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Dog breeds and speciation: Some interesting information

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File:A small cup of coffee.JPG Mainly about the history of intelligent design of dogs, for better or worse. Fascinating stuff about the turnspit dog. Also. here:

In order to understand how a breed can go extinct, first we need to get into what a breed is. And in order to get into that, we need to get into what a dog is.

According to the fossil record, the canine was first domesticated between 11,000 and 32,000 years ago. One theory is that ancient humans trapped the pups of ancient wolves, raised them as pets, and used them to hunt. This theory is known as the “hunter hypothesis.”

Another popular theory is known as the “scavenger hypothesis.” From an expert opinion in National Geographic:

Most likely, it was wolves that approached us, not the other way around, probably while they were scavenging around garbage dumps on the edge of human settlements. The wolves that were bold but aggressive would have been killed by humans, and so only the ones that were bold and friendly would have been tolerated.

In either hypothesis — hunter or scavenger — wolves found themselves among humans. In such an environment, a wolf did best if he had certain traits: tameness, obedience, and a general tendency to treat humans as neither predators nor food. Ancient humans had food and shelter to share with the kinder wolves, and weapons and cunning to fight the more aggressive ones.

As consequence, those boldest and friendliest wolves flourished, procreated, and begat later generations.

Good thinking. But the dog origins story may be too simple.

For one thing, it is hard to focus on two ends of a spectrum at once. Kinder wolves make better fireside pets but not good junkyard dogs. Ancient humans, like modern humans, needed to preserve canine qualities in balance, obviously. That’s design. It would require identifying and keeping breeds apart from the beginning.

The only animal the working security dog needs to not attack for sure is his handler (or other friendly dogs/handlers). Otherwise, the dog does whatever his handler tells him, whether it is vicious or not.

But if he were living in a wolf pack, he would—in the same way—need to know enough not to attack the alpha wolf. Also to get along with other wolves.

It may be that the real human achievement was to preserve separable qualities in different breeds. Thoughts?

Of possible interest to some:

The perfect therapy dog (you fall asleep just looking at him)

Guide dogs for the deaf

Note: Cats have fared better than dogs, if you go by the fact that a feline is pretty much the same, no matter what. But then, the cat always wins, right?

Comments
Zachriel, diversity from a parent species is NOT empirical evidence for microbes to man evolution. In fact, as I already mentioned in this thread at post 26, disparity preceding diversity in the fossil record is evidence against Darwinian evolution. i.e. The overall fossil record reveals a ‘top-down’ pattern of ‘disparity preceding diversity’. It does not reveal the ‘bottom up’ pattern of diversity preceding disparity that Charles Darwin himself had predicted: There are ‘yawning chasms’ in the ‘morphological space’ between the phyla which suddenly appeared in the Cambrian Explosion,,,
“Over the past 150 years or so, paleontologists have found many representatives of the phyla that were well-known in Darwin’s time (by analogy, the equivalent of the three primary colors) and a few completely new forms altogether (by analogy, some other distinct colors such as green and orange, perhaps). And, of course, within these phyla, there is a great deal of variety. Nevertheless, the analogy holds at least insofar as the differences in form between any member of one phylum and any member of another phylum are vast, and paleontologists have utterly failed to find forms that would fill these yawning chasms in what biotechnologists call “morphological space.” In other words, they have failed to find the paleolontogical equivalent of the numerous finely graded intermediate colors (Oedleton blue, dusty rose, gun barrel gray, magenta, etc.) that interior designers covet. Instead, extensive sampling of the fossil record has confirmed a strikingly discontinuous pattern in which representatives of the major phyla stand in stark isolation from members of other phyla, without intermediate forms filling the intervening morphological space.” Stephen Meyer – Darwin’s Doubt (p. 70)
Moreover, this ‘top down’ pattern, which is the complete opposite pattern as Darwin predicted for the fossil record, is not only found in the Cambrian Explosion, but this ‘top down’, disparity preceding diversity, pattern is also found in the fossil record subsequent to the Cambrian explosion as well.
“Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record because if you look at the record of phyla in the rocks as fossils why when they first appear we already see them all. The phyla are fully formed. It’s as if the phyla were created first and they were modified into classes and we see that the number of classes peak later than the number of phyla and the number of orders peak later than that. So it’s kind of a top down succession, you start with this basic body plans, the phyla, and you diversify them into classes, the major sub-divisions of the phyla, and these into orders and so on. So the fossil record is kind of backwards from what you would expect from in that sense from what you would expect from Darwin’s ideas.” James W. Valentine – as quoted from “On the Origin of Phyla: Interviews with James W. Valentine” – (as stated at 1:16:36 mark of video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtdFJXfvlm8&feature=player_detailpage#t=4595 Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head – July 30, 2013 Excerpt: evolutionary biologists,,, looked at nearly one hundred fossil groups to test the notion that it takes groups of animals many millions of years to reach their maximum diversity of form. Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. ,,,Dr Matthew Wills said: “This pattern, known as ‘early high disparity’, turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head. What is equally surprising in our findings is that groups of animals are likely to show early-high disparity regardless of when they originated over the last half a billion years. This isn’t a phenomenon particularly associated with the first radiation of animals (in the Cambrian Explosion), or periods in the immediate wake of mass extinctions.”,,, Author Martin Hughes, continued: “Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on. Co-author Dr Sylvain Gerber, added: “A key question now is what prevents groups from generating fundamentally new forms later on in their evolution.,,, per physorg “In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms.” TS Kemp – Fossils and Evolution,– Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 “What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types.” Robert L Carroll (born 1938) – vertebrate paleontologist who specialises in Paleozoic and Mesozoic amphibians
Supplemental notes:
Investigating Evolution: The Cambrian Explosion Part 1 – (4:45 minute mark – upside-down fossil record) video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DkbmuRhXRY Part 2 – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFM48XIXnk Timeline graphic on Cambrian Explosion from ‘Darwin’s Doubt’ (Disparity preceding Diversity) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/its_darwins_dou074341.html Stephen Meyer - 4 fatal flaws with macro-evolution - interview https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/stephen-meyer-4-fatal-flaws/id402803400?i=321212376&mt=2
bornagain77
April 11, 2015
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bornagain77: only in the Darwinian fairyland that you live in is empirical evidence considered irrelevant. Evidence is always relevant, but your linkfest doesn't address the claim.Zachriel
April 11, 2015
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Bornagain77, But it's a pretty fairyland filled with pretty and magical things, as long as you don't eat the fruit. ;-) -QQuerius
April 11, 2015
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Zachriel, only in the Darwinian fairyland that you live in is empirical evidence considered irrelevant. In the real world of science empirical evidence trumps imagination every time. Which is exactly the opposite as you apparently think science works!bornagain77
April 11, 2015
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Zachriel is obtuse if it thinks that an increase in mere diversity helps it.Joe
April 11, 2015
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bornagain77: refusal to notice Our statement was "Overall diversity can actually increase as the population splinters." Posting lots of irrelevant links doesn't constitute an argument.Zachriel
April 11, 2015
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bfast i don't but around them in my life. Are you saying they do have innate traits beyond common creature ones.??Robert Byers
April 10, 2015
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Thanks once again, bornagain77, for your interesting references. I listened with interest to the interview with James Valentine as he described his "top down" theory of evolution, which focused on the early proliferation of types of cells that made the Cambrian explosion possible. I thought that Dr. Valentine is one of those rare individuals who follows the evidence without massaging or force-fitting. Still, Dr.Valentine accepts without question the magical mechanism of rapid evolutionary change. It would have been interesting to ask him about the evolution of heritability--the amazing capacity to evolve the ability to evolve!
Novelties proliferate, but the fraction,, that’s vestigial grows, and the organism is eventually swamped and overwhelmed by harmful vestigial features.
It's my understanding that Darwinists have now thrown "vestigial organs" under the bus, and that they are considered to be both functional and evolving into something else, no different than anything else. The organs that is. ;-) Similarly, I'd also expect Darwinists to jettison junk DNA at some point, probably redefining it out of existence. -QQuerius
April 10, 2015
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Zachriel, refusal to notice the stench in your nostrils duly noted. The paper comes out next! Unexpectedly small effects of mutations in bacteria bring new perspectives - November 2010 Excerpt: Most mutations in the genes of the Salmonella bacterium have a surprisingly small negative impact on bacterial fitness. And this is the case regardless whether they lead to changes in the bacterial proteins or not.,,, using extremely sensitive growth measurements, doctoral candidate Peter Lind showed that most mutations reduced the rate of growth of bacteria by only 0.500 percent. No mutations completely disabled the function of the proteins, and very few had no impact at all. Even more surprising was the fact that mutations that do not change the protein sequence had negative effects similar to those of mutations that led to substitution of amino acids. A possible explanation is that most mutations may have their negative effect by altering mRNA structure, not proteins, as is commonly assumed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-unexpectedly-small-effects-mutations-bacteria.html Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaU4moNEBU Lenski's e-coli - Analysis of Genetic Entropy Excerpt: Mutants of E. coli obtained after 20,000 generations at 37°C were less “fit” than the wild-type strain when cultivated at either 20°C or 42°C. Other E. coli mutants obtained after 20,000 generations in medium where glucose was their sole catabolite tended to lose the ability to catabolize other carbohydrates. Such a reduction can be beneficially selected only as long as the organism remains in that constant environment. Ultimately, the genetic effect of these mutations is a loss of a function useful for one type of environment as a trade-off for adaptation to a different environment. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria Mutations : when benefits level off - June 2011 - (Lenski's e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7 New Research on Epistatic Interactions Shows "Overwhelmingly Negative" Fitness Costs and Limits to Evolution - Casey Luskin June 8, 2011 Excerpt: In essence, these studies found that there is a fitness cost to becoming more fit. As mutations increase, bacteria faced barriers to the amount they could continue to evolve. If this kind of evidence doesn't run counter to claims that neo-Darwinian evolution can evolve fundamentally new types of organisms and produce the astonishing diversity we observe in life, what does? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_research_on_epistatic_inte047151.html The preceding experiment was interesting, for they found, after 50,000 generations of e-coli which is equivalent to about 1,000,000 years of 'supposed' human evolution, only 5 'beneficial' mutations. Moreover, these 5 'beneficial' mutations were found to negatively interfere with each other when they were combined in the ancestral population. Needless to say, this is far, far short of the functional complexity we find in life that neo-Darwinism is required to explain the origination of. Testing Evolution in the Lab With Biologic Institute's Ann Gauger - podcast with link to peer-reviewed paper Excerpt: Dr. Gauger experimentally tested two-step adaptive paths that should have been within easy reach for bacterial populations. Listen in and learn what Dr. Gauger was surprised to find as she discusses the implications of these experiments for Darwinian evolution. Dr. Gauger's paper, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness,". http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2010-05-10T15_24_13-07_00 Scientists Discover What Makes The Same Type Of Cells Different - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Until now, cell variability was simply called “noise”, implying statistical random distribution. However, the results of the study now show that the different reactions are not random, but that certain causes (environmental clues) lead to predictable distribution patterns,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090911204217.htmbornagain77
April 10, 2015
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bornagain77: Zachriel, Au Contraire! Let's review the discussion.
Zachriel: Overall diversity can actually increase as the population splinters. bornagain77: In that statement you are claiming that biological information can increase by unguided material processes.
Here you are equating an increase in diversity with an increase in "biological information". A mutation in a bacterium in a population of otherwise identical bacteria is an increase in genetic diversity by definition. Hence, per your usage, it is an increase in "biological information". Then you conflated that with "non-trivial functional information/complexity". The topic was genetic diversity, not nTFI/C or whatever the acronym of the day is for Intelligent Design advocates.Zachriel
April 10, 2015
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Of related note: Neo-Darwinism's Catch-22: Before Evolving New Features, Organisms Would Be Swamped by Genetic Junk - Casey Luskin - April 10, 2015 Excerpt: A new peer-reviewed paper in the journal Complexity presents a computational model of evolution which shows that evolving new biological structures may be deterred by an unavoidable catch-22 problem.,,, This is a bit complex -- let's go over it again. Darwinian evolution either (1) produces nothing new, or (2) it's destined to produce boatloads of deadly junk. In the case of (2), the reward for trying new things is high compared to the cost of building new structures. But in order for the ratio to be high enough for complexity to increase, the cost of building new things must be negligible. Novelties proliferate, but the fraction,, that's vestigial grows, and the organism is eventually swamped and overwhelmed by harmful vestigial features. However, if you try to avoid the problem of (2) by making the reward-to-cost ratio lower, as in (1), then nothing new ever evolves. The authors think real biological organisms are closer to position (1). Indeed, study in the field of systems biology increasingly finds that biological systems contain very little junk.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/neo-darwinisms_095121.htmlbornagain77
April 10, 2015
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Zachriel, Au Contraire! Since organisms are stuffed to the brim with “non-trivial functional information/complexity” and material processes have never been observed creating “non-trivial functional information/complexity”, but Darwinists claim that unguided material processes can easily create “non-trivial functional information/complexity” then the question to the committed neo-Darwinist, such as yourself, will always be "Can unguided material processes create “non-trivial functional information/complexity”? The same 'stick their nose in it til they learn' technique is used on a dog until the dog finally learns not to crap in the house!bornagain77
April 10, 2015
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bornagain77: Zachriel, if you truly believe, with all your heart, soul, and faith, that unguided material processes can produce non-trivial functional information/complexity The question was diversity, not "non-trivial functional information/complexity".Zachriel
April 10, 2015
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Dogs and humans have a close history because we both: 1. Crave and seek approval 2. Have a tremendous desire to belong to a pack 3. Want to have a job and purpose in life I believe the Lord created dogs to align with the goals of Men so that we might have both their companionship and help.OldArmy94
April 10, 2015
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A simple example is a bacterium dividing with mutation, which results in more genetic diversity.
Biological information refers to the information in any given individual.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Zachriel, if you truly believe, with all your heart, soul, and faith, that unguided material processes can produce non-trivial functional information/complexity, then here is your chance to pick up the ball where Matzke failed, and to falsify ID once and for all. Simply go into the lab and demonstrate that the flagellum, or any other comparable molecular machine, can be created by unguided material processes.
It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/9957206/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_Scirus_Topic_Page_ “The argument that random variation and Darwinian gradualism may not be adequate to explain complex biological systems is hardly new […} in fact, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation for such a vast subject — evolution — with so little rigorous examination of how well its basic theses works in illuminating specific instances of biological adaptation or diversity.” Prof. James Shapiro – “In the Details…What?” National Review, 19 September 1996, pp. 64. Finally, a Detailed, Stepwise Proposal for a Major Evolutionary Change? - Michael Behe - March 10, 2015 Excerpt: I would say its (Nick Matzke's 2004 proposal for the evolution of the flagellum) chief problem is that it's terminally fuzzy, bases most of its speculation on sequence comparisons, and glides over difficulties that would have to be dealt with in nature.,,, That's one reason I wrote The Edge of Evolution -- to say that we no longer have to rely on our imaginations, that we have good evidence to show what Darwinian processes are capable of doing. When we look to see what they do when we are watching, we never see the sorts of progressive building of coherent systems that Darwinists imagine. Rather, we see tinkering around the edges with preexisting systems or degradation of complex systems to gain short-term advantage. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/finally_a_detai094271.html Calling Nick Matzke's literature bluff on molecular machines - DonaldM UD blogger - April 2013 Excerpt: So now, 10 years later in 2006 Matzke and Pallen come along with this review article. The interesting thing about this article is that, despite all the hand waving claims about all these dozens if not hundreds of peer reviewed research studies showing how evolution built a flagellum, Matzke and Pallen didn’t have a single such reference in their bibliography. Nor did they reference any such study in the article. Rather, the article went into great lengths to explain how a researcher might go about conducting a study to show how evolution could have produced the system. Well, if all those articles and studies were already there, why not just point them all out? In shorty, the entire article was a tacit admission that Behe had been right all along. Fast forward to now and Andre’s question directed to Matzke. We’re now some 17 years after Behe’s book came out where he made that famous claim. And, no surprise, there still is not a single peer reviewed research study that provides the Darwinian explanation for a bacterial flagellum (or any of the other irreducibly complex biological systems Behe mentioned in the book). We’re almost 7 years after the Matzke & Pallen article. So where are all these research studies? There’s been ample time for someone to do something in this regard. Matzke will not answer the question because there is no answer he can give…no peer reviewed research study he can reference, other than the usual literature bluffing he’s done in the past. https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/andre-asks-an-excellent-question-regarding-dna-as-a-part-of-an-in-cell-irreducibly-complex-communication-system/#comment-453291
bornagain77
April 10, 2015
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So lack of Focus ran away as opposed to referencing the theory of evolution to support its claim. Typical...Joe
April 10, 2015
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bornagain77: In that statement you are claiming that biological information can increase by unguided material processes. Of course it can. A simple example is a bacterium dividing with mutation, which results in more genetic diversity.Zachriel
April 10, 2015
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as to this claim: "Overall diversity can actually increase as the population splinters." In that statement you are claiming that biological information can increase by unguided material processes. Small problem with your claim. The claim is based on your neo-Darwinian imagination and is not based on any substantiating empirical evidence. In fact, the empirical evidence we have says that the vast majority of 'beneficial' adaptations will be accompanied by a loss of genetic information/functionality:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Biological Information - Loss-of-Function Mutations by Paul Giem 2015 - video playlist (Behe - Loss of function mutations are far more likely to fix in a population than gain of function mutations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ Where's the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q-PBeQELzT4pkgxB2ZOxGxwv6ynOixfzqzsFlCJ9jrw/edit
bornagain77
April 10, 2015
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Some clarifications: bFast: > A small community of organisms will be separated from the parent population. This small community will have some reduction in genetic diversity from the parent population. While the splinter community will necessarily have less genetic diversity due to its small population, that doesn't mean overall diversity has decreased, as the original population may continue unabated. Overall diversity can actually increase as the population splinters. As you point out, if the splinter population is successful, it will expand, and that will increase diversity within the splinter population. It's also possible that the splinter population will take over the habitat of the parent population. As this process is geologically rapid, the fossil record may show a succession of species with no record of the small splinter population or details of its rapid evolution. bFast: > This community will need to specialize. Those with genes that are not compatible with the specialization will be lost to the population (reduced genetic diversity). It may not need to specialize, but many variations, adaptive or not, will quickly fix within the splinter due to its small population. Furthermore, not all speciation is likely due to punctuated equilibrium.Zachriel
April 10, 2015
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Robert Byers, "No dogs have innate traits." Please tell me you don't own dogs.bFast
April 9, 2015
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Joe @ 23 speculated
That kills universal common descent unless this theory posits addition by subtraction.
Well, the math regarding the simultaneous increase and decrease of genetic information during evolution is pretty complicated, requiring partial differential equations and then dividing the result by zero. ;-) -QQuerius
April 9, 2015
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It wasn't that long ago. Only since the flood since the dog would of looked different. in fact I'm confident bears are the same kind as dogs and from the pairs off the ark. Its simple to tame them. Lots of creatures get tamed. Thats how we got our wives(Just kidding). The traits are not genetic. Just habits passed on to kids. simnple. No dogs have innate traits even though they try to say so with those who herd or fight or point etc.Robert Byers
April 9, 2015
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supplemental notes: Investigating Evolution: The Cambrian Explosion Part 1 – (4:45 minute mark - upside-down fossil record) video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DkbmuRhXRY Part 2 – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFM48XIXnk Timeline graphic on Cambrian Explosion from 'Darwin's Doubt' (Disparity preceding Diversity) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/its_darwins_dou074341.htmlbornagain77
April 9, 2015
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BA77 "Well that may be the theory bfast, but that ain’t the facts" This is true. The facts are that this model should produce ring species everywhere. Of last report, I understand that there are no ring species.bFast
April 9, 2015
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Well that may be the theory bfast, but that ain't the facts. The facts are: The loss of morphological traits over time, for all organisms found in the fossil record, was/is so consistent that it was made into a scientific law, i.e. 'Dollo's Law':
Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes: Excerpt: "As the history of animal life was traced in the fossil record during the 19th century, it was observed that once an anatomical feature was lost in the course of evolution it never staged a return. This observation became canonized as Dollo's law, after its propounder, and is taken as a general statement that evolution is irreversible." http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html
A general rule of thumb for the 'Deterioration/Genetic Entropy' of Dollo's Law as it applies to the fossil record is found here:
Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes ABSTRACT: Dollo's law, the concept that evolution is not substantively reversible, implies that the degradation of genetic information is sufficiently fast that genes or developmental pathways released from selective pressure will rapidly become nonfunctional. Using empirical data to assess the rate of loss of coding information in genes for proteins with varying degrees of tolerance to mutational change, we show that, in fact, there is a significant probability over evolutionary time scales of 0.5-6 million years for successful reactivation of silenced genes or "lost" developmental programs. Conversely, the reactivation of long (>10 million years)-unexpressed genes and dormant developmental pathways is not possible unless function is maintained by other selective constraints; http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html
Behe extended a time-symmetric Dollo's Law to the molecular level here:
Dollo’s law, the symmetry of time, and the edge of evolution - Michael Behe Excerpt: We predict that future investigations, like ours, will support a molecular version of Dollo's law:,,, Dr. Behe comments on the finding of the study, "The old, organismal, time-asymmetric Dollo’s law supposedly blocked off just the past to Darwinian processes, for arbitrary reasons. A Dollo’s law in the molecular sense of Bridgham et al (2009), however, is time-symmetric. A time-symmetric law will substantially block both the past and the future. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/dollos_law_the_symmetry_of_tim.html From Thornton's Lab, More Strong Experimental Support for a Limit to Darwinian Evolution - Michael Behe - June 23, 2014 Excerpt: In prior comments on Thornton's work I proposed something I dubbed a "Time-Symmetric Dollo's Law" (TSDL).3, 8 Briefly that means, because natural selection hones a protein to its present job (not to some putative future or past function), it will be very difficult to change a protein's current function to another one by random mutation plus natural selection.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/more_strong_exp087061.html
Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig weighs in here:
Some Further Research On Dollo's Law - Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig - November 2010 http://www.globalsciencebooks.info/JournalsSup/images/Sample/FOB_4(SI1)1-21o.pdf A. L. Hughes's New Non-Darwinian Mechanism of Adaption Was Discovered and Published in Detail by an ID Geneticist 25 Years Ago - Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig - December 2011 Excerpt: The original species had a greater genetic potential to adapt to all possible environments. In the course of time this broad capacity for adaptation has been steadily reduced in the respective habitats by the accumulation of slightly deleterious alleles (as well as total losses of genetic functions redundant for a habitat), with the exception, of course, of that part which was necessary for coping with a species' particular environment....By mutative reduction of the genetic potential, modifications became "heritable". -- As strange as it may at first sound, however, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For the characteristics were not acquired evolutionarily, but existed from the very beginning due to the greater adaptability. In many species only the genetic functions necessary for coping with the corresponding environment have been preserved from this adaptability potential. The "remainder" has been lost by mutations (accumulation of slightly disadvantageous alleles) -- in the formation of secondary species. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/a_l_hughess_new053881.html
Axe and Gauger weigh in here on the severe limits of just changing one protein into another protein, much less changing one creature into another creature:
"Biologist Douglas Axe on Evolution's (non) Ability to Produce New (Protein) Functions " - video Quote: It turns out once you get above the number six [changes in amino acids] -- and even at lower numbers actually -- but once you get above the number six you can pretty decisively rule out an evolutionary transition because it would take far more time than there is on planet Earth and larger populations than there are on planet Earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZiLsXO-dYo "Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?" - Ann Gauger - January 1, 2015 Excerpt: The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That's longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/happy_new_year092291.html
Moreover, the overall fossil record reveals a 'top-down' pattern of 'disparity preceding diversity'. It does not reveal the 'bottom up' pattern of diversity preceding disparity that Charles Darwin himself had predicted: There are 'yawning chasms' in the 'morphological space' between the phyla which suddenly appeared in the Cambrian Explosion,,,
"Over the past 150 years or so, paleontologists have found many representatives of the phyla that were well-known in Darwin’s time (by analogy, the equivalent of the three primary colors) and a few completely new forms altogether (by analogy, some other distinct colors such as green and orange, perhaps). And, of course, within these phyla, there is a great deal of variety. Nevertheless, the analogy holds at least insofar as the differences in form between any member of one phylum and any member of another phylum are vast, and paleontologists have utterly failed to find forms that would fill these yawning chasms in what biotechnologists call “morphological space.” In other words, they have failed to find the paleolontogical equivalent of the numerous finely graded intermediate colors (Oedleton blue, dusty rose, gun barrel gray, magenta, etc.) that interior designers covet. Instead, extensive sampling of the fossil record has confirmed a strikingly discontinuous pattern in which representatives of the major phyla stand in stark isolation from members of other phyla, without intermediate forms filling the intervening morphological space." Stephen Meyer - Darwin’s Doubt (p. 70)
Moreover, this 'top down' pattern, which is the complete opposite pattern as Darwin predicted for the fossil record, is not only found in the Cambrian Explosion, but this 'top down', disparity preceding diversity, pattern is also found in the fossil record subsequent to the Cambrian explosion as well.
“Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record because if you look at the record of phyla in the rocks as fossils why when they first appear we already see them all. The phyla are fully formed. It’s as if the phyla were created first and they were modified into classes and we see that the number of classes peak later than the number of phyla and the number of orders peak later than that. So it’s kind of a top down succession, you start with this basic body plans, the phyla, and you diversify them into classes, the major sub-divisions of the phyla, and these into orders and so on. So the fossil record is kind of backwards from what you would expect from in that sense from what you would expect from Darwin’s ideas." James W. Valentine - as quoted from "On the Origin of Phyla: Interviews with James W. Valentine" - (as stated at 1:16:36 mark of video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtdFJXfvlm8&feature=player_detailpage#t=4595 Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head – July 30, 2013 Excerpt: evolutionary biologists,,, looked at nearly one hundred fossil groups to test the notion that it takes groups of animals many millions of years to reach their maximum diversity of form. Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. ,,,Dr Matthew Wills said: “This pattern, known as ‘early high disparity’, turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head. What is equally surprising in our findings is that groups of animals are likely to show early-high disparity regardless of when they originated over the last half a billion years. This isn’t a phenomenon particularly associated with the first radiation of animals (in the Cambrian Explosion), or periods in the immediate wake of mass extinctions.”,,, Author Martin Hughes, continued: “Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on. Co-author Dr Sylvain Gerber, added: “A key question now is what prevents groups from generating fundamentally new forms later on in their evolution.,,, per physorg “In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms.” TS Kemp - Fossils and Evolution,– Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 “What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types.” Robert L Carroll (born 1938) – vertebrate paleontologist who specialises in Paleozoic and Mesozoic amphibians
Thus Darwinists may imagine whatever they want, but reality simply refuses to cooperate with whatever 'bottom up' scenario they may wish to posit!bornagain77
April 9, 2015
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Most accurately it's the Kansas City shuffle.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe, "That kills universal common descent unless this theory posits addition by subtraction." It would kill common descent if the only component was subtraction. More accurately, it is a theory of a few plodding steps forward and a couple of quick steps back.bFast
April 9, 2015
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That kills universal common descent unless this theory posits addition by subtraction. :cool: "Evolutionism, the theory of addition by subtraction"Joe
April 9, 2015
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BA77, "So neo-Darwinism predicts that genetic information will be lost during supposed ‘speciation’ events???" Actually, that is exactly what should happen according to Darwinian theory, especially when you consider the Darwinian view of punctuated equilibrium. According to the theory: > A small community of organisms will be separated from the parent population. This small community will have some reduction in genetic diversity from the parent population. > This community will need to specialize. Those with genes that are not compatible with the specialization will be lost to the population (reduced genetic diversity). > This community will thrive in its new niche. During this thriving, it will gradually take on new mutations, eventually making it so that it cannot, or at least would not choose to, mate with the host population. So -- when a new species is formed, it will have less genetic diversity than the parent species. Its genetic diversity will slowly grow as the millennia pass. Genetic diversity then is like breathing -- during active speciation, diversity is rapidly exhaled, during the inter-species period genetic diversity is slowly inhaled. That is what the theory concludes.bFast
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