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Wistar Convention, Salem Hypothesis and Music

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einstein violin

The most well-known recorded clash between non-biologists and biologists over evolutionary theory was at Wistar 1966 :

a handful of mathematicians and biologists were chattering over a picnic lunch organized by the physicist, Victor Weisskopf, who is a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
and one of the original Los Alamos atomic bomb group, at his house in Geneva. `A rather weird discussion’ took place. The subject was evolution by natural selection. The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance. So wide was the rift that they decided to organize a conference, which was called Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution. The conference was chaired by Sir Peter Medawar, whose work on graft rejection won him a Noble prize and who, at the time, was director of the Medical Research Council’s laboratories in North London. Not, you will understand, the kind of man to speak wildly or without careful thought. In opening the meeting, he said: `The immediate cause of this conference is a pretty widespread sense of dissatisfaction about what has come to be thought of as the accepted evolutionary theory in the English-speaking world, the so-called neo-Darwinian theory. This dissatisfaction has been expressed from several quarters.”

Some of the most tenacious opponents of Darwinian evolution have been those outside of the discipline of biology, most notably engineers, mathematicians, physicists, and chemists.

I point to the Salem Hypothesis:

An education in the Engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to Creation/Intelligent Design viewpoints.

But what about musicians?

(The topic of music, math, computer science came up in Artificial Intelligence and the Game of Checkers. I sensed a great deal of interest in the topic so I’m opening this thread to air the discussion out. )

I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID. Seriously! It’s been my experience that at least in regards to people I meet on the internet there is a partial correlation. I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music.

There is a little nuance here however in that many with interest in the disciplines of engineering, math, and physics have interest in music. Here at UD, William Dembski, Gil Dodgen, and myself can play Chopin Etudes on the piano. Several of my math and computer science professors were accomplished musicians. My piano teacher was also a professor of mathematics. Albert Einstein, Edward Teller, and Richard Feynman were also accomplished musicians.

To support the correlation of computers, math, and music , consider this article: Society for Neuroscience

musical brain

Brain imaging research shows that several brain areas are larger in adult musicians than in nonmusicians. For example, the primary motor cortex and the cerebellum, which are involved in movement and coordination, are bigger in adult musicians than in people who don’t play musical instruments. The area that connects the two sides of the brain, the corpus callosum, is also larger in adult musicians.

music training can influence brain organization and ability. In fact, researchers actively are studying whether the brain changes observed in musicians enhance mental functions, including many not associated with music. While research is still in its early stages, some studies already suggest that this might be the case. For example, musically-trained adults perform better on word memory tests than other adults.

In addition to adults, children who take music lessons may experience advantages with respect to some cognitive skills. Preschoolers who had piano lessons for about six months perform better than other preschoolers on puzzle-solving tests. Researchers are trying to improve this music effect by adding other training components. One recent study found that second-graders who took piano lessons and played special computer math games score higher on math tests than children who played the math games but had English language instruction instead of piano lessons. Scientists now are testing whether the addition of another set of lessons, which incorporates the computer game into a school’s standard math program, will boost the young pianists’ math scores even more. Preliminary findings indicate that second-graders who received this version perform as well as fourth-graders in fractions, ratios, symmetry, graphs, and other pre-algebra problems.

Finally platonic ideals are also the antithesis of Darwinian evolution, but very friendly to mathematics, music, information science and ID.

How “real” are the objects of a mathematician’s world? From one point of view it seems there can be nothing real about them at all.Mathematical objects are just concepts;they are the mental idealizations that mathematicians make,often stimulated by the appearance and seeming order of aspects of the world about us,but mental idealizations nevertheless. Can they be other than mere arbitrary constructions of the human mind? At the same time there often does appear to be some profound reality about these mathematical concepts,going quite beyond the mental deliberations of any particular mathematician.It is as though human thought is,instead,being guided towards some external truth – a truth which has a reality of its own,and is revealed only partially to any one of us.
….
Such categorizations are not entirely dissimilar from those that one might use in the arts or in engineering. Great works of art are indeed “closer to God” than are lesser ones.It is a feeling not uncommon among artists,that in their greatest works they are revealing eternal truths which have some kind of prior ethereal existence,while their lesser works might be more arbitrary,of the nature of mere mortal constructions.

Likewise,an engineering innovation with a beautiful economy,where a great deal is achieved in the scope of the application of some simple,unexpected idea, might appropriately be described as a discovery rather than an invention.

Having made these points,however,I cannot help feeling that,with mathematics,the case for believing in some kind of ethereal,eternal existence,at least for the more profound mathematical concepts,is a good deal stronger than in those other cases.There is a compelling uniqueness and universality in such mathematical ideas which seems to be of quite a different order from that which one could expect in the arts or or engineering.The view that mathematical concepts could exist in such a timeless,ethereal sense was put forward in ancient times (c.360 BC) by the great Greek philosopher Plato.Consequently,this view is frequently referred to as mathematical Platonism [Ref: Davis & Hersh “The Mathematical Experience” {Platonism}].It will have considerable importance for us later.

Roger Penrose
Mathematical Physicst, Emperor’s New Mind

Thus, since music is something of a platonic form, I would presume that there will be a slight correlation between the love of music and the love of intelligent design.

Comments
S Cordova wrote: "I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music." At Cornell alone I know of at least a half dozen. Perhaps the most prestigious and well-known is Dr. Thomas Eisner (of bombadier beetle fame, founder of the subdiscipline now known as chemical ecology) who is also an accomplished virtuoso pianist. In the 1970s, Eisner organized an association at Cornell called BRAHMS: Bi-weekly Rehearsing Association of Honorary Musical Scientists. Eisner was the conductor and upwards of a dozen members of the faculty (including several well-known evolutionary biologists) were members of what amounted to a surprisingly competent chamber ensemble. I myself was a first-chair euphonium player in my high-school wind ensemble, which tended to feature the works of Gustave Holst (those who know his folk song suites #1 and 2 will also know that they prominently feature the euphonium, along with other less-well-known wind instruments). I particularly remember playing the "Bydło" variation from the Revel orchestration of Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" while still in high school (for a concert at the Anderson Center at Binghmanton University). When I applied to college, I applied to the Eastman School of Music as well as Cornell, and was accepted, but finally decided to pursue a career in biology rather than become a concert musician. The reason? There are less than two dozen positions for a virtuoso euphonium player in the entire United States, and at the time nearly all of them were young men. Not much of a career path there, eh? In addition to the euphonium, I also play the cornet, trumpet, piano, concert organ, great highland bagpipes, Appalachian banjo, and Appalachian dulcimer (of which I have personally constructed two), plus the hammered dulcimer and Scottish side drum, and have sung a passable bass/baritone in such pieces as La Nozze di Figaro and Cosi fan Tutti. I also taught myself to read orchestral scores while in high school, and learned conducting from L. Kenton Briggs (a graduate of Eastman and my euphonium teacher). I sincerely hope your other generalizations are not as midinformed as this one, Sal.Allen_MacNeill
August 24, 2006
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Your idea about musicians tending to be those who lean to accept ID is certainly interesting, but I think it could be falsifiable. Take a look at this: http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/roots/musicians/ - there's quite a parade of composers and musicians who were either atheists and agnostics. I think it's fair to say that all of those had enlarged cerebellum and other brain areas (particularly as most composers are usually highly composed musicians too). As to whether they accepted ID, we can only guess - but as there appears to be a strong correlation between religious faith and ID, it's probably reasonable to say they would not have been ID supporters.John Singleton
August 24, 2006
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Re: bFast, Right, and we won't be able to address those questions until a fitness landscape is mapped out, then we could objectively evaluate risks vs gains for various features. But as Prof. Koons points out in Uncommon Dissent, such a mapping has never occurred, so all we're left with is just-so guesses masking as answers. I agree, the question of beauty is tricky. Why do peacocks have large feathers? Because females like them. So what came first: the females' adoration of the feathers, or the feathers themselves? It would seem odd for the trait of female feather adoration to have become fixed in the population before the feathers existed, yet it equally seems odd for the feather trait to become fixed in the population before the females' adoration of them existed. Tricky questions indeed. But don't worry, there is always a just-so story to answer these kinds of real difficulties.Atom
August 24, 2006
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scordova: Hi! Thanks for the interesting quotes. It interests me that Professor Goodwin says that animals have "culture" and "language". Definition of terms is so important. I would be shocked to hear that people used to believe that animals lacked emotion. For example, fairy tales and folklore always involve animals who play parts which seem to correspond to certain traits or qualities which we associate with that animal: lions with regal bearing, foxes with cunning, wolves as ferocious, etc. I would actually attempt to make the case that in the pre-scientific era people had a much more intimate association with the animal soul, and that the idea of them as souless brutes is more of a modern by-product of scientific thinking, the same thinking which comes up with ideas like "life occurred and developed through chance and necessity alone." My idea that humans have a different essence than animals doesn't in any way imply that animals have no inner/emotional life. Just that theirs is an ANIMAL inner life, limited by their form and consciousness to animal values like propagation, ingestion, sensual experiencing, self-defense, etc. Certainly humans have all of these qualities as well. I think they also have more: they have self-consciousness which urges them to seek knowledge of what lies beyond this life and its limits, and human culture, as distinct from animal culture, bears witness to the general idea that this earth is not "home" to us, in the ultimate sense. I believe this is why humans have an almost ineradicable urge to take what is offered from nature and add to it an aesthetic quality. If we use wood to make bowls for eating, we use tools to form the wood into an aesthetically pleasing shape, adding decorations, etc. It almost never happens that we simply stop at the level of meeting a material need. We meet it and add to that beauty and refinement of some sort. THis is evidence to me that we have a deep inner awareness of our more perfect home, and a desire to recreate those conditions here. In the effort expended at recreating those conditions, we develop our humanness.tinabrewer
August 24, 2006
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Atom, from what I have seen on the ID forums, we software developers are rather prone to be IDers. I don't know about the rest, but when I see DNA I see "program". Where there's fire there's smoke, and where there's programs there's programmers. The question of this thread, put very generally, is "can NDE realistically explain beauty?" Whether that beauty is in a bird's song that seems to only have a feature of being "attractive", or the feathers of a peacock whose only apparent purpose is to be "beautiful" the question of beauty as a selectable is quite a question. I know that the answer is sexual selection. I know that back when I was single, I could validate that the "beauty" of a woman made a lot of difference as to my level of interest -- whether I liked it or not. I still find it difficult to think that the peacock's tail offers more help in getting a mate than it does harm in making the bird more vulnerable to predation.bFast
August 24, 2006
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I am 1) A software engineer by trade, comp sci graduate and 2) A musician by the name of Atom tha Immortal (http://www.myspace.com/atomthaimmortal). So it seems I was destined to be an ID advocate.Atom
August 24, 2006
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Good to hear from you Tina. Regarding animials being human-like, here is an account by biologist Brian Goodwin:
The spectacle of animals at play is a puzzling one from the point of view of natural selection. Imagine two young cheetahs frolicking about in the grass of the savannah, not far from a herd of Thomson’s gazelles. They’re running, tumbling, feinting, frowling–expressing a joy of movement that is totally infectious. But they are taking enormous risks. Lions are constantly on the lookout for young cheetahs, which they ruthlessly destroy. And these two have just scattered the gazelles, one of whom their mother was carefully stalking, anticipating a meal that she badly needed because of the demands of feeding her two rapidly growing dependents. What is the point of this play that apparently reduces the cheetah’s chances of survival? They would do much better to carefully copy their mother in stalking, chasing, and catching prey, directing their energies and activities to something useful that increases their chances of survival, which for cheetahs is none too good to being with. But we see this type of behavior throughout the higher animal kingdom. A troop of monkeys is a familiar example. The amount of energy used by the young in chasing, climbing, leaping, frolicking, and general high jinks is so infectious that you want to join them…. It is in play that we see the richest, most varied, and unpredictable set of motions of wich an animal is capable. Compared with most goal-directed behavior, which tends to have strong elements of repetition that give it a somewhat stereotyped, even mechanical, quality, play is extraordinarly fluid. Brian Goodwin, Professor of Biology, UK
Here is a wonderful essay on the topic: Legitimizing a Thoughtful Form of Anthropomorphism
Properties once thought uniquely human, such as culture, language, emotion, personality, are one by one being identified in species as varied as fish, sheep, rats, crows and even invertebrates. Not only can apes and birds design and use tools, but elephants can get post-traumatic stress, rodents can laugh, fish can suffer distress and, with a glance at its face, a sheep can assign another sheep to its correct position in the family tree and assess its emotional state. Brain imaging has also played an important role in reshaping our views of the links between humans and animals, especially in relation to cognition, emotion and all ‘private’ mental states. This methodology has provided physical insight into mental states in humans, allowing direct comparison with mental states in animals. What was subjective has become objective, tractable and species-general. This implies that models of scientific inference are overdue for some serious rethinking to catch up and match scientific theory and data. Science is not only composed of an ever-increasing number of facts; it also evolves through alterations in what are considered to be allowable methods and subjects of investigation, as the film Kinsey reminds us. Pioneering scientist Alfred Kinsey argued in the 1940s and 1950s that although sexual behaviour can be dis-sected and catalogued, love cannot. Fifty years later, contrary to his predictions, science is doing just that: studying love, from the hormonal effects of ‘romantic disappointments’ in cichlid fish, and long-term pair bonding in voles, to the imaging of brain correlates of the ‘broken heart’ in humans. The mutual expansion of method and subject has thoroughly confused traditionally held views of species differences and the nature of emotions. Ironically, in our efforts to determine why we are so unique, we have discovered that we are not so different after all.
Let me give my personal (not scientific thoughts) about what this signifies. The designer is putting things within biological reality that resist materialistic explanations. They make little sense in a Darwinian world. They accord far better with Paley's viewpoint. Common descent is a poor explanation for the origination and persistence of these qualities. The animals reflect many qualities of human beings, not because we are animals, but because our qualities proceed from the Mind of the same designer. Furthermore, it seems the designer wished to impart variations of a theme in the biotic world, themes that are artistic, and make no sense materially: joy, grief, laughter, songs, compassion, and love, etc. Let me offer a personal and view: it is no accident an innocent lamb feels pain when it is slaughtered, and it is no accident we will feel remorse at its sacrifice. The world of biology points to a reality that is different than what Darwinism has any hope of explaining.scordova
August 24, 2006
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The problem in his reasoning, to me, is his (and all Darwinians') assumption that what makes sense in the animal kingdom necessarily makes sense in the human. The distinction in kind between human and animal is essential, not in order to elevate humans, but in order to understand properly the responsibilities we bear as a species. Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply "receivers" for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. This also strongly implies that some non-material, essential substance which contains information exists, and that this information can be received and formed into works in matter. Thats really what art is, no?tinabrewer
August 24, 2006
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Miller then gives the store away:
More centrally, the design features of human music need to be related much more securely and less speculatively to specific functions under ancestral conditions.
There is no need to do this if the selection had nothing to do with ability to be musical!scordova
August 24, 2006
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Let me give some observations by a Darwinist on music: Evolution of human music through sexual selection by Geoffrey Miller Miller first begins by articulating the Design position on music:
The historical analogy between the study of bird song and the study of human music may prove instructive. Before Darwin, the natural theologians such as William Paley considered bird song to have no possible function for the animals themselves, but rather to signal the creator’s benevolence to human worshippers through miracles of beauty. Bird song was put in the category of the natural sublime, along with flowers, sunsets, and alpine peaks, as phenomena with an aesthetic impact too deep to carry anything less than a transcendental message....Against the hypothesis that bird song somehow aids survival, Darwin cited observations that male birds sometimes drop dead from exhaustion while singing during the breeding season. ...... Many commentators have taken Paley’s creationist, transcendental position, claiming that music’s aesthetic and emotional power exceed what would be required for any conceivable biological function. Claude Levi-Strauss (1970, p. 18), for example, took a position typical of cultural anthropology in writing “Since music is the only language with the contradictory attributes of being at once intelligible and untranslatable, the musical creator is a being comparable to the gods, and music itself the supreme mystery of the science of man.”
Then Miller some thoughts on the Darwinian view:
No one has ever proposed a reasonable survival benefit to individuals taking the time and energy to produce music, which has no utility in finding food, avoiding predators, or overcoming parasites. But if one falls back on claiming survival benefits to the group, through some musical mechanism of group-bonding, then one ends up in the embarrassing position of invoking group selection, which has never been needed to explain any other trait in any mammalian species (see Williams, 1966). If evolution did operate according to survival of the fittest, human music would be inexplicable. .... Darwin concludes with a strong critique of the natural theology position, arguing that if male birds sing to females, it must be because female birds are impressed by singing: “unless females were able to appreciate such sounds and were excited or charmed by them, the persevering efforts of the males, and the complex structures often possessed by them alone, would be useless; and this is impossible to believe” (Darwin, 1871, p. 878). Immediately after rejecting the possibility that animal sounds are useless, Darwin ponders the apparent frivolity of human music: “As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man in reference to his daily habits of life, they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed” (Darwin, 1871, p. 878).
Miller goes on try to vindicate the Darwinian view. I think he made a gallant effort, but somehow the argument rang hollow. To me, Paley got it right.scordova
August 24, 2006
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"I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music." Sal you need to get out more. Of course there are enough qualifiers in that statement to argue for it in the face of any amount of data.Erasmus
August 24, 2006
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