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Write this Day Down: Liddle and Arrington Agree (on Some Things at Least)

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EL: “why is there something rather than nothing? I do not think it can be resolved by science. But I could be wrong.”

No, you are not wrong. Science is the study of the natural world. It presupposes the existence and intelligibility of the natural world. It cannot account for the existence and intelligibility of the natural world.

EL: “I think we will find that life is not particularly unlikely, given the universe we have.”

There is no particular reason to believe this other than that it suits your metaphysical predisposition to reject ID. It is no different from saying “life is a brute fact that I can’t explain.”

EL: “fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of scientific enquiry in general, and of the motivation behind multiverse hypotheses”

The multiverse is not a scientific hypothesis. It is a metaphysical assertion. The hypothesis that any universe exists (much less multiple universes) other than the one in which we live is not testable (how could it be?) and thus not falsifiable even in principle.

I understand the motivation behind the multiverse hypothesis well enough.  Materialists understand that 13.7 billion years of monkeys pounding on typewriters are insufficient to account for even a single line of Shakespeare, much less to assemble a simple functional protein by sheer random chance.  They need infinite monkeys.  And since this universe cannot provide them with infinite monkeys, they need to conjure up more universes: Poof the multiverse.

EL quotes BKA: “The materialist answer to [why does the universe exist]: I dunno.” And then writes: “Yes indeed. But then, in a sense, so is the theological one. Even if we give the answer as “God”, that leaves a vast mystery. I dunno what God is.”

I am glad we agree about both of these assertions: (1) the materialist has no answer to why the universe exists. (2) God may be an answer, but He is a mystery. My point is not that God is an “understandable” answer to why the universe exists. My point is that God is a rational answer to why the universe exists. It is NOT rational to believe the universe is all there is, because that leads to the irrational conclusion that the universe can account for its own existence.

EL: “I would agree that the universe (in other words the reality that we know has existed since Big Bang) did not cause itself.”

Why limit the universe to the reality we know since the Big Bang? That leaves the Big Bang unaccounted for, and it is part of the reality we know (at least that is science’s current, provisional, best understanding of the reality we know).

EL: “That does not to me rule out the possibility that non-existence is an unstable state:

Absolutely false. Pure nonbeing is the most stable state imaginable.

EL: “and that things do “pop into existence” from time to time.”

Things do not pop into existence from a state of pure nonbeing. Here again, the standard equivocation of Hawking and his ilk. The quantum vacuum is not nothing.

EL: “We even have some evidence that this is true, and that “existence” is not a straightforward matter. At quantum level, “things” don’t seem to be “things” in the way that macroscopic things are things – with stability as to place and time.”

We have no evidence that things pop into existence from a state of pure nonbeing. That is a logical impossibility. Nothing comes from nothing. It is a contradiction in terms to say that something comes from nothing. It is true that “things” are different at the quantum level than at the classical level, but they are still “things.” That you can only describe them as such is all we need to know. Again, the quantum vacuum is not nothing in the sense of pure nonbeing.

EL: “The reason I stopped is that I could see no reason to assume that [], whatever it is, is the God of Love I worshipped.”

How immensely sad. I see at least five reasons: (1) the hole in his right hand; (2) the hole in his left hand; (3) the hole in his right foot; (4) the hole in his left foot; and (5) the hole in his side.

EL:  “So my current position is that life, minds, meaning, purpose even God, certainly Love, and are an emergent property of the universe, not its cause.”

Ah yes, the emergent property materialist poofery confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation.  You might as well have written “and then a miracle happened.”

Summary: EL, I am glad that we agree on so much today.

Comments
Nothing=NO THING. As is, NOT ANYTHING. Billy:I had nothing for breakfast Bob: Oh, was it tasty and nutritious? LOL.kuartus
July 12, 2013
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'Well, it is true that if “nothing” – no space, no time – is “unstable” as I put it – then it has a property, if only the property of instability, and leads us to ask: why? But equally, one could ask: why shouldn’t it?' EL: No... 'Nothing' solely exists as a concept, potentially describable solely in terms of possessing no properties. Since it exists solely as a concept it has no autonomous properties, any properties which might be ascribed to 'nothing' being created self-referentially in the mind. Outside of the mind nothing exists even as a concept, and that includes, of course, an unstable nothingness. That's quite weird. I hadn't meant to say 'nothing' in the sense of 'no thing', but as a concept. However, it immediately occurred to me that, in fact, quantum mechanics indicates that to be the case, doesn't it? No material thing even exists outside the mind, never mind concepts. Well.. it's easy to talk a lot of tosh with this kind of J Alfred Prufrock kind of musing, but that's how it seems to me. In fact, if I did a lot of it, I think I'd end up wishing I were a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas.Axel
July 12, 2013
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There's a nice argument by Hegel to the effect that neither "being" nor "nothing" ("non-being") are fully coherent concepts, but that both are 'abstractions' from the concept of becoming. Here's the link: Being, Nothing, and Becoming. I would guess that summaries are available on-line for those who can't take the time to learn how to read Hegelese.Kantian Naturalist
July 12, 2013
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EL; try the standard understanding of nothing, NO + THING, or non-being. a Quantum foam ever bubbling with energy and virtual particles etc is NOT nothing. Never mind verbal sleight of hand that tries to pretend otherwise. KF
I don't think it's a verbal sleight of hand, KF. I think it defies words completely. But I'm not making a strong case one way or another. My case is that whatever it is that is the reason for something other than nothing, and which I refer to as [], we don't understand it. We can only try to figure out what it is not.
Elizabeth B Liddle
July 12, 2013
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Barb: First of all, I am not any kind of an expert on fancy physics. So you may well know more about this stuff than I do. But I'll have a shot at responding anyway:
EL: “I haven’t yet seen a definition of “nothing” that doesn’t cover a quantum vacuum. But I’m prepared to be persuaded that there is one.” I’ve heard a quantum vacuum defined as a sea of energy. It can be described by physical laws. If this is the case, then where did the quantum vacuum come from? You’ve simply pushed back the issue of creation. If quantum physical laws operate within a domain that’s described by quantum physics, you can’t legitimately use quantum physics to explain the origin of that domain itself.
Well, it is true that if "nothing" - no space, no time - is "unstable" as I put it - then it has a property, if only the property of instability, and leads us to ask: why? But equally, one could ask: why shouldn't it? But I do agree that the question is unanswerable in anyway in which we could understand, which is why I turn to an Aquinas-like position and say: [] (my way of expressing a place holder) is the reason there is something rather than nothing. We can then start to ask: what is [] not? My issue is not that we can answer that question, but that we can say something about what it is not. And it seems to me that one of the things it cannot be is a mind because minds, in my view, are a result of bodies, not something added to them. But I do understand that most people here would disagree. Personally I think it's a much more relevant question to the issue of whether there is a creator God than the issue of whether there is one universe or many, or whether the universe had a beginning, or whether life was a result if special intervention or a (planned or otherwise) result of the workings out of physics and chemistry. I think, in other words, that he issue of whether a mind could precede matter is a really important one for theism and theology - I see no problem, on the other hand, in reconciling theism with a scientifically explicable material world. tbh, as I've said, I think it makes more sense, but again, I accept that most here would disagree.
You stated that you believe that things can and do pop into existence from a state of nonbeing. Where is the verifiable evidence for this? If something has a beginning, there must be something that caused it to have a beginning. In real life, we never see things coming into existence from nothing, subatomic particles included.
Well, virtual particles sort of do. But as I was trying to say, things and processes and probabilities start to merge into each other at that scale, so whether you describe something as "popping into existence" or not seems to depend on the math. The amazing thing to me about fancy physics is that you see all these hairy looking equations and fanciful diagrams that stand for things that make no sense at all at ourclassical scale - particles moving backwards in time, popping into existence - and yet quantum physics makes empirical predictions with extraordinary accuracy. Hence the expression: "shut up and calculate!"
The particles were always there, but we didn’t have the equipment to detect them. Or our understanding of physics didn’t allow us to consider that they might have existed.
Well, that might be yet another way of putting it! Is "potential existence" the same as existence?
I don’t worry that while I’m away at work, a dog is going to pop into my living room, uncaused, out of a state of nonbeing, and begin chasing my cat. These things simply do not ever happen.
True, and for the same reason that nobody will ever toss 500 heads :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 12, 2013
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EL; try the standard understanding of nothing, NO + THING, or non-being. a Quantum foam ever bubbling with energy and virtual particles etc is NOT nothing. Never mind verbal sleight of hand that tries to pretend otherwise. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2013
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Chesterton: I'm not sure I'm understanding your question, but I'm suggesting that what we call "things" are systems with properties not possessed by the parts that compose them or the things that generate them. So I'd say that a mind is a "thing" generated by a brain serving a body, which are in turn composed of cells (including bacteria!) But a brain and a body have different properties than cells, and a mind has different properties than a brain or a body.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 12, 2013
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EL: "I haven’t yet seen a definition of “nothing” that doesn’t cover a quantum vacuum. But I’m prepared to be persuaded that there is one." I've heard a quantum vacuum defined as a sea of energy. It can be described by physical laws. If this is the case, then where did the quantum vacuum come from? You've simply pushed back the issue of creation. If quantum physical laws operate within a domain that's described by quantum physics, you can't legitimately use quantum physics to explain the origin of that domain itself. You stated that you believe that things can and do pop into existence from a state of nonbeing. Where is the verifiable evidence for this? If something has a beginning, there must be something that caused it to have a beginning. In real life, we never see things coming into existence from nothing, subatomic particles included. The particles were always there, but we didn't have the equipment to detect them. Or our understanding of physics didn't allow us to consider that they might have existed. I don't worry that while I'm away at work, a dog is going to pop into my living room, uncaused, out of a state of nonbeing, and begin chasing my cat. These things simply do not ever happen.Barb
July 12, 2013
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EL: " to consider a mind independent of a physical organism." But you said that he scientific models are abstractions not made by energy and/or matter, then models are independents of physical organisms why not mind? One question an "emergent propertie" is made of energy and/or matter?Chesterton
July 12, 2013
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(response reposted from the other thread) Barry, thanks for your responses:
No, you are not wrong. Science is the study of the natural world. It presupposes the existence and intelligibility of the natural world. It cannot account for the existence and intelligibility of the natural world.
Good, I’m glad we agree on that! I take it then that you would not agree with those who complain that scientists should consider supernatural as well as natural hypotheses? I would certainly say, and I take it you agree, that such hypotheses are beyond the methodology of science. There is no particular reason to believe this other than that it suits your metaphysical predisposition to reject ID. It is no different from saying “life is a brute fact that I can’t explain.” I don’t “believe” it, and have no such “metaphysical disposition”. I’m not sure if you are aware, Barry, but I was a theist for 50 odd years, and a devout one. I even wrote a book about God for children, which sold quite well. I was always (still am) a “seeker”, and would like nothing better but to find that my former faith was reconcilable with my current understanding of the world. I still think of myself as a basically “religious” person, possibly in a Buddhist sense, although I am not a Buddhist. My hunch about life is based on two things: that on the whole, things we observe are likely to be a random sample from the totality of things, and so if we observe something once (life) it probably means it is fairly frequent (the counter argument here is of course the argument that if we weren’t here we would be unable to observe life, so it isn’t a random sample! But that is the “anthropic principle” which is normally rejected by IDists!). The other thing is that I am really quite impressed with some of the OoL research that is going on, and I think it looks promising. I will revise my view if progress ceases, but my guess (not belief is that within a few decades, possiby within my lifetime, we will have observed Darwinian-capable self-replicating systems emerging from prebiotic conditions comparable to those thought to have pertained on early earth. But, to repeat, this is a hunch only.
The multiverse is not a scientific hypothesis. It is a metaphysical assertion. The hypothesis that any universe exists (much less multiple universes) other than the one in which we live is not testable (how could it be?) and thus not falsifiable even in principle.
Most things in science (in a sense all) are tested indirectly. If mathematical models that include a multiverse make predictions about ours that are supported by data, then that is empirical support for that multiverse model. But without getting too abstruse, it is a direct inference from Big Bang models that the observable universe (of which we are necessarily at the dead centre) is only a tiny fraction of the total universe. So we cannot extrapolate from the conditions that pertain in our section to the conditions that pertain in the rest. If there is only a narrow band of fundamental constants that are life-friendly, then, clearly, any part of the total universe that contains observers must be parts in which those constants fall within that narrow band. But it would be extrapolating beyond the range of our data to assume that those constants pertained beyond the limits of observability. Estimate for the size the total universe are that it is about 10^23 times the size of the observable universe. To assume it all has life-friendly constants would be like assuming that the rest of the world has the same characteristics as the part you can see from your house. Then there are theories about bubble universes and such like. Again, these are theories that make predictions, and so are scientific.
I am glad we agree about both of these assertions: (1) the materialist has no answer to why the universe exists. (2) God may be an answer, but He is a mystery. My point is not that God is an “understandable” answer to why the universe exists. My point is that God is a rational answer to why the universe exists. It is NOT rational to believe the universe is all there is, because that leads to the irrational conclusion that the universe can account for its own existence.
Yes, it’s good to agree on something! I don’t think the materialist “dunno” is less rational than the theist’s “mystery”, though, because “the materialist” (well, in this case, me) is not saying that the universe accounts for its own existence, but that the potential for universes is inherent in the impossibility of nothing. But I’m not saying that it is a better answer, just that it is not a worse one. Or, let me put it differently: the placeholder you call “God” or “a mystery”, is, by me, just called “a mystery”. The name matters less than what we can say about what it not. I do not think it is mind, because I reluctantly concluded that it is incoherent (possibly even irrational) to consider a mind independent of a physical organism. However, far from that being a “predisposition”, when it dawned on me, it was the darkest night of my life. Fortunately, when the pieces of my metaphysics reformed, I found I still had as good a God as I’d ever had, just not one that had to bear the load of creating a universe!
Why limit the universe to the reality we know since the Big Bang? That leaves the Big Bang unaccounted for, and it is part of the reality we know (at least that is science’s current, provisional, best understanding of the reality we know).
I don’t. But I was referring to everything since Big Bang, including the vast non-observable part. But yes, I think that the universe(s) probably emerge(s) from some greater reality. But I’m no cosmologist. It doesn’t seem to me to be an important metaphysical question. As I’ve said, I don’t think whether or not the reason anything exist is God or not depends on how many universes there are. After all, in my young day, Steady State was still on the cards, and it didn’t dent my theism in the slightest. Even as a young (and devout!) child, I could figure out that if God is eternal, (s)he can obviously create an eternal universe.
Absolutely false. Pure nonbeing is the most stable state imaginable.
Well, it may be false. But some evidence suggests it is true.
Things do not pop into existence from a state of pure nonbeing. Here again, the standard equivocation of Hawking and his ilk. The quantum vacuum is not nothing.
(These ilks tickle me! It may well be “equivocation” but nothing is extraordinarily difficult to define. So hard not to equivocate. I haven’t yet seen a definition of “nothing” that doesn’t cover a quantum vacuum. But I’m prepared to be persuaded that there is one. tbh, I think language simply fails us when we get down to quantum stuff, and up to space-time. So many things we assume are solid existing things turn out to be pure, if well-defined, probability. If a particle can be merely a probable particle, what is that particle when its probability is low? Is it nothing? And what is space before it expands?
It is true that “things” are different at the quantum level than at the classical level, but they are still “things.” That you can only describe them as such is all we need to know. Again, the quantum vacuum is not nothing in the sense of pure nonbeing.
In what sense are they still “things”? In what sense is anything a “thing”? We parse the world into things, which enables us to make sense of it – we try to “carve nature at its joints”. But there are no real “joints” in nature once we look closely enough at it. What we find instead, I suggest, are systems of processes. A “solid thing” is a good model for a system of processes that, when it meets a similar system of processes at speed makes a loud bang. And that parsing system works well right down to particles. But that doesn’t mean that particle-things are like anvil-things. It means that both are systems that can be usefully considered “things”, but can also, depending on what we are interested in, be considered systems of forces and processes. And even, it seems to turns out, of probabilities.
How immensely sad. I see at least five reasons: (1) the hole in his right hand; (2) the hole in his left hand; (3) the hole in his right foot; (4) the hole in his left foot; and (5) the hole in his side.
Yes, it was sad, and I was very sad for quite a time. And I still have my crucifixes, and I still find the idea of the incarnation, and of the Trinity, immensely powerful. I just can’t tie it to the cause of the existence. And I’m not sad now. In many ways, I have, as I said, all the things I ever valued in my faith without actually requiring “faith”! Perhaps what I have now is better described as “trust”.
Ah yes, the emergent property materialist poofery confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation.
Of course I disagree with your characterisation. I think emergent properties are an extremely valuable way of understanding the world. After all, I am a systems neuroscientist, and I would make no headway unless I understood that systems have properties not possessed by their parts (and vice versa). In that sense I reject the description “reductionist”. I am the opposite – a “whole-ist”. In any case it seems to me that we are all emergentists without knowing it. We see waves crashing on the beach, and say “wow, that was an amazing wave!” But what was it? It was exactly the same water as you’ve been watching for the last half hour, possibly even lapping gently round your ankles. All “things” are emergent systems with properties not possessed by their parts. Yet their parts can be considered “things” too, and in their turn consist parts with still different properties. And so ad infinitum.
Summary: EL, I am glad that we agree on so much today.
Me too, Barry! Thanks. Elizabeth B Liddle
July 12, 2013
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“That does not to me rule out the possibility that non-existence is an unstable state and that things do 'pop into existence' from time to time.” If there was something to nothing it would be very hard to swallow.lpadron
July 12, 2013
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