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L & FP, 49-i: The Reichstag Fire-panic lesson on agit prop and lawfare

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The Reichstag Fire, Feb 27, 1933

Vivid recently reminded us of the painful, bloody lesson of history taught by Hitler’s seizure of power in 1933. I responded, noting:

[I]sn’t it interesting that the Reichstag Fire crisis isn’t a standard part of our general education package. It almost makes one wonder why it is that the story of how the most universally acknowledged unmitigatedly evil dictator seized absolute power through agit prop and lawfare is somehow pushed to the margins of our common fund of knowledge. Not quite a conspiracy of silencing but at least a common evasion of plain duty by those who inform and educate us. Ironically, on a topic where learning this is vital to defending our civilisation, the common thought association fed by dominant narratives will be that appeal to Hitler is fallacious and demonising. Not when it is manifestly relevant and counter-balances a narrative that actually does just such a demonisation . . .

I think it is important enough to actually put up a summary, and I further noted:

This is one time when Wikipedia’s admissions are at minimum relevant and mostly on target food for thought. (I think it is most likely that Hitler and co opportunistically exploited an ill-advised violent protest action by a likely half-mad youth IIRC one week before an election was due, to set an agit prop and lawfare juggernaut loose; that is, I don’t accept the perception that the Nazis set the fire themselves as a false flag operation . . . they were however primed to pounce on and use any convenient incident they could frame through narrative and institutional domination. The consequences were horrific.)

Accordingly, let us learn from that oh so humble source, Wikipedia, as it is forced by a forest of facts to admit:

The Reichstag fire (German: Reichstagsbrand, About this soundlisten (help·info)) was an arson attack on the Reichstag building, home of the German parliament in Berlin, on Monday 27 February 1933, precisely four weeks after Adolf Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor of Germany. Hitler’s government stated that Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch council communist, was the culprit, and it attributed the fire to communist agitators. A German court decided later that year that Van der Lubbe had acted alone, as he had claimed. The day after the fire, the Reichstag Fire Decree was passed. The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext to claim that communists were plotting against the German government, which made the fire pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany.

The first report of the fire came shortly after 9:00 p.m., when a Berlin fire station received an alarm call.[1] By the time police and firefighters arrived, the lower house ‘Chamber of Deputies’ was engulfed in flames. The police conducted a thorough search inside the building and accused Van der Lubbe. He was arrested, as were four communist leaders soon after. Hitler urged President Paul von Hindenburg to issue an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties and pursue a “ruthless confrontation” with the Communist Party of Germany.[2] After the decree was issued, the government instituted mass arrests of communists, including all of the Communist Party’s parliamentary delegates. With their bitter rival communists gone and their seats empty, the Nazi Party went from having a plurality to a majority, thus enabling Hitler to consolidate his power . . . .

After the November 1932 German federal election, the Nazi Party had a plurality, not a majority; the Communists posted gains.[7] Adolf Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor and head of the coalition government on 30 January 1933.[8] As chancellor, Hitler asked President Paul von Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag and call for a new parliamentary election. The date set for the elections was 5 March 1933.[9]

Hitler hoped to abolish democracy in a more or less legal fashion, by passing the Enabling Act. The Enabling Act was a special law that gave the Chancellor the power to pass laws by decree, without the involvement of the Reichstag. These special powers would remain in effect for four years, after which time they were eligible to be renewed. Under the Weimar Constitution, the President could rule by decree in times of emergency using Article 48.[10] During the election campaign, the Nazis alleged that Germany was on the verge of a Communist revolution and that the only way to stop the Communists was to put the Nazis securely in power . . . .

The day after the fire, at Hitler’s request, President Hindenburg signed the Reichstag Fire Decree into law by using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany, including habeas corpus, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right of free association and public assembly, and the secrecy of the post and telephone.[18] These rights were not reinstated during Nazi reign. The decree was used by the Nazis to ban publications not considered “friendly” to the Nazi cause. Despite the fact that Marinus van der Lubbe claimed to have acted alone in the Reichstag fire, Hitler, after having obtained his emergency powers, announced that it was the start of a Communist plot to take over Germany. Nazi Party newspapers then published this fabricated “news”.[18] This sent the German population into a panic and isolated the Communists further among the civilians; additionally, thousands of Communists were imprisoned in the days following the fire (including leaders of the Communist Party of Germany) on the charge that the Party was preparing to stage a putsch. Speaking to Rudolph Diels about Communists during the Reichstag fire, Hitler said “These sub-humans do not understand how the people stand at our side. In their mouse-holes, out of which they now want to come, of course they hear nothing of the cheering of the masses.”[19] With Communist electoral participation also suppressed (the Communists previously polled 17% of the vote), the Nazis were able to increase their share of the vote in the 5 March 1933 Reichstag elections from 33% to 44%.[20] This gave the Nazis and their allies, the German National People’s Party (who won 8% of the vote), a majority of 52% in the Reichstag.[20]

While the Nazis emerged with a majority, they fell short of their goal, which was to win 50–55% of the vote that year.[20] The Nazis thought that this would make it difficult to achieve their next goal, passage of the Enabling Act giving Hitler the right to rule by decree, which required a two-thirds majority.[20] However, several important factors weighed in the Nazis’ favour, mainly the continued suppression of the Communist Party and the Nazis’ ability to capitalize on national security concerns. Moreover, some deputies of the Social Democratic Party (the only party that would vote against the Enabling Act) were prevented from taking their seats in the Reichstag, due to arrests and intimidation by the Nazi SA. As a result, the Social Democratic Party would be under-represented in the final vote tally. The Enabling Act passed easily on 23 March 1933, with the support of the right-wing German National People’s Party, the Centre Party, and several fragmented middle-class parties. The measure went into force on 24 March, effectively making Hitler dictator of Germany.[21]

The Kroll Opera House, sitting across the Königsplatz from the burned-out Reichstag building, functioned as the Reichstag’s venue for the remaining 12 years of the Third Reich’s existence.[22]

We could say to the latter, an appropriate venue.

Many sobering lessons lurk here, starting with, beware of being trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea. One may be trapped into a false dilemma, especially if one is not thinking straight due to how one is being manipulated by dirty big money and its bought and paid for spokesmen (who will of course have impeccable credentials). Frankly, the historical microcosm for such is Acts 27, taking the text there simply as a slice of literature, here, history, from the classical world.

In that context, I beg us to understand that the Left-Centre-Right [LCR] political spectrum model that dominates popular and even academic thought is deeply flawed, lending itself to manipulation of the perceived centre of safety:

So, instead, let us learn the lesson of the dirty Overton Window game:

The key thing to recall, is that given the sad history of Athenian democracy and the Peloponnesian war, as well as Ac 27 and much more recent history, democracies are inherently unstable though they also provide for otherwise unprecedented freedom with a good measure of protective order.

For such to happen, there must be stabilising cultural buttresses that lie beyond the rough and tumble of dirty, manipulative politics [thus, the inherent danger of totalising materialistic and/or radically secularist ideologies that are amoral and/or invite nihilism], and which provide a framework of moral guidance tied to core, built-in human characteristics of being morally governed. That, in turn, is why modern constitutional democracy emerged in the matrix of what was then self-consciously Christendom, as we can see reflected in Locke’s key remarks in his second essay on civil government:

[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov’t, Ch 2 sec. 5:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: “14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . “ and 13: “9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . “ Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]

Hence, too, the power of Plato’s warning in The Laws, Book X:

Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . . [The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos — the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ –> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

[ –> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by “winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . ” cf a video on Plato’s parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

[ –> Evolutionary materialism — having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT — leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for “OUGHT” is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in “spin”), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . ]

and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ –> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ –> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush — as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [–> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

Hitler and co, also, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and co, have underscored the force of this over the past century. If we are instead to find a road of sound reformation, we would be well advised to look elsewhere. Wiberforce, for example, or Knibb, or Booth.

But then, that is always a challenge, one compounded enormously in a highly ideologised, deeply polarised increasingly radically secularist age. Such does not bode well, but we need to at least be aware before the needless storm. END

F/N, U/D Aug 8: Please please please falsify this message . . . if true this is beyond ridiculous:

U/D, 2:30 pm, Status, essentially confirmed. It is clear that there is unwillingness to recognise how abuse-prone such a system is.

F/N2: The hate behind the attack on Christians gathering in families for prayer is blatant:

Particularly note the turnabout projection of hate, labelling by invidious association and assumption that the stigmatised scapegoats — this includes families with children forfeit basic rights. This, is red guard rioting.

F/N3: Interview with Andy Ngo on Antifa

F/N4, Aug 11, a reminder on the McFaul Colour Revolution framework and the SOCOM insurgency escalator. First, the US State Dept report and Congressional Archive on abuse of mail-in voting in Ukraine, 2004 — I extensively highlighted this last year:

Next, the framework:

Comments
kf -
Enough has been given to show why there are serious concerns. You are inadvertently showing the dismissiveness of the elites that fails to understand that we are at threshold of fatal disaffection.
Oh, I'm sure the elites are fully aware of the "threshold of fatal disaffection". In case you weren'1t aware, it was literally fatal on Jan 6th. For anyone except partisan Trump supporters, the concerns aren't serious, because they have been investigated and shown to not have any merit.Bob O'H
August 8, 2021
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BO'H: Enough has been given to show why there are serious concerns. You are inadvertently showing the dismissiveness of the elites that fails to understand that we are at threshold of fatal disaffection. Across the past six years, the media discredited themselves. Just now, there is an incident of further Antifa, red guard riots, I bet there will be no obsessive 24/7 news cycle on a severe breach of the civil compact, attacking core freedoms through the slander you are fascists and so down to your CHILDREN you are prey that we can treat with violence with impunity. When it comes to the legal and court systems, they failed over the same period so it is unsurprising that the Supreme Court ducked a decisive case, in a climate where we all know what was trumpeted for years after an obviously manipulative recount was stopped in 2000. I suggest to you that you refresh what was discussed here over the period since Summer 2020, and read the history of Mao's Red Guard coup . . . Wikipedia, wonder of wonders, has a good 101. Look up the McFaul Colour Revolution, noting how easily it becomes a Reichstag incident power push. Notice in passing how a pandemic was exploited, including suppression of effective treatments which would have allowed a far less authoritarian solution, now ranging into no man could buy or sell save he take the mark territory. Then, have some patience and open mindedness to see what the audit in progress and facing stonewalling to protect blackbox voting machines uncovers. We already have reason to believe it isn't pretty. Did you ever wonder how Hitler could pull off converting a democracy into a dictatorship? What did you conclude, why? Did you ever wonder why China is making a blue ocean push and has literally threatened to nuke Japan, with nary a peep of protest globally? And much more. KF PS: Deep state is a synonym for tainted establishment, something that should be familiar since the 60s and should be uncontroversial, the matter is just which factions currently dominate and their agenda. It actually took out an ad in a major paper, and the Steele dossier fiasco shows who threw the first flurry of punches and kicks. Did you protest the abuse of was it $45 mn of state funds and institutional power to carry forward an investigation on such a flimsy basis of accusation? Show us where ____, and tell us your specific arguments of protest ______, if you cannot, you don't have a leg to stand on in face of the eyewitness testimony, videos, vote dumps after coordinated stop count, resort to known fraud prone voting systems, exposure of training of poll workers in frustrating . . . not facilitating . . . observation (much less proper at arm's length scrutineering), exposure of what the voting machines can do and their history etc etc etc. He hit back first is a form of turnabout agit prop tactics.kairosfocus
August 8, 2021
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kf @ 69 -
BO’H: nope, it is obvious the courts feared the accusation that they decided the election in 2000 and punted in the face of red guards.
Really? I take it you can point to a legal analysis by a credible lawyer that explains the legal errors made by the many judges when they made their decisions. Because if you don't have any evidence that the judges made legal errors, then it seems more likely that they made the right decisions.
Now, it is going to the auditors and state legislatures.
it's already been to them. Perhaps you don't remember but every state legislature sent their representatives to vote. There were also several audits done (I don't know how many, sorry). I ignored your comments about voting systems of the Afro-Caribbean because they didn't seem relevant. I don't think they trained many US election workers. mohammadnursyamsu -
Bill Barr is generally considered to be corrupt as well by conservatives, no mystery why he didn’t call out the fraud.
That's a nice way to undermine your argument. So he could have said there was fraud because there was, or because there wasn't but he was corrupt, and kept in the good graces of his rather powerful boss.
“give you 50 bucks for your signed mail in vote”. That is all it takes to corrupt the system.
And is there evidence that this was done? On a large enough scale to swing several states?
In Antrim county they did a manual recount of the vote, just based on a hunch that the numbers from the machines were inaccurate. It turned out their hunch was right, the machines shifted thousands of votes from Trump to Biden.
Which Antrim County is this? It's obviously not the one in Michigan, where the hand recount changed by 12 votes. Perhaps you're confusing it with another Antrim in the US. Or with the (brief) flip of votes that occurred when Antrim County's results were reported. This was quickly spotted and corrected. Vividbleu @ 72 - no, I wasn't referring to the department, but to Bill Barr specifically. Vividbleu @ 75 -
I don’t think it should be that surprising that Trumpsters distrust the Government and virtually every major cultural institution in the US.
No, the way Trump & co. have been attacking the "Deep State". WJM @ 77 - go back to your definition of a forensic audit, and then check each aspect. If you want it to be short, start with "independent" and look into the boss of the Cyber Ninjas. It might also help if you present evicdence that these companies have been accepted as expert witnesses in criminal courts, where they have presented audits as evidence.Bob O'H
August 8, 2021
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Vivid:
A large group of Antifa carrying shields and melee weapons attacked a group of Evangelical Christians congregating for a prayer and worship event at the waterfront in downtown Portland, Ore. Video recorded at the scene showed children and families running away as black-clad Antifa militants tore apart the sound equipment and assaulted attendees with pepper spray and projectiles . . . . Shocking video recorded at the violent event show dozens of armed Antifa members in black bloc and riot gear moving in to physically confront attendees of the event. One of the Antifa members sprayed a congregant with an unidentified, gas-like substance that is suspected to be pepper spray. The congregation took several steps back to avoid injury. "Where is your god now?" an Antifa member can be heard saying in the video. After pulling apart the sound system, the Antifa toss the equipment into the Willamette River.
Why isn't this 24/7 news, as a riot and hate crime? That alone tells us a lot and it 'ent pretty. KF PS: This is precisely the kind of breakdown of lawfulness that shows erosion of cultural buttresses and a slide into lawless tyranny. If you read on you will see families assembling for prayer compared to alleged fascist churches in Spain during their horrific, war crime filled civil war and used to justify stealing food and water on claim is was to be distributed to the masses. That trips so many red flags it isn't funny.kairosfocus
August 8, 2021
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Bob, KF said:
The Constitutionally legitimate body in AZ is belatedly acting through a forensic audit, which already corroborates concerns on public facts.
You responded:
BTW, that’s not a forensic audit by WJM’s definition.
From the Washington Examiner, March 31, 202:
"After months of interviewing various forensic auditors, the Arizona Senate has found a qualified team consisting of Wake Technology Services, Inc., CyFIR, LLC, Digital Discovery, and Cyber Ninjas, Inc. to conduct the audit," Senate President Karen Fann wrote.
From the Digital Discovery website: https://digitaldiscoveryesi.com/
All collected data is preserved in a forensically sound manner through established physical and electronic processes and procedures to manage the handling and delivery of forensic evidence, ensuring indisputable court-admissible evidence.
From the CyFir website:
Remotely investigate a system or systems, even across the world, for internal issues such as: Intellectual Property Theft, Sexual Harassment, Insider Threat, Misuse
Their website goes on to say they offer "Forensic Grade" investigations into a variety of things having to do with computerized systems. https://www.cyfir.com/investigator/ Are you saying the group assembled are not qualified forensic auditors? If so, why?William J Murray
August 8, 2021
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Bob “So now think back: Stories about Trump being pissed on by Russian prostitutes and blackmailed by Putin were promoted as fact, and the only evidence was a document paid for by his opposition and disavowed by its source. And then the New York Post was banned for reporting on true information” “The reaction of Trump people to all this was not, “no fair!” That’s how they felt about Romney’s “binders of women” in 2012. This is different. Now they see, correctly, that every institution is captured by ppl who will use any means to exclude them from the political process. And yet they showed up in record numbers to vote. He got 13 million more votes than in 2016—10 million more than Hillary Clinton. As election night dragged on, Trump supporters allowed themselves some hope.” “But when the four critical swing states (and only those states) went dark at midnight, they knew. “ https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/vegas-oddsmaker-says-the-fix-was-in-trump-was-robbed-this-election-was-stolen/ Vividvividbleau
August 8, 2021
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Bob I don’t think it should be that surprising that Trumpsters distrust the Government and virtually every major cultural institution in the US. This is a really good read. https://americanmind.org/salvo/the-disillusionment-of-the-deplorables/ “Many of them don’t know for certain whether ballots were faked in November 2020, but they know for absolute certain that the press, the FBI, etc., would lie to them if there was. They have every reason to believe that, and it’s probably true. They watched the press behave like animals for four years. Tens of millions of people will always see Brett Kavanaugh as a gang rapist, based on nothing, because of CNN. And CNN seems proud of that. They led a lynch mob against a high school kid. They cheered on a summer of riots. “ “At first, many Trump supporters were worried there must be some collusion, because every media and intelligence agency wouldn’t make it up out of nothing. When it was clear that they had made it up, people expected a reckoning. When that didn’t happen, they shed many illusions about their government. “ “We also know, as fact:” That the fraudulent Steele Dossier was the sole evidence used to justify spying on the Trump campaign, That the FBI knew the Steele dossier was a DNC op, That Steele’s source told the FBI the info was unserious, and That they did not inform the court of any of this and kept spying. Trump supporters know this collusion case front and back. They went from worrying the collusion must be real, to suspecting it might be fake, to realizing it was a scam. Then they watched as every institution—agencies, the press, Congress, academia—gaslit them for another year. “ Vividvividbleau
August 8, 2021
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MNY “So then basically the USA is not really a representative Republic anymore.” I have taken the red pill sadly you are correct. I forget if it was Marx, Trotsky,Lenin ,Stalin or some other authoritarian who said something like “ it’s not the voters that matter but rather matters are those who counts the votes” Vividvividbleau
August 8, 2021
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KF “BO’H: nope, it is obvious the courts feared the accusation that they decided the election in 2000 and punted in the face of red guards.” KF like these jack booted fascists? https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-antifa-assault-families-and-children-at-christian-prayer-event-in-portland-park Vividvividbleau
August 8, 2021
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Bob “I notice nobody has tried to explain why Bill Barr wasn’t saying there was fraud, if there’s all of this supposed evidence. Shouldn’t that at least make you pause to think?” Hard to take your question seriously since your referring to the same Justice Department that the FBI is part of that attempted a silent coup against Trump. Of course you will say Barr was Trumps appointee as if that means the permanent Justice Departments bureaucratic class all of a sudden reformed their corrupt ways. Vividvividbleau
August 7, 2021
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MNY, you raised the issue of a high trust culture. One with high social capital. This points to the cultural buttresses I noted on earlier. Once such breaks down, the barriers to lawlessness disintegrate and there is a slide into lawlessness thus tyranny. A major component of such buttresses has been the manifestly eroding Gospel and Gospel ethics heritage; note Heine's literary prophecy for Germany. We don't know the fire we play with and won't realise what value what we are on trend to lose has, until we find out consequences and how hard it is to come back up from the bottom of the cliff. KFkairosfocus
August 7, 2021
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Bill Barr is generally considered to be corrupt as well by conservatives, no mystery why he didn't call out the fraud. And this kind of referring to authority figures to say that no fraud occurred, is meaningless. I remember the chief of election security saying these were the safest elections in us history. "give you 50 bucks for your signed mail in vote". That is all it takes to corrupt the system. When some government official says, this was the safest elections ever, it only proves that they are lying, and therefore corrupt. In Antrim county they did a manual recount of the vote, just based on a hunch that the numbers from the machines were inaccurate. It turned out their hunch was right, the machines shifted thousands of votes from Trump to Biden. So all the evidence it took to do a manual recount, was just a hunch that the results were inaccurate. There is more than a hunch, there is legitemate sucpicion, and affadvit evidence, statistical analysis, that the elections in the USA were fraudulent. Then you obviously need to check it. Trump derangement syndrome is very real, and widespread. Lots of people would be willing to cheat at elections to get rid of Trump, both Democrats and Republicans. But these voting systems were built for a high trust culture. It requires a lot of work, a lot of cost to check it, because it was not designed to really be checked. It cannot really be verified to the exclusion of largescale fraud. So then basically the USA is not really a representative Republic anymore.mohammadnursyamsu
August 7, 2021
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BO'H: nope, it is obvious the courts feared the accusation that they decided the election in 2000 and punted in the face of red guards. Things moved to a Reichstag Fire agit prop incident. Now, it is going to the auditors and state legislatures. AZ is the beginning. When this is over, no-ID, blackbox machine, no close -- arm's length -- scrutineering and the invitation to fraud mail and harvested votes will be utterly discredited. And I don't need to be a Trump fan, only one well aware that the US Navy is the bruised reed substitute for the Royal Navy of old as guardian of the global peace, and to be familiar with the designed to be sound beyond reasonable doubt voting systems of the Afro-Caribbean. Which I have outlined already and which you studiously ignored. It is easy to see that the current chaos of the US is highly conducive to fraud, which given concerns on longstanding record, has to be willful. Complacency, I suspect is the root. KFkairosfocus
August 7, 2021
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The Democrats now and then.
Unearthed Paper Shows Biden-Linked Group Demanding ‘Robust’ Audits & Admitting Machines Are Hackable Even Without Internet Access.
https://thenationalpulse.com/news/biden-linked-group-backed-audits/ By the way I understand there is no one officially certified to do an audit of elections in the US. The ways to cheat on an election increased substantially because of C19 and new voting procedures that there is no recognized standard method to detect fraud.jerry
August 7, 2021
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The Constitutionally legitimate body in AZ is belatedly acting through a forensic audit, which already corroborates concerns on public facts.
BTW, that's not a forensic audit by WJM's definition.Bob O'H
August 7, 2021
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kf @ 64 -
BO’H, concerns have been stigmatised, marginalised, largely locked out.
Yes, because they've been repeatedly shown to not have any merit. This isn't the view of partisans on the left, it's the view of the courts (including Trump appointees) and other Republican politicians. It's only Trump partisans who think there's a problem. I notice nobody has tried to explain why Bill Barr wasn't saying there was fraud, if there's all of this supposed evidence. Shouldn't that at least make you pause to think?Bob O'H
August 7, 2021
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Dead people voted, Bob. And the fact that 82 million people allegedly voted for a puppet with dementia needs to looked into.ET
August 7, 2021
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BO'H, concerns have been stigmatised, marginalised, largely locked out. The case of some 20 states with the US Supreme Court is particularly manifest. The Constitutionally legitimate body in AZ is belatedly acting through a forensic audit, which already corroborates concerns on public facts. I am not impressed that officials who changed election procedures while circumventing the clear Constitutional mandate that such is the purview of state legislatures, can be said to have even tried to do their best. I highlight resistance to proper voter ID, poor chain of custody, undermining of scrutineering and the multiplication of a notoriously fraud prone system, correspondence voting. The onward contrast between a summer of red guard haunted destructive rioting and the Reichstag fire agit prop surrounding a single, far less destructive incident, leading to what has to be called political prisoners is troubling. When I contemplate potential geostrategic consequences, I shudder. KFkairosfocus
August 7, 2021
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kf @54 -
Start with the evidence of serious misconduct during the election, proneness to fraud [start with ID’s issues] and the like. Part of what frustrates sound action in such a polarised, clouded toxic situation is refusal to hear concerns that are legitimate.
The concerns were heard. There were about 60 court cases. They were also heard by the Attourney General, who didn't think they were legitimate. WJM @56 -
Not all independent audits are forensic audits.
Ah, so you mis-wrote @ 46 by saying forensic audits weren't independent audits. You mea ththey were, but the definition went beyond that.
I hope that clears it up. Now, to your knowledge, have there been any forensic audits, anywhere, of the 2020 vote?
Not by your definition. But the training to handle criminal evidence seems weird, and it may be that some audits have been run by people who are forensic auditors. But this is a standard that doesn't seem to have come up before.
The usual audits of the elections allow observers in from the parties.
Do they? How many did and how many didn’t?
The only one that I'm aware of that hasn't is the "forensic" audit being carried out by CyberNinjas on Maricopa County. Most states explicitly allow observers, either the public or appointed poll watchers. Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Rhode Island and South Carolina don't specify if observers can be present. Alabama, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, New Hampshire and South Dakota don't have requirements for audits.
We’re all avenues of fraud eliminated as an explanation for the results?
I'm sure they weren't, but I'm also sure the officials tried their best. And did a pretty good job, as there hasn't been any credible evidence of large-scale fraud.Bob O'H
August 7, 2021
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Jerry/60
A first-of-its-kind website launched today that will finally give American citizens a way to examine crucial voting records.
For once you, kf and I are in full agreement. There are good reasons for secret ballots. I hope that there will be legal action taken immediately to block this outrageous assault on voter privacy and electoral integrity.Seversky
August 6, 2021
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Jerry, in the current agit prop climate, such is indeed dangerous and sets a further dangerous precedent. Doxxing on file, only a few clicks and keystrokes away, an invitation to cyber stalking and Red Guards visits from Hell. KFkairosfocus
August 6, 2021
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A new voter website
A first-of-its-kind website launched today that will finally give American citizens a way to examine crucial voting records.
https://voteref.com/press_releases/1-unprecedented-election-transparency-website-launches I’m not sure this is a good thing. Gives everyone access to everyone in country and their voting records. Could easily be abused.jerry
August 6, 2021
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ET, properly done samples of claimed voter segments would show up patterns long before we got to a full census. KFkairosfocus
August 6, 2021
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Jerry, I already pointed out the right kind of scrutineering, from at voter registration to voting to counting, I didn't mention COURT recounts and recounts by the INDEPENDENT electoral commission. When I saw vids and pics of observers dozens of feet from the action, I shook my head. That would not even defeat a basic crooked cashier in a corner shop. Then, there were the cardboard screens to block observation. Then there was the send 'em home and midnight counting caught on vid. Then, there was a certain lady from India worrying her rosary as worry beads as she spoke the painful and to her frightening truth. And much more. That is just the election. There is so much more about dirty form McFaul colour revolutions, Red Guard tactics, media gaslighting and much more. I get the distinct impression, it cannot happen here is setting up a catastrophe. Indeed, I recall the pre fatal eruption situation here, where officialdom had neurotics with visions of disaster as the marginalised fringe, they had the probabilities all comfortably figured out, utterly unaware that the mountain six miles south of here was in the process of tearing up and rewriting the book on Volcanology. I keep saying a 4th gen war, in certain low kinetic forms does not seem to be a war to many people, it can go as unrest, protest, even political violence, even court cases and legislature committees or debates etc . . . and do I dare add, pandemics* and other cases of never let a crisis go to waste? KF * PS: I don't like to raise such, but, what was the timeline on vaccine rollout in China relative to the acknowledged outbreaks there and overseas from there? How long does vax development reasonably take relative to the point where an agent is already identified? And how long would that identification and confirmation take from a standing start? Does the window of time make sense? (And no, I am not asking about testing for long term effects and issues.)kairosfocus
August 6, 2021
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*sigh* Do you really know so little about US elections?
Should this be called the “sigh” rebuttal? You have no idea of what I know or have read.
The usual audits of the elections allow observers in from the parties.
Do they? How many did and how many didn’t? From what I understand there was little transparency in many of the audits. And the discussion indicates there are different ways fraud could have taken place. We’re all avenues of fraud eliminated as an explanation for the results?jerry
August 6, 2021
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Bob @53:
So not one run by an independent investigator? ... I don’t know, because your explanations seem contradictory.
From my explanation of what a "forensic audit" is in comment #37, bolded parts for emphasis:
A forensic audit – whether of financial records or of a vote – is an audit that is conducted by an independent investigator for the purpose of establishing and collecting evidence that is admissible in a court of law, in case evidence of wrongdoing is found. So, when an internal audit is conducted by people that may be covering their own crimes or have a conflict of interest if they find problems, how are we supposed to trust that process? Furthermore, internal audits are not designed to find, follow up on, or collect evidence of criminal activity because they are not being done by an outside, third party agency trained and qualified to do exactly that.
Not all independent audits are forensic audits. Forensic audits are both independent and conducted by investigators trained and qualified to find and handle evidence for criminal proceedings in court. You need both of those aspects in order to make a qualified, credible, independent assessment of whether or not there is evidence of criminal fraud or any other criminal activity. I hope that clears it up. Now, to your knowledge, have there been any forensic audits, anywhere, of the 2020 vote? BTW Bob, the fact that you don't already know these distinctions and properties of what these "audit" terms mean, indicates you have not been qualified to assess the value of statements from public officials when they talk about audits, what the audits do or do not show, or whether or not there is or is not any evidence of "widespread" vote fraud. Until forensic audits are conducted, no statements by public officials or anyone else about what various "audits" show have any significant credibility, either pro or con.William J Murray
August 6, 2021
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Audit? As if they can go door-to-door verifying everyone's vote. That is what it would take. Are there really 82 million dolts in the USA who voted for a puppet with dementia for the PoTUS? That I would like to see verified. The USA is not a better place to live with Biden as President.ET
August 6, 2021
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BO'H: turnabout projection. Start with the evidence of serious misconduct during the election, proneness to fraud [start with ID's issues] and the like. Part of what frustrates sound action in such a polarised, clouded toxic situation is refusal to hear concerns that are legitimate. KF PS: It seems the first forensic audit is in process in AZ, and is facing stonewalling as well as demonisation attempts.kairosfocus
August 6, 2021
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Jerry @ 42 -
Trump’s supporters had the opportunity to monitor the audits.
No they didn’t. That is the issue.
*sigh* Do you really know so little about US elections? Yes, they did have the chance. The usual audits of the elections allow observers in from the parties. OldArmy94 -
If there is nothing to fear, then no one will lose anything by allowing this thing to exhaust itself.
You should ask kf about "the big lie", and whether it would have been better to have stopped that. WJM @ 46 -
Ah, WJM, you mean an independent audit.
No, Bob, I mean a forensic audit.
So not one run by an independent investigator?
So my question remains: were the audits you referred to forensic audits?
I don't know, because your explanations seem contradictory.Bob O'H
August 6, 2021
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Vivid, the parallels, sadly, beg to be drawn. Also, there are obvious parallels to the Mao coup by Red Guard uprising in 1966. The lost decade that followed is horrific record. The McFaul colour revolution framework and the 4th generation war analysis also make disturbing reading. We went through a fair amount of that last year but there was attack-accuse-dismiss every inch of the way. KF PS: The unfolding pandemic fiasco is also relevant.kairosfocus
August 6, 2021
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