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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Again, for record.

Comments
Seversky
And Professor Dave has published videos on YouTube dismantling Dr Tour’s claims.
Professor Dave is not competent enough to engage in the discussion. The video linked above makes that clear.
What has ID actually contributed to the scientific discussion
ID contributes a critical point of view that would be lacking otherwise.Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2022
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Silver Asiatic/507
Dr. Tour produced a 13 part series (9 hours of lectures) regarding Ool claims and hypotheses.
And Professor Dave has published videos on YouTube dismantling Dr Tour's claims.
ID contributes a lot to the scientific discussion since IDists are among the very few who challenge the claims made by Ool researchers.
What has ID actually contributed to the scientific discussion surrounding OOL research other than the claim that a designer did it so they are wasting their time?Seversky
November 20, 2022
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Relatd/506
Give me a break. Cells are made of chemicals. So, anybody can create life in the lab. It hasn’t happened. It won’t happen. Only blind faith keeps evolutionists believing it will happen.
It has already happened once so it's possible. Since it's possible, it's possible it could happen again. You can't know it won't happen any more than I could know that it will. We have no choice but to live with the limits of our present knowledge while hoping that those limits can be expanded given time.Seversky
November 20, 2022
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Relatd: Give me a break. Cells are made of chemicals. So, anybody can create life in the lab. It hasn’t happened. It won’t happen. Only blind faith keeps evolutionists believing it will happen.
Get back to me when you can present a serious argument.Sir Giles
November 20, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @507,
I’m guessing that your objectors haven’t watched it. Dr. Tour produced a 13 part series (9 hours of lectures) regarding Ool claims and hypotheses.
You can count on it! They're using their ignorance as an impenetrable shield and their understanding is prevented by a titanium cranium. After they're shredded by logic, they proudly announce their triumph. And now a little humor . . . The Bull Fight As he proudly steps into the arena, the crowd roars thunderously. He is dressed in a tight-fitting black outfit intricately embroidered with bright gold thread that twinkles under the burning sun, the traje de luces, the suit of lights! Here stands Darwin's Matador. The powerful bull charges into one end of the arena, but Darwin's Matador is unconcerned. He is prepared. He is ready. He is focused. As the bull trots near, Darwin's Matador catches the bull's attention with a bright red cape and shakes it, taunting the bull: Darwin's Matador: “Survival of the fittest" is not central to Darwinian theory. The bull charges. Darwin's Matador is confident, knowing that he has several graceful moves depending on what the bull does next. Charging Bull: Darwin wrote about the survival of the fittest. It was central to his theory! See here, I have a quote . . . Darwin's Matador: We're talking modern evolutionary science here, past even neo-Darwinism. Crowd: Ole'! Charging Bull: If an organism doesn't survive it doesn't reproduce. Darwin's Matador: Exactly. We are talking about reproduction, not survival. Crowd: Ole' Charging Bull: “Fittest” is a tautology. Darwin's Matador: Exactly. The "fittest" changes as the environment changes. Crowd: Ole' Darwin's Matador: Makes deprecatory comments—skillfully placing two barbed banderillas in the bull's shoulders. Crowd: Ole' Charging Bull: But how do any new genes fare? Darwin's Matador: They become part of the extensive gene pool of the organism, where they might be included in the genetic drift. Crowd: Ole' Charging Bull: But how do brand new genes, not to mention body plans, originate? Darwin's Matador: Well we don't know all the details yet, but it musta happened because we're here! Charging Bull: Because "we're here” is not exclusive. The crowd gasps and Darwin's Matador experiences an explosion of pain as one of the bull's horns sinks deep into his groin and the bull lofts him into the air. Again. And again. The other toreros immediately rush in to try to distract the bull, but they're too late. As Darwin's Matador is carried from the arena, he shouts repeatedly "I won, I won." -QQuerius
November 20, 2022
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KF
as Dr Tour has pointed out and as is embedded in summary in the OP
That's an informative video. I'm guessing that your objectors haven't watched it. Dr. Tour produced a 13 part series (9 hours of lectures) regarding Ool claims and hypotheses. ID contributes a lot to the scientific discussion since IDists are among the very few who challenge the claims made by Ool researchers.Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2022
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SG at 502, Give me a break. Cells are made of chemicals. So, anybody can create life in the lab. It hasn't happened. It won't happen. Only blind faith keeps evolutionists believing it will happen.relatd
November 20, 2022
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KF: SG, the many hyps are generally without adequate causal foundation,
1) This is not correct. They are without demonstrated causal foundation. Just because a hypothesis has not yet been demonstrated to be true doesn’t mean that it isn’t. 2) When the movement of continents (plate tectonics) was first proposed, it did not have fully understood causal foundations. It does now.
Nor, BTW, is he by any means the first,
3) Really? How many scientists who conduct OoL research are looking for the designer and the mechanisms used by the designer?
there is a reason why OoL is a notoriously unsolved problem as the only known means to get FSCO/I is ideologically locked out, from a Monod or a Crick on down.
4) I’m pretty sure that humans aren’t responsible for OoL. 5) And besides, what is stopping you or any other scientist from conducting research into the designed origin of life?
You already have enough to understand the problem of complex fine tuning for zones of functional configuration amidst seas of non function. KF
6) Fine tuning with regard to physics and the universe is a non-starter. 7) For fine tuning to be a valid argument you have to demonstrate that the physical constants can have any value (ie, be tuned). 8) Your islands of function analogy has already been debunked. 9) Why to you keep bringing it up when you have been issued a soundly warranted corrective?Sir Giles
November 20, 2022
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SG, the many hyps are generally without adequate causal foundation, as Dr Tour has pointed out and as is embedded in summary in the OP. Nor, BTW, is he by any means the first, there is a reason why OoL is a notoriously unsolved problem as the only known means to get FSCO/I is ideologically locked out, from a Monod or a Crick on down. As for the further unobserved long chain of chemistry and sets of chemicals on the way to life, both hypothetical and failing to reckon with the problem solved in cells in part by encapsulation and smart gating. Thermodynamically uphill and prone to disintegration etc. And much more. You already have enough to understand the problem of complex fine tuning for zones of functional configuration amidst seas of non function. KFkairosfocus
November 20, 2022
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KF: Yes, and show me is the Newton’s Rules issue that proponents of spontaneous origin of life by blind chem and phys in a Darwin’s pond or the like keep ducking.
1) Yes, they are ducking it by developing numerous hypotheses, testing them and modifying their hypotheses. And repeating the process. 2) In short, they are sciencing the f out of it. 3) What research has ID done on OoL, or how life diversified, or how the universe developed? 4) Show me.
Without the control that proposed causal factors be shown by our direct observation to have requisite capability, the door is open to ideological speculations backed by power agendas to create fairy tales dressed up in a lab coat [clergy frocks] that then taint the base of “accepted” “knowledge” . . .
5) It is amazing how your comment makes much more sense by the change of a single term.
That is why we need to declare knowledge independence, look at the coded algorithms in D/RNA and at protein synthesis and demand a sober answer on where algorithms and codes — language — come from, refusing to be distracted by squid ink rhetoric about “analogies
6) What rhetoric? 7) DNA resembles a code (noun) but you make an unwarranted leap of FAITH that this means code (verb). 8) Tree rings can also be seen as a code (noun). 9) The number of rings is a code fir the number of years. 10) The space between the rings is a code for the climate conditions in that year. 11) But nobody is suggesting that tree rings are a code (verb). Well, that’s it for now. My tea is getting cold.Sir Giles
November 20, 2022
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Querius: Not at all. With bacteria that have been disassembled into their component parts, they should be able to be reassembled into at least one living bacterium by origin of life researchers.
Except there is not a single OoL researcher who suggests that life started by the self assembly of an environment containing the ingredient list of modern life.
This bacteria challenge was actually proposed by synthetic organic chemist, Dr. James Tour of Rice University. Dr. Tour has published more than 750 peer-reviewed papers and over 30 patents in his discipline.
But obviously knows nothing about OoL hypotheses or modern analytical microbiology.
He’s also made an open challenge to any evolutionist to explain to him how the biochemistry of the origin of life could have occurred. Think you’re up to it?
Absolutely nobody on earth can currently explain this. But there is one thing I am certain of. There is plenty of research being conducted to determine how this may have happened through natural processes, and zero research conducted into how it arose through design mechanisms.
I bet Dr. Tour could use your $1,000 bet for useful research into nanotechnology.
He could also use it to spend time learning about OoL research and analytical microbiology.Sir Giles
November 20, 2022
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Q & SG: Q, 498: >>the most complex synthetic molecule made so far>> 1: From scratch. 2: There are now nanocar races between various teams. >>There are many other problems as well, including both chemical purity and having to deal with racemic mixtures, both of which are deal breakers. In response to the musta-coulda-mighta language of origin of life fantasies, his response is “Okay, show me.”>> 3: Yes, and show me is the Newton's Rules issue that proponents of spontaneous origin of life by blind chem and phys in a Darwin's pond or the like keep ducking. 4: Without the control that proposed causal factors be shown by our direct observation to have requisite capability, the door is open to ideological speculations backed by power agendas to create fairy tales dressed up in a lab coat that then taint the base of "accepted" "knowledge" . . . which is precisely what Lewontin let the cat out of the bag on. 5: That is why we need to declare knowledge independence, look at the coded algorithms in D/RNA and at protein synthesis and demand a sober answer on where algorithms and codes -- language -- come from, refusing to be distracted by squid ink rhetoric about "analogies, no if it does not use loops or branches or recursive patterns it's not a real algorithm etc. Then there is the playpen level objection, let's laugh at enumeration of points for reference. That one has discredited SG as anyone to be taken seriously. 6: Those rhetorical expedients show that the point is plain and cogent but inconvenient. 7: We can go on, noting that life forms use sophisticated numerically controlled molecular machines -- analogy silliness again of course, but no it is clear what a Ribosome, a mRNA and a tRNA and enzymes are -- to assemble AA chains for proteins. 8: That is obviously expensive in materials and in being thermodynamically up the cliff, indeed so much that we see encapsulation, smart gating and a hugely complex wider metabolic network that supports this little corner of the framework that makes the proteins (including enzymes). 9: This is a hugely interconnected fine tuned network of chicken-egg causal loops (thus, exhibiting tight zones . . . islands . . . of function or operation in vast clumped or scattered configuration spaces), raising questions of origin and of course highlighting that there is precisely one empirically observed cause of such FSCO/I, intelligently directed configuration. 10: The sneers come up, don't you dare say such things; obviously over the vulnerable target there will be busy flak batteries. 11: But more, we are seeing clues on a plausible original causal process. The need for NC machinery, information, organisation and controlled environment was there ab initio. So, logically, start with lab scale nanotech machines and an established body of knowledge on relevant polymer chemistry . . . thus, heavy duty computational chemistry. 12: Synthesise and assemble key components, starting with ribosomes, mRNA, tRNA that take you to molecular nanotech, filling in the supporting cast of other molecular machines as you go, building up the integrated network, finally encapsulating with smart gating. 13: Test the first cells then release to terraform, maybe run systems to feed in more and more. 14: Then as appropriate inject onward new body plans, until one has viable ecosystems that are robust, in a stable terrestrial biosphere. 15: It would not make sense to put all eggs in one basket, why not run the exercise at galactic scale. >> “bacteria smoothie” challenge (that I’ve borrowed). 1. Take a colony of living bacteria. 2. Stir well and put it into a blender. 3. Using any lab techniques and equipment, restore a living bacterium. All the components are there, but he’s had no takers. And on UD, the detractors, hecklers, and troll bots simply move on to another post.>> 16: It is not original to Tour, the underlying one is the pricked cell exercise. 17: This illustrates the magnitude of the FSCO/I, fine tuning of operating points in zones of function in much larger seas of non function problem. 18: In fact, Sir Fred Hoyle's tornado in a junk yard assembles a 747 -- BTW, now going out of production -- exercise was just a scaled up metaphor of the needle in haystack, blind search challenge to spontaneously assemble components in sophisticated functional organisation. (In my always linked, I put up a thought exercise pivoting on Brownian motion.) 19: One, informed by his firm understanding that thermal, thermodynamic forces at molecular level are effectively random. Temperature, is an index of the average random kinetic energy per degree of freedom for a body. Brownian motion, which is directly observable, is in effect fairly large entities participating in that molecular motion, an apples falling from trees as the moon swings by insight Einstein used to help establish the atomic-molecular picture, and a contribution to his Nobel Prize. 20: There are no takers as there is no viable spontaneous assembler, whilst we already see from Venter et al how a good part of this can be done in today's molecular nanotech lab. Hence, my points 11 - 15 just above. SG, 499: >>A rewording of the ridiculous tornado in a junkyard nonsense>> 21: Nope, just a further exposure of your ignorance and rhetorical sneering, squid ink cloud emission to evade accountability before real, free science. 22: Do you want me to go pull my Harry S Robertson and type out his discussion of how we can start with aircraft moving around under traffic control, then reduce to loss of information of gas molecules moving about at ultra-sub- microscope level, which then brings up the information gap view of entropy and the tie in of how work can in part be extracted from information? 23: Work, being forced, ordered or organised motion. Thus, the significance of the point that carefully organised complex entities are traces of work. Thence, 24: the point that it is not credible to imagine that complex, functionally specific organisation and associated information come about by lucky noise filtered for successful function [esp. when entropy points downhill] KFkairosfocus
November 20, 2022
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Yay, I got comment #500! Oh, and by the way . . .
A rewording of the ridiculous tornado in a junkyard nonsense.
Not at all. With bacteria that have been disassembled into their component parts, they should be able to be reassembled into at least one living bacterium by origin of life researchers. This bacteria challenge was actually proposed by synthetic organic chemist, Dr. James Tour of Rice University. Dr. Tour has published more than 750 peer-reviewed papers and over 30 patents in his discipline. He's also made an open challenge to any evolutionist to explain to him how the biochemistry of the origin of life could have occurred. Think you're up to it? I bet Dr. Tour could use your $1,000 bet for useful research into nanotechnology. -QQuerius
November 19, 2022
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Querius: 1. Take a colony of living bacteria. 2. Stir well and put it into a blender. 3. Using any lab techniques and equipment, restore a living bacterium. All the components are there, but he’s had no takers.
Oh joy. A rewording of the ridiculous tornado in a junkyard nonsense. But I will go one better. I will bet you $1,000 that if you put a bacterial colony in a blender and then spread the smoothie on any media specific to that bacteria and incubate at the appropriate temperature, you will end up with millions of live bacteria. I have another challenge: 1. Take a colony of Salmonella 2. Stir well and put it in a blender. 3. Drink the resulting smoothie. I promise you, you will not enjoy the outcome. Here is a clue as to why you won’t enjoy the outcome. Blenders are used in the microbiological analysis of food.Sir Giles
November 19, 2022
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Kairosfocus @497, Dr. Tour's nano cars are super impressive, but I didn't know that they're the most complex synthetic molecule made so far. I watched his talk describing the process of synthetic chemistry and then he showed that "incremental change" is simply not possible in organic molecules. Dr. Tour said something like, "Nature doesn't keep a lab notebook," and to make a change in a molecule necessitates starting from scratch each time! There are many other problems as well, including both chemical purity and having to deal with racemic mixtures, both of which are deal breakers. In response to the musta-coulda-mighta language of origin of life fantasies, his response is "Okay, show me." He also came up with the idea of a "bacteria smoothie" challenge (that I've borrowed). 1. Take a colony of living bacteria. 2. Stir well and put it into a blender. 3. Using any lab techniques and equipment, restore a living bacterium. All the components are there, but he's had no takers. And on UD, the detractors, hecklers, and troll bots simply move on to another post. -QQuerius
November 19, 2022
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F/N: In another current thread, MR reports at no 26:
from what I could understand, I really doubt that a synthetic cell / life in lab will be made from scratch within next 500 years … most likely never …. I talked to Dr. Tour a few week ago regarding this. I am sure you heard of him. I put him a question: What was the most complex molecular system made by humans except his nano ‘cars’. I was told, that these nano-‘cars’ is the most complex molecular system so far. I was shocked, because these nano-cars are very very primitive molecular system, made of few molecules … very very very hard to compare even with the most simplest parts of a cell. Not sure you heard of these nano-cars. Here is an animation of the nanocar so you have an idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11P2MBLA5qc
Of course, BA77 picks up in 32: "I first heard about these ‘primitive’ nano cars 10 or 12 years ago. It is very interesting that they are still the most sophisticated man-made molecular machines built from scratch. " That is the magnitude of the problem.kairosfocus
November 18, 2022
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PS, let me add as a further illustration: >>Compare this to an ID explanation of how a complex biological structure would arise. The cause, the designer, is unknown,>> 42: It is obvious that the inference on reliable sign establishes that a PROCESS (not an agent) is the case, as has long been explained. This is a further strawman caricature. >>and so are the mechanisms by which the design would be implemented.>> 43: Venter et al and their labs are very observable, and demonstrate first level methods, as by further extension would be Tour's lab in which he created a molecular car. 44: Again, a willful strawman caricature has been set up. >> Thus, we cannot assess how plausible the ID explanation is, or how it compares to other explanations.>> 45: Strawman knocked over, establishing dismissive but utterly fallacious talking points. 46: This one is however, further revealing, as it shows that this PT author understands well enough that he is dealing with abductive inference to the best explanation, he has undercut possible excuses for his misbehaviour. >>An explanation based on unknown causes and unknown mechanisms is, strictly speaking, no explanation at all - it doesn't make us any wiser.>> 47: Battering the strawman that is now on the ground. >> It provides no concrete knowledge. It has no explanatory value. Nor does it provide a reliable basis for further hypotheses.>> 48: Further battering. 49: The irresponsibility involved can be seen from the simple fact that Venter, Tour, Minnich, Axe, Durston and others are cases of investigators who have done actual, relevant, published work in the lab and/or detailed analysis, as well as publicly accessible discussions on the matter; even as molecular scale nanotechnology emerges as a discipline. Ponder here the Drexler Assembler. >> If you are already firmly convinced that there is a designer, it may work as a religiously based explanation, but it is scientifically uninteresting.>> 50: The projection of ideological question-begging. Instead, we see here, confession by projection. Thus, the telling relevance of Lewontin, as I mark up:
[Lewontin lets the cat out of the bag:] . . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
And so forth.kairosfocus
November 18, 2022
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AF, such "advice" from Panda's Thumb or the like is predictably tainted and grossly defective. PT is maybe half a notch above Wikipedia at best, and I will pause to illustrate my point, commenting in steps of thought enumerated for reference: Lars Johan Erkel, PT, Nov 16, 22: >>The central question is how to formulate a hypothesis, that is, a suggested explanation for a phenomenon.>> 1: Absolutely not, the issue is not so much hypothesis formulation but as I already noted yesterday:
hypothesis testing is not a central issue in debates about ID, at least as far as the principle goes: theoretical constructs need to pass factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power, with reliable predictive power as a key for survival so far but recognising that such cannot confer establishment as true as false antecedents can make many successful predictions. Thus, the pessimistic induction. The real issue is that through institutional domination a claimed mechanism for creating complex information and organisation that has never shown relevant capability beyond 500 – 1,000 bits of complexity, has been imposed. This spectacular violation of Newton’s Rules and its pernicious nature as taking origins studies ideological captive must be recognised.
2: As a yardstick of reference, forgive me for again putting on the table a classic case in point, as a point of reference and record:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
3: Thus, the issue is, that proposed causal mechanisms must per actual direct observation close at hand, show reliable capability to produce the like effects as traces from remote space, or the unobserved actual past of origins or events we did not see but must address in justice as in forensics. 4: This is a factual adequacy and reliability criterion, applied to suggested causes. 5: Where, the relevant broad causal factors available fall under the same heads, from Plato in The Laws Bk X to Monod in Chance and Necessity: blind chance, and/or blind mechanical necessity and/or intelligently directed configuration aka design by art -- techne, in Plato's terms. 6: No one has provided a convincing fourth, and neither cause from a true nothing [non-being has no causal powers] nor circular retro-causation [another form of something from nothing] are even candidates. 7: Causes can be explored per aspect, informed by their characteristics, kindly note the explanatory filter shown in the OP. Observe, the two defaults, blind necessity and/or chance. >> Hypotheses are not formulated in an arbitrary way; you don't just grab something out of the air.>> 8: Strawman. >>A hypothesis should be based on prior knowledge.>> 9: Either trivial or an injection of ideological loading dressed up in a lab coat, cf. Lewontin as a notorious case in point of injection of an arbitrary question begging ideological a priori and of dismissive contempt to the despised other that raises the issue of confession by projection. >> It should also be falsifiable, which means that it must be possible to show that it is incorrect.>> 9: Naive, Popper style falsificationism. Note, Kuhn on paradigms, their incommensuality and Lakatos on the armour belt of auxiliaries that protect the vulnerable core. 10: Further, note the problem of institutional ideological capture as Lewontin documented. Do not force me to have to quote him. >> The scientific work then consists of testing the hypothesis.>> 11: Hyps are NEVER tested in isolation, that is why it is sounder to see paradigms, research programmes, balance i/l/o factual adequacy, coherence, balance of explanatory power. 12: Where, mechanisms acceptable to evolutionary materialistic scientism have NEVER been shown per actual observation, to be capable of generating Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity. Whilst on trillions of cases intelligently directed configuration routinely does so. 13: Where, further, as some pretty specious objections are commonly manufactured here, let us note that as contingent creatures we manifestly cannot exhaust possibilities for designing agents. Cf SETI as an illustration of why that is widely recognised. >>Whether it proves to be true or false, something new has been learned.>> 14: Proof is not in the gift of science, and outright falsification of core theses is a difficult challenge given the armour belt of auxiliary hyps etc. >>The important thing here is that the hypothesis is formulated in such a way that it can be tested in practice with a clear-cut result.>> 15: Sixty years of advance in phil and history of science shows how naive and ideologically loaded this is. >> If you cannot do that, you cannot learn anything new.>> 16: No, given the issues over the past 60 years on warrant, knowledge and sciences. >>And if you cannot test your hypotheses, you cannot root your theories in the real world.>> 17: Notice the implications of flouting Newton's Rules on the central theses of evolutionary materialistic scientism. 18, To wit, a mechanism has been entrenched that lacks pivotal empirical support and acts as a crooked standard yardstick, so what DOES have such support is arbitrarily locked out and is even reacted to with obvious anger as it is a threat to a comfortable establishment. >> [ . . . . ] As an example of a falsifiable hypothesis that is scientifically acceptable, let us take a classic: Darwin's hypothesis of the common descent of life forms. It implies, among other implications, that older forms must lie below younger forms in the fossil record.>> 19: There are many "exceptions," and duly, auxiliary hyps are trotted out to explain such away, eg overthrusts, reworking of beds and the like. In fact the practical key to dating is index fossils and all sorts of devices are used to bring reluctant data into perceived alignment. >> In other words, a fossil of a reliably identified and reliably dated rabbit (or any other modern mammal) may not be found in Cambrian deposits, i.e. from a time long before the first mammals emerged.>> 20: Were such the case, there would be mechanisms to explain it away. This is a strawman distractor that evades the real issue, systematic gaps after 1/4 million fossil species identified over 160 years, millions of museum samples and billions seen in the ground. Barbados is a Caribbean island in key parts made up from cubic miles of fossil beds. >>Despite millions of fossils being unearthed, nothing has yet been found to disprove Darwin's hypothesis.>> 21: It was explained away, as just outlined. There is no empirically validated blind chance and/or mechanical necessity mechanism that gets us from a Darwin pond or the like to first cell based life at once OR cumulatively, and there is no such mechanism capable of producing body plans. 22: We have instead a central, heavily protected crooked yardstick thesis exhibiting ideological captivity to and censorship or even career busting to protect a priori evolutionary materialistic scientism. >>Still, in principle it could happen, and that would be a fundamental blow to the theory of evolution.>> 23: This red herring serves only to comfort those locked into the system. As we go on, we see the strawman tactics playing out further: >>Stephen Meyer devotes an entire appendix to discussing the matter in his 2009 book Signature in the Cell. He writes on page 482: "… the theory of intelligent design makes predictions about the kind of features we are likely to find in living systems if they were in fact intelligently designed".>> 24: Not acknowledged, a series of books documenting the details being summarised. So, a strawman is here set up. 25: An obvious context is Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I, and search challenge for atomic and temporal resources of the sol system or observed cosmos, 500 to 1,000 bits. 26: Where, as FSCO/I naturally tightly constrains functional vs non functional configurations (as the OP documents) there is a pattern of narrow, fine tuned zones of effective function amidst vast sees of non functional clumped or scattered states. 27: To work we need many right parts, correctly organised oriented, aligned, coupled. Thus, the island of function metaphor illustrated in OP 00 of course rhetorically derided and dismissed. 28: But it remains so and doubly so for a metabolic automaton with homeostasis promoting encapsulation and smart gating with a built in von Neumann kinematic self replicator, whether to come about all at once or cumulatively, as the search challenge to get to shorelines of function on a relatively negligible search dominates hoped for hill climbing on nice fitness functions. 29: Take as yardstick, the sol system of 10^57 atoms and ~ 10^17 s. Where as WLOG, we can reduce complex 3d structures to description language strings, discussion on strings is a good start point. So give each atom a tray of 500 coins [or if you wish, paramagnetic domains], and flip and observe 10^12 times/s as a generous search rate. 10^ [57 + 17 + 12] = 10^86. A large number but dwarfed by the space of configs for 500 coins, 3.27*10^150. Negligible search to space ratio, too much haystack, too little search opportunity to move the indicator away from effectively zero. As is illustrated in the OP. Wandering in seas of nonfunction. 30: That's before we address Tour's concerns on the chemistry and thermodynamics involved for one case in point. 31: We already see first serious steps of gene engineering and similar molecular nanotech, cf. Venter et al. So, we see best explanation at the root. 32: Similar, for origin of main body plans, illustrated by the Cambrian Explosion gaps that so much effort has been exerted to obfuscate. >>What is important here is the wording "we are likely to find" - ID's predictions are thus based on what one might vaguely expect to find.>> 33: Gross, willful, strawman tactic misrepresentation. >>Not on what one must find or on what one must not find, i.e. not on any compelling predictions.>> 34: Doubled down. What part of, you will never observe a case of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information beyond 500 to 1,000 bits is hard to understand by the willing, and would be hard to refute by counter example if there were such? Nothing. 35: A strawman has been set up and knocked over by refusing to address the actual case. That you AF present such to us after many years speaks telling volumes against you. 36: Let us show a simple actual test confessed to by Wikipedia:
[Wikipedia confesses regarding the infinite monkeys theorem:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed,
"VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t"
The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:
RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
[ACC: Dec 17, 2019. NB: Where, also, as this is a digital age, we will readily see that we can compose a description language and then create a string of yes/no questions to specify any reasonable object -- as say AutoCAD etc do. Thus, our seemingly simplistic discussion on bit strings *-*-*- . . . is in fact without loss of generality [WLOG].] [Comment: 16 - 24 ASCII characters is far short of the relevant thresholds, at best, a factor of about 1 in 10^100. Yes, the article goes on to note that "instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans." But, that is simply implicitly conceding that design makes a big difference to what can be done. ]
37: This has been repeatedly presented in your presence, there is no excuse. >>This means that one cannot clearly falsify an ID hypothesis.>> 38: Strawman knocked over. >>As an example, let us take an ID-inspired hypothesis that Meyer puts forward: "The functional sequences of amino acids within amino acid-sequence space should be extremely rare rather than common".>> 38: Correct, cf the pattern of deeply isolated fold domains without convenient stepping stones vs possibilities for AA sequences, much less wider organic chem. >> He argues that of all possible combinations of the amino acids that make up proteins, there should be very few combinations that result in functional protein structures.>> 39: Relatively, as just pointed out just on folding challenge. >> The first problem is that Meyer does not give a clear limit for what would be extremely rare and what would not,>> 40: Readily fleshed out, as GP did step by step for years, here and elsewhere. The predictable result is, shunting aside of inconvenient evidence and setting up strawman rhetorical targets like this. >>so the question is impossible to decide in practice - "extremely rare" can be interpreted in very different ways. >> 41: More strawman tactics. And more, but the point is clear. KFkairosfocus
November 18, 2022
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AF Don’t bring up Panda’s Thumb on this blog, you’ll start WW III…….chuckdarwin
November 17, 2022
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AF, zero concessions game again. Next, hypothesis testing is not a central issue in debates about ID, at least as far as the principle goes: theoretical constructs need to pass factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power, with reliable predictive power as a key for survival so far but recognising that such cannot confer establishment as true as false antecedents can make many successful predictions. Thus, the pessimistic induction. The real issue is that through institutional domination a claimed mechanism for creating complex information and organisation that has never shown relevant capability beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity, has been imposed. This spectacular violation of Newton's Rules and its pernicious nature as taking origins studies ideological captive must be recognised. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2022
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Q, you are sadly correct and the zero concessions sneering policy continues. More, later. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2022
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Just come across a good article here advising ID proponents how to do hypothesis testing. http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2022/11/erkell8.html#moreAlan Fox
November 17, 2022
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Querius to Kairosfocus.
I appreciate your well-organized, cogent comments.
Where are they? I've just skimmed through the thread and I seem to have missed them.Alan Fox
November 17, 2022
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KF, I appreciate your well-organized, cogent comments. "Sir Giles" now seems to be intellectually bankrupt, and has been simply resorting to disruptive noise. To me this demonstrates the priority of opposition over anything cogent, and it reveals deep frustration. Do you agree? -QQuerius
November 16, 2022
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PS, to save a round or two of needless back-forth, I highlight on the zero concessions policy, above, how there has been intransigence on the presence of coded algorithmic information in mRNA as used in AA chaining towards protein synthesis. I particularly note the case of the distractor on oh machine code loops and branches, which gave a smokescreen to cover up the fact that a sequence is a valid algorithmic structure. Notice your response on the point. If there is refusal to concede that that is real despite being a general point (as I documented from Lehninger and earlier from others) that is more than grounds to hold that unreasonable hyperskeptisism and projection are present and material. This particular matter has been sustained by objectors to the design inference for quite some weeks in the face of clear and valid reasons to acknowledge that proteins are based on AA chains that are assembled step by step in the ribosome, with start, extend, halt; using a successive sequence of codons expressing the widely known genetic code. And more.kairosfocus
November 16, 2022
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SG, projection and across the line. You know your "demand" for a good argument, which directly implies as I noted. I took time to lay out the general frame of my arguments, noting the Dawkins no concession policy and its implicit execution by too many objectors to ID. Across nigh on 500 comments you have failed to substantiate and latterly resorted to pretending that enumeration of points of response is a sign of bad argument. And, the attempt to pretend oh there are some good some bad can be seen as hollow, readily, e.g. in OP I argued that 2 + 3 = 5 is an example of a self evident truth, trivially true and good. The material import of your clip just above -- duly discounting weasel words -- is that where it counts on ID linked debates I am begging questions and locking out contrary evidence thus turning on half truths. In fact, ALL arguments rest at length on first givens or else fall into impossible infinite regress [thus, first plausibles]; so, as I noted, comparative difficulties allows addressing question begging and allows inference to the best explanation. You will be advised, that the design inference rests on such inference where it is readily shown that FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits is not plausibly the result of any blind chance and or necessity process, whether all at once or incrementally (once there is a requisite of complex function and the configuration space is sufficiently large). It turns out Weasel, raised by your side, pre loads its target and rewards gibberish for mere proximity, also showing fine tuning. As for Newton's rule, this is a sound criterion that proposed causes be shown to actually produce the like effect, not an arbitrary ideological exclusion like methodological naturalism. Your projection of question begging is a turnabout projection. KFkairosfocus
November 16, 2022
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KF: Recall, this thread is in fact in direct answer to his blanket accusation of bad argumentation,
I usually make it a point not to respond to an outright, bald faced lie, because it usually is the result of someone not willing to discuss issues in good faith. But I will make an exception in this case. Here is one of my comments from near the top of this thread.
As with all of us, some arguments [KF’s]are good and some are bad. In KF’s case, most of his bad arguments are due to the fact that their foundations are based on unproven premises and/or the exclusion of any contrary evidence.
Hardly a blanket accusation of bad argumentation.Sir Giles
November 16, 2022
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F/N: Plato, long ago, warned us:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless, lawless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [--> for those caught up in the philosopher kings concept, notice the subtle despair here] [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers [--> note, "professed"], the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed.
[--> even among the students of the sound state (here, via political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical . . . and, we may add for emphasis, even among those trained, high quality, potential breakthrough state, thought, military, civil, culture etc leaders of high competence, prudence and character are rare by comparison with those of failed character and/or competence, so the implication is we need to treasure the genuinely sound and build on it, conserving it and holding to the priority of tested character, competence and lawfulness in balance. Patient, cumulative reformation and transformation of fundamentally prudent, cumulative character, not the radicalism of political messianism and associated fatally flawed would be saviours of the state. I dare to suggest that in recent centuries, this -- the US DoI, 1776 -- is a breakthrough moment, especially its famous second paragraph]
[Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
KFkairosfocus
November 16, 2022
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In short you continue to show that you had nothing of substance to say to begin with, and, sadly, continue in that state.kairosfocus
November 16, 2022
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KF, W? qiángliè tu?jiàn táng cù j? wán.Sir Giles
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