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Term “irreducible complexity” revisited

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Further to: Where did the term irreducible complexity originate, Michael “Forbidden Archeology” Cremo writes to say,

Richard Thompson and I used the term “irreducible complexity” In our 1984 publication Origins.

“Looking at the complex phenomena that confront any observer of the universe, scientists have decided to try a reductionistic approach. They say, ‘Let’s try to reduce everything to measurements and try to explain them by simple universal laws.’ But there is no logical reason for ruling out in advance alternative strategies for comprehending the universe, strategies that might involve laws and principles of irreducible complexity.” (p. 4) Drutakarma Dasa (Michael A. Cremo), Bhutatma Dasa (Austin Gordon), and Sadaputa Dasa (Richard L. Thompso) 1984. Origins: Higher Dimensions in Science. Los Angeles: Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. 64 page magazine size pamphlet.

We also wrote (p. 58): “Having failed to reduce complex things to simple principles, the scientist now has two choices. First, he can simply stop,saaying these things exist but we can say nothing more about them. Second, he can go forward by searching for principles suitably complex to have generated the irreducible complexity he observes.”

Just before that (p. 58) we reference Elsasser: “Reviewing the conclusions of his own investigations, prominent biologist Walter M. Elsasser states that the complex biochemical forms of living organisms are ‘of a primary and irreducible type of natural order, on the same level as the more conventional laws of nature.”

–Walter M. Elsasser. A form of logic suited for biology. Progress in Theoretical Biology vol 6, 1981, p. 57.

Pos-Darwinista writes to say that the 1981 paper is free as a .pdf.

All leaves us wondering: Given the paucuity of the end result (now even Darwin’s finches have lost their sacred relic status), how much research into evolution has been efforts to keep Darwinism alive on cardiac bypass/life support, and how much had anything to do with life sciences as such?

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Comments
Collin: But when the signals are skeptically scrutinized, what principles or methods would the scientists rely on when trying to determine whether or not the messages come from an intelligent source? I bet they might use something akin to FCSI. If you flip your TV to old reruns of "I Love Lucy", do you calculate the FSCI to determine whether it is intelligent or not? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnbNcQlzV-4Zachriel
March 11, 2015
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Yarrgonaut @17
You do realize we can construct proteins, DNA, RNA, and other highly complex organic molecules as well right? All the information we’ve accrued about them from such research points to design. That’s really the issue. It’s not about what we don’t know, but where the evidence that we know is leading us.
EXCELLENT POINT! If CHartsil consistently applied this principle, then he would be an IDer because we know that intelligent humans can construct machines, codes, information, software, etc. I guess these guys pick and choose when they want to apply what principle and when they want to ignore a principle. Seems quite scientific, eh?tjguy
March 10, 2015
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I won the internets!Collin
March 10, 2015
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Chartsil, There are clearly many scientific theories that describe regular, predictable phenomena without identifying the mechanism. Zachriel, Fair enough. But when the signals are skeptically scrutinized, what principles or methods would the scientists rely on when trying to determine whether or not the messages come from an intelligent source? I bet they might use something akin to FCSI. Although I don't mind if someone thinks that ID has not yet identified design, I get annoyed when people disparage the endeavor a priori. ID is a real scholarly discipline and attempts are honestly being made to see if design can be detected in nature. I honestly don't see the problem with that. Unless it makes you emotionally uncomfortable that it might force you to believe in God. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure God will not make you believe in Him in this life.Collin
March 10, 2015
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Don't forget that he also copy / pastes the exact same arguments from article to article, and that clearly is one of his mechanisms too.Paleysghost
March 10, 2015
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I think CHartsil's comments are irreducibly complex, as they always seem to include gap arguments, strawman arguments and equivocations. I think he could not exist without them.logically_speaking
March 10, 2015
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Collin: Also, getting back to SETI. If a signal came from space that appeared to be message, would you have to know the identity of the sender or the way their constructed their communication device before you could say anything scientifically about the message? SETI assumes that organisms have evolved elsewhere in a similar fashion to humans, that is, on watery worlds revolving around stars. More particularly, SETI doesn't look for messages, but narrow-band electromagnetic emissions. Even if such an emission were discovered, it would be skeptically scrutinized. As for the message, any possibilities of understanding the message would again depend on association with what humans might send as a message. It's quite possible humans would not be able to recognize a message, much less understand it.Zachriel
March 10, 2015
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Newtonian Gravitation -- a powerful theory used to develop our understanding of the solar system, was non mechanistic. It is not a reasonable requirement of scientific work or theories that they be mechanistic. KFkairosfocus
March 10, 2015
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CH, "Strawman. We send radio signals so we know the mechanisms by which they’re sent." You do realize we can construct proteins, DNA, RNA, and other highly complex organic molecules as well right? All the information we've accrued about them from such research points to design. That's really the issue. It's not about what we don't know, but where the evidence that we know is leading us.Yarrgonaut
March 10, 2015
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CHartsil doesn't know anything about science. That much is obvious from its posts. A scientific hypothesis does NOT require a mechanism and CH cannot produce a reference to the contrary.Joe
March 10, 2015
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"Must a scientific hypothesis have a proposed mechanism to be scientific?" It's required for a hypothesis to become a theory, yes. "Also, getting back to SETI. If a signal came from space that appeared to be message, would you have to know the identity of the sender or the way their constructed their communication device before you could say anything scientifically about the message?" Strawman. We send radio signals so we know the mechanisms by which they're sent. SETI is apples to apples. ID and the following inferences are real apples to plastic oranges. "Just another thread where Chartsil gets laid out in the first round like a High School student boxing Issac Newton." From the one too scared to debate meCHartsil
March 10, 2015
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Just another thread where Chartsil gets laid out in the first round like a High School student boxing Issac Newton.Paleysghost
March 9, 2015
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CHartsil, Must a scientific hypothesis have a proposed mechanism to be scientific? If so, then is gravity scientific? How about consciousness? Would you deny the existence of consciousness? Is there a plausible mechanism for consciousness? Also, getting back to SETI. If a signal came from space that appeared to be message, would you have to know the identity of the sender or the way their constructed their communication device before you could say anything scientifically about the message?Collin
March 9, 2015
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Irreducible complexity is a great idea in modern science. It is a simple claim that biology is so complex that upon diving it down it still is so complex its living life. In short whether saying information or Gods glue biology is alive because of a essence not reducible to lower parts. Life is almost magical. its stuff is very complicated. Its not possible to have evolved or puffed into existence.Robert Byers
March 9, 2015
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Diogenes, You are a blathering idiot. That ID has all of the entailments of science means it is a scientific endeavor. ID makes testable predictions about the DESIGN. We don't need to know anything about the designer to do so. Obviously your scientific knowledge is very limited. And as we saw in the junk DNA threads, unguided evolution can't account for DNA.Joe
March 9, 2015
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CHartsil:
So then you should be able to easily name one single mechanism for ID.
That doesn't follow. However "built-in responses to environmental cues" is one such mechanism.Joe
March 9, 2015
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Right now there is no functional theory of evolution, and a new general theory of evolution is in the mills being horseshoed to fit evolutionary expectations, but it won't be selectionist, and will incorporate (contra Darwin) some neo-Lamarckian theoretical insights. It will be presented in 2020. Since science abhors the epistemological vacuum. By which evolutionary theory is Biology being done?Enezio E. De Almeida Filho
March 9, 2015
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Diogenes, as a faithful follower of one of human kinds most embarrassing and insane philosophies masquerading as science ever to plague the earth, you are disqualified from telling anyone they don't know what they're talking about. Since you and your kind have chosen to suspend all higher brain function in order to make a ridiculous impossible theory come to life, I hardly think you're in any position to be discussing what is and what isn't science either. Especially a theory that breaks pretty much every well established law and principle we have in science. With zero evidence and never having witnessed these alleged materialistic miracles, past or present, your position is one of faith and superstition. You wouldn't know what the scientific method was if it bit you on the backside ;)humbled
March 9, 2015
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Joe, you don't know what "entailment" means. If X has all the entailments of Y, it does not mean X= Y nor that X is a subset of Y. You probably want to say that X entails Y or is a subset of Y, if X then Y. But instead you said X has all the entailments of Y, which implies if Y then X. Which is not the same at all. You probably thought it sounded smart when you wrote it. Try to limit yourself to jargon words whose meanings you know. As we saw on the Junk DNA thread, ID can't make testable predictions about observables without making assumptions about the purposes of God. And if you deduce the purposes of God only by doing the observation first, you have circular logic, not the scientific method. No testable predictions, so no theory. As IDer Paul Nelson admitted, there is no theory of Intelligent Design.Diogenes
March 9, 2015
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So then you should be able to easily name one single mechanism for ID.CHartsil
March 9, 2015
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ID is scientific as it has all of the entailments of a scientific endeavor. Unguided evolution, OTOH, has nothing.Joe
March 9, 2015
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Maybe to someone who thinks ID is scientific.CHartsil
March 9, 2015
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And archaeology, forensic science and SETI are gap arguments...Joe
March 9, 2015
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So basically a gap argumentCHartsil
March 9, 2015
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Time to switch off the life support....Andre
March 9, 2015
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