Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

WS Wants to Know Why He is Cynical and Uncharitable:  A Tutorial

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Update: It occurred to me that people might think this post is intended merely to pick on WS. Not so. The purpose of the post is to demonstrate the principle of charity in philosophy, science and in other areas where ideas compete. WS is a stand-in for every materialist objector to ID who assumes before the argument begins that ID proponents are all liars and therefore refuse to address their arguments at face value.

william spearshake:

Given that ID didn’t surface until Creationism was ruled a religion, and since it encompasses everything from 6000 year earth creationists, to evolutionary theists, and since most authors and most supportive commenters are theists (ie, Christian) I stand my my previous claim.  [i.e., that ID is religiously based]

Barry responds:

The essence of your belief is a cynical and uncharitable refusal to take people at their word. OK, you are entitled to be cynical and uncharitable. No law against that.

WS asks:

So, Barry, please explain to me again how my view that ID is a religious doctrine is “cynical and uncharitable”?

OK WS. I will. First let’s define the terms. Here is Wikipedia’s discussion of the “Principle of Charity”:

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker’s statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.  In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others’ statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available.

In a nutshell, the principle of charity requires that when you are considering another person’s argument you try your best to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value.  It is uncharitable to assume he is lying or trying to mislead from his true objective or has ulterior motives.

My dictionary defines “cynical” as “distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.”

How do these terms apply to you?  ID proponents argue there are indicia of design that can sometimes be objectively detected.  These indicia include (1) high levels of specified complexity, (2) the existence of a semiotic code (a special case of (1)); and (3) the existence of irreducibly complex structures that could not possible have been assembled by blind natural forces in a step by step process with no ultimate goal in mind.

Here is where the rubber hits the road.  Many ID proponents believe that God is the best candidate for the designer (Indeed, he may be the only candidate when we are talking about design a the cosmological level, but I am limiting this discussion to biological ID).  Nevertheless, those ID proponents assert a distinction between what they believe on the basis of faith (God did it) and what they can demonstrate objectively (some intelligent designer, not necessarily God, did it).  In other words, they say that the design inference warranted by the indicia of design points only to a designer, not to a particular designer.

Now the essence of your claim is that ID proponents are inveterate liars.  You refuse to take at face value their claim that they are searching for objective indicia of design. You refuse to countenance their claim that the inference to design can be separated from personal beliefs about who the designer is.  You claim ID proponents are dishonestly trying to push their God beliefs with the ulterior motive of advancing a religious agenda in the guise of pursuing objective science.

So let’s count up the indicia of uncharitable:
Refuse to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value:  Check.
Assume he is lying:  Check
Assume he is trying to mislead from his true objective:  Check
Assume he has ulterior motives:  Check

What about cynical?
Distrusting or disparaging the motives of others:  Check

There you have it WS.  If the shoe fits . . .

Comments
RodW- Scripture is silent on the age of the Earth. That means YEC is based on one interpretation of scripture. Also anything based on scripture is religiously based.Joe
September 26, 2014
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It seems to me that all of you, on both sides of the argument, are taking for granted the notion that young earth creationism is religiously based. If we're going to take them at their word, as Barry says we should do, we'd have to say its not religiously based. YECs are upfront about believing scripture is the literal word of God but they also say that science can't contradict scripture when properly interpreted. So the evidence for a young earth is scientific. Do any of you disagree with this?RodW
September 26, 2014
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Thanks for the lies and total crap, AVS. It is always entertaining with you around. Unfortunately for you there isn't any research that I vehemently deny. Obviously you have serious issues.Joe
September 26, 2014
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WS #31, So, according to you, ID is a religious doctrine BECAUSE Barry doesn't accept blasphemy on his site? IOW Barry's forum rules equals ID theory? Is that your argument?Box
September 26, 2014
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Thanks for the comic relief Joe. It's been fun as always guys. I hope the fact that a portion of your tax money is going into the research you so vehemently deny makes your blood boil. Have a nice day! =)AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS:
I don’t have to put any effort ...
And it shows in your ignorance-laden postsJoe
September 26, 2014
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I don't have to put any effort into making my opponent look like a fool, JDD, they do it for me usually.AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS:
You’re just digging a deeper and deeper grave.
It's YOUR grave, AVS.Joe
September 26, 2014
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AVS:
Yes, kairos, every argument I make is a strawman.
No, some are blatant lies.Joe
September 26, 2014
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And it's exactly what I would expect from someone with your scientific background. There are variations of the bacterial flagellum just like there are variations of humans, congratulations. That's the reasoning I would expect from a middle schooler. Now if we take a scientific approach, we can see that both of these things have variations because of genetic differences. There are underlying causes to these variations and we can analyze them in order to patch together ancestral history. Just like your DNA sequence can suggest who your relatives are, genetic analysis among other studies, can suggest the ancestral components of the bacterial flagella. You should really quit while you're ahead. Nevermind, too late. You're just digging a deeper and deeper grave.AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS:
Now, the question is, is ATP synthase the only possible mechanism of generating ATP?
No, but ATP synthase exists and as such requires an explanation.
Let’s ignore the scientific evidence for the evolution of the bacterial flagellum.
We cannot ignore that which doesn't exist. And seeing that no one can model unguided evolution producing a flagellum that would mean there isn't any scientific evidence for it. You are lying, again.
The problem with the deletion experiments is that they do nothing to rule out evolution.
As I said the deletion experiments are just steps in the process. Also yours doesn't have anything but sheer dumb luck to explain what we observe. So that would be a problem for science.Joe
September 26, 2014
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There is probably more that one mechanism but again so what? if there are more than one it does not serve your case in any way.....Andre
September 26, 2014
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Andre - AVS is being facetious with technicalities: he knew you meant "ATP synthase" rather than ATP and is trying to win an argument with the tactic of "making your opponent look like a fool" approach. Let us be clear about something, and go back to basics. I am tired of these double standard arguments from materialists that they fail to even acknowledge. This is for the benefit of the reader who has an open mind to the subject - I am not too bothered about what people like AVS, Evolve, WS etc think about my comments. Let us give the materialists their homology. Let them have the fact that simpler organisms have simpler structures. Let them have the observation that those organisms which appear further away from human likeness or another likeness, appear to have greater differences in the genetic code for the same gene than those that appear closer (of course, putting to one side that when this was done phenotypically it was shown by molecular evidence to be wrong in many cases, therefore is now done on molecular homology). You can have all that. You can even have your "ideas" about how say a ribosome evolved, by going to the simplest organisms that have ribosomal structures, and comparing their similarity on the molecular level to more complex organisms, like humans. You can take that assumption and believe that because a simpler organism has a simpler version and the more complex organism appears to have built on that simpler version, that it must be related and have a common ancestor. Have it, I say. Yet you are still left with a fundamental problem: that problem is getting information in a specified complex form to allow self-replication and evolution to even commence and occur. This is not a "god of the gaps" argument, this is a "you have absolutely no proof nor experimental evidence to support abiogenesis" argument. There is no working hypothesis that qualifies as a working hypothesis (i.e. has not yet been falsified through experimentation). Secondly, you cannot pull the "well we don't know the original conditions" card as that is, by your own criticisms of the designer inference, unscientific then. So you can argue till you are blue in the face that the evidence points to common descent but what you cannot do is claim that the origin of biological information has support from naturalistic processes. And in the materialists worldview, abiogenesis is absolutely necessary for the rest to fall into place too. Therefore, the competing criticisms of a designer as the origin of biological information (stop at that point - no need to go down the YEC vs OEC vs TE route just yet) are unfounded, as they are therefore in complete parallel to assumptions of abiogenesis. And we are not talking about something like a snowflake, which is inherent to the properties of physical things around us and its medium (water) that we can describe and explain through natural laws we observe in place, we are talking about ordering of chemical constituents into ordering that we do not see occurring when the constituent components are mixed together in a whole host of different conditions. Further to this, we go back further than abiogenesis and we find as all of us well know on here, that the formation of our universe is true (i.e. had a beginning, came into being rather than always existing) and that requires a force or causal agent for its beginning. Additionally the natural laws we observe are so specific and necessary for the stable universe we observe around us that the chances of randomness accounting for these are inexplicably small. This is therefore why I contest the notion that you cannot hypothesise and test for a designer God. The hypothesis of the Judeo-Christian persuasion has always been a designer God who transcends this universe, created the universe in an instant, and upholds order within the universe. In our modern age we forget that those are what the Judeo-Christian belief system predicted. Thus as we observe this, we can certainly say there are aspects of the designer that we have been able to hypothesise and test. However the problem is worsened for the materialist for despite their insistence that belief in a transcendent designer is not scientific and therefore should be rejected, we have the much famed multiverse theory. There is nothing in the multiverse theory that makes it “more scientific” than a transcendent God as a “theory” and it is essentially subject to the exact same criticisms that materialists lay on the designer God (being outside of this universe and untestable). Materialists love to shroud this with statements such as: “we cannot detect it now but someday we will potentially be able to, therefore it is science” and “the existence of gravitational waves provides evidence for the multiverse” - both of which are ludicrous arguments that do not validate the multiverse hypothesis as any less of an argument from faith than the God hypothesis. Finally, since the Design hypothesis most accurately falls into the “inference to the best explanation” category (a specific and fine-tuned universe gives the best inference that it was created that way on purpose), we have more reason to accept the existence of a designer than we would of a multiverse. So let us not be fooled by this fancy talk by many materialists about how we can theoretically show this that or another. It boils down to these very simple arguments. To the reader again, I fully know that the materialists on here will protest this conclusion, claim that the multiverse and abiogenesis are science given some (and other) reasons I give above, but if you are willing to find truth, use your discernment and ask yourself if there really is a difference between those events and a transcendent designer and anyone honest with themselves will see quite clearly the answer it “no”.Dr JDD
September 26, 2014
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AVS, I pause and note that there you go again with a strawman caricature, here, that I am ignoring claimed scientific evidence for origin of IC systems. I gave outline issues, and pointed out I don't have time for elaborations, the on the ground world is coming in my front door, and pointed you to pivotal issues C1 - 5 and the issue of incremental development, where btw speculated random drift to create complex functionally specific structures WITHOUT selection filtering is a classic on the all at one problem so puts you into the needle in haystack problem on steroids, and I gave onward readings. Instead of addressing them (incl the UD post by me on IC) you projected a falsehood, a caricature to knock over. Do better than that please. If you have a problem with habitual strawmannising (a typical Darwinist debate tactic, on long observation . . . ), that is your problem not mine so kindly refrain from shooting at the messenger. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2014
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AVS Not to spoil your weekend I know this is devastating for you but a flagella is a flagella just like homo sapiens is homo sapiens, we have tall ones, small ones overweight ones, muscular ones feminine ones but they are all homo sapiens! There I used a biological comparison is that ok with you?Andre
September 26, 2014
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GOOD JOB ANDRE, you have finally said something that makes sense. Sticker for you. Now, the question is, is ATP synthase the only possible mechanism of generating ATP?AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS All cells use ATP http://chatt.hdsb.ca/~duncand/fov1-000d8cf8/fov1-000e9546/FOV1-000E954C/ATP%20text.pdfAndre
September 26, 2014
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YES the molecule-car comparison. My favorite. Are you going to start talking about tornadoes and junkyards next? You must have been awful at puzzles as a kid because you couldn't fit the pieces together if your life depended on it.AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS See you later when you've come back with real evidence! I look forward to it! Blow me away with what you have!Andre
September 26, 2014
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AVS<blockquoteor carried out two functions and has since lost the other for example. Evidence for the other so called function? Or does this fall under the new vestigial term of 2014?Andre
September 26, 2014
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It would appear, Andre, that you are completely incapable of thinking. Especially about biological matters. There are numerous forms of energy, ways to store it, and ways to convert it. The "you have to show every incremental step of evolution of this here organism or molecular machine" argument is getting ridiculous. Unless you have something good to say, sayonara.AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS So there are variations in flagellum so what? Who is arguing about that? It is observed it has been tested and it has been verified! Here is what you need to realize it's still Flagella, just like a ford, Nissan, and Toyota is still a car!Andre
September 26, 2014
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Yes, kairos, every argument I make is a strawman. Let's ignore the scientific evidence for the evolution of the bacterial flagellum. Great. And also the consensus is that the bacterial flagellum evolved from the T3SS, not the other way around. Yes it was proposed at one point but the evidence suggests otherwise. The problem with the deletion experiments is that they do nothing to rule out evolution. The deletion of an entire protein is not representative of what is really going on. It is much more likely that instead of the lack of a protein and the function that it carries out in bacterial flagella today, there was a slightly different protein there that carried out the same function, or carried out two functions and has since lost the other for example.AVS
September 26, 2014
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AVS
"As for the evolution of this structure, we can look at the variations in different species, which act as snapshots of he evolution of this complex (the same can be done for the bacterial flagellum). The difficult part is understanding how these variations came about, and in the process determine the evolution of the structure."
We have many variations of tennis rackets, engines, legs, hearts, lungs but they are still just that...... You can do better AVS give me something to really go think about!Andre
September 26, 2014
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AVS:
Evolve means changes in a population which effect subsequent generations.
Even YECs accept evolution as defined as broadly as that. That- such a broad definition- makes any discussion wrt ID, Creation and evolutionism, virtually impossible.Joe
September 26, 2014
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AVS:
As for the evolution of this structure, we can look at the variations in different species, which act as snapshots of he evolution of this complex (the same can be done for the bacterial flagellum).
What a crock- that is the same crock used to "explain" the alleged evolution of the vision system. And until you can model unguided processes producing ATP synthase, flagella or any other protein complex, all you are doing is whining.Joe
September 26, 2014
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AVS If you must I was talking about the molecular machine, I assumed you'd know that, my apology for not stating it clearly! But if you think I'm conceding think again because you have to show how such a system "evolved" in any incremental stages... no energy to the cell no cell period!Andre
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS:
Actually, we now know that neutral and even deleterious mutations can become fixed in a population.
Actually we don't know but people have speculated.Joe
September 26, 2014
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AVS- ID is NOT anti-evolution as ID is OK with evolving by design. However no one even knows how to model unguided evolution as it comes down to nothing but sheer dumb luck. That is not science.Joe
September 26, 2014
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Neutral theory....... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Stepwise did not work, welcome eek punk! when that did not work we got evo devo, and when that went bust we got Neutral theory... when that goes bunk we will be back at stepwise cause no matter how absurd we just can't allow that design foot in the door!Andre
September 26, 2014
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