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WS Wants to Know Why He is Cynical and Uncharitable:  A Tutorial

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Update: It occurred to me that people might think this post is intended merely to pick on WS. Not so. The purpose of the post is to demonstrate the principle of charity in philosophy, science and in other areas where ideas compete. WS is a stand-in for every materialist objector to ID who assumes before the argument begins that ID proponents are all liars and therefore refuse to address their arguments at face value.

william spearshake:

Given that ID didn’t surface until Creationism was ruled a religion, and since it encompasses everything from 6000 year earth creationists, to evolutionary theists, and since most authors and most supportive commenters are theists (ie, Christian) I stand my my previous claim.  [i.e., that ID is religiously based]

Barry responds:

The essence of your belief is a cynical and uncharitable refusal to take people at their word. OK, you are entitled to be cynical and uncharitable. No law against that.

WS asks:

So, Barry, please explain to me again how my view that ID is a religious doctrine is “cynical and uncharitable”?

OK WS. I will. First let’s define the terms. Here is Wikipedia’s discussion of the “Principle of Charity”:

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker’s statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.  In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others’ statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available.

In a nutshell, the principle of charity requires that when you are considering another person’s argument you try your best to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value.  It is uncharitable to assume he is lying or trying to mislead from his true objective or has ulterior motives.

My dictionary defines “cynical” as “distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.”

How do these terms apply to you?  ID proponents argue there are indicia of design that can sometimes be objectively detected.  These indicia include (1) high levels of specified complexity, (2) the existence of a semiotic code (a special case of (1)); and (3) the existence of irreducibly complex structures that could not possible have been assembled by blind natural forces in a step by step process with no ultimate goal in mind.

Here is where the rubber hits the road.  Many ID proponents believe that God is the best candidate for the designer (Indeed, he may be the only candidate when we are talking about design a the cosmological level, but I am limiting this discussion to biological ID).  Nevertheless, those ID proponents assert a distinction between what they believe on the basis of faith (God did it) and what they can demonstrate objectively (some intelligent designer, not necessarily God, did it).  In other words, they say that the design inference warranted by the indicia of design points only to a designer, not to a particular designer.

Now the essence of your claim is that ID proponents are inveterate liars.  You refuse to take at face value their claim that they are searching for objective indicia of design. You refuse to countenance their claim that the inference to design can be separated from personal beliefs about who the designer is.  You claim ID proponents are dishonestly trying to push their God beliefs with the ulterior motive of advancing a religious agenda in the guise of pursuing objective science.

So let’s count up the indicia of uncharitable:
Refuse to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value:  Check.
Assume he is lying:  Check
Assume he is trying to mislead from his true objective:  Check
Assume he has ulterior motives:  Check

What about cynical?
Distrusting or disparaging the motives of others:  Check

There you have it WS.  If the shoe fits . . .

Comments
AVS & WS: Do you accept the difference between drawing an inductive conclusion based on a body of observations and inference to best causal explanation and projecting an unwarranted assumption? If so, kindly explain how inferring design as best causal explanation on demonstrated reliable sign -- recall, the fiasco objectors just had over BA's Hamlet quote vs random text -- is not a case of inductive, empirically grounded reasoning. If not, kindly explain why you hold that induction is tantamount to question-begging (at least, whenever it is convenient to project such). KF PS: It is beginning to look a lot like what is really going on is the notion that a designer of the cosmos is not possible and a designer of life on earth is effectively impossible as well. On that premise, no amount of evidence pointing inductively to design will ever be enough. But, at the cost of injecting a priori evolutionary materialism as a question-begging censor on scientific thought regarding origins. In which case Philip Johnson's point in reply to Lewontin looks very much to be in the money:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
PPS: I won't say much about the pretty direct motive mongering insinuations in the previous thread and above, given the direct context that I am the author of the relevant thread. Other, than to note that such are cause on the face of it to hold the likes of WS/A_b beyond the pale of common courtesy and decency. I suspect, they do not understand the magnitude of the offence involved in making such bigoted assumptions and gratuitous accusations, much as the boor who for no good reason refuses to shake a pro-offered hand . . . not aware that such is not just bad manners but a declaration of a state of war. Sadly, we are back to the broughtupcy issue. (And if you feel insulted by that WS, understand the response of someone who having been raised in a tradition of honour starting with what is written into his name has routinely laid career and life on the line over matters of truth and right, only to be cavalierly and falsely and on no good basis accused by direct implication of being a habitual liar. Be deeply ashamed, or if you are not, think twice about the state of conscience.)kairosfocus
September 25, 2014
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WS:
But I think that the fact that you neglected to mention the statement that I made just before this one (that you had just banned a commenter for blasphemy), which is verifiable, removes the uncharitable adjective. Still cynical? You haven’t given me any reason why not to be.
Here are the criteria for “uncharitable”: Refuse to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value Assume he is lying Assume he is trying to mislead from his true objective Assume he has ulterior motives Here is the criterion for “cynical”: Distrusting or disparaging the motives of others None of the criteria turn on “the statement I made before this one.” They turn on whether you refuse to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value, etc. BTW, everyone is watching you dodge, bob, weave, deflect and distract rather than tell us which of these criteria do not apply to you and why.Barry Arrington
September 25, 2014
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The process of documenting a semiotic system does not assume a designer. Having documented such a system, we can then look for potential causes. If we find that all instances of such systems where we can determine the provenance of the system are - without exception - the result of a designing agent, then we have arrived at a inference based on universal experience (i.e.unrefuted evidence), not an assumption. And the more we can develop that physical evidence the stronger the inference becomes, even as it remains falsifiable by a single example to the contrary. Consider yourself refuted. Now, there are people who believe the biosphere was designed. In what specific ways does their belief alter the universal observation that all semiotic systems (like the one in question) result from design? Moreover, if this person is documenting for you the evidence of the semiotic system, is the intellectually effective response to attack them for their beliefs (which do not alter the observations) or attack the observations and demonstrate them incorrect? Which of these two options would you consider political or social, and which would you consider empirical?Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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Barry: "You act as if the context of your statement has a bearing on whether you are uncharitable or cynical." Are you saying that context doesn't matter? I hope that you are not being serious. OK, let's use an example. You included the following statement that I made, but out of context. "So, Barry, please explain to me again how my view that ID is a religious doctrine is “cynical and uncharitable”? On its own, as you presented it, it sounds uncharitable and cynical. I don't disagree. But I think that the fact that you neglected to mention the statement that I made just before this one (that you had just banned a commenter for blasphemy), which is verifiable, removes the uncharitable adjective. Still cynical? You haven't given me any reason why not to be. But, of course, you are well within your rights if you choose to ban me rather than address this.william spearshake
September 25, 2014
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I'm not making a case or refuting a case. I am, however, still waiting for you to correct me on my explanation of "the assumption of a designer in the observation of semiosis or irreducible complexity"AVS
September 25, 2014
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UB, the only case for IC is that “we don’t know how it came about, therefore it irreducibly complex.”
This does not make your case. Nor does it even begin to refute mine.Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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AWS:
Barry, I looked at your checks at the end of your OP. With respect to the ones for “charitable” I can honestly say that you have more checks in these categories than I do.
If you are being honest, then tell us which ones and why?Barry Arrington
September 25, 2014
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william spearshake, You act as if the context of your statement has a bearing on whether you are uncharitable or cynical. It does not. As expected, you are lying, obfuscating, deflecting and evading. You have no integrity whatsoever, and that is why I banned you the first time. Now that I know you are highly credentialed I am conflicted about banning you again. Yes, you come in as a guest on these pages and act the complete ass. On the other hand, maybe it is actually helpful to allow the world to watch the other side's best and brightest act like a sophomoric dullard. Right now I'm leaning toward the latter view, but don't test my limits.Barry Arrington
September 25, 2014
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WS, they are most likely talking about experimental science specifically, although they may not even realize it, which was born in Europe.AVS
September 25, 2014
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bogart:
Given that ID didn’t surface until Creationism was ruled a religion
First off, this is not true. Detectives, archaeologists and other investigators have used ID to solve crimes for millenia. Second, if creationism is religion, anti-creationism is just as much a religion. Why? Because opposites are of the same nature. The worst thing about atheism is how it managed to fool the public into believing that it is some sort of non-religious and objective platform and thus force us to give them free tax money. Yet, as I've said elsewhere, the dirt worshippers are the most superstitious voodooists of them all. The state religion is voodoo BS and that is unconstitutional. The money spigot should be immediately turned off. Atheists and materialists should raise their own money for their religion, just like everybody else. This is thievery plain and simple.Mapou
September 25, 2014
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Anthropic: "That’s why science was invented in Christian Europe and nowhere else." That may come as a surprise to the Greeks, the Arabs (who kept inquiry alive while the Europeans were squabbling over Popes) and the Chinese. They may not have followed the modern scientific process, but it worked pretty well for them.william spearshake
September 25, 2014
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UB, the only case for IC is that "we don't know how it came about, therefore it irreducibly complex."AVS
September 25, 2014
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IC itself is the documenting of a process that you think cannot be reduced any further, that it had to have been designed exactly how it is now, and is nonfunctional if missing any pieces. I'm really not sure what the whole semiosis thing is about except for the fact that you love to bring up the origin of translation, which ties into the symbol(nucleotide sequence)/meaning(amino acid sequence). I'm assuming it has to do with this, if this isn't just another IC argument itself. Which, if I'm connecting the dots correctly, according to you guys requires a designer to create the correlation between codon and amino acid. The existence of both, in the end, according to you guys require a designer and I disagree.AVS
September 25, 2014
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Barry, I looked at your checks at the end of your OP. With respect to the ones for "charitable" I can honestly say that you have more checks in these categories than I do. But I plead guilty to part of the cynical definition: "Distrusting or disparaging the motives of others" The fact that you have presented my comments here, and in other posts, out of context, or strategically omitting some of the text, to support your views, I can only be honest and say that I distrust your motives. Or do you deny that you banned someone for blasphemy, which you conveniently neglected to mention was the impetus for my last comment in this OP?william spearshake
September 25, 2014
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WS 15 "It is an impermissible inference if you declare that the designer (god) is beyond our understanding. The concept that god is beyond our understanding is dogma, not reason. If god is the designer (or Santa, or the tooth fairy, or the Lucky Charms Leprechaun), what is the rational reason why it must remain beyond our understanding?" Actually, Christianity is unique in thinking that a rational, law-giving God created a rational, law-following universe that rational beings created in God's image can understand. That's why science was invented in Christian Europe and nowhere else. As an early scientist put it, his work was "Thinking the thoughts of God after Him." By way of contrast, people who believe in the multiverse have absolutely no basis for expecting this universe is fundamentally rational. Or that they even really exist as anything other than disembodied Boltzmann's Brains.anthropic
September 25, 2014
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AVS, It is not that you disagree with IC, it's that you cannot make your case, and I can.Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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I would say that both semiosis/irreducible complexity require a designer to define meaning/create a structure-function relationship. - - - - - - - - - - - - I looked up the wiki definition of semiosis which is “is any form of activity, conduct, or process that involves signs, including the production of meaning.” And I’ve talked about IC enough with you guys in the past I would say.
So please explain how the act of documenting a process that involves semiosis and/or irreducible complexity amounts to an assumption of a designer.Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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UB knows that I disagree with the existence of IC.AVS
September 25, 2014
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AVS 11, UB 10 "I would say that both semiosis/irreducible complexity require a designer to define meaning/create a structure-function relationship." I'm scratching my head here. AVS, if I understand you correctly, you are saying exactly the same thing ID proponents say. They think that semiosis and irreducible complexity are real and hence require a designer. UB, as an ID proponent yourself, what did AVS say that you disagree with?anthropic
September 25, 2014
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Anthropic: "So let me get this straight, WS. Design is an impermissible inference because the designer might be a god or God? :/" No. It is an impermissible inference if you declare that the designer (god) is beyond our understanding. The concept that god is beyond our understanding is dogma, not reason. If god is the designer (or Santa, or the tooth fairy, or the Lucky Charms Leprechaun), what is the rational reason why it must remain beyond our understanding? At one time, the production of fire was beyond our understanding, as was metallurgy, nuclear physics, the silicon chip and the opposite sex. OK, the opposite sex may forevever remain outside our understanding, but why should this be true of the designer (god) I certainly hope that I haven't been blasphemous to the point of being banned from this non religious web site.william spearshake
September 25, 2014
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I looked up the wiki definition of semiosis which is "is any form of activity, conduct, or process that involves signs, including the production of meaning." And I've talked about IC enough with you guys in the past I would say.AVS
September 25, 2014
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WS I notice you asked for an explanation for why you are cynical and uncharitable and when I provide it you completely ignore it. Telling. Review the checks at the end of the OP. Which would you uncheck? If the answer is none then just accept that you are cynical and uncharitable. If you would uncheck one the ball is in your court. Tell us why it was not fair to check it.Barry Arrington
September 25, 2014
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Did this "basic understanding" come to you in an unexpected epiphany of some sort, or is there a reason, a basis, for you understand it in this way? Anything?Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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A very basic understanding of exactly what semiosis and irreducible complexity is. Feel free to prove me wrong. Keep things brief though, I've always been under the impression that someone who really knows what they are talking about can keep their explanations concise.AVS
September 25, 2014
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I would say that both semiosis/irreducible complexity require a designer to define meaning/create a structure-function relationship.
What do you base this comment on?Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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WS 4 "AVS, exactly. Until they can propose the nature of a designer who isn’t a god, what else can I think?" So let me get this straight, WS. Design is an impermissible inference because the designer might be a god or God? :/ As a matter of pure logic, that's absurd. And in fact some ID proponents aren't theists. For them, it may be that the universe itself tends towards order and complexity because that is the nature of the universe.anthropic
September 25, 2014
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I would say that both semiosis/irreducible complexity require a designer to define meaning/create a structure-function relationship.AVS
September 25, 2014
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AVS, There is little doubt that Bogart thinks there is an assumption of a designer in ID methodologies, that is why I asked him to demonstrate them. I have now asked the same question 4 times. I think Bogart perhaps understands that he cannot make that case without making my case in its place, and thus, he refrains from trying. You, on the other hand, are often less clever. Showing up to say “there’s an assumption of a designer” is rather comical in context. But now that you’re all caught up, you are welcome to make the case that there is an assumption of a designer in the observation of semiosis and/or irreducible complexity. Be specific with regard to the details.Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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Bogart, Earlier this year you stated:
Scientists clearly admit that they don’t know how life originated, and will never know (unless they invent time travel). But they will narrow it down to a small number if good contenders. And intelligent design won’t be amongst them because that still leaves the question of how the intelligent designer originated. By definition, an intelligent designer must be alive. You can call it a spirit, a god, the Holy Ghost, whatever. It thinks, it plans, it is alive.
To which I replied:
Design theory cannot identify the designer because a means to do so is not in the material evidence. Mankind’s inability to name the intelligence does not suddenly increase the capacity of inanimate to organize itself into a semiotic translation apparatus and fill a medium with functional form when translated. Yet, the living cell cannot be organized otherwise. Design theory posits the only verifiable source for a semiotic system based on a finite set iterative representations arranged in a linear dimensional code. It can be falsified by a single example of such a system rising without intelligent guidance. On the other hand, a theory that is ultimately defended by “We don’t know how it happened yet, but we know it wasn’t guided and we’ll prove it someday” is a theory that can never be falsified, and therefore must be taken on faith alone.
Since you now say that ID assumes a designer and this makes it a religious doctrine, than my question to you persist: Can you explain the religious doctrine assumption of a designer in the observation of semiosis or irreducible complexity? Please point out the details.Upright BiPed
September 25, 2014
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Aliens. Duh.AVS
September 25, 2014
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