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The “quine dilemma” of evolution

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Sorry if this post is a bit for computer programmers, anyway I trust that also the others can grasp the overall picture.

Evolutionists claim that what it takes to evolution to work is simply “a populations of replicators, random variations on them, and a competition for survival or resources”.
Today we will try to partially layout how to simulate on computer such process. First off, we need the replicators, i.e. digital programs able to self-reproduce. In informatics jargon, a computer program able to self-reproduce, i.e. to produce as output a copy of its source code is called a “quine”. Therefore in a sense a quine is a little, minimal digital “bio-cell”. You can write the code of a quine in any programming language. Also with the same language you can do that in various ways. Here I will examine a quine written in Perl language by Tushar Samant, it is but one of many examples.

Its source code is the following:

$a=’X‘; print map “\$a=’$a’; $_, q($_)”, q(print map “\$a=’$a’;$_, q($_)”)

If you have Perl installed on your computer you can easily verify that if you run this script, it prints itself on the screen. Eventually if you redirect the output to a file, such file will be a perfect copy of its generator file.

Von Neumann mathematically proved that a self-reproducing automaton must contain a symbolic description or representation of itself and a constructor (see my previous post). Also our quine contains a symbolic description of itself (the code on the right, the quoted “q(print map…)”), while the code on the left (the first “print map”) is the operation on the description (the constructor), to output the whole quine. Some say that, this way, the quine necessarily works somehow in “auto-referential” mode. (About “quines”, self-reference, automata, meta-languages and artificial intelligence I suggest reading the book by Douglas Hofstadter, “Gödel, Escher, Bach”, 1979.)

Why in the source code I have highlighted in blue color a “neutral” zone, in red color a “critical zone”? This distinction holds not only for this quine, rather for almost all quines (and in a sense even for almost all computer programs or any system in general). Random variations in the red zone destroy the self-reproducing function. Differently, most variations in the neutral zone don’t cause malfunctioning. If, for example, we change the value of the $a variable from “X” to, say, “fb_M+hF6.oia7-jj” we get a bigger script, but it continues to self-replicate.

Now, let’s imagine that we want to develop a small evolution simulator on our computer. We could set an initial number of those quines and make them self-reproduce to obtain a growing population. Eventually we could apply random variations, generation by generation, on their neutral zones. Then we have to write in our evolution simulator a “fitness function” working in this somewhat digital environment. A first simple idea could be to establish that only the bigger quines survive. However such evolution simulation would be very poor. In fact, the variations inside the digital organisms would be trivial, sure no new organization arises. Moreover the fitness function is poorly specified, because what matters is only the quantitative size of the quines, how much they are “fat” so to speak. Certainly no really different organism arise.

Therefore, if we want to test the above evolutionist claim, we could imagine a more complicated fitness function, based on the concept of predation, just a suggestion. The organisms that are somehow able to “eat” parts of other organisms are more fit to survive. They are the “predators”, while the organisms eaten are the “victims”, who necessarily die. This would be similar to what happens in nature per Darwinian selection. Also we could think of a selection based on a competition for resources.

At this point the question is: what variations are necessary to transform our initial quines into evolved predators or resource seekers? No random variation can produce such increase in organization, because, as seen above, almost all random variations in the red zone are fatal and the variations on the blue zone are neutral. However to transform our quines in predators or resource seekers is not impossible. But one has to increase the organization of the critical zone in substantial manner. New source code has to be written in the red zone. Changes in the blue zone are useless. The predation macro function needs sub-functions: movement, enemy detection, fight… Analogously, the resource seeker function needs: movement, resource detection, import of resources…

To keep our discourse simple, as an example, I modified the initial quine with a simple, very rudimental, movement sub-function (which serves to both the higher functions): now the replicator can perform a random walk on a grid with steps of 1 unit in 8 different directions. To do that I used the $p variable to store the X/Y information (where the replicator stays on the grid at a given time). The result could be something like this:

$a=’X‘;$p=q(500_500);$e=q(($x, $y) = split /_/, $p;$x+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2)); $y+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2));$p =~ s/\d+_\d+/${x}_${y}/;);eval $e;print map “\$a=’$a’; \$p=’$p’; \$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’;$_, q($_)”, q(print map ” \$a=’$a’;\$p=’$p’;\$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’; $_, q($_)”)

With this modification the automaton continues to be able to self-replicate, and — if introduced in a suitable evolution program simulator (which I have not programmed thus far) — it moves on a grid. Notice however that both the constructor and the symbolic description are changed.

All that leads us directly to what I call the “quine dilemma” of unguided evolution. If random variations are harmless or neutral (blue zone) they create no new organization. If evolution has to create complex functional novelties, new organization, it must operate in the red zone and necessarily become potentially destructive. To speak of “dilemma” here is euphemistic. This dilemma is worse than Hamletic, because de facto is a show-stopper for evolution. The quine dilemma holds in computer programming, as in biology. In fact, in the lab you can crash the cellular replication by introducing random variations in a cell. Needless to say, this dilemma has a lot to do with the experimental fact that unicellulars grown in the lab haven’t yet evolved in … frogs or butterflies (e.g. Lenski’s work).

I like to cite Larry Wall, the computer scientist who invented Perl, who sums it up best: “The potential for greater good goes right along with the potential for greater evil”. Larry said that in the context of software development, but mutatis mutandis it holds also in general, biology included. In short, no power without risk.

I said “biology included” because the objection by evolutionists might be that in biological replicators there is no “quine” problem, because the information for new organization (which random variation applies on) is decoupled from the information for construction. This claim is fully illogical because the information for new organization is the information for construction, what else. An organism is constructed according to assembly instructions. If you want a different organism you have to modify them. No decoupling is possible between instructions and organism because the latter is the direct product (bit by bit) of the former. No decoupling is possible between cause and effect.

To sum up, the initial claim that evolution needs only “a populations of replicators, random variations on them and a competition” is only an hope, because just in simple replicators it crashes against basic conceptual obstacles, one of which is indeed the “quine” dilemma.

Comments
In evolutionary algorithms, the environment and its relationship to the replicators is considered separate from the replicators.
Evolutionary algorithms are examples of Intelligent design evolution. No one knows how to model unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution. That is just another reason why the concept isn't scientific.Joe
February 4, 2015
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Zachriel continues to expose the problem with evolutionism:
You have to distinguish your hypothesis empirically from mere ignorance, something you can’t do until you, well, you know, state a testable hypothesis.
Evolutionism, ie unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution, doesn't have any testable hypotheses and relies on our ignorance. Thanks again, ZachrielJoe
February 4, 2015
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Gary S Gaulin says The problem is that none that I know of are in the ID movement I say Well good luck with that then. If that is what you want. I honestly don't wish you any ill will. I just don't get what you are trying to say. Can you not even consider the possibility that a reason your idea is being ignored by ID enthusiasts is that we find it to be mostly incoherent and completely irrelevant to the question of Intelligent Design? you say, I cannot afford more years of trying to explain it I say, I'm not asking for years. Just the minutes it takes to write a decent synopsis explaining why your project is in any way relevant. Apparently you don't have time for that either. peace PS This is not at all about your simulation I think your program is reasonably cool. I just can't connect the dots between it and ID perhaps other than an example of why machines are not intelligent.fifthmonarchyman
February 4, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman, I already found those who accept the model and theory. The model even won a superior coding award. The problem is that none that I know of are in the ID movement, and I cannot afford more years of trying to explain it to those who tell me that they cannot understand any of it at all and I need to rewrite the whole thing all over again, and again, and again, and again.Gary S. Gaulin
February 3, 2015
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Gary S. Gaulin says, it is obvious that all in biology is fully covered by only four requirements. I say, I've read your paper and I would disagree. I think there is a lot in biology that is not explained by "behaviors" possessing “sensory sensors” and "motor muscles" and "guess new memory action" and "confidence (central hedonic, homeostasis) system". I don't think you've demonstrated otherwise. I don't think you've demonstrated those things are even coherent. I'm not even sure I know what it means for all of biology to be "covered" by a "behavior" that has 4 “circuit requirements”. But I could be completely misunderstanding your point. I suppose I probably am. I guess we will never know since you are unwilling to summarize and I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say while "studying the rest of the theory". Oh well I gave it a shot. Sorry you feel my inability to begin to grasp your argument is a sign I want nothing to do with science. Good luck with with finding someone to accept your project. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 3, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman:
What is a “circuit requirement” and why is your fourfold list both necessary and comprehensive? You don’t say.
The text that I quoted is from the Introduction section explaining the illustration of the "circuit" in which all four of the "circuit requirements" are also shown algorithmically. Why the four "requirements" are necessary and comprehensive will require studying the rest of the theory where the same four requirements are explained a good number of times in relation to all levels of intelligence that the theory covers, so that it is obvious that all in biology is fully covered by only four requirements.Gary S. Gaulin
February 3, 2015
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Hey Gary G, Your quote is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here. What is a "circuit requirement" and why is your fourfold list both necessary and comprehensive? You don't say. I would say for a behavior to qualify as intelligent it should be non-algorithmic and non-random. Why are my requirements unnecessary and yours self evident? Another thing, whatever "motor muscles" and "sensory sensors" are I don't see how a behavior could possibly possess them. A behavior is what an intelligent agent exhibits. I am not a behavior I am a agent. Even if a "behavior" could possess these things you give no evidence or argument why they are necessary or sufficient for intelligence. The rest of your project is equally as confusing as this paragraph. At least from my perspective. If I overlook these things I still don't see the point. you define intelligence in such a way that It appears that you trying to explain a phenomena that does not need explaining. IMHO you need to at least layout clearly what the problem is you are trying to address. If your project is just about describing what makes the computer Watson tick you wasting your time as far as I can tell No one I know cares very much what makes Watson tick . If you were explaining what makes IBM scientists tick it might be more interesting. What you would need to show is that the intelligence in Watson is necessarily the same as the intelligence in the scientists that created it Anyway all these comments assume that I understand what you are getting at and I'm not at all sure I do. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 3, 2015
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This is one example of what fifthmonarchyman is unable to understand:
A behavior qualifies as intelligent behavior by meeting all four circuit requirements for this ability, which are: [1] body (or modeling platform) with motor muscles (proteins, electric speaker, electronic “write” to a screen) to control, [2] memory addressed by sensory sensors where each motor action and its associated confidence value are separate data elements, [3] confidence (central hedonic, homeostasis) system that increments (stored in memory) confidence value of a successful motor action else decrements the confidence value, [4] guess new memory action when associated confidence level sufficiently decreases (and if not prerandomized motor data then when first addressed). For flagella powered cells reversing motor direction can produce a tumble to a new heading direction, guess where to go. The IBM Watson system that won at Jeopardy qualifies as intelligent. Word combinations for hypotheses were guessed then tested against memory for confidence in each being a hypothesis that is true, and whether confident enough in its best answer to “push the buzzer”. The Watson platform simply had a speaker (for vocal muscles) and muscles guiding a pen was simulated by an electric powered writing device.
After several years of the same old excuses it's obvious that several more years of rewriting the theory (after already having added several illustrations algorithmically showing the above information as well as computer models showing this in code) is a waste of time on those who want nothing to do with science.Gary S. Gaulin
February 3, 2015
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Gary Gaulin says, it would be helpful for you to explain what you did understand as opposed to suggesting that you could not understand anything at all then try to get rid of me. I say, It would be helpful if you would put together a short summery of your idea. You should be able to do so in just a few minutes. I don't need details at this point just give me the highlights I'm not trying to get rid of you. I'm trying to help you out. If you don't want my advise fine. I tried. No offense but Your work appears to me to be mostly gibberish with a few sciencey words sprinkled around. That does not mean that it is gibberish it merely means that I have no entrance point to begin to tackle it. I'm not in a position to answer your questions about a theory that I don't understand. Instead of asking me those questions why don't you sit down and give me the answers along with a few elaborating sentences. Who knows your answers might be a start to a good abstract. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 3, 2015
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Fifthmonarchyman it would be helpful for you to explain what you did understand, as opposed to suggesting that you could not understand anything at all then try to get rid of me. According to the theory: How is intelligence systematically qualified? In the computer model how is intelligence detected? What is the primary mechanism responsible for the Cambrian Explosion?Gary S. Gaulin
February 3, 2015
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Gary S. Gaulin says, Regardless of how I phrase the paragraphs it will never be an easy read. I say, I have read my share of academic papers and while often pedantic I can usually wade through them with a little effort. That is not the case with your project. Are you honestly saying that your work is so beyond the intelligence of the average thinker that we will never understand it. If that is the case I'm not sure what you think "advertisement" on a public forum will gain you. If you repeatedly denigrate the efforts of others others while linking to a work that appears to be incoherent at some point folks will start to think that you are a little out of touch with reality. Trust me I know what it's like to feel you have something interesting and worth sharing and to be frustrated at what seems like the bewilderment and lack of interest from others. If I could give you a little advice it would be to step back and make at least the summary of your idea as clear as you can. Then give promoting it another try. It's a lot to ask a stranger to spend valuable time wading through something if you are not willing to spend a little time to make it understandable for him. If you do that I think you'll find that folks around here are not as stupid and uneducated and backward as we first appear. If you will spend a little time you can be more confident that when critics ignore or reject your project it won't be because of lack of time or understanding. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 2, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman:
It’s obvious (I think) that what you’ve come up with has not as of yet been shown to be relevant at all to the questions that ID folks are interested in.
I have to add that the theory is included with the ID Lab computer models. It's expected to be difficult for someone who is used to an easy read that uses metaphors and such. My purpose is to explain the scientific details that show why the premise of the Theory of Intelligent Design holds true when tested. Regardless of how I phrase the paragraphs it will never be an easy read. I also have to make sure all the right words are in the right places or else experienced scientists and programmers who study it would find the theory to be logically incoherent. That level of detail makes it even harder for someone with no experience in the given areas of science, but I can't help that. My main concern has to be that when understood the model and theory remain standing on its own scientific merit. Simply attacking another theory (as other ID literature does) might be an easy read but it's not able to stand on its own scientific merit. I have to start with a model that requires experimenting with to fully understand how it works, what it does, and what happens when intelligence is present. It's otherwise just more of the usual ID literature that the majority of experienced scientists, programmers and science teachers have no interest in.Gary S. Gaulin
February 2, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Nothing specific can be proposed while the very idea of an oracle is ruled out of bounds as somehow not science. You're more than welcome to speculate, however, you would have to distinguish empirically any proposed scientific hypothesis from mere ignorance. fifthmonarchyman: When I get some time I expect maybe perhaps to organize my thoughts Good idea.Zachriel
February 2, 2015
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Gary S. Gaulin says The problem is that I know of no better way to initially present the material I say, If I were you I'd start be composing a paragraph that explains in detail the problems you want to address and why it's important to address them. Then a paragraph that lists the reasons you feel that previous attempts have failed to adequately address those problems Finally one that explains exactly how your work addresses those problems in a better way, You need to be specific. Simply asserting that yours is the first Theory of Intelligent design is not going to cut it. It's obvious (I think) that what you've come up with has not as of yet been shown to be relevant at all to the questions that ID folks are interested in. You need to explain why it is relevant with something more than it has the words Intelligent Design in the title. That is just three paragraphs. Surely you can do that. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 2, 2015
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Fifthmonarchyman that's why I'm at UD, to explain the theory. The problem is that I know of no better way to initially present the material. I don't want it to turn into a 500 page book that will take you a month to get through so I kept it as brief and to the point as possible, which maybe causes another problem that is caused by my not knowing where others need more info. I'm good in this area of science but I'm not a professional writer, which is why I admit to needing help writing up this project! When I read what I wrote it's as clear and scientifically precise as I can make it, but since I'm not you I can't see where you are having trouble. It's also something that could easily become a four+ year college subject but I know you don't want to get into that much detail. How to cover the most important detail in around 50 pages is a very frustrating problem for me. Any ideas to help overcome this are very welcomed.Gary S. Gaulin
February 1, 2015
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Gary S. Gaulin says, I now wonder whether fifthmonarchyman is a culprit, or just another victim of the sloppy science that the Discovery Institute has become famous for. I say, I can assure you I'm not a victim of the Discovery Institute. I don't pay them much mind whatsoever. I am totally confused by your "theory" however. Granted I'm pretty slow but I can't make heads or tails of it for the most part. If you want folks like me to look at it. I would suggest you go back and see if you could express yourself with a little more clarity peacefifthmonarchyman
February 1, 2015
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Zac says, So someone on the Internet is standing in your way from unlocking the secrets of the universe! I say, Who said anything about unlocking the secrets of science? I have a "game" that I feel is interesting and has something to say about the limits of algorithms like evolution. I'm trying to work through the implications that is all. I'm curious what others who don't share my worldview would think about the conclusions I'm drawing and predictions that flow from those conclusions. That is all this discussion is about. When I get some time I expect maybe perhaps to organize my thoughts and pass then off to someone who is in a position to tell me how all wet I am. If you are looking to unlock the "secrets of science" in one fell swoop you are wasting your time with me. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 1, 2015
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And Planet Source Code is back online! Both of the above links are working again. That's sure a relief..Gary S. Gaulin
February 1, 2015
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Excellent point Zachriel:
You have to distinguish your hypothesis empirically from mere ignorance, something you can’t do until you, well, you know, state a testable hypothesis.
I think this is a good time to repost a few links so that hopefully at least some of the adults at UD might bother to learn what 3-6 year old US children learn by watching educational TV: Buddy has a hypothesis - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0CGhy6cNJE Dinosaur Train. A Colorful Hypothesis Activity | PBS Parents http://www.pbs.org/parents/dinosaurtrain/activities/a-colorful-hypothesis/ “What’s a hypothesis?” https://tosciencewithlove.wordpress.com/tag/dinosaur-train/ The good news is that thanks to the work of creative educators it's getting harder to sell the nonsense that is still being promoting to the general public. I now wonder whether fifthmonarchyman is a culprit, or just another victim of the sloppy science that the Discovery Institute has become famous for.Gary S. Gaulin
February 1, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: The “you” in this case is Alan Turing who defined the term. Turing's oracle is not a machine. However, in mathematics, an oracle can be of any complexity class. It can even have a random output. We provided a standard use of the term from Dembski. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine If you want to specify that the oracle you have in mind can't be a machine, that's fine, but you can't simply say it has to be so just because you name it an oracle. fifthmonarchyman: Nothing specific can be proposed while the very idea of an oracle is ruled out of bounds as somehow not science. So someone on the Internet is standing in your way from unlocking the secrets of the universe! We told you the scientific requirements. You have to distinguish your hypothesis empirically from mere ignorance, something you can't do until you, well, you know, state a testable hypothesis.Zachriel
February 1, 2015
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Note: The entire Planet Source Code site unexpectedly went offline soon after I posted the above links. If they did not work for you then please give PSC time to get everything back online again. This has happened before. Sorry for the inconvenience.Gary S. Gaulin
January 31, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman:
Apparently you don’t get what is trying to be explained in ID. Hint it’s not intelligence itself.
I am very aware of the theory having been premised to explain how our Creator (Allah, God, etc.) works. In fact I'm the only one who has had such a model (theory included) online for experimenters to experiment with. This was the first ID model, from 2011. Reading the comments to it will explain that its 5 globe rating was voted down by the usual protesters (for political not scientific reasons): http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/ShowCode.asp?txtCodeId=74175&lngWId=1 And more: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/BrowseCategoryOrSearchResults.asp?txtCriteria=Gary+Gaulin&lngWId=1 The only thing you would accomplish by submitting a model and theory that does not exist to Planet Source Code is waste your time and theirs (having to reject it). The Theory of Intelligent Design already exists. But it's not presented at UD or is available from the Discovery Institute. Therefore the game (of pretending to have a model and theory) is already over. Checkmate...Gary S. Gaulin
January 31, 2015
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Zac said, So when someone wants to explore your idea, you say no, you won’t go there. I say, The "you" in this case is Alan Turing who defined the term. You say You haven’t proposed anything yet. I say, Nothing specific can be proposed while the very idea of an oracle is ruled out of bounds as somehow not science. That is the point you choose to exclude for purely metaphysical reasons the only idea that will ever yield a complete theory. you say, Scientific theories are always incomplete, whether algorithmic or not. I say We will never get to proposals till that metaphysical muddle in your thinking is cleared up. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 31, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: You have already acknowledged that an algorithmic theory is necessarily incomplete. Scientific theories are always incomplete, whether algorithmic or not. fifthmonarchyman: The addition of the oracle makes the “theory of evolution” complete therefore the oracle must be non-algorithmic The addition of a ill-defined oracle doesn't make a theory complete. You provided an example, the axiom of random mutation in neo-Darwinian theory. fifthmonarchyman: We will not go any further into the nature of this oracle than to say that it cannot be a machine. So when someone wants to explore your idea, you say no, you won't go there. fifthmonarchyman: Infinity verses finitude is an important topic I’d like to explore sometime with someone who is willing to look at this objectively So when someone wants to explore your idea, you say no, you won't go there. fifthmonarchyman: When you exclude the oracle you are left with a theory with less explanatory power. It is as simple as that You haven't proposed anything yet.Zachriel
January 31, 2015
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Hey Zac, in the interest of time and clarity I'm going to be very selective in my responses to you here. Just addressing things that may not have been sufficiently addressed before. If a lurker feels that I am missing something I will hope they point it out to me zac says What makes you think the oracle is non-algorithmic? I say, Isn't it obvious? You have already acknowledged that an algorithmic theory is necessarily incomplete. The addition of the oracle makes the "theory of evolution" complete therefore the oracle must be non-algorithmic Then there is this----- quote: We will not go any further into the nature of this oracle than to say that it cannot be a machine. end quote: Alan Turing you say, Gödel’s theory does not apply to finite sets. I say, Infinity verses finitude is an important topic I'd like to explore sometime with someone who is willing to look at this objectively for now this should be sufficient from here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ quote: Any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of elementary arithmetic can be carried out is incomplete; i.e., there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F end quote: you say, In any case, you don’t necessarily have to take the unknown as a given. For instance, the continuum hypothesis can be taken as either true or false with equal consistency. I say, And you can include or exclude the Oracle with equal consistency. It's not a question of consistency it's a question of utility. When you exclude the oracle you are left with a theory with less explanatory power. It is as simple as that peacefifthmonarchyman
January 31, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: A complete theory of how my cheese burger was made does not have to explain the dreams of the fry cook. It’s not a complete theory if an *explanatory entity* is outside of investigation. A recipe is not a scientific theory. fifthmonarchyman: Remember Gould’s Drunkard’s walk. We could hypothesize that that all things being equal the Oracle tends to push the drunk toward the curb or visa versa. You can speculate all you want, but a hypothesis has to have testable entailments. fifthmonarchyman: That the oracle is a black box is itself a necessary part of an explanation. You can’t explain the Oracle with out invalidating the explanation it facilitates. You haven't explained how that differs from simple ignorance. You can always section off the unknown, say it’s an oracle, and call it a day, but it’s scientifically sterile. fifthmonarchyman: Think of it as an axiom. like all axioms it can’t be described within the system it describes but is instead must be taken as a given. This is simply Godel’s incompleteness theorem. Gödel's theory does not apply to finite sets. In any case, you don't necessarily have to take the unknown as a given. For instance, the continuum hypothesis can be taken as either true or false with equal consistency. fifthmonarchyman: An axiom of the theory of evolution is that random variation occurs. There is no requirement that the inner-workings of randomness in a deterministic universe be explained before the theory of evolution can progress. We can observe mutations, and can show that they are random with respect to fitness, so the axiom is empirically supported. Furthermore, we can investigate the process of mutation to determine its causes. fifthmonarchyman: You can scientifically test whether the addition of an Oracle increases the explanatory power of “evolution” and you can scientifically probe the characteristics of the Oracle. Well, we're waiting. fifthmonarchyman: Prohibition of non-algorithmic entities is not science it’s merely materialistic metaphysics. What makes you think the oracle is non-algorithmic?Zachriel
January 31, 2015
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Gary S. Gaulin says, Then explain how the system you call an “oracle” works. I say, That the oracle is a black box is itself a necessary part of an explanation. You can't explain the Oracle with out invalidating the explanation it facilitates. Think of it as an axiom. like all axioms it can't be described within the system it describes but is instead must be taken as a given. This is simply Godel's incompleteness theorem. It is high time that the science made peace with this mathematical reality. There will always be things that are necessarily true but must remain unexplained. You say, If what you are attempting to ultimately explain is “evolution” then the logical name of your proposed theory would be something like “Oracle Theory of Evolution” ....not the proposed “Theory of Intelligent Design” I say, Apparently you don't get what is trying to be explained in ID. Hint it's not intelligence itself. let me try and help you out The theory of "evolution" is offered as an explanation of the panorama of life not as an explanation of change. change is treated a given An axiom of the theory of evolution is that random variation occurs. There is no requirement that the inner-workings of randomness in a deterministic universe be explained before the theory of evolution can progress. The theory simply specifies that variation is random with respect to fitness as a starting point and moves on to the implications of that axiom. All I'm doing is introducing another axiom that increases the explanatory power of the theory. You say A scientific hypothesis is an idea you can scientifically test. A philosophical hypothesis is an idea you can philosophically test, I say That is why the Oracle idea is a scientific hypothesis and not a philosophical one. You can scientifically test whether the addition of an Oracle increases the explanatory power of "evolution" and you can scientifically probe the characteristics of the Oracle. You say, but even where the hypothesis holds true after you tested it that does not make it a scientific hypothesis or a theory I say, Again with the "it's not science unless it's algorithmic" meme. Prohibition of non-algorithmic entities is not science it's merely materialistic metaphysics. You are entitled to your own metaphysics but don't confuse them with science peacefifthmonarchyman
January 31, 2015
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Also, if what you are attempting to ultimately explain is "evolution" then the logical name of your proposed theory would be something like "Oracle Theory of Evolution" or "Oracle Evolutionary Theory" but not the proposed "Theory of Intelligent Design" due to its premise specifically requiring you to explain how "intelligent cause" works. And this statement is a philosophical/religious "hypothesis" (not theory):
The oracle helps to explain how something works in this case “evolution”.
A scientific hypothesis is an idea you can scientifically test. A philosophical hypothesis is an idea you can philosophically test, but even where the hypothesis holds true after you tested it that does not make it a scientific hypothesis or a theory.Gary S. Gaulin
January 30, 2015
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The oracle helps to explain how something works in this case “evolution”.
Then explain how the system you call an "oracle" works.Gary S. Gaulin
January 30, 2015
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Gary S. Gaulin says A scientific theory explains how something works. I say. The oracle helps to explain how something works in this case "evolution". You are confusing explaining something with explaining everything. A Scientific Theory does not require us to explain everything. The problem arises when folks choose to resist explaining anything completely unless they can explain everything. That is not science that is simply materialistic metaphysics. you say, Therefore shrugging of shoulders (instead of explaining how something works) only explains why they have no scientific theory. I say, It's the other side who is shrugging their shoulders on this one. What do you think is going on when they say no complete theory is possible peacefifthmonarchyman
January 30, 2015
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