Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

YouTube’s “C0nc0rdance” Reassures Us That The Evolution Of Chemotaxis Is Well In Hand

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I recently published an article on the marvelous design and engineering which undergirds the bacterial chemotaxis system. Since then, a notorious atheist who posts regular videos on YouTube under the alias “C0nc0rdance“, as well as “agentorange20” (under the latter, he identifies himself as Zachary Moore), has posted a rebuttal. This is a brief response to that rebuttal.

The extent to which two-component regulatory systems, or the chemotaxis system in particular, are irreducibly complex lay beyond the remit of my previous article, the purpose of which was to highlight the clear engineering analogues. With many of these signalling systems, there is an element of redundancy, with feedback and overlapping systems so as to make things stable and robust to error. As a result, there are often multiple versions that can still get the job done. Such systems are well designed — and detectably so — but there is no requisite for them to be irreducibly complex. However, it is my opinion that some subcomponents of the chemotaxis system may possibly be legitimately described as irreducibly complex (more on this to follow).

Such associated design and engineering principles associated with this system are obvious to those who are not pushing a materialist agenda. For example, one paper published in May of this year stated that,

Describing this pathway mathematically as a dynamical system can be facilitated by using tools from control theory. For example, it has been shown that the adaptation mechanism in the E. coli model is a particular example of integral control, a feedback system design principle used in control engineering to ensure the elimination of offset errors between a system’s desired and actual signals, irrespective of the levels of other signals.

One can discuss the clear design hallmarks pertinent to the system without even talking about the problems with the evolutionary account. The paper continues,

One of the different pathway configurations that is possible in this system has similarities to a feedback architecture commonly found in engineering control systems termed cascade control, which is usually employed when the process to be controlled can be split into a slow ‘primary’ sub-process ( in Figure 1) and a faster, secondary sub-process ( in Figure 1). […] In fact, cascade control is employed as a design principle in several engineering systems such as aircraft pitch control and industrial heat exchangers.

Moore raises four complaints with regards this system and irreducible complexity. Two of those complaints are relevant only to common descent (and not the grander thesis of neo-Darwinism that unguided mutation/selection are adequate to account for the system). Since ID is consistent with both common and uncommon descent, I will address the two points which are relevant to the adequacy of respective explanations.

Moore’s first complaint is that not all bacteria have the full pathway which I described. Before getting into the specifics, it is worth noting that irreducible complexity, as defined by Michael Behe in Darwin’s Black Box, does not entail that no simpler systems which perform the same job exist. In fact, Behe made this quite explicit. On page 43, Behe wrote,

To feel the full force of the conclusion that a system is irreducible complex and therefore has no functional precursors, we need to distinguish between a physical precursor and a conceptual precursor. The trap described above is not the only system that can immobilize a mouse. On other occasions my family has used a glue trap. In theory, at least, one can use a box propped open with a stick that could be tripped. Or one can simply shoot the mouse with a BB gun. These are not physical precursors to the standard mousetrap, however, since they cannot be transformed, step by Darwinian step, into a trap with a base, hammer, spring, catch and holding bar.

Similarly, it makes no sense to say that an automobile does not require an engine because one can use a bicycle! In like-manner, there are simpler ways to construct a flagellum. But that does not entail that a given flagellar system is not irreducibly complex. In the specific case which concerns us here, there may be alternative chemotaxis systems — but that does not nullify the irreducible complexity for the specific example that I described.

Another misconception which warrants clarification is the view that, for a system to be irreducibly complex, all of its subcomponents must be indispensable for the system’s overall functioning. But this is not the case. Contrary to this common misconception, irreducible complexity only requires that a subset of a given system’s components be indispensible.

Now, as Moore correctly notes, there is a significant amount of variation on chemotaxis systems. The pathway is best understood in the Gammaproteobacteria: a class of bacteria which includes E. Coli (the most extensively studied example) and Salmonella enterica. It is this class to which my previous discussion of the chemotaxis system pertained. A substantially less amount of data is available for other species of bacteria. Although individual genes bear homology to their Gammaproteobacteria counterparts, the pathways are somewhat mechanistically different. Furthermore, while general features of excitation remain conserved among bacteria and archaea, many of the more specific features are fairly diverse. One considerably more complex system than that of E. Coli is that of Bacillus subtilis (which you can read about here or here).

In E. coli, as discussed previously, chemoeffectors bind to the receptors and cause a conformational change in the methyl accepting chemotaxis proteins (MCPs). This conformational change is detected by CheA and CheW. This subsequently causes a change in the rate of autophosphorylation of CheA. CheA-P transfers phosphate groups to CheB and CheY. When CheY-P interacts with the switch, tumbling is induced. CheB-P acts as a methylesterase to remove methyl groups from the MCPs genearating methanol. CheR acts as a methyltransferase and methylates the MCPs. CheB thus brings about adaptation to the simuli by modifying the degree of methylation of the MCPs such that the rate of CheA autophosphorylation returns to the level it was at prior to the stimulus. CheZ acts to destroy the chemotactic signal by dephosphorylating CheY. In B. subtilis, the core control strategy for signal processing is very similar. However, B. subtilis possesses two additional feedback loops which provide an added layer of regulation. Moreover, although the proteins involved in both organisms are the same, the network structures are somewhat different.

So, in what ways are the pathways different between E. coli and B. subtilis? Rao et al. (2004) illustrate this with the aid of the following diagram:

chemotaxis e coli vs b subtilis.png

The figure legend reports,

(A) E. coli. (B) B. subtilis. Both organisms respond to extracellular signals by regulating the activity of the CheA histidine kinase. CheA is coupled to transmembrane receptors (MCP) by an adaptor protein CheW. Chemoattractants, by binding the receptor, inhibit CheA in E. coli (red line) (Borkovich et al. 1989) and stimulate CheA in B. subtilis (green line) (Garrity and Ordal 1997). CheA phosphorylates CheY. Phosphorylated CheY binds to the flagellar motor and increases the frequency of tumbles in E. coli (Cluzel et al. 2000) and runs in B. subtilis (Bischoff et al. 1993). Phosphorylated CheY is also predicted to inhibit the receptor complex in B. subtilis (dashed line). Both organisms tune the sensitivity of CheA to ligands by reversibly methylating the receptors using the CheR methytransferase and CheB methylesterase (Zimmer et al. 2000; Sourjik and Berg 2002b). Phosphorylation of CheB by CheA increases its methylesterase activity nearly 100-fold (Anand and Stock 2002). CheA activity is proportional to the degree of receptor methylation in E. coli. In B. subtilis, CheA activity depends on which residue is methylated, akin to a binary switch. E. coli possesses a phosphatase, CheZ, not present in B. subtilis, that enhances the rate of CheY dephosphorylation. B. subtilis possesses three chemotaxis proteins not found in E. coli: CheC, CheD, and CheV. CheC is a negative regulator of receptor methylation and homologous to the CheY-binding domain (P2) in CheA (Rosario et al. 1995; Rosario and Ordal 1996). CheD is a positive regulator of receptor methylation and also deamidates specific residues on the receptor (Kristich and Ordal 2002). CheV is a CheW-response regulator fusion. CheV is functionally redundant to CheW and is predicted to negatively regulate receptor activity (dashed line) (Rosario et al. 1994; Karatan et al. 2001).

So, yes, there are alternative ways in which different bacteria undergo chemotaxis, even with the same or similar components (for further information on the various chemotaxis systems, I refer readers to this paper). But having an alternative — even a simpler — means to accomplish a goal does not entail that you have a possible physical precursor which can be transformed step-by-Darwinian-step into the particular system which I described. The key defining characteristic of an irreducibly complex system is that multiple, co-ordinated and non-adaptive changes are required to attain novel utility. It is in achieving this end that the Darwinian mechanism is notoriously hopeless. As Michael Behe himself explains in response to John McDonald on the mousetrap

The second mousetrap (above) has a spring and a platform. One of the extended arms stands under tension at the very edge of the platform. The idea is that if a mouse in the vicinity jiggles the trap, the end of the arm slips over the edge and comes rushing down, and may pin the mouse’s paw or tail against the platform. Now, the first thing to notice is that the arms of the spring are in a different relationship to each other than in the first trap. To get to the configuration of the spring in the second trap from the configuration in the first, it seems to me one would have to proceed through the following steps[4]: (1) twist the arm that has one bend through about 90° so that the end segment is perpendicular to the axis of the spring and points toward the platform; (2) twist the other arm through about 180° so the first segment is pointing opposite to where it originally pointed (the exact value of the rotations depend on the lengths of the arms); (3) shorten one arm so that its length is less than the distance from the top of the platform to the floor (so that the end doesn’t first hit the floor before pinning the mouse). While the arms were being rotated and adjusted, the original one-piece trap would have lost function, and the second trap would not yet be working.

Moore also cites a 2009 paper by Schlesner et al. which concludes that “in the archael domain, previously unrecognized archaea-specific Che proteins are essential for relaying taxis signaling in the flagellar apparatus.” They also report,

Using protein-protein interaction analysis, we have identified three proteins in Halobacterium salinarum that interact with the chemotaxis (Che) proteins CheY, CheD, and CheC2, as well as the flagella accessory (Fla) proteins FlaCE and FlaD. Two of the proteins belong to the protein family DUF439, the third is a HEAT_PBS family protein. In-frame deletion strains for all three proteins were generated and analyzed as follows: a) photophobic responses were measured by a computer-based cell tracking system b) flagellar rotational bias was determined by dark-field microscopy, and c) chemotactic behavior was analyzed by a swarm plate assay. Strains deleted for the HEAT_PBS protein or one of the DUF439 proteins proved unable to switch the direction of flagellar rotation. In these mutants, flagella rotate only clockwise, resulting in exclusively forward swimming cells that are unable to respond to tactic signals. Deletion of the second DUF439 protein had only minimal effects. HEAT_PBS proteins could be identified in the chemotaxis gene regions of all motile haloarchaea sequenced so far, but not in those of other archaeal species. Genes coding for DUF439 proteins, however, were found to be integral parts of chemotaxis gene regions across the archaeal domain, and they were not detected in other genomic context.

So certain previously unrecognized Che proteins (which are specific to the archea domain) are essential for relaying chemotaxis signalling in archea. But the relevance of this to the present discussion is not entirely clear.

Moore also asserts that removing a single component rarely disrupts function. Contrary to this assertion, however, genetic knockout experiments reveal that knocking out single genes usually does disrupt function. As Rao et al. (2004) report,

E. coli and B. subtilis bias their motion towards favorable conditions with nearly identical behavior by adjusting the frequency of straight runs and reorienting tumbles. Both pathways (summarized in Figure 1 and Table 1) share five orthologous proteins with apparently identical biochemistry. How these individual orthologs contribute to the overall function, however, is different, as illustrated when synonymous orthologs are deleted in each organism. Deletion of the CheY response regulator causes E. coli to run exclusively and B. subtilis to tumble exclusively (Bischoff et al. 1993). When the CheR methyltransferase is deleted in E. coli, the cells are incapable of tumbles and only run. Likewise, when the CheB methylesterase is deleted, E. coli cells are incapable of runs and only tumble. In B. subtilis, cells still run and tumble when either CheB or CheR is deleted, though they no longer precisely adapt (Kirsch et al. 1993a, 1993b). Remarkably, both genes complement in the heterologous host. Deletion of the CheW adaptor protein in E. coli results in a run-only phenotype, whereas there is no change in phenotype for the synonymous deletion in B. subtilis. When the genes involved in regulating methylation are deleted (cheBR in E. coli and cheBCDR in B. subtilis), E. coli does not adapt (Segall et al. 1986), whereas B. subtilis either oscillates or partially adapts when exposed to attractants (Kirby et al. 1999). These differences demonstrate that the pathways are different even though they involve homologous proteins.

It seems that there are multiple systems, which could be argued to be irreducibly complex, in operation here. The CheY response regulator, for example, is an indispensable component, as illustrated in genetic knockout experiments where E. coli is seen to run exclusively and B. subtilis to tumble exclusively. Similar results are found when one knocks out the CheR methyltransferase in either E. coli or B. subtilis. CheW is indispensable to the system in E. coli, but not in B. subtilis. When you delete the genes involved in regulating methylation, the adaptation system in E. coli is completely lost, though only partially lost in B. subtilis.

Conclusion
I recommend that Dr. Moore re-read Michael Behe’s two books, Darwin’s Black Box and The Edge of Evolution for the ID perspective on the properties of irreducibly complex systems. Furthermore, I would stress once again that the case for design is not merely contingent on a negative complaint about the inadequacy of Darwinism. Rather, it is the observation that there are real engineering hallmarks in biological systems which forcefully compel the conclusion of intelligent design. Increasingly, we are learning that system evolvability requires the occurrence of multiple co-ordinated changes to facilitate novel utility and functional innovation. That is perhaps the biggest and most fundamental hurdle that the neo-Darwinian synthesis must overcome.

Comments
I'm not trying to be devious. Regardless of whether the specific fossil record shows ancestors or cousins, it shows a transition fro jaw bones to inner ear bones. It shows the incremental transition from one function to a new and complex function. I have trouble understanding how the best possible explanation of the transition is design. Jaw bones are very malleable and easily subject to selection. Look at what we've done with dogs in just a few hundred years. So in my mind the argument boils down to the attributes of the landscape, and whether research will demonstrate that the functional landscape supports incremental phenotypical change. This is developmental stuff, not the hard stuff that Behe writes about, like the origin of protein families.Petrushka
October 6, 2011
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I'll say yes. Just about anything can be modified into just about anything else through incremental steps. Bones are no exception. Unless you mean something more specific by incremental. The term could be applied to anything. When I type add letters to words and words to sentences.ScottAndrews
October 6, 2011
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My question isn't really about mechanism. It's whether jaw bones can be modified incrementally to make inner ear bones. Feel free to attribute the incremental changes to a designer. Is the incremental change possible?Petrushka
October 6, 2011
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The question I asked isn't even about mechanism. I asked whether jawbones can change incrementally into inner ear bones. Feel free to invoke a Designer to make the changes, one by one if you think that's how it happened. And feel free to explain the sequence of changes if they occurred somewhere than in the genome.Petrushka
October 6, 2011
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Dude, the design inference is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships in accordance with uniformitarianism- so why do YOU want to treat ID with rules different from those used in every other area of science? Well except for your position which remains untestable. Let me remind Nick that ID is not anti-evolution and evidence for common descent is not evidence for any mechanism. Also I will remind Nick the overwhelming majority of fossils of of marine invertebrates and in that vast majority we do not see evidence of universal common descent. That said, Nick, all I am asking for is something, anything that demonstrates the transformations required are even possible via changes to the genome. And just how are YOU defining evolution?Joseph
October 6, 2011
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Dude! If slow, gradual evolution happened in a well-fossilizable group, we should see a sequence of transitional fossils. And we do. Hypothesis proposed, hypothesis confirmed. This is how all science works. We didn't see the Atlantic ocean open up through continental drift, but the cumulative case of confirming evidence is overwhelming.. Why do you want to treat evolution with rules different from those used for every other area of science? And, anyway, if you doubt that evolution happened between these forms, I guess you're saying those highly similar fossils were each specially created, then went extinct -- even though this makes you even more antievolutionary than a young-earth creationist who believes that evolution can happen within "kinds"? Where's your evidence that this happened? Where's your evidence that it is even possible? Are you just invoking dozens of miracles because you think it's just impossible that evolution could move a few jawbones around a bit, which is the main difference between one transitional mammal-like reptile and the next one?NickMatzke_UD
October 6, 2011
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Petrushka, A series of incremental steps can change anything into anything.ScottAndrews
October 6, 2011
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Petrushka, Ear bones are located near the jaw, so you could rightfully call them jaw bones used by the ears. But I don't think that's what you meant. You're asking whether mammalian ear bones were once jaw bones that became used for a different function. I could answer it from an ID perspective - ID doesn't have one. But you're asking what I think personally. The evidence is sketchy. Evolutionists are fond of increasing their odds by claiming that there's not just one target, that any given adaptation is one of many possible outcomes. Then they turn around and say that this very same ear evolution happened in multiple convergent cases. Given any number of possible outcomes it keeps hitting the same target. (It's worth noting that the fossils used to support this transition aren't even considered ancestors of mammals. They are a separate instance of the same thing supposedly happening.) That's not an absolute logical contradiction, but it's fishy. On top of that, even if one piece were modified to fit a different purpose, that doesn't indicate natural selection at work because when you get down to the tiny details natural selection doesn't explain such major changes. If the very same change is observed in several instances then design and reuse of components start making a lot more sense. I'm not trying to obscure your original question, but it's a loaded one.ScottAndrews
October 6, 2011
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Do you disagree that a series of incremental steps can change jawbones into inner ear bones?Petrushka
October 6, 2011
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Nick, Bluffing and condescension don't answer this statement:
“actual biology” couldn’t even begin to detail the interrelated causes and effects that might produce such a transformation
You can document similarities and analyze prey capture all you want. The whole theory hinges on the part you keep avoiding. We're talking about the supposed cornerstone of biology, and apparently you have no idea how it even works. The molecular similarities are interesting, but it's the differences that require explanation. You're taking a stab at why they are different but ignoring or assuming how. Did you think no one would notice? I think this is an accurate statement: Nick Matzke, the former Public Information Project Director at the National Center for Science Education, cannot even imagine how a series of selected genetic or regulatory variations might transform a flypaper trap into a snap-trap. It's a bit harsh, but you like to throw rocks.ScottAndrews
October 6, 2011
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There isn't any evidence that mammalian middle ear bones were the jaw bones of reptiles.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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BTW there isn't any evidence that a reptile can "evolve" into a mammal. The claim is untestable.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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The request is the same. YOU have failed to provide genetic evidence for your claim. Also ID is NOT anti-evolution. You have fossils but no way of determining how those fossils came to be. I used to be an evolutionist, Nick. That is until I started to peel away the curtains and found nothing but BS behind them.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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Umm that "evidence" assumes it happened, Nick. There isn't any way to scientifically test the claim.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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Umm that evidence also points to a common design. Ya see no one has taken a slowly-moving glue trap, performed mutagenesis, and had a snap-trap develop.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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Sure there is: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex2 The differences between these fossils are not large. Even young-earth creationists often accept that natural evolutionary processes can produce the differences that occur within genera and within families, these differences are on that level.NickMatzke_UD
October 6, 2011
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He's still at it: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/wheel_of_fortune_new_work_by_t051621.htmlPetrushka
October 6, 2011
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Uh, you must have missed "Molecular evidence for the common origin of snap-traps among carnivorous plants" by Cameron et al. 2003. See the phylogeny with the characters mapped on.NickMatzke_UD
October 6, 2011
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Way to change the request! Now it's "I require every mutation over 600 million years before I'll believe the evolutionary position, whereas my ID position must provide absolutely no details of any kind whatsoever."NickMatzke_UD
October 6, 2011
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ScottAndrews: Do you disagree that the inner ear bones are jaw bones used for something else?Petrushka
October 6, 2011
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There isn't any evidence that jaw bones can become inner ear bones via blind and undirected chemical processes- well there isn't any evidence that jaw bones can become inner ear bones.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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Nick Matzke:
Of course, in making this response, Behe abandoned the original logic for why IC was supposed to be a problem for evolution, which was that intermediate systems would be “by definition nonfunctional” and therefore wouldn’t have been preserved by selection.
1- ID is NOT anti-evolution 2- Behe said IC is a problem for blind and undirected chemical processes 3- Your continued equivocation is duly noted 4- If the intermediate systems have a DIFFERENT function then it is more of a problem for blind and undirected processes- duhJoseph
October 6, 2011
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There isn't any genetic evidence to support the claim that the Venus Flytrap evolved from a slowly-moving glue trap (which resembled Drosera, the sundew genus), which itself evolved from a non-moving glue trap (like Drosophyllum and other basal sticky-leaf trap carnivorous plants in the Drosersaceae),.Joseph
October 6, 2011
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Nick, I know the evidence. However there isn't any evidence that changes in the genome can account for the physiological and anatomical transformations required. IOW Nick you need some genetic data to confirm the fossil data. Don't ya think the tehory requires BIOLOGICAL data Nick?Joseph
October 6, 2011
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This has nothing to do with me, I'm just telling you what is in the scientific literature, since you and many others are apparently happy to declare strong opinions without having looked any of this stuff up. The sticky leaf trap -> slow-moving sticky leaf trap --> fast-moving non-sticky leaf trap hypothesis was proposed by Darwin in his 1875 Insectivorous Plants and has since been confirmed by molecular, morphological, ecological, energetic, etc. studies.
Molecular evidence for the common origin of snap-traps among carnivorous plants Kenneth M. Cameron2,4, Kenneth J. Wurdack5 and Richard W. Jobson2,3 2The Lewis B. and Dorothy Cullman Program for Molecular Systematics Studies, The New York Botanical Garden, Bronx, New York 10458 USA; 3Department of Botany, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Queensland 4072 Australia The snap-trap leaves of the aquatic waterwheel plant (Aldrovanda) resemble those of Venus' flytrap (Dionaea), its distribution and habit are reminiscent of bladderworts (Utricularia), but it shares many reproductive characters with sundews (Drosera). Moreover, Aldrovanda has never been included in molecular phylogenetic studies, so it has been unclear whether snap-traps evolved only once or more than once among angiosperms. Using sequences from nuclear 18S and plastid rbcL, atpB, and matK genes, we show that Aldrovanda is sister to Dionaea, and this pair is sister to Drosera. Our results indicate that snap-traps are derived from flypaper-traps and have a common ancestry among flowering plants, despite the fact that this mechanism is used by both a terrestrial species and an aquatic one. Genetic and fossil evidence for the close relationship between these unique and threatened organisms indicate that carnivory evolved from a common ancestor within this caryophyllid clade at least 65 million years ago. Key Words: Aldrovanda * carnivorous plants * Dionaea * DNA * Droseraceae * molecular systematics * phylogeny
Evolving Darwin's 'most wonderful' plant: ecological steps to a snap-trap Thomas C. Gibson1, Donald M. Waller2 Article first published online: 1 JUL 2009 DOI: 10.1111/j.1469-8137.2009.02935.x New Phytologist Special Issue: Plant adaptation - following in Darwin's footsteps Volume 183, Issue 3, pages 575-587, August 2009 Summary Among carnivorous plants, Darwin was particularly fascinated by the speed and sensitivity of snap-traps in Dionaea and Aldrovanda. Recent molecular work confirms Darwin's conjecture that these monotypic taxa are sister to Drosera, meaning that snap-traps evolved from a 'flypaper' trap. Transitions include tentacles being modified into trigger hairs and marginal 'teeth', the loss of sticky tentacles, depressed digestive glands, and rapid leaf movement. Pre-adaptations are known for all these traits in Drosera yet snap-traps only evolved once. We hypothesize that selection to catch and retain large insects favored the evolution of elongate leaves and snap-tentacles in Drosera and snap-traps. Although sticky traps efficiently capture small prey, they allow larger prey to escape and may lose nutrients. Dionaea's snap-trap efficiently captures and processes larger prey providing higher, but variable, rewards. We develop a size-selective model and parametrize it with field data to demonstrate how selection to capture larger prey strongly favors snap-traps. As prey become larger, they also become rarer and gain the power to rip leaves, causing returns to larger snap-traps to plateau. We propose testing these hypotheses with specific field data and Darwin-like experiments. The complexity of snap-traps, competition with pitfall traps, and their association with ephemeral habitats all help to explain why this curious adaptation only evolved once.
Energetics and the evolution of carnivorous plants--Darwin's 'most wonderful plants in the world' Aaron M. Ellison1,* and Nicholas J. Gotelli2 + Author Affiliations 1Harvard Forest, Harvard University, 324 North Main Street, Petersham, MA 01366, USA 2Department of Biology, University of Vermont, 120 Marsh Life Sciences Building, Burlington, VT 05405, USA *To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: aellison@fas.harvard.edu Received May 6, 2008. Revision received June 5, 2008. Accepted June 16, 2008. Carnivory has evolved independently at least six times in five angiosperm orders. In spite of these independent origins, there is a remarkable morphological convergence of carnivorous plant traps and physiological convergence of mechanisms for digesting and assimilating prey. These convergent traits have made carnivorous plants model systems for addressing questions in plant molecular genetics, physiology, and evolutionary ecology. New data show that carnivorous plant genera with morphologically complex traps have higher relative rates of gene substitutions than do those with simple sticky traps. This observation suggests two alternative mechanisms for the evolution and diversification of carnivorous plant lineages. The 'energetics hypothesis' posits rapid morphological evolution resulting from a few changes in regulatory genes responsible for meeting the high energetic demands of active traps. The 'predictable prey capture hypothesis' further posits that complex traps yield more predictable and frequent prey captures. To evaluate these hypotheses, available data on the tempo and mode of carnivorous plant evolution were reviewed; patterns of prey capture by carnivorous plants were analysed; and the energetic costs and benefits of botanical carnivory were re-evaluated. Collectively, the data are more supportive of the energetics hypothesis than the predictable prey capture hypothesis. The energetics hypothesis is consistent with a phenomenological cost-benefit model for the evolution of botanical carnivory, and also accounts for data suggesting that carnivorous plants have leaf construction costs and scaling relationships among leaf traits that are substantially different from those of non-carnivorous plants.
NickMatzke_UD
October 5, 2011
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Nick, I must admit, I thought you were running away from that subject (which would be the smart thing to do) since "actual biology" couldn't even begin to detail the interrelated causes and effects that might produce such a transformation. But apparently now you have something substantial. My bad, I thought you were full of hot air, unable to distinguish your own speculation from 'actual biological' research, and trying to sound assertive because some people can't tell the difference. I'm ready to stand corrected. Where's the link?ScottAndrews
October 5, 2011
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Do you disagree that the inner ear bones are jaw bones used for something else?Petrushka
October 5, 2011
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IOW Nick, how can we test your claim that head evolution was a very long and very gradual process starting with encephalization in wormlike ancestors, with skulls, jaws, necks, large brains, etc. all acquired sequentially much much later?
Start googling: Wormlike ancestors (and living relatives): Haikouella Yunnanozoon urochordates cephalochordates skulls, jawless fish: conodonts calcichordates lamprey hagfish jaws: placoderms cartilagenous fishes necks: Tiktaalik etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapod#Fossil_early_tetrapods big brains: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/fun-with-homini-1.htmlNickMatzke_UD
October 5, 2011
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Of course, in making this response, Behe abandoned the original logic for why IC was supposed to be a problem for evolution, which was that intermediate systems would be "by definition nonfunctional" and therefore wouldn't have been preserved by selection.NickMatzke_UD
October 5, 2011
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As was pointed out, being able to catch a mouse with glue or even live surrounded by mice is irrelevant to the IC of a mousetrap.
Actually, considering that the Venus Flytrap evolved from a slowly-moving glue trap (which resembled Drosera, the sundew genus), which itself evolved from a non-moving glue trap (like Drosophyllum and other basal sticky-leaf trap carnivorous plants in the Drosersaceae), such facts are actually incredibly relevant, at least in actual biology.NickMatzke_UD
October 5, 2011
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