Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Logic & First Principles, 20: What is law?

Categories
Agitprop
Control vs Anarchy
Defending our Civilization
Ethics
Laws
Logic and Reason
rhetoric
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

A good first step to understanding the ongoing failure of our civilisation is to contrast the common, positive law view of law summarised by Wikipedia (as a handy point of reference):

Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior. It has been defined both as “the Science of Justice” and “the Art of Justice”. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state. State-enforced laws can be made by a collective legislature or by a single legislator, resulting in statutes, by the executive through decrees and regulations, or established by judges through precedent, normally in common law jurisdictions . . .

. . . with Cicero’s summary of received classical views in de Legibus, c. 50 BC:

“Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones. They think, too, that the Greek name for law (NOMOS), which is derived from NEMO, to distribute, implies the very nature of the thing, that is, to give every man his due. [–> this implies a definition of justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] For my part, I imagine that the moral essence of law is better expressed by its Latin name, (lex), which conveys the idea of selection or discrimination. According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans, an equitable discrimination between good and evil.
The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

Obviously, we cannot tell truth by the calendar or clock, but by what is sound. The first of these approaches is largely about an exercise in state power, justice is almost a footnote, a disputable matter of definition. The latter, we can summarise as highest reason regarding duty and justice (i.e. the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities) for the individual and the community. Where, the first known lawful duties of the rational, responsible individual are to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, fairness and justice.

That is, the civil peace of justice must be central, not the raw exercise of rule making power. Thus, we see how law and primary, generally known duties of moral character are inextricably intertwined, tracing to our morally governed nature. Where also, due force is that which defends the civil peace of justice with proportionate means, enforcing what is lawful. Legitimate power is protective and regulated by rational and responsible principles of justice, it is not primary.

Why is such a distinction important?

Simple: unless sound reasoning i/l/o responsible, rational duty to justice is central (and so also the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities), we are establishing a system of power imposition under colour of law. That is, law becomes whatever some centre of power finds it advantageous and convenient to impose and back by force. This then reduces law to precisely what Plato warned against in describing the radical materialists of his day in The Laws, Bk X c. 360 BC:

[The materialistic sophists hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might . . . . these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others . . .

For, if the root of nature is an arbitrary, evolving material process, there is no basis for ought, save power. The door to nihilism lies open.

The famous second paragraph of the 1776 US Declaration of Independence brings the matter to a focus:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Here, we see that law is traced to the Just Creator, the source of reality who has made man as a rational, responsible, morally governed creature. One who holds “unalienable Rights,” binding moral claims to be respected due to one’s inherent dignity and status as a human being made in God’s image. As a social creature who thrives best in community (and, community founded on sound family), that leads to the need for rules of justice and good order, thus government. The just powers of government are circumscribed by general consent informed by the in-built laws of our evident nature. Where, patently, this is not “right-wing, Christofascist, theocratic tyranny” — let us lay that needless, slanderous strawman to rest.

In that context, prudence acts to address government gone sufficiently bad that resists remonstrance and calls for reformation:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

In short, there comes a point where governments for cause lose their legitimacy: they are not merely incompetent but have become enemies of the civil peace of justice through abuse and usurpation. At that point, acting through existing or emerging representatives, the people have a collective right to replace government that has gone bad. This is of course a main function of the general election, a peaceful means of replacement.

This then allows us to refocus our understanding of law, that it is indeed a system of rules that are enforced and backed by sanctions. However, such must reflect also, the prime directive of justice, thus the innate law of our morally governed nature. Law that starts with duties to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, fairness/justice etc. Absent such integral safeguards, power and will to power acting under colour of law will pervert justice and reduce citizens to serfs.

(And one obvious case is that it is no duty of the state to impose that evolutionary materialistic scientism is the de facto established ideology and religion-substitute, able to use force to block any challenge, including in institutions of science and those of education. Truth and right reason backed by the prudence that recognises how often scientific schools of thought change, would urge restraint. Dover et al, are failures of just law. Similarly, the acts under colour of law that have enabled the ongoing holocaust of our living posterity in the womb are manifestly lawless. The state’s powers are not the final judges of justice, they are accountable before the bar of truth, right reason and the right.)

To restore our civilisation to soundness, we have to soundly reform our understanding of law. A tough challenge, given the dominance of evolutionary materialistic scientism, and one has the impression that time is beginning to run out: Mene, mene, tekel, parsin. END

PS: I should pause to draw out a few notes on the implications of moral government of our inner life and linked behaviour. For, undeniably, we know that we have duties to the truth, right reason, prudence, good and sound conscience, fairness and justice.

If one would deny or dismiss this, let him or her ponder why s/he urges us to correct our errors of thought. In short, demonstrably undeniable.

From this, we see that insofar as law is rational and responsible (again hard to deny) it cannot be severed from the moral domain. In short the notion that we cannot legislate morality is fallacious. It is better to say that absent a critical mass of support, laws on the books are unenforceable.

We must then address the IS-OUGHT gap, in a post-Hume world, where only at the root of reality can such be bridged, on pain of ungrounded ought. That is, reasoning IS, thus IS, then poof-magic, OUGHT. Oughtness must be at the root of reality or else it is nowhere (other than as a grand delusion).

We thus need to hold that the root of reality is such that it inherently is good and thus grounds ought as reflecting that ultimate goodness. From this, law in seeking to support and defend the civil peace of justice must recognise such a root of reality or it will fail, opening the door to nihilism and the chaos of might and manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ ‘logic [i.e. right reason],’ ‘justice,’ and law etc. Which absurdity, should sound ever so familiar today.

The bill to be filled is a world source capable of grounding ought through being essentially good. After centuries of debate, there is precisely one serious candidate, the God of ethical theism. That is, the inherently good and utterly wise God, a necessary and maximaly great being. One, who is worthy of our loyalty and of our reasonable and responsible service by doing the good that accords with our evident nature.

You need not agree with this, but only to face the challenge that you too need to provide an adequate alternative that does not fall into ungrounded ought and/or grand delusion: _____________ Such is far harder to do than one may at first imagine.

PPS: Similarly, we may refresh our minds on how we may now freely set out to frame how that natural moral law may be drawn out, by using a first principles approach.

Let me promote some thoughts from 97 below, on |drawing out a framework for natural law, which on this focus is both more personal and more encompassing than statutory codes, judicial rulings, administrative regulations with force of law, contracts etc. Yes, it is a rational, self-evident principles based vision of law as shaping lives, families and civilisations that is regrettably now largely unfamiliar in a world that has now been reshaped by secularist forces and linked legal positivism, In effect, the forgotten vision of law.

It is worth the while to pause, and to remind ourselves of how that Bible-thumping theocratic Christofascist fundy [–> Pagan Stoic] Cicero summarised the received view, c. 50 BC; namely, how law is:

“highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . .[such that] the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice. “

This of course directly ties to how, undeniably, our responsible rational freedom is under the moral government (thus the law) of inherently known duty to truth, to right reason, to sound conscience, to prudence, to fairness, charity/benevolence and justice, etc. This then allows us to elaborate a worldviews level framework for law that then frames an agenda for rebuilding a sound culture. As in|, for instance:

1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought.

(This is manifest in even an objector’s implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.)

2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.)

3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. (That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity.)

4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise.

5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do.

6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. If a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT — so that IS and OUGHT are inextricably fused at that level, it fails decisively.)

7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare; usurping the sword of justice to impose a ruthless policy agenda in fundamental breach of that civil peace which must ever pivot on manifest justice. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.)

8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity.

9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd.

(Thus, we see here our sense of justice for the weak, inarticulate and defenseless; starkly manifest in the difference between luring and catching a fish to become lunch and luring and despoiling then destroying a child. Such a child has not the wit nor words to plead his case, nor the strength to defeat his attacker nor yet the speed to outrun him. Where, that some take pity on the fish and will go out of their way to eat only vegetables is itself further eloquent testimony on the point. [Notice, there is no “people for the ethical treatment of fruit, root starches, grains and vegetables” movement.]

10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Where, justice is the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. (In Aristotle’s terms as cited by Hooker: “because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like .”) Thus also,

11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly.

(NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting — again — nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation — or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an insitutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.)

12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil.

Comments
AS, in short, A is A, given its essential characteristics, precisely what Abraham Lincoln was getting at. When two things X and Y have different core characteristics, they are different, period. In that context to try to say a square is a circle is at best confused. When this confusion is then mixed with an approach to law that sees it only through the lens of power to impose rules with no room for justice as key to all law for morally governed creatures, this sets up destructive, ruinous impositions. Which is exactly what we are seeing. Including, as I noted, a Judge imagining that from his bench he can unilaterally rewrite a Constitution as he sees fit. Sorry, the days of Caesar as Dictator are over. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2019
May
05
May
16
16
2019
06:47 AM
6
06
47
AM
PST
DS, There is an issue of reality that settles what we talk about. If we speak truth, we accurately describe reality. That you are evidently blind to obvious differences is interesting psychologically but it does not change the reality and its implications given the dominance of the ruinous approach to law, positivism; which turns on dismissing our morally governed nature, thus dismissing the way rationality is governed as well as as part of that, duty to justice, the heart of law properly understood. Which, is the actual focus for this thread, for cause. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2019
May
05
May
16
16
2019
06:42 AM
6
06
42
AM
PST
daveS, "we’re doing the same thing" You've obviously been befuddled if you think that a lesbian relationship and a man and a woman in marriage are "doing the same thing." Different types, different equipment, different behaviors, different relations, different results, different consequences. Andrewasauber
May 16, 2019
May
05
May
16
16
2019
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PST
KF,
DS, Abraham Lincoln used this as an analogical example to address the problem of word magic. It is reality that prevails, not opinions and clever redefinitions. Truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. KF
My point is that unless we're talking about actual tails and legs, then we have to decide if there is "word magic" involved. When I compare my relationship with my wife to a lesbian friends' relationship with her partner, I don't see any reason to say that I am married and she is not. Apart from some physical differences, we're doing the same thing. Therefore I am not calling a tail a leg (metaphorically). That is very clear to me, despite your quasi-logical arguments to the contrary.daveS
May 16, 2019
May
05
May
16
16
2019
05:11 AM
5
05
11
AM
PST
Eugen, you have put your finger on the very mixed character of our civilisation. We find good and bad together and the latter is very stubborn. It also opens the door to the cultural marxist oppression thesis, meant to disqualify and dismiss objections to their agenda by pushing them outside the pale of the Overton window. Mix that with the positivist separation of power and justice in law (Marxism being inherently amoral, ironically) and we soon see how the latest power claim is imposed and how the new Kulaks are robbed of their due and are turned into deplorable targets of the daily two minute hate [--> err, news]. This is where we need to go back to core civilisational basics, including the import of our inescapably being under moral government. Starting, with that our life of the mind is and must be governed by duties to truth, right reason, prudence, justice and more; which then points through the IS-OUGHT gap to the only place it can be bridged, the root of reality. That is, either we acknowledge the inherently good, utterly wise creator God (a necessary, maximally great being worthy of our loyalty and of our reasonable service i/l/o our manifest nature) or else even rationality itself -- much less community, rights, justice, law, government etc -- falls into chaos. In short, the guilty secret of our radically secularist age tells, tells in cognitive dissonance-driven ways that all too powerfully explain our ongoing polarisation, disintegration of unifying centres, enabling of gross evils and perversities under colour of rights; thus, too, our slide towards the cliff's edge. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2019
May
05
May
16
16
2019
04:47 AM
4
04
47
AM
PST
EDTA, well said. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2019
May
05
May
16
16
2019
04:31 AM
4
04
31
AM
PST
F/N: Justinian's Institutes, Title II Sec 11:
11 But the laws of nature, which are observed by all nations alike, are established, as it were, by divine providence, and remain ever fixed and immutable: but the municipal laws of each individual state are subject to frequent change, either by the tacit consent of the people, or by the subsequent enactment of another statute
Positive law approaches tend to create an ever growing, voluminous corpus of statute laws and softer laws that easily become incoherent. If justice is lost sight of, such approaches become oppressive, especially in an increasingly polarised, faction-ridden state where power agendas and selfish ambition prevail over prudence and justice. Constitutions are intended to be a regulatory law on law but experience is showing that positivist, activist judges will by incremental precedents warp and even contradict the intent. A current case I am monitoring has a judge trying to overturn specific, natural law based Constitutional provisions by effectively claiming that courts can rewrite Constitutions. To do so, he has twisted specific provisions regarding discrimination and has ignored the Constitutionally stated option of recommending amendment. Such trends point to an undermining of constitutional, parliamentary democracies. A suggestion on the table is that precisely because they are unelected and unaccountable, judges who flout Constitutions should be subject to impeachment for contempt of Constitution (thus, parliament and people). Of course, the underlying challenge of the mutinous ship of state is there, too: a manipulated public can fall prey to political, financial and ideological operators, embarking on voyages of ruinous folly. Ac 27 is a microcosm. Ours is a perilous time. KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
11:45 PM
11
11
45
PM
PST
BB @ 22, > If your opinion about it were manifestly real, it would be shared by more that 50% of the population. Um, are you sure that is the criteria for truth? To the other question of our decline, I offer the following broad categories of things necessary for a vibrant society: Moral unity - necessary to prevent fragmentation; in decline. Political diversity/division not too great for us to function - necessary to allow problems to be solved; getting worse. Vision - necessary so that we have common goals to work towards as a nation; haven't really had a national one in several decades. Cultural continuity - necessary so that good aspects are not simply lost in one generation; in tatters.EDTA
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
07:28 PM
7
07
28
PM
PST
Brother Brian In #15 you mention achievements of the modern civilization like respecting minority rights, no more child labor, safe work environment. Don't forget that the same "amazing" civilization just transfered many negative things to another area of the world like Asia or Africa. There child labour is producing things for us in unsafe work environment and certain groups (some religious) are badly oppressed. So we shouldn't feel good about ourselves but rather admit there are still huge problems in the world.Eugen
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
07:11 PM
7
07
11
PM
PST
F/N: it is clear that the usual objectors cannot directly address the substantial matter in the OP. So, keep your eye on the ball, that positivism in law undermines the necessary focus on justice. I add, that's where the reformation will have to start from, fixing our understanding of what law is; which implies addressing the reality of moral government. KF PS: Those who implicitly reduce a human being to a clump of biomass, need to realise that something is being missed. Similar to those who used to calculate that the net worth of the masses of elements in our bodies was a few dollars. Soo, why worry about reducing such a clump of mostly water with some organic gels and minerals to ashes and fertiliser, in effect. Something big is being missed.kairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
05:49 PM
5
05
49
PM
PST
EG, doubling down on the fail. BB Dehumanisation. KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
05:46 PM
5
05
46
PM
PST
KF
the impact of positive law and dehumanisation of the unborn child are clear, that is enough.
No it’s not. You first have to explain why a fertilized ovum has the same rights as the mother. Or why a six week old fetus has the same rights as the woman.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
05:21 PM
5
05
21
PM
PST
KF
Your attempt to set up and knock over a strawman caricature to project blame and name-calling is unfounded.
There is no strawman. The bad behavior on both sides is there for all to see.
I have specifically spoken to ideologies and arguments not personalities. Fail,
If you have tried to avoid attacking personalities, you have failed. I don’t say this lightly. For some reason you react to BB and Hazel in a tone that their comments do not warrant.Ed George
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
05:15 PM
5
05
15
PM
PST
BB, the impact of positive law and dehumanisation of the unborn child are clear, that is enough. H, The truth is that a human life has just one beginning, conception. EG, Your attempt to set up and knock over a strawman caricature to project blame and name-calling is unfounded. I have specifically spoken to ideologies and arguments not personalities. Fail, KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PST
This discussion has degraded into a name calling excercuse on both sides. Both sides should feel shame.Ed George
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:52 PM
3
03
52
PM
PST
KF
As they say the higher the monkey climbs, the more exposed it is. Thwack, monkey stew for lunch.
But the important question is, who is the monkey? The person claiming equal rights for a mass of cells with no brain while, at the same time, denying rights to people simply because of the person they love, or me? Hint, I’m not good at climbing.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PST
kf writes, "Truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. " And maybe BB is telling you the truth.hazel
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:47 PM
3
03
47
PM
PST
BB, the unborn child is just that, and I need not go on in further loops of rhetoric with someone who has shown the fallacies he intends to cling to. Whether an unborn child, a newborn, a toddler, a teen, an adult or a golden ager, we are dealing with human lives, each of quasi-infinite worth and each with a right to life. Using different labels to obfuscate this is word magic in service to mass killing. All of this fits directly in with the will to power mentality of the positivist view on law, which has already been exposed. As they say the higher the monkey climbs, the more exposed it is. Thwack, monkey stew for lunch. KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PST
KF
It is reality that prevails, not opinions and clever redefinitions. Truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. KF
I agree. We don’t call a baby an adult. We don’t call an adult a baby (except when warranted :) ). We don’t call a sperm cell a human. Then why do you insist on calling a fetus a child? The argument that it is appropriate because it has the potential to become a child is moronic. I had the potential to be a Nobel winning neurosurgeon, but nobody is calling me a doctor.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PST
BB, the unborn child, from the moment of conception, eight days before implantation, is a distinct human life embarking on a process that we know and term life. The attempt to distance from that reality is telling. The rhetoric just used by Ms Milano et al fails: an ovum or a sperm cell are not a complete new human being. The proper term for an unborn child is just that, as may be readily ascertained, resort to distancing words such as conceptus, embryo or fetus inadvertently exposes the cognitive dissonance at work. The sordid tale of Haeckel, his drawings and the recapitulation icon in this context, we only mention. KF PS: By the time a woman would typically be aware we already have a recognisable human body with a beating heart. Both have a right to life, the first of all rights. Denial of rights and dehumanisation are signs of what has gone wrong.kairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:13 PM
3
03
13
PM
PST
DS, Abraham Lincoln used this as an analogical example to address the problem of word magic. It is reality that prevails, not opinions and clever redefinitions. Truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:09 PM
3
03
09
PM
PST
KF
There is no doubt that the unborn child in the womb is human,
If by human you mean it has human DNA, then I agree.
and that s/he has a different genetic package than his mother or father,
So do sperm cells and ova. I am familiar with biology and genetics.
indeed half the time the child is of a different sex than his mother.
You keep calling it a child. Even in the days when abortion was a crime, the terms fetus and embryo were used to distinguish it from a breathing, crying, pooping baby. And this was even when the doctors and scientists were opposed to abortion. Now, don’t get me wrong, nobody is arguing that abortion is a good thing. For the woman it is not an easy decision. And I am happy when they decide not to have one. But to claim that the rights of a fetus in the first couple months is equal to the rights of the woman is manifest nonsense.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PST
KF, Good, I guess if anyone actually calls a literal tail a leg, then that problem has been solved.daveS
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PST
DS, the objective facts and linked logic prevail. A leg and a tail simply do not have the same characteristics so hold distinct identity. And yes, principle of identity is again pivotal. BB, It is UN-Guttmacher numbers that give about 50 million abortions per year currently. A 40 year ramp to that level gets us to the 800 mn value easily and there is evidence of a plateau at roughly this level for 20 + years, hence the higher number. There is no doubt that the unborn child in the womb is human, and that s/he has a different genetic package than his mother or father, indeed half the time the child is of a different sex than his mother. What we have done and/or enabled will not bear scrutiny. Which is precisely why there has been an enabling campaign that has used techniques that can only be termed questionable. We do not tell truth or right by numbers or the clock, or by power but by sound warrant. The unprecedented mass slaughter of our living posterity in the womb is actual and it is inexcusable. In turn, that has pivoted on a distortion of how we understand law, and it has opened the way for onward questionable moves. KF PS: A 2013 global picture of opinions shows that it is in societies that have been heavily influenced by evolutionary materialistic scientism that abortion has large direct support or is viewed as a non-moral issue. This worldview directly supports the positivist view of law, and since Plato it has been known that it is itself inherently unable to bear the weight of ought, opening the door to nihilism. It is of course also self referentially incoherent and self-falsifying. This is again, direct evidence of the damage being done to our civilisation. PPS: A similar global snapshot across various issues shows that in fact for example the majority see abortion as unacceptable morally, on a global basis. Notice the global picture on other questions also.kairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
02:39 PM
2
02
39
PM
PST
KF
BB, Leff’s grand sez who fallacy again.
I am not arguing the numbers. Although they are certainly up for discussion. I am arguing against your characterization of abortion. If your opinion about it were manifestly real, it would be shared by more that 50% of the population.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PST
Hm. If someone says I'm calling a tail a leg, can I simply reply that they are committing the sez you fallacy? 🤔daveS
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
02:16 PM
2
02
16
PM
PST
BB, Leff's grand sez who fallacy again. It is an objective fact that in 40+ years 800+ million (and arguably ~ 1400 millions) of our living posterity in the womb have been killed. Further, this has been enabled through entrenching positivist type approaches to law that demonstrably open the door to the principle, will to power. This indicts us as a generation. KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PST
KF
BB, the manifest reality is plain. It has been outlined, starting with the killing of half a generation in the womb.
Yet the population is strongly divided on your manifest reality. Seems to me that it isn't so manifestly real.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PST
BB, the manifest reality is plain. It has been outlined, starting with the killing of half a generation in the womb. KFkairosfocus
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PST
KF
We could go on and on but it is manifest that many are in denial that something is deeply wrong.
Disagree and denial are not the same thing.Brother Brian
May 15, 2019
May
05
May
15
15
2019
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PST
1 2 3 4