aren't any predictions to be made from the proposed mechanisms. The whole theory can be summed up as "we don't know".Joseph
April 17, 2009
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Jerry asked:
Then you agree with us that macro evolution should be removed from the textbooks and classrooms because there is no evidence that any particular theory can explain it. Let is be explained to students that science is still working on it but as of this time there is no theory than can explain it.
Nope. I would present it as the best current explanation that we know at this time given the available data. I would use it (as well) to talk about the difficulties inherent in scientfic inferences from past events, the role of weight of evidence in science, and the importance of being able (as you suggest) to say "we don't know" rather than automatically fill that void with a minimally tested and analyzed explanation until such time as it can start to compete with the current best solution.mikev6
April 17, 2009
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Joseph,
Carroll’s books are full of nothing but speculation.
that sounds exactly like a statement from someone who hasn't read them.
Also as you have been told several times now the definition of “macro-evolution” that you are using is NOT even being debated.
and that sounds exactly like a statement from someone who didn't read my post.. or does "evolution of body plans" sound like just more microevolution to you?Khan
April 17, 2009
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mikev6, There isn't any sufficient positive empirical evidence for the theory of evolution. All the evidence points to a wobbling stability and nothing shows that new body plans with new protein machinery and new body parts can arise. The ONLY hope left is evo-devo which is very similar to hocus-pocus. Now perhaps you are OK with your kids being taught hocus-pocus but when my kids get to that age I will put up a fight that will put Maureen O'Hare to shame.Joseph
April 17, 2009
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Khan, Carroll's books are full of nothing but speculation. Also as you have been told several times now the definition of "macro-evolution" that you are using is NOT even being debated. That you refuse to understand that fact just further exposes your agenda of bait-n-switch deception.Joseph
April 17, 2009
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jerry,
Ijust noticed one of the authors of your article. It is Monty Slatkin and he teaches the evolution course at Berkeley which I claim does not present a coherent discussion of macro evolution. I have seen him twice and it was the same both times and was not able to support any explanation for macro evolution.
Slatkin is the head of the Integrative Biology Dept at Cal. My undergraduate Genetics degree is from there. What exactly is 'incoherent' about Slatkin's work? I'm sorry, but your claiming it's incoherent doesn't cut much ice with me.Dave Wisker
April 17, 2009
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" I don’t feel there is sufficient positive empirical evidence at this point to raise it to the level where it should be included in a school science curriculum. I feel the same about astrology." Then you agree with us that macro evolution should be removed from the textbooks and classrooms because there is no evidence that any particular theory can explain it. Let is be explained to students that science is still working on it but as of this time there is no theory than can explain it.jerry
April 17, 2009
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Jerry,
How come it never gets into the textbooks or the biology classes? I have several textbooks and have videos of classes at Berkeley and MIT and a course by the Teaching Company.
What texts? Have you ever taken an actual course in Evolution or Genetics?Dave Wisker
April 17, 2009
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Dave Wisker, I just noticed one of the authors of your article. It is Monty Slatkin and he teaches the evolution course at Berkeley which I claim does not present a coherent discussion of macro evolution. I have seen him twice and it was the same both times and was not able to support any explanation for macro evolution.jerry
April 17, 2009
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Dave Wisker, How come it never gets into the textbooks or the biology classes? I have several textbooks and have videos of classes at Berkeley and MIT and a course by the Teaching Company. Hyperbole or not, we are still waiting and why don't you present the evidence in the article? The hyperbole is on purpose because first it is true. No one has ever presented a coherent explanation for macro evolution here and we have evolutionary biologists on record that there is no model for it or that it has to be taken on faith. And second, it is meant to get people's attention and see if they can deliver. So I suggest you be the first and lead the way. That the UD challenge (present a coherent discussion on the origin of macro evolution) and we can see what happens. We are eager to learn.jerry
April 17, 2009
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NNoel, I would add Sean Carrol's "Endless Forms Most Beautiful", James Valentine's "Origin of the Phyla" and Lynn Margulis' "Acquiring Genomes: A Theory of the Origins of Species." THe first is a nice summary of evo-devo research that shows how macroevolution occurs through changes in regulatory genes. The second is by a paleontologist but is truly an integrative work, bringing in fossils, genetics, morphology, etc. into a coherent theory of the evolution of body plans. It's a slow read, but worth it. The third argues that symbiosis, rather than mutation, is the primary source of innovation and variation that natural selection can work on. jerry by his own admission uses a lot of hyperbole, so take statements like this
You can make all the assertions you want but no one in any book or on any internet site or in any journal has ever provided a coherent explanation.
with a grain of salt.Khan
April 17, 2009
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Now Christopher Hitchens has weighed in on Texas in an editorial in Newsweek. The article appears replete with photos from Dayton, TN in 1925 and a book table from the "Anti-Evolution League"....not that one should read any bias in that! Hitchens writes,
It's not just that the overwhelming majority of scientists are now convinced that evolution is inscribed in the fossil record and in the lineaments of molecular biology. It is more that evolutionists will say in advance which evidence, if found, would refute them and force them to reconsider. ("Rabbit fossils in the pre-Cambrian layer" was, I seem to remember, the response of Prof. J.B.S. Haldane.) Try asking an "intelligent design" advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one.
I have no idea what Hitchens is talking about in that last sentence. I doubt if he does either. Now if he had substituted "evolution" for "Intelligent Design", then it might have made sense!DonaldM
April 17, 2009
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Ludwig in #56. Thanks for the update. Wow, this whole thing just has everyone in an uproar doesn't it? I love this last bit:
University of Texas biology professor David Hillis said the result of that decision is: "Texas students now have a weakened science curriculum, and the science reputation of the state has been seriously injured." This bill will "keep the focus of education on education, rather than on politics," Hillis said.
Weakened curriculum? What nonsense!! If anything, the new standards in Texas are among the strongest in the Nation! What I've said all along is proving true. What the Darwinian establishment fears most that students who learn how to analyze and critique the evidence for a scientific theory just might realize the real problems with a lot the evolutionary hypotheses. Not to mention the fact that analyzing and critiquing evidence for a theory is exactly what ordinary scientists due on every ordinary day of the week in their labs and in the field. Why on earth would anyone NOT want students to learn how to do that properly? Hillis's statement here is a croc! Gimme a break.DonaldM
April 17, 2009
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DonaldM wrote:
Whether or not ID adds anything to our understanding of things is part of (a very large part) the issue. Merely asserting that it doesn’t is begging the question. Additionally, rejecting ID on evidential grounds (”insufficient evidence” or “not gotten past the first rung of the evidential ladder”)requires explaining why certain observations of data and phenomenon in nature can not be taken to be evidence for ID. The claim of “no evidence” only means that there is nothing you accept as being evidence for ID, which is very different from the claim of “no evidence”. The real question is what background principles give warrant to rejecting ID as a proper explanation for certain observations of data and phenomenon in nature?
Two points on this: 1) I don't think there are any background principles forcing rejection of ID as an explanation. My objection to ID is that I don't feel there is sufficient positive empirical evidence at this point to raise it to the level where it should be included in a school science curriculum. I feel the same about astrology. 2) I would rather not assert anything. I would prefer that someone show me the extensive reading list on how new species are created by a designer or other aspects of how ID explains the diversity of life. Evolution at least puts a stake in the ground, says "we think it happened this way", and one can argue pro/con and search for/evaluate evidence. It doesn't seem that ID has reached that point, but if you have research links to this type of material, I will be more than willing to read more. -mmikev6
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel, jerry's hyperbole notwithstanding, here is a very coherent explanation of macroevolution, by three of the best evolutionary biologists in the business: Charlesworth B, R Lande & M Slatkin (1982). A Neo-Darwinian commentary on macroevolution. Evolution 36(3): 474-498Dave Wisker
April 17, 2009
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Mr SCheesman, The problem is not with the search algorithm, it is the character of the solution space. If so, why complain about Weasel, ev, Avida et al.?Nakashima
April 17, 2009
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On-topic update. It appears that the Texas Senate Education Committee may have lost its patience with the YECs on the board. Excerpt below from here: http://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/04/15/0415stateboard.html
"All I hear is that the Republicans want to push their religious views into the curriculum, and the Democrats want to teach our children how to masturbate," [Senator, R-Waco] Averitt said during the committee hearing Tuesday. Senate Bill 2275 would give the state's education commissioner, who is appointed by the governor, the authority to approve the curriculum standards and textbooks based on the recommendations of a group of educators. The board members, however, could override the commissioner's decision with a four-fifths vote. State Board of Education Chairman Don McLeroy, R-College Station, said that under the proposal, only the "education establishment" would shape curriculum and textbook decisions and that the board would simply become a rubber stamp.
Maybe litigation won't be necessary after all.Ludwig
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel, No one and I mean no one from Richard Dawkins on down to the entire evolutionary biology community on the planet has give a coherent explanation for the naturalistic explanation of macro evolution. It is either micro evolution or speculation they propose. You can make all the assertions you want but no one in any book or on any internet site or in any journal has ever provided a coherent explanation. If they had then one would point to it. There is lots of speculative writings out there starting with Darwin's OOS which have the ability to convince gullible minds but nothing that holds up to scrutiny.jerry
April 17, 2009
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BTW Nnoel, The day that Musgrave demonstrates any understanding of his opposition will be a day he stops writing so many misrepresentations about them. Also there wasn't anything in that essay which would demonstrate the changes required are even possible. Tell me- How can one test the premise that the bacterial flagellum arose from a population that never had one via an accumulation of genetic accidents? Your attempt to answer that question should point out the weakness of the theory. Your avoidance of the question will prove my point.Joseph
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel, I have read many books, scientific articles, text books and just about everything I can find on biology and evolution. There isn't anything which demonstrates that genetic accidents can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new body plans requiring new protein machinery and body parts. The ToE is mere speculation based on the assumption. However it does provide for a good bedtime story...Joseph
April 17, 2009
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Just a quick note about how ToE improves my (amatuer) knowledge of things (if anyone is interested [and doubts what I say]) Basically, the study of biology will find HOW something lives (like it's life cycle, it's feeding patterns) or HOW it functions (how it's limbs work, how it moves, how it interacts with it's own species). The ToE kicks in almost automatically when the HOW of many different types of creatures are placed in the same 'knowledge space' (hehe, just cause 'solution space' above). When that happens, the correlations, similarities and patterns infer what is related to what, knowing everything about tigers and lions would lead you to conclude they are related in some way. Some people would say the relation is because 'they were both designed by the same god', but evolution would lead you to conclude that they both evolved from a common cat-like creature. ToE explains the WHY questions, once biology has answered the HOW questions, and surprisingly enough, knowing the WHY helps you answer more HOW questions. And thats how ToE helps. With this in mind, I'd recommend the article at Panda's thumb I mention above.Nnoel
April 17, 2009
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Regarding Joseph @42 : I am not responding to Joseph himself, but to those that have read his remarks and re-inforced their view that ToE is a 'theory in crisis'. This is NOT TRUE, plain an simple, his ignorance on this topic is not truth. All he has done is try to refute ToE with what? nothing. my previous point proved I believe. His comments are part of the 'politics and progaganda', not the sceince In Joseph's next comment he concludes ToE adds nothing to our understanding. In my humble opinion, I for MYSELF understand organsims and the part they play in the larger scheme of things based on ToE, it's how everything fits together. For those interested, Panda's thumb has an illuminating article on this exact topic : http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/04/the-real-reason.html SCheesman @ 47 I appreciate that the landscape may be empty space (in my mind I think of it as 'non-solution space' nested amongst 'solution space'), but for me that would correlate to harmful mutations, and nobody would argue that those don't exists, but a random search is limited by the population that is producing offspring (each offspring is a [possible] stochastic jump), and the length a generation takes to produce offspring, hence bacteria are so well suited to evolving. I fail to find the problem you see with the 'solution space' as described, but perhaps the 'initial setup' is bothering you, in which case I'd say invoke your god all you like, evolution doesn't deal with beginnings, only what happened after. If the problem is with x turning into y where x is not abiotic, well then that's irreducible complexity, and reasonable evaulation has shown that all cases of IR do have a solution space, and claiming the stochastic search couldn't possibly navigate the landscape is just religiously motivated thinking that 'god must have helped', and in that case, you'd be admitting that the improbable answer WAS reached, it was just done so with the Flying Spagetti Monster using his noodly appendages in manners we do not and could not understand. My reference to FSM is not meant as insult, just as always, trying to show typical example without pinning down which higher intelligience 'dun it' I'm at work, almost home time, this may be my last post for a while. Love you all like your meNnoel
April 17, 2009
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Hi mikev6, I’m curious how you were able to make the leap from this:
In all fields of science, analyze, evaluate, and critique scientific explanations by using empirical evidence, logical reasoning, and experimental and observational testing, including examining all sides of the scientific evidence of those scientific explanations so as to encourage critical thinking by the student.
to this:
ID is being foisted on my child to further a social agenda
Seems like juuuust a bit of a stretch, but I’m willing to listen.SteveB
April 17, 2009
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SCheesman @34
Darwinian mechanisms and genetic algorithms are highly efficient at locating solutions in well-behaved and mostly-continuous fitness landscapes. You can trace the path it takes from the starting conditions to the final solution like a string of pearls selected from a near-infinite collection of possible solutions and paths. That is why the search is so efficient, and why a machine can vastly outperform “clever” humans when dealing with a multitude of variables with unpredictable (except to a mathematical processor) interactions. No new information is created, it is discovering by clever search algorithms what already exists. Useful genetic code “solutions”, on the other hand, are like dark moons, separate by light-years drifting through solution space, while the rest of space is filled with non-functional junk. There is no helpful gradient, and one cannot in general (and except in the extremely limited form found in cases like bacterial resistance) reach out and hope to find another nearby that’s functional in a usefully different way.
I agree with you that this is probably the case, but it is by no means proven. This is exactly why I consider Dr. Behe's work to be a more likely route to reaching a scientific theory of ID from the various current hypotheses. If we can show that there is no way for the known mechanisms of modern evolutionary theory to have produced the "endless forms most beautiful" that we observe, if, in other words, we can find the "edge of evolution," then ID will have made a positive, testable prediction. Unfortunately, we're not there yet. Claiming that the many dimensional biological fitness landscape does consist of separated islands is, in my view, likely but definitely unproven. JJJayM
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel:
Stochastic search features in genetic algorithms allow solutions to jump past ‘local peaks’ as you suggest and find the global peak. Basically, randomly jumping around the ’solution landscape’ and then reattempting to climb the peak, to truly find the best answer, and not just a small peak in the shadow of a better solution.
It is precisely the "jumping" around function that I was referring to in my 'moons separated by light-years' analogy. Kairfocus makes the point in a similar way. If your local maxima are not too far enough, then random search is sufficient to cross over the "junk" to find new fitness paths, and eventually you find the right way home. But if viable solutions are too widely separated, then random search fails due to the lack of probabilistic resources; there is simply not enough time to find an alternate solution path once you have reached a local maximum. The problem is not with the search algorithm, it is the character of the solution space.SCheesman
April 17, 2009
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Off topic comment: I notice that comments on the Simulation Wars thread were closed without explanation. That seems odd, as some significant new material had just been posted. I'm wondering why this was done? Can anyone in management explain?hazel
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel: I saw your comment on GA's. What happens when we are dealing with a fitness landscape that is a huge [>> 10^180,000+ configs . . . that's just for DNA for credible first life] sea of non function that has in it isolated islands of function? What happens when to get to major body plans beyond the very first one, you have to, de novo -- dozens of times over -- create 10's - 100's of megabits of new functional information? Functionality that is not simply bridged by handy isthmuses? Climbing up to hilltops within Isle Improbable, and hopping form one mountain top to another is only relevant AFTER the real challenge has been dealt with. GEM of TKI PS: 1,000 bits of info specifies a space of ~ 10^301 configs, ten times the SQUARE of the credible number of quantum states of our observable cosmos across its lifespan. Isolated islands in such a toy-sized space are not credibly findable by random walks, and unless you are on a shore of function you cannot hill climb by differential performance, nor can short hops credibly land you on handy nearby hill slopes. Long random hops will overwhelmingly splash you down anywhere in the sea of non-function, i.e back to square 1. but, intelligent designers routinely produce artifacts that are on islands of function, but by just that: directed, purposeful contingency. [And, GA's themselves are illustrative: where do you think the program and its underlying databases, rules, knowledge base, principles functionality etc and the machine it runs on come from?]kairosfocus
April 17, 2009
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mikev6
However, this is a political issue, not a scientific one. Currently, ID seems to add almost nothing to our understanding of things, yet there are those who want to teach it to my child in school. I object to this on the same grounds that I would for teaching astrology - there is insufficient evidence and accepting things without evidence is not how we teach science correctly. No matter how weak we may say parts of evolution are, ID hasn’t even gotten past the first rung of the evidential ladder. I can’t help but infer that ID is being foisted on my child to further a social agenda - “we can’t convince the parent so we’ll target the child instead.”
Whether or not ID adds anything to our understanding of things is part of (a very large part) the issue. Merely asserting that it doesn't is begging the question. Additionally, rejecting ID on evidential grounds ("insufficient evidence" or "not gotten past the first rung of the evidential ladder")requires explaining why certain observations of data and phenomenon in nature can not be taken to be evidence for ID. The claim of "no evidence" only means that there is nothing you accept as being evidence for ID, which is very different from the claim of "no evidence". The real question is what background principles give warrant to rejecting ID as a proper explanation for certain observations of data and phenomenon in nature?DonaldM
April 17, 2009
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mikev6- The theory of evolution adds nothing to our understanding. “Evidence”(?) for the evolution of the vision system Andrea Bottaro said the following over at the panda’s thumb:
Eyes are formed via long and complex developmental genetic networks/cascades, which we are only beginning to understand, and of which Pax6/eyeless (the gene in question, in mammals and Drosophila, respectively) merely constitutes one of the initial elements.
IOW the only evidence for the evolution of the vision system is that we have observed varying degrees of complexity in living organisms, from simple light sensitive spots on unicellular organisms to the vision system of more complex metazoans, and we “know” that the first population(s) of living organisms didn’t have either. Therefore the vision system “evolved”. Isn’t evolutionary “science” great! I say the above because if Dr Bottaro is correct then we really have no idea whether or not the vision system could have evolved from a population or populations that did not have one.Joseph
April 17, 2009
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