Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Wistar Convention, Salem Hypothesis and Music

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einstein violin

The most well-known recorded clash between non-biologists and biologists over evolutionary theory was at Wistar 1966 :

a handful of mathematicians and biologists were chattering over a picnic lunch organized by the physicist, Victor Weisskopf, who is a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
and one of the original Los Alamos atomic bomb group, at his house in Geneva. `A rather weird discussion’ took place. The subject was evolution by natural selection. The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance. So wide was the rift that they decided to organize a conference, which was called Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution. The conference was chaired by Sir Peter Medawar, whose work on graft rejection won him a Noble prize and who, at the time, was director of the Medical Research Council’s laboratories in North London. Not, you will understand, the kind of man to speak wildly or without careful thought. In opening the meeting, he said: `The immediate cause of this conference is a pretty widespread sense of dissatisfaction about what has come to be thought of as the accepted evolutionary theory in the English-speaking world, the so-called neo-Darwinian theory. This dissatisfaction has been expressed from several quarters.”

Some of the most tenacious opponents of Darwinian evolution have been those outside of the discipline of biology, most notably engineers, mathematicians, physicists, and chemists.

I point to the Salem Hypothesis:

An education in the Engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to Creation/Intelligent Design viewpoints.

But what about musicians?

(The topic of music, math, computer science came up in Artificial Intelligence and the Game of Checkers. I sensed a great deal of interest in the topic so I’m opening this thread to air the discussion out. )

I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID. Seriously! It’s been my experience that at least in regards to people I meet on the internet there is a partial correlation. I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music.

There is a little nuance here however in that many with interest in the disciplines of engineering, math, and physics have interest in music. Here at UD, William Dembski, Gil Dodgen, and myself can play Chopin Etudes on the piano. Several of my math and computer science professors were accomplished musicians. My piano teacher was also a professor of mathematics. Albert Einstein, Edward Teller, and Richard Feynman were also accomplished musicians.

To support the correlation of computers, math, and music , consider this article: Society for Neuroscience

musical brain

Brain imaging research shows that several brain areas are larger in adult musicians than in nonmusicians. For example, the primary motor cortex and the cerebellum, which are involved in movement and coordination, are bigger in adult musicians than in people who don’t play musical instruments. The area that connects the two sides of the brain, the corpus callosum, is also larger in adult musicians.

music training can influence brain organization and ability. In fact, researchers actively are studying whether the brain changes observed in musicians enhance mental functions, including many not associated with music. While research is still in its early stages, some studies already suggest that this might be the case. For example, musically-trained adults perform better on word memory tests than other adults.

In addition to adults, children who take music lessons may experience advantages with respect to some cognitive skills. Preschoolers who had piano lessons for about six months perform better than other preschoolers on puzzle-solving tests. Researchers are trying to improve this music effect by adding other training components. One recent study found that second-graders who took piano lessons and played special computer math games score higher on math tests than children who played the math games but had English language instruction instead of piano lessons. Scientists now are testing whether the addition of another set of lessons, which incorporates the computer game into a school’s standard math program, will boost the young pianists’ math scores even more. Preliminary findings indicate that second-graders who received this version perform as well as fourth-graders in fractions, ratios, symmetry, graphs, and other pre-algebra problems.

Finally platonic ideals are also the antithesis of Darwinian evolution, but very friendly to mathematics, music, information science and ID.

How “real” are the objects of a mathematician’s world? From one point of view it seems there can be nothing real about them at all.Mathematical objects are just concepts;they are the mental idealizations that mathematicians make,often stimulated by the appearance and seeming order of aspects of the world about us,but mental idealizations nevertheless. Can they be other than mere arbitrary constructions of the human mind? At the same time there often does appear to be some profound reality about these mathematical concepts,going quite beyond the mental deliberations of any particular mathematician.It is as though human thought is,instead,being guided towards some external truth – a truth which has a reality of its own,and is revealed only partially to any one of us.
….
Such categorizations are not entirely dissimilar from those that one might use in the arts or in engineering. Great works of art are indeed “closer to God” than are lesser ones.It is a feeling not uncommon among artists,that in their greatest works they are revealing eternal truths which have some kind of prior ethereal existence,while their lesser works might be more arbitrary,of the nature of mere mortal constructions.

Likewise,an engineering innovation with a beautiful economy,where a great deal is achieved in the scope of the application of some simple,unexpected idea, might appropriately be described as a discovery rather than an invention.

Having made these points,however,I cannot help feeling that,with mathematics,the case for believing in some kind of ethereal,eternal existence,at least for the more profound mathematical concepts,is a good deal stronger than in those other cases.There is a compelling uniqueness and universality in such mathematical ideas which seems to be of quite a different order from that which one could expect in the arts or or engineering.The view that mathematical concepts could exist in such a timeless,ethereal sense was put forward in ancient times (c.360 BC) by the great Greek philosopher Plato.Consequently,this view is frequently referred to as mathematical Platonism [Ref: Davis & Hersh “The Mathematical Experience” {Platonism}].It will have considerable importance for us later.

Roger Penrose
Mathematical Physicst, Emperor’s New Mind

Thus, since music is something of a platonic form, I would presume that there will be a slight correlation between the love of music and the love of intelligent design.

Comments
Karen: I didn't mean to say that music is just "discovered", and I CERtainly didn't mean to say that "the designer" just comes along and plants the ideas in the composer's head. I think the process is essentially mysterious, and probably not uniform at all: in other words, there are probably differing levels of "inspiration" for different composers and even different compositions of the same composer. Also, I don't have any ideas about what this inspiration is composed of. I just know that many composers claim to work in this way, and it is well known that scientists have made significant discoveries in inspirational states as well. My experience with modern composers is that in general their work is far more intellectual and less inspired. That is also why it remains obscure and unloved and will probably be soon forgotten. I think that a lot of art occurs through inspiration from higher spheres or regions of creation. Artists must strive with all of their energy to master the material means through which to express these inspirations, and through this process of striving for mastery, they refine their ability to "recieve". Depending upon their inner purity and their giftedness, they can recieve more or less abundantly. It seems that many artists today are only able to pass on the most grotesque and debasing imagery, and I would attribute this to their lack of inner purity of intent or the overweeningly intellectual approach to everything which predominates today. They are perceptive about only the lowest and most perverted non-material conditions. The composer I was referring to specifically was Mozart. I cannot find the place I read this, although it might have been in his published correspondence in which he insists that he merely writes down what he hears in his head. I know that much of the personal characterization of Mozart which was in the film Amadeus is taken from his correspondance, which is a real treat to read. I am going to find my copy, which is unfortunately in German, and try to locate the specific passage I am referring to... On the "hearing voices" issue": No. I don't hear voices. I am thankful to be sane. However, I have a relative who was in the hospital dying from the effects of alcohol withdrawal. I went to visit him, and he was fast asleep when I entered the room. I sat down at his bedside, and began reading a copy of Phillip Johnson's book Darwin on Trial. (How weird that I am relating this unrelated story on this website, and it just happens to involve an ID book!) Anyway, I am sitting there reading away, and as I am reading, I am thinking to myself about the whole issue of the implications of materialism for the greater question of the meaning of life, and how the question of origins and evolution hinges on this philosophical territory, and all of a sudden, my sleeping relative wakes up and starts babbling in this strange voice (which was not his own) "There is nothing. THere is no meaning. There is no God. Its an accident, we are all accidents. There is nothing." This went on for about 2-3 minutes, and every hair on my body was standing on end. I know that the skeptic will say "Oh, he wasn't really sleeping, he saw what you were reading", etc. But i know what I know. He was sleeping, and the dark entities around him could see and experience my thoughts. They used him, "Posessed" him, momentarily because in his weakened state he could offer no resistance, and they communicated with me. Call me crazy, but that was my experience... tinabrewer
Wow, that's pretty scary. Do you personally hear voices from the departed or whomever? Is the identity of the disembodied souls known? btw, I was wondering if you could tell me which composers your are referring to here, in a previous post on this same thread: "Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply “receivers” for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Anyway, if composers don't really compose music attributed to them, why are there classes in musical composition? Part-writing is a part of music theory. And why is it relatively easy to identify the period in which a piece was composed? Music isn't composed in a vacuum, but in a time and culture. Also, music is often composed by commission. Sometimes a composer writes music with the skill level of a particular performing group in mind—e.g. Bach’s Brandenburg Concerti. Another example would be the part of Papageno in the Magic Flute—written by Mozart for a particular singer with a very limited range. Also, in opera, the libretto is written before the composer sets it to music. That's a summary of why I don't believe that music is just "discovered." Thanks -Karen Karen
Hi Karen! I think the mentally ill must be distinguished from the clairvoyant, who see "the beyond" without being overwhelmed or possessed by it. They have a talent, to one degree or another, to look consciously into the fabric of non-material life, which is inhabited and animated by human souls not currently incarnated on earth. The mentally ill, by contrast, have suffered some unnatural deficit or destruction of the normal barriers or boundaries which separate us from this beyond, and are totally at the mercy of the influences there, most of which are not beautiful. This causes them to be, at times, completely overwhelmed by this influence to the extent that their free will is taken away. I have personally witnessed a quite dramatic episode of this type, and it is quite frightening. Materialist psychology makes the same false assumptions which all of materialist science does, namely that all phenomena are reducible to material components. This causes them frequently to miss the most obvious explanations for things. In my opinion... tinabrewer
TINA SAID, "Karen: if you are still following this thread: regarding the insane, yes, I believe they hear the voices of disembodied souls who occasionally urge them to do violence, but most often are merely intrusive and petty from our perspective, devastating to the peace of the mentally ill person. And yes, that is why we lock them up, as we should." Are you saying that these people are not mentally ill, that instead the voices they hear are real and not imagined? Do you think it's possible for "normal" people to contact disembodied souls, if the mentally ill are already "gifted" with this ability? Karen
Karen: if you are still following this thread: regarding the insane, yes, I believe they hear the voices of disembodied souls who occasionally urge them to do violence, but most often are merely intrusive and petty from our perspective, devastating to the peace of the mentally ill person. And yes, that is why we lock them up, as we should. tinabrewer
"Yes, there seems to be a physiological difference in the way the brain deals with instrumental versus vocal music." Please, what do you mean? Karen
Here's an excellent article on music from Natural History Magazine. It's even uplifting! It gives a wide range of scientific views on the topic, and has lots of good information and interesting anecdotes. It explains that far from being a frill, music gives us some definite advantages. I only wish that this link included the wonderful pictures that were in the printed magazine. Face the Music: Why are we such a musical species — and does it matter? By Susan Milius http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/1201/1201_feature.html Karen
"Karen: also, who says that the mentally ill are hearing “imaginary” voices? I think it is equally plausible to assume that they, due to their illness, are exposed without protection to actual psychic content from an invisible beyond, which content they lack the capacity to filter out, thus their illness… " Tina, You mean they hear real voices? What about the cases when the voices are ordering the patient to kill? Isn't that the reason why the criminally insane are locked up? Karen
great ape: thanks for your thoughtful response. I disagree with you about whether aging is essentially benevolent or not, and while it is certainly true that age itself is accompanied by increasing errors and erosion of information, there continues to be much debate about the degree to which these processes are a result of aging itself (primary process) and which are a result of bad/below ideal conditions of the individual (stress) and the environment. Someone who is a happily married non-smoker who exercises regularly and eats a diet high in vegetables and low in animal fats has a very high chance of retaining most cognitive and physical functions into old age, with cognitive slowdowns particularly only becoming evident after like 80-85 years. Simple lifestyle factors, most particularly movement and activity, have profound positive effects upon primary aging. So, if what I am saying is correct, that the organism actually is MEANT to have these years, you have a couple of choices: one would be to say that there is more to life BY INTENTION than reproductive success, another would be to say 'yeah. you live those extra years so you can help with your kids' kids in order to increase overall reproductive success. Theres no way around the difference between a reductionist view and an idealist view. There just isn't. Interestingly, Zachriel, in his response to my post, correctly notes that one cannot simply "wave away" the selection benefits of musical/artistic ability. I wholeheartedly agree. I think anything which is good and uplifting will increase the attractiveness of an individual, and fulfill the material function of giving a selective advantage. Where I disagree is in going the next step and saying that just because something fulfills a lower-order function that therefore that lower function is the GENESIS of that quality. tinabrewer
trrll: now you're really being mean. No fun anymore. tinabrewer
I was being ironic. I was trying to say that IF it is true that the latter half of our lives are just empty years in terms of even the narrow “meaning” allowed by NDE, then those years stink. I actually think they are great years, and find it funny that the reductionism of NDE requires that all of the things which are most beautiful, powerful and meaningful in human life must be thought of as ‘extras’ which came about without purpose or intent beyond reproductive advantage.
It is hard for me to imagine how empty somebody's life must be to feel that the latter years of their life "stink" unless some external source gives them purpose. trrll
great_ape wrote: tina, the intrinsic aging of cells can and does generate diseases. mistakes accumulate, information erodes, and ultimately cancer or organ-level failure ensues.
Tina, The aging of cells is actually a mystery because it seems they should have the capacity for very long life. Here is an essay I wrote on the topic of aging. Since we talk about platonic ideals and their relation to music, I suppose one could inquire if there are platonic ideals for life, or least hints of them. Here is my personal view on the issue: Geron corporation, human immortality, Genesis. Salvador scordova
tina: "Actually, primary aging, which is defined as the intrinsic aging of the cells and the body as separate from secondary aging which includes disease processes, is actually a benevolent process." tina, the intrinsic aging of cells can and does generate diseases. mistakes accumulate, information erodes, and ultimately cancer or organ-level failure ensues. This is a strange benevolence, in my opinion, and does not indicate a graceful and orchestrated decline. Certain healthy lifestyle choices can mitigate many of these effects, particularly for some genetically blessed individuals, but ultimately this atrophy will occur. The byproducts of normal, healthy metabolic processes yield genetic damage. tina: "If what you say about “reproductive advantage” governing everything is true, none of these experiences have intrinsic merit and purpose." The notion of "intrinsic meaning and purpose" is quite heavily laden with philosophical implications. I can not speak for all, but I strongly suspect most evolutionists make no attempt to derive "intrinsic meaning and purpose" from evolutionary theory. I do not derive my purpose or meaning from any darwinian fitness concept, and aside from a few misguided zealots, I don't suspect anyone is seriously encouraging anyone to do so. You suggest that the "intrinsic meaning" of the later stages of life must be, if it is to have meaning at all, provided by an outside "design" since it has no reproductive value and hence can not derive purpose in a darwinian sense. In some senses of "intrinsic meaning," I believe you are correct. We can not ask evolution to provide anything beyond a naturalistic explanation for why such and such is as it is. Meaning and purpose for us as human beings must come from elsewhere. In my opinion, we collectively weave such meaning and purpose ourselves. Evolution only provides the raw substrate we have to work with. great_ape
Karen: also, who says that the mentally ill are hearing "imaginary" voices? I think it is equally plausible to assume that they, due to their illness, are exposed without protection to actual psychic content from an invisible beyond, which content they lack the capacity to filter out, thus their illness... tinabrewer
Karen: I was being ironic. I was trying to say that IF it is true that the latter half of our lives are just empty years in terms of even the narrow "meaning" allowed by NDE, then those years stink. I actually think they are great years, and find it funny that the reductionism of NDE requires that all of the things which are most beautiful, powerful and meaningful in human life must be thought of as 'extras' which came about without purpose or intent beyond reproductive advantage. tinabrewer
bfast: "I still find it difficult to think that the peacock’s tail offers more help in getting a mate than it does harm in making the bird more vulnerable to predation." Says the peacock, "I still find it difficult to think that the woman's large breasts offer more help in getting a mate than it does harm in making the person more vulnerable to predation." tinabrewer: "What you guys are not responding to is the basic idea that there are so many many things in the world which make no sense and serve no purpose when seen from the reductionist perspective of a purely materialist process like natural selection." A scientific theory may not have universal application and may even have significant gaps. The Theory of Evolution makes a variety of strong empirical predictions and is certainly considered a valid theory by the vast majority of scientists in the relevant specialties. But science has had only marginal success at generating a full explanation of consciousness. We can say with some confidence that consciousness has a survival benefit. We can also say that music and the arts help create social cohesion which is certainly of benefit to the group. We can also say that, just like the peacock's tail, the arts can act as a strong indicator of intelligence and sensitivity. So much so that in many traditional societies, people were expected to develop artistic skills as a signature of being a good "match". I don't think you can wave away the evidence of the possible selectable benefits of these traits. However, the scientific explanation of how these traits are expressed, as I indicated, are far from complete. Aesthetics and other such areas of interest often bend to philosophical inquiry rather than the scientific. Zachriel
Did you mean to exclude vocal music?
Yes, there seems to be a physiological difference in the way the brain deals with instrumental versus vocal music. Also while a music student, there was definitely a divide between singers and instrumentalists and composers. To be sure there were some that were talented in all fields. I seem to recall seeing a diagram that put singing as a right-brained activity. However, I would welcome any data if a correction is in order. scordova
Karen wrote: What is YOUR explanation, Tina? Were you designed this way? It’s not very nice of the designer to drive you crazy.
Karen, your line of discussion seems a bit like an interrogation, and a bit too personal. You are free to offer a few offtopic opinions, but I would prefer you not start badgering other participants on some of their side comments. It's not the kind of conversation that is of interest to the rearders I'm trying to draw to this discussion. Regarding the problem of evil, I have been preparing an essay on the problem of evil, so you can hold off till then. Thanks. Salvador scordova
"Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply 'receivers' for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. This also strongly implies that some non-material, essential substance which contains information exists, and that this information can be received and formed into works in matter." -Tina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which composers are you thinking of, Tina? Novel ideas can pop into our heads without a designer explicitly putting them there. And if someone claims he is hearing something from the great beyond, it doesn't really demonstrate that the other party is really sending messages. The Roman Catholic church doesn't endorse every alleged Marian apparition/communication (and there are many claims of this sort). Also, mentally ill people routinely hear imaginary voices in their heads, often commanding them to do things that are not right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Now that I know this information, should I (since I already HAVE a mate, and am DONE reproducing) just relax and quit all this seeking and striving which drives me from day to day? If the evolutionary mechanism is so exquisite that its blindness can explain Beethoven’s Ninth, how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy…" -Tina ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is YOUR explanation, Tina? Were you designed this way? It's not very nice of the designer to drive you crazy. Karen
This might be interesting to some of us: The Singing Neanderthals: The Origins of Music, Language, Mind, and Body by Steven Mithen, with a review here. Carlos
"I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID. Seriously! It’s been my experience that at least in regards to people I meet on the internet there is a partial correlation. I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music." -Salvador ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did you mean to exclude vocal music? Stephen Jay Gould sang with a choir,and in his "This View of Life" column in Natural History magazine, he even wrote about participating in a performance of Haydn's oratorio "The Creation" and Bach's "St. Matthew Passion." The column was a bit different, I'll admit, but extremely interesting nevertheless. (And these are 2 of my very favorite compositions.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There is a little nuance here however in that many with interest in the disciplines of engineering, math, and physics have interest in music. " -Salvador ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note that Beethoven, one of our greatest composers, couldn't do math-- not even subtraction! Karen
I would like to thank all the commenters here vrakj, tinabrewer, zachariel,trrll, John Davison, and quite a number of others for their patience with the system. I've been trying to empty the spam filter every hour, and I'm seeing your all's comments trapped every now an then. "Affection Starved Houswives" and insurance salesmen have been flooding the site of late, and to protect UD, we've had to raise the computerized tolerance threshhold pretty high. That means there will be some delay as we sort through the garbage looking for the good. I would plead with the commentors to save copies of what they write before they hit the submit button. I am working on the problem. I probably canned almost 400 unwanted intrusions yesterday alone. The system is a bit clumsy, and I may inadvertently delete a comment -- I haven't so far, but please save copies until after you see them posted at UD. I will make an effort to honor the efforts by the participants. Salvador scordova
Trrll/Zachriel/Great Ape: What you guys are not responding to is the basic idea that there are so many many things in the world which make no sense and serve no purpose when seen from the reductionist perspective of a purely materialist process like natural selection. That you are content to dismiss everything which falls into this enormous rubric as a "extra" which you get to enjoy but which has no substantive content outside of this baffles me. It makes far more sense to imagine that these things exist for intrinsic reasons of their own. great ape: I disagree quite explicitly with your notion that the conditions of the elderly are just the "too bad" by-products of a merciless process. Actually, primary aging, which is defined as the intrinsic aging of the cells and the body as separate from secondary aging which includes disease processes, is actually a benevolent process. Secondary aging is largely preventable through appropriate lifestyle choices, and it seems quite clear that a "natural" ideal is living to a ripe age, nearly fully functional, and dying quickly from an infectious illness (or some variant thereof). Lest you think I am reversing my position about the "25 useless years" I am not. There, I was primarily referring to the creative process by which those who have passed the child-rearing years are able to make , substantive contributions to society and culture, as well as to their personal and spiritual development which often proceeds at an intensified rate in older age as people come to gain wisdom and perspective. If what you say about "reproductive advantage" governing everything is true, none of these experiences have intrinsic merit and purpose. Again, in your view this is all nice fun for the individual. To me, it makes far more sense that life itself is geared toward, and provides the necessary foundations for, enrichment, culture and the spiritual life. Reproduction is one value, but not the source of all. trrll: I know its way off topic, but seeping into your opposition to the idea of design seems to be the conflict you feel over the question of suffering and disease, which you see as either "the arbitrary choices of some supposed Designer" or necessary by-products of a blind and purposeless process. If those were the only two choices, I would wholeheartedly agree with you that the superior choice is the materialist one. Although these speculations are asides to the question of "is life designed intelligently?" they are inevitable and interesting second-order questions. tinabrewer
Tally so far in our little UD community: IDers with musical and engineering/math backgounds: Bill Dembski GilDodgen Salvador Cordova Atom lucID Sladjo Jack Golightly Maledil Scott IDer with Engineer background: DaveScot IDer EBer with musical background John Davison non-IDers with musical backgounds: Allen MacNeill curtrozeboom Thank you everyone who responded. Corrections and more input are welcome. I don't think I have sufficient data to make a music-ID engineer connection, but the impression over the years from both sides of the issue has been that there is something to the Salem Hypothesis. In percentages, my guesstimate is that less than 1% of biologists are pro-ID, and the other 99% are very much biased against it. I estimate about 30% of engineers are sympathetic to ID, and a good number simply don't care (i.e. how many engineers are authors at Pandas Thumb???). The 30% guess is based on the 33% of physicians being pro-ID based on a recent poll of physicians. Assuming engineers would be no less pro-ID than physicians, I put the number at 30% with the rest hardly caring one iota either way. Salvador scordova
tinabrewer: "Everything we do comes down to being more attractive to potential mates or surviving." Not everything. And not everything is determined by simplistic appeals to sexual attraction. People choose mates for a variety of reasons, including intelligence, social grace, loyalty, humor, gentleness. As there are myriad niches in human culture, so there are many types of people that can be valuable to the community. tinabrewer: "like living 25 pointless years filled with suffering and decreasing attractiveness" Many species die once reaching the end of their reproductive lives. Humans are different than many animals in this respect. Plausible explanations include the hypothesis that the elderly help with child-rearing leaving parents free to work on providing sustenance; and for the preservation and propagation of cultural knowledge between generations. Only in recent times have the elderly been relegated to a secondary status. In times past, they have been a primary source of wisdom and an expert source of historical knowledge. tinabrewer: "how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met?" I'm sorry, but nature cares little for whether the elderly are comfortable. Fortunately, the children and grandchildren do care sometimes. Zachriel
I am seeing a pattern. If something in this world is really incredible and wonderful, then natural selection is the genius responsible for it. However, if something sucks (like living 25 pointless years filled with suffering and decreasing attractiveness) then natural selection is too sloppy to find a way around it....Even if it were true what you say, (which I emphatically think it is not) why would anyone want to know about it?
Personally, I find natural selection incredible and wonderful even if it is not set up for my personal comfort and convenience. It is hardly the only aspect of nature that is like that. And I find my understanding of how both the positive and negative (from my individual perception) aspects of nature are inseparable parts of a single whole to be considerably more appealing than viewing such things as death, disease, and suffering as the arbitrary choices of some supposed Designer. And since they are the result of a mindless process, and not part of some grand Plan, I need have no reservations about seeking ways to treat disease and ease suffering. Similarly, I find that an understanding of gravity and its fundamental role in the wonders of the universe enables me to perceive the occasional trip-and-fall as something other than an expression of the animosity of the universe toward me personally. Besides, as a scientist, I simply find it fascinating. For me, the joy of striving to understand nature more than compensates for the inevitable sorrows of life. trrll
trrll: I am seeing a pattern. If something in this world is really incredible and wonderful, then natural selection is the genius responsible for it. However, if something sucks (like living 25 pointless years filled with suffering and decreasing attractiveness) then natural selection is too sloppy to find a way around it. In the end, you are left instinctively destroying everthing which is of real human value, which destruction is wrought by the nauseating reductionism of your philosophy. I always wonder "why?" Even if it were true what you say, (which I emphatically think it is not) why would anyone want to know about it? Much less INSIST on it? wouldn't it be better to maintain the working illusion that life has a higher purpose than reproduction, since by your own depressing accounting the miracle of natural selection has given us this illusion as a gift for survival? tinabrewer
tinabrewer: "...how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy…" there is no clear advantage to shutting down the human body programmatically, and there may be some small advantage, the so-called "grandmother effect," for having the elderly stay around and functional just long enough to contribute to their grandchildren's prospects. This is one of the current theories as to why the ApoE allele that is protective against alzheimer's disease may be in the process of replacing the apoeIV allele, which increases your chances for AD. (Many of us share the ancestral apoeIV allele with chimp.) Aging is one of those areas of biology where evolution does make a good deal of sense. Most of the protective mechanisms (from cancer, various aspects of organismal degeneration) are not robust enough to maintain the organism afte it passes its reproductive prime. Arguably, an intelligently and mercifully designed organism would be implemented with a number of elegant shut-down mechanisms. Instead, our bodies go through a bewieldering array of atrophies, many of which are terribly unpleasant. We can understand why evolution would be so inconsiderate of the elderly. Why a intelligent designer wouldn't implement a merciful shut-down procedure, however, does raise many a troubling question. great_ape
Gosh, that’s a great story. Thanks. Everything we do comes down to being more attractive to potential mates or surviving. Now that I know this information, should I (since I already HAVE a mate, and am DONE reproducing) just relax and quit all this seeking and striving which drives me from day to day? If the evolutionary mechanism is so exquisite that its blindness can explain Beethoven’s Ninth, how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy…
This is confusing to you because you are thinking in terms of intelligent design. An intelligent designer might well choose to shut down functions once they are of no more use. But natural selection does not really have any understanding of goals, so it has a tendency to be sloppy. A trait or behavior may be selectively favored because it increases fitness on the average, but natural selection will not "know" that that behavior is useless in a particular individual case. So "useless" behaviors get shut down only if they actually reduce fitness. Moreover, some of these behaviors are not as useless as they may seem. There is more to fitness than directly reproducing—fitness can also be increased by aiding one's family, who will tend to share many of the same genes. trrll
trrll: Gosh, that's a great story. Thanks. Everything we do comes down to being more attractive to potential mates or surviving. Now that I know this information, should I (since I already HAVE a mate, and am DONE reproducing) just relax and quit all this seeking and striving which drives me from day to day? If the evolutionary mechanism is so exquisite that its blindness can explain Beethoven's Ninth, how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy.... tinabrewer
Count myself as another engineer(software, to be precise)/musician/ID supporter. I've played guitar for 10 years, bass for 8, mandolin for 4, and I can also play the didgeridoo. Maleldil
..."And perhaps biologists are blind to the issue of Platonism because their work is more descriptive than theoretical (meaning mathematical)–not just because they have been appointed the high priests of atheism" - Pure The notion that there aren't mathematically astute evolutionary biologists is silly. There are few scientific fields that are more mathematically sophisticated than evolutionary biology. Flip through any issue of Evolution and you will find that on the order of half of the articles involve mathematical modeling. Beginning with Fisher, Wright and Haldane and continuing to the present, many/most major questions are framed in terms of mathematical models. It is hard to be a evolutinary biologist without some level of quantitative sophistication and there are a large number whose primary training is in a mathematical field. All the ID theorists together wouldn't equal(in quantity or quality) 1% of the working evolutionary biologists with a Ph.D. in a mathematical field. vrakj
Dan Levitan, a neuroscientist at Berkley (?) has written a book titled "This is our Brain on Music" about the relationship between music and the way the brain/mind deals with it. It's really quite good, weaving elements of science and art togehter. Judging from the commentary, there are a number of people here who would find it interesting and informative - if it wasn't for the fact that he ultimately uses the entire book to demonstrate that music is part of the evidence set supporting evoultion. Too bad. Pi Guy
This is a phenomenal investment in developmental and metabolic resources in order for creatures like us to think, feel, study nature, create works of art and explore space. It really does not accord well with Darwinian selection that such a structure like the human brain should exist to give us capacities so far beyond what would be needed to reproduce.
I suppose that this is true, if by "creatures like us" you intend to include all primates. For that matter, the number of genes is not greatly different for primates than for any vertebrates, so you'd probably have to include cows as well. A more cogent argument would be to look at the amount of energy consumed by the brain. In humans, it is about 20%. I don't know the numbers for other vertebrates, but it probably should be roughly proportional to brain volume. Excitable tissue like nerve and muscle is expensive to maintain, because they have to invest energy to build up ion gradients that are constantly being run down by the ion channels that give nerve and muscle cells their ability to exhibit electrical activity. However, you have a gross misconception of natural selection if you imagine that it only is expected to provide the capabilities that are "needed to reproduce." It is not mere reproduction that is favored by natural selection, but rather the ability to reproduce (or more accurately, propagate your genes) more successfully than other individuals of the same species. It is true that the advantage of a large brain needs to offset the cost—not merely the metabolic cost, which increases food requirements, but also greater maternal mortality because the vertebrate pelvis is not well designed for giving birth to such large-headed children, and also greater infant mortality, because a substantial part of brain growth must be postponed to after birth. The question of exactly which of the many advantages of a large brain were most responsible for the improved fitness that drove the rapid increase in primate brain capacity remains controversial. Of course, enhanced language and tool use are strong candidates, as well as the ability to support a complex social structure capable of passing down knowledge from generation to generation. It is even possible that there is an element of sexual selection—i.e. with the development of language, the use of language to attract a mate may have become important. But I've always been partial to Calvin's suggestion that enhanced throwing might have been one of the earliest benefits driving evolution of enlarged brains. It is clearly something that that other primates do, but that we do much better. It is an important part of play of all human cultures, suggesting that it is a fundamental behavior that our brains are wired to find highly rewarding. And it is plausible that simply providing more neurons to average out statistical fluctuations could improve throwing accuracy. It may well be that the rest of the brain got dragged along for the ride, like Gould's spandrels, simply because it is easier to find developmental mutations that increase the size of the whole brain than ones that only enhance the motor areas involved in throwing. trrll
Guess I'm one of the exceptions, if you don't mind a dissenting opinion. I have a BSE in Electrical Engineering with a double-major in CompSci. I work as a software engineer and I sing and play guitar. I have even worked up my own mathematical analysis of guitar music theory. But... I absolutely and completely reject intelligent design. And further, I would credit my experience with the design process to be one reason I reject it. I recognize that what evolution does in biology is an abstraction of what we do, subconsciously or consciously, when we design...or is it vice-versa? In other words, I just don't see design as "magical" hubris. I think trrll's post said it well, "there are infinite regress problems with the brain being aware of the entirety of its inner workings." curtrozeboom
Me too! Music major (theory and composition) till I had to make a living. Now my job title is Numerical Control Programmer, which, as the name implies, has to do with both math and computer programming. Been doing that for 25+ years, but still heavily involved with music. Also, in response to the list of "atheist" musicians, should we then list the musicians and composers who were devout believers? I suspect there is an imbalance here. In the vein of this post, has anyone read Dorothy Sayers "The Mind of the Maker"? Seems to be particularly relevant. Jack Golightly
John Singleton: I meant to respond to your "musical atheists" post earlier. I read the page, and my immediate impression was that the author was overly intent upon cheerleading atheists by conflating any form of unorthodox belief with atheism. Goethe could not by a long stretch be considered an atheist and certainly believed in the immortality of the soul (reincarnation to be precise). Also, one must keep in mind the spirit of the times: if one lives in an era in which one's choice is either rigid orthodoxy on the one hand and total non-belief on the other, I would imagine it would be a sign of an alert and spiritually advanced individual to have the courage to reject religion in such circumstances. tinabrewer
bfast wrote: I even think that the twelve note octive is the natural order of music, twelve being that wonderful number that is divisible so many ways. Twelve is a great number for creating all manner of cool patterns that our ears see as beautiful.
There are physical and mathematical reasons for this which would take hours to explain, but twelve is the optimal number which allows Circle of Fifths. Without getting into it, the harmonics we see in music have astonishing parallels to the harmonics we see at the quantum level. It's as if harmonics are woven into the fabric of nature. I was a music student before eventually completing undergraduate degress in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering (minor in Music), and Mathematics (minor in physics). When I studied physics and engineering I was astonished to see the fields permeated with studies of harmonics! It seemed I mearly left one field of music (piano) to study others (electrical engineering and physics. The way the western octave is divided into 12 makes mathematical sense. What is amusing, is that Oriental cultures which only had the pentatonic scale of 5 notes, after being put in touch with western music consumed western music with a passion. It seems these cultures finally discovered the notes that had been missing for many centuries. The president of the Japanese company Sony, for example, decided on the size of the audio CD based on the lenght of time it takes to hear one of Beethoven's major works. Music seems to have some qualities that transcends cultural influence, imho. It seems to permeate nature in many ways. In fact, this sentiment was expressed by Einstein when he praiesed the work of of Neils Bohr in atomic physics. Einstein said that Bohr's work was "the highest form of musicality in the sphere of thought". scordova
Thank you everyone for your comments especially those posting for the first time. Please be patient in seeing your comments appear. Our website is under constant spam attack. I now estimate for every 1 legitimate post 8 posts from insurance salesman or "affection starved housewives" or other spam sources attack this site. Sometimes our automatic spam filter will trap legitimate comments and put them into the trash pile. The process of extracting them from the computerized trash sometime take time, but please be assured, the authors and managment are sorting through the trash piles to rescue your comments! Geoffrey Miller (mentioned above) offered an interesting fact:
Brains are very complex, hard to grow, and expensive to maintain. Higher cortical functions can be easily disrupted by poor nutrition, disease, injury, and low status (leading to depression). Moreover, in primates, probably half of all genes are involved in brain growth, and perhaps a third a uniquely expressed in brain growth. This means that for humans, with about 100,000 genes, brain-indicators could reveal the state of up to 50,000 genes
(Miller's numbers are off for the 100,000 figure, but might actually be vindicated if large amounts of "junk DNA" play a large role in regulating brain development.) This is a phenomenal investment in developmental and metabolic resources in order for creatures like us to think, feel, study nature, create works of art and explore space. It really does not accord well with Darwinian selection that such a structure like the human brain should exist to give us capacities so far beyond what would be needed to reproduce. The capacity for man to think, to persue the discoveries in science and art seems ordained and designed from the beginning. After reading Penrose and Polkinghorne, I would have to consider myself a platonist, where the world of eternal ideal forms we discover in mathematics and art. The human brain seems highly optimized to discover these designs, and the amount of metabolic and other resources to develop and maintain the brain suggests that the brain's existence was by design, not the work of a blind watchmaker. One also sees this kind of extravagance in nature. Why should a caterpillar liquify itself in a cocoon and then reassemble itself into a new creature we call a butterfly. It makes no sense in terms of natural selection. Paley got it right. scordova
John Davison:
I still feel it is perfectly possible that the music was always there and was simply discovered by those who were “prescribed” to be granted that capacity. Since that was undoubtedly true for mathematics, why not for the arts as well?
I suspect that you are correct, that music, nearly as clearly as math, is more a discovery than an invention. I even think that the twelve note octive is the natural order of music, twelve being that wonderful number that is divisible so many ways. Twelve is a great number for creating all manner of cool patterns that our ears see as beautiful. Let me also suggest that the proliferation of animals that have developed a very musical call is proof of your premise. bFast
It’s interesting too how folks tend to be open or closed to certain ideas according to the discipline they’ve chosen. Physicists, as noted above, tend to be Platonists, whereas biologists tend to be fanatically addicted to “pure dumb luck”. Perhaps this is because you cannot do physics without some commitment to mathematical realism. And perhaps biologists are blind to the issue of Platonism because their work is more descriptive than theoretical (meaning mathematical)--not just because they have been appointed the high priests of atheism. Yet for ordinary people design leaps out from living things even more than from the laws of physics. Then there are the linguists who joke about “physics envy” (they crave the prestige of “Science”)—but do you think any would ever extend the physicist’s mathematical realism to the logic of natural language? Of course not! Perhaps it’s the physics envy. Physicists don’t so much have to worry about image. But what linguist wants to be scorned by Darwinists whose place in the academic pecking order seems more assured than his? Salvador brings up an interesting question. The safe bet is that we are products of heredity and environment and choice, but exactly how it all falls out is most interesting indeed. Rude
I still feel it is perfectly possible that the music was always there and was simply discovered by those who were "prescribed" to be granted that capacity. Since that was undoubtedly true for mathematics, why not for the arts as well? "Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source... They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres." Alice Calaprice, The New Quotable Einstein, page 204 "Everything is determined ... by forces over which we have no control." ibid, page 196 "A past evolition is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. Davison John A. Davison
Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply “receivers” for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. This also strongly implies that some non-material, essential substance which contains information exists, and that this information can be received and formed into works in matter.
To the neuroscientist, on the other hand, it merely suggests that the conscious mind is not the whole of the brain. This meshes with other research that shows, for example, that it is possible to detect a decision electrically before the time that a person becomes aware of having made the decision. Indeed, as Douglas Hofstadter has pointed out, there are infinite regress problems with the brain being aware of the entirety of its inner workings. trrll
Oh, here's another correlation with music y'all might be interested in. Dare I ask for anectdotal evidence of a connection here? :lol: DaveScot
Sal humans seek God because our brains are biologically programmed to do so. This notion has always interested me. I think about it along the lines of there being a survival advantage to religion. If there is then there might be some instinctual component to it. Learned behaviors that are beneficial sometimes (at least) become instinctual. And lest some chance worshipper think I'm confirming that I believe in evolution I will remind them that an instinctually religious human is still a human. :-) DaveScot
Okay Sal. I see your point. I never would have guessed that rappers like Ice-T, Schooly-D, Ice Cube, and 2Pac were talented at math and computer science but if you say so. And Kurt Cobain. Do they award Nobel prizes posthumously to misunderstood heroin addicts? And then of course there's Jimi Hendrix, one of the greatest musicians to ever live IMO. If he hadn't been so into music he probably could have unified general relativity and quantum field theory. Maybe Bill should write an ID book and target it to inner city gang members. He can make everything rhyme in it. It's all about recruiting the right people to market your product. :razz: DaveScot
bFast: "can NDE realistically explain beauty?” NDE cannot explain consciousness. If one considers that beauty, and any other state of consciousness is merely triggered by the brain and not the cause of it, then no, NDE cannot explain it, since it cannot explain consciousness. mike1962
"An education in the Engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to Creation/Intelligent Design viewpoints." I’m not familiar with Salem hypothesis, but I know for sure that Engineers knows very well what DESIGN means… They are designers… They know very well that no system (electrical, mechanical, thermal, you name it) will work well if it is not designed well… I work for a big contract manufacturer (electronic industry) and we have a Dept that is called “Design & Engineering”… One of my colleagues is a DFM analyst (DFM = Design For Manufacturability) and his role is to ensure that the printed circuit assemblies (like motherboards on PC’s) are WELL DESIGNED in order to be easily manufactured… We (engineers) know for sure that no engine, PC motherboard, or a cell phone has “evolved” – all that stuff had been DESIGNED… And, of course, all of that stuff HAVE A PURPOSE! My college background consists also of some knowledge in programming, so – like somebody already said – when I hear about “genetic code” I suspect instructions of some kind, a “program”… And my intuition is saying that no program can create itself, there must be a PROGRAMMER. About music: as a hobbies, I took some accordion lessons (not an easy instrument to play on), I was also a member of a dance ensemble, and now I’m a tenor in a choir… And yes, I’m embracing the ID philosophy. ;-) At the end: I believe that one of the most difficult impediment for NDE is exactly what – maybe - most religions on this planet are preaching: LOVE! Sladjo
I would like to introduce myself to Erasmus who posted the first response to this thread. While very definutely an evolutioary biologist, I am also a practicing paid musician although I do not belong to the union. I began playing the piano accordion at the age of 9 as I recall, primarily because we did not have a piano. I have performed at several retirement establishments in the Burlington area. I have also done weddings and birthdays. I do this primarily for fun and, being as old or older than many of the residents, find them receptive to my repertoire. I get 50 dollars for a forty minute gig which is a union hour, twenty minutes on / ten minutes off. However I play straight through and often go over. I even sing some much to the amusement of some of the residents. My voice is not what it used to be but then neither is Pavarotti's. I also now play the piano some mostly as therapy for the stress produced by forum communication. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. Davison
The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance.
Not only Mathematicians, but most people are just suspicious that unguided forces could produce the highly complex biological systems present in the world. Mats
bFast, thanks for post 17 & 18. I've always wondered about the issue you've described as a "signal to noise ratio". What is the likelihood that all the millions of mutations required by Neo Darwinian Evolution to get us from single cell to homo sapien, could each cause us to "sink or swim", when there are so many ways to die? I've read several times on this blog (from ID oppononents) about the importance of "testability". I wonder if the scientist (Lenski?) who's raised 35,000 generations of bacteria, has extrapolated his data to determine if the signals overcomes the noise? Or is this a naieve question by a non-scientist? russ
RE: BFast, Couldn't agree more. Atom
Hear, Hear Sal!!! I'm an engineer, ID'st and musician!!! If I wasn't so wrapped up in my job I'd be doing music for a living. I think your correllations just might have something to them. Although a wider data sampling might be in order (a little project for you, no???) nice post. lucID
Hmmm, the dear thing posted before I was done. The fact that my genetic mix is in many ways "below average" would likely have doomed me if I lived in a truly wild world. The wonderful beneficial mutation in my fingernails would have been lost. Bottom line, I believe that a mapping of the fitness landscape, and an accurate calculation of the amount of advantage that a mutation must bring to be welcomed into the fold of new alleles is an essential basic foundation for evolutionary biology. Evolutionary biology needs to get past "just so stories" and to the serious mathematical work of proving the validity of their science, rather than trying to prohibit all challengers. bFast
Atom, "we won’t be able to address those questions until a fitness landscape is mapped out, then we could objectively evaluate risks vs gains for various features. But as Prof. Koons points out in Uncommon Dissent, such a mapping has never occurred." I beleive that this shortcoming is caused by overconfidience on the part of the evolutionary camp. The whole question of signal-to-noise ratio would certainly be part of that mapping. I personally believe that the issue of signal-to-noise ratio is a big deal. For NDE to be true, complex systems must exist based upon individual mutational events. Each of these events most offer fractional benefit (they can be neutral, but getting anywhere with a bunch of neutral events seems, well, front-loaded.) However, at what point of fractional advantage is the advantage no longer detectable by NDE. Consider myself, for instance. In many ways I am a "below average" example of a human being. I am sedentary, overweight, less strong than most, shorter than most ... The cause of this is purely because of my genetic mix, of the gene mix that I was given where, to the best of my knowledge, all of those genes have been "approved" by natural selection. Now, what if I have a mutation that makes my fingernails just a fraction stronger than the average. Is that mutation likely to make the difference for my survival? Probably not. The fact that my genetic mix is in many ways "below average" bFast
There is a well known connection between mathematical and muscial ability - at least well known in the sense that it seems to be discussed quite frequently by math people. However, there also seems to be an abnormnally large number of musicians among the evolutionary biologists that I know. I will propose the following as a null hypothesis: the population of scientists (defined to include mathematicians, etc) in general is enriched with musicians relative to the general population simply because you don't get to be a scientist or a (good) musician unless you are self-disciplined and have a strong work ethic. Mathy people tend more than most to identify themselves by their math skills and so naturally perceive that as the cause of their musical ability when really it is just that they work hard at it. vrakj
Here is Andrew Newberg, MD author of Why God Won't Go Away
Over the centuries, theories have abounded as to why human beings have a seemingly irrational attraction to God and religious experiences. In Why God Won't Go Away authors Andrew Newberg, M.D., Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., and Vince Rause offer a startlingly simple, yet scientifically plausible opinion: humans seek God because our brains are biologically programmed to do so. Researchers Newberg and D'Aquili used high-tech imaging devices to peer into the brains of meditating Buddhists and Franciscan nuns. As the data and brain photographs flowed in, the researchers began to find solid evidence that the mystical experiences of the subjects "were not the result of some fabrication, or simple wishful thinking, but were associated instead with a series of observable neurological events," explains Newberg. "In other words, mystical experience is biologically, observably, and scientifically real.... Gradually, we shaped a hypothesis that suggests that spiritual experience, at its very root, is intimately interwoven with human biology." Lay readers should be warned that although the topic is fascinating, the writing is geared toward scientific documentation that defends the authors' hypothesis.
Again, I don't mean to alarm my UD brethren. I don't mean to suggest that just because religion might be rooted in our biology, that we therefore dismiss the phenomena of religion. Quite the contrary! We hunger for food and thirst for water. That desire is innate, it doesn't not mean food and water are therefore inherently an illusion. Now, on a more philosophical level, why would man's brain, the most complex device in all the universe, be so highly oriented toward religious expeirence? It does not seem to make sense in terms of natural selection. Oxford Mathematical Physicist Rogre Penrose seems to think the mind is a gateway to that pool of non-material, ideal platonic forms. I think the capacity for religious experience is there by design, not by natural selection. Given the high correlation of interest in ID and interest in religious matters, there is already some indirect work on the topic relating to ID and the brain. I would be curious to see more research on the issue. Salvador scordova
I tend to disagree with anti-evolution mathematicians not because of their math, but because they put the cart before the horse by assuming there was a goal that randomness had to meet. (the goal being whatever complex biological form they are looking at) Hindsight is 20/20 but it can also play havoc with the order of a cart and horse ;) Fross
Allen: Sal wasn't making a generalization. He was asking a question. He was WONdering if there was a relationship, not positively asserting that there is one. tinabrewer
Allen,
I sincerely hope your other generalizations are not as midinformed as this one, Sal.
Ah, but to be exact, I merely posed a hypothesis. It is still one I'm curious about. I said specifically:
I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID.
And if I may add, though I know of your position regarding ID, you've seemed the most willing to grant it a fair hearing. You really didn't strike me like the others. Considerably different than any EBer I've dialogued with online. That said, given the topic of innate tendencies toward design, and given that we are making physiological correlations between things like musical experience, I think the correlation between inclination toward ID and brain physiology would be interesting. or the correlation of ID and music, or anti-ID and music. And it would be especially intersting to see if there are measurable physiological differences. I'm sure the study would be quite heretical and controversial. I have to admit, I was rather astonished that music could find a measurable anatomical or physiological correlation. I am aware of brain studies which may possibly distinguish people who are religous versus those who aren't. That said, I don't want to imply that brain physiology validates or invalidates one position in the ID/evo debates any more than someone with a more natural aptitude for math would invalidate math merely because he is inclined toward it. If there is no correlation, fine, then my perceptions are an artifact of selective data sampling. I think it is a data point of interest which ever way the issue is decided. Thank you however for enlightening me and setting me straight at regarding your musical skills. It's always good to hear from you. regards, Salvador scordova
S Cordova wrote: "I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music." At Cornell alone I know of at least a half dozen. Perhaps the most prestigious and well-known is Dr. Thomas Eisner (of bombadier beetle fame, founder of the subdiscipline now known as chemical ecology) who is also an accomplished virtuoso pianist. In the 1970s, Eisner organized an association at Cornell called BRAHMS: Bi-weekly Rehearsing Association of Honorary Musical Scientists. Eisner was the conductor and upwards of a dozen members of the faculty (including several well-known evolutionary biologists) were members of what amounted to a surprisingly competent chamber ensemble. I myself was a first-chair euphonium player in my high-school wind ensemble, which tended to feature the works of Gustave Holst (those who know his folk song suites #1 and 2 will also know that they prominently feature the euphonium, along with other less-well-known wind instruments). I particularly remember playing the "Bydło" variation from the Revel orchestration of Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" while still in high school (for a concert at the Anderson Center at Binghmanton University). When I applied to college, I applied to the Eastman School of Music as well as Cornell, and was accepted, but finally decided to pursue a career in biology rather than become a concert musician. The reason? There are less than two dozen positions for a virtuoso euphonium player in the entire United States, and at the time nearly all of them were young men. Not much of a career path there, eh? In addition to the euphonium, I also play the cornet, trumpet, piano, concert organ, great highland bagpipes, Appalachian banjo, and Appalachian dulcimer (of which I have personally constructed two), plus the hammered dulcimer and Scottish side drum, and have sung a passable bass/baritone in such pieces as La Nozze di Figaro and Cosi fan Tutti. I also taught myself to read orchestral scores while in high school, and learned conducting from L. Kenton Briggs (a graduate of Eastman and my euphonium teacher). I sincerely hope your other generalizations are not as midinformed as this one, Sal. Allen_MacNeill
Your idea about musicians tending to be those who lean to accept ID is certainly interesting, but I think it could be falsifiable. Take a look at this: http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/roots/musicians/ - there's quite a parade of composers and musicians who were either atheists and agnostics. I think it's fair to say that all of those had enlarged cerebellum and other brain areas (particularly as most composers are usually highly composed musicians too). As to whether they accepted ID, we can only guess - but as there appears to be a strong correlation between religious faith and ID, it's probably reasonable to say they would not have been ID supporters. John Singleton
Re: bFast, Right, and we won't be able to address those questions until a fitness landscape is mapped out, then we could objectively evaluate risks vs gains for various features. But as Prof. Koons points out in Uncommon Dissent, such a mapping has never occurred, so all we're left with is just-so guesses masking as answers. I agree, the question of beauty is tricky. Why do peacocks have large feathers? Because females like them. So what came first: the females' adoration of the feathers, or the feathers themselves? It would seem odd for the trait of female feather adoration to have become fixed in the population before the feathers existed, yet it equally seems odd for the feather trait to become fixed in the population before the females' adoration of them existed. Tricky questions indeed. But don't worry, there is always a just-so story to answer these kinds of real difficulties. Atom
scordova: Hi! Thanks for the interesting quotes. It interests me that Professor Goodwin says that animals have "culture" and "language". Definition of terms is so important. I would be shocked to hear that people used to believe that animals lacked emotion. For example, fairy tales and folklore always involve animals who play parts which seem to correspond to certain traits or qualities which we associate with that animal: lions with regal bearing, foxes with cunning, wolves as ferocious, etc. I would actually attempt to make the case that in the pre-scientific era people had a much more intimate association with the animal soul, and that the idea of them as souless brutes is more of a modern by-product of scientific thinking, the same thinking which comes up with ideas like "life occurred and developed through chance and necessity alone." My idea that humans have a different essence than animals doesn't in any way imply that animals have no inner/emotional life. Just that theirs is an ANIMAL inner life, limited by their form and consciousness to animal values like propagation, ingestion, sensual experiencing, self-defense, etc. Certainly humans have all of these qualities as well. I think they also have more: they have self-consciousness which urges them to seek knowledge of what lies beyond this life and its limits, and human culture, as distinct from animal culture, bears witness to the general idea that this earth is not "home" to us, in the ultimate sense. I believe this is why humans have an almost ineradicable urge to take what is offered from nature and add to it an aesthetic quality. If we use wood to make bowls for eating, we use tools to form the wood into an aesthetically pleasing shape, adding decorations, etc. It almost never happens that we simply stop at the level of meeting a material need. We meet it and add to that beauty and refinement of some sort. THis is evidence to me that we have a deep inner awareness of our more perfect home, and a desire to recreate those conditions here. In the effort expended at recreating those conditions, we develop our humanness. tinabrewer
Atom, from what I have seen on the ID forums, we software developers are rather prone to be IDers. I don't know about the rest, but when I see DNA I see "program". Where there's fire there's smoke, and where there's programs there's programmers. The question of this thread, put very generally, is "can NDE realistically explain beauty?" Whether that beauty is in a bird's song that seems to only have a feature of being "attractive", or the feathers of a peacock whose only apparent purpose is to be "beautiful" the question of beauty as a selectable is quite a question. I know that the answer is sexual selection. I know that back when I was single, I could validate that the "beauty" of a woman made a lot of difference as to my level of interest -- whether I liked it or not. I still find it difficult to think that the peacock's tail offers more help in getting a mate than it does harm in making the bird more vulnerable to predation. bFast
I am 1) A software engineer by trade, comp sci graduate and 2) A musician by the name of Atom tha Immortal (http://www.myspace.com/atomthaimmortal). So it seems I was destined to be an ID advocate. Atom
Good to hear from you Tina. Regarding animials being human-like, here is an account by biologist Brian Goodwin:
The spectacle of animals at play is a puzzling one from the point of view of natural selection. Imagine two young cheetahs frolicking about in the grass of the savannah, not far from a herd of Thomson’s gazelles. They’re running, tumbling, feinting, frowling–expressing a joy of movement that is totally infectious. But they are taking enormous risks. Lions are constantly on the lookout for young cheetahs, which they ruthlessly destroy. And these two have just scattered the gazelles, one of whom their mother was carefully stalking, anticipating a meal that she badly needed because of the demands of feeding her two rapidly growing dependents. What is the point of this play that apparently reduces the cheetah’s chances of survival? They would do much better to carefully copy their mother in stalking, chasing, and catching prey, directing their energies and activities to something useful that increases their chances of survival, which for cheetahs is none too good to being with. But we see this type of behavior throughout the higher animal kingdom. A troop of monkeys is a familiar example. The amount of energy used by the young in chasing, climbing, leaping, frolicking, and general high jinks is so infectious that you want to join them…. It is in play that we see the richest, most varied, and unpredictable set of motions of wich an animal is capable. Compared with most goal-directed behavior, which tends to have strong elements of repetition that give it a somewhat stereotyped, even mechanical, quality, play is extraordinarly fluid. Brian Goodwin, Professor of Biology, UK
Here is a wonderful essay on the topic: Legitimizing a Thoughtful Form of Anthropomorphism
Properties once thought uniquely human, such as culture, language, emotion, personality, are one by one being identified in species as varied as fish, sheep, rats, crows and even invertebrates. Not only can apes and birds design and use tools, but elephants can get post-traumatic stress, rodents can laugh, fish can suffer distress and, with a glance at its face, a sheep can assign another sheep to its correct position in the family tree and assess its emotional state. Brain imaging has also played an important role in reshaping our views of the links between humans and animals, especially in relation to cognition, emotion and all ‘private’ mental states. This methodology has provided physical insight into mental states in humans, allowing direct comparison with mental states in animals. What was subjective has become objective, tractable and species-general. This implies that models of scientific inference are overdue for some serious rethinking to catch up and match scientific theory and data. Science is not only composed of an ever-increasing number of facts; it also evolves through alterations in what are considered to be allowable methods and subjects of investigation, as the film Kinsey reminds us. Pioneering scientist Alfred Kinsey argued in the 1940s and 1950s that although sexual behaviour can be dis-sected and catalogued, love cannot. Fifty years later, contrary to his predictions, science is doing just that: studying love, from the hormonal effects of ‘romantic disappointments’ in cichlid fish, and long-term pair bonding in voles, to the imaging of brain correlates of the ‘broken heart’ in humans. The mutual expansion of method and subject has thoroughly confused traditionally held views of species differences and the nature of emotions. Ironically, in our efforts to determine why we are so unique, we have discovered that we are not so different after all.
Let me give my personal (not scientific thoughts) about what this signifies. The designer is putting things within biological reality that resist materialistic explanations. They make little sense in a Darwinian world. They accord far better with Paley's viewpoint. Common descent is a poor explanation for the origination and persistence of these qualities. The animals reflect many qualities of human beings, not because we are animals, but because our qualities proceed from the Mind of the same designer. Furthermore, it seems the designer wished to impart variations of a theme in the biotic world, themes that are artistic, and make no sense materially: joy, grief, laughter, songs, compassion, and love, etc. Let me offer a personal and view: it is no accident an innocent lamb feels pain when it is slaughtered, and it is no accident we will feel remorse at its sacrifice. The world of biology points to a reality that is different than what Darwinism has any hope of explaining. scordova
The problem in his reasoning, to me, is his (and all Darwinians') assumption that what makes sense in the animal kingdom necessarily makes sense in the human. The distinction in kind between human and animal is essential, not in order to elevate humans, but in order to understand properly the responsibilities we bear as a species. Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply "receivers" for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. This also strongly implies that some non-material, essential substance which contains information exists, and that this information can be received and formed into works in matter. Thats really what art is, no? tinabrewer
Miller then gives the store away:
More centrally, the design features of human music need to be related much more securely and less speculatively to specific functions under ancestral conditions.
There is no need to do this if the selection had nothing to do with ability to be musical! scordova
Let me give some observations by a Darwinist on music: Evolution of human music through sexual selection by Geoffrey Miller Miller first begins by articulating the Design position on music:
The historical analogy between the study of bird song and the study of human music may prove instructive. Before Darwin, the natural theologians such as William Paley considered bird song to have no possible function for the animals themselves, but rather to signal the creator’s benevolence to human worshippers through miracles of beauty. Bird song was put in the category of the natural sublime, along with flowers, sunsets, and alpine peaks, as phenomena with an aesthetic impact too deep to carry anything less than a transcendental message....Against the hypothesis that bird song somehow aids survival, Darwin cited observations that male birds sometimes drop dead from exhaustion while singing during the breeding season. ...... Many commentators have taken Paley’s creationist, transcendental position, claiming that music’s aesthetic and emotional power exceed what would be required for any conceivable biological function. Claude Levi-Strauss (1970, p. 18), for example, took a position typical of cultural anthropology in writing “Since music is the only language with the contradictory attributes of being at once intelligible and untranslatable, the musical creator is a being comparable to the gods, and music itself the supreme mystery of the science of man.”
Then Miller some thoughts on the Darwinian view:
No one has ever proposed a reasonable survival benefit to individuals taking the time and energy to produce music, which has no utility in finding food, avoiding predators, or overcoming parasites. But if one falls back on claiming survival benefits to the group, through some musical mechanism of group-bonding, then one ends up in the embarrassing position of invoking group selection, which has never been needed to explain any other trait in any mammalian species (see Williams, 1966). If evolution did operate according to survival of the fittest, human music would be inexplicable. .... Darwin concludes with a strong critique of the natural theology position, arguing that if male birds sing to females, it must be because female birds are impressed by singing: “unless females were able to appreciate such sounds and were excited or charmed by them, the persevering efforts of the males, and the complex structures often possessed by them alone, would be useless; and this is impossible to believe” (Darwin, 1871, p. 878). Immediately after rejecting the possibility that animal sounds are useless, Darwin ponders the apparent frivolity of human music: “As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man in reference to his daily habits of life, they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed” (Darwin, 1871, p. 878).
Miller goes on try to vindicate the Darwinian view. I think he made a gallant effort, but somehow the argument rang hollow. To me, Paley got it right. scordova
"I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music." Sal you need to get out more. Of course there are enough qualifiers in that statement to argue for it in the face of any amount of data. Erasmus

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