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Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
We do not create or determine the innate capabilities or abilities that I have listed above @ #43 anymore that we create our genetic physical characteristics-- things like eye color, hair color, body height or body type etc. In other words, human nature is not our creation or invention though we can certainly use free will to enhance our abilities. For example, someone with genetically innate athletic abilities can perhaps become a superstar with the right motivation and training. Here is the dictionary definition of hardwired that I am generally using:
2: genetically or innately determined : INBORN creature whose every action is a reflexive, hardwired response — Natalie Angier also : genetically or innately predisposed a human being who is hardwired to be sociable
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hardwired However, I am not claiming that everything that anyone claims to be genetic or INBORN is genetic or inborn. I am using hardwired very narrowly as those capabilities that most humans are born with. But again we can use freewill to enhance those capabilities or tragically, in too many cases, undermine, abuse and misuse them.john_a_designer
February 4, 2021
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F/N: Let me clip from Weak Argument Corrective 38 (as was already linked), on quantum theory issues:
UD’s contributor StephenB has put his finger on the basic problem here: Scientists do not use observed evidence to evaluate the principles of logic; they use the principles of logic to evaluate such evidence . . . . [During the original development] at each stage, the scientists were comparing observations with what the classical theory predicted, and were implicitly assuming that if the theory, T, predicted observations, O, but we saw NOT-O instead, then T was wrong. Q: Why is that? A: Because they respected the logical law of identity [LOI], and its travelling companions, the law of non-contradiction [LNC] and the excluded middle [LEM]. If a scientific theory T is consistent with and predicts observations O, but we see the denial of O, i.e. NOT-O, O is first seen as distinct and recognisably different from NOT-O [LOI]. The physicists also saw that O and NOT-O cannot both be so in the same sense and circumstances [LNC], and they realised that once O is a distinct phenomenon they would see O or NOT-O, not both or something else [LEM]. (Where also, superposition is not a blending of logical opposites, but an interaction between contributing parents, say P and Q to get a composite result, say R; as we can see with standing waves on a string or a ripple tank’s interference pattern.) Going further, when such scientists scratched out their equations and derivations on their proverbial chalk boards, they were using distinct symbols, and were reasoning step by step on these same three laws. In short, the heart of the scientific method inescapably and deeply embeds the classic laws of thought. You cannot do science, including Quantum Theory science, without basing your work on the laws of thought. So, it is self-refuting and absurd to suggest that Quantum Theory results can or do undermine these laws of thought. In short, to then suggest that empirical discoveries or theoretical analysis now overturns the basic laws of thought, is to saw off the branch on which science must sit, if it is to be a rational enterprise at all . . .
KF PS: In the Schroedinger cat case, the cat is of sufficient size that strictly, its position and momentum are in the range where classical results are good enough. That is, known to be empirically reliable, sufficient to trust even where the cat is hidden behind an opaque barrier. No, the cat, a classical level object, is not both alive and dead, were we to actually set such up, and a lab rat would be a better choice. What would be true is, there is a probability function during the what 1/2 hour of veiling, with odds typically at 1:1 when the situation is exposed, which reveals which side won. The actual quantum issue is a low intensity RA capsule and detector set up to trigger a poison gas vial that on detection of a particle would trigger release. The observer here that is actually subject to the quantum event of RA decay, is the detector. A more fruitful case in which quantum effects are pervasive is the particle beam double slit experiment where the particle . . . whimsically, wavicle . . . can undergo superposition of states even at an intensity where it is only one photon or particle at a time in the path, so yes the smearing out is true of individual particles not just collections, the wave phenomenon binds to the particle; this BTW suggests the classic Copenhagen interpretation, a probability wave. Probability translating directly to an index of ignorance and uncertainty on a span of possibilities. This case tells us that our waves vs particles map of what such particles are is wrong, and indeed the configuration of detectors interacts with the wavicles in ways that lead to resolution as though particle or wave. We can ask why, apart from that is the math constrained by postulates pivoting on observed facts, we lack a good generally accepted dominant conceptual explanation/ interpretation, there are multiple schools of thought. However, all along the process the same sort of reasoning just cited is at work. Indeed, in doing the Math, the first principles of logic [right reason] are inextricably involved in the process. So, we are back to the issue that it is unwise to saw off the branch on which we are all inescapably sitting. But, we live in such a world today that there are powerful factions, influences and voices strongly inclined to do just that. The result is chaos.kairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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JAD, perhaps, different phrasing? For, the issue is not so much "hard wir[ing]" -- which suggests or invites an inference to determinism (which undermines rationality and freedom by inviting the notion, wired-in delusion, cf. Rosenberg) -- but that we are morally governed attested to by our consciences. That is, we see here that rationality requires freedom and freedom means duty to discern and choose towards the right. With first duties of freedom including truth, right reason etc. KFkairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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There are many reasons why an atheistic naturalistic worldview is totally inadequate in explaining anything. One of them is explaining human nature. As a matter of fact, stheistic naturalism/materialism is blatantly dehumanizing because it cannot give an adequate explanation for human nature. For example, human beings are somehow uniquely hardwired cognitively in four distinct ways:
*1. We are hardwired to seek and discern the truth. For example, we have what appears to be an intrinsic or innate ability to accurately use logic and reason, including mathematical reasoning. *2. We are hardwired to seek purpose and meaning, including ultimate purpose and meaning. *3. We are hardwired as moral beings. Only human beings can discern good and bad, good or evil, ought and ought not. *4. We are also hardwired to seek out and appreciate beauty.
Is this all the result of some mindless, undirected and random evolutionary process? Or, is there something else? Another explanation? I think that there is evidence that there is and the evidence is human nature itself. What about human nature is the evidence? I’ve just listed it for you. See 1 through 4 above.john_a_designer
February 3, 2021
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Yes, Viola. All discovered. All the information required by this universe is already in the universe. Information is another fundamental entity. It cannot be created nor destroyed. Matter, energy and information, including mathematics, are all such fundamental entities. We cannot create them and we cannot destroy them. But we have the intelligently designed ability to discover, study, understand and utilize these fundamental entities. And everyone's capabilities in that regard are not equal. Srinivasa Ramanujan is a great example of that.ET
February 3, 2021
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HI JAD, you may not want to pursue this branch of the threads on this post, but do you have any thoughts on #24 which I wrote in response to your comments on math being discovered or invented?Viola Lee
February 3, 2021
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The point I was trying to make at #22 was that naturalism/materialism eschews the idea of teleology even though by their own admission teleological thinking is something that appears to be very natural and innate to human beings Here is a quote from article cited in the OP that was posted back here at UD back in 2018:
Because teleological and animist thinking are part of children’s earliest intuitions about the world and are resilient in adulthood [8, 9], they thus could be causally involved in the acquisition of creationist and conspiracist beliefs. However, our results do not rule out the possibility that acceptance of such beliefs could, conversely, favor a teleological bias. Yet, in both cases, the ‘everything happens for a reason’ or ‘it was meant to be’ intuition at the heart of teleological thinking not only remains an obstacle to the acceptance of evolutionary theory, but could also be a more general gateway to the acceptance of anti-scientific views and conspiracy theories.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/claimed-link-between-creationism-and-conspiracism/#comment-663572 In other words, the authors concede that we are all “hardwired” to believe that there is some sort higher purpose evident in nature but then they implicitly claim that ‘it’s all an illusion.’ But how does the atheistic materialist come to the dogmatic conclusion that this innate and intuitive sense of purpose is not only an illusion but something that needs to be suppressed? What’s their argument? Aren’t they making a universal truth claim here? On what basis are atheistic naturalists/materialists in the position to make universal truth claims? At best from what I have read and studied atheistic naturalism/ materialism lacks the epistemological basis to make such claims.john_a_designer
February 3, 2021
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re 37 and 38: Did Rowling discover Harry Potter? Was the whole Harry Potter series (as well as all possible stories written in all possible languages) already "in existence" somehow? If so, how?Viola Lee
February 3, 2021
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Everything that we do is via discovery. Even our inventions were discovered.ET
February 3, 2021
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But was M itself discovered or invented?
Analogous to whether a particular work of fiction was discovered or invented. Most fiction resonates because it could have happened or is very similar to a real life situation that did happen.
for reasons I cannot begin to imagine.
Sounds like real life.jerry
February 3, 2021
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VL, you set up a formulation of M, however the structures and relationships etc were there all along. Your little logic model world, M is an exploration of something much bigger. KFkairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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jerry there is an unstable pattern of buggy behaviour. I think different threads will be open/closed for particular accounts for reasons I cannot begin to imagine. KFkairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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26 does not answer my question. re 28: Yes, my system M uses logic and properties of the natural number system. But was M itself discovered or invented?Viola Lee
February 3, 2021
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Interesting that some comment boxes are still closed.jerry
February 3, 2021
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Jerry, it is a fairly common theme to recognise that numbers etc are abstract. That's why mathematical platonists exist. The study of mathematical objects, sets, systems, schemes etc is an intellectual exercise. The focus of that study is structure and of course quantity, sometimes space is separated out but that fits in, in structure. The quantities start with N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc, and we see from Z, R and C that we deal with abstract spaces and vectors already: magnitude and direction sense not algebraic vector space sense, a family of abstract algebraic structures. My linked is about how from distinct identity of a possible world, we already set up first quantities and the von Neumann succession, thence the chain of sets, with their structures and relationships. Logic is Mathematical and Mathematics is logical, they are inextricably intertwined, as Boole and successors have so convincingly shown. The abstract quantities, being part of the framework of any possible world are tied to logic of being, which here is effectively a synonym for Ontology. See; https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-ontology/ And BTW, modal logic is a major focus of such matters and is expressed using an algebra or rather a family of algebras, S5 being famous. KF PS: An intro on Logic and Maths http://www.personal.psu.edu/t20/papers/philmath/kairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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Structure, being abstract, and study being an intelligent exercise. That is, applied ontology using logic. As I showed, a core is fabric to the distinct identity of any possible world, conferring universal power. That in turn opens up our study. KF
I haven’t a clue what you are saying. But “logic” is a mathematical discipline. I took it in my math PhD program. Not sure what structure or quantity was involved with it. Lots of p’s and q’s. Completely abstract. True story: the professor who taught the logic course covered the entire board in front of class with equations and words and then proceeded to cover side boards with similar stuff. He was 2/3 through side board when he said the equation he just wrote was intuitively obvious (that is no need for an explanation.). Another student asked why that was so. The professor backed up and looked at board and then went to front board and read everything he wrote. This took about 5 minutes. He then turned to the class and said yes, it was intuitively obvious and went back to writing on the black board.jerry
February 3, 2021
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Jerry, Math is arguably best understood as[ the study of] the logic of structure and quantity, application of aspects of logic of being. Structure, being abstract, and study being an intelligent exercise. That is, applied ontology using logic. As I showed, a core is fabric to the distinct identity of any possible world, conferring universal power. That in turn opens up our study. KFkairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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log in reappearskairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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Mathematics is a subset of logic. It is not invented. Like logic it can be applied to any system, Imaginary or real. In reality most of what it is applied to is imaginary but often analogous to real things. The real world application often comes after the mathematics has been explored. Or is logic a subset of mathematics? There is a mathematical discipline called logic. Existence is the amazing thing. That anything exists is the ultimate mystery not logic or mathematics. And we are allowed to recognize this is even more amazing. Aside: what got me interested in math was geometry. I always got high grades in arithmetic and then algebra. But when I discovered my first geometry proof, I was hooked. I finished the book by mid October. I was taken by the logic not the particular discipline.jerry
February 3, 2021
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F/N: On fine tuning, start here and with the onward linked https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyi-ftr-luke-barnes-on-fine-tuning KF-and-the-case-of-the-fine-structure-constant/ Note, where we are and the span of scales. KFkairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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VL, properties and relationships of relevant numbers are -- as shown -- embedded in the framework of any possible world. KFkairosfocus
February 3, 2021
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Srinivasa Ramanujan would say that you discovered it. And I say that because of what he discovered.ET
February 2, 2021
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back at 13, JAD wrote, "I think (again) the question whether or not mathematics is invented (by us) or discovered (not invented by us) has some real bearing here." The following bears on that question: Here is a mathematical system M, defined as such: 1. Let x and y be integers 2. Define Z = x @ y = (x - y)^2 + & where & = 1 if y is odd and & = 2 if y is even M is thus a system defined for the integers that includes a new operator @. Three questions: Q1: What is the value of (5 @ 2) @ (2 @ 5)? Q2: Prove that if x is odd and y is even (x @ y) @ (y @ x) = 2. Q3: What are the results if a) both numbers are even, and b) both numbers are odd? ======================================== Meta-question #1 (MQ1). Suppose you answered any of the questions above. Did you invent or discover the answer? I think it is clear that you discovered the answer. Once the system is set up (useless as it is), the value of every Z is determined for all pairs of numbers x and y, and every expression involving numbers using x, y, and the operator @ is also determined, no matter how complicated an expression might be. If you follow the rules and are careful and persevering, you can discover all sorts of stuff about the system. It's all there waiting to be found. Meta-question #2: Did I invent or discover the system M. I think it is clear that I invented it. What do you think, and why?Viola Lee
February 2, 2021
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JAD, possible worlds analysis and calculus [a form of modal logic] addresses potential, actual and necessary being. This stuff is ontology, a branch of metaphysics. Obviously, in context we can in principle look at moral oughtness through modal analysis, creating operators as necessary. KFkairosfocus
February 2, 2021
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Egnor quote from #16.
Aristotle observed that in contrast to non-being, there were two manifestations of being — potentiality and actuality. Potentiality (or potency) is an intermediate state between non-being and being. It is the capacity to receive form — the capacity to become a defined existing thing. It is not the thing itself, however, it is only capacity. Potency is not actual.
Potentiality is something the naturalist/materialist doesn’t explain (or concedes exists) because he/she can’t explain, so he/she pretends that it doesn’t even exist. Nevertheless, the world (the universe) is full of potentialities. The acorn has a potential to become an oak tree… A fertilized egg has the species specific potential to become a chicken, a sparrow… or a human being. Certain kinds of clouds have the potential to produce rain, snow or thunder and lightning. If you think about it from a cosmological perspective hydrogen atoms under the right conditions (condition that needed to be almost exactly right) have the potential to become every material thing that exists in the universe: stars, galaxies all the known elements, planets… But if you admit potentiality you have to admit teleology (a word they will not use) and teleology is just another word for design. So what is their explanation? Everything just happened?john_a_designer
February 2, 2021
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WJM, no. Superpositions are discussed in the linked. The point is, the construction of Q-theory as a mathematical exercise inescapably is pervaded with LOI and corollaries at every step and the principle of empirical disproof by failed prediction is also pervaded. Those who have suggested that Q-theory disproves . . . note, an empirical and/or theoretical claim that is inextricably pervaded with LOI etc . . . LOI are in deep self-referential incoherence, thus contradiction. Unfortunately, their aura of authority and the mystique of mathematics and science then draws lay persons into a crooked yardstick meme. Coming back to what I am actually arguing, humans are plainly macro-observable and even your own arguments pivot on the duties of reason to gain any traction. My point above is, for us to be rational, we must be significantly free enough to choose to follow a ground-consequent chain or to make an inference to best explanation judgement. Freedom carries with it possible alternatives and moral government is about discerning which are right and which are not. Ought, patently, pivots on the possibility that what we actually do is different from what we should, and further turns on ability to make sense of which is right among alternatives or in some cases which is least bad. The latter is a superposition [shades of grey is a common metaphor], but it is definitely not a schroedinger cat case or a case where manner of observation of say a double slit bombarded by particles determines wave like or particle like behaviour. Rational thought resolves choice for those sufficiently practiced to be prudent, and compromises for the hardness of hearts have to be made [think, regulating divorce or managing a war or a political campaign or a government], but such simply is not a quantum superposition resolved by manner of observation. Moral observation and analysis are not stochastic phenomena, they are phenomena of carefully nurtured and practiced discernment; i.e. prudence. Unfortunately, the study and praxis behind such wisdom are far too rare today. KFkairosfocus
February 2, 2021
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Tell me, in Shroedinger's cat experiments (actually conducted with photons and the like,) where does the state of the life of the cat exist? Hint: it' not in the cat.William J Murray
February 2, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, Q-theory implicitly relies on distinct identity just to exist and function. Note here and onward. KF
I didn't say it didn't. I said it has destroyed the basis for for your position here - because it has revealed you are improperly applying the principles of logic. You're applying them to the wrong thing. Or, rather, you are misidentifying that which has the identity in question and where "non-contradiction" lies.William J Murray
February 2, 2021
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BA77, I didn't say that Shrodinger's cat contradicted the principles of logic. I said to let me know how those principles can be applied to quantum indeterminant states and the contradictory reality experiment I I I linked to. Egnor's "potency" answer is ridiculous because the cat has the "potency" to change states from alive to dead without ever being subjected to the experiment. Nobody question the potency to change from alive to dead or to change states; that's not what the quantum aspect of this is about. According to quantum theory and the results of experimentation, the cat IS both alive and dead at the same time - and can be at two different places at that same time. https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-05/aaft-sci052316.php You didn't respond to the link I provided in that comment. To be clear, I'm not saying that the principles of logic aren't valid; what I'm saying is that the basis for KF's thesis has been obliterated because he is applying those principles to the wrong thing. Remember, for the principles to hold true, one must be applying them correctly - to the correct thing. The incorrect thing to apply them to, in the case of Schroedinger's cat, is the cat. Or anything in the box. Or the box itself. That is not what the laws of logic should be properly applied to in that scenario. Have I given you enough hints? This is why KF's argument has been destroyed; it's not because the principles of logic do not work; it's because he's applying them to the wrong things. This is what 100 years of quantum experimentation have show us conclusively.William J Murray
February 2, 2021
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WJM, Q-theory implicitly relies on distinct identity just to exist and function. Note here and onward. KFkairosfocus
February 2, 2021
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