Fun: Study explores whether atheism is rooted in reason or emotion

_{Denyse O'Leary

January 25, 2015

Atheism, Culture, Just For Fun, News}

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Closing our religion coverage a bit late today: From The Poached Egg:

A new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology finds that atheists and agnostics report anger toward God either in the past or anger focused on a hypothetical image of what they imagine God must be like. Julie Exline, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and the lead author of this recent study, has examined other data on this subject with identical results. Exline explains that her interest was first piqued when an early study of anger toward God revealed a counterintuitive finding: Those who reported no belief in God reported more grudges toward him than believers.

So it is a sign of good mental health to be really mad at someone you think doesn’t exist?

The fun part is that these kinds of studies are now being done on atheists and agnostics, rather than just inflicted on the rest of us. It’s great, knowing that if you say you’re a Catholic, and mean it, you can’t get roped into one of them. – O’Leary for News

Comments

velikovskys
I wonder how that compares to theists who actually don’t believe in God, but for other reasons engage in religious practice
That would be helpful to know. I guessed that it's a much smaller proportion of theists that don't believe in God. Some might argue that there are theists who act as if there is no God.
Certainly any atheist that believes in God is not an atheist.
Unless we define atheist as those who don't believe in God and those who are angry with God to the point that they claim not to believe he exists. In other words, the conflicted view could be included in the definition of atheist - at least sociologically.
Conflicted seems just a term used by the researcher to designate past belief in God, one should be careful not to assume being a member of the group means one is presently ” conflicted ” about one’s beliefs.
True. The researches claim those beliving-atheists are conflicted, but the atheists (self-defined) may not see a conflict at all. They could mean that they 'don't believe in the God they're angry at'. As some atheistic critics point out, depending on how one defines 'a god', then atheists could unknowingly accept that 'a god in their life' exists. Atheists could give something like worship to a political leader - as is given to North Korea's Kim Jong-un. He is 'a god' for atheists.
A second point is that one must differentiate between anger at God and anger at religion, religion is known to exist.
True, but I'd think that would be clear in most cases - a person can be angry with religion and still believe in God.Silver Asiatic_{January 27, 2015
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I'm an atheist and have never been angry at god. I have been angry at my old church, its leaders, their plain denial of heinous sexual hypocrisy, their cover ups, their use of vast power to cover their tracks and protect vile criminals. No! I'm not angry at god, just the benighted people whom believe their god is right and gives them the authority to dictate distorted morality; give me the humanist kind of morality every time.rvb8_{January 26, 2015
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"So it is a sign of good mental health to be really mad at someone you think doesn’t exist?" No! Which makes you wonder, maybe atheism really is a form of mental illness....KRock_{January 26, 2015
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@Me_Think It would appear you did...KRock_{January 26, 2015
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KRock @ 25 Yeah, I forgot to add that !Me_Think_{January 26, 2015
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@Me_Think Go figure...KRock_{January 26, 2015
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KRock @ 23,
The funny thing is, atheism wouldn’t even exist without concept of God… Go figure.
..Neither will theism.Me_Think_{January 26, 2015
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The funny thing is, atheism wouldn't even exist without the concept of God... Go figure.KRock_{January 26, 2015
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And I think it may be more accurate to refer to atheists being angry with people who justify their own behavior by claiming non-existent authority.
Or it may be accurate to say that atheists (and likely everybody else) are angry at, or hate, or are bemused by people who attempt to read their minds instead of actually talking to them and taking them by their word. But I guess next WJM will tell us that logically atheists can in fact only be angry at their own conception of God (or they are sociopaths).hrun0815_{January 26, 2015
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Logically, the only thing an atheist can be hating is their conception of god, and I think their conception of god is for the most part worthy of the hate, derision and ridicule they pile upon it.
No. That is logically not the only thing an atheist can be hating. Atheists can also hate other's conception of God. Unless you want to posit it impossible to convey their conception of God. In addition an atheist can hate the consequences of a belief in a God in general or in a specific conception of God.hrun0815_{January 26, 2015
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Sa: Depending on how one defines atheism and following the research – it would be correct to say that ‘some atheists are atheists because they are angry with God’. Yes that seems correct, as far as undergraduates go. And many of those atheists believe in God. This is the contradiction that remains unanswered. True, it would be helpful to see exactly how they self identified as atheists, I could not find that info. but it seems some are confused that you can believe in God and still be an atheist. But people often confuse atheism with agnosticism. You don’t believe he exists and you believe he exists. Deists are atheistic when it comes to a particular God, perhaps the wording of the questionnaire was ambiguous. We might conclude better that “you don’t admit that you believe he exists”. Yes or they are engaged in a form of Pascal's Wager. But for some percentage of atheists ,God is irrelevant. If true, then it would be appropriate to question self-described atheists to see if they have a subconscious, unknown to themselves, unadmitted belief in God. Maybe,it sounds a bit rude but it would be false to assume that is the only option. Even of those who had a belief in God ,it was described as " some". That leaves a lot of room. I wonder how that compares to theists who actually don't believe in God, but for other reasons engage in religious practice Beyond that, if one can determine that a self-described atheist has anger towards God, one could be justified in concluding that the person is conflicted or actually is not an atheist, in spite of the label. Certainly any atheist that believes in God is not an atheist. Conflicted seems just a term used by the researcher to designate past belief in God, one should be careful not to assume being a member of the group means one is presently " conflicted " about one's beliefs. A second point is that one must differentiate between anger at God and anger at religion, religion is known to existvelikovskys_{January 26, 2015
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As an Agnostic, I don't think there was a time when I was even seriously angry at the Catholic Church. They just became less and less convincing as I read more. I now accept that there is a God, but he's not Jehovah and never was. The belief in a single Supreme Being and the immortally of the human soul are the fundamental pieces of Shamanism, and as I have just read, Egyptian "sun worship". Only 1 God, lots of different names, and every soul goes to where it can be with God when the body dies. This is the oldest, most universal piece of human culture on the planet. It's the details selected by individual religions that cause all the problems. I know a number of what I call "active Atheists", people who denounce all religion at every opportunity. They do seem to be angry, unhappy people who take some joy in NOT being Believers. But as demonstrated by the Darwinists, I don't know any Atheists who have any deep or broad understanding of what they're AGAINST. That is, I don't think people become Atheists, rather than just Agnostics (people waiting to believe), after reading the works of philosophers and theologians. As near as I can tell, they've simply heard denunciations of the Catholic Church or Baptists or perhaps Shintoism, and have concluded that the 5 minute version of those religions doesn't make any sense. But of course the 5 minute version of almost ANYTHING doesn't make much sense. It really is a Journey. Each person needs to learn and understand WHAT they believe and don't believe, and WHY they believe and don't believe things. Peace & Joy.mahuna_{January 26, 2015
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velikovskys said:
Since theists engage in the same behavior you may have to broaden your search from atheism alone
Broaden my search ... of what? The thread is about atheism. Deflecting doesn't address the issues of atheists being discussed.
In other words they should follow the example of tolerance that religion has shown for opposing views over history.
One would think that without a dedicated belief in what an actual god is like, an atheist would be more capable of developing a conceptualization of god - at least, the kind of god they conceptualize that theists believe in - in order to better interact with believers. I mean, what's the purpose of carrying around an idea of god that keeps you angry, condescending and derisive - unless, of course, you just enjoy feeling that way? However, most of the atheists I've argued with on the internet are every bit as committed to a particular conceptualization of god as any religious zealot; I've often told the same person several times that I don't believe in the kind of god they were arguing against and they kept bringing up that same concept of god as if I was trying to make a case for it - as if they hadn't even heard me.William J Murray_{January 26, 2015
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They're angry at him for not existing.lpadron_{January 26, 2015
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velikovskys
So it is incorrect to say atheists are atheists because they are anger with God.
Depending on how one defines atheism and following the research - it would be correct to say that 'some atheists are atheists because they are angry with God'.
True, just as theism can.
I don't know of studies that show a parallel result - a significant number of theists who claim that God does not exist.
True but it answers the question how you can be angry at God who you don’t believe exists, you believe he exists.
This is the contradiction that remains unanswered. You don't believe he exists and you believe he exists. We might conclude better that "you don't admit that you believe he exists". If true, then it would be appropriate to question self-described atheists to see if they have a subconscious, unknown to themselves, unadmitted belief in God. Beyond that, if one can determine that a self-described atheist has anger towards God, one could be justified in concluding that the person is conflicted or actually is not an atheist, in spite of the label.Silver Asiatic_{January 26, 2015
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wjm: One wonders, though, why they cling so desperately to that particular conception of god? Maybe religious indoctrination is hard to shake, after all the prospect of spending eternity in hell is a good motivation to toe the line It’s almost like they want to hate the beliefs of theists and want to see theism in a way worthy of ridicule and derision, Since theists engage in the same behavior you may have to broaden your search from atheism alone when it would certainly be beneficial to them to find a more tolerant perspective than one that puts them at bitter odds with most of the people in the world. In other words they should follow the example of tolerance that religion has shown for opposing views over history.velikovskys_{January 26, 2015
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SA: It may also be true that there’s no real conflict. The term ‘atheist’ may correctly refer to all individuals who use the term to self-identify Depends on how you define atheism, just as there is a range of those who believe in God . Atheism could include a conflicted mentality as part of its group-definition. True, just as theism can.velikovskys_{January 26, 2015
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Sa, It doesn’t explain why they consider themselves atheists or why they are conflicted. Just be clear, we are now talking about a sub group of atheists, most who actually when measured beyond self reporting have a belief in God. For the first, the researchers provided no data, maybe the respondents are confused, they think that not believing in one interpretation of God means you don't believe in God. Second, there are lots of theists who have issues with their God. The problem of evil is a response as is the concept of original sin. Some percentage of the group self-described as atheist are “conflicted unbelievers” in the term used by the researchers. True, but many are non unbelievers, go figure Some of those both claim to have no belief in God but somehow also do believe in God (enough to be angry at God). True but it answers the question how you can be angry at God who you don't believe exists, you believe he exists. But for simple unbelievers, no anger. So it is incorrect to say atheists are atheists because they are anger with God.velikovskys_{January 26, 2015
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As I argued with what I think was my first original thread here two years ago, there is no form of atheism that is rationally justifiable. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/is-atheism-rationally-justifiable/William J Murray_{January 26, 2015
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I think it may be more accurate to refer to those atheists as being angry at the thought of God, not "angry at God". Logically, the only thing an atheist can be hating is their conception of god, and I think their conception of god is for the most part worthy of the hate, derision and ridicule they pile upon it. One wonders, though, why they cling so desperately to that particular conception of god? It's almost like they want to hate the beliefs of theists and want to see theism in a way worthy of ridicule and derision, when it would certainly be beneficial to them to find a more tolerant perspective than one that puts them at bitter odds with most of the people in the world.William J Murray_{January 26, 2015
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this is also a bit ridiculous for the increasingly large number who grew up in a surrounding where God and religion were just a curious cultural phenomena in others. I find it difficult to see any way how you could tie their atheism to any type of 'anger against God'. And ForJah is exactly right that one very carefully has to distinguish 'anger at God' from 'anger against the belief in God' and even from 'anger against God if there was such an entity'.hrun0815_{January 26, 2015
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As an atheist, this really is silly. My reasoning lead me away from God only AFTER that did I start to appeal to emotional reasons, as the study is clearly biased or at least unclear in that sense. I harbor anger at the concept of God, and I do so reasonably. Certainly we all are justified in being "a-nazists" because we are angry at what Hitler was doing, so the Christian concept of God is essentially the same kind of person that Hitler is, thus anger is significantly justified with reason. The emotion is the product of an atheists reason, not the other way around. As for the believer, I would say it's the same way as well, except for the believer...I think that there are MANY MANY moments when you have to suppress moments of cognitive dissonance between the monstrous character the bible describes God as being with your own 21st morals.ForJah_{January 26, 2015
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velikovskys It doesn't explain why they consider themselves atheists or why they are conflicted. Some percentage of the group self-described as atheist are "conflicted unbelievers" in the term used by the researchers. Some of those both claim to have no belief in God but somehow also do believe in God (enough to be angry at God). It may also be true that there's no real conflict. The term 'atheist' may correctly refer to all individuals who use the term to self-identify. Atheism could include a conflicted mentality as part of its group-definition.Silver Asiatic_{January 26, 2015
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sa: The findings about anger against God and atheism are fascinating, but it’s just the first step. I would hope research would follow-up to figure out how atheists and agnostics can reconcile their anger against God with belief that God does not exist. it? Some atheists might point to this" " A closer look at the second dataset (Kampani & Exline, 2002) suggested that there were two different groups of unbelievers. One group was labeled simple unbelievers. These individuals reported that they had never believed in God, and they seemed to have little or no emotion around the issue. They typi- cally skipped questions that asked about emotions and attitudes toward God— presumably because they had never be- lieved in God. There was also a second group of people whose pattern of re- sponses indicated a past belief in God, followed by a decrease in belief over time. In contrast to the simple unbelievers, these participants usually did answer ques- tions that asked about emotions and atti- tudes toward God. Even though many of them currently labeled themselves as athe- ist/agnostic, they had some past history of believing in God. Many also reported some current belief in God when beliefs were tapped using a 10-point scale (as opposed to a dichotomous category). We labeled this group conflicted unbelievers. In subsequent analyses we compared both unbeliever groups with a group labeled believers. When compared to believers, conflicted unbelievers reported more negative feelings toward God, more negative attributions about God’s inten- tions, fewer approach behaviors toward God, less sense of having been repaid by God, and less satisfaction with the out- come of the incident. (Note that we could not make comparisons with simple unbe- lievers because they did not answer the questions about feelings toward God.) Relative to believers, conflicted unbeliev- ers reported more anxious/ambivalent and avoidant attachment. Conflicted unbeliev- ers also reported lower self-esteem than believers or simple unbelievers. Although preliminary, these findings suggest that it is meaningful to assess feelings of anger toward God even among people who are not certain that they believe in God. They are also consistent with the notion that certain people may be psychologically predisposed to experience crises of faith (see also Altemeyer & Hunsberger, 1997). PSYCHOLOGY OF RELIGION NEWSLETTER — APA DIVISION 36 The group surveyed consisted of undergraduate students It seems that many of the " atheists" who are angry have a current belief in God. Generally atheists might point out ,atheists by definition don't believe in God and this group, conflicted unbelievers, whose beliefs you have generalized to all or most atheists, would be therefore more accurately designated as conflicted believers.velikovskys_{January 26, 2015
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Romans chapter 1, anyone? The truth and knowledge of God's existence is suppressed in unrighteousness. But it comes out.geoffrobinson_{January 26, 2015
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“I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that. My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about human life, including everything about the human mind …. This is a somewhat ridiculous situation …. [I]t is just as irrational to be influenced in one’s beliefs by the hope that God does not exist as by the hope that God does exist.”
[Thomas Nagel]Box_{January 26, 2015
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News
So it is a sign of good mental health to be really mad at someone you think doesn’t exist?
That's the more difficult question. From the article:
At first glance, this finding seemed to reflect an error. How could people be angry with God if they did not believe in God? Reanalyses of a second dataset revealed similar patterns: Those who endorsed their religious beliefs as “atheist/agnostic” or “none/unsure” reported more anger toward God than those who reported a religious affiliation.
The findings about anger against God and atheism are fascinating, but it's just the first step. I would hope research would follow-up to figure out how atheists and agnostics can reconcile their anger against God with belief that God does not exist. Would any atheists here admit this conflict and explain how they reconcile it? They could say something like: "I am angry with God and I am in the process of proving to myself that God really doesn't exist." Or perhaps: "I am angry with God and I choose to act as if God does not exist."Silver Asiatic_{January 26, 2015
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I've always said people are atheists because they are angry with God, firstly speaking of my own experience when I was an atheist, secondly atheists, emotions are a dead give away, thirdly its really cool to know my observations are correct. :) Science says atheists don't exist, wonder how they deal with the fact that their materialism is opposed by that which they are trying to use for their argument.Andre_{January 26, 2015
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