Archaeologists believe they found the oldest Hebrew text in Israel – including the name of God

_{Eric Hedin

June 27, 2022

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Correspondent Tal Heinrich writes at ALL ISRAEL NEWS:

The potentially history-changing lead tablet that was found at Mount Ebal may provide proof that the Israelites were literate when they entered the Holy Land.

The earliest Hebrew text to date may have been discovered in ancient Israel, according to archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling and a team of international scholars.

The text appears to be an old curse inscribed with 40 Hebrew letters on a lead tablet. The finding, which could be one of the greatest archaeological discoveries ever, was announced at a press conference on Thursday in Houston, Texas.

Archaeological site at Mount Ebal, February 15, 2021. (Photo: Shomrim Al Hanetzach)

The proto-alphabetic Hebrew text was unearthed in December 2019 during excavations on Mount Ebal. Located near biblical Shechem – the modern-day Palestinian city of Nablus – the mountain is known from Deuteronomy 11:29 as a place of curses. It is believed to be the site where Joshua built an altar to the Lord, described in Joshua 8:31 as “an altar of unhewn stones, upon which no man had lifted up any iron.”

The roughly 2×2 centimeters folded-lead curse tablet includes the acronym of God, YHVH, as well as the Hebrew word arur, which means “cursed.” Archaeologists believe it dates to the Late Bronze Age (circa 1,200 BC), based on analysis of the scans and lead analysis of the artifact.
According to the Times of Israel, the discovery would be the first attested use of the name of God in the Land of Israel. This may also reveal that Israelite literacy has been evident centuries before previously proven. If the date is verified, it means the Israelites were literate when they entered the Holy Land and therefore could have written the Bible since some of the events documented took place.

“This is a text you find only every 1,000 years,” Haifa University Prof. Gershon Galil told the Times of Israel. Galil helped decipher the hidden internal text of the folded lead tablet based on high-tech scans conducted by the academy. The advanced technology was used in order to avoid destroying the tablet when trying to open it.
All Israel News

Comments

JVL, the issue is, could blind chance and mechanical necessity create a complex digital, symbolic communication system. The answer is, maximally implausible. KFkairosfocus_{June 28, 2022
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. JVL, You may have lost your place in the conversation. You had stepped into an exchange between Fred and BA, and were attempting to offer support to Fred’s claim. You asked a question and were given the answer. You can either refute it or not.
Is there any other way of setting up a communication system?
Irrelevant to the fact.
In other words: are the similarities between human languages and DNA down to that any representational system has to match those basic criteria?
Irrelevant to the fact.Upright BiPed_{June 28, 2022
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Upright BiPed: Both written language/mathematics and the gene system use a finite set of physical symbol tokens to communicate open-ended meaning. These tokens are established by a set of interpretive constraints that establish the rate-independent relationships between the tokens and their referents, using a spatial orientation of objects within each token to differentiate one referent from another. These are the only two systems like this known to the physical sciences. Is there any other way of setting up a communication system? In other words: are the similarities between human languages and DNA down to that any representational system has to match those basic criteria? By the way: is there a reason that you are parachuting into a conversation I was having with Bornagain77? Is there a reason that Bornagain77 can't continue the argument himself?JVL_{June 28, 2022
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.
Okay, spell out the overlap then
Okay. Both written language/mathematics and the gene system use a finite set of physical symbol tokens to communicate open-ended meaning. These tokens are established by a set of interpretive constraints that establish the rate-independent relationships between the tokens and their referents, using a spatial orientation of objects within each token to differentiate one referent from another. These are the only two systems like this known to the physical sciences. You already know all this; it is well-documented in the physics literature. While I have you on the phone, can you explain why you rely on an ad hoc double-standard to deny the design inference:
JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available. (…) And after you are asked “Then who is the designer in your signal from space”, suddenly realizing that you cannot answer that question without clearly demonstrating the double-standard in your reasoning, you reply: JVL: There isn’t one. (thud)
Upright BiPed_{June 28, 2022
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Fred: In fact, show me where symbolism is involved in machine code. The concept is in your head, not in the workings of the computer. The computer code was invented by a human and has a predictable result in the computer, and it's the predictable result in the computer that makes the code/symbol useful to the human. It seems that you are confused about the code/symbol and the second level label that humans might give the predictable result beyond the code/symbol itself. The ATP synthase protein doesn't know anything about the term "ATP synthase." But the codes in the DNA that end up producing ATP synthase are predictible codes for the constructions of what we label "ATP synthase." (Humans are capable of altering existing symbols/codes in the DNA, and in principle, will be capable of programming brand new ones.) "Code" is a correct term to use for the codons in DNA because they are symbolic in the sense that their physical arrangement and properties are mere information to the ribosomes that actually build the resulting proteins, and the resulting shape/function of the protein. You're confusing symbols/codes with labels that humans may give them. Code: Definition 2b: A system of symbols and rules that serve as instructions for a computer. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/codePaxx_{June 28, 2022
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ronvanwegen, The actual news is about an archeological find about one certain historical god among many in history, the god of Israel. Who the "real god" is, if there is any, is beyond the scope of the archeological find.Paxx_{June 28, 2022
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The Human Genome Sequence is now complete. https://www.genome.gov/about-nhgri/Director/genomics-landscape/april-7-2022-the-human-genome-sequence-is-now-completerelatd_{June 28, 2022
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Scientists' knowledge about genetic language is next to none. DNA is The Instruction Manual of life but scientists need The Dictionary of life in order to decode The Instruction Manual.Sandy_{June 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: I have much better things to do than play ring around the posies with an irrational troll. I'll choose to interpret that as: you can't actually demonstrate the overlap you claim exists between DNA and human languages. In fact I know that to be the case because you always have plenty of time to post link after link after link of things you think support your view so walking away means you haven't got anything. You really should learn that not everyone on this site is just going to swallow all the copy-and-paste logic you use. Sometimes you actually have to show a real understanding of the material you link to. If you don't then you just look foolish. Anyway, you made a claim and, as ET would put it, you choked on it.JVL_{June 28, 2022
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JVL, I have much better things to do than play ring around the posies with an irrational troll.bornagain77_{June 28, 2022
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Quantum computers and quantum chips exist right now. https://www.ibm.com/quantumrelatd_{June 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: Yes, I missed the elementary Venn diagram which shows nothing beyond the statement that classical information is a subset of quantum information. It presents nothing beyond that. Look, can you explain the overlap between human languages and DNA using the encodings you linked to or not? That's the issue, not your interpretation of quantum entanglement. You made a claim now please back it up by explaining your reasoning.JVL_{June 28, 2022
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JVL, "The Venn diagram of classical/digital information? A subset within the Venn diagram of quantum information? Really? Why don’t you show us these Venn diagrams so we can get a better idea of what you’re talking about." And this shows just how irrational JVL is, I provided the Venn diagram of classical information being a subset of quantum information.
Classical Information is a subset of Quantum information – illustration https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/images/figure1.gif below that illustration they have this caption, “Figure 1: The well-established theory of classical information and computation is actually a subset of a much larger topic, the emerging theory of quantum information and computation.”
And again, If you want to argue with Charles Bennett, have at it. Seeing that you are an atheistic troll on a blog and that he is an accomplished scientist with several notable breakthroughs under his belt, my money is certainly on him.
Information is Quantum – Charles Bennett – video 39:30 minute mark: “Entanglement is ubiquitous: Almost every interaction between two systems creates entanglement between them… Most systems in nature… interact so strongly with the environment as to become entangled with it almost immediately.”… 44:00 minute mark: “A classical communications channel is a quantum communication channel with an eavesdropper (maybe only the environment)… A classical computer is a quantum computer handicapped by having eavesdroppers on all its wires.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/philip-cunningham-offers-information-is-quantum/
Moreover, besides storing human language on DNA, genetic information has been transferred to computers, manipulated, and then reinserted back into an organism. See Venter's work.bornagain77_{June 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: your irrational denial to the contrary does not refute the fact that human language clearly has an overlap with the language in DNA in that it was possible to store a, jaw-dropping, massive amount of human language where DNA language normally resides. Well, spell out the overlap for us please. You might want to cite the encoding system used to store all that data. And show how the encoding capitalises on this overlap. That, in of itself, clearly refutes FH’s grand and sweeping claim that there is no overlap whatsoever. Not if your vague interpretation is incorrect. So you'd best spell out exactly what is the overlap you claim exists. And if you really want to get technical, both human language and the sequential information in DNA are both to be considered subsets within the Venn diagram of classical/digital information. And classical/digital information is to be considered a subset within the Venn diagram of quantum information. The Venn diagram of classical/digital information? A subset within the Venn diagram of quantum information? Really? Why don't you show us these Venn diagrams so we can get a better idea of what you're talking about. Oh, this is one of the Venn diagrams you are referring to? https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/images/figure1.gif Too funny. Why did they even bother with the diagram?JVL_{June 28, 2022
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Bornagain77 at 34, Well said. Well presented. At the molecular level, reactions are sub-atomic, meaning they operate at the quantum level. Starting at the quantum level, they must bridge to the macro level and that involves 'classical information.' Somehow, I'm thinking this system did not appear by accident.relatd_{June 28, 2022
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Whatever JVL, your irrational denial to the contrary does not refute the fact that human language clearly has an overlap with the language in DNA in that it was possible to store a, jaw-dropping, massive amount of human language where DNA language normally resides. That, in of itself, clearly refutes FH's grand and sweeping claim that there is no overlap whatsoever. And if you really want to get technical, both human language and the sequential information in DNA are both to be considered subsets within the Venn diagram of classical/digital information. And classical/digital information is to be considered a subset within the Venn diagram of quantum information. In the following site entitled “Quantum Information Science”, a site where Charles Bennett, (of quantum teleportation and reversible computation fame), himself is on the steering committee,
Quantum Information Science Steering Committee C. H. Bennett IBM D. P. DiVincenzo IBM N. Gershenfeld MIT H. M. Gibbs University of Arizona H. J. Kimble Caltech J. Preskill Caltech U. V. Vazirani UC/Berkeley D. J. Wineland NIST C. Yao Princeton University https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/nsf00101.htm
On that site, they have this illustration showing classical information to be a subset of quantum information
Classical Information is a subset of Quantum information – illustration https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/images/figure1.gif below that illustration they have this caption, “Figure 1: The well-established theory of classical information and computation is actually a subset of a much larger topic, the emerging theory of quantum information and computation.”
If you want to argue with Charles Bennett, have at it. Seeing that you are an atheistic troll on a blog and that he is an accomplished scientist with several notable breakthroughs under his belt, my money is certainly on him.
Information is Quantum – Charles Bennett – video 39:30 minute mark: “Entanglement is ubiquitous: Almost every interaction between two systems creates entanglement between them… Most systems in nature… interact so strongly with the environment as to become entangled with it almost immediately.”… 44:00 minute mark: “A classical communications channel is a quantum communication channel with an eavesdropper (maybe only the environment)… A classical computer is a quantum computer handicapped by having eavesdroppers on all its wires.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/philip-cunningham-offers-information-is-quantum/
Of related note: In the following video, at the 22:20 minute mark, Dr Rieper shows why the high temperatures of biological systems do not prevent DNA from having quantum entanglement and then at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper goes on to remark that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it.
“What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.” Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176
bornagain77_{June 28, 2022
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SA at 29, Look at it this way. Your computer was designed and built by accident, by nobody.relatd_{June 28, 2022
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FH at 21, When you write that book, send it to some Biologists.relatd_{June 28, 2022
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FH at 19, That's fiction. Computers are designed to accept symbols created/designed by humans.relatd_{June 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: then encoding human language where DNA language normally resides would simply have been completely impossible. Not at all. As I've already explained you can do it with sequences of any objects or symbols. How about a pebble, a blade of grass, a rose petal and a twig. How many ways can you come up with sequences of three of those allowing repeats? Sixty-four. Then make up a code: twig, twig, twig make that 'a'; twig, twig, pebble make that 'b', etc. Just make it up. Take a Shakespeare play, for each letter lay out a sequence of pebbles and grass and petals and twigs according to the arbitrary code you picked. Not very efficient and a bugger to store but it's the same basic principle. The objects you picked have nothing to do with English. Or any other language. They're just things you can arrange into sequences with repeats. But alas, there definitely is an overlap between human language and DNA language, hence it was possible to encode a jaw-dropingly massive amount of human language onto DNA. DNA is made up of molecules, the molecules have nothing to do with any human language. Biologically certain sequences of those molecules are mapped to certain other molecules but, again, nothing to do with human languages. It ain’t rocket science Einstein! I agree but apparently you didn't understand my examples. Let me ask you: did you bother to find out how the encoding was done? FH made a grand and sweeping claim about “no overlap” whatsoever between human and DNA language which is now shown empirically to simply not be true. Okay, spell out the overlap then.JVL_{June 28, 2022
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FH
Given RNA World as precursor, starting with one amino acid and a promiscuous system, sequential evolution of adding additional aminoacids and tRNA synthetases becomes conceivable.
This has been your thesis but you're giving too much power to trial-and-error as a mechanism for building a code sequence.Silver Asiatic_{June 28, 2022
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JVL, in spite of your attempt to hand-wave it off as no consequence, if, as FH holds, “There is no overlap between human language and DNA language. None.”, then encoding human language where DNA language normally resides would simply have been completely impossible. But alas, there definitely is an overlap between human language and DNA language, hence it was possible to encode a jaw-dropping massive amount of human language onto DNA. FH made a grand and sweeping claim about "no overlap" whatsoever between human and DNA language which is now shown empirically to simply not be true. It ain't rocket science Einstein!bornagain77_{June 28, 2022
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Bornagain77: So please do tell us FH, if there truly is “no overlap between human language and DNA language. None”, then how in blue blazes were the following, (jaw-dropping), experiments even remotely possible? Someone picked different sequences of DNA bases to represent different letters and symbols of a language. You could do it with any four element system. You could use numbers or fruits or types of trees. For example: Take the digits 1, 2, 3, and 4. How many different three digit sequences can you make if you allow repeats? You have four choices for the first digit, four choices for the second digit, and four choices for the third digit. Four times four times four equals sixty-four different three digit sequences. Sixty-four different sequences is plenty to use to represent all the letters and many of the symbols used in English. Take a novel, convert all the letters and symbols in the novel into their corresponding three digit sequences and store the result. The digits and the digit sequences have nothing to do with the English language. Someone just arbitrary picked a correspondence. Someone else could have picked a different correspondence. Same with DNA base pairs. Four bases, grouped in sequences of three, you've got sixty-four different sequences possible. Pick one sequence to stand for 'a', another sequence to stand for 'b' and so on. The sequences have nothing to do with the English language, they're just sequences of molecules. That kind of encoding isn't the most efficient method. Consider something like Morse code, another encoding of the letters of English this time as combinations of dots and dashes. Common letters are represented by fewer dots and dashes which means less overall storage. You could pick different sequences to stand for whole words or even common phrases. If you increased the sequence length to four you'd have two hundred and fifty-six different sequences. Allowing for variable length sequences adds to the available representations. Regardless, picking arbitrary combinations of some things as representations of letters or words or even phrases in a language like English doesn't mean the things have anything to do with English or any language. You're not using the things for their human given names or representations; you're arbitrarily picking combinations to represent parts of a language. The genetic 'code' is a different encoding system of three-long sequences of DNA bases. Arbitrary or not it has nothing to do with English either.JVL_{June 28, 2022
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As someone who is currently studying archaeology, I can assure you, this find has enormous implications, not only in terms of our understandings of Israelite beliefs (e.g., reaffirming long held biblical traditions), but that the idea of the curse tablet, as a means of revenge, is far older than previously recognized. In fact, one could now argue that the curse tablet has its origins in ancient Israeli, not Ancient Greece. A truly extraordinary find.KRock_{June 28, 2022
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PS, the assembled AAs with further processing form the proteins that are cellular workhorses, including in the metabolic network. Again, an objection of needless hyperskepticism on matters that are generally uncontroversial.kairosfocus_{June 28, 2022
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FH, that universal tool tip is an aspect of the drexler assembler. Absent the full set of 20 or so tRNAs no one tRNA is useful, we need an alphabet to compose messages and contingency is pivotal to an alphabet. Your attempted gotcha fails. KFkairosfocus_{June 28, 2022
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FH, the glyphs are artifacts that represent the coded information, thus there is an embedding in the machine code and at lower layer in the actual hardware; obviously, the same can be put in ink on a page, though I would not trust an OCR system to read text and then give assembly code. Back in the day, some of the Apollo code was hand compiled as machine compilers were not then sufficiently trustworthy. To give an idea, at the next level up from machine code, assembly language represents machine code in a mnemonic, somewhat human readable form, ADD A, B, Add contents of accumulator registers A and B using the implied arithmetic and logic unit, storing the result in an implied register and tripping implied flags in a flag bit register etc. Does anyone here remember HINZVC? Then, we see that a very good definition of a computer's design, its architecture [and that is the term], is the assembly language view of the computer. None of this is controversial, but you are acting as though it is dubious as it manifestly leads where you do not wish to go. KFkairosfocus_{June 28, 2022
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Fred Hickson at 13 makes the bold, and utterly fallacious, claim, "There is no overlap between human language and DNA language. None." So please do tell us FH, if there truly is "no overlap between human language and DNA language. None", then how in blue blazes were the following, (jaw-dropping), experiments even remotely possible?
Harvard cracks DNA storage, crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram - Sebastian Anthony - August 17, 2012 Excerpt: A bioengineer and geneticist at Harvard’s Wyss Institute have successfully stored 5.5 petabits of data — around 700 terabytes — in a single gram of DNA, smashing the previous DNA data density record by a thousand times.,,, Just think about it for a moment: One gram of DNA can store 700 terabytes of data. That’s 14,000 50-gigabyte Blu-ray discs… in a droplet of DNA that would fit on the tip of your pinky. To store the same kind of data on hard drives — the densest storage medium in use today — you’d need 233 3TB drives, weighing a total of 151 kilos. In Church and Kosuri’s case, they have successfully stored around 700 kilobytes of data in DNA — Church’s latest book, in fact — and proceeded to make 70 billion copies (which they claim, jokingly, makes it the best-selling book of all time!) totaling 44 petabytes of data stored. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134672-harvard-cracks-dna-storage-crams-700-terabytes-of-data-into-a-single-gram? Researchers storing information securely in DNA - July 11, 2016 Excerpt: Bachand was inspired by the recording of all of Shakespeare's sonnets into 2.5 million base pairs of DNA—about half the genome of the tiny E. coli bacterium. Using this method, the group at the European Bioinformatics Institute could theoretically store 2.2 petabytes of information—200 times the printed material in the Library of Congress—in one gram of DNA. http://phys.org/news/2016-07-dna.html Scientists Have Stored a Movie, a Computer OS, and an Amazon Gift Card in a Single Speck of DNA "The highest-density data-storage device ever created." - Peter Dockrill - 7 Mar 2017 Excerpt: In turn, Erlich and fellow researcher Dina Zielinski from the New York Genome Centre now say their own coding strategy is 100 times more efficient than the 2012 standard, and capable of recording 215 petabytes of data on a single gram of DNA. For context, just 1 petabyte is equivalent to 13.3 years' worth of high-definition video, so if you feel like glancing disdainfully at the external hard drive on your computer desk right now, we won't judge. http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-stored-a-movie-a-computer-os-and-an-amazon-gift-card-in-a-single-speck-of-dna
And again, "no serious biologist post-Watson and Crick has denied that DNA and RNA contain functional information expressed in a digital form — information that directs the construction of functional proteins (and editing of RNA molecules).
Denying the Signature: Functional Information Is the Fact to Be Explained Stephen C. Meyer - November 19, 2015 Excerpt: As my colleague Casey Luskin has established, no serious biologist post-Watson and Crick has denied that DNA and RNA contain functional information expressed in a digital form — information that directs the construction of functional proteins (and editing of RNA molecules). Thus, contra Bishop and O’Connor, my characterization of DNA and RNA as molecules that store functional or specified information is not even remotely controversial within mainstream biology. https://evolutionnews.org/2015/11/denying_the_sig_2/
In short, FH is denying reality, which is par for the course for Darwinists. To wit:
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris, Coyne), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. the illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who also must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the hopelessness of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is simply too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must also hold beauty itself to be illusory (Darwin). Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,,
It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, indeed more antagonistic to reality itself, than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77_{June 28, 2022
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...chemically any AA is compatible with any tRNA...
Bingo. The ancestral situation. Hence my "One!"answer to UB. Given RNA World as precursor, starting with one amino acid and a promiscuous system, sequential evolution of adding additional aminoacids and tRNA synthetases becomes conceivable.Fred Hickson_{June 28, 2022
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PPS, there is no physical correlation between certain sounds and particular meanings, or between glyphs on paper or screen etc and meanings, symbolism is an uncontroversial part of natural -- not "human" [computer languages, too are human languages] -- languages. All of this is commonplace, your objections come across as stilted.kairosfocus_{June 28, 2022
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