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Wow! Just Wow!

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This has never happened to me until today.  I made a prediction about Darwinist debating tactics and the prediction was fulfilled in the very post in which I made it!!! 

In this post I describe the common Darwinist “literature bluff” tactic: 

Note carefully the common Darwinist tactic here:

Literature bluff: There are thousands of books and articles demonstrating Darwinist proposition X.

Calling the bluff: OK, show me exactly where in just one of those books or articles this proposition is established.

Inevitable Darwinist response: [crickets]

Then in the comments section Alan Fox posts this link “beneficial mutations drosophila” in comment 8, and in comment 9 he says:  “One or two article in there must be worth a glance, or am I bluffing?! 

This is the classic literature bluff.  Alan is saying, essentially, “Hey look.  I googled “beneficial mutations drosophila” and got 349,000 hits!  QED, the literature proves that scientists have induced beneficial mutations in drosophila, and that in turn proves beyond doubt the Darwinist position on macroevolution.”   

Astounding.  So let’s see how this unfolds [I feel like Flounder in Animal House:  “Oh boy, this is GREAT!”]

Step 1:  Alan makes his literature bluff as described above.

Step 2:  Sterusjon calls Alans bluff when he writes: 

BEGIN STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Just for kicks, I followed your link in post #8. I found 349,000 Google hits. All well and good. I found numerous hits that were irrelevant to the issue. I found that many of the top links lead to the same paper. On that account the 349,000 number is quite deceptive. In addition that often listed paper defined its “beneficial” mutation as a change that allowed subsequent generations to survive in an artificial environment of >4% NaCl in their food supply that their distant ancestors could not. Oh, the wonders of micro-evolution to bring about macro-differences is thus demonstrated.

I wonder if the salt tolerance would persist if the flies where returned to “normal” feeding conditions? Just as Scambray noted about other “beneficial” mutations.

But more than that, I found these two links:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sci…..23-05.html where I found:

The researchers turned to the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to test this hypothesis. By crafting synthetic chromosomes, they created flies that reproduce asexually. They then established 17 populations of these asexual flies, all with white eyes. For comparison, they also set up 17 populations of white-eyed sexual flies. The team then let the insects breed for 10 generations. They added red-eyed flies and artificially favored the red-eyed gene by adding more red-eyed flies each generation. Thus the red-eyed gene mimicked a beneficial mutation. (Emphasis added by me)

“[A]rtificially…mimicked a beneficial mutation” What’s this. No real beneficial mutations?

And http://harunyahya.com/en/Evrim…..Drosophila where this was to be found:

All evolutionist efforts to establish beneficial mutations have ended in failure. In order to reverse this pattern, evolutionists have for decades been carrying out experiments on fruit flies, which reproduce very quickly and which can easily be subjected to mutations. Scientists have encouraged these insects to undergo all kinds of mutations, a great many times. However, not one single useful mutation has ever been observed.

The evolutionist geneticist Gordon R. Taylor describes these evolutionists’ pointless persistence:

It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world—flies which produce a new generation every eleven days—they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.

Another researcher, Michael Pitman, expresses the failure of the experiments on fruit flies:

. . . geneticists have subjected generations of fruit flies to extreme conditions of heat, cold, light, dark, and treatment by chemicals and radiation. All sorts of mutations, practically all trivial or positively deleterious, have been produced. Man-made evolution? Not really: Few of the geneticists’ monsters could have survived outside the bottles they were bred in. In practice mutants die, are sterile, or tend to revert to the wild type.

In short, like all other living things, fruit flies possess specially created genetic information. The slightest alteration in that information only leads to harm.

(Citation links removed)

If appears that more of the “evidence” is contrary to your position.

Are you bluffing? Yes! If you know where the evidence is buried in your 349,000 hits, please point to it with specificity. My perusal indicates it is not so easy to find. I’m calling your bluff.

Stephen 

END STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Now, let me make another prediction.  The third step that I described [i.e., “crickets”] will now follow.  Don’t get me wrong.  Alan and others will likely post comments at a frenetic pace in response to Stephen’s work.  What you will not see is any comment that actually demonstrates that the drosophila mutation experiments establish Darwinist claims beyond dispute as the Darwinists so often claim.

Classic.

Comments
Alan Fox: Axel: I repose more trust in the wisdom, intelligence and scholarship of the likes of kairosfocus, Cornelius Hunter, Barry Arrington, Timaeus, bornagain77 and the esteemed Mung, Alan Fox: Laymen all! Alan, are you saying that you yourself are more than a "layman" when it comes to evolutionary biology? If so, please state your qualifications: degrees earned, scientific research experience in evolutionary biology or related fields, publications in biology journals, etc.Timaeus
March 5, 2013
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The article I previously linked to underscores the frustration that ID proponents experience when speaking to diehard materialists. Some at least seem willing to countenance the possibility of intelligent agency in situations where it might be just barely apparent (e.g. debris patterns). Then these same folks turn around and reject a priori the design inference in cases where the appearance of design is positively overwhelming .Optimus
March 5, 2013
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Alan, my point is too simple for you to grasp. What was it about crop circles that made people wonder if they weren't human generated?
Crop circles could be said to be examples of intelligent design if you allow that intelligent designers are invariably people and all takes place in the real world without violations of the “laws” of physics.
In other words, if we're willing to make some unscientific assumptions, we can believe anything.
If you say that intelligent designers also in some mysterious way tinker with the space time continuum, then no.
Not sure what that even means, really. I think you're just babbling. So if humans or some advanced intelligent species creates an object or objects with sufficient mass to affect the curvature of space, that could not possibly be intelligently designed?Mung
March 5, 2013
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This seems relevant to a discussion of design inferences. I think the most interesting part is when the writer says that in principle there should be a way to distinguish between a natural event and the remnants of alien activity... http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/03/04/173462033/want-to-find-aliens-look-for-their-detritusOptimus
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox: Crop circles could be said to be examples of intelligent design if (..)
Mr. Fox, how do you infer that crop circles are designed?Box
March 5, 2013
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Intelligent design means designed by an intelligent agent. Are crop circles examples of ID?
Crop circles could be said to be examples of intelligent design if you allow that intelligent designers are invariably people and all takes place in the real world without violations of the "laws" of physics. If you say that intelligent designers also in some mysterious way tinker with the space time continuum, then no.Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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What's your point, mung? Do you think crop circles were executed by "an agency"? What have people flattening corn in admittedly impressive patterns got to do with a theory that replaces/adds to* evolution? *pick your own flavour of ID.Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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I’ll make my answer as simple as I can. I have no idea what you mean by “intelligent design”.
Intelligent design means designed by an intelligent agent. Are crop circles examples of ID?William J Murray
March 5, 2013
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I'll make my answer as simple as I can. I have no idea what you mean by "intelligent design". Crop circles are conceived and executed by people. Doug Bower and Dave Chorley were very clever in their execution but I think they were a bit daft to prance about in cornfields at night.Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox:
A few perpetrators have been caught in the act.
So? You don't have directly observational evidence from your own experience and for all you know the perpetrators "caught in the act" were merely imitators rather than originators. But why the need to "catch" anyone "in the act"? It's like you knew the circles were designed, even though you didn't know by whom or how it was done.
A couple of early craftsmen demonstrated their methods on TV.
So? Perhaps they were merely imitators rather than originators. I'm sure you can see scientists modifying DNA on TV too. Does that mean DNA was designed?Mung
March 5, 2013
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I'll make it even simpler, Alan. Are crop circles an example of ID? Yes or no.William J Murray
March 5, 2013
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I am sure people make crop circles. What do you think, William?
That wasn't the question I asked, Alan. Are you incapable of answering a simple question? Are crop circles an example of ID, or an analogy?William J Murray
March 5, 2013
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ID does not identify the designer. Indeed, it is not possible from ID to identify the designer, although we can learn something about a designer’s capabilities and perhaps even purposes from the artifacts left by the designer.
How speculative are you being here? These artefacts would be what?Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox @31:
That’s clearly using “design” as a noun. Yet your definitions are all for the verb.
Seriously? You do know that nouns and verbs are semantically related, I hope. I just took several of the first few entries in the first dictionary I looked at to make the point that there is no special, cryptic meaning involved -- just plain ol' English. I could of course turn the verbs into their applicable nouns, but I'll leave that challenging intellectual undertaking to you. Or you could crack open a dictionary . . .
But we are talking people here. Surely you are not suggesting “design” in the context of ID theory is brought about by people, are you? Then what is the thing that is producing “design” in living organisms?
Not modern or future man, obviously, as I don't buy into the circular time travel approach. :) If you're trying to identify the designer I have some bad news for you. ID does not identify the designer. Indeed, it is not possible from ID to identify the designer, although we can learn something about a designer's capabilities and perhaps even purposes from the artifacts left by the designer.Eric Anderson
March 5, 2013
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A few perpetrators have been caught in the act. A couple of early craftsmen demonstrated their methods on TV. link to youtube videoAlan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox: I am sure people make crop circles. No doubt you have observed them in the process.Mung
March 5, 2013
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I am sure people make crop circles. What do you think, William?Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox:
William, do you think something other than people make crop circles?
Random mutations and natural selection make crop circles. Why on earth would you think they were designed? That's just silly.Mung
March 5, 2013
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William, do you think something other than people make crop circles?Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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I guess Alan is no longer even pretending to be serious.William J Murray
March 5, 2013
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Is a crop circle an example of intelligent design, or an analogy?
Human design without a doubt! Intelligent? Debatable!Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Eric you said:
...denies the existence of design as a causal explanation.
That's clearly using "design" as a noun. Yet your definitions are all for the verb. Now I am quite familiar with the idea of people designing things and then making them. The noun "design" might refer to the plan for a house or the result. But we are talking people here. Surely you are not suggesting "design" in the context of ID theory is brought about by people, are you? Then what is the thing that is producing "design" in living organisms? And have you any suggestion as to what an act of "design" would involve? A discontinuity?Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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WJM @28: I clicked on your link and when I saw the first one that came up I said out loud: "Oh, that one is beautiful!"Eric Anderson
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox @27:
Unless you clarify what you mean by “design” in the context of the observed pattern of diversity of extant and extinct life, then you should not be surprised when you are asked what you mean. What do you mean by “design” in this context?
I don't play semantic games. When I talk about "design" I mean design in the very straightforward, everyday, common, ordinary usage of the word. Let's grab just a couple of quick dictionary definitions: - to prepare the preliminary sketch or plans for an object; - to plan and fashion artistically of skilfully; - to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan; - to plan and fashion the form and structure of an object, work of art, etc. There is no need for us to count angels dancing on the head of a pin here. This is pretty straightforward.Eric Anderson
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox: Is a crop circle an example of intelligent design, or an analogy?William J Murray
March 5, 2013
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The committed materialist, however, denies the existence of design as a causal explanation.
Unless you clarify what you mean by "design" in the context of the observed pattern of diversity of extant and extinct life, then you should not be surprised when you are asked what you mean. What do you mean by "design" in this context?Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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@ genomicus Interesting you should mention Mike Gene. On another (now defunct) blog, Telic Thoughts, I was referred to Mike's self-published tome "The Design Matrix" as containing evidence for "Intelligent Design". Rashly, I bought it and was disappointed to find no such evidence merely chapter on chapter of bad analogies, faces on Mars and the like. I did post a review at Amazon if you're interested. I encountered Mike posting at BioLogos later, where he said the evidence would all be in the follow-up volume. So far, it hasn't appeared. Anyway, Mike told me he was expelled from UD, not sure why, maybe for being too mainstream. The other exponent of "front-loading", (in this case a development of Goldschmidt's hopeful monster theory) was the late John Davison. Another evolutionary critic whose face didn't quite fit here. The trouble with both Mike and John's ideas is that they fail to explain half of what evolutionary theory encompasses at its core. That is niche adaptation. Evolution explains why a particular organism fits its particular niche. Front loading leaves this to "the designer".Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Axel:
However highly you rate your own appraisal of ID, or of I should imagine of just about anything else, as a self-confessed ignorant layman, your appraisal is not, in fact, universally perceived as having even marginally expert value, nor your reasoning of a perceptibly adult quality; nor, indeed, are your putative rebuttals of the informed and reasoned statements of empirical facts set out for you by imo overly patient experts, matters that would weigh heavily on their minds.
Simpler would have been "no-one cares what you think". Look; ID proponents can carry on muttering amongst themselves on ring-fenced blogs until the cows come home. It must become a little wearying after a while and where is it getting ID theory? Certainly not noticed! Alternatively, someone can venture out into the wider world and try and present a coherent theory of ID. It might be tough, it will depend on the possibility of ID being a valid concept (which is far from obvious), otherwise, carry on as you are.
I repose more trust in the wisdom, intelligence and scholarship of the likes of kairosfocus, Cornelius Hunter, Barry Arrington, Timaeus, bornagain77 and the esteemed Mung,
Laymen all!
than the false Coynes and discordant Carrols of the Dark Side. Renegade Catholic jackeens, I’ve nae doot.
I think Jerry Coyne is Jewish actually!Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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mung:
kf is one of the most prolific...
Well, that's one way of putting it. I would have thought it would be a golden opportunity for you to point out this slam-dunk of an ID theory.Alan Fox
March 5, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I don’t generally read G’s posts but I am willing to have a look. Link to it.
No. kf is one of the most prolific at laying out the positive argument for ID that you claim is missing. It's no wonder then that you don't generally read his posts.Mung
March 5, 2013
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