Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Wow! Just Wow!

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

This has never happened to me until today.  I made a prediction about Darwinist debating tactics and the prediction was fulfilled in the very post in which I made it!!! 

In this post I describe the common Darwinist “literature bluff” tactic: 

Note carefully the common Darwinist tactic here:

Literature bluff: There are thousands of books and articles demonstrating Darwinist proposition X.

Calling the bluff: OK, show me exactly where in just one of those books or articles this proposition is established.

Inevitable Darwinist response: [crickets]

Then in the comments section Alan Fox posts this link “beneficial mutations drosophila” in comment 8, and in comment 9 he says:  “One or two article in there must be worth a glance, or am I bluffing?! 

This is the classic literature bluff.  Alan is saying, essentially, “Hey look.  I googled “beneficial mutations drosophila” and got 349,000 hits!  QED, the literature proves that scientists have induced beneficial mutations in drosophila, and that in turn proves beyond doubt the Darwinist position on macroevolution.”   

Astounding.  So let’s see how this unfolds [I feel like Flounder in Animal House:  “Oh boy, this is GREAT!”]

Step 1:  Alan makes his literature bluff as described above.

Step 2:  Sterusjon calls Alans bluff when he writes: 

BEGIN STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Just for kicks, I followed your link in post #8. I found 349,000 Google hits. All well and good. I found numerous hits that were irrelevant to the issue. I found that many of the top links lead to the same paper. On that account the 349,000 number is quite deceptive. In addition that often listed paper defined its “beneficial” mutation as a change that allowed subsequent generations to survive in an artificial environment of >4% NaCl in their food supply that their distant ancestors could not. Oh, the wonders of micro-evolution to bring about macro-differences is thus demonstrated.

I wonder if the salt tolerance would persist if the flies where returned to “normal” feeding conditions? Just as Scambray noted about other “beneficial” mutations.

But more than that, I found these two links:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sci…..23-05.html where I found:

The researchers turned to the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to test this hypothesis. By crafting synthetic chromosomes, they created flies that reproduce asexually. They then established 17 populations of these asexual flies, all with white eyes. For comparison, they also set up 17 populations of white-eyed sexual flies. The team then let the insects breed for 10 generations. They added red-eyed flies and artificially favored the red-eyed gene by adding more red-eyed flies each generation. Thus the red-eyed gene mimicked a beneficial mutation. (Emphasis added by me)

“[A]rtificially…mimicked a beneficial mutation” What’s this. No real beneficial mutations?

And http://harunyahya.com/en/Evrim…..Drosophila where this was to be found:

All evolutionist efforts to establish beneficial mutations have ended in failure. In order to reverse this pattern, evolutionists have for decades been carrying out experiments on fruit flies, which reproduce very quickly and which can easily be subjected to mutations. Scientists have encouraged these insects to undergo all kinds of mutations, a great many times. However, not one single useful mutation has ever been observed.

The evolutionist geneticist Gordon R. Taylor describes these evolutionists’ pointless persistence:

It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world—flies which produce a new generation every eleven days—they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.

Another researcher, Michael Pitman, expresses the failure of the experiments on fruit flies:

. . . geneticists have subjected generations of fruit flies to extreme conditions of heat, cold, light, dark, and treatment by chemicals and radiation. All sorts of mutations, practically all trivial or positively deleterious, have been produced. Man-made evolution? Not really: Few of the geneticists’ monsters could have survived outside the bottles they were bred in. In practice mutants die, are sterile, or tend to revert to the wild type.

In short, like all other living things, fruit flies possess specially created genetic information. The slightest alteration in that information only leads to harm.

(Citation links removed)

If appears that more of the “evidence” is contrary to your position.

Are you bluffing? Yes! If you know where the evidence is buried in your 349,000 hits, please point to it with specificity. My perusal indicates it is not so easy to find. I’m calling your bluff.

Stephen 

END STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Now, let me make another prediction.  The third step that I described [i.e., “crickets”] will now follow.  Don’t get me wrong.  Alan and others will likely post comments at a frenetic pace in response to Stephen’s work.  What you will not see is any comment that actually demonstrates that the drosophila mutation experiments establish Darwinist claims beyond dispute as the Darwinists so often claim.

Classic.

Comments
Alan Fox: Genomicus has provided a good response in #20. It is also worth keeping in mind that a legitimate -- indeed important -- part of drawing conclusions in the historical sciences involves analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of competing hypotheses. Darwin, Dawkins and other prominent evolutionists have regularly argued against design as part of their effort to support a naturalistic evolutionary scenario. I personally find their arguments to be incredibly lacking, but I do recognize that as a general principle the exercise of comparing and analyzing competing hypotheses is a legitimate exercise. Finally, it is perfectly legitimate to critique a theory on its own merits. And if a theory is lacking, then any rational critique of that theory is helpful in its own right. So the above points may explain part of the reason for the regular challenges to purely materialistic origins hypotheses. All that said, I think you make a fair point that we could probably all do a better job of spending our time articulating the value of our own positions (like Genomicus has done) instead of just beating up on the other guy's position, even if feels rather satisfying to beat up on a weak theory. Some of the most prominent ID proponents have done a good job of laying out -- in an objective, rational and professional way -- the reasons for their positions (Meyer and Behe, in particular, in their recent books).Eric Anderson
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
10:19 PM
10
10
19
PM
PDT
Eric Anderson @19, I like your thinking.Mapou
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
10:01 PM
10
10
01
PM
PDT
Alan Fox:
What you should realise is that I am curious to establish if anyone can honestly lay out a positive theory of “Intelligent Design” but the daily fodder is almost invariably something about the inadequacies of Darwinism.
Here: http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=16487 In that brief essay, I provide a cursory overview of an ID hypothesis of the design of molecular machines. Mike Gene has also written quite a bit on the ID hypothesis of front-loading, a positive ID hypothesis. Yes, the "daily fodder" often does consist of attacking Darwinian evolution. But there are some independent ID thinkers out there who are far more interested in developing ID into a rigorous hypothesis than in critiquing Darwinian evolution.Genomicus
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
08:18 PM
8
08
18
PM
PDT
Alan Fox @14:
So ID claims to explain what, that evolution is almost true but needs the odd bit of design?
I wouldn't say evolution is "almost true" across the board. Rather, that there are some aspects of evolution that are true. ID folks acknowledge the fact (which should be patently obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a while) that there are things caused by law-like processes, by chance, and by design. We regularly see all three processes at work in the world. There is nothing odd about it at all. The committed materialist, however, denies the existence of design as a causal explanation. That is indeed pretty odd. Well, let me rephrase that. They acknowledge the existence of design, as does everybody, but in the same breath claim (due to an a priori philosophical commitment and not on the basis of any hard evidence) that design must not be considered as a possible explanation when we are talking of things biological. So, yes, ID proponents are perfectly happy to accept traditional evolutionary explanations when there is decent evidence for them (finch beaks, etc.). We are more interested in accepting the facts and following the evidence where it leads, than committing beforehand to some philosophical position that limits possible explanations before we even get started. ID proponents are perfectly happy if a fair amount of biology is reducible to chance and necessity. But we argue that some aspects -- indeed the key aspects -- are indicative of design. Yes, ID can accept legitimate documented examples of blind undirected evolution. Materialistic evolution, in contrast, is a take-no-prisoners, admit-no-exceptions kind of theory. It cannot admit to even a single instance of design or it crumbles. Which is pretty sad, because everyone knows that some things exist by design in the real world -- it is a real cause. The bottom line is that design proponents have a broader toolkit, a broader paradigm, from which to work.Eric Anderson
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
07:31 PM
7
07
31
PM
PDT
Alan Fox:
So ID claims to explain what, that evolution is almost true but needs the odd bit of design?
ID claims to explain what the blind watchmaker cannot- mainly living organisms, all of their systems, subsystems, and semiotic relationships. Intelligent Design Evolution, when finished, will include, ie posit, that organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design, ala Dr Spetner's "non-random evolutionary hypothesis" and the mechanism of "built-in responses to environmental cues". Darwin posited natural selection as a designer mimic, and it hasn't panned out. Yet people still cling to it. IDE will posit genetic programming controlling the genetic changes, by design. Living organisms are really run by information- Information Technology-type of information. But right now Intelligent Design is just interested in detecting and then studying design in nature so that we may properly understand what we are observing. And as for "distiling a theory", strange that we are still waiting for you to link to the alleged theory of evolution.Joe
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
Also, the honesty of our luminaries. I've wondered for ages why atheists find so little of interest in their own blogs that, like you, they spend most of their time on blogs on ID or the Christianity they fear it could lead to; not to speak of broken careers. How does a lecturer tell a class of undergraduates, 'Hey we got it all wrong about Evolution. It was never really based on empirical research, which, in fact, consistently disproved it. Sorry about that.'Axel
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
You seem to be labouring under an almighty misapprehension. However highly you rate your own appraisal of ID, or of I should imagine of just about anything else, as a self-confessed ignorant layman, your appraisal is not, in fact, universally perceived as having even marginally expert value, nor your reasoning of a perceptibly adult quality; nor, indeed, are your putative rebuttals of the informed and reasoned statements of empirical facts set out for you by imo overly patient experts, matters that would weigh heavily on their minds. You showed something of the amplitude of your ignorance and folly by rubbishing this blog as one that would barely be known at all in the scientific community - when in fact, the boot is on the other foot. The atheist blogs could all have be written by Dawkins' teenage groupies, from what I gather on here. And pardon me, if I repose more trust in the wisdom, intelligence and scholarship of the likes of kairosfocus, Cornelius Hunter, Barry Arrington, Timaeus, bornagain77 and the esteemed Mung, than the false Coynes and discordant Carrols of the Dark Side. Renegade Catholic jackeens, I've nae doot.Axel
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
04:07 PM
4
04
07
PM
PDT
I posted about this very topic some time back. Here's the thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/does-genetic-variance-cause-increased-fitness-a-la-ra-fisher/ It deals with a 1963 paper describing experiments conducted on Drosophila. Net result: nothing. Here's the link to a digitalized copy of the '63 article. This is the last sentence of the paper: Newly induced mutations do not appear to provide an important source of genetic diversity whereby fitness can be improved in experimental populations where natural selection is operating. Here's the rest of the SUMMARY: "Two experimental populations of the sepia-spineless-rough stock of Drosophila melanogaster each received 65,000r of X rays over a period of two and half years. Two control populations were handled in an identical manner but received NO RADIATION. (emp. mine) All four populations were discarded one year after the cessation of irradiation of the experimentals. The method of handling permitted weekly measurement of population size of all populations, affording a measure of fitness of the populations. As expected, the size of the experimental populations declines under radiation. Population size is recoverd rapidly when radiation is suspended. Although one of the experimental populations maintained an elevated fitness level at several times for a number of generations, these effects WERE REVERSED and at the end of the experiment, controls and experimentals DID NOT DIFFER FROM ONE ANOTHER. Following the cessation of the irradiation, the genetic loads of the irradiated populations were found to be elevated reltive to the controls. These increased loads, however, disappeared within a year." Darwinism should have folded up its tent and gone into hiding back then.PaV
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
Why earlier this very day kf was kind enough to set out the positive case for design for him. Again. Maybe Alan missed it.
I don't generally read G's posts but I am willing to have a look. Link to it.
And one has to wonder how many times Alan’s been told that ID is not a replacement theory for the theory of common descent. Is it any wonder then why no one here ever explains the “ID alternative” to him?
So ID claims to explain what, that evolution is almost true but needs the odd bit of design? Does it get any more explanatory than that?Alan Fox
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
03:34 PM
3
03
34
PM
PDT
Alan the Troll. He never listens, never learns, just repeats himself ad nauseum. Why earlier this very day kf was kind enough to set out the positive case for design for him. Again. Maybe Alan missed it. And one has to wonder how many times Alan's been told that ID is not a replacement theory for the theory of common descent. Is it any wonder then why no one here ever explains the "ID alternative" to him?Mung
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
Sterusjohn
Either way, he appears to be scoring points for our side. Yeah! Alan!
Happy to oblige. Though do you really think a few comments on an obscure (yet the only active, as far as I am aware) pro-ID blog site has much impact in the real world and especially the field of science and technology? Scientific endeavour continues, unaware of the great controversy raging here. It's not just me not taking ID seriously.Alan Fox
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
Another fruit fly experiment where researchers could not get a beneficial allele to spread throughout the population. Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila Burke et al. 2010 Signatures of selection are qualitatively different than what has been observed in asexual species; in our sexual populations, adaptation is not associated with ‘classic’ sweeps whereby newly arising, unconditionally advantageous mutations become fixed... We conclude that, at least for life history characters such as development time, unconditionally advantageous alleles rarely arise, are associated with small net fitness gains or cannot fix because selection coefficients change over time. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7315/abs/nature09352.html This appears to be part of the reason evolutionists are completely reliant on bacteria for any examples of fixation.lifepsy
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
03:02 PM
3
03
02
PM
PDT
Perhaps it’s time for Fox’s Law?
I was thinking more along the lines of Fox's Book of Non-Starters.Mung
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
02:58 PM
2
02
58
PM
PDT
Anyone able to distil out an alternative theory from Joe's post above?Alan Fox
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
02:49 PM
2
02
49
PM
PDT
Alan Fox:
I’d still be interested to hear of alternative explanations to the observed diversity of life on Earth.
Alternative to what? Do you really think that saying the diversity of life is due accumulations of genetic accidents is a viable scenario? That flies in the face of all observations, experiences and experiments. The positive theory of Intelligent Design is the same as for archaeology, forensic science and SETI- that is when agencies act they tend to leave traces of their actions behind. Traces that we can then detect and study. As for the inadequecies of darwinism, again that has been explained to you ad nauseum. This is why no one takes you seriously, Alan. You talk about evolution yet cannot reference the theory. You talk about ID not having any evidence without a clue as to what evidence is. And to top it off you "learned" about ID from press clippings and propaganda posts about a trial in which the defendents themselves were ignorant of the concept. PatheticJoe
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PDT
BA, My musing was about "accidentally" corrected errors. Thus offering the evolutionist a crumb before snatching it away with the SLOT. I am also aware of the "purposeful" correction of system errors via seperate repair systems. How unDarwinian is that?! Stephensterusjon
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
I’m still unsure of whether Alan Fox is an actual Darwinist, or an anti-Darwinist sarcastically mocking the typical Darwinist. Perhaps it’s time for Fox’s Law?
Jammer, I'm a layman with a very-out-of-date background in biochemistry. I was laid up for a few months when the Dover events occurred and prior to that I had not heard of "Intelligent Design". I had the time to follow events quite closely for a while and now it's difficult to break the habit. What you should realise is that I am curious to establish if anyone can honestly lay out a positive theory of "Intelligent Design" but the daily fodder is almost invariably something about the inadequacies of Darwinism. I am no expert and feel under no obligation to convince anyone about the facts and theories of evolution. There are many more qualified and certainly more motivated than me. However, misconceptions, not to say misrepresentations, crop up here so often it's hard for me not to bite sometimes. I'd still be interested to hear of alternative explanations to the observed diversity of life on Earth.Alan Fox
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
02:07 PM
2
02
07
PM
PDT
Jammer, I know what you mean. I have often thought, "Alan, are you serious?" Either way, he appears to be scoring points for our side. Yeah! Alan! Stephensterusjon
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
02:02 PM
2
02
02
PM
PDT
I'm still unsure of whether Alan Fox is an actual Darwinist, or an anti-Darwinist sarcastically mocking the typical Darwinist. Perhaps it's time for Fox's Law?Jammer
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
sterusjon:
I have little doubt that, on rare occasions, an error can be accidentally corrected before the system degradation goes so far as to be irreversible.
I just read this:
"Well, back to fruit flies. Because fruit flies reproduce many generations in a very short time, scientists picked them for the experiment hoping to compress thousands of years of `evolution' into a few years of lab work. "After 80 years and millions of generations of fruit flies subjected to X rays and chemicals which cause mutations, all they have been able to produce are more of the same: fruit flies. "And—more importantly—they have all been no better or stronger, and many have been weaker. All the changes eventually reached limits that, when approached, the strains of the fruit flies grew progressively weaker and died. "And when the mutated strains were allowed to breed for several generations, they gradually changed back to the original form. "One experiment produced fruit flies without eyes. Yet, after a few life cycles, flies with eyes began to appear. Some kind of genetic repair mechanism took over and blocked any possibility of evolution. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/10mut10.htm
bornagain77
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
Joe, I often wonder how many "beneficial" mutations are actually restorations to a previously existing, better, state. I have little doubt that, on rare occasions, an error can be accidentlly corrected before the system degredation goes so far as to be irreversible. Especially, where the system is still under some selection pressure. In a couple of Alan's proported "proof texts" regarding "benefical" mutations I noted an implicit assumption that the "beneficial" trait/mutation was also a novel trait/mutation. Stephensterusjon
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
01:32 PM
1
01
32
PM
PDT
1- Beneficial is relative- it can involve a loss of function or a loss of specificity 2- Just because mutations occur does NOT mean they are all genetic accidents/ errors/ mistakes, as evolutionism requires.Joe
March 4, 2013
March
03
Mar
4
04
2013
01:06 PM
1
01
06
PM
PDT
1 10 11 12

Leave a Reply