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Will Texas Face Court Challenges to the New Science Standards?

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Now that the moaning and hand-wringing are over, there’s talk of mounting some legal challenges to the new science standards in Texas. At issue aren’t the standards themselves, but the personal motivations of some of the Board members who advocated for these standards.

Now the issue is whether there is enough prima facie evidence to challenge the Constitutionality of the wording now, or wait for the textbook review process in two years.

“They have shown clear religious motivations that certainly raise some questions,” Quinn said. “But if the board requires phony religious arguments in the science textbooks, I can’t imagine somebody won’t challenge it.” Publishers may end up producing a textbook for Texas and other conservative states and a separate version for other states—because under the new guidelines, a Texas textbook “will be poison in states that value education,” [Dan Quinn, a spokesman for the Texas Freedom Network].


I guess Quinn isn’t bothered at all by the motivations of atheists or philosophical naturalists who want to teach students that no matter how complex and specified biological systems might appear, the design is only apparent and not actual because nature posses all the creative power to produce it through chance and/or necessity. If Quinn is really concerned about motivations, he ought to check the philosophical and worldview motivations of those who want to promote naturalism as science in science classrooms. He has nary a peep about any of that.

So here’s a few questions for Mr. Quinn and anyone else sweating bullets over the “religious” motivations of those who question the way science is taught in public school classrooms: What does a worldview free science classroom look like? How do you sucessfully divorce science from any and all philosophical underpinnings? And if you can’t do that, how do you decide which philosophical considerations are necessary for science and which aren’t?

While we’re on the subject of motivations, perhaps Mr. Quinn might take note that William Wilberforce fought for over 20 years in the early 1800’s to end the slave trade in England motivated almost entirely by his “religion” (Christianity). Should England have repealed the anti-slave trade act because of those “religious” motivations? Or can we only call motivations into question when it involves how we teach science? If so, Mr. Quinn, what’s your specific criteria for determining those motivations and deciding that no matter how good the standards might be, if they were inspired by the “wrong” motivations, we just can’t let them stand.

Comments
Nnoel, You say that ID has no science but what does YOUR position have? It has absolutely nothing. And your ignorance of ID is not a refutation. The theory of evolution is a thjeory of "we don't know": Do chimps and humans share a common ancestor? We don't know is the only honest answer. Did the vision system/ eyes evolve from a population that didn't have either? We don't know. Can the bacterial flagellum evolve from a population that never had one? We don't know. Heck how can we test those premises? We can't test them objectively. Ya see the truth is if YOU could support your claims then ID would go away. But anyway: Supporting ID- be sure to follow the links provided.Joseph
April 17, 2009
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A footnote or two: 1] Wilberforce's struggle against the slave trade was from the 1780's - 1807, when it was abolished. (The battle against the slave system in the British empire hotted up across the 1820's and culminated in abolition after the Jamaican Baptist War uprising of 1831 -- which started as a sit down strike for pay. The key leadership were in specific and major part motivated by the Christian Bible's teachings on liberty and equality and mutual duty in community under God. That history says something to those who seemingly can only construct the Christian faith as being oppressive. (Cf here for some historical pointers.)] 2] I like Gil's key observation: The “grand claim” is that the Darwinian mechanism can create highly sophisticated computer programs and human consciousness, with hopelessly inadequate probabilistic resources. {Prezactly. And, FYI, DK et al, I have put up my after-exchange summary on this general theme here, joining other remarks on the capacity and limitations of chance, necessity and agency here. I think these give enough for people to make up their minds for themselves on the main and secondary issues; so I will not take up further attempts to debate the matter, especially given the poisonous atmosphere that has developed at Anti Evo etc. In short, some serious lines of no return have been crossed; lines that cannot be un-crossed.] 3] Science is -- by inescapable epistemic constraints and irrefutable Q-theory and relativity-shaped historical fact -- provisional and partial knowledge of the world based on observation, experiment and theorising etc. It is therefore astonishing that the need for citizens in training [aka high school students] to be aware of the provisionality of science should even be an issue. So, studying "strengths and weaknesses" and/or critical assessment of the strength or limitations of and issues surrounding scientific knowledge claims in general, of scientific theories is not even an issue, properly. 4] When it comes to the point that those theories and models that try to reconstruct a remote, unobserved and unrepeatable past are even more limited than those which deal with the ongoing operations of our currently experienced world, it ALMOST is not necessary to underscore the contrast. [And that is one reason why the theory of Macroevolution and OOL models simply cannot be compared with say the theory of gravitation, Newtonian or Relativistic forms.] Just a few thoughts. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 17, 2009
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SCheesman @34 : Stochastic search features in genetic algorithms allow solutions to jump past 'local peaks' as you suggest and find the global peak. Basically, randomly jumping around the 'solution landscape' and then reattempting to climb the peak, to truly find the best answer, and not just a small peak in the shadow of a better solution. Genetic algorithms have been used to create new Theories in Math, finding solutions in datasets far larger and complex than any human can work with. I think you'd be surprised by what solution a genetic algorithm can produce! mikev6 @38 Bravo friend! Yes, it should not be a political issue, but only a scientific one! The fact that ID has no science, it relies on politics, but then people ignorant of the science say 'but with all this politics, surely it's a science issue!' and 'why would such a solid science foundation need such a political defense' without realising that their is no science issues, ID is only politics, politics to convince us that the science destroying religion is wrong!! (I don't personally have a religious issue with anything that emerged from Darwin's theory, but apparently some people do) I say ID should pretend that no other theories exists, and just use ITSELF to explain everything it sees. (I'd also like to see politicians saying the same, explaining how they make things better, without attacking their opponents). By the way, I say this with the understanding that ID does no explaining, it has no hypothesis it tests, it only postulates that things MAY be designed.Nnoel
April 17, 2009
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M6: Please cf here. (Topics 1 - 7 just above the linked point will also help.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 17, 2009
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Jack Golightly said:
Perhaps it is not really possible to abandon the hope that we will be able to explain the “How?”, but, with all the constant surprise at the complexity that is being discovered seemingly daily in nature, and especially biological life forms, wouldn’t it be better to look at these things with the assumption that they are, in fact, designed, and try and understand the “What”?
If ID and the Discovery Institute were content to explore this concept in the arena of science - publish papers, hold conferences, etc - I would be happy to participate. I'd be highly skeptical, but I actually enjoy exploring ideas that I don't fully accept as part of my own learning process. However, this is a political issue, not a scientific one. Currently, ID seems to add almost nothing to our understanding of things, yet there are those who want to teach it to my child in school. I object to this on the same grounds that I would for teaching astrology - there is insufficient evidence and accepting things without evidence is not how we teach science correctly. No matter how weak we may say parts of evolution are, ID hasn't even gotten past the first rung of the evidential ladder. I can't help but infer that ID is being foisted on my child to further a social agenda - "we can't convince the parent so we'll target the child instead." It is the political agenda that changes my stance from "hmm - interesting idea" to "where's the ACLU on speed dial?".mikev6
April 17, 2009
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GilDodgen @ 35: "djmullen: First it said that specified complexity was an indicator of design, but that’s exactly what Darwinian evolution produces… So Behe suggested Irreducible Complexity, but it turns out that Darwinian Evolution can produce that too! Surely you jest." I do not jest and stop calling me Shirley ;) I see you don't mention the EF. Have you given up on it too? Smart move. I know Dembski gave up on it, which was a smart move for him, but then he tried to take it back later which was a very dumb move. While I'm telling unpleasant truths to UD about ID, I'll add these: ID is not a new, upstart idea that's revolutionizing science. It's a very old idea, older than Jesus, that started to fall apart in the 19th century and was killed dead by Darwin in 1859 and many others before (Darwin's Grandfather, for instance) and since (just about every biologist in the world). After about ten years of following ID, here, on ARN, on a few other ID websites and after reading three books by Dembski, both books by Behe, Johnathan Well's terrible book, Gonzalez's Privileged Planet and a few others whose titles don't come to mind at this moment, including that terrible book by that late Australian, Broome, that Denyse loves so much, I have yet to find even one ID advocate who understands how evolution is supposed to work. I'm not just saying they don't believe evolution works, I'm saying that no ID advocate I've seen even understands how it is claimed to work. (Which explains a lot about ID right there.) ID is not a mechanistic theory because it has no mechanistic theory nor any idea of what one would even look like. You say a designer created life as we know it? How? When? Evolution can answer those questions, at least in part, and is actively filling in the blank spaces in our knowledge. ID isn't even trying. Nobody in ID can even propose an experiment that might confirm or falsify ID. How could they if an intelligent designer can account for any possible result? Gil, you hang glide so I won't question your courage and I've played your checkers game so I won't question your intelligence or programming ability, but when it comes to ID, you have a fixed idea in your head and it twists your thinking and blinds your eyes to any evidence that contradicts ID. This idee fixe makes you think that hundreds of thousands of biologists are either stupid, ignorant or dishonest and that they have all joined together in a vast centuries long conspiracy to fool the world, apparently so they can deny God. This is nonsense. Test me. TRY to describe ID to your father. Just try to put your beliefs into words once and explain ID to him as best you can and see what he thinks.djmullen
April 17, 2009
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Mr Dodgen, you did work in this area. Could your programs play better checkers than you could?
Yes, and a calculator adds, multiplies, takes square roots, and does trigonometric calculations far more efficiently and accurately than I. But this is not intelligence or creativity. My checkers program is not much different. It searches more than a million moves per second, while a human searches perhaps three or four. The program also includes a vast human-generated opening book, and an endgame database which is flawless and includes billions of positions, which required more than 16,000,000,000,000,000 CPU clock cycles over a period of several months to compute, and which can be accessed instantaneously with highly efficient database access algorithms. Humans can no longer compete with this, because sooner or later they overlook something that the computer program does not. The same is now true in the game of chess.GilDodgen
April 16, 2009
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Mr SCheesman, That's an interesting position. Just as I've heard several people on this site say, "Oh, we all accept micro-evolution, it is macro-evolution that is impossible!", it seems you are claiming that Darwinian processes work fine in areas outside biology, but fails in dealing with organic chemistry. If so, I really don't understand why so many words have been wasted on Weasel on other threads, or why Mr Dodgen made the claim he did to which I responded. It would seem that several influential people in the ID community, including Dr Dembski and Dr Marks, believe either that Darwinian evolution cannot work at all, even in computational settings, or that investigating the conditions for success/failure informs the nature of what Darwinian evolution can do in biological settings. I am reminded of how success by AI researchers has always been met by the reply that 'real intelligence' is something else than what they just showed a machine can do. Computer checkers and chess were examples of 'machine intelligence' until they beat us, then they were 'brute force search'. :) Mr Dodgen, you did work in this area. Could your programs play better checkers than you could?Nakashima
April 16, 2009
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djmullen:
First it said that specified complexity was an indicator of design, but that’s exactly what Darwinian evolution produces... So Behe suggested Irreducible Complexity, but it turns out that Darwinian Evolution can produce that too!
Surely you jest. David Kellogg:
Gil, if your father has no interest in ID, does he have any views on evolution?
When I was growing up my parents talked about Haeckel's embryos, the horse sequence, bacterial antibiotic resistence, etc. To the best of my knowledge, they never evolved beyond that, or demonstrated any further interest in the topic.GilDodgen
April 16, 2009
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Nakashima:
The Darwinian mechanism found results in 2 hours that uninformed search would be expected to take 10 billion years to find. The results are far better than the results produced by any human mathematician.
Darwinian mechanisms and genetic algorithms are highly efficient at locating solutions in well-behaved and mostly-continuous fitness landscapes. You can trace the path it takes from the starting conditions to the final solution like a string of pearls selected from a near-infinite collection of possible solutions and paths. That is why the search is so efficient, and why a machine can vastly outperform "clever" humans when dealing with a multitude of variables with unpredictable (except to a mathematical processor) interactions. No new information is created, it is discovering by clever search algorithms what already exists. Useful genetic code "solutions", on the other hand, are like dark moons, separate by light-years drifting through solution space, while the rest of space is filled with non-functional junk. There is no helpful gradient, and one cannot in general (and except in the extremely limited form found in cases like bacterial resistance) reach out and hope to find another nearby that's functional in a usefully different way. Real, complex, specified information is like that.SCheesman
April 16, 2009
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GilDodgen: "The nicer the name, the more you should be suspicious. If a country had the name, “Republic of Altruistic Personal Enhancement,” you could probably guess what you would get." They're called "euphemisms." The Nazi's were masters of the euphemism in order to convince their victims that they intended good. So "showers" were actually gas chambers; "special treatment" was actually imprisionment in concentration camps and eventual murder, which was called "liquidation." Of course I'm aware that this is an extreme example, and I'm not using this to suggest that the use of euphemisms is necessarily evil.CannuckianYankee
April 16, 2009
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Sure, I understand your position there, Tim. We could imagine, for example, a hypothetical where a legislator sponsors an indisputably secular law, maybe an environmental bill of some kind, on religious grounds. The sponsor might say something in the legislative history like "I sponsored this bill because I believe the Bible directs us to take care of the environment." The legislator's purpose is clearly religious, but no reasonable court would say it's a first amendment violation. I think that's because the legislator did not intend for the legislation to "advance religion," as Kitzmiller put it. In any case, Kitzmiller--and the cases cited in Kitzmiller, including Edwards (with regards to the "public statements" of the sponsor of the law at issue in that case)--appear to have rejected the "plain language" approach. I can appreciate what you're saying, though. Thanks for your comments.Ludwig
April 16, 2009
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Ludwig, Thank you for the clarification. I would only add that the rulings you cited may have been wrongly applied in Kitzmiller. The ruling in Kitzmiller apparently allowed that statements concerning proponent's motivations somehow inhered in the measure in question rather than simply informing it. More to the point, if one of the Texas proponents is a dyed in the wool YEC, that remains irrelevent in terms of legislative history. " . . .statements by a measure’s sponsors and chief proponents are strong indicia of such [legislative]purpose" I added "legislative" because I believe it to be the antecedent. The strong indicia of the statements are (or I say, should be) only concerned with legislative purpose, and legislative purpose can only be located in the law. Such statements are helpful in providing context and theoretical applicability of the measure in question, but that should be where the story ends.Tim
April 16, 2009
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Tim, That issue was addressed in Kitzmiller, specifically at 90-132, available here: http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf For example, in footnote 20:
with regard to Defendants’ contention that we should exclude individual Board members’ statements from the legislative history on the ground that they are not full pronouncements by the Board, the Supreme Court has consistently held not only that legislative history can and must be considered in ascertaining legislative purpose under Lemon, but also that statements by a measure’s sponsors and chief proponents are strong indicia of such purpose. McCreary, 125 S. Ct. at 2734 (although courts do not engage in “psychoanalysis of a drafter’s heart of hearts,” they routinely and properly look to individual legislators’ public statements to determine legislative purpose); Edwards, 482 U.S. at 586-88 (reliance upon a statute’s text and the detailed public comments of its sponsor when determining the purpose of a state law requiring creationism to be taught alongside evolution).
The court also rejected the "plain language" approach you guys seem to be advocating. The "purposes" that are intended by the rulemakers are relevant. Of course, Kitzmiller isn't binding law in a district court in Texas, but a Texas district court would have to give it serious consideration and find some really good reasons to get around it in order to avoid reversal on appeal to the Fifth Circuit.Ludwig
April 16, 2009
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Ludwig, thank you for the Lemon test background. I believe you are mistaken in applying the first prong to any alleged religious motivations for the action. From http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/establishment/index.aspx, Using the Lemon test, a court must first determine whether the law or government action in question has a bona fide secular purpose. This prong is based on the idea that government should only concern itself in civil matters, leaving religion to the conscience of the individual. A "bona fide secular purpose" is sought for in the law or action NOT in the motivations of the proponents of the law. It is backward thinking to say that the apparent bona fide secular purpose in the action should be called into question because of any alleged religious motivations of the proponents of the action. Oh crud, DonaldM has beat me to it in #11! I'm posting anyway!!Tim
April 16, 2009
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DonaldM
Regardless of the motives, the new standards in Texas clearly advance a secular purpose.
I probably could have been clearer. We can't analyze the constitutionality of the standards "regardless of the motives" behind them because those motives are part of the Lemon analysis. Even if the standards are facially secular, if the motives for passing them are religious, they're suspect. If the YECs on the Texas board understood that, they would keep their mouths shut.
The Lemon test is irrelevant to the Texas standards . . . .
Justice Scalia might agree with you about that. But it's not the law of this country as it stands. If the Texas standards are scrutinized by a federal court, evidence of the religious motivations of the board members will almost certainly be considered. (The Fifth Circuit has never discussed the Lemon case as far as I can tell. I suppose it's possible a rogue district court judge could refuse to apply it.) If it does consider those motivations, the YECs on the board--particularly McLeroy--have given the plaintiffs plenty of ammunition.Ludwig
April 16, 2009
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mikev6, In the '60's, the Grateful Dead did a song called "The Eleven" (lyrics by Robert Hunter). One line was - No more time to tell how, this is the season of what. Perhaps it is not really possible to abandon the hope that we will be able to explain the "How?", but, with all the constant surprise at the complexity that is being discovered seemingly daily in nature, and especially biological life forms, wouldn't it be better to look at these things with the assumption that they are, in fact, designed, and try and understand the "What"? Certainly it can't help to intone the Crick mantra (it's not designed, it's not designed). I'm not a researcher, but I can't see how that could possibly help.Jack Golightly
April 16, 2009
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Though I support ID I am not sure if schools are the right place to have this battle. Do we really think that High School students are capable of analysing all the data when we can’t yet convince the establishment? Consider another recent science paradigm shift in Plate Tectonics, that idea didn’t gain acceptance because it was in school text books. The establishment was convinced and that is what we have to do. Peer reviewed papers are the way to go and I am glad Dr Dembski (and others of course) are choosing that approach.GSV
April 16, 2009
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Besides, you don't think Dawkins would properly represent the Republic for Altruistic Personal Enhancement?PaulN
April 16, 2009
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DK:
PaulN: keeping it classy.
I only aim to be as classy as PZ or Dickie D.PaulN
April 16, 2009
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Gil: Nice try, but look again. I did, but it hasn't gotten any bigger. I want my money back :(.tragic mishap
April 16, 2009
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PaulN says:
Something tells me Dawkins would be the most appropriate candidate for sitting at the throne of the Darwinian R.A.P.E. committee.
PaulN: keeping it classy.David Kellogg
April 16, 2009
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Gil,
If a country had the name, “Republic of Altruistic Personal Enhancement,” you could probably guess what you would get.
This has to be hands down the funniest statement I've seen on this website. Well done Haha. Something tells me Dawkins would be the most appropriate candidate for sitting at the throne of the Darwinian R.A.P.E. committee. After all he's king of philosophically justifying altruistic and humanitarian purpose. Oh wait, or was it called archeo-purpose? ...neo-purpose? ....anti-purpose? pentagonal arachno-purpose? Bah. Either way, he's a really cool guy, and he's smart, so everyone needs to listen to him.PaulN
April 16, 2009
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GilDodgen @ 9: "You have mysteriously missed the entire point. ID is not a theory of mechanism, as is materialistic evolutionary theory. ID is a theory of design detection." But ID is a theory that can't detect design! First it said that specified complexity was an indicator of design, but that's exactly what Darwinian evolution produces. Then it was the Explanitory Filter, but if you feed the Designer into it, it says the Designer was designed. And you CAN'T feed Darwinian evolution into the EF because the EF can only handle something that's either random OR something that's determined. There is literally no way to feed standard two step random variation and natural selection into it. So Behe suggested Irreducible Complexity, but it turns out that Darwinian Evolution can produce that too! ID has nothing left but "That looks designed to me."djmullen
April 16, 2009
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Domoman commented:
Even if there were to be no alternative ideas/theories in play, it would be more honest and better the furthering of science and discovery if we simply ventured off into new territory for explaining life. That such a venture is even opposed is quite unfortunate and detrimental. Talk about a science stopper.
Except that ID doesn't appear to have any explanatory power, other than to suggest the possible existence of some shadowy unknown entity. The most obvious next question ("how does this entity operate?") has never been addressed AFAIK, and the sole research direction always seems to be directed back at "Darwinism" under the assumption that there are only two possible explanations for life's diversity rather than looking for direct empirical evidence for one's own theory. Rather than being "opposed" by some external force, it almost seems to me that ID is limiting itself (Oh - we only *detect* design); a kind of passive-aggressive approach to science that seems totally at odds with my experience of how science normally works.
alternative ideas and theories should always be welcomed. And especially welcomed if they better explain the data.
I doubt that most readers of the UD forum would think that *all* alternative ideas are equally valid, or that *all* ideas should be presented to students. An alternative theory gets a certain level of leeway as a hypothesis, but eventually the expectation to pony up the data happens, and it has to stand on its own. Again, as an outside observer, ID seems more "anti-Darwin" than "pro-ID", and even taking controversies into account, ID does not seem to have the explanatory breadth to better fit the current data without raising more questions than it answers.mikev6
April 15, 2009
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Mr GilDodgen, The “grand claim” is that the Darwinian mechanism can create highly sophisticated computer programs and human consciousness, with hopelessly inadequate probabilistic resources. I'm wondering how you explain the success of Darwinian mechanisms in papers such as human competitive results in finite algebra. The Darwinian mechanism found results in 2 hours that uninformed search would be expected to take 10 billion years to find. The results are far better than the results produced by any human mathematician. This is not a case where anyone can say the programmers knew the answer, or coded it into the program.Nakashima
April 15, 2009
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Gil, if your father has no interest in ID, does he have any views on evolution? Looking back, I see I asked the question in both ways.David Kellogg
April 15, 2009
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mikev6, If neo-Darwinism is in such ruins that it cannot realistically ever become anything more than what it currently is, that is, a theory in ruins, then it should be rejected. Even if there were to be no alternative ideas/theories in play, it would be more honest and better the furthering of science and discovery if we simply ventured off into new territory for explaining life. That such a venture is even opposed is quite unfortunate and detrimental. Talk about a science stopper. Whether neo-Darwinism is really even in ruins would be obviously up for debate, but even if it wasn't alternative ideas and theories should always be welcomed. And especially welcomed if they better explain the data.Domoman
April 15, 2009
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Thanks. The acronym is obvious (and implied in the term "acronym").David Kellogg
April 15, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Gil, I’ve been trying to ask you a question for a while, but I think it keeps getting lost in the shuffle. If you have time, I’d love a response.
To the best of my knowledge, my father is completely unaware of ID theory. He is 87 and this is a subject that would not be of interest to him, so we have never discussed it. By the way, so far no one has guessed the acronym. Who gets the prize?GilDodgen
April 15, 2009
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