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You can’t have them, atheists!

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The atheist blog Ungodly News has just released a Periodic Table of Atheists and Antitheists. While I admire its artistry, I deplore its lack of accuracy. At least three of the people listed as atheists or anti-theists were nothing of the sort: Albert Einstein, Mark Twain and (in his final days) Jean-Paul Sartre. I realize that the last name will shock many readers. I’ll say more about Sartre anon.

I’m a great admirer of Einstein (who isn’t?) and a fan of Mark Twain, whose house I visited in December 1994. And I thoroughly enjoyed reading Sartre’s Les Mains Sales (Dirty Hands) in high school. When he wrote that play in 1948, Sartre was a militant atheist, but as we’ll see, Sartre’s views changed in his final years. These three authors I treasure, so I say to the atheists: you can’t have them!

There are three more people on Ungodly News’ periodic table who, in the interests of historical accuracy, I have to say don’t belong there either: Charles Darwin, Thomas Henry Huxley and Bill Gates. All three are (or were) agnostics, not atheists, and as I’ll argue below, while these thinkers all reject the claims of revealed religion, none of them deserves to be called an anti-theist. It is an undeniable historical fact, however, that the ideas disseminated by Darwin and Huxley have caused many people to lose their faith in God.

Atheists love to claim Albert Einstein as one of their own, but he was nothing of the sort.

[This post will remain at the top of the page until 6:00 am EST tomorrow, June 28. For reader convenience, other coverage continues below. – UD News]

It is well-known that Albert Einstein rejected belief in an afterlife, and did not believe in a personal God who answered prayers. Nevertheless, he did believe in a Mind manifesting itself in Nature. That was his God. In an interview published in 1930 in G. S. Viereck’s book Glimpses of the Great, Einstein remarked:

I’m absolutely not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things. (Frankenberry, Nancy K. 2009. The Faith of Scientists: In Their Own Words. Princeton University Press. p. 153.)

In 1929, Albert Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein: “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.” (Isaacson, Walter, Einstein: His Life and Universe, pp. 388-389, Simon and Schuster, 2008.)

According to Hubertus, Prince of Lowenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, Einstein said, “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.” (Quoted by Ronald W. Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, New York: World Publishing Company, 1971, p. 425.)

For an overview of Einstein’s religious views, I’d recommend this article in Wikipedia.

Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) certainly wasn’t an atheist either. As he wrote:

To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master; to trust the true God is to trust a Being who has uttered no promises, but whose beneficent, exact, and changeless ordering of the machinery of His colossal universe is proof that He is at least steadfast to His purposes; whose unwritten laws, so far as the affect man, being equal and impartial, show that he is just and fair; these things, taken together, suggest that if he shall ordain us to live hereafter, he will be steadfast, just and fair toward us. We shall not need to require anything more.

— Mark Twain, from Albert Bigelow Paine, Mark Twain, a Biography (1912), quoted from Barbara Schmidt, ed, “Mark Twain Quotations, Newspaper Collections, & Related Resources”.

Was Twain anti-religious? Certainly. But anti-theist? No. Twain loved to make fun of God, but he also believed God was big enough not to be troubled by such mockery:

Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it. (Ibid.)

Twain’s views on the afterlife, like his views on Providence, varied throughout his lifetime, but his daughter Clara said of him: “Sometimes he believed death ended everything, but most of the time he felt sure of a life beyond.” (Phipps, William E., Mark Twain’s Religion, p. 304, 2003 Mercer Univ. Press.)

What about Jean-Paul Sartre? According to his personal secretary Benny Levy (a.k.a. Pierre Victor), an ex-Maoist who became an Orthodox Jew in the late 1970s, Sartre had a drastic change of mind about the existence of God and started gravitating toward Messianic Judaism, in the years before his death. This is Sartre’s before-death profession, according to Pierre Victor: “I do not feel that I am the product of chance, a speck of dust in the universe, but someone who was expected, prepared, prefigured. In short, a being whom only a Creator could put here; and this idea of a creating hand refers to God.”

What was Simone de Beauvoir’s reaction, you may be wondering?

“His mistress, Simone de Beauvoir, behaved like a bereaved widow during the funeral. Then she published La ceremonie des adieux in which she turned vicious, attacking Sartre. He resisted Victor’s seduction, she recounts, then he yielded. ‘How should one explain this senile act of a turncoat?’, she asks stupidly. And she adds: ‘All my friends, all the Sartreans, and the editorial team of Les Temps Modernes supported me in my consternation.’

Mme. de Beauvoir’s consternation v. Sartre’s conversion. The balance is infinitely heavier on the side of the blind, yet seeing, old man.”

(National Review, NY, 11 June 1982, p. 677, article by Thomas Molnar, Professor of French and World Literature at Brooklyn College; see also McDowell, Josh and Don Stewart, eds. 1990. Concise Guide to Today’s Religions. Amersham-on-the-Hill, Bucks, England: Scripture Press, p. 477.)

The transformation in Sartre’s political and religious views near the end of his life is revealed in a book of conversations between Sartre and his assistant Benny Levy, conducted shortly before his death, Hope Now: The 1980 Interviews (University of Chicago Press, 1996). The publisher of the book described the changes as follows:

“In March of 1980, just a month before Sartre’s death, Le Nouvel Observateur published a series of interviews, the last ever given, between the blind and debilitated philosopher and his young assistant, Benny Levy.

They seemed to portray a Sartre who had abandoned his leftist convictions and rejected his most intimate friends, including Simone de Beauvoir. This man had cast aside his own fundamental beliefs in the primacy of individual consciousness, the inevitability of violence, and Marxism, embracing instead a messianic Judaism. (…)

Shortly before his death, Sartre confirmed the authenticity of the interviews and their puzzling content. Over the past fifteen years, it has become the task of Sartre scholars to unravel and understand them. Presented in this fresh, meticulous translation, the interviews are framed by two provocative essays by Benny Levy himself, accompanied by a comprehensive introduction from noted Sartre authority Ronald Aronson.

This absorbing volume at last contextualizes and elucidates the final thoughts of a brilliant and influential mind.”

(See Hope Now: The 1980 Interviews, Jean-Paul Sartre and Benny Levy (ed.); translated by Adrian Van den Hoven, with an introduction by Ronald Aronson, University of Chicago Press, 1996).

Curious readers can find out more by having a look at Part II (section 34) of Tihomir Dimitrov’s online book, 50 Nobel Laureates and other great scientists who believed in God.

So, was Jean-Paul Sartre an atheist, or even an anti-theist, at the end of his life? Evidently not.

There are three more names which don’t belong in Ungodly News’ Periodic Table of Atheists and Antitheists:

(1) Charles Darwin. Although his book The Origin of Species undoubtedly caused many readers to lose their religious faith, Darwin himself was not an atheist. As he wrote in a letter to John Fordyce, an author of several works on skepticism, on 7 May 1879: “It seems to me absurd to doubt that a man may be an ardent Theist & an evolutionist… In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. — I think that generally (and more and more so as I grow older), but not always, — that an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind.”

Darwin remained close friends with the vicar of Downe, John Innes, and continued to play a leading part in the parish work of the church. (See this article for more information.)

Atheist? Obviously not. Anti-theist? I think not. The man was an agnostic.

(2) Thomas Henry Huxley. Huxley was an agnostic (a term he coined himself in 1869), rather than an atheist. Here is his account of how he coined the term:

When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; Christian or a freethinker; I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until, at last, I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain “gnosis,”–had, more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble.

So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of “agnostic.” It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the “gnostic” of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. To my great satisfaction the term took. (Huxley, Thomas. Collected Essays, pp. 237–239. ISBN 1-85506-922-9.)

In a letter of September 23, 1860, to Charles Kingsley, Huxley touched on the subject of immortality:

I neither affirm nor deny the immortality of man. I see no reason for believing it, but, on the other hand, I have no means of disproving it.

Pray understand that I have no a priori objections to the doctrine. No man who has to deal daily and hourly with nature can trouble himself about a priori difficulties. Give me such evidence as would justify me in believing in anything else, and I will believe that. Why should I not? It is not half so wonderful as the conservation of force or the indestructibility of matter. Whoso clearly appreciates all that is implied in the falling of a stone can have no difficulty about any doctrine simply on account of its marvellousness.

Or as he put it in another letter to Kingsley, dated May 5, 1863, when discussing the immortality of the soul and the belief in future rewards and punishments:

Give me a scintilla of evidence, and I am ready to jump at them.

According to his Wikipedia biography, Huxley even supported the reading of an edited version of the Bible (shorn of “shortcomings and errors”) in schools. He believed that the Bible’s significant moral teachings and superb use of language were of continuing relevance to English life. As he put it:

“I do not advocate burning your ship to get rid of the cockroaches.”
(THH 1873. Critiques and Addresses, p. 90.)

I submit that while Huxley was certainly a fierce opponent of organized religion, he can hardly be called an anti-theist.

(3) Bill Gates. According to the very link cited by Ungodly News, Bill Gates is an agnostic, not an atheist. In his own words:

In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don’t know if there’s a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid.

Does that sound like the utterance of an “anti-theist” to you? No? I didn’t think so either.

Albert Einstein, Mark Twain, Jean-Paul Sartre, Charles Darwin, Thomas Henry Huxley, Bill Gates – that’s six mistakes altogether. That doesn’t sound like a very accurate periodic table to me. I’d say Ungodly News has got some ‘splainin’ to do!

Comments
I don't wish you wouldn't post. I just wish you would post thought that are original to you and that are actually on topic. As for your second question: I was pointing out that Einstein was only a theist in the loosest sense of the word. His "god" was a metaphor for the mystery of the universe. I was pointing out that neither Einstein nor Twain would be friends to the ID movement, and it is curious that the authors of this site-- all of them driven by motives that relate entirely to their desire to spread Christianity )and this is true regardless of their dissembling)-- would want to "claim" Einstein and Twain, when both men pointedly repudiated Christianity as silly superstition. That was my point.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
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Moreover Jessejoe, why do Einstein's 'blunders', for a beginning for the universe, and for 'spooky action at a distance' in quantum mechanics,,, blunders brought about by his base materialistic philosophy, not count against his brand of theism??? Does his opinion only count when you can use it to attack Christianity with and not at other times when he is shown to be wrong on his fundamental grasp of reality???bornagain77
June 28, 2011
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Jessejoe, well I happen to know that some people do read my posts since I have received e-mails of appreciation from them. (as well as e-mails of vehement hatred from militant atheists that just as soon wish, like you, that I would not post at all),,, But I am still intrigued as to why you would bypass Einstein's theism to attack Christianity. Do you are do you not adopt Einstein's theism??? And if not why do you feel it is now appropriate for you to attack Christianity using his opinion as your premise???bornagain77
June 28, 2011
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BA77, I do not mean to offend you, but I have a question for you: what exactly are you trying to accomplish by posting link after link to things that are barely related to the topic, if they are related at all? Because what you are succeeding at doing is getting people to skip your posts. i guarantee that no one on this website reads your posts in their entirety, because they don't add much of anything to the discussion. By all rights, you should have been reprimanded for spamming long ago, but your viewpoints accord with those of the people running this site, so they haven't done so (yet). Just a word to the wise.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
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vjt at 41: I think that's a false distinction. A mind is a mind, whether it enters into relationships with other minds or not. Robinson Caruso's mind didn't enter into any relationships with any other minds from the day he was shipwrecked until he met Friday, but he still had a mind. In 39, you ask, "Why does a mind require something brain-like? Presumably because only a brain is sufficiently integrated and inter-connected." I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That's what thoughts are - information acting on other information. Think of it this way: Does God know your name? Just "vjtorley" is about 56 bits, although it could probably be compressed to half that. But just to give every one of the six billion plus people alive today a unique identifying code would take over 32 bits per person or several hundred billion bits of info total. Or think of language in general: If He can understand English, He will need millions of bits of information just to cover the words, let alone how to put them together and do all the other processing that's associated with understanding a language and that information needs to be "on line". This is the single biggest weakness in ID - ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being "just existing" totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest. Just ask Rabbi M. Averick.dmullenix
June 28, 2011
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Excellent questions vjtorley! And ones that I have considered in some depth (though no doubt there are further depths to be plumbed!)
Why does a mind require something brain-like? Presumably because only a brain is sufficiently integrated and inter-connected. I can see why you would think that way.
Not just integrated and interconnected, though that is probably a prerequisite, but integrated and interconnected in a manner that allows intention to constrain and select action. But, essentially, yes :)
But if the universe is one in the way you describe, then everything is integrated and inter-connected at some level anyway – in which case, there IS a Mind, isn’t there?
Well, not necessarily, though it's an interesting thought :) For a start, we know the entire universe is not "integrated and interconnected" - it can't be, because (as I understand it - IANATheoretical Physicist!) the entire universe is larger than is possible for information to travel across (which is why our information about any part beyond our small observable subset is impossible to obtain). For a second, things can be coherent and interconnected and not have a mind - well I would argue that anyway. A human heart, kept alive for a transplant, is coherent and interconnected, but does not have a mind, and nor, I would say, do plants. On the other hand, there is a sense in which a crowd has a mind (often a much less intelligent mind than the individual minds that make it up). And a sense in which the whole of humanity has a mind, which has access to the wisdom of long dead human beings as well as to the wisdom of people in widely separated parts. In many ways the internet represents the evolution (oops, not in the Darwinian sense!) of a supra-individual mind. So I would say that in a real sense, a universal-mind is emerging, one that transcends the individuals - but at the moment is confined to our corner of the universe, as we are not in contact with any other minds (in the sense I am using the term), though I guess that may come :) But our minds are of course a component of the universe, and connected to at least a portion of the rest of it (and perhaps to all of it, in a causal sense). More importantly (as I see it) we have this extraordinary capacity which I refer to as Love - the ability to see, and sense, the world from Points of View (literally, as well as metaphorically) other than our own, and including the points of view of other sentient creatures (including our fellow human beings), and thus to de-prioritise the self in selecting our actions. We do it imperfectly of course, and sometimes scarcely at all, but we also have the capacity to reify it as Good (or even, as my son would have it, as Go_d) - an orientation, if you like to aspire to, to contemplate, even to worship, and from which to receive what (in my old theistic language) would call Grace. An Ideal Mind, if you will - which may not exist, in the sense that a chair exists, or a rabbit, or even you, but which does exist, in the sense that Justice, or, indeed Love exists. That's why I've said a couple of times that my God does not require faith- it's not a belief system, but an orientation system :) And it's based in the observable reality of the material world.Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
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Dear BA77, I was not looking for the best and most precise explanation and I'm not up for long e-mail conversations that take too long. I was simply interested in your opinion. Its fine if you have no opinion on this particular matter at hand.skynetx
June 28, 2011
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markf and dmullenix Thank you for your comments. I think we need to distinguish two senses of personal: (i) possessing a mind of some sort; and (ii) possessing a mind which enters into relationships with other minds. It is logically consistent to believe in a God who possesses a mind in sense (i) but not sense (ii). I think that's what Einstein believed.vjtorley
June 28, 2011
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markf (#34) You didn't provide a reference for your Einstein quote which ended as follows:
In this there is no Will, nor Aim, nor an Ought, but only Being.
I had a look on the Web, and I found a reference (see http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/personal.html ) to Goldman, p. 33. Looking further (see http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/biblio.html#einstgod ), I found the following bibliographic reference:
Goldman, Robert N., Einstein's God—Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (Joyce Aronson Inc.; Northvale, New Jersy; 1997). There are many quotations from Einstein in this work. Unfortunately Goldman almost never gives a reference for Einstein's words.
I'm going to treat this quote as spurious until it is properly documented.vjtorley
June 28, 2011
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Elizabeth (#32): Thank you for your post. You write:
I think it’s knowable that there is no God-with-a-mind, because I see no possibility of a mind without something brain-like, and the universe isn’t brain like, apart from the brains we know it contains.
Why does a mind require something brain-like? Presumably because only a brain is sufficiently integrated and inter-connected. I can see why you would think that way. But then you state:
... I think our sense that we are something apart from each other and the universe is indeed, an illusion. The universe (multiverses included!) is one, and we are part of it, and we know that a property of that universe is mind and love.
But if the universe is one in the way you describe, then everything is integrated and inter-connected at some level anyway - in which case, there IS a Mind, isn't there? Also, what is the difference between saying mind is a property of the universe and affirming the existence of a cosmic Mind?vjtorley
June 28, 2011
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Oh, dear, we really do have a language problem here, Nullasalus! Neither your fault nor mine, I think, it always happens on this topic. Partly it's because we can only use metaphors when talking of God (cf Aquinas), and metaphors are tricksy things. Let's try to drill down to where we differ - you say:
I suppose not. I mean, you’re a materialist, right? So there’s no morality in the world for you to draw from it.
No, I think there is lots of morality in the world, even though I regard the world as material (in a very broad sense - I do not think that everything that can be said to exist is material, just that everything that can be said to exist has causes intrinsic to the world) So why do we disagree? Possibly because we mean different things by morality. I am using it in the sense of: the concept that there are things we should do, as opposed to things we want to do. Is this how you are using the it? If not, could you clarify how you are using it? Thanks :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
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I didn’t say I thought things that gave me “warm fuzzies” were good and other things bad. You said: That’s where I get not only my warm fuzzies, but everything I used to get from my more conventional notion of God. As I said: Yep, I bet. I mean, that's what really matters, right? Embracing warm fuzzies, avoiding - I don't know, cold fuzzies - and getting what you want out of something. You're the one who stated it proudly - that I'm illustrating it's not much to be proud of.. well, if that gives you cold fuzzies, goodness, that's that. Yes, I draw inspiration from the awesomeness of the world. But I do not draw my morality from it. I suppose not. I mean, you're a materialist, right? So there's no morality in the world for you to draw from it. Of course, there's also nothing else for you to draw it from either. Just those warm fuzzies and what-you-likes, dressed up a bit nicer for people who won't notice how wacky the metaphors are. Let me put it to you this way. You said you can have (certain, apparently) knowledge God doesn't exist. I think that's nonsense, but I suppose I can offer back - I can have knowledge that someone's pantheism is pretty much a joke. Metaphors adding up to nothing much. But if it helps, just remember that jokes are a property of the universe. ;)nullasalus
June 28, 2011
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Nullasalus, I think you are confusing morality with belief. I didn't say I thought things that gave me "warm fuzzies" were good and other things bad. But if you are interested, my thoughts on morality are on the thread here: https://uncommondescent.com/science/why-there-is-no-scientific-explanation-for-evil And I only used the Fuzzy word in echo of vjtorley. Yes, I draw inspiration from the awesomeness of the world. But I do not draw my morality from it.Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
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Did you know that Simone De Bauvoir was promoting pedophilia in France? The leftish establishement went pretty far in France and it's not surprising that some of them, like Sartre, might have had some second though on their death bed.Kyrilluk
June 28, 2011
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#26 vj
he even referred to God as “someone.”
I assume you are referring to the hilighted sentence above: The child knows someone must have written those books. But this is not referring to God.  It is referring to whoever wrote the books in the analogy.  It does not follow that Einstein wants to extend that analogy to include “someone” or a “mind” when referring to the universe.  He may simply have been saying it was analogous in the sense that there was something behind the apparent order.  After all Einstein also wrote:
The sense of the religious, which is released through the experience of potentially nearing a logical grasp of these deep-lying world relations, is a feeling of awe and reverence for the manifest Reason which appears in reality. It does not lead to the assumption of a divine personality—a person who makes demands of us and takes an interest in our individual being. In this there is no Will, nor Aim, nor an Ought, but only Being.
This doesn’t sound much like a mind to me.markf
June 28, 2011
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I think it’s knowable that there is no God-with-a-mind, because I see no possibility of a mind without something brain-like, and the universe isn’t brain like, apart from the brains we know it contains. Yes, if you're a materialist, then you're a materialist. Of course, that still leaves room for a plethora of gods, from the Mormon conception to Zeus to otherwise. But in that case, many atheists aren’t atheists either (including Richard Dawkins IIRC) because many have said they “believe in Einstein’s God”. If someone says they believe in X's God, if they show no knowledge of what X believed, it's safe to write off what they're saying. That’s where I get not only my warm fuzzies, but everything I used to get from my more conventional notion of God. That's good. Because that's exactly what religion, and certainly God, is all about: Warm fuzzies, and getting what you want. If something doesn't give you warm fuzzies, it's bad. If it gives you warm fuzzies, it's good. If you get what you want out of it, it's good. If you don't get what you want out of it, it's bad. That is, pretty much, the popular atheist religion. (Putting aside that there's no 'true value' for consistent materialists. There's just... 'warm fuzzies'. And whatever gives them.)nullasalus
June 28, 2011
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PS: It's interesting you state as a criteria for God that "God has to have a mind of some sort". That may be the best touchstone for those labels. With that criterion, I am an atheist, not an agnostic. I think it's knowable that there is no God-with-a-mind, because I see no possibility of a mind without something brain-like, and the universe isn't brain like, apart from the brains we know it contains. And perhaps my pantheism is no more than warm-fuzzies-when-I-look-at-the-night-sky, but I don't think so. I call myself a pantheist because of that passage from Einstein I quoted above:
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive.
in other words because I think our sense that we are something apart from each other and the universe is indeed, an illusion. The universe (multiverses included!) is one, and we are part of it, and we know that a property of that universe is mind and love. That's where I get not only my warm fuzzies, but everything I used to get from my more conventional notion of God.Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
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OK, vjtorley, that's interesting, I didn't know that passage. But in that case, many atheists aren't atheists either (including Richard Dawkins IIRC) because many have said they "believe in Einstein's God". And I'm still not sure that Einstein believed in a Cosmic Mind. Perhaps he did. I don't :) Or rather, I am awed by a universe that brought forth Mind, and, even more, Love, but I don't ascribe to it a mind or love independently of that bringing-forth.Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
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xkcd has a strip that's appropriate here: http://xkcd.com/900/dmullenix
June 28, 2011
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"It is well-known that Albert Einstein rejected belief in an afterlife, and did not believe in a personal God who answered prayers." I would rank him as an atheist then. Dawkins was criticized because his arguments didn't reject all possible gods. He answered that he was only concerned with gods worth caring about and a god who is not personal (that is, doesn't have a mind) isn't a god worth caring about. Frankly, Einstein's "answer" sounds more like good PR to me. He knew that the athist label was the kiss of death, PR wise. This way, people know that he doesn't believe in God (the Jewish/Christian/Muslim Deity) but he's not saddled with the atheist label. I would translate, “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.” as "I believe the universe is lawful and nothing like the Christian God exists. "Agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive words. I consider myself both in that I don't believe there is a God, but I certainly can't prove the non-existence of anything whose properties include being completely undetectable when it desires to be.dmullenix
June 27, 2011
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Gil, I'm sorry if this is a presumptuous question. I don't know what kind of Christian you are, but are you worried about the fate of your father's soul if he doesn't believe in Jesus?Berceuse
June 27, 2011
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Neil, "If what I believe depends on what some famous person believed, then I don’t really believe anything at all; I am merely following a fad." Good point. Only I think most of us believe something that some famous person believes. This is pretty much how ideas are often disseminated. But we don't believe simply because they're famous. They're famous because what they believed intrigued people. You do have a very good point though. I don't think this is related to VJ's objection to these particular atheists claiming non-atheists as among their own. It's an issue of truth; since the militant atheists tend to use such information not just for information's sake, but to trump up atheism as something that is worth believing because some famous person believed it; which is exactly what you seem to object to. You will notice that no-one here is saying that the people who don't belong on the list are necessarily theists simply because they're not atheists.CannuckianYankee
June 27, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle, Thank you for your posts. You write:
What is your evidence that Einstein was not an atheist? He was, like many who also call themselves atheists, a “pantheist”.
Where is my evidence? The man's own words! He himself said, in a passage I cited above:
I’m absolutely not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
There you are. He said right out that he wasn't an atheist, and he even referred to God as "someone." You can't get any more explicit than that. I might be prepared to call him a pantheist of sorts, but there are pantheists and pantheists. Here's how I explain it. An atheist is simply a person who believes that there is no God. A strong atheist is absolutely sure that there is no God. A weak atheist simply says: "There are no good reasons to believe in God, and I'm prepared to bet, on a practical level, that there isn't one." An agnostic says: "Not enough information! I can't decide one way or the other." A dogmatic agnostic says: we can never know. "What's a God?" I hear you ask. At the very least, a God has to possess a mind of some sort. If it's not intelligent, I don't know why you'd want to cal it God - after all, you're smarter than it, so why should you? If it is intelligent, then there are four possibilities: it may be distinct from the cosmos and the cosmos may be independent of it (i.e. a Demiurge), or it may be a Transcendent Creator of the cosmos, or it may not be distinct from the cosmos: maybe it's simply identical with the cosmos (pantheism) or the cosmos is part of it (panentheism). As I read him, Spinoza was a thinker who believed that mind and matter were two sides of the same coin. His God certainly had a Mind, but was not distinct from the cosmos. Einstein's God seems to have had somewhat more freedom than Spinoza's, perhaps: He may or may not have been constrained to make only this cosmos. There are so-called pantheists who don't believe in a Mind out there - they just get a warm fuzzy feeling when they look at the night sky. I'd consider that to be the same as atheism. I think these people mis-read Einstein and imagine him to have been like them, failing to realize that he believed in a cosmic Mind, and they don't. Buddhists, I admit, don't fit into my schema very well: they believe in a cosmos governed by moral laws as well as physical ones (e.g. karma), but leave the basis for these laws unexplained. That's a bit odd.vjtorley
June 27, 2011
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Cannuk: "He clearly was not an atheist, and he did not take a liking to atheists..." It's funny how many atheists don't know this and label him an atheist. Or they do know this and are engaging in typical cunning lawyering.junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
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Lizzie, You may be right about Einstein being a pantheist based on his statement: "I believe in Spinoza's God." However, I have my doubts based on other statements he made if he really bought into everything Spinoza theorized. I think the following article best explains my doubts: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298,00.html Particularly this: "The religious inclination lies in the dim consciousness that dwells in humans that all nature, including the humans in it, is in no way an accidental game, but a work of lawfulness that there is a fundamental cause of all existence." Of course Spinoza claimed this as well. He used the Ontological argument for the existence of God. But where they seem to differ is that Spinoza's God could not have made nature any different than it is. For Einstein this seems to be somewhat illogical, given that the fundamental cause would also be responsible for the laws of nature. This sounds to me more like a prime mover as in Deism than a mover that is the same as nature and can't be any different. Einstein is hard to pin down as far as his religious beliefs. He clearly was not an atheist, and he did not take a liking to atheists in general, but he didn't articulate his beliefs clearly enough for anyone to really get a handle on them. He gave subtle hints, apparently preferring to leave the question open.CannuckianYankee
June 27, 2011
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Being an ex-atheist, I am fully persuaded that there is no such thing as a reasonable intellectual case against God. I'm also an ex-atheist, of the dreadful and pathetic Richard Dawkins variety. It's a long story, but ID played a major role in my conversion to Christianity.GilDodgen
June 27, 2011
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Dawkins formulation of the spectrum of religious belief between 1 strong theist and 7 strong atheist is more useful than a simple yes or no. Note that he does not rate himself a 7.markf
June 27, 2011
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GilDodgen... You said "This is very interesting. My father is an atheist (not a militant one, just an intellectual, dispassionate one) and the most brilliant scientist I have ever known. He is also the most Godly person I have ever known in terms of his ethics, personal life, and devotion to his wife and children. In many ways my father modeled Christ for me, and this had a great impact on my life. Life is full of profound ironies." I also find it interesting. Plz note that neither I or Paul Vitz is claiming that all atheists have dysfunctional or nonexistent relationships with their fathers, only that that hypothesis seems to fit a trend in some of the more notable atheists in recent history....a trend that perhaps UnGodly News should find the backbone to comment on instead of making false claims about people being atheist, when in fact they were or are not. And I applaud your father's good ethics and positive impact on your life. However, this in itself is no surprise, since people can be morally and ethically good and atheist at the same time. Being an ex-atheist, I am fully persuaded that there is no such thing as a reasonable intellectual case against God. Rather, it was only after I made a faith decision for Christ that I discovered that God has already provided sufficient evidence that made my faith decision a reasonable one. As such, if I had continued in my atheist faith, it would not have been due to a lack of evidence, but because I loved darkness more than the light. Joh 3:19-20Bantay
June 27, 2011
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The 'pantheism' thing is more complicated. Yes, I agree that if a pantheist is merely 'a materialist who says they're a pantheist because they feel spiritual, or other equally mindless word-game crap' I'd agree they're just atheists engaged in BS. Polishing a... let's be nice and call it a pile of rust. But belief in Brahman, or belief in God as Spinoza envisioned Him, or belief in a transcendent and fundamentally mental reality? Then it becomes less clear that a person is an atheist in a meaningful sense. Another way to think about it is this: Identifying God with Nature is not sufficient to establish one is an atheist. The question becomes what one's metaphysical view of nature is. In fact, it's not even enough to necessarily establish that one's God is an impersonal one. By the way, having a look at that table of the elements, here's a few others I'd say don't belong. * Carl Sagan. He was an agnostic who expressly denied atheism, and in fact said: An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid * George Carlin. Carlin hated organized religion, but that's not the same thing as being an atheist (which people seem to forget). The one quote I found of him talking about his beliefs was this quip: "When it comes to God's existence, I'm not an atheist and I'm not an agnostic. I'm an acrostic. The whole thing puzzles me" * Anaxagoras. Seriously? He of the Nous? Yes, I know he denied belief in the gods of his time, but his writings on the Nous alone would probably disqualify him. * David Hume. His atheism is disputed, and he never openly declared himself to be such. Arguably a deist. * Bill Gates. Is this the periodic table of agnostics who have nice things to say about religion? Or is this the usual game of 'I bet he's really an atheist and anti-theist but he just won't come out and say it'? That's just at a quick glance. I'm surprised Voltaire didn't make the cut, honestly. Usually he gets grandfathered in by some odd 'deists are actually atheists' clause.nullasalus
June 27, 2011
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Here is a little background information,,, In this following video is a description of the work of Bernhard Riemann, the son of a Christian minister, whose work on the math of ‘higher dimensionality’ opened the door for Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity; The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality - Gauss & Riemann - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ Carl Friedrich Gauss was a devout Christian who supported monarchy and opposed Napoleon, whom he saw as an outgrowth of the revolution. http://www.conservapedia.com/Carl_Friedrich_Gauss Gauss's work on complex numbers, like the square root of negative one, extend the idea of the one-dimensional number line to the two-dimensional complex plane by using the number line for the real part and adding a vertical axis to plot the imaginary part. In this way the complex numbers contain the ordinary real numbers while extending them in order to solve problems that would be impossible with only real numbers. This 'higher dimensional number line', particularly this understanding gained for the 'higher dimensionality' of the square root of negative one (i), is essential for understanding quantum mechanics: Bernhard Riemann was the son of a Christian minister who, like Gauss, was a devout Christian his entire life and whose work on the geometry of ‘higher dimensionality’ was essential for opening the door for Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity; Bernhard Riemann Excerpt: For his Habiltationsvortrag Riemann proposed three topics, and against his expectations Gauss chose the one on geometry. Riemann's lecture, "On the hypotheses that lie at the foundation of geometry" was given on June 10, 1854. This extraordinary work introduced (what is now called) an n-dimensional Riemannian manifold and its curvature tensor. It also, prophetically, discussed the relation of this mathematical space to actual space. Riemann's vision was realized by Einstein's general theory of relativity sixty years later. http://www.usna.edu/Users/math/meh/riemann.html 4-Dimensional Space-Time Of General Relativity - Every 3D Place Is Center In This Universe - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ ================= another piece of "Christian' trivia; Maxwell's equations Excerpt: Einstein dismissed the aether as unnecessary and concluded that Maxwell's equations predict the existence of a fixed speed of light, independent of the speed of the observer, and as such he used Maxwell's equations as the starting point for his special theory of relativity (e=mc^2). In doing so, he established the Lorentz transformation as being valid for all matter and not just Maxwell's equations. Maxwell's equations played a key role in Einstein's famous paper on special relativity; for example, in the opening paragraph of the paper, he motivated his theory by noting that a description of a conductor moving with respect to a magnet must generate a consistent set of fields irrespective of whether the force is calculated in the rest frame of the magnet or that of the conductor.[31] General relativity has also had a close relationship with Maxwell's equations. For example, Theodor Kaluza and Oskar Klein showed in the 1920s that Maxwell's equations can be derived by extending general relativity into five dimensions. This strategy of using higher dimensions to unify different forces remains an active area of research in particle physics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations James Clerk Maxwell and the Christian Proposition Excerpt: The minister who regularly visited him in his last weeks was astonished at his lucidity and the immense power and scope of his memory, but comments more particularly,[20] ... his illness drew out the whole heart and soul and spirit of the man: his firm and undoubting faith in the Incarnation and all its results; in the full sufficiency of the Atonement; in the work of the Holy Spirit. He had gauged and fathomed all the schemes and systems of philosophy, and had found them utterly empty and unsatisfying - "unworkable" was his own word about them - and he turned with simple faith to the Gospel of the Saviour. http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/Maxwell/maxwell.htmlbornagain77
June 27, 2011
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