Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
Fox News cancels Lou Dobbs’ show; pro-Trump host not expected to be back on airSteve Alten2
February 6, 2021
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Kf,
Again, I would avoid hard wired language as it suggests a pre programmed computational substrate, by direct analogy with fixed read only memory and linked arithmetic and logic unit.
Please read what I wrote… You’re clearly misunderstanding me. Let me try to clarify what I should not have to clarify. Did you design the circuitry and the operating system of the computer you are presently using? I suspect that you didn’t. The designer/ designers of the computer did that. What you are arguing is EXACTLY what members the secular progressive left (SPL) are arguing that there is nothing fixed, innate or “hardwired" about human nature. That we can in fact redesign and remake humanity. I am arguing that there is. Take, for example, the concept of gender. The SPL is arguing that gender is fluid so a man has the right, if he believes he’s the woman, to transition to or become a woman. (Never mind about genitalia, chromosomes etc.) To make matters worse people like me no longer have the right to even disagree with that… So you believe that gender is not hardwired?john_a_designer
February 6, 2021
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Viola Lee “ Perhaps I wasn’t clear.” I think you are being too hard on yourself. I have found your comments to be very clear. Refreshingly so compared to other commenters here, including my own.Steve Alten2
February 6, 2021
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BA77, In 58 above, I noted:
the ironic thing is that Darwin used that note [--> on mistrusting the thoughts of a jumped up monkey brain] with a twist, he was trying to undermine doubts on his theory which he believed was robustly supported empirically. So, by donning the lab coat he hoped to dismiss philosophical objections while avoiding self referential incoherence. Of course, we don’t have the empirical support, once we realised the challenge of complex algorithmically functional information from molecular noise and trial and error on steroids. The only empirically warranted source for such is intelligence; which we know cannot be a human monopoly. As for reliance on deep abstract reasoning and its extension to the real world, ponder Wigner’s astonishment at the success of Mathematics. (And yes, that linked article is pivotal.) That is, the nature, universal utility and powerful success of Mathematics are direct disproofs of Darwin’s attempted dismissal of complex abstruse reasoning by jumped up apes from the East African savannahs, inconvenient to his theory. You can have your mathematics with its track record of success or you can have your crude evolutionary materialistic determinism and refusal to attend to the significance of linguistic, coded, complex algorithmic information in the living cell. You cannot have both. We are back to the civilisation-shaping force of inescapable first duties of reason and the implication that we are under the government of a built in law coeval with our humanity. That is, laws of nature clearly extends beyond the dynamic-stochastic physical world to the morally governed rationality of significantly free creatures, us. Thence, the Ciceronian, law as highest reason, morally governed human nature framework for law, government and civilisation.
The pervasive utility and inherently abstract, abstruse, deeply logical nature of Mathematics, jointly, are a major barrier to radical subjectivism and relativism. That is, at dialectic level, important for actual balance on merits. (BTW, the linked paper arose from discussions on logic and first principles here at UD.) That is key, but we must recognise that thinking in terms of warrant and its limitations i/l/o logic and credible truth claims, including inescapable, undeniable or otherwise self-evident first truths or public truths is very much an acquired taste. One, that in the context of Math is multiplied by the difficulty of the ascent of Mt Everest. At more popular level, we must ever be aware of rhetoric and the issue of credibility at personal, institutional, community and civilisation levels. Rhetoric, being the sometimes dark art of persuasion as opposed to warrant much less proof. We face the three levers of persuasion, pathos, ethos, logos. I tend to adapt: I: pathos --> emotions, underlying perceptions, expectations, judgements; II: ethos --> authority, presenter, or even witness [authority by presence or expertise] and credibility/perceived character; III: logos --> weight and balance of warrant on facts and logic including underlying assumptions or axioms and presuppositions or basic worldview-shaping beliefs that shape plausibility structures. A first consideration is correcting the tendency to mis-define truth as opinion. We already have a word, opinion. Truth is best taken as Aristotle summed it up in Metaphysics, 1011b: say[ing] of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. Whether or not we accept it or can warrant it, truth is accurate description of being, what is, relevant reality. Where of course there is a lab coat clad attack on recognising that there are distinct things with distinct states, often in the name of Quantum theory. Above, I pointed out that as our weak argument correctives highlight, distinct identity and close corollaries pervade the fabric of quantum theory both in its mathematical and empirical development and in even how a superposition arises. We must not be overawed. A civilisation that blinds itself to truth and reality is headed over the cliff. In such context, I highlight that we have key truths on moral government which drives sound law and government, first duties of reason. They are coeval with our humanity, as freedom and reason mean we can thing through what is, what ought to be, and often enough which path is right. This, too, we must not become blind to. This is the challenge we face, dancing on the edge of a cliff. (Remember only a few years back, when inveterate objectors were busily dismissing concerns as alarmist and fear mongering?) KFkairosfocus
February 6, 2021
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at 70 JaD states
John_a_designer @ #43 I argued that human beings are somehow uniquely hardwired cognitively in four distinct ways: *1. We are hardwired to seek and discern the truth. For example, we have what appears to be an intrinsic or innate ability to accurately use logic and reason, including mathematical reasoning. *2. We are hardwired to seek purpose and meaning, including ultimate purpose and meaning. *3. We are hardwired as moral beings. Only human beings can discern good and bad, good or evil, ought and ought not. *4. We are also hardwired to seek out and appreciate beauty.
and at 46 JaD clarifies what he means by 'hardwarded'
I am not claiming that everything that anyone claims to be genetic or INBORN is genetic or inborn. I am using hardwired very narrowly as those capabilities that most humans are born with. But again we can use freewill to enhance those capabilities or tragically, in too many cases, undermine, abuse and misuse them.
And indeed there is something profoundly immaterial about truth, purpose and meaning, morality, and beauty. Something profoundly immaterial that simply refuses to ever be reduced to the simplistic materialistic explanations of Darwinists. For instance, in regards to truth, it is interesting to note that postmodernists deny the existence of objective truth and instead argue that all truth is 'relative' to each person,,,
"postmodernism is highly skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person." https://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/postm-body.html
And, as Nancy Pearcey explains in the following article, postmodern philosophy, which denies the existence of objective truth, is indeed the bastard child of Darwinism,
How Darwinism Dumbs Us Down - Nancy Pearcey Excerpt: I once presented this progression from Darwinism to postmodern pragmatism at a Christian college, when a man in the audience raised his hand: “I have only one question. These guys who think all our ideas and beliefs evolved . . . do they think their own ideas evolved?” The audience broke into delighted applause, because of course he had captured the key fallacy of the Darwinian approach to knowledge. If all ideas are products of evolution, and thus not really true but only useful for survival, then evolution itself is not true either–and why should the rest of us pay any attention to it? https://www.namb.net/apologetics/resource/how-darwinism-dumbs-us-down/
Dawkins himself admitted that, "Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life."
"Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life." - Richard Dawkins - quoted from "The God Delusion"
In short, Darwinian evolution, taking to its logical end, undermines belief in objective truth and therefore undermines belief that Darwinism itself is true, As Nancy Pearcey further explains in the following article, "if Darwin’s theory is true, then it is not true.”,
Why Evolutionary Theory Cannot Survive Itself - Nancy Pearcey - March 2015 Excerpt: “An example of self-referential absurdity is a theory called evolutionary epistemology, a naturalistic approach that applies evolution to the process of knowing. The theory proposes that the human mind is a product of natural selection. The implication is that the ideas in our minds were selected for their survival value, not for their truth-value. But what if we apply that theory to itself? Then it, too, was selected for survival, not truth — which discredits its own claim to truth. Evolutionary epistemology commits suicide. Astonishingly, many prominent thinkers have embraced the theory without detecting the logical contradiction. Philosopher John Gray writes, “If Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true,… the human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth.” What is the contradiction in that statement? Gray has essentially said, if Darwin’s theory is true, then it “serves evolutionary success, not truth.” In other words, if Darwin’s theory is true, then it is not true.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/why_evolutionar094171.html
Thus, Darwin's theory denies that we can know objective truth, whilst Darwinism's bastard philosophical child of postmodernism ends up denying the existence of objective truth altogether. And the reason why Darwinism, in the end, ends up denying the existence of objective truth altogether, and driving itself into catastrophic epistemological failure, is simply because objective truth is profoundly immaterial. For instance, mathematics itself, such as 2+2=4, which is obviously objectively true for all people, and not just relatively true to only individual people, is profoundly immaterial in its foundational nature,
What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories. ,,, In fact, more problematic for the materialist than the non-existence of persons is the existence of mathematics. Why? Although a committed materialist might be perfectly willing to accept that you do not really exist, he will have a harder time accepting that numbers do not exist. The trouble is that numbers — along with other mathematical entities such as classes, sets, and functions — are indispensable for modern science. And yet — here’s the rub — these “abstract objects” are not material. Thus, one cannot take science as the only sure guide to reality and at the same time discount disbelief in all immaterial realities. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html
Moreover, since our own immaterial minds came into being and are therefore contingent, and are not eternally existent, and yet we can discover eternal, and objective, mathematical truths with our immaterial minds, then it necessarily follows that “there must exist an eternal mind in which these eternal (mathematical) truths reside.”
11. The Argument from Truth This argument is closely related to the argument from consciousness. It comes mainly from Augustine. 1. Our limited minds can discover eternal truths about being. 2. Truth properly resides in a mind. 3. But the human mind is not eternal. 4. Therefore there must exist an eternal mind in which these truths reside. https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#11
And please note that this argument for our immaterial minds, and for God, from the existence of mathematics is perfectly consistent with what we now know to be true about mathematics from Godel’s incompleteness theorem. Namely, that mathematics itself has a contingent existence and does not, in and of itself, have a necessary existence,
Taking God Out of the Equation - Biblical Worldview - by Ron Tagliapietra - January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity ... all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency ... no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness ... all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He (Godel) summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation
And just like truth is profoundly immaterial in its foundational essence, purpose and meaning, morality, and beauty and also profoundly immaterial in their foundational essences. But seeing as this post is already long enough, I will leave elucidating those facts aside for the moment. Suffice it for now to know that objective truth is profoundly immaterial in its foundational essence, and the sheer inability of the materialistic processes of Darwinian evolution to account for our knowledge of objective truth, much less its failure to account for the existence of objective truth itself, ends up driving Darwinism itself into catastrophic epistemological failure. Verse and Quote
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. “If you were to take Mohammed out of Islam, and Buddha out of Buddhism, and Confucius out of Confucianism you would still have a faith system that was relatively in tact. However, taking Christ out of Christianity sinks the whole faith completely. This is because Jesus centred the faith on himself. He said, “This is what it means to have eternal life: to know God the Father and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent” (John 17:3). “I am the light of the world” (John 8:12). Buddha, before dying, said in effect, “I am still seeking for the truth.” Mohammed said in effect, “I point you to the truth.” Jesus said, “I am the truth.” Jesus claimed to not only give the truth, but to be the very personal embodiment of it.” http://commonground.co.za/?resources=is-jesus-the-only-way-to-god
bornagain77
February 6, 2021
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JaD, without significant freedom the life of the mind collapses in discredit. In particular, mindedness cannot be reduced to blind computation on a dynamic-stochastic substrate. Further to such, what breathes fire into cold logic and empirical evidence is the conscience attested built in first duties of reason. Again, I would avoid hard wired language as it suggests a pre programmed computational substrate, by direct analogy with fixed read only memory and linked arithmetic and logic unit. On aesthetics, there are in fact readily identifiable and objective principles, often something that can be judged by eye but also reducible in such aspects to mathematical properties. The underlying issue is that we evidently have a common human nature which, being free is morally governed through the recognition of oughtness and the linked challenges of moral struggle. In turn we see first duties tied to l;aw and government. KFkairosfocus
February 5, 2021
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@ #43 I argued that human beings are somehow uniquely hardwired cognitively in four distinct ways:
*1. We are hardwired to seek and discern the truth. For example, we have what appears to be an intrinsic or innate ability to accurately use logic and reason, including mathematical reasoning. *2. We are hardwired to seek purpose and meaning, including ultimate purpose and meaning. *3. We are hardwired as moral beings. Only human beings can discern good and bad, good or evil, ought and ought not. *4. We are also hardwired to seek out and appreciate beauty.
I discussed 1-3 individually but briefly @ #48, 56 & #61 (though not in the order listed.) My point is that each of these are undeniable factors in what we refer to as human nature. By undeniable I mean they appear to be accepted as characteristics or factors of human nature by virtually everyone regardless of their worldview. At first, I was hesitant to include #4, “We are also hardwired to seek out and appreciate beauty,” because I didn’t think it was that crucial to my argument but then I began to think of the ways that beauty dominates all our lives. For example, there are people who make their livelihood off of music, art, drama (including movies and T.V.) Indeed, it’s a major part of our economy. Nevertheless, I am not going to say a lot because I think there is probably a lot of agreement that our “esthetic drive” is something that is unique to human beings. On the other hand, it’s probably the most subjective of the four factors. There is a lot of truth to the statement, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” However, some on my side of the debate try to argue that there is something intrinsic or objective about beauty. Whether there is or there isn’t that’s not crucial to the points I’m trying to make here.john_a_designer
February 5, 2021
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I also am "comfortable that unbiased readers can easily see who is being straightforward, etc. ....." Sometimes unbiased readers are hard to come by, though.Viola Lee
February 5, 2021
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Whatever Viola Lee, You directly contradicted yourself in your first post, I cleared that up, and now you want a mulligan. Whatever,,, you have done nothing in your second post to 'clear up' what you supposedly meant in your first post. Much less have you even begun to 'explain' Zeilinger's experimental results with anything resembling a coherent answer! I am comfortable that unbiased readers can easily see who is being straightforward and who is trying to blow smoke.to cover their behind.bornagain77
February 5, 2021
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was not appealing to superdeterminism. I was offering the quote by Bell to show that Bell's conclusion and Zeilinger's experiment were strong evidence against superdeterminism. I think I later made it clear that superdeterminism is dead. The bulk of BA's reply is about things I didn't say, or support, aimed at "atheistic materialists" but not relevant to what I said. However, I am saying that BA is making an erroneous conclusion that “the experimental results of quantum mechanics are actually telling us …that free will is a real and tangible part of reality.” QM is telling us that non-determinacy is real, but it is only metaphorical to label that "free will". The correct conclusion is that the results of quantum mechanics are real: entanglement, probabilistic events, etc., and that the indeterminacy of the world starts at the very most fundamental level, and thus we can conclude that we also are not fully determined. However, the article posted at mit's site that I linked to above said “So what does Conway and Kochen’s Free Will theorem state? The theorem states that, if we assume that we have a certain amount of free will, then, subject to certain other assumptions, elementary particles must have free will too." I recommend the article. That is quantum events may provide the core basis for our being able to make non-determined choices, but it is an unjustified leap of a huge magnitude to go from the indeterminacy of the universe embedded in quantum events to the libertarian free will that BA is invoking. But, to reiterate, most of BA's post about "atheistic materialists" supporting superdeterminacy in order to avoid the implications of quantum theory has nothing to with what I wrote. Furthermore, it probably isn't true that many physicists, atheistic materialists or otherwise, support superdeterminancy. Yes, there are still physicists pursuing the "hidden variables" interpretation of QM, but they are in the minority, I think.Viola Lee
February 5, 2021
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Viola Lee apparently does not really understand what he is talking about. In one breath he states that, since I believe Zeilinger's experiment strongly supports the reality of free will, then the universe is not superdetermined,
"I don’t think BA’s interpretation on Anton Zeilinger’s experiments means what he thinks it means. He think it means that humans have libertarian free will. What it really means is that the universe is not superdetermined, and that genuine quantum phenomena, including entanglement and probabilistic outcomes, occur without deterministic “hidden variables”.
Yet in the next breath he appeals directly to superdeterminism, via John Bell, to try to get around my straightforward inference to free will via Zeilinger's experiment,
In the 1980s, John Bell discussed superdeterminism in a BBC interview:[3][4] There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the “decision” by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already “knows” what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.
But be that as it may, and whatever VL is really trying to say, superdeterminism is just another desperate attempt by atheistic materialists to try to avoid the 'spooky' Theistic implications of quantum mechanics. Basically, with the closing of the setting independence and/or 'free will' loop hole, by Zeilinger and company, the Atheistic naturalist is now reduced to arguing that “a particle detector’s settings may “conspire” with events in the shared causal past of the detectors themselves to determine which properties of the particle to measure.”
Closing the ‘free will’ loophole: Using distant quasars to test Bell’s theorem – February 20, 2014 Excerpt: Though two major loopholes have since been closed, a third remains; physicists refer to it as “setting independence,” or more provocatively, “free will.” This loophole proposes that a particle detector’s settings may “conspire” with events in the shared causal past of the detectors themselves to determine which properties of the particle to measure — a scenario that, however far-fetched, implies that a physicist running the experiment does not have complete free will in choosing each detector’s setting. Such a scenario would result in biased measurements, suggesting that two particles are correlated more than they actually are, and giving more weight to quantum mechanics than classical physics. “It sounds creepy, but people realized that’s a logical possibility that hasn’t been closed yet,” says MIT’s David Kaiser, the Germeshausen Professor of the History of Science and senior lecturer in the Department of Physics. “Before we make the leap to say the equations of quantum theory tell us the world is inescapably crazy and bizarre, have we closed every conceivable logical loophole, even if they may not seem plausible in the world we know today?” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140220112515.htm
In other words, instead of believing what the experimental results of quantum mechanics are actually telling us, (i.e. that free will is a real and tangible part of reality),, the Determinist, and/or Atheistic Naturalist, is now forced to claim, via 'superdeterminism', that the results of the experiments were somehow ‘superdetermined’ at least 7.8 billion years ago, (basically all the way back to the creation of the universe itself), and that the experimental results are now merely ‘fooling us’ into believing that our experimental results in quantum theory are trustworthy and correct and that we do indeed have free will. To call such a move on the part of Atheistic Naturalists, (i.e. the rejection of experimental results that conflict with their apriori philosophical belief in ‘determinism’), unscientific would be a severe understatement. It is a rejection of the entire scientific method itself. Atheistic Naturalists, in their appeal to ‘superdeterminism’, are basically arguing that we cannot trust what the experimental results of quantum mechanics themselves are telling us because events in the remote past ‘conspired’ to give us erroneous experimental results today. Erroneous experimental results that are merely ‘fooling us’ into believing that we have free will. As should be needless to say, if we cannot trust what our experimental results are actually telling us, then science is, for all practical purposes, dead. Atheistic Naturalists, in their rejection of experimental results that conflict with their a-priori belief in determinism and/or materialism, have become ‘science deniers’ in the truest sense of the term ‘science denier’,,,
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
notes:
Significant-loophole-free test of Bell’s theorem with entangled photons – Dec. 2015 Excerpt page 5: By closing the freedom-of-choice loophole to one natural stopping point—the first moment at which the particles come into existence—we reduce the possible local-realist explanations to truly exotic hypotheses. Any theory seeking to explain our result by exploiting this loophole would require to originate before the emission event and to influence setting choices derived from spontaneous emission. It has been suggested that setting choices determined by events from distant cosmological sources could push this limit back by billions of years [46]. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1511.03190.pdf Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Abstract: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
bornagain77
February 5, 2021
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FYI: I don't think BA's interpretation on Anton Zeilinger's experiments means what he thinks it means. He think it means that humans have libertarian free will. What it really means is that the universe is not superdetermined, and that genuine quantum phenomena, including entanglement and probabilistic outcomes, occur without deterministic "hidden variables". That is why it's often written "free will" loophole, not free will loophole. From Wikipedia, on superdeterminism: In the 1980s, John Bell discussed superdeterminism in a BBC interview:[3][4]
There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the "decision" by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already "knows" what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.
Also, From Wikipedia: "The free will theorem of John H. Conway and Simon B. Kochen states that if we have a free will in the sense that our choices are not a function of the past, then, subject to certain assumptions, so must some elementary particles." That is, our free will to act in ways that are not totally mechanistically determined is a feature of the quantum nature of the universe as whole. How our ability to make non-determined choices arises from that is a metaphysical mystery, but Zeilinger's experiment didn't provide any breakthroughs on that mystery. Ever since the probabilistic nature of quantum events was discovered decades ago, the idea of a complete clockwork universe has been dead, as has been the idea of a deistic God. Zeilinger's work has been instrumental in putting the last nail in the coffin on that. Here are a variety of articles on the situation for those that would like to read more. https://news.mit.edu/2014/closing-the-free-will-loophole-0220 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2017/02/08/quantum-loopholes-and-the-problem-of-free-will/?sh=3a8cc3283ab8 https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/the-universe-made-me-do-it/ http://web.mit.edu/asf/www/Press/Do%20Electrons%20Have%20Free%20Will%20The%20Conway-Kochen%20Free%20Will%20Theorem%20-%20Closing%20the%20Free%20Will%20Loophole.pdfViola Lee
February 5, 2021
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Douglas Adams was a died-in-the-wool atheist who apparently thought it was somehow meaningful to try to convince others how meaningless human existence really is. That’s what his novel Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy is all about. Without going into Adam’s overly convoluted if not silly plot, one of its main character, Arthur Dent, who has been hitch hiking his way through the galaxy finds himself stranded on the planet Magrathea.
On Magrathea… Arthur is met by a man named Slartibartfast, who… [in a] factory workshop… shows Arthur that in the distant past a race of "hyperintelligent, pan-dimensional beings" created a supercomputer named Deep Thought to determine the answer to the "Ultimate Question to Life, the Universe, and Everything." Two philosophers representing a trade association, Majikthise and Vroomfondel, arrived and complained that the computer would remove uncertainty and end their jobs and demanded its deactivation. However, Deep Thought revealed that it would take 7.5 million years to complete calculations and reasoned that during that time they could argue over what the computer's answer will be. 7.5 million years later the philosophers' descendants asked Deep Thought for the answer, which it announces is the number 42. Deep Thought tells its creators that the answer makes no sense to them because they didn't know what the "Ultimate Question" had been in the first place, so he suggested designing an even greater computer to determine what the Ultimate Question was…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_(novel) Silliness aside, the novel raises some of the same questions I am asking on this thread why humans appear to be “hardwired” to ask questions like, what is the ultimate purpose of life, the universe, and everything? I have to agree with Adams if human beings are the result of some mindless purposeless and accidental evolutionary process then questions like that are really quite pointless. At least I think that was point Adams was trying to make. But why in the world would you waste your time on questions like that? How do you know it’s true? Or, is it just something you believe. But if it’s the latter, why would you try to convince anyone else that it was true? As I have said here before, if I were an atheist I’d leave other people alone. There is nothing I could say or do that would be of any help to anyone. Again, Adams has been described as a radical atheist. Richard Dawkins dedicated his 2006 book, The God Delusion, Dawkins to Adams.john_a_designer
February 5, 2021
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On top of all that, and completely contrary to the Copernican Principle and/or the Principle of Mediocrity, in quantum mechanics we also now find that humans, (via their free will), are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. As Steven Weinberg, who is an atheist himself, states in the following article, ‘In the instrumentalist approach (in quantum mechanics) humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level.,,, the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.,,, In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,’
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, https://www.coursehero.com/file/78050243/The-Trouble-with-Quantum-Mechanics-by-Steven-Weinberg-The-New-York-Review-of-Bookspdf/
In fact Weinberg, again an atheist, rejected the instrumentalist approach precisely because “humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level” and because it undermined the Darwinian worldview from within. Yet, regardless of how he and other atheists may prefer the world to behave, quantum mechanics itself could care less how atheists prefer the world to behave. As leading experimentalist Anton Zeilinger states in the following video, “what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.”
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
As well in quantum computing, with what is termed contextuality, we find that, “In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation”
Contextuality is ‘magic ingredient’ for quantum computing – June 11, 2012 Excerpt: Contextuality was first recognized as a feature of quantum theory almost 50 years ago. The theory showed that it was impossible to explain measurements on quantum systems in the same way as classical systems. In the classical world, measurements simply reveal properties that the system had, such as colour, prior to the measurement. In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation. Imagine turning over a playing card. It will be either a red suit or a black suit – a two-outcome measurement. Now imagine nine playing cards laid out in a grid with three rows and three columns. Quantum mechanics predicts something that seems contradictory – there must be an even number of red cards in every row and an odd number of red cards in every column. Try to draw a grid that obeys these rules and you will find it impossible. It’s because quantum measurements cannot be interpreted as merely revealing a pre-existing property in the same way that flipping a card reveals a red or black suit. Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That’s part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. - per physorg
Moreover, although there have been several major loopholes in quantum mechanics over the past several decades that atheists have tried to appeal to in order to try to avoid the ‘spooky’ Theistic implications of quantum mechanics, over the past several years each of those major loopholes have each been closed one by one. The last major loophole that was left to be closed was the “setting independence” and/or the ‘free-will’ loophole:
Closing the ‘free will’ loophole: Using distant quasars to test Bell’s theorem – February 20, 2014 Excerpt: Though two major loopholes have since been closed, a third remains; physicists refer to it as “setting independence,” or more provocatively, “free will.” This loophole proposes that a particle detector’s settings may “conspire” with events in the shared causal past of the detectors themselves to determine which properties of the particle to measure — a scenario that, however far-fetched, implies that a physicist running the experiment does not have complete free will in choosing each detector’s setting. Such a scenario would result in biased measurements, suggesting that two particles are correlated more than they actually are, and giving more weight to quantum mechanics than classical physics. “It sounds creepy, but people realized that’s a logical possibility that hasn’t been closed yet,” says MIT’s David Kaiser, the Germeshausen Professor of the History of Science and senior lecturer in the Department of Physics. “Before we make the leap to say the equations of quantum theory tell us the world is inescapably crazy and bizarre, have we closed every conceivable logical loophole, even if they may not seem plausible in the world we know today?” - per science daily
And now Anton Zeilinger and company have recently, as of 2018, pushed the ‘free will loophole’ back to 7.8 billion years ago, thereby firmly establishing the ‘common sense’ fact that the free will choices of the experimenter in the quantum experiments are truly free and are not determined by any possible causal influences from the past for at least the last 7.8 billion years, and that the experimenters themselves are therefore shown to be truly free to choose whatever measurement settings in the experiments that he or she may so desire to choose so as to ‘logically’ probe whatever aspect of reality that he or she may be interested in probing.
Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Abstract: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
Thus regardless of how Steven Weinberg and other atheists may prefer the universe to behave, with the closing of the last remaining free will loophole in quantum mechanics, “humans are indeed brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level”, and thus these recent findings from quantum mechanics directly undermine, as Weinberg himself stated, the “vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.” Moreover, besides Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, (our two most powerful theories in science), overturning the Copernican principle, the Copernican principle has also been overturned by considering relative sizes in the universe, i.e. scaling from the smallest to the largest sizes, and the Copernican principle has also been overturned by recent anomalies that have been found in the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). Here is a link to a post where I go over all of these scientific evidences overturning the Copernican principle in more detail.
despite the fact that virtually everyone, including the vast majority of Christians, hold that the Copernican Principle is unquestionably true, the fact of the matter is that the Copernican Principle is now empirically shown, (via quantum mechanics and general relativity, etc..), to be a false assumption. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/new-edition-of-inference-review-features-richard-buggs-james-shapiro-and-larry-krauss/#comment-713367
And thus while the universe may 'suggest' to Weinberg and Hawking, (and other atheists), that humans are just chemical scum, as far as our best science can tell us, humans, in fact, have far more significance in the universe than the universe itself would seem to suggest at first glance to Weinberg and Hawking. And as I further pointed out in my recent video, with human observers, via their free will, now being brought into the laws of nature at their most fundamental level then it now becomes, at least, theoretically plausible for God, via his son Jesus Christ, to bridge the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.
John 6:38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
,,, when we rightly the Agent Causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,, and when we rightly allow the Agent Causality of God back into physics as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company, then that provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. And as I further pointed out in my recent video, the Shroud of Turin does indeed provide evidence that both Gravity and Quantum Mechanics were dealt with. ,,, As I concluded in my video,,, So thus in conclusion, when we rightly allow the Agent Causality of God back into physics then a very plausible solution to the number one unsolved mystery in science today, of finding a reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, readily pops out for us in that, as the Shroud of Turin gives witness to, both Gravity and Quantum Mechanics were dealt with in Christ’s resurrection from the dead.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
February 5, 2021
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John_a_designer, thanks for that post. It was good that Weinberg qualified his belief that our lives are meaningless with, i.e. “(not) that science teaches us that the universe is pointless, but that the universe itself suggests no point” What 'suggestion' of the universe, (not of science), is Weinberg possibly alluding to? Well, not having read Weinberg's book, I have to assume it is the same 'suggestion' that Hawking alluded to. As Hawking put it, the universe seems to suggest that we are just "chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet, orbiting around a very average star in the outer suburb of one among a hundred billion galaxies. We are so insignificant that I can't believe the whole universe exists for our benefit."
“The human race is just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet, orbiting around a very average star in the outer suburb of one among a hundred billion galaxies. We are so insignificant that I can't believe the whole universe exists for our benefit. That would be like saying that you would disappear if I closed my eyes.” - Stephen Hawking
But this simplistic suggestion of the universe is NOT what the science itself has to say about our significance in the universe. In fact, as I pointed out in my recent video, "Jesus Christ as the correct "Theory of Everything",,,
Jesus Christ as the correct "Theory of Everything" - video https://youtu.be/Vpn2Vu8--eE
as I pointed out in that video,,,, The Copernican principle and/or the Principle of Mediocrity, was derived from Copernican heliocentrism and is the assumption that there is nothing very unusual or special about the earth in general, or about human observers in particular, in this universe:
Copernican principle Excerpt: In physical cosmology, the Copernican principle, is an alternative name of the mediocrity principle,,, stating that humans (the Earth, or the Solar system) are not privileged observers of the universe.[1] Named for Copernican heliocentrism, it is a working assumption that arises from a modified cosmological extension of Copernicus’s argument of a moving Earth.[2] In some sense, it is equivalent to the mediocrity principle. - per wikipedia Carl Sagan coined the term ‘principle of mediocrity’ to refer to the idea that scientists should assume that nothing is special about humanity’s situation https://books.google.com/books?id=rR5BCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA187#v=onepage&q&f=false Mediocrity principle Excerpt: The (Mediocrity) principle has been taken to suggest that there is nothing very unusual about the evolution of the Solar System, Earth’s history, the evolution of biological complexity, human evolution, or any one nation. It is a heuristic in the vein of the Copernican principle, and is sometimes used as a philosophical statement about the place of humanity. The idea is to assume mediocrity, rather than starting with the assumption that a phenomenon is special, privileged, exceptional, or even superior.[2][3] - per wikipedia
And yet, despite the fact that virtually everyone, including the vast majority of Christians, hold that the Copernican Principle is unquestionably true, and that there is nothing special about the earth or humans in this universe, the fact of the matter is that the Copernican Principle is now shown, by both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, to be a false assumption. General Relativity itself does not care if we choose the earth, or the sun, or any other place in the universe, as the central point for our model of the universe. As George Ellis stated, “I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations… You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds…”
“People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations… For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations… You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds… What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.” – George Ellis – W. Wayt Gibbs, “Profile: George F. R. Ellis,” Scientific American, October 1995, Vol. 273, No.4, p. 55
And as Stephen Hawking himself explained, ‘our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest.,,, the real advantage of the Copernican system is simply that the equations of motion are much simpler in the frame of reference in which the sun is at rest.’
“So which is real, the Ptolemaic or Copernican system? Although it is not uncommon for people to say that Copernicus proved Ptolemy wrong, that is not true. As in the case of our normal view versus that of the goldfish, one can use either picture as a model of the universe, for our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest. Despite its role in philosophical debates over the nature of our universe, the real advantage of the Copernican system is simply that the equations of motion are much simpler in the frame of reference in which the sun is at rest.” - Stephen Hawking – The Grand Design – pages 39 – 2010
And as Fred Hoyle stated, “Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is ‘right’ and the Ptolemaic theory ‘wrong’ in any meaningful physical sense.”
“The relation of the two pictures [geocentrism and geokineticism] is reduced to a mere coordinate transformation and it is the main tenet of the Einstein theory that any two ways of looking at the world which are related to each other by a coordinate transformation are entirely equivalent from a physical point of view…. Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is ‘right’ and the Ptolemaic theory ‘wrong’ in any meaningful physical sense.” - Hoyle, Fred. Nicolaus Copernicus. London: Heinemann Educational Books Ltd., 1973.
And even as Einstein himself stated, ‘The two sentences: “the sun is at rest and the earth moves” or “the sun moves and the earth is at rest” would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS [coordinate systems].”
“Can we formulate physical laws so that they are valid for all CS [coordinate systems], not only those moving uniformly, but also those moving quite arbitrarily, relative to each other? […] The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: “the sun is at rest and the earth moves” or “the sun moves and the earth is at rest” would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS.” - Einstein, A. and Infeld, L. (1938) The Evolution of Physics, p.212 (p.248 in original 1938 ed.);
As far as general relativity is concerned, there simply is no empirical, i.e. scientific, reason to prefer the sun, or any other place in the universe, as being central in the universe over and above the earth being considered central in the universe. In fact, as far as empirical science itself is concerned, in the 4 dimensional spacetime of Einstein’s General Relativity, we find that each 3-Dimensional point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe,,,
Where is the centre of the universe?: Excerpt: There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a “Big Bang” about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualized as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
,,, and since any 3-Dimensional point can be considered central in the expanding 4-Dimensional space time of General Relativity, then, as the following article makes clear, it is now left completely open to whomever is making a model of the universe to decide for themselves what is to be considered central in the universe,,,
How Einstein Revealed the Universe’s Strange “Nonlocality” – George Musser - Oct 20, 2015 Excerpt: Under most circumstances, we can ignore this nonlocality. You can designate some available chunk of matter as a reference point and use it to anchor a coordinate grid. You can, to the chagrin of Santa Barbarans, take Los Angeles as the center of the universe and define every other place with respect to it. In this framework, you can go about your business in blissful ignorance of space’s fundamental inability to demarcate locations.,, In short, Einstein’s theory is nonlocal in a more subtle and insidious way than Newton’s theory of gravity was. Newtonian gravity acted at a distance, but at least it operated within a framework of absolute space. Einsteinian gravity has no such element of wizardry; its effects ripple through the universe at the speed of light. Yet it demolishes the framework, violating locality in what was, for Einstein, its most basic sense: the stipulation that all things have a location. General relativity confounds our intuitive picture of space as a kind of container in which material objects reside and forces us to search for an entirely new conception of place. - per scientific American
In fact, since each 3-Dimensional point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe, and since no matter where you stand, it will appear that everything in the universe is expanding around you. Then even individual people can be considered to be central in the universe,,,
You Technically Are the Center of the Universe – May 2016 Excerpt: (due to the 1 in 10^120 finely tuned expansion of the 4-D space-time of General Relativity) no matter where you stand, it will appear that everything in the universe is expanding around you. So the center of the universe is technically — everywhere. The moment you pick a frame of reference, that point becomes the center of the universe. Here’s another way to think about it: The sphere of space we can see around us is the visible universe. We’re looking at the light from stars that’s traveled millions or billions of years to reach us. When we reach the 13.8 billion-light-year point, we’re seeing the universe just moments after the Big Bang happened. But someone standing on another planet, a few light-years to the right, would see a different sphere of the universe. It’s sort of like lighting a match in the middle of a dark room: Your observable universe is the sphere of the room that the light illuminates. But someone standing in a different spot in the room will be able to see a different sphere. So technically, we are all standing at the center of our own observable universes. https://mic.com/articles/144214/you-technically-are-the-center-of-the-universe-thanks-to-a-wacky-physics-quirk
,,, Moreover, when Einstein first formulated both Special and General relativity, he gave a ‘hypothetical’ observer a privileged frame of reference in which to make measurements in the universe.
"Einstein’s approach was based on thought experiments, calculations, and the principle of relativity, which is the notion that all physical laws should appear the same (that is, take the same basic form) to all inertial observers.,,, Each observer has a distinct “frame of reference” in which velocities are measured,,,," ,,, Introduction to special relativity The happiest thought of my life. Excerpt: In 1920 Einstein commented that a thought came into his mind when writing the above-mentioned paper he called it “the happiest thought of my life”: “The gravitational field has only a relative existence… Because for an observer freely falling from the roof of a house – at least in his immediate surroundings – there exists no gravitational field.” https://aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p10/gr/Thehappiestthoughtofmylife.html
And whereas Einstein, when he first formulated both Special and General Relativity, gave a ‘hypothetical’ observer a privileged frame of reference in which to make measurements, In Quantum Mechanics we find that it is the measurement itself that gives each observer a privileged frame of reference in the universe. As the following article states, “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”,,,
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness – May 27, 2015 Excerpt: Common sense says the object is either wave-like or particle-like, independent of how we measure it. But quantum physics predicts that whether you observe wave like behavior (interference) or particle behavior (no interference) depends only on how it is actually measured at the end of its journey. This is exactly what the ANU team found. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said Associate Professor Andrew Truscott from the ANU Research School of Physics and Engineering. http://phys.org/news/2015-05-quantum-theory-weirdness.html
Likewise, the following violation of Leggett’s inequality stressed ‘the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it.’
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.” http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
Moreover, this recent 2019 experimental confirmation of the “Wigner’s Friend” thought experiment established that “measurement results,, must be understood relative to the observer who performed the measurement”.
More Than One Reality Exists (in Quantum Physics) By Mindy Weisberger – March 20, 2019 Excerpt: “measurement results,, must be understood relative to the observer who performed the measurement”. https://www.livescience.com/65029-dueling-reality-photons.html
Because of such consistent and repeatable experiments like the preceding from quantum mechanics, Richard Conn Henry, who is Professor of Physics at John Hopkins University, stated “It is more than 80 years since the discovery of quantum mechanics gave us the most fundamental insight ever into our nature: the overturning of the Copernican Revolution, and the restoration of us human beings to centrality in the Universe.”
“It is more than 80 years since the discovery of quantum mechanics gave us the most fundamental insight ever into our nature: the overturning of the Copernican Revolution, and the restoration of us human beings to centrality in the Universe. And yet, have you ever before read a sentence having meaning similar to that of my preceding sentence? Likely you have not, and the reason you have not is, in my opinion, that physicists are in a state of denial, and have fears and agonies that are very similar to the fears and agonies that Copernicus and Galileo went through with their perturbations of society.” - Richard Conn Henry – Professor of Physics – John Hopkins University
I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 3-Dimensional state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas the 4-Dimensional space-time cosmology of General Relativity tells us that each 3-Dimensional point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everyone's prayers at the same time?”,,, In other words, why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe:
Hebrews 4:13 "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to Whom we must give account." Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. Psalm 139:7-12 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.
bornagain77
February 5, 2021
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The famous Cambridge University physicist Stephen Hawking once observed, “The human race is just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet, orbiting around a very average star in the outer suburb of one among a hundred billion galaxies.” (STEPHEN HAWKING, Reality on the Rocks: Beyond Our Ken, 1995) It appears to me that a lot of atheists agree that when you honestly look at man’s place in the universe it’s really rather pointless. For example, in his book, The First Three Minutes: A Modern View of the Origin of the Universe, Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg writes: “It is almost irresistible for humans to believe that we have some special relation to the universe, that human life is not just a more-or-less farcical outcome of a chain of accidents reaching back to the first three minutes, but that we are somehow built in from the beginning… It is very hard to realize that this is all just a tiny part of an overwhelmingly hostile universe. It is even harder to realize that this present universe has evolved from an unspeakably unfamiliar early condition, and faces a future extinction of endless cold or intolerable heat. The more the universe seems comprehensible the more it seems pointless.” (p.144) I would suggest that Weinberg was trying to play, perhaps unwittingly, a subtle bait and switch game here. This paragraph appears at the end of a book which is purportedly a book about following the chain of scientific evidence back to the very first few minutes of the universe. I have no problem with that. Weinberg is a Nobel Prize winning physicist. By vocation he has the credentials, the knowledge and expertise to explain how the universe evolved. He is not, however, any more qualified than anybody else to tell us what it all means. And, at least in academia, such questions are the province of philosophers and theologians not physicists. The paragraph did not go unnoticed and Weinberg soon became aware that he had crossed an invisible boundary line into disputed territory. Fifteen years later in another book, Dreams of a Final Theory, he admits that phrase “the more the universe seems comprehensible the more it seems pointless,” had dogged him ever since. He then vainly tries to explain what he really meant. “I did not mean,” he writes, “that science teaches us that the universe is pointless, but that the universe itself suggests no point.” He then adds that he doesn’t see life as pointless or meaningless but that as scientists and people we can “invent a point for our lives, including trying to understand the universe.” He then goes on to describe the reaction of some of his colleagues to his infamous little phrase. For example, Harvard astronomer Margaret Geller, opines, “Why should it have a point? What point? It is just a physical system, what point is there?” Princeton astrophysicist Jim Peebles was willing to take the implications a bit further. He says, “I am willing to believe that we are flotsam and jetsam.” However, Weinberg writes that his favorite response came from University of Texas astronomer Gerard de Vaucouleurs who remarked that Weinberg’s phrase was actually “nostalgic.” “Indeed it was,” Weinberg concedes, “nostalgic for a world in which the heavens declared the glory of God.” He then goes on to explain. “It would be wonderful to find in the laws of nature a plan prepared by a concerned creator in which human beings played some special role. I find sadness in doubting that we will. There are some among my scientific colleagues who say that the contemplation of nature gives them all the spiritual satisfaction that others have traditionally found in a belief in an interested God. Some of them may even really feel that way. I do not. And it does not seem to me to be helpful to identify the laws of nature as Einstein did with some sort of remote and disinterested God. The more we refine our understanding of God to make the concept plausible, the more it seems to be pointless.” Weinberg’s sentiment is obviously atheistic. But is his atheism the result of what he has discovered out there in the universe? Or, does he see the universe the way he does because of the preconceptions that he has as an atheist? I would argue that it is the latter. Einstein also wrote something about the meaning of life that I think is pertinent here... “What is the meaning of human life, or, for that matter, of the life of any creature? To know the answer to this question means to be religious. You ask: Does it make any sense, then, to pose this question? I answer: The man who regards his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unhappy but hardly fit for life.” My conclusion here is very straight forward. If God created the universe it has a purpose and meaning. On the other hand, if something mindless and impersonal is the cause the universe, it is hard to say, as Hawking and Weinberg have conceded, that there is any real or ultimate meaning for the universe or our existence. *That human beings are purpose driven is a third undeniable factor about human nature. See my list above @ #43.john_a_designer
February 5, 2021
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And AGAIN, election fraud was found. "They" just said, without evidence, that it wasn't enough to change the outcome of the election.ET
February 5, 2021
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Acartia Stevie:
When are you going to discipline ET?
For what? I treat rude, insipid trolls accordingly.ET
February 5, 2021
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JAD, the ironic thing is that Darwin used that note with a twist, he was trying to undermine doubts on his theory which he believed was robustly supported empirically. So, by donning the lab coat he hoped to dismiss philosophical objections while avoiding self referential incoherence. Of course, we don't have the empirical support, once we realised the challenge of complex algorithmically functional information from molecular noise and trial and error on steroids. The only empirically warranted source for such is intelligence; which we know cannot be a human monopoly. As for reliance on deep abstract reasoning and its extension to the real world, ponder Wigner's astonishment at the success of Mathematics. (And yes, that linked article is pivotal.) That is, the nature, universal utility and powerful success of Mathematics are direct disproofs of Darwin's attempted dismissal of complex abstruse reasoning by jumped up apes from the East African savannahs, inconvenient to his theory. You can have your mathematics with its track record of success or you can have your crude evolutionary materialistic determinism and refusal to attend to the significance of linguistic, coded, complex algorithmic information in the living cell. You cannot have both. We are back to the civilisation-shaping force of inescapable first duties of reason and the implication that we are under the government of a built in law coeval with our humanity. That is, laws of nature clearly extends beyond the dynamic-stochastic physical world to the morally governed rationality of significantly free creatures, us. Thence, the Ciceronian, law as highest reason, morally governed human nature framework for law, government and civilisation. KFkairosfocus
February 4, 2021
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SA2, the tangents are duly noted. They will not be further followed. The focal topic is of civilisational importance, your evident inability to significantly address same is duly noted. KF PS: Wikipedia, testifying against interest on censorship:
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient."[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by governments,[5] private institutions, and other controlling bodies. Governments[5] and private organizations may engage in censorship. Other groups or institutions may propose and petition for censorship.[6] When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is referred to as self-censorship. General censorship occurs in a variety of different media, including speech, books, music, films, and other arts, the press, radio, television, and the Internet for a variety of claimed reasons including national security, to control obscenity, child pornography, and hate speech, to protect children or other vulnerable groups, to promote or restrict political or religious views, and to prevent slander and libel. Direct censorship may or may not be legal, depending on the type, location, and content. Many countries provide strong protections against censorship by law, but none of these protections are absolute and frequently a claim of necessity to balance conflicting rights is made, in order to determine what could and could not be censored.
The pivotal point, of course is only those with sufficient power to dominate communication can censor. Which is precisely what the network economics and domination games by key tech giants has set up. They are heading for a fall -- eventually, likely through antitrust action, if Bell was too big as definitely a platform, these are far more dangerous as platforms playing at censorship -- and they deserve to fall. I hope that the successors will be sufficiently diverse that liberty will be better protected. PPS: As for assertions and projections on false claims regarding the past US election, I simply note the incidence of a readily manipulable, destabilising form of ballot and its election-switching impact, 69 millions of 150 roughly. The fact that there is a suspicious lack of concern on the obvious potential already speaks, multiplied by obvious intimidation against pointing out dangers. Further to such, there is an attempt to institutionalise such; ponder what that says to someone who cut his intellectual eye teeth dealing with the history of the third reich . . . including, of course how Herr Schicklegruber seized power by taking advantage of the Reichstag fire . . . and a rising 4th gen civil war pushed by marxists while attending a marxism dominated uni. For reference on public facts regarding such, see the Philadelphia court ruling reported on in NYT in 1994 and the report in congressional archive on the Ukraine elections in 2004. Multiply by McFaul dirty form colour revolutions and the SOCOM insurgency escalator. All of which you and others of like ilk have conspicuously failed to address substantially and cogently when discussed in threads totalling nearly 5,000 comments over two months, while the fire was burning. That failure on the merits is already decisive against your narrative. Notice,further, a key requisite for a dirty colour revolution is narrative domination, which is only accessible to those who dominate the media; which is certainly not the case for the deplorables, this already brings out the significance of sing off the hymn sheet narratives and implied cognitive dissonance confession by projection to the despised deplorables. The ginned up unconstitutional post-office impeachment in progress shows the lawless agenda at work for those willing to look. Of course, discernment belongs to those who by reason of use have senses exercised to distinguish good and evil, true and false, lawfulness and abuses under false colour of law, etc etc, all of which are increasingly sadly relevant. Red flag, for those willing to attend to such warnings.kairosfocus
February 4, 2021
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Modern naturalists believe that the human mind with its thoughts, knowledge, opinions and beliefs is all just the result of a mindless and purposeless evolutionary process. However, the raises the question: Can a mindless process give us reliable knowledge and beliefs? Charles Darwin appears to have also been disturbed by this question. He wrote in a letter to a friend:
"With me," says Darwin, "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"
Patricia Churchland, a philosopher who specializes in issues raised by cognitive science, has argued that the way our nervous system and brain evolved they cannot be expected to give reliable knowledge and beliefs.
“Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four F's: feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principle chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive. . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival [Churchland's emphasis]. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.”
According to retired University of Notre Dame philosopher Alvin Plantinga, “Darwin and Churchland seem to believe that (naturalistic) evolution gives one a reason to doubt that human cognitive faculties are reliable (produce mostly true beliefs): call this 'Darwin's Doubt'.” Plantinga, on the other hand, argues that:
“The traditional theist… has no corresponding reason for doubting that it is a purpose of our cognitive systems to produce true beliefs, nor any reason for thinking the probability of a belief's being true, given that it is a product of her cognitive faculties, is low or inscrutable. She may indeed endorse some form of evolution; but if she does, it will be a form of evolution guided and orchestrated by God. And qua traditional theist -- qua Jewish, Moslem, or Christian theist - she believes that God is the premier knower and has created us human beings in his image, an important part of which involves his giving them what is needed to have knowledge, just as he does.”
In other words, theism provides a sufficient foundation for truth and knowledge. Philosophical naturalism/materialism, on the other hand… ? PS Usually discussions about "natural law" focus on natural moral law but natural law has just as much to do with epistemology-- the search for reliable knowledge and truth.john_a_designer
February 4, 2021
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Kairosfocus “ In the case of your attempt to insinuate improper censorship on my part,...” I don’t know what you are reading but it definitely isn’t anything I wrote. What you do would be censorship if people looked to you for fair and unbiased presentations, but that is not the case. “ Where of course deliberately rude, disrespectful or sewer conduct is cause to exert reasonable discipline. ” I agree. When are you going to discipline ET? “ Where you neatly neglect to mention that we held our noses and tolerated a discussion on subjects that seem to be an obsession of some, some time ago.” Yes, I agree that I have an obsession with equal rights and access to services and opportunities for all those who lead an innocent life. That you have to hold your nose over this obsession is a rather strange thing to admit. “ On the wider issue, there is a distinction between platforms and publishers. Once one crosses that line one is properly responsible for content under defamation law.” I agree. And news outlets are held accountable. That is why FOX and other outlets had to publish corrections with regard to their false claims of election fraud. Unfortunately, Twitter, FB and other online forums are not as accountable as they should be. But, to their credit, they do have conditions for those posting and they will cancel accounts if they violate these terms. The problem is that, because of the immense traffic, they have to rely on others to point out violations.Steve Alten2
February 4, 2021
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Acartia Stevie:
Freedom of speech is an obligation on government,...
Exactly! The current US government is heavily Democratic, with the Democrats having the White House and both the House and Senate. The Democrats are the people in power. They are suppressing dissent. They are spreading lies. The President has been lying for decades but since his last name isn't Trump, it's all OK. The left is full of power-hungry bullies, cowardly censors, sociopaths and pathological liars.ET
February 4, 2021
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The best current example is that free speech is what those currently in power say people are free to express.
I doubt anyone in their right mind thinks that anyone on this site has any power. People have been provoking the moderators here since day 1 looking to be censored in some fashion so they can shout hypocrisy. On this site there is about 30 commenters and 10 authors. Hardly a place of any power. But government and certainly some news outlets have power. Twitter would qualify as a news outlet with considerable power. So would Facebook. Amazon, Google and Apple demonstrated power in limiting who can make ideas available by restricting app availability. Yet each continues to increase their power by acquisitions. This is not healthy. Anyone denying this is not a power grab is disingenuous at best. By the way, the left has been provoking for years looking for some response so they can claim a national emergency to crack down. We are seeing their plan play out before our eyes.jerry
February 4, 2021
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SA2, classic legal positivism error, joined to attempted invidious association. Man is naturally free in thought, speech and action, where justice is due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Due balance, BTW implies mutuality. In the case of your attempt to insinuate improper censorship on my part, instantly, UD does not hold monopoly power or near monopoly power over speech, or control the de facto public square. Only those with power to silence like that can censor. Where of course deliberately rude, disrespectful or sewer conduct is cause to exert reasonable discipline. Where you neatly neglect to mention that we held our noses and tolerated a discussion on subjects that seem to be an obsession of some, some time ago. There is no good reason to go there again, or to allow every thread of consequence to be dragged down into such. Your personality fails and through what you confess by projection, tells us a lot. On the wider issue, there is a distinction between platforms and publishers. Once one crosses that line one is properly responsible for content under defamation law. As well, viewpoint discrimination (especially when backed, as now with Reichstag fire slanders and purges in progress . . . ) from those with actual censorship power is damaging to the public interest. Section 230 is being turned into a weapon to weaken resistance to the slide into lawless ideological oligarchy. So, you stand corrected and exposed yet again for resort to trollish behaviour. KFkairosfocus
February 4, 2021
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Jerry "The best current example is that free speech is what those currently in power say people are free to express." Freedom of speech is an obligation on government, not on individuals or companies. UD occasionally bans people or removes their comments. This is not a violation of free speech. The government is not going to prosecute me for anything I say unless it is insightful of violence or hate. And UD is not going to be prosecuted by government because they choose to ban people or delete their comments. We can certainly argue over whether individuals or organizations blocking comments by some people is an appropriate approach, but to argue that it is a violation of free speech is a non-starter. Twitter blocking Trump's account is no more a violation of his free speech than Kairosfocus deleting comments on UD is.Steve Alten2
February 4, 2021
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Jerry, the issue is the is-ought gap. That someone violates duties does not mean s/he denies them, there is such a thing as moral struggle and growth. Such even applies to murder. KF PS, appeal to power is the opposite of justice. Power tends to corrupt.kairosfocus
February 4, 2021
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The point is that just because someone doesn’t believe the Bible or have a religion it doesn’t follow there are no objective moral obligations. Ironically that is actually a biblical teaching.
I pointed out that people kill their nearest relations for personal reasons. Look no further than the sons of Jacob and David. And David was no angel either. So somehow they didn't get it. Nor did most of mankind including a lot of Christian kings. It doesn't seem to be completely widespread in our culture either or any other cultures since the beginning of time. I can't think of one. For nearly all, power determines what is right or moral. The best current example is that free speech is what those currently in power say people are free to express. This is two comment boxes in a row.jerry
February 4, 2021
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Unfortunately, many of our interlocutors have a very distorted if not cartoonish view of what most of us who advocate objective morality are arguing. Many of us here, including me, are not starting with the Bible we’re starting with natural law. The main quote we use when we quote from the Bible is Paul’s teaching in Roman’s 2:14 &15 where he argues “when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them…” In other words, Paul is saying that all humans have access to natural law through their hearts and conscience. Whether or not it’s written down somewhere, there is a morally binding (or “objective”) natural law. Peter Kreeft gives a very clear and concise explanation of what natural law is in the following linked article:
What is natural law and why is it important? Moral laws are based on human nature. That is, what we ought to do is based on what we are. “Thou shalt not kill,” for instance, is based on the real value of human life and the need to preserve it. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is based on the real value of marriage and family, the value of mutual self-giving love, and children’s need for trust and stability. The natural law is also naturally known, by natural human reason and experience. We don’t need religious faith or supernatural divine revelation to know that we’re morally obligated to choose good and avoid evil or to know what “good” and “evil” mean… Speaking of pagans [or gentiles,] St. Paul says that “they show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness” (Rom 2:15). The term “natural law” is sometimes misunderstood. “This law is called ‘natural,’ not in reference to the nature of irrational beings [that is, animals — it is not a law of biology], “but because reason, which decrees it, properly belongs to human nature”…
http://legatus.org/what-is-natural-law-and-why-is-it-important/ See also: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-law-ethics/ The point is that just because someone doesn’t believe the Bible or have a religion it doesn’t follow there are no objective moral obligations. Ironically that is actually a biblical teaching.john_a_designer
February 4, 2021
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I am not claiming that everything that anyone claims to be genetic or INBORN is genetic or inborn. I am using hardwired very narrowly as those capabilities that most humans are born with.
This is what I was saying in #4 and #8.jerry
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