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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Again, for record.

Comments
F/N: On algorithms, AmHD has a helpful definition:
al·go·rithm (?l?g?-r?th??m) n. A finite set of unambiguous instructions [--> encoded, or otherwise expressed] that, given some set of initial conditions [--> start], can be performed in a prescribed sequence to achieve a certain goal [--> goal directed] and that has a recognizable set of end conditions [--> halt]. [Variant (probably influenced by arithmetic) of algorism.] . . . . American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company.
Resemblance to the definition I have used, is not coincidental. That is, it is fair to define an algorithm as a finite, goal-directed step by step sequence of procedures that halts. The use of explicit, specific instructions implies an encoding, thus language. (I note that there are automata that use a bar with a string of cams and may step a cam follower from one cam to the next, to execute the sequence of analogue steps. This is somewhat similar to the familiar case of a cam shaft on a reciprocating engine.) The instructions, of course, express a logic of process, and at machine executable level, activate definite action steps towards a goal. In the Ribosome, as Wikipedia confesses:
Ribosomes ( /?ra?b??so?m, -bo?-/) are macromolecular machines, found within all cells, that perform biological protein synthesis (mRNA translation). Ribosomes link amino acids together in the order specified by the codons of messenger RNA (mRNA) molecules to form polypeptide chains. Ribosomes consist of two major components: the small and large ribosomal subunits. Each subunit consists of one or more ribosomal RNA (rRNA) molecules and many ribosomal proteins (RPs or r-proteins).[1][2][3] The ribosomes and associated molecules are also known as the translational apparatus.
Let's take that in steps of thought: >>Ribosomes ( /?ra?b??so?m, -bo?-/) are macromolecular machines,>> 1: It is commonplace to recognise molecular nanotech machines in the cell. Where, Wikipedia -- no friend to ID -- under duress of massive facts and a consensus of knowledge, further confesses:
A machine is a physical system using power to apply forces and control movement [--> work in the physical sense, goal directed via logic of process] to perform an action [--> the intent of the power applied through force to generate ordered motion] . The term is commonly applied to artificial devices, such as those employing engines or motors, but also to natural biological macromolecules, such as molecular machines. Machines can be driven by animals and people, by natural forces such as wind and water, and by chemical, thermal, or electrical power, and include a system of mechanisms that shape the actuator input to achieve a specific application of output forces and movement. They can also include computers and sensors that monitor performance and plan movement, often called mechanical systems . . . . Modern machines are complex systems that consist of structural elements, mechanisms and control components and include interfaces for convenient use. Examples include: a wide range of vehicles, such as trains, automobiles, boats and airplanes; appliances in the home and office, including computers, building air handling and water handling systems; as well as farm machinery, machine tools and factory automation systems and robots.
3: The Ribosome can be further identified as a numerically controlled machine, where the control tape is the algorithm encoded using the genetic code as expressed in codons based on GCAU, in mRNA. 4: These care transcribed from the GCAT form in DNA, and may be edited before being fed to the Ribosome for execution. >>found within all cells,>> 5: Being, key to creating proteins, workhorses of metabolism and wider cell structure and function. >> that perform biological protein synthesis (mRNA translation)>> 6: Identifying the goal-direction. >>Ribosomes link amino acids together in the order specified by the codons of messenger RNA (mRNA) molecules>> 7: Stepwise finite sequence from initiation to elongation and halting, using mRNA as a control tape that stores the sequence of coded instructions. 8: Thus, algorithmic character and linguistic character. >> to form polypeptide chains>> 9: The particular objective within the process logic of protein synthesis, onward processing may be involved. KF PS, such things are readily accessible, are generally acknowledged, are so well known that Wikipedia must confess to them. Why then, the zero concession denialism and related hyperskeptical rhetoric here at UD? Because, here, we draw out import. The typical protein is 300 AA long, where each codon has 6 bits of informational capacity, i.e. 1800 bits for a typical protein, though redundancies etc gear this down, e.g. the typical 20 state protein space [there are odd exceptions], has 4.32 bits per AA raw, less due to inevitable practical constraints and further redundancy. There are of course many hundreds of proteins in life forms so we are far beyond the 500 - 1,000 bit complexity threshold where it becomes maximally implausible that -- from start -- a blind chance and/or mechanical necessity search in a Darwin pond or the like, would create an adequate protein and gene set for life functionality. Besides, algorithms are goal directed and codes are so linguistic that our languages can be described in terms of codes pivoting on symbolic representation. That is, all of this reeks of highly reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration; which is by institutional lockout, deemed inadmissible by the establishment under canons of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers.kairosfocus
November 16, 2022
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Kindly cf my F/N. Sufficient has been said on this distraction to show it is little more than a squid ink cloud, behind which the squid hopes to make his escape. Recall, this thread is in fact in direct answer to his blanket accusation of bad argumentation, an accusation he has now conclusively shown he is unable to substantiate. Fundamentally, we are dealing with the undeclared form of the Dawkins zero concessions policy.kairosfocus
November 15, 2022
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KF: SG, your utter lack of cogency is further confirmed.
Dig, dig, dig. Hu?nyíng lái dào zh?ngguóSir Giles
November 15, 2022
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SG, your utter lack of cogency is further confirmed. KF PS, I add, recall, we have been seeing a song and dance for a few days where SG hit on the idea of attacking enumerated step by step points in reply to an argument that is also cited in steps, on the imagined rhetorical crime of enumeration. Notice, there is no addressing of substance (which is obviously being subjected to the Dawkins style zero concessions policy), just a pretence that enumerating points lends a false air of authority. When in fact, enumeration has an obvious purpose that I illustrated earlier, offering specific points of reference to carry forward a discussion. Indeed, rather like verse enumeration in a certain world famous text SG doubtless despises, where chapters and verses were inserted precisely for ease of reference. In response to which, he further doubled down. It is sadly, quite clear that SG is not being serious. kairosfocus
November 15, 2022
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KF@475, I hope that you are conversant in Mandarin because if you keep digging it will come in handy. :)Sir Giles
November 15, 2022
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And notice the highly sophisticated design of the allegedly primitive dragon fly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJi61NAIsjskairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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PS, from a parallel thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvB0q3mg4sQkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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SG, do I need to spell it out, such as referring to 474 just above, point 3 subpoints p, q and cors 1 to 3 [a skeletonised and augmented argument]? Or, similarly LFP Series, 63, comment 474:10 a through f, noting a cross reference? You are simply digging yourself further down in the hole of a distraction. Breach of common sense fail. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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JVL, >>Ruts don’t only stop you from changing your view<> they also stop you from changing your goal.>> 3: At least, you acknowledge that intelligent creatures are goal directed. But, whence cometh the responsible, rational freedom to have goals? Surely, not a blindly dynamic-stochastic GIGO limited computational substrate. And yes, I here point to something else that you may well distractively deride as a rut while refusing to acknowledge longstanding cogency. Yes, let the record of self defeating incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers be remembered:
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
>>You’re stuck.>> 4: Turnabout projection. Instead, as just highlighted, it is evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers that are stuck, stuck in self referential, self falsifying assertions but cannot come to recognition of core failure. >> You cannot accept new data which challenges your view.>> 5: Your attempts to dismiss what codes and algorithms are, and that such are manifestly present in the protein synthesis translation phase, are what have failed, indeed it would be incredible if this were not there in cold black and white for all to see. 6: A stepwise, coded, goal directed instruction sequence that does not branch, is still an algorithm and the genetic code used is a code, which uses symbolic representation and is of the character of language. >> You cannot consider being wrong.>> 7: Manifestly false. Just show us that an algorithm is not fairly described as a finite goal directed stepwise procedure that halts and it would correct the error on my part, you wish to suggest. The reality is, the definition and its consequence that an algorithm needs not have looping or branching are correct. Similarly, that codes are inherently linguistic. >> It appears you will become more and more fringe,>> 8: Marginalisation rhetoric, in absence of a solution as at 7, fail. >> not a part of the scientific method.>> 9: There is of course no THE scientific method, denoting a one size fits all and only cases conventionally identified as sciences. 10: Instead, there are methods, plural, used in various such investigations, which are of logical and epistemological character shared with many other responsible disciplines or even day to day common sense. Particularly,
a - Observation as accountability before reality as much as a source of fresh information. b - Inference, explanatory constructs of abductive character, with reliability tested by predictive power, where this must not be confused with establishment of ultimate truth. c - Onward empirical testing as further accountability before reality, thence growth and transformation tempered by the pessimistic induction. d - Where, Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I is readily observable, on trillions of seen cases beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity is a reliable sign of cause by intelligently directed configuration, including that WLOG, organisation can be reduced, per compact description language, to meaningful strings such as the von Neumann Kinematic self replicator uses to guide self assembly or the work of an integrated [universal] constructor. e - Where, too, the key constraint of specific configuration of multiple matched parts with correct orientation and coupling to achieve function sharply confines acceptable configurations to narrow zones in the abstract space of clumped or scattered configurations, so that FSCO/I is naturally fine tuned and exhibits a pattern of islands of function in the configuration space. f - And in particular, at 285 above, it was highlighted as fresh facts to be recognised, that Weasel exhibits such fine tuning to achieve its function, which is fresh information for this discussion and sparked a furious barrage of objections that failed to face that readily confirmed and quire plausible circumstance. Where, we may cross reference Ey and Batten from 285 as cited there, with an added comment:
The program described herein mimics Dawkins’ program, but also provides the user with the opportunity to explore different values for the parameters such as the mutation rate, number of offspring, the selection coefficient, and the ‘genome’ size. Varying the values for these parameters shows that Dawkins chose his values carefully to get the result he wanted. Furthermore, the user can see that, with realistic values for the parameters, the number of generations needed to achieve convergence increases to such an extent that it shows that evolution of organisms with long generation times and small numbers of offspring is not possible even with a uniformitarian time-frame. [–> we thus see not only design but fine tuning and locally isolated operating zones, i.e. islands of function, naturally and unsurprisingly emerging]
. . . yes, SG, just for you, FYI.
11: On origins subjects, the Newton Rules highlighted in a volume title by Sir Charles Lyell in founding modern Geology, are of particular relevance, overturning the impositions that lurk behind methodological naturalism. >> Especially since you produce no science yourself.>> 12: Personality, but of course on the broader scope this is little more than the false assertion that the censorship plagued design thinkers have failed to publish in the teeth of censorship. Which is false, many times over false. 13: More to the point, I recently raised the issue of an adaptation of the JoHari window to the circumstance of the ideological captivity of a knowledge commons resulting in its being tainted by poorly warranted ideological claims posing as knowledge. 14: In that context, we see the need for reformation movements to move forward independent of the censors and other ideological gate keepers, doing their own analytical review -- cf 388 above on the Darwinist framework -- and synthesis, as well as independent investigations. 15: That is now, clearly, where we are. 16: The zero concession policy and refusal to acknowledge even so manifest a case as the algorithmic character of protein translation speak, and not in your favour. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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KF: SG, more squid ink puffery. You have tried to set up a distraction (cf. here for a sidelight, onlookers)
And, strangely, your linked example is a good example of a numbered paragraph document. That is, a nested enumeration format, where the major headings are numerically incremented, and the paragraphs under each heading enumerated, starting with 1 in under each heading. Nothing at all like your ridiculous attempt at giving your comments more credibility by numbering each sentence. You could end this stupid argument by simply admitting what everyone else knows; that your approach to enumeration is not the numbered paragraph approach and is not commonly used anywhere.Sir Giles
November 14, 2022
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PM1 (attn JVL): >>The issue is whether the concept of algorithm is the best term for understanding these biomolecular processes.>> 1: You have seen and had no cogent answer to what codes are and to what algorithms are. For example, as I noted and augmented by citing Wikipedia's confession, language can be seen as a first instance of code and codes use arbitrary symbolisation to store and transmit meaningful, functional information. There are no codes that are not of linguistic character. Likewise, it is a fair definition to hold that algorithms are finite, step by step processes that are goal directed and halt. The translation process fits this and is algorithmic, period. 2: JVL's distraction that frequently algorithms have branches or loops, as I pointed out in reply, does not remove a sequence structure from being an algorithm. 3: As the OP documents and as is readily accessible elsewhere, we do have under program control of mRNA, a finite, stepwise sequence of instructions advancing three letter codon by codon, from Start ---- load methonine, to elongation steps with specific AAs as specified per the genetic code, to stop per said code. 4: Thus, this phase of the protein synthesis process, translation, objectively shows an algorithm in action. There are no cogent objections to this well documented fact that should be simply and frankly acknowledged. 5: The piling up of all sorts of distractive objections and evasions as seen above shows that the point is made and is telling so the zero concessions policy is resorted to. >>JVL and I have both indicated why this is the wrong concept.>> 6: False, as I responded to and have gone on to extend by noting Wikipedia's confessions on language and code. >> In response, I have not seen anything from you that actually responds to the challenges we have raised,>> 7: False, as was just explained. >>but rather a mere repetition of the very point to which we are objecting.>> 8: again false, as just explained. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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JVL, selective hyperskepticism on your part for years has not changed the balance of warrant. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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SG, more squid ink puffery. You have tried to set up a distraction (cf. here for a sidelight, onlookers) behind which you are evading addressing the substance, a strong sign of your want of cogency on the matter at stake. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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KF: Trying to obsess over enumeration of points laid out in steps of thought and twisting that into chaotic misnumberings, and calling enumeration bizarre or the like is a capital case in point of a red herring distraction, led away to a strawman caricature, soaked in polarisation driven personalities and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and further polarise the atmosphere for discussion. It serves no other purpose.
Neither does numbering every sentence in a comment. But if it gives you the false sense of authority and importance, fill your boots.Sir Giles
November 14, 2022
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F/N: More from Wiki:
In information theory and computer science, a code is usually considered as an algorithm that uniquely represents symbols from some source alphabet, by encoded strings, which may be in some other target alphabet. An extension of the code for representing sequences of symbols over the source alphabet is obtained by concatenating the encoded strings. Before giving a mathematically precise definition, this is a brief example. The mapping C = { a ? 0 , b ? 01 , c ? 011 } is a code, whose source alphabet is the set { a , b , c } and whose target alphabet is the set { 0 , 1 } . Using the extension of the code, the encoded string 0011001 can be grouped into codewords as 0?011?0?01, and these in turn can be decoded to the sequence of source symbols acab. Using terms from formal language theory, the precise mathematical definition of this concept is as follows: let S and T be two finite sets, called the source and target alphabets, respectively. A code C : S ? T ? is a total function mapping each symbol from S to a sequence of symbols over T. The extension C ? C' of C C, is a homomorphism of S ? into T ? , which naturally maps each sequence of source symbols to a sequence of target symbols.
KF PS, In due course I will sample some key points and comment. For starters, PM1: >>We can say that we’ve observed intelligent beings (namely us) crafting linguistic assertions and building programs>> 1: We exemplify but by our contingent nature cannot exhaust language using, program coding intelligences 2: However our case gives us excellent reason to hold that language use including composition of algorithm executing programs and execution machines is a strong sign of a high order of intelligence. >> — though even there I think there’s much more tinkering and tweaking and messing about than ID folks usually acknowledge.>> 3: Intelligent trial and error is not blind random or mechanical walks at arbitrary loci in configuration spaces. Distractive dismissal fails. >> But we certainly haven’t observed the intelligence supposedly responsible for creating the genetic code.>> 3: Which is not a rational or scientific requisite, Newton's rule is precisely about this case of scientifically addressing what we did not directly observe. Do we want to dismiss knowledge of far space, far times or events we did not happen to witness? What would happen to say jurisprudence? What would the consequence be for civilisation? 4: I draw attention, again, to Lyell's statement, in the context of founding modern Geology:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
>>And while we haven’t observed the emergence of teleology,>> 5: Distractive, we are dealing with Newton's rule, we know that purposive inteligent direction of configuration is possible, is actual, and produces characteristic signs. We are entitled to infer to it on signs. >> we have observed and learned a great deal about far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics. >> 6: Including that dissipative structures such as convection cells do not compose complex structured functional organisation such as meaningful linguistic or algorithmic text beyond 500 to 1000 bits, much less required execution machinery. >>So I really don’t see>> 7: One;s seeing or failing to see is not the same category as what is warranted. >>how my proposal is any less empirical or more speculative than yours.>> 8: Dissipative structures fail Newton's rule for cause of FSCO/I rich systems, intelligently directed configuration is the only and utterly reliably observed cause, on trillions of actually observed cases. 9: Thus, we may freely infer on signs that an observation of FSCO/I where we did not directly observe has as best current explanation, intelligently designed configuration. 10: When you can show a counter example, and dissipative structures are chance and/or necessity, then we will have reason to revise, but not until. I am not holding my breath.kairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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P.S. Regarding parsimony, which of these is a simpler approximation of a factor in computing gravitational attraction: 1/r or 1/r^2? - QQuerius
November 14, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @458,
And unless one were to insist that all information is linguistic . . .
I find this personally interesting, since I’ve not been able to find a satisfying scientific definition of information. Linguistics are a number of codes (different languages) comprising sound waves and geometric shapes (also commonly in binary format) for the purpose of transferring information or concepts (not to address mathematics, art, and music for now). Considering Clifford Stoll’s famous observation, “Data is not information, information is not knowledge, knowledge is not understanding, understanding is not wisdom,” I’d add that random noise is not data, and that differentiating between each of these categories can be extremely challenging. For example, modern cryptography creates strings that are nearly random. Let me also point out that “Shannon information” addresses data compression rather than information. Here’s how genome.gov defines DNA Sequencing: . . . encodes the biological information that cells use . . . https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/DNA-Sequencing So, could someone use A, T, C, and G in a string of DNA to encode a message in English?
. . . is it more parsimonious to posit an intelligent being as the originator of biological information or to posit that teleological structures emerged from less complex systems that can maintain themselves far from thermodynamic equilibrium with their environments?
This is an interesting question that raises more questions. - Can one directly observe or measure either of these possibilities? - How could one begin to evaluate parsimony to compare these possibilities and would information be involved? -QQuerius
November 14, 2022
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F/N: Point of reference, a Wikipedia confession regarding code:
In communications and information processing, code is a system of rules to convert information—such as a letter, word, sound, image, or gesture—into another form, sometimes shortened or secret, for communication through a communication channel or storage in a storage medium. An early example is an invention of language, which enabled a person, through speech, to communicate what they thought, saw, heard, or felt to others. But speech limits the range of communication to the distance a voice can carry and limits the audience to those present when the speech is uttered. The invention of writing, which converted spoken language into visual symbols, extended the range of communication across space and time. The process of encoding converts information from a source into symbols for communication or storage. Decoding is the reverse process, converting code symbols back into a form that the recipient understands, such as English or/and Spanish. One reason for coding is to enable communication in places where ordinary plain language, spoken or written, is difficult or impossible. For example, semaphore, where the configuration of flags held by a signaler or the arms of a semaphore tower encodes parts of the message, typically individual letters, and numbers. Another person standing a great distance away can interpret the flags and reproduce the words sent.
KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2022
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@461
1: the issue is the presence of an algorithm at all, in the AA chaining process in the Ribosome and thus in the coded DNA segments that undergird it.
Not at all. The issue is whether the concept of algorithm is the best term for understanding these biomolecular processes. JVL and I have both indicated why this is the wrong concept. In response, I have not seen anything from you that actually responds to the challenges we have raised, but rather a mere repetition of the very point to which we are objecting.
2: Codes, are inherently linguistic, in fact it can be said the other way around, languages are encodings. For, 3: they pivot on symbolic representation, where there is a more or less arbitrary assignment in that meaningful representation.
A linguistic being can take something as a code, sure -- just ask a dendrochronologist. That doesn't mean that all codes are themselves inherently linguistic. But anyway that's a red herring, since the relationship between genes and peptide sequences has nothing at all to do with symbols or meanings.
4: This extends to mathematical symbolisation and the extension of such to the control of computational substrates.
I can't really tell what point you think is being made here.
5: On the related design inference, the issue is in effect empirical grounding and related analysis of alternative proposed causal factors. 6: Reliably, complex codes [expressions of language] and algorithms [goal-directed] are associated with intelligently directed configuration, where we can observe. Such points to a regularity of the world.
I don't think anyone here is denying that the world displays regularity in its causal and modal structure.
7: In context, alternative proposals, of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, have never been observed to produce code strings beyond 500 – 1,000 bits, a threshold of relevant complexity that exhausts at low end the search resources of our sol system, and at the high end, the observed cosmos.
Dembskian chicanery.
8: The notion of emergence of homeostatic [so, encapsulated and smart gated], self replicating metabolic automatica spontaneously organising themselves out of a Darwin’s pond or the like completely lacks observational support; Tour’s summary in the OP is illuminating.
Granted, we haven't observed the emergence of teleological systems from non-teleological far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics. But we haven't observed the intelligent designers responsible for creating the genetic code, either. So it's a question of which postulation is more reasonable.
9: It is speculation, dressed up in a lab coat and institutionally backed, standing in for an observationally anchored solution.
We can say that we've observed intelligent beings (namely us) crafting linguistic assertions and building programs -- though even there I think there's much more tinkering and tweaking and messing about than ID folks usually acknowledge. But we certainly haven't observed the intelligence supposedly responsible for creating the genetic code. And while we haven't observed the emergence of teleology, we have observed and learned a great deal about far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics. So I really don't see how my proposal is any less empirical or more speculative than yours.PyrrhoManiac1
November 14, 2022
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PS, update 6, on the filter.kairosfocus
November 13, 2022
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JVL & SG, you have descended into strawman caricature, mockery and insubstantial accusation, projection and false accusation. Trying to obsess over enumeration of points laid out in steps of thought and twisting that into chaotic misnumberings, and calling enumeration bizarre or the like is a capital case in point of a red herring distraction, led away to a strawman caricature, soaked in polarisation driven personalities and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and further polarise the atmosphere for discussion. It serves no other purpose. Likewise, it is manifest that as a minority paradigm design theory has had to grapple with the other side at every step, indeed the very design inference explanatory filter is a reflection on alternatives and their observable characteristics. Fail. Sad, but telling. Not least, it shows that you do not have a cogent case. Which, after over a decade of exchanges, is utterly revealing about the state of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2022
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PM1, 1: the issue is the presence of an algorithm at all, in the AA chaining process in the Ribosome and thus in the coded DNA segments that undergird it. 2: Codes, are inherently linguistic, in fact it can be said the other way around, languages are encodings. For, 3: they pivot on symbolic representation, where there is a more or less arbitrary assignment in that meaningful representation. 4: This extends to mathematical symbolisation and the extension of such to the control of computational substrates. 5: On the related design inference, the issue is in effect empirical grounding and related analysis of alternative proposed causal factors. 6: Reliably, complex codes [expressions of language] and algorithms [goal-directed] are associated with intelligently directed configuration, where we can observe. Such points to a regularity of the world. 7: In context, alternative proposals, of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, have never been observed to produce code strings beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, a threshold of relevant complexity that exhausts at low end the search resources of our sol system, and at the high end, the observed cosmos. 8: The notion of emergence of homeostatic [so, encapsulated and smart gated], self replicating metabolic automatica spontaneously organising themselves out of a Darwin's pond or the like completely lacks observational support; Tour's summary in the OP is illuminating. 9: It is speculation, dressed up in a lab coat and institutionally backed, standing in for an observationally anchored solution. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2022
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Kairosfocus: Very well, then you also know that the other substantial points are quite correct also, never mind an attempted piling on. Funny that I disagreed with them then. Further, as there is a need to note facts before drawing consequences, it is quite appropriate to state them, including for present and future onlookers. Even if you come across sounding like a secondary school teacher? Perhaps. Why not just assume your audience is intelligent and can check things out for themselves? Or, do you think . . . that the ID crowd wouldn't understand the basics of computer science? If that's the case then I apologise. While machine code may contain branches, loops and case structures, that does not disqualify sequences [which are normally part of those more complex structures). Virtually all machine code does include those structures. Again, even a player piano can carry out a simple list of instructions. Similarly, such code may be in read only memory, here DNA. You heard it here folks, Kairosfocus agrees with me that DNA is akin to ROM. Thank you. And thank you. I'll be signing autographs after the show. Transcription to mRNA can involve editing in eukaryotes. In the Ribosome, the sequences are executed as start, load methionine, extend, extend, . . . halt. Thus, we see an algorithm in coded form, and it has the manifest functional goal of providing AA chains for protein formation. Yes, each of those instruction sequences are like a recipe or a player piano roll. Not at all like the complex nature of modern machine code which addresses and accesses and modifies and stores data into memory locations. In fact, even just executing a simple, basic calculation requires addressing and modifying memory locations. Does DNA do that? Does it? Thus, we have a perfect epistemic right to infer the consequences of coded algorithms. You can infer what you like. But that doesn't mean your inference to your analogy is strong enough to infer design. That is the point. If the analogy breaks down then the inference is in question. Of course, Lehninger and many others are on record that the genetic, protein assembling code is a code, which is linguistic. I'd be happy to talk to Dr Lehninger if they wanted to engage in such a discussion. See, I don't worship authorities or necessarily accept everything they say. Oddly enough, you seem to pick and choose which biological 'experts' you believe and which you diss. Funny that. How you pick out the opinions that you agree with and discard those you don't agree with. Is that science? I don't think so. As something algorithmic, it is also goal directed. So is pooping, and yawning, and farting, and eating, and sleeping and blinking . . . lots of things are unconscious and done out of necessity. These are reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration, independent of objections or rhetorical barbs to the contrary. Clearly that is a matter of opinion. Just admit that and we can get on and have an actual intelligent conversation instead of you just asserting the same things over and over and over again with the same arguments you've used for years and years and years. Those arguments, I might add, have not carried the day, i.e. they have not convinced the vast, vast majority of biological scientists that your view is correct. Now, most intelligent people would, with that kind of opposition, look for another argument, more data, something that would, perhaps, convince their interlopers that they had the right tact. Strangely, you don't do that. You just keep repeating the same old same old year after year after year. And even when someone takes the time to reply to one of your numbered lists of objections you just can't free yourself of your rut. Ruts don't only stop you from changing your view they also stop you from changing your goal. You're stuck. You cannot accept new data which challenges your view. You cannot consider being wrong. It appears you will become more and more fringe, not a part of the scientific method. Especially since you produce no science yourself. Good luck in your unscientific rut.JVL
November 13, 2022
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Sir Giles: JVL, see what I mean. Yes. From a strangely soothing point of view, I expected it. I think I may adopt KF’s bizarre numeration style. ? Well .. . a) you would be giving his approach tacit approval 2) you would be expected to continue on with that scheme from that point onward ***) What is the point? &%££*) Powerpoint presentation anyone?JVL
November 13, 2022
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@456
Thus, we see an algorithm in coded form, and it has the manifest functional goal of providing AA chains for protein formation. Thus, we have a perfect epistemic right to infer the consequences of coded algorithms. Of course, Lehninger and many others are on record that the genetic, protein assembling code is a code, which is linguistic. As something algorithmic, it is also goal directed.
The process of transcription and translation can be described as algorithmic only if one abstracts away from all the respects in which it is not algorithmic. The genetic code is a code only insofar as there's a mapping relation between nucleotide triplets and amino acids. That says nothing about whether it is "linguistic" or not. Just because one can encode linguistic information, it does not follow that every code must therefore be linguistic. And unless one were to insist that all information is linguistic, I don't see how the inference is even supposed to work. And while I agree that transcription and translation are crucial to biological functions (who would disagree?) that certainly does not address the central question: is it more parsimonious to posit an intelligent being as the originator of biological information or to posit that teleological structures emerged from less complex systems that can maintain themselves far from thermodynamic equilibrium with their environments?PyrrhoManiac1
November 13, 2022
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JVL, see what I mean. KF has just confirmed point number 3 in my comment@455. And possibly points 5 and 18. I think I may adopt KF’s bizarre numeration style. ?Sir Giles
November 13, 2022
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JVL (attn SG): It seems you have managed to agree (with a barb), claiming to have adequate knowledge. Very well, then you also know that the other substantial points are quite correct also, never mind an attempted piling on. Further, as there is a need to note facts before drawing consequences, it is quite appropriate to state them, including for present and future onlookers. While machine code may contain branches, loops and case structures, that does not disqualify sequences [which are normally part of those more complex structures). Similarly, such code may be in read only memory, here DNA. Transcription to mRNA can involve editing in eukaryotes. In the Ribosome, the sequences are executed as start, load methionine, extend, extend, . . . halt. Thus, we see an algorithm in coded form, and it has the manifest functional goal of providing AA chains for protein formation. Thus, we have a perfect epistemic right to infer the consequences of coded algorithms. Of course, Lehninger and many others are on record that the genetic, protein assembling code is a code, which is linguistic. As something algorithmic, it is also goal directed. These are reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration, independent of objections or rhetorical barbs to the contrary. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2022
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JVL: I understand this stuff better than you do, clearly.
3) You are dealing with someone who is pathologically incapable of admitting to those he considers to be his intellectual inferiors that he is in error. 62) And make no mistake, he considers anyone who disagrees with him to be his intellectual inferior. 7) All you have to do is look at his defence of his enumeration of comments quirk as a common practice used in numbered paragraph papers. 123) An easily verified falsehood. 4) And one that just makes him look ridiculous. 17.4) Yet he will go to his grave claiming that what he is doing is the same as that used in numbered paragraph papers. 5) Reading KF’s “correctives” is like listening to a televangelist. 18) Entertaining but of little substance.Sir Giles
November 13, 2022
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Kairosfocus: machine code is machine-executable code, one step above the physical level in the usual layer cake stack of virtual machines riding on the hardware. Why do you have to be so condescending? Like you're talking to a high school student? I understand this stuff better than you do, clearly.JVL
November 13, 2022
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Querius: JVL provides no support for the majority of his assertions and negations, makes stuff up, denies his ignorance when pointed out to him, and then picks nits on definitions. For example, when he asserts that DNA has no RAM storage, he’s apparently referring LITERALLY to Random Access Memory CHIPS specifically rather than by analogy. He’s blissfully unaware of heritable epigenetic programming from environmental stresses. Clearly I didn't mean actual silicon chips! I meant something like that!! Heritable epigenetic factors do not come from the DNA though DO THEY! They are not generated as a result of the DNA being 'read' or transcribed. Random access memory is accessed and changed by machine code! I don't know why I bother. Like Kairosfocus you clearly don't really understand either the biological or the computer systems very well. You latch onto some words or phrases and think they mean the same thing when they don't. You guys just deal with analogies all the time without the ability to check out to see how far they work. The fact that information can be carried and stored by a succession of different technologies and media appears completely beyond his comprehension! I am well aware of epigenetic factors despite your incredibly condescending attitude.JVL
November 13, 2022
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