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WJM Throws Down the Gauntlet

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All that follows is WJM’s:

Modern physics has long ago disproved the idea that “matter” exists at all. Timothy’s position might as well be that because we all perceive the sun moving through the sky from east to west, it is a fact that it is the sun that is doing the moving.

Just because we perceive a world of what we call “matter” doesn’t change the fact that we know no such world actually exists regardless of what our perception tells us. What we call “matter” is a perceptual interpretation of something that is not, in any meaningful sense, “matter”. We know now (current science) that matter is, at its root, entirely “immaterial”, despite what our macro sensory perceptions have told us for millennia (like the sun moving through the sky).

Materialists are clinging to a pre-Victorian perspective of what it is we are perceiving, long since discarded after over a hundred years of experimental results.

Now we get to the so-called “material-immaterial interaction problem”. First, there is no “material world,” so it’s problematic to begin with a term that draws from an archaic, unscientific understanding of what it is we are perceiving.

Second, has the “material-material” interaction problem even been addressed, much less “solved”? We have absolutely no idea **how** “matter” interacts with other “matter”. We can describe the behavior of that interaction, then use a term to refer to that model as if that term was an actual “thing”, but describing the behavior is not explaining the **how** of the interaction.

When so-called dualism objectors can first explain matter/matter interaction, and when they can tell us what they mean by “material” and “immaterial”, they will then have a meaningful foundation to form a cogent objection to the idea of material/immaterial interaction.

Any materialist here up to that very basic task?

Comments
SA said:
Again your premise is that all thoughts and imaginations have equal value in reality.
I suggest you re-read my posts. All experiences are equally real. That doesn't mean they have equal value in all context and situations in one's experience.
I think every rational discourse has to be grounded in the idea that a proposition is true because it conforms to an external reality.
Perhaps in your experience, you can actually experience external reality. In my experience, I cannot. As far as I know, all that exists = what I experience. Even ideas about things existing "outside of my experience" are inside my experience. I think this is referred to as Plato's Cave.William J Murray
July 29, 2018
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KF, Was there a point to that? If so, It's lost on me. My point is that SA's logic appears to me to draw an equivalence between the concept of "real" and the concept of "true" (he imagines my being wrong, so since imagined views are real, therefore it is true that I am wrong). In my experience, "real" doesn't = "true", because in my experience, falsehoods and error exists just as much as truths. I mean, just because I imagine that when I see my son again he will be 20 feet tall doesn't mean that is what is going to occur. Do the images in my mind "not exist"? They are only "not real" if one assigns materialist-oriented attributes to the term "real" that science has shown are not warranted to any kind of experience. In my experience, being "just as real" doesn't also mean just as true, just as useful, or just as consensually applicable the being "equally real" means "just as brown" or "Just as tall." Different real things, in my experience, have entirely different values and characteristics.William J Murray
July 29, 2018
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I guess we could say that both equations are equally real, however under the usual stipulations, one or both could be true [corrected]. In fact, in this context, it would be reasonable to say that equation 1 is true, while equation 2 is false.daveS
July 29, 2018
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WJM, if the second is in the ternary, base-3 numeral system, it would be true also. KFkairosfocus
July 29, 2018
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SA, 1+2=3 1+2=10 In your experience, 1. Are those two written equations equally real? 2. Are those two written equations equally true?William J Murray
July 28, 2018
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WJM
I have to disagree because I’ve had many rational discussions with many people predicated on the assumption that all experiences are equally real.
I just imagined you being mistaken about all of this. Therefore, using a subjective experiential basis - you were, in reality, mistaken. Thus, what you just said is false. You cannot logically disagree with this and must accept that you were, indeed, mistaken and your point has been refuted. Here's the logic. 1. All conscious experiences and therefore thoughts are equally real. 2. I have a conscious experiential thought that you are mistaken. 3. Following from #1, my thought is equally real as any. 4. Therefore, you are, in reality, mistaken and proven false.
You seem to be under the impression that all rational discourse requires argumentation and refutation. That is not the case.
You are seeking to argue with me in this discussion. In my view, all rational discourse is an exercise in understanding the truth about things - and separating truth from falsehood, the reasonable from irrational, the real from the unreal. Argumentation, comparison, contrast, logic - these are all the foundations of rational discourse. You and I are doing it now. When you attempt to demonstrate a truth to anyone - that is argumentation. A response can be to question or deny your statements - thus requiring you to argue more.
We can discern the difference between logically valid and non-valid conclusions regardless of the axiomatic assumptions, whether or not the assumptions involve any consensual external experience. Such discernment can be discerned using imagined, hypothetical scenarios.
Again, I disagree. There are several axioms that make it impossible to discover a valid or non-valid conclusion. I am suggesting that the axiom: "All conscious experiences are equally real" is one such.
Math works just fine regardless of whether one uses consensually-experienced apples or personally imagined apples.
I can imagine apples that cannot be reduced to mathematical formulae. It seems that you are assuming that my imaginary apples must be the same as consensually-experienced apples.
Consensual experiences could certainly serve as one basis for rational discussion.
I believe that basis would be logically false since you would be assigning a greater truth-value to consensus-experience than to non-consensus or minority views. That contradicts your first premise that all experiences, consensual or not, are equally real.
One needn’t insist that a consensual experiences represent something “more real” than imagined experiences in order to rationally discuss them.
Could you give an example?
You seem to be assuming that “because all experiences are existentially real” means we should treat all experiences as if they apply in every other experiential context. You are also, I think, confusing “behaves like what we call a material object” with “real”.
No, I didn't say or assume that. I just drew a distinction with what is imagined from what we typically regard as real. I believe there is a difference between a real, material apple that can be experienced through human senses (and in a shared experience) and an imagined apple.
You also seem to be assuming that people who accept the reality of all experience cannot (or should not) discern non-consensual experience modes from consensual experience modes.
Well, I am arguing that the assignment of greater truth value to consensus modes over non-consensus is contradictory in that view. It indicates that we would need to weigh the popularity of an experience in order to discuss it.
Intuition and insight are non-consensual modes of experience that are often brought into consensual-mode processes and work with great success.
Yes, but why would this matter? All experiences have equal value so whether consensus or not, all have equal reality and value within a process.
Care to try and support that view?
Well, you're doing exactly what I said - you are seeking an externally accessible reference for my statement. I could, in your view, merely state that I have already supported and proven my point. All that is required is for me to imagine that what I said is supported by a wealth of documented information - and thus I have proven my point. But because you are demanding some other sort of "real" confirmation of my statement, in other words, you won't accept my imagined experience as enough evidence, I think this shows why a rational statement must be supported by an external reference.
Do you have any kind of reference that this is the classic understanding of rationality?
As above, you are looking for a "reference". I make a truth statement expressed from my conscious experience. But you do not accept it as "real". Instead, you seek an external reference to validate my thought. But to answer your question, when I speak of "the classic understanding" I refer to the philosophical realism of the West that was the foundation of rational thought roughly speaking from the teaching of Aristotle through Decartes. "Nihil est in intellectu quod non sit prius in sensu" - you can google or translate adding Aquinas or Aristotle to the search terms.
To say that rational discourse has anything at all to do with any objective, exterior world is itself a product of the mind and experience and has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed qualities innate to the theoretical exterior world. So, to say that rationality depends on a connection to an exterior, objective reality is entirely unwarranted.
Well, it is based on a trust that the human mind does perceive truth via information received from the world external to the human. Your view is that of radical skepticism or rationalism. I think I have shown that the idea that all thoughts or imaginations have equal reality actually destroys reason. But I can go further with this if you would like.
It’s one thing to say that many or most successful cooperative experiences depend upon a large, consensual sets of experience; it is entirely and patently absurd to discount non-consensual experiential modes as not having anything to contribute to successful, rational discourse and cooperation.
Again your premise is that all thoughts and imaginations have equal value in reality. All are equally real. Your concern with consensus or non-consensus is a means of categorizing experiences, and you're actually adding greater value to consensus experiences. But as stated, each of my imaginations and dreams and thoughts is equally as real as any consensus experiences, then there is no basis to belief that a consensus view has more value or more truth or more reality. As I said, the premise here destroys argumentation. Again, I can imagine you being very mistaken. In fact, I can imagine that you have just personally affirmed that I am correct in every point I raised. Thus, all of my views I raised here are correct and real. There is no way to refute that. In fact, a failure to accept the reality of my imagined thoughts would contradict your view that my thoughts are equally as real as any. I can go much further with this - much farther down the path of how irrational it can get. The assumption, for example, that truth has a higher value than falsehood would have no foundation in this view. I did present some matters of the moral law -- I think this is also very important to consider. You are presenting a view of radical skepticism about reality -- and basically radical subjectivism, where the personal experience and thoughts of each individual are necessarily real and therefore true merely because they thought or experienced them. This really cannot work.Silver Asiatic
July 28, 2018
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SA said:
If all experiences are equally “real” simply because they are experienced, then rational discourse (argumentation, disagreements, etc) is not possible.
I have to disagree because I've had many rational discussions with many people predicated on the assumption that all experiences are equally real.
No statement about “reality” could be refuted. In order to refute anything, one would need to have access to the inner state of the person making the statement.
You seem to be under the impression that all rational discourse requires argumentation and refutation. That is not the case.
Rationality is based on the foundation that Truth is different from Falsehood and that we can know that objectively.
I don't see how this statement has anything to do with the conversation we are having. We can discern the difference between logically valid and non-valid conclusions regardless of the axiomatic assumptions, whether or not the assumptions involve any consensual external experience. Such discernment can be discerned using imagined, hypothetical scenarios.  Rational discourse about such things is certainly possible.
What principles would apply that would serve as a foundation? Normally, we say that a contradiction of statements is irrational, or that there is a difference between an imagination and a “real entity”. But this would no longer apply.
The same principles that guide any rational discourse - the principles of logic. Math works just fine regardless of whether one uses consensually-experienced apples or personally imagined apples. Not really sure why you are demanding that such principles require an agreement about an external reality when some of the greatest breakthroughs were made as thought experiments years before consensual experimentation could occur.
There would be no external references to ground any statements. Discussion would merely be expressions of inaccessible, internal states or experiences. These may be similar to what another person thinks, or radically different (or contradictory).
Consensual experiences could certainly serve as one basis for rational discussion. One needn't insist that a consensual experiences represent something "more real" than imagined experiences in order to rationally discuss them. You seem to be assuming that "because all experiences are existentially real" means we should treat all experiences as if they apply in every other experiential context.  You are also, I think, confusing "behaves like what we call a material object" with "real".  You also seem to be assuming that people who accept the reality of all experience cannot (or should not) discern non-consensual experience modes from consensual experience modes.  Intuition and insight are non-consensual modes of experience that are often brought into consensual-mode processes and work with great success.  Have you ever heard about how Tesla came up with a lot of his inventions and ideas?
I think every rational discourse has to be grounded in the idea that a proposition is true because it conforms to an external reality. This is the classic understanding of rationality,
Care to try and support that view? Do you have any kind of reference that this is the classic understanding of rationality?
...where we obtain true knowledge of things and the world through information that we obtain through our senses.
The problem with this view of "rationality" is that literally none of the meaningful aspects of it occur anywhere except in our conscious mental experience. "The external world" is an idea of our existential framework in the mind.  All supposed "sensory information" is utterly useless until it is processed, interpreted and organized into an experience, which is then evaluated according to abstract rules and models in the mind.  To say that rational discourse has anything at all to do with any objective, exterior world is itself a product of the mind and experience and has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed qualities innate to the theoretical exterior world. So, to say that rationality depends on a connection to an exterior, objective reality is entirely unwarranted. It's one thing to say that many or most successful cooperative experiences depend upon a large, consensual sets of experience; it is entirely and patently absurd to discount non-consensual experiential modes as not having anything to contribute to successful, rational discourse and cooperation.William J Murray
July 27, 2018
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Good post at 43, SA. I really don't understand WJM's point.jdk
July 27, 2018
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WJM @ 39
From a materialist perspective, I can see your point, but the problem with that view is that “rationality” is not a material quality to begin with. It is a quality of consciousness. It doesn’t require commitment to materialist perspectives for validity (even when they wear the cloth of spirituality or religion).
Yes, there is no requirement for a materialist perspective (in the older meaning of that word "material reality is all that exists"), but I think rationality requires that there is an independent, objectively-accessible reality for human beings to reference. If all experiences are equally "real" simply because they are experienced, then rational discourse (argumentation, disagreements, etc) is not possible. No statement about "reality" could be refuted. In order to refute anything, one would need to have access to the inner state of the person making the statement. Rationality is based on the foundation that Truth is different from Falsehood and that we can know that objectively.
Even if you and I have very different experiences, and prioritize them differently, that doesn’t mean there aren’t principles that apply to consciousness and information, and how they are interpreted and experienced, that cannot serve as the foundation for rational discourse.
What principles would apply that would serve as a foundation? Normally, we say that a contradiction of statements is irrational, or that there is a difference between an imagination and a "real entity". But this would no longer apply. If I imagine myself being the President of the United States, then "in reality" that is what I am while imagining this. To then say "I experienced the role of President" would be a "true" statement. Nobody could refute it.
The nature of the discourse simply moves away from being a competition of “which experiences are real”, to something more along the lines of what those experiences mean to that individual, how they are prioritizing and using them and for whatever purpose, etc.
I fully agree that this is what would need to change. There would be no external references to ground any statements. Discussion would merely be expressions of inaccessible, internal states or experiences. These may be similar to what another person thinks, or radically different (or contradictory).
Not every rational discourse has to be a competition for, or a defense of, one’s personal concept of what is real and what is not. They can also begin with accepting someone’s perspective arguendo, then exploring that perspective rationally.
I think every rational discourse has to be grounded in the idea that a proposition is true because it conforms to an external reality. This is the classic understanding of rationality, where we obtain true knowledge of things and the world through information that we obtain through our senses. I hear someone say a word - it "really" happened. I imagined a word - and this has a different truth-value. Again, I don't think it's possible to understand what another person is saying if internal-thoughts and imaginations have the same reality as what we traditionally call "material reality". How would it work, for example, in a court trial, when witnesses give testimony to what actually occurred? Could an imaginary scenario be entered as testimonial evidence?Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2018
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Oops: 41 is formatted wrong. The last sentence is just my last comment, not a quote.jdk
July 27, 2018
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Hi JAD. Just for the record, nothing I have written in this thread is in support of Dennett's position. The remark you quoted of mine was in response to a point by SA, which was
However to then say ‘matter does not exist, therefore whatever you imagine is just as real, just as physical as the rock smashing the window …’ That is the foundation for insanity. It would put an end to science. If there is no matter, then a hallucination (a perception) is just as real, valid and relevant as any other perception./
I don't know whether you read the rest of the thread, especially 35 on my part, but I don't think Dennett is very relevant to it.
jdk
July 27, 2018
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jdk @ 31 wrote,
it is certainly not the case that materialism implies that “a hallucination (a perception) is just as real, valid and relevant as any other perception”. Our experience of matter at the human level is about reality, even if quantum phenomena underlie that experience.
Some well-educated atheists believe mind and consciousness are an illusion. That apparently is what Daniel Dennett thinks. In his book review of Dennett’s book, From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds, Thomas Nagel describes Dennett’s view as follows:
Dennett holds a distinctive and openly paradoxical position. Our manifest image of the world and ourselves includes as a prominent part not only the physical body and central nervous system but our own consciousness with its elaborate features—sensory, emotional, and cognitive—as well as the consciousness of other humans and many nonhuman species. In keeping with his general view of the manifest image, Dennett holds that consciousness is not part of reality in the way the brain is. Rather, it is a particularly salient and convincing user-illusion, an illusion that is indispensable in our dealings with one another and in monitoring and managing ourselves, but an illusion nonetheless. You may well ask how consciousness can be an illusion, since every illusion is itself a conscious experience—an appearance that doesn’t correspond to reality. So it cannot appear to me that I am conscious though I am not: as Descartes famously observed, the reality of my own consciousness is the one thing I cannot be deluded about. The way Dennett avoids this apparent contradiction takes us to the heart of his position, which is to deny the authority of the first-person perspective with regard to consciousness and the mind generally.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/03/09/is-consciousness-an-illusion-dennett-evolution/ In other words, if Daniel Dennett’s self-conscious experience (I assume he includes himself) is just an illusion, how does he know that? Without proof I find such a view is not only irrational but totally absurd. To paraphrase Descartes, I am conscious, therefore, I exist. That is self-evident and therefore indubitable. Only a fool would believe otherwise.john_a_designer
July 27, 2018
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SA said:
We can try to arrive at consensus about what one can perceive or not, but in the end there is no argument to defeat a subjective view of reality.
Without some form of independent matter (substance), "subjective" and "objective" as qualities of experience become absurd characterizations.
This is basically insanity and puts the end to rational discourse, as I see it.
From a materialist perspective, I can see your point, but the problem with that view is that "rationality" is not a material quality to begin with. It is a quality of consciousness. It doesn't require commitment to materialist perspectives for validity (even when they wear the cloth of spirituality or religion). Let's remember, it is matter that has been shown not to exist - not consciousness, experience or information. Even if you and I have very different experiences, and prioritize them differently, that doesn't mean there aren't principles that apply to consciousness and information, and how they are interpreted and experienced, that cannot serve as the foundation for rational discourse. The nature of the discourse simply moves away from being a competition of "which experiences are real", to something more along the lines of what those experiences mean to that individual, how they are prioritizing and using them and for whatever purpose, etc. Not every rational discourse has to be a competition for, or a defense of, one's personal concept of what is real and what is not. They can also begin with accepting someone's perspective arguendo, then exploring that perspective rationally.William J Murray
July 27, 2018
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WJM
Unfortunately for both materialists and most non-materialists, this makes an imagined unicorn as real as a brick wall.
Yes, that is the consequence of the idea that matter does not exist.
I’m pointing out that calling one kind of experience “real” and another “not real” existentially is rooted in a disproved ideology – materialism, even if one is not a materialist. There are no non-real experiences, because experience = reality.
You mentioned how we prioritize experiences and whether a consensus experience has some additional value over, for example, a dream or hallucination. But that does not seem significant. We can try to arrive at consensus about what one can perceive or not, but in the end there is no argument to defeat a subjective view of reality. "I see a unicorn over there." The unicorn exists - it is reality. There is no way to refute that. "I dreamed that a chimp became a human". Well, then evolution is correct after all - because the evolutionary claim occured "in reality" in that person's dream. This is basically insanity and puts the end to rational discourse, as I see it.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2018
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jdk @ 35 Thanks for a detailed reply. Yes, you did state your views previously and I appreciate the repetition and elaboration on them.
The issue of consciousness is one of the reasons why I am not a materialist.
I think I understood your views, but at the same time I don't think anybody can easily fit ideas from quantum reality into categories. You are not a materialist as that term is defined in one way, and perhaps you would be considered a materialist in another way ("modern materialist" as you say).
For this reason, I think that the material/immaterial distinction is not the best one for differentiating the modern materialist, the monist, from the dualist who believes that something other than quantum reality is also part of the world as we know and experience it.
In this way, "quantum reality" becomes the new term for "matter and energy" - it's "all there is" for the neo-materialist. I think it will become increasingly more difficult to categorize people, as a result. ID, traditionally, has been focused on "materialism" in the now-antiquated sense of that term. But it's a word used as shorthand, the way we use "Darwinism". But I think it will be a challenge for ID to seek to prove the existence of immaterial entities when it can be said that quantum realities are immaterial. My gut feeling is that the shift from Newtonian matter to quantum realities merely gives neo-materialism a way to escape into an ill-defined world which is governed and 'created' by the same blind, unintelligent forces that created the Newtonian world. With that, the old materialism is not refuted - it is just seen as irrelevant. Perhaps eventually it all turns inward - quantum realities are something we experience and we see consistency and predictability. As you said, a rock still breaks a window. But the focus turns to the individual's perception of reality and not what is 'out there' as much. This becomes the challenge of affirming that our perceptions are real-enough to draw truthful conclusions about what we observe. The ID project remains the same nonetheless. We observe what appears to have been Designed and intelligence is the only known source of such things.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2018
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SA said:
To say that ‘matter does not exist’ provides no problem for materialism.
The problem for materialism with the idea of "monism" in the post-matter world is its relationship to the term "substance". If, as it appears, we exist in a state where primary consciousness is interpreting (collapsing) informational states (information potential is not a "substance") into experiences, then there is no fundamental difference between a dream, a hallucination, and what one experiences as "consensual reality." At the root level, they would all be the mind (primary consciousness) interpreting information. Unfortunately for both materialists and most non-materialists, this makes an imagined unicorn as real as a brick wall. Saying that one is a consensual experience that others can touch and see doesn't make the brick wall any more real than the imagined unicorn; it only makes it a different kind of real experience. If actual reality = primary mind interpreting information into experience, then all experiences are actually real in precisely the same fundamental way. Because one is experienced as more consensual and consistent than the other has no more existential value than saying one is brown and the other red. The "substance" (matter) lynchpin for most concepts of what experience is rooted in was destroyed with the incontrovertible disproving of local reality and 100 years of quantum theory experimentation, which is why the cutting edge of physics is now about information, hologram and simulation theory. Now, do most of us live our lives as if our consensual experience is more important than non-consensual experience? I'm not making a case for how one should prioritize the kinds of experiences they have; I'm pointing out that calling one kind of experience "real" and another "not real" existentially is rooted in a disproved ideology - materialism, even if one is not a materialist. There are no non-real experiences, because experience = reality. How one prioritizes their experiences is up to them. Also, I think it's pretty difficult to even understand what that means for most people, because they are so used to framing everything from a materialist perspective - even non-materialists.William J Murray
July 27, 2018
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Thanks for the thoughtful and civil replies, here and in the Chromatin thread, SA You write,
My comment was an attempt to redefine materialism in a new reality that could affirm that “matter does not exist”. I’m not sure where you stand on that. If you also affirm, that matter does not exist – then you’d need to redefine what materialism actually is. ... So, that’s the challenge for you – what is materialism if matter does not exist?
I think I addressed these questions in 25, but I'll revisit my thoughts: 1. I accept the modern quantum description of reality, where the most basic constituents of physical reality (quarks, photons, electromagnetic fields) are certainly not solid particles at all, although exactly what they are is open to interpretation. But whatever they are, they exist in some ways and at some times in indeterminate and probabilistic states. They are immaterial, in the sense of not being solid "matter" in the old sense, but they are also what the physical world is built up out of. 2. However it is unacceptable reductionism, in my opinion, to say that explaining things in terms of those basic quantum phenomena is the only acceptable level of description. At the level at which we experience things (and not just as perceptions) solid entities exist in a determinate state that interact in a classical sense with similar entities. In this sense, at a higher level of description, matter exists: the rock breaks the window. Matter is made of constituent parts that aren't matter, but that is not reason to say that matter is merely a perception. In other words, matter exists, in the classical sense of solid bodies which interact with other solid bodies according to classical physics and according to the nature of our experience, but we have learned that matter in this sense does not extend to the fundamental basic level of our physical world, as we now understand it . At the fundamental level reality is a different type of phenomena. As I said in 25 above,
Reducing the phenomena to its most basic quantum constituents, which is a valid way of looking at the situation, doesn’t invalidate the existence of higher levels of understanding about the existence and behavior of entities formed from those constituent parts. So, yes, it is true that at the most basic level, matter is immaterial in respect to old conceptions of matter. However, that doesn’t invalidate materialism in the modern sense, which holds that the physical world as understood all the way down to the quantum level is all there is: that it is unitary, not dualistically accompanied by something other than quantum reality.
You write,
I believe that when we say “matter does not exist”, it means that there is no “physical reality reducible to particles”.
I agree with that, and have said something similar above You write,
In my understanding, the new materialism would simply believe that reality is “only what we can observe”.
I don't think that is a very accurate description of modern materialism. I offered above the statement that modern materialism
holds that the physical world as understood all the way down to the quantum level is all there is: that it is unitary, not dualistically accompanied by something other than quantum reality.
The whole question of whether we can actually observe this quantum reality, and in what sense, is one of the philosophical puzzles of quantum theory. The materialist believes that our knowledge of the physical world must be based on empirical evidence, but that is different than saying that reality is only what we can directly observe. You write,
But why is “whatever we observe” the measure of reality? This is especially a problem because we can observe our own thoughts – why are these not reality?
The issue of consciousness is one of the reasons why I am not a materialist. Consciousness may be a phenomena that arises from quantum reality, as the materialist would claim, but it may not be, and there is certainly no solid ideas about how that could be. You write,
You mention “our experience of matter” – but I’m assuming that you accept that “matter does not exist” (correct me if you believe otherwise). If matter does not exist, then “our experience of matter” is illusory. We experience something that we call “reality”, but whatever reality is, it is not reducible to a physical substance, something tangible, or material.
I have explained that I believe that matter exists, but it arises from a quantum reality that is not made of matter, in the classical sense. But the rock, and the window are not illusions. However, I agree with the last sentence in the quote above. You write,
Why would it be reasonable to conclude that there are no immaterial essences?
I'm not sure who has concluded that. In the sense that we have been discussing, quantum reality is immaterial: it is not matter. However, that is not to say that it is somehow not part of the unified fabric of physical reality. The question is, as I said in my comment on the Chromatin thread, one of monism vs dualism. For instance, consciousness may be an "immaterial essence" which is not reducible to quantum reality, but that exists as a separate type of thing that interacts and commingles with the quantum reality of the physical world. That would be a dualistic belief: both photons and consciousness could accurately be called immaterial, but be very different types of things. For this reason, I think that the material/immaterial distinction is not the best one for differentiating the modern materialist, the monist, from the dualist who believes that something other than quantum reality is also part of the world as we know and experience it.jdk
July 26, 2018
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jdk
No, those conclusions (no God, etc.) are consequences of a belief in materialism, but they are not the only, or even the central, point that materialism is making. Materialism is making an affirmative statement about the nature of reality which carries the corallary that there isn’t a second kind of component of reality.
My comment was an attempt to redefine materialism in a new reality that could affirm that "matter does not exist". I'm not sure where you stand on that. If you also affirm, that matter does not exist - then you'd need to redefine what materialism actually is. In my view, materialism is adaptable to a belief that "there is no matter", even though technically materialism should be refuted on that point. So, that's the challenge for you - what is materialism if matter does not exist? I believe that when we say "matter does not exist", it means that there is no "physical reality reducible to particles". In my understanding, the new materialism would simply believe that reality is "only what we can observe". But why is "whatever we observe" the measure of reality? This is especially a problem because we can observe our own thoughts - why are these not reality?
Also, it is certainly not the case that materialism implies that “a hallucination (a perception) is just as real, valid and relevant as any other perception”. Our experience of matter at the human level is about reality, even if quantum phenomena underlie that experience.
You mention "our experience of matter" - but I'm assuming that you accept that "matter does not exist" (correct me if you believe otherwise). If matter does not exist, then "our experience of matter" is illusory. We experience something that we call "reality", but whatever reality is, it is not reducible to a physical substance, something tangible, or material. Why would it be reasonable to conclude that there are no immaterial essences?Silver Asiatic
July 26, 2018
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Not the topic of the thread: see the last paragraph of 28.jdk
July 26, 2018
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That nearly invisible thread back to physicalism, again -- ending in self-referential incoherence undermining the mind being used.kairosfocus
July 25, 2018
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SA: I agree with your first two paragraphs. However, you write,
The only point that materialism is trying to make is that there is no God or gods, no angels, no soul, no afterlife, no miracles.
No, those conclusions (no God, etc.) are consequences of a belief in materialism, but they are not the only, or even the central, point that materialism is making. Materialism is making an affirmative statement about the nature of reality which carries the corallary that there isn't a second kind of component of reality. Also, it is certainly not the case that materialism implies that "a hallucination (a perception) is just as real, valid and relevant as any other perception". Our experience of matter at the human level is about reality, even if quantum phenomena underlie that experience.jdk
July 25, 2018
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jdk
the physical world as understood all the way down to the quantum level is all there is: that it is unitary, not dualistically accompanied by something other than quantum reality.
Agreed. I do not see that materialists are attached to a certain concept of 'matter' but rather of empiricism. All that exists is whatever we can observe, measure, perceive through senses. To say that 'matter does not exist' provides no problem for materialism. It's just another terminology for monism. If there is no matter, there can be nothing that is immaterial ('non-material/non-matter'). That's basically the same thing. The rock and the glass are the same thing as thoughts, design, dreams, intelligence, consciousness, mystical experience, imagination, the soul. Materialism does not rise or fall on whether matter exists or not. The only point that materialism is trying to make is that there is no God or gods, no angels, no soul, no afterlife, no miracles. However to then say 'matter does not exist, therefore whatever you imagine is just as real, just as physical as the rock smashing the window ...' That is the foundation for insanity. It would put an end to science. If there is no matter, then a hallucination (a perception) is just as real, valid and relevant as any other perception.Silver Asiatic
July 25, 2018
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Good summary post by Gordon Davisson at 14: corresponds well with the book "Reality" that I read recently (and learned about here at UD.)jdk
July 25, 2018
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We all agree that the 100 year old model of "matter" as somehow "solid" is outdated, and that we accept the quantum model of reality. Bu, still there is much that is unsettled about what exactly that model means about the nature of reality. Also, there is no question that to human beings, objects that we experience as solid matter exist. But none of this leads to the necessary and settled conclusion that that quantum world is not all there is, and that some dualistic world that includes something other than quantum reality exists. The modern materialist accepts quantum reality, but claims that that quantum reality is exhaustive in terms of accounting for all that is. I'm not arguing that this is true or not. I am saying that WJM's "gauntlet" in the OP misses the point in tying the notion of materialism to an outdated physics that no one believes is true any more.jdk
July 25, 2018
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PS: Let me clip BA77's lede in 18: Dr. Vlatko Vedral, who is a Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and who is a recognized leader in the field of quantum mechanics, states, “The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.kairosfocus
July 25, 2018
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JDK, cf. 17 above and BA in 23 above, also WJM at 21 above. You may also find something in BA77 at 18 ff. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2018
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I am late to the party here (been on vacation), but I find this OP a little odd. Rather than "throwing down the gauntlet", it seems to me that WJM has just erected a great big straw man. He writes,
Materialists are clinging to a pre-Victorian perspective of what it is we are perceiving, long since discarded after over a hundred years of experimental results.
Anyone who knows anything about modern physics during the last 100 years knows that at the most fundamental level, the world is not made of anything that could be considered "matter" in the sense of solid particles of some kind subject to forces in the old Newtonian sense. I don't think any real philosophical materialist, or anyone else, is naively "clinging to" this pre-Victorian perspective. I'm sure a modern materialist position takes the quantum nature of reality into account. However, I think WJM mischaracterizes the nature of what we call matter in ordinary conversation. When I throw a rock through a glass window, the glass shatters: even though the underlying reality behind all this is quantum, our experience, and the experience of the rock and the window, is that quantum particles cohere and act as a unit in ways that react with macro-consequences with other conglomerations of quantum particles. To say that matter, in the sense of the rock and the window, are just "perceptual interpretations" is, I think, a case of extreme reductionism: reducing the phenomena to its most basic quantum constituents, which is a valid way of looking at the situation, doesn't invalidate the existence of higher levels of understanding about the existence and behavior of entities formed from those constituent parts. So, yes, it is true that at the most basic level, matter is immaterial in respect to old conceptions of matter. However, that doesn't invalidate materialism in the modern sense, which holds that the physical world as understood all the way down to the quantum level is all there is: that it is unitary, not dualistically accompanied by something other than quantum reality. To be clear, I am not defending materialism in this sense, and I'm agnostic about materialist. But I think if WJM, or anyone else, wants to argue against materialism, pointing to a 100 year old, out-dated model of matter is not an effective argument at all.jdk
July 24, 2018
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WJM @ your #21 : 'It’s hardly a shock that materialists are attempting to find some way to explain the evidence to comport with their religion.' It's a curious thought, isn't it, that though many materialists presumably would be making their living lecturing on QM, we would still be living in the age of classical mechanistic and reductionist physics, if we had had to rely on them to discover it... since their theoretical physicists would have instinctively rejected the very notion of paradoxes standing in the way of their reductionist, mechanistic pursuit of total knowledge of everything. Copy-cats and parasites, forever doomed to playing 'catch-up'. The sovereign irony is that they would have dismissed the paradoxes of QM as oxymorons ; while today we have the likes of Dawkins positing particularly crass oxymorons of their own fevered magination, as inherently imponderable paradoxes, and 'established science' (unintelligent, serendipitous design of the universe and its 'fine tuning', selfish genes, and a blind and evidently omniscient and omnipotent watchmaking analogue - which must not be called God, or personalised in any way).Axel
July 18, 2018
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KF @ 16. Just so. I do not deny the existence of particles. I do not deny that they have an existence independent of my perception of them. I affirm both of those things. The point is that "matter" is an extremely vague and ambiguous word. And far from demonstrating the unreality of the "immaterial," even science teaches us that "immaterial" is a valid ontological category.Barry Arrington
July 18, 2018
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BA77 everywhere: Love the knowledge. Thanks for sharing!Truth Will Set You Free
July 18, 2018
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