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Mike Behe: A Blind Man Carrying a Legless Man Can Safely Cross the Street

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(11 January 2012) Here

The work of Finnegan et al (2012) strikes me as quite thorough and elegant. I have no reason to doubt that events could have unfolded that way. However, the implications of the work for unguided evolution appear very different to me then they’ve been spun in media reports. ( http://tinyurl.com/7lawgpl ) The most glaringly obvious point is that, like the results of Lenski’s work, this is evolution by degradation. All of the functional parts of the system were already in place before random mutation began to degrade them. Thus it is of no help to Darwinists, who require a mechanism that will construct new, functional systems. What’s more, unlike Lenski’s results, the mutated system of Thornton and colleagues is not even advantageous; it is neutral, according to the authors. Perhaps sensing the disappointment for Darwinism in the results, the title of the paper and news reports emphasize that the “complexity” of the system has increased. But increased complexity by itself is no help to life — rather, life requires functional complexity. One can say, if one wishes, that a congenitally blind man teaming up with a congenitally legless man to safely move around the environment is an increase in “complexity” over a sighted, ambulatory person. But it certainly is no improvement, nor does it give the slightest clue how vision and locomotion arose.

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Comments
Peter:
Who is making that claim?
What claim?
That such systems arose from being brought into the same location and randomly shuffled?
Huh? I am just asking for evidence tat stochastic processes can contruct the protein configuration Nick is talking about.
It’s only you that claim that flagella arose in a single step, design.
Except design doesn't require just a single step. And if there was any evidence that any flagellum could arise via stochastic processes we wouldn't be having this discussion.Joe
January 17, 2012
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Peter, One clueless evo trying to support another clueless evo does not amount to evidence of any kind. That said I have already responded to Nick, many times. I am sick of his willful ignorance.Joe
January 17, 2012
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Peter:
You seem to hold great stock in “targeted searches”.
For a good reason-> they have been demonstrated to work.
If the search is targeted then the target was set in advance.
In some manner, yes. Ya see when engineers were looking for an antenna to do a spcific job they didn't know what teh antenna would look like, but they knew what it had to do. So they used a targeted search to get the antenna required based on the specification provided. I don't know when the targets were set. If I had all the answers then I wouldn't need science and if your position had any positive evidence then you wouldn't care about ID.Joe
January 17, 2012
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Joe, Who is making that claim? That such systems arose from being brought into the same location and randomly shuffled? Can you provide "evidentiary support" for your claims, you were just saying that Nick could not and used that exact phrase. The question is (as no ID supporter seems willing to call you on it) can you support even a single one of your claims when asked? Can you? Citation please. It's only you that claim that flagella arose in a single step, design. Nobody else.Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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Joe. You seem to hold great stock in "targeted searches". Well answer me a question then. If the search is targeted then the target was set in advance. So if that's the case then why "search" at all? Why not just put in the required information directly, if it's to hand? Why edit DNA at all (or how do you claim it is done?) to introduce the target when you can, well, just introduce the actual required data there and then? And when do you claim these targets were set? Billions of years ago? Yesterday? And if the targets are set in advance that means that the target setter knows the future! So you believe in an alien that can tell the future? Joe, you are trolling with me, a newbie, are you not! I can always tell!Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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Alternattive explanation for what?
Well, anything at all really. Take your pick. Just tell me what ID does explain, not what Darwinism does not.
- Nick’s “explanations” lack evidentiary support
And the evidence for your position is what exactly? How and where did "the information" arrive?
3- Think targeted searches
When is the target set? When is the target search activated? Where is the target information held? How is it preserved? When is it introduced? How can you tell if it still exists at all?Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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I would approach this case by trying to rule out reasonable alternative hypothesis. First, it is quite common in situations such as the case you cite, that differing levels of divergence following gene duplication and/or speciation can explain the degree of similarity. For example, if FigK has relatively fast evolution in Salmonella, but F1gE has relatively fast evolution in Buchnera, then Buchnera F1gK and Salmonella F1gE would be closest. Try drawing it out if it is not clear. Secondarily, I would always check that the convergence might be explainable by chance and neutral drift. All of this requires more detailed analysis.Starbuck
January 17, 2012
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Yes, indeed :) That paper's quite interesting, btw.Elizabeth Liddle
January 17, 2012
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Joe,
No Nick- you just don’t know what you are talking about, as usual.
Point and match to Nick I'd say. If you are unable to actually address his points then why even bother adding a comment? It only draws attention to your inability to respond in a cogent manner.Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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I'm just suggesting that shuffling information around is not a limitation in a feedback driven system. The concept of work in physics allows entropy to be selective shuffled from one system to another. Much as evaporation and rain allow the river to flow uphill. Metabolism, reproduction, fecundity and selection provide the means for information to flow from the environment to the genome. Regardless of how you define entropy or whether you posit a law of conservation, evolution does not violate any conservation law.Petrushka
January 17, 2012
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Nick:
The fact that you can’t just say “yes” to the statement that duplication + divergence is an increase in information, is exaclty the problem with the ID definition of “information” that I am getting at here.
Actually the "problem" is you and your misunderstanding.Joe
January 17, 2012
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Nick:
So I guess Meyer’s “Law of Conservation of Information”, isn’t, then.
No Nick- you just don't know what you are talking about, as usual.Joe
January 17, 2012
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Peter Griffin:
If Nick cannot use the example for the reason you have pointed out then presumably you have an alternative explanation in place that you can supply?
Alternattive explanation for what?
Otherwise it seems to me that you are in the same boat as Nick – no better or no worse, except that Nick can explain may things after the subsequent arrival of the information in question, and you cannot.
1- Nick's "explanations" lack evidentiary support 2- ID is not anti-evolution 3- Think targeted searchesJoe
January 17, 2012
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Learning, at its simplest, involves repeating responses that give good results and inhibiting responses that give none, or bad. It's built into the Darwinian algorithm, and also into Hebb's rule, also called "neural Darwinism". I don't think it violates any conservation laws. In fact, I think you could argue that it follows them: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660582/Elizabeth Liddle
January 17, 2012
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Does learning constitute shuffling information around? The process of variation and selection transfers information from the environment to the genome, at least the genome viewed from the perspective of the population. That could be characterized as work, which violates no conservation laws, regardless of how finely defined.Petrushka
January 17, 2012
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Joe, Interesting ideas.
Nick’s “example” is using already existing information that needs to be explained in the first place
If Nick cannot use the example for the reason you have pointed out then presumably you have an alternative explanation in place that you can supply? Otherwise it seems to me that you are in the same boat as Nick - no better or no worse, except that Nick can explain may things after the subsequent arrival of the information in question, and you cannot.Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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So I guess Meyer's "Law of Conservation of Information", isn't, then.NickMatzke_UD
January 17, 2012
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Let's say a bicycle has 1 million bits of information and a crushed bicycle lump has 1 bit. *If you copy the bicycle first*, then bicycle + lump has more information than bicycle plus nothing, doesn't it? And, like I noted, gene duplication and modification is nothing nearly so crude. The fact that you can't just say "yes" to the statement that duplication + divergence is an increase in information, is exaclty the problem with the ID definition of "information" that I am getting at here.NickMatzke_UD
January 17, 2012
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I notice that Nick responded overnight. I will be out most of the afternoon, but will be most happy to return and respond later today or evening.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2012
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Hi R0bb, 1- Design is a natural process 2- ID is not anti-evolution 3- Nick's "example" is using already existing information that needs to be explained in the first place 4- The argument is that stochastic processes can create CSI from scratch- meaning where there wasn't any SI in the first place.Joe
January 17, 2012
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I think, on any reasonable definition of “information”, the answer is “yes”. But this causes a problem for creationists/ID advocates, because they have invested a huge amount in the proposition that only intelligence can produce new information, and that natural processes such as evolution cannot.
Reference please- I know you are making that up, Nick.
Not sure which of Nick's two sentences you're referring to. If it's the second, here are a few references. Dembski and Marks, Life's Conservation Law:
The challenge of intelligent design, and of this paper in particular, is to show that when natural systems exhibit intelligence by producing information, they have in fact not created it from scratch but merely shuffled around existing information. Nature is a matrix for expressing already existent information. But the ultimate source of that information resides in an intelligence not reducible to nature.
Stephen Meyer, Signature in the Cell:
So should we think of information as thought — as a kind of mental chimera etched in stone or burned onto compact discs? Or can we define information less abstractly as, perhaps, just an improbable arrangement of matter? Whatever information is — whether thought or an elaborate arrangement of matter — one thing seems clear. What humans recognize as information certainly originates from conscious or intelligent activity.
(Emphasis in original.)R0bb
January 17, 2012
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Nick M
With regard to information, the main question I’m interested in is, if a gene is duplicated, and one copy get modified such that it has a different specificity or function, has the amount of information in the genome increased?
1- In a design scenario, no 2- In a non-design scenario you are question-begging
I think, on any reasonable definition of “information”, the answer is “yes”. But this causes a problem for creationists/ID advocates, because they have invested a huge amount in the proposition that only intelligence can produce new information, and that natural processes such as evolution cannot.
Reference please- I know you are making that up, Nick.Joe
January 17, 2012
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mk- forgetaboutit- Nick needs to start with what needs explaining in the first place. Gene duplications as a mechanism of Darwinian evolution was shot-down by Dr Spetenr in "Not By Chance"- Nick sed he has read the book yet cannot rememebr any of it. LoL!Joe
January 17, 2012
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Here is an experiment evos will not conduct- Take those proteins Throton et all were studying, put them in a flask and see if they will self-assemble into V-ATPase. Or take all of the flagella proteins and do the same. If nothing happens then self-assembly would be shot-down...Joe
January 17, 2012
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if a gene is duplicated, and one copy get modified such that it has a different specificity or function, has the amount of information in the genome increased?
1- In a design scenario, no 2- In a non-design scenario you are question-beggingJoe
January 17, 2012
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hey nick what about 'minimal complexity"? a 100 aa protein is still very complex protein and have a very large sequence space(20^100). so its not so simple at all. if you want to design a new ptoein that bind 2 substrate, you need a minimum 2 binding site. a simple binding site need somthing like 50 aa(from the paper of szostak in 2004)mk
January 17, 2012
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nullasalus; 8)bornagain77
January 17, 2012
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Meanwhile, nullasalus tiptoes around Nick’s question, trying to figure out how he can spin “information gain” into “degradation”. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls - step right up and watch Champ try to run amateur defense for the one and only Nick Matzke! Gaze in amazement as Champ tries to claim that a bicycle being smashed into a lump capable of being used as a doorstop is not an example of degradation! Gasp with astonishment as Champ fails to grasp why defining the smashing of a bicycle into a heavy lump as "information gain" may impact discussions of Thornton's lab work in ways neither he nor Matzke will appreciate! Look on in wonderment as Champ attributes ID beliefs to the man who regards ID as not science! Be baffled at his ability to react to polite questioning of his hero's logic with hostility! Can we expect blustering? Can we expect flustering? Yes, folks, all this and more - everything except accepting the obvious: that smashing a bicycle into a compact, heavy lump is an example of degradation! He regards this as "spin", members of this viewing audience (all 5 of you). Get the popcorn, put on your 3D glasses, and enjoy the show! Those of you in the front row, please have your body-sized plastic sheet ready. What Champ spews is a sight to behold, but you don't want to have to wash this out of your clothes if it splashes onto you. ;)nullasalus
January 16, 2012
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Onlookers, note the entertaining dynamic at work here. Upright Biped squirms for a while at the sight of Nick's question, then goes into hiding. This is especially amusing given the way UB was lecturing Elizabeth Liddle a few hours ago:
Do you not have any conscience at all? Are you capable of any truly genuine sense whatsoever of right and wrong in your actions regarding this matter? I don’t see it, Dr Liddle. Where is it? Are you a scientist or not? Allow me to show you how this is done Dr Liddle: “Yes, design proponents have produced some interesting evidence with regard to the rise of recorded information transfer in biological systems. I personally remain unconvinced by that evidence, but I cannot in good conscience maintain that the evidence does not exist or that it cannot be legitimately considered as evidence of design”. Now tell me, why is such a modest yet materially-honest response so far beyond your personal and professional capabilities Dr Liddle?
LOL. Okay, Upright, here's how it's done: "Yes, Nick, gene duplication followed by modification of the copy can result in an increase in information." Now tell me, Upright, why is such a modest yet materially honest response so far beyond your personal and professional capabilities? Meanwhile, nullasalus tiptoes around Nick's question, trying to figure out how he can spin "information gain" into "degradation". Stay tuned, onlookers. This should be good.champignon
January 16, 2012
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If you copy the bicycle first, so that you end up with a bicycle plus a doorstop, then yes. A little bit more. Alright, – so, take a copy, crush it into a doorstop. That’s an information gain according to you. That’s the standard you’re going for here. So, a followup question: would a copy of a bicycle that gets crushed into a doorstop be an example of degradation?nullasalus
January 16, 2012
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