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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Again, for record.

Comments
KF: The thorns are crackling. KF
Something is crackling.Sir Giles
November 11, 2022
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SG, doubling down on evading substance; dismissal because points of argument are in an enumerated list that enables reference. The thorns are crackling. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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KF: SG, calling sneering at ENUMERATION of points to dismiss them (when that is fairly common for skeletal arguments as points of reference) simply exposes your want of substance backed by an attitude that reeks of the notorious Dawkins formulation headlined above.
I only have a few responses to this: 1) The way you enumerate responses to several comments is certainly not common in the real world. 2) It is common to enumerate several responses to a single comment. 3) If you are going to make several responses to several comments, it is common to start each series of responses at one.
You have fully removed yourself from serious consideration. KF
Just two points: 1) Ridiculing someone for using enumeration in a ridiculous manner is a valid criticism 2) Dismissing someone from consideration for pointing out a ridiculous use of enumeration in discussion dismisses you from any serious consideration. See. That is the common use of enumeration in a discussion.Sir Giles
November 11, 2022
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PS, that is how far off Alinsky's remark about ridicule as the most potent agit prop weapon is.kairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Jerry, it is actually quite evident that the first duties of reason are at the root of the problem. Want of regard for such is symptomatic of the problem with our civilisation and why it is on a lemming march. I duly noted for record. The matter will look very different from the bottom of the cliff, ask Plato about that, especially what he meant in Ship of State. Or, do I need to quote Solomon on how the laughter of fools is as the crackling of thorns under a pot . . . and will predictably end in ashes. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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JVL, do you imagine that you can ignore what was done in answer to your challenges and pretend that I have not answered carefully on OoL, without consequences for your own credibility? You have had sufficient answers for any reasonable purpose, we can safely take it that you have no cogent case. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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SG, calling sneering at ENUMERATION of points to dismiss them (when that is fairly common for skeletal arguments as points of reference) simply exposes your want of substance backed by an attitude that reeks of the notorious Dawkins formulation headlined above. You have fully removed yourself from serious consideration. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Jerry: Somebody makes up nonsense and not responding to nonsense is somehow an indictment. Do you think me asking you if you can explain where certain morphological variations are 'kept' or 'stored' is nonsense? I mean since you've said over and over that genetics is not part of evolution. This creator also made choices as the universe is created in a specific way. And what other choices could they have made IF, as most Christians assert, that humans beings were created in God's image and given free will so they could love God on their own account? Or maybe you think the designer made choices for other reasons. What reason would those be then? Oh, and also: do you think humans are the culmination of the designers' selective breeding programme or just another transitional species?JVL
November 11, 2022
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all we get is that these things are not part of ID.
Do true statements bother you? Somebody makes up nonsense and not responding to nonsense is somehow an indictment. The designer of the universe is an extremely intelligent entity that is also very powerful. Our universe apparently was-created 13.8 billion years ago. This creator also made choices as the universe is created in a specific way. Just to show that these stupid questions never seem to disappear, here is a comment from almost 14 years ago
Yes, I make sarcastic remarks because absurdity deserves it. If I hear one more person wanting to know what FSCI is, I will scream. I explained it to my niece in 4th grade and she understood it and thought it was neat. But she is really a bright kid. Someone actually wants the laboratory techniques used 3.8 billion years ago. You talk about bizarre. I say a thousand as hyperbole and Mark in all seriousness says there is probably only a dozen. Mark wants the actual technique used a few billion years ago. Mark, I got word from the designer a few weeks ago and he said the original lab and blue prints were subducted under what was to become the African plate 3.4 billion years ago but by then they were mostly rubble anyway. The original cells were relatively simple but still very complex. Subsequent plants/labs went the same way and unfortunately all holograph videos of it are now in hyper space and haven’t been looked at for at least 3 million years. So to answer one of your questions, no further work has been done for quite awhile and the designer expects future work to be done by the latest design itself. The designer travels via hyper space between his home and our area of the universe when it is necessary. The designer said the techniques used were much more sophisticated than anything dreamed of by current synthetic biologist crowd but in a couple million years they may get up to speed and understand how it was actually done. The designer said it is actually a lot more difficult than people think especially since this was a new technique and he had to invent the DNA/RNA/protein process from scratch but amazingly they had the right chemical properties. His comment was “Thank God for that” or else he doesn’t think he wouldn’t have been able to do it. It took him about 200,000 of our years just experimenting with amino acid combinations to get usable proteins. He said it will be easier for current scientists since they will have a template to work off. Adel, if you make a negative comment or exhibit a negative attitude then expect the essence of your negative comment to be dealt with in some way. I would not let any of my children make a comment such as yours without being sent to their room. I could think of hundreds of ways for you to have made a cordial comment inquiring what I think on the matter. But why did you choose the way you did which revealed a lot of things. (By the way I am quite clear on what I think and it is all over this blog.) But thank you any way for your comments. Your comments and Mark Frank’s comment and those by others here help us immensely. We really appreciate how easy you guys make our job convincing others about the logic and facts behind our position.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/complex-specified-information-you-be-the-judge/#comment-305339 This absurdity will continue as there is a near infinite supply of nonsense peddlers out there who ask the same stupid questions again and again. Aside: Seversky participated in the above thread but not in the discussion on how life was designed. Just to show how long he has been here.jerry
November 11, 2022
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Relatd: You’ve misrepresented ID. ID is the better explanation. But, ID cannot say when design was implemented, what the first form of life on Earth was, or whether or not humans are the culmination of the designers' selective breeding programme. But it's better?JVL
November 11, 2022
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SG at 411, You've misrepresented ID. ID is the better explanation.relatd
November 11, 2022
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JVL@410, you have far more patience than I. But please be careful. You don’t want to get trapped under one of KF’s flame engulfed falling strawmen. According to KF, a naturalistic origin is impossible because nobody has been able to provide a step-by-step process that takes us from the “primordial soup” to the modern cell. But when ID questioners ask for any details, speculations, hypotheses on the nature of the designer, the tools used, the mechanisms and processes used, when the designs were instantiated, whether there is constant tweaking, whether it was front-end loaded, etc, all we get is that these things are not part of ID.Sir Giles
November 11, 2022
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Kairosfocus: I have made no such ASSUMPTION. Well prove that. Discuss the possibilities of the first form of life on Earth. Or run away again. Your call. The text of your objection, constrained to be ASCII characters in English, shows the point and shows how this objection is self referentially incoherent. Stop arguing via analogies and metaphors. Let's talk actual science: what do you envision to be the first form of life on earth? For record I note that tightly constrianed swatches of valid operating points in an overall astronomically large configuration space are an example of fine tuning and that islands of function isolated in large seas of non function as illustrated and discussed in the OP are a useful metaphor. It depends on what you think the first form of life on Earth was like. Maybe you should address that point. There is zip, zilch, nein, nyet, Uun, nada, zero actual observation of an architecture of biological life other than the cell. When you can provide an observed case then we have a basis for science on the matter. Apart from this obvious requirement, all you have is speculation dressed up in a lab coat. Are you sure about that? Really sure? Clearly you're ruling out viruses. And you're plunking for the cell. That's clear. If you are able to show a thermodynamically plausible path from a Darwin pond or the like that solves the synthesis problems leading up to a cell, kindly let us know ______ . Then, explain why such did not survive arrival of cells. Can you provide such a path for your view? Are we still subject to your double standard? You will note a distinction between life and biological life. Really? How so? Discussions of 'the soul' is not scientific. The roots of biological life are another matter and for cause and unless you can show actual observation otherwise, we can freely point to the cell, with metabolism, encapsulation and smart gating [homeostasis in an uphill thermodynamic system], with a built in von Neumann kinematic self replicator. Research is suggesting some possible answers for these questions. Have you got anything? Anything at all? With your better explanation? We cannot say when such began in absolute, we do not know what the rest of the observed cosmos holds. However, for discussion we can take up the usually suggested range for cell based life on our planet and solar system, scattering of spores across the system having a high astrophysical probability. Okay, so you're sticking with the cell being first life. Noted. And, on how, it is logical on the nature of FSCO/I to infer design by designers more advanced than Venter et al. As has been stated ever so many times but sidestepped in haste to set up and knock over strawmen. Not necessarily IF, in fact, life was much, much more simple than a cell at first. Biological, cell based life is not the root, it is a technology. Which does have observational backing, cf Venter et al, as has been noted for years and rhetorically side stepped the better to set up and knock over strawmen. Oh dear, this is just weird. You have no idea what the first form of life on earth was, that is clear. But now you're just waxing weird. Look, what does the design inference say about the first viable life form on earth? Can you say anything about this? With your 'better' explanation? Did you pause to wonder why I spoke to Gibbs free energy, thermodynamics and temperature? Does it register that temperature is an index of average random kinetic energy per degree of freedom for microparticles, and this extends to say Brownian Motion? Your attempts at being 'sciencey' are noted. But they don't do anything. I know you're not a scientist but you could at least stop pretending you understand how it works. Please. For a chemical or physical system to move uphill, somewhere else, something is heading downhill, a key issue in heat engines and much more. For life systems, that points to a good slice or two of metabolism. These issues have been discussed and looked at and PUBLISHED. You just choose to ignore all that. You come across as needing to refresh yourself on thermodynamics, with a special view to statistical thermodynamics. Some exposure to the informational school of thought will help. So will some attention to Lyell’s title. No, I do not need a reminder. Your vagueness points to the problem I have highlighted, you have no actual observation driven framework and are trying to dismiss glaring signs of design. You have no actual observation driven framework of life being (not only created) but tweaked and modified over billions of year. But your double standard makes it okay to claim your explanation is 'better' when it's actually vacuous. You can't even guess at what the first life on earth was life in your worldview. You have NO explanation at all. You tell me please, I have suggested that for bio life on earth the answer is the source of the cell, and have pointed to “a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter” literally for years, as prime suspect. Yes, I get that you think life started with cells. We both know that you are trying to dodge admitting, an island of complex function. Because, for life on earth, it doesn't exist. Whatever the first life on earth was all its descendants inhabit the same area of functionality. Clearly. The incredible similarity of their basic chemistry and storage shows that. Even ID doesn't support completely random searches through some vast configuration space. You made that up and NO ONE actually believes that's how it works or worked. There is no good, actual observation based reason to infer that the implications of specific configuration function can be set aside. Give us your 'actual observation based reason' to suppose the existence of a designer(s) who has/have spent billions of years tweaking the development of life on earth in an ongoing selected breeding programme. Please. What is the actual, observation of biol life apart from cells? That FSCO/I per trillions of cases, is a reliable sign of design, and that the cell is chock full of it starting with codes and algorithms in protein synthesis. Oh, right, you are not up-to-date with the latest research. Got that. How about viruses? Are they alive? Yes or no? What is being snuck in the back door without adequate observational base is that cell based life spontaneously assembled in the teeth of uphill energy issues, and that the functional information for body plans has come about by survival filtered increments of lucky noise. No one is claiming that. Except you. No one. Again, a squid ink, toxic, distractive cloud. You really cannot even address the possibility that humans are just a step along some great plan that the designer(s) is implementing in their great selective breeding programme. Too funny. Why can't you address that possibility?JVL
November 11, 2022
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VL/400 excellent post......chuckdarwin
November 11, 2022
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KF: SG, as outrageous a strawman fallacy as I have ever seen at UD.
1) I don’t think those words mean what you think they mean. 2) I think the word you are looking for is sarcasm. 3) Of what value is there to numbering your individual comments? 4) Do you feel that the numbers give your responses more authority? 5) inquiring minds want to know.
That you resort to dismissal rather than addressing substance tells us you have no answer but a sneer. KF
6) Again, I think you are using the wrong word. 7) I think “cringe” is a more appropriate word than “sneer”.Sir Giles
November 11, 2022
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we deal with those who flout self evident first duties of reason
No, you are just dealing with people who are yanking your chain. Nothing more. No need to bring out Cicero for the 1000th time. Everybody laughs when you do. (And I endorse your comments on Cicero)
I completely agree.
You just agreed with nonsense.jerry
November 11, 2022
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JVL@404. I completely agree.Sir Giles
November 11, 2022
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SG, as outrageous a strawman fallacy as I have ever seen at UD. That you resort to dismissal rather than addressing substance tells us you have no answer but a sneer. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Kairosfocus: Science is about asking questions. Why and when and how questions. When you declare that certain questions are off limits then you are advocating a 'science stopper' stance. I think you should reconsider your reluctance to consider aspects of the selected breeding programme that ID promotes.JVL
November 11, 2022
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JVL, further on points, i/l/o the above including to Q: >>Perhaps you should be assiduous in avoiding stating the obvious then.>> 1: As stated by a champion of selective hyperskepticism and denial of manifest or well warranted truths and facts. Colour me surprised -- NOT. >>The ‘sigh’ means: we’ve been over this many times.>> 2: In a context of dealing with crooked yardstick thinking, selective hyperskepticism and doubling down, as will see just below. >>But your argument (about random searches and ‘islands of function’) assumes that there were no, much simpler antecedents.>> 3: Strawman no 1, I have made no such ASSUMPTION. I have pointed out WHY complex, specific configuration based function is critically dependent on appropriate organisation, as opposed to how clumping and scattering at random will have astronomically more possible configurations. 4: The text of your objection, constrained to be ASCII characters in English, shows the point and shows how this objection is self referentially incoherent. 5: Of course, an example of selectively hyperskeptical refusal to acknowledge the well warranted or even self evident.. 6: For record I note that tightly constrianed swatches of valid operating points in an overall astronomically large configuration space are an example of fine tuning and that islands of function isolated in large seas of non function as illustrated and discussed in the OP are a useful metaphor. 7: There is zip, zilch, nein, nyet, Uun, nada, zero actual observation of an architecture of biological life other than the cell. When you can provide an observed case then we have a basis for science on the matter. Apart from this obvious requirement, all you have is speculation dressed up in a lab coat. 8: If you are able to show a thermodynamically plausible path from a Darwin pond or the like that solves the synthesis problems leading up to a cell, kindly let us know ______ . Then, explain why such did not survive arrival of cells. >> If you can’t say at what state life began can you be said to have a better explanation?>> 9: You will note a distinction between life and biological life. Ever since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, it has been plausible that the self moved soul is the oldest of all things, indeed is the category of necessary being and root of reality. That boring ontological, logic of being and possible worlds stuff. 10: So, life began is not a valid assumption, that which begins is necessarily contingent. 11: The roots of biological life are another matter and for cause and unless you can show actual observation otherwise, we can freely point to the cell, with metabolism, encapsulation and smart gating [homeostasis in an uphill thermodynamic system], with a built in von Neumann kinematic self replicator. 13: We cannot say when such began in absolute, we do not know what the rest of the observed cosmos holds. However, for discussion we can take up the usually suggested range for cell based life on our planet and solar system, scattering of spores across the system having a high astrophysical probability. 14: And, on how, it is logical on the nature of FSCO/I to infer design by designers more advanced than Venter et al. As has been stated ever so many times but sidestepped in haste to set up and knock over strawmen. 15: Where it seems obvious to put up that if the molecules come about by molecular nanotech, that likely extends to the original labs. Take Venter's equipment and advance it several generations. >>What is the root of your tree then?>> 16: Biological, cell based life is not the root, it is a technology. Which does have observational backing, cf Venter et al, as has been noted for years and rhetorically side stepped the better to set up and knock over strawmen. 17: I have already pointed to the root of reality as an ontological issue and to origin of the cosmos as a key point also. >>Oh, I forget, there’s a double standard.>> 18: Failed turnabout projection, also another sign of confession by projection to the despised other, a mark of cognitive dissonance. >>So, you think chemical reactions are somewhat random? Are they directed then?>> 19: Did you pause to wonder why I spoke to Gibbs free energy, thermodynamics and temperature? Does it register that temperature is an index of average random kinetic energy per degree of freedom for microparticles, and this extends to say Brownian Motion? 20: Molecular randomness as briefly outlined is at the heart of statistical thermodynamics, which undergirds Chemistry. >>It has been characterised as “the river that flows uphill”. There is even a book with that title.>> 20: For a chemical or physical system to move uphill, somewhere else, something is heading downhill, a key issue in heat engines and much more. For life systems, that points to a good slice or two of metabolism. >>Lots of verbiage, does that mean you can or cannot do historical science?>> 21: You come across as needing to refresh yourself on thermodynamics, with a special view to statistical thermodynamics. Some exposure to the informational school of thought will help. So will some attention to Lyell's title. >>The answer is: life starts in an area of function.>> 22: Your vagueness points to the problem I have highlighted, you have no actual observation driven framework and are trying to dismiss glaring signs of design. >> But you can’t admit that that is the case. How could life NOT start in an area of function?>> 23: You tell me please, I have suggested that for bio life on earth the answer is the source of the cell, and have pointed to "a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter" literally for years, as prime suspect. 24: For life simplicitas, I have pointed to ontological issues that go far beyond biology. >>What? The first life on Earth, whatever form it was, had to be in an area of function. Clearly.>> 25: We both know that you are trying to dodge admitting, an island of complex function. One that for the cell involves a metabolic automaton with encapsulation, smart gating and a built in von Neumann self replicator. Until you provide observation of non cell based bio life antecedent to cells, you are imposing speculations. >>Talk about assumptions! Your islands of function hypothesis is an assumption>> 26: it is a readily observed fact and pattern, including with Weasel, cf 185 above. >> as far as biological systems go.>> 27: There is no good, actual observation based reason to infer that the implications of specific configuration function can be set aside. >>What origin? What did it look like?>> 28: You know that for years I have suggested, look to a lab some generations beyond Venter, working to synthesise a cell. >>One designer, many designers, whatever. You decide.>> 29: I have no need to decide for origin of cells on Earth. >>Only because of your assumptions,>> 30: Strawman again, you try to use "assumptions" to blunt inference to the best observationally anchored explanation, the better to slip in something without observational support as default. >> one being that common descent is false.>> 31: What is the actual, observation of biol life apart from cells? That FSCO/I per trillions of cases, is a reliable sign of design, and that the cell is chock full of it starting with codes and algorithms in protein synthesis. 32: What is being snuck in the back door without adequate observational base is that cell based life spontaneously assembled in the teeth of uphill energy issues, and that the functional information for body plans has come about by survival filtered increments of lucky noise. >>Well, why don’t you spell out your model for the origin and the development of life on Earth.>> 33: Outlined for years and again above, you just ignored it to set up another strawman. >>You claim to have a better explanation so let’s hear it. Yes?>> 34: yes, FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, so look to design methods some generations beyond Venter et al. >>Well, let’s hear your explanation of the origin and purpose of viruses and bacteria. You can pick one if you like . . . malaria is good. Start with malaria.>> 35: Squid ink, distractive, toxic cloud. No need to answer. >>Also, please explain how you know if humans were/are the point of the giant selective ID breeding programme that you clearly believe in.>> 36: Again, a squid ink, toxic, distractive cloud. 37: The failure to deal with 185 above, showing how fine tuning comes up with Weasel, speaks. KF KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Sir Giles: Well, that settles it. You numbered your comments so you must be correct. And he didn't have to traipse, step-wise, into an infinite past. Whew.JVL
November 11, 2022
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KF@389. Well, that settles it. You numbered your comments so you must be correct.Sir Giles
November 11, 2022
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KF writes, "VL, the issue of the inference to design remains despite its fairly obvious warrant, because of the increasingly desperate objections and distractions" Perhaps there would be fewer "desperate objections" if you and the ID movement in general showed more interest in other questions about design: your reluctance to go further seems to imply that you are really more interested in philosophical and theological issues than you are in pursuing any advances in science. As I quoted in an article by Barr at FirstThings recently,
”It is time to take stock: What has the intelligent design movement achieved? As science, nothing. The goal of science is to increase our understanding of the natural world, and there is not a single phenomenon that we understand better today or are likely to understand better in the future through the efforts of ID theorists. If we are to look for ID achievements, then, it must be in the realm of natural theology. And there, I think, the movement must be judged not only a failure, but a debacle.” Very few religious skeptics have been made more open to religious belief because of ID arguments, Barr adds. "These arguments not only have failed to persuade, they have done positive harm by convincing many people that the concept of an intelligent designer is bound up with a rejection of mainstream science.”
Viola Lee
November 11, 2022
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Kairosfocus: Trying to debate nature and identity of designers to those who refuse to acknowledge reliable, well tested signs of design is simply to go along with a distraction. This is just weird. People will spend hours, days, weeks, months, years, life times debating the nature and motivations of God but you can't talk about a possible (possible mind you) aspect of the selected breeding programme ID proposes. It's not necessarily a theological topic (if the designer(s) are uber-aliens monitoring Earth at a great distance). Do you have a problem accepting that humans may just be a transitional species? What argues against that? JVL, on the attempt to pull to an onward question, kindly note the just above to VL Why will you not even consider a possible aspect of the ID-proposed selective breeding programme of the designer(s)?JVL
November 11, 2022
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JVL, on the attempt to pull to an onward question, kindly note the just above to VL. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Jerry, in fact, much of the frustration in discussing matters of design is because we deal with those who flout self evident first duties of reason, which are also the framework of first law from which lawful government springs. Itself an issue in a day of manifestly ever increasing lawlessness and abuses. If the first duties were in order, the design issue would be readily resolved. Sadly, that breakdown and increasing perversity of lawlessness is a harbinger of a very hard time ahead for our civilisation and the wider world. With the USA leading the lemming race over the cliff. KF PS, in case there is a need for reminder, the Ciceronian first duties:
1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.
Where, that etc is the royal, accordion-expandable framework such as we can see in the Common Law starting with Alfred's Book of Dooms and Magna Carta etc down to Blackstone and more.kairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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VL, the issue of the inference to design remains despite its fairly obvious warrant, because of the increasingly desperate objections and distractions. And onward matters are much as SB pointed out years ago: first, establish arson, before hunting for an arsonist. All of which should have been readily understood. Trying to debate nature and identity of designers to those who refuse to acknowledge reliable, well tested signs of design is simply to go along with a distraction. Besides, as I have repeatedly noted, the ontologically significant case for discussing a designer is the cosmological design case, about which -- by and large -- objectors over the years have had little cogent to say. And with Prince Caspian on the board, that is being underscored week by week. BTW, that ontological significance has been on the table not only since Thaxton et al in the 1980's but since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2360+ years ago. And given that the progenitor of modern cosmological design thought was the lifelong agnostic Sir Fred Hoyle, it gets even more interesting. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Jerry: I thought the design inference was obvious. It’s amazing you believe it hasn’t been addressed. Too bad you didn't read a few more of the preceding bits . . . I asked if it were possible that humans were NOT the goal of the designed selective breeding pattern that ID supposes. What if we are, in fact, just another transitional species? That's the further issue. Do you have an opinion on that topic?JVL
November 11, 2022
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Kairosfocus: Merited correction is not “condescension,” which is here exposed as the fallacy of subtly poisoning the well from the outset. Perhaps you should be assiduous in avoiding stating the obvious then. It would seem, however that the “Sigh” implies confession by your projection to the despised other, cf. the Dawkins quadrilemma in the OP. The 'sigh' means: we've been over this many times. I do not need to answer this, I simply point to the only actually observed architecture of biological life and request an observationally anchored accounting of its origin. But your argument (about random searches and 'islands of function') assumes that there were no, much simpler antecedents. If you can't say at what state life began can you be said to have a better explanation? The rhetoric of poisoning the well, distraction and evasion tells us, there is still no answer, there is no root for the darwinist tree of life so the tree is cut off from its root. What is the root of your tree then? Oh, I forget, there's a double standard. There is a lot of thermodynamic randomness involved in chemistry, start with entropy viewed through Gibbs free energy or even just what temperature is an index of. So, you think chemical reactions are somewhat random? Are they directed then? In the primary sense though, chemistry has no foresight and naturally favours the thermodynamically downhill. The complex chemistry of cell based life is decidedly uphill, just start from how one goes from racemic forms to homochirality and linked key lock fitting chemistry. It has been characterised as "the river that flows uphill". There is even a book with that title. What is actually observed and makes sense is the centrality of homeostasis, manifested in metabolic automata with encapsulation and smart gating with built in von Neumann kinematic self replicator facilities, something that is manifestly best explained on careful knowing synthesis and assembly by deeply knowledgeable intelligently directed configuration. Lots of verbiage, does that mean you can or cannot do historical science? The unanswered problem is how to get there by blind watchmaker means rooted in actual observed capability. The answer is: life starts in an area of function. But you can't admit that that is the case. How could life NOT start in an area of function? Continent of function hyp, assumed as if it were a fact by side stepping the issue of fine tuning, What? The first life on Earth, whatever form it was, had to be in an area of function. Clearly. Common design with adaptation and extension to relevant niches makes better sense and is consistent with the fine tuning/ island of function pattern that naturally emerges from requisites of complex configuration based function. Talk about assumptions! Your islands of function hypothesis is an assumption as far as biological systems go. Coming up from the origin, I suggest the main body plans, starting with the cell and going through top level taxa are pivotal. What origin? What did it look like? Neither Thaxton et al nor me have ever asserted that on body plan patterns etc we can infer a single design-ER of life forms. This is a strawman caricature. One designer, many designers, whatever. You decide. What can be seen is, evidence of design, intelligently directed configuration, a process. Only because of your assumptions, one being that common descent is false. You know full well this is not the design inference on signs or theory, but such is not likely to be recognised by many, behind all the smoke from burning strawmen. Well, why don't you spell out your model for the origin and the development of life on Earth. You claim to have a better explanation so let's hear it. Yes? Compounding misrepresentation by attempts to emotively appeal to the failed problem of evils. Well, let's hear your explanation of the origin and purpose of viruses and bacteria. You can pick one if you like . . . malaria is good. Start with malaria. Also, please explain how you know if humans were/are the point of the giant selective ID breeding programme that you clearly believe in.JVL
November 11, 2022
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what further issues follow
Kf has been all over the universe in other areas. Almost two years ago over a thousand comments, mostly non-senical, were generated on laws. He has certainly held forth in lots of areas. So what are these further issues?
why a design inference has a basis is addressed
Could have fooled me. I thought the design inference was obvious. It’s amazing you believe it hasn’t been addressed.jerry
November 11, 2022
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