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L&FP42: is knowledge warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief?

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It’s time to start delivering on a promise to address “warrant, knowledge, logic and first duties of reason as a cluster,” even at risk of being thought pedantic. Our civilisation is going through a crisis of confidence, down to the roots. If it is to be restored, that is where we have to start, and in the face of rampant hyperskepticism, relativism, subjectivism, emotivism, outright nihilism and irrationality, we need to have confidence regarding knowledge.

Doing my penance, I suppose: these are key issues and so here I stand, in good conscience, I can do no other, God help me.

For a start, from the days of Plato, knowledge has classically been defined as “justified, true belief.” However, in 1963, the late Mr Gettier put the cat in among the pigeons, with Gettier counter-examples; which have since been multiplied. In effect, there are circumstances (and yes, sometimes seemingly contrived, but these are instructive thought exercises) in which someone or a circle may be justified to hold a belief but on taking a wider view such cannot reasonably be held to be a case of knowledge.

As a typical thought exercise, consider a circle of soldiers and sailors on some remote Pacific island, who are eagerly awaiting a tape of a championship match sent out by the usual morale units. They get it, play it and rejoice that team A has won over team B (and the few who thought otherwise have to cough up on their bets to the contrary). Unbeknownst to them, through clerical error, it was last year’s match, which had the same A vs B match-up and more or less the same outcome. They are justified — have a right — to believe, what they believe is so, but somehow the two fail to connect leading to accidental, not reliable arrival at truth.

Knowledge must be built of sterner stuff.

Ever since, epistemology as a discipline, has struggled to rebuild a solid consensus on what knowledge is.

Plantinga weighed in with a multi-volume study, championing warrant, which(as we just noted) is at first defined by bill of requisites. That is, we start with what it must do. So, warrant — this builds on the dictionary/legal/commercial sense of a reliable guarantee of performance “as advertised” — will be whatever reliably converts beliefs we have a right to into knowledge.

The challenge being, to fill in the blank, “Warrant is: __________ .”

Plantinga then summarises, in his third volume:

The question is as old as Plato’s Theaetetus: what is it that distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief? What further quality or quantity must a true belief have, if it is to constitute knowledge? This is one of the main questions of epistemology. (No doubt that is why it is called ‘theory of knowledge’.) Along with nearly all subsequent thinkers, Plato takes it for granted that knowledge is at least true belief: you know a proposition p only if you believe it, and only if it is true. [–> I would soften to credibly, true as we often use knowledge in that softer, defeat-able sense cf Science] But Plato goes on to point out that true belief, while necessary for knowledge, is clearly not sufficient: it is entirely possible to believe something that is true without knowing it . . .

[Skipping over internalism vs externalism, Gettier, blue vs grue or bleen etc etc] Suppose we use the term ‘warrant’ to denote that further quality or quantity (perhaps it comes in degrees), whatever precisely it may be, enough of which distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief. Then our question (the subject of W[arrant and] P[roper] F[unction]): what is warrant?

My suggestion (WPF, chapters 1 and 2) begins with the idea that a belief has warrant only if it is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, subject to no disorder or dysfunction—construed as including absence of impedance as well as pathology. The notion of proper function is fundamental to our central ways of thinking about knowledge. But that notion is inextricably bound with another: that of a design plan.37

Human beings and their organs are so constructed that there is a way they should work, a way they are supposed to work, a way they work when they work right; this is the way they work when there is no malfunction . . . We needn’t initially take the notions of design plan and way in which a thing is supposed to work to entail conscious design or purpose [–> design, often is naturally evident, e.g. eyes are to see and ears to hear, both, reasonably accurately] . . .

Accordingly, the first element in our conception of warrant (so I say) is that a belief has warrant for someone only if her faculties are functioning properly, are subject to no dysfunction, in producing that belief.39 But that’s not enough.

Many systems of your body, obviously, are designed to work in a certain kind of environment . . . . this is still not enough. It is clearly possible that a belief be produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly in an environment for which they were designed, but nonetheless lack warrant; the above two conditions are not sufficient. We think that the purpose or function of our belief-producing faculties is to furnish us with true (or verisimilitudinous) belief. As we saw above in connection with the F&M complaint [= Freud and Marx], however, it is clearly possible that the purpose or function of some belief-producing faculties or mechanisms is the production of beliefs with some other virtue—perhaps that of enabling us to get along in this cold, cruel, threatening world, or of enabling us to survive a dangerous situation or a life-threatening disease.

So we must add that the belief in question is produced by cognitive faculties such that the purpose of those faculties is that of producing true belief.

More exactly, we must add that the portion of the design plan governing the production of the belief in question is aimed at the production of true belief (rather than survival, or psychological comfort, or the possibility of loyalty, or something else) . . . .

[W]hat must be added is that the design plan in question is a good one, one that is successfully aimed at truth, one such that there is a high (objective) probability that a belief produced according to that plan will be true (or nearly true). Put in a nutshell, then, a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth. We must add, furthermore, that when a belief meets these conditions and does enjoy warrant, the degree of warrant it enjoys depends on the strength of the belief, the firmness with which S holds it. This is intended as an account of the central core of our concept of warrant; there is a penumbral area surrounding the central core where there are many analogical extensions of that central core; and beyond the penumbral area, still another belt of vagueness and imprecision, a host of possible cases and circumstances where there is really no answer to the question whether a given case is or isn’t a case of warrant.41 [Warranted Christian Belief (NY/Oxford: OUP, 2000), pp 153 ff. See onward, Warrant, the Current Debate and Warrant and Proper Function; also, by Plantinga.]

So, we may profitably distinguish [a] Plantinga’s specification (bill of requisites) for warrant and [b] his theory of warrant. The latter, being (for the hard core):

a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth.

Obviously, warrant comes in degrees, which is just what we need to have. Certain things are known to utterly unchangeable certainty, others are to moral certainty, others for good reason are held to be reasonably reliable though not certain enough to trust when the stakes are high, other things are in doubt as to whether they are knowledge, some things outright fail any responsible test.

That’s why I have taken up and commend a modified form, recognising that what we think is credibly, reliably true today may oftentimes be corrected for cause tomorrow. (Back in High School Chemistry class, I used to imagine a courier arriving at the door to deliver the latest updates to our teacher.)

Yes, I accept that many knowledge claims are defeat-able, so open-ended and provisional.

Indeed, that is part of what distinguishes the prudence and fair-mindedness of sober knowledge claims hard won and held or even stoutly defended in the face of uncertainty and challenge from the false certitude of blind ideologies. Especially, where deductive logical schemes can have no stronger warrant than their underlying axioms and assumptions and where inductive warrant provides support, not utterly certain, incorrigible, absolute demonstration.

That said, we must recognise that some few things are self-evident, e.g.:

While self-evident truths cannot amount to enough to build a worldview, they can provide plumb line tests relevant to the reliability of warrant for what we accept as knowledge:

Such, of course, bring to the fore Ciceronian first duties of reason:

Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks, C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . “Law (say [“many learned men”]) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

We may readily expand such first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice. Where, it may readily be seen that the would-be objector invariably appeals to the said duties. Does s/he object, false, or doubtfully so, or errors of reason, or failure to warrant, or unfairness or the like, alike, s/he appeals to the very same duties, collapsing in self-referentiality. So, instead, let us acknowledge that these are inescapable, true, self-evident.

It may help, too to bring out first principles of right reason, such as:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Expanding as a first list:

Such enable us to better use our senses and faculties to build knowledge. END

U/D May 16, regarding the Overton window, first, just an outline:

Next, as applied:

Backgrounder, on the political spectrum:

Comments
Jerry, the grinding attrition is complete. More elegant approaches may now move forward freely because of that hard won ground. KF kairosfocus
MNY, no, warrant is not circular, and warrant is needed as we are manifestly error-prone but duty-bound towards truth and right reason. KF kairosfocus
KF I think I fairly demonstrated circular logic in your conception of objectivity. You could say your definition is just conversational and intuitive, but you also emphasize logic, so then that option is not open to you. You generally present some common sensical reasonability. But you make an error in disregarding the categorical distinction between subjective and objective. And this is a very serious error, because it is easily shown that most immorality is based on rejection of subjectivity. With materialism, and then the political application of materialism, socialism, largescale immorality because of a complete failure to validate subjectivity intellectually. mohammadnursyamsu
It is by these that we can prove at all, or hold confidence in adequacy of support for an inductive argument.
Short, clear to the point and well said. jerry
MNY A simple logical error may be a mistake or ignorance. Dishonesty through using fallacies to manipulate is something else. Self-evident first principles and duties of reason are not circular, they are antecedent to, and inescapably authoritative as well as through and through pervasive in reasoning. It is by these that we can prove at all, or hold confidence in adequacy of support for an inductive argument. KF kairosfocus
I just do the discrete logical definitions. Being some kind of serial killer, can be in perfect accordance with the creationist conceptual scheme. It is just basic logic, not moral. Except logical errors, those are immoral. And you make some logic error of circular logic. For other morality some bona fide religion is highly advised. mohammadnursyamsu
In each mind there must be at least 2 boxes, one for subjective, and one for objective. As also the physical brain has 2 main halves.
A person can't be 100% objective( because only God is objective) but can reach(the saints) the highest percents close to 100%.. Actually in christianity saints give the "steering wheel" to God and in that way they became almost 100% objective. All human beings are doomed to be subjective without a special God intervention. Sandy
MNY, human subjectivity means, finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often ill-willed. It requires a contrast with subjectivity in general, which we can take to mean being self-aware, conscious, free enough to reason and to be responsible. We are subjects, but subjects with certain limitations and risks. For example, if I am appeared to redly and roundly under certain conditions, I may have good reason to hold it objectively so that a red ball is in front of me. But just the other day by my favourite local hardware shop, a closer look indicated that at first glance I missed the metal part of a pin, because of a dull background and too-low lighting; cf. Gettier et al. However, it was incorrigibly the case that I was appeared to redly and roundly. So, the issue is not that subjectivity is tainted but that we as subjects are fallible, finite and prone to certain flaws beyond mere error. In that context, it is valuable to recognise a need for warrant to increase the reliability of beliefs to that of credible truth. Where, Plantinga's considerations are highly relevant; here, a bit of enhanced lighting and convergence of senses . . . touch, made a key difference. We have already duly noted the different case of other classes of subject and the non-rationality of computational substrates. KF kairosfocus
Then subjectivity would mean insufficient warrant to establish as knowledge. So then is sufficiency a matter of subjective opinion? Sufficiency could neither be subjective nor objective, because it is an error of circular logic to define a term with itself. It is an error of logic to define objectivity with objectivity. While I use a categorical distinction between objectivity and subjectivity. That objectivity has the logic of copying, and subjectivity has the logic of choice. So then it is an error when someone is forced to say a painting is beautiful, and it is an error when a fact is not a 1 to 1 corresponding copy of what the fact is about. As fully supported by ordinary common discourse. You are being overly efficient in trying to make it all come down to one unified knowledge. You require the 2 categories of creator and creation, subjective and objective, at minimum. In each mind there must be at least 2 boxes, one for subjective, and one for objective. As also the physical brain has 2 main halves. mohammadnursyamsu
MNY, objective is being used to imply sufficient warrant to establish as at least weak form knowledge. That is, there is sufficient support for a claim, observation, perception, evaluation, judgement etc -- those are yardstick words -- that it is not credibly unduly subject to the error-potential of any given finite, fallible, morally struggling, sometimes ill willed individual thus readily dismissible. The individual may accurately perceive, evaluate, judge, estimate, calculate or state etc a given actual state of affairs, but our fallibility is such that we need an objective standard. KF PS: By contrast, God as necessary, inherently good, utterly wise and maximally great being, is not finite, fallible or ill willed etc. This is the context of omniscience etc. However, if so many struggle with inescapable, pervasive, self-evident first principles and duties of reason, then they will struggle mightily with the logic of the greatest possible being. kairosfocus
Paige, regrettably but necessarily (for cause), is no longer with us. kairosfocus
Paige, I was making a Monty Python reference, the song in Life of Brian. :) Karen McMannus
WJM, seriously. KF kairosfocus
The rules for useful debate: 1. Investigate the logic used in ordinary practical common discourse 2. define terms according to the logic used in ordinary common discourse 3. If you define a term differently than is used in ordinary common discourse, then explain the difference up front 4. Defining a term with several different definitions should be avoided, and if it is done it should be made explicit what the several meanings are. 5. Logical errors, contradictions in definitions, or between definitions, should be pointed out, and lead to rejection of the conceptual scheme KF is just applying the word objective with several different meanings. And is continuously trading between the different meanings in application, nevery really making a definite definition. Obviously he neglects subjectivity. Also KF doesn't much make a connection to ordinary common discourse. He makes a connection to the works of popular philosophers. mohammadnursyamsu
Paige, you know, game over. KF kairosfocus
KF
PS: For most of history, most people have implicitly believed in true, knowable moral truth.
True. How has that worked out? [FN1: Oh, about as one could expect i/l/o our moral hazard of being finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed. That is, it took heart-softening by the gospel's integral ethics to change underlying thoughts and habits of the heart. As was so often pointed out but dismissed without serious reflection, the printing revolution, economic growth and the reformation-triggered ferment that moved the public to a point where they had a significantly informed voice helped to open up political space beyond the ages-long contention between lawless and hoped for lawful oligarchy. In that context, by 1689 running to 1789, we had a shift in politics expressed in natural law anchored bills of rights, and in recognition of the creation in God's image anchored common humanity thus key rights we share. We had stabilising cultural-moral buttresses for democratisation. Unsurprisingly the slave trade and slave system were among the first targets for reform, a second time around. The problem we face today, is that the buttresses are being undermined, with serious implications. FN2: Do you see the problem of entangling debates by dragging in just about every loaded objection that can be, then demanding that only very brief comments be made or they will be derided and dismissed? The OP is on knowledge and warrant, and only notes in passing that warrant has ability to support that there can be knowledge of duty in general, i.e. moral truth. That is supported by an observation regarding self-evidence. Namely, inescapability of the authority of first principles and duties. Indeed, this objection, which tries to imply systematic injustice, appeals to same but the force of that is of course studiously ignored. Instead, every contentious loaded issue is dragged in to try to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise, frustrating reasonable discussion of what would foster genuine progress. Which should serve to remind on why a base for stabilised democratisation and respect for rights had to be built up first before issues that indict corrupt elites could begin to be seriously discussed and reformed. KF] If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the key role Christians, acting out of scriptural teaching, played in the abolition of the slave trade and slavery, that loaded imbalance speaks telling volumes. I fully acknowledge that. But you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that it was also Christians, acting out scriptural teachings, the fought against the abolition of slavery. [FN3: I again add a comment regarding a cross complaint rooted in failure to engage positively with earlier comments and discussions that show the issue of reformation and heart softening of a civilisation and its power structures. For record, a direct link is here and a link on the mixed blessing heritage of Christendom is here. KF]
Paige, you owe an apology. Not only for vile personalities
I will certainly apologize if I have falsely tarnished someone's personality. Can you provide the context under which I did this? <blockquote but for trying to drag the thread into the sewer. That has to be deliberate and speaks volumes. KF Again, if you could please show where I dragged this thread into the sewer, I will certainly apologize if I truly dragged it into the sewer. [FN4: You cannot not know what you did and why it finally so far departed from responsible discussion that on refusal to deal with it frankly, serious action was taken. The pretence of innocence and turnabout are duly dismissed. KF] paige
The troll wants back. And it is all about Kf. The objective has always been to provoke Kf and then when he responds to invoke the response as the new provocation that must be responded to. Then Kf responds to the new fake provocation. And we go around in circles. It's the ouroboros. It's time to move on. How, by not responding to the faux offenses that people give. jerry
KM
When it starts to get frustrating, just think about the bright side of your life. ?
Yes. We are all individuals. paige
KF @1827 said:
Let us note what has stirred all of this animus: ... That such excites the attitudes on display, speaks volumes.
Your argument isn't what is causing the "excited animus," KF. I think it's more about what appears to be the condescending and disrespectful manner in which you attempt to make it. William J Murray
F/N: Let us note what has stirred all of this animus:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable . . . first duties of reason: "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,
1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.
Likewise, we observe again, that objectors to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction,while also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are first principles of rational, responsible, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
That such excites the attitudes on display, speaks volumes. KF kairosfocus
Paige, you owe an apology. Not only for vile personalities but for trying to drag the thread into the sewer. That has to be deliberate and speaks volumes. KF kairosfocus
Paige:
On a general note, it is my opinion (and just an opinion) that the danger in believing that there are objective moral truths is greater than believing that there aren’t. It is my experience that people who believe in objective moral truths tend to be less likely to question them than those who don’t believe in them.
Projection and insinuation. Are you sure it is just the other who is, well, ah, ooh, judgemental? KF PS: For most of history, most people have implicitly believed in true, knowable moral truth. The reality is, we all are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often stubbornly ill willed. That is a moral hazard of being human. A key step to addressing that -- surprise -- is to straighten out moral thinking, from self-evident first principles on. PPS: If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the key role Christians, acting out of scriptural teaching, played in the abolition of the slave trade and slavery, that loaded imbalance speaks telling volumes. FYI, the very motto of the antislavery society comes out of one of the key works that broke the credibility of slavery, the NT Epistle to Philemon, requesting manumission of a runaway slave, Onesimus, who took refuge with Paul. This was penned while chained to a roman soldier on guard for any reason to put to death for fomenting rebellion. Penned a few miles from where the Spartacists had been executed. The reality is, sound civil rights reforms grew out of the printing revolution, the ferment surrounding the Reformation and growth of constitutional, lawful democratisation in the immediate context of Christian revivals. It is the loaded anti-Christian litany that betrays underlying attitude. kairosfocus
paige @1281, When it starts to get frustrating, just think about the bright side of your life. ;) Karen McMannus
Jerry: One does not choose to survive or not. Tell that to 50,000+- people who commit suicide in the USA every year. Many of them are irrational, to be sure. But many are rational people who choose death instead of living in physical pain. It's their preference. They are also innate basic needs. Needs are needs, and are not "duties" just because you say you. I very often put off my needs to further some goal. Preference again. Does that mean I'm shirking my "duty" to fulfill my needs? Hehe. Not hardly. Karen McMannus
Sandy, Me: You don’t know if I or anyone besides yourself has consciousness or not. You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself? You: You don’t know if I or anyone besides yourself don’t have consciousness. Correct. I am agnostic about that question. You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself? No. That I don't know if you are conscience or not is not a conclusion. It's an open question. I lack data to make such a conclusion. Karen McMannus
VB, I was envisioning the Monty Python skit where they tied handkerchiefs on their heads and screamed “My brain hurts”. Which is what I want to do whenever I try to decipher one of his obtuse OPs or comments. paige
Paige stop it I’m laughing to hard. FYI you know KF is a person of color and the handkerchief could be considered by some as a racial stereotype. I know you don’t mean it that way unfortunately our society s way too sensitive to remarks that mean no harm and I know thats not your intention Vivid vividbleau
VB
Now that’s funny you got a big laugh out of me.
Now I have an image of KF pontificating while wearing panties and a bra over his pants and shirt. And possibly a handkerchief tied over his head. Now his comments make a lot more sense. :) :) ;) paige
Jerry
Survival, freedom, flourishing are not preferences. They’re innate needs. One cannot choose to have them or not to have them.
Then why is it against the law to attempt suicide? Of course they are preferences. Really Jerry, sometimes you say the most ridiculous and stupid things. paige
Paige “OK, we would all get very uncomfortable if we tried to put on our pants before our panties. ? But I think you understand what I mean.” Now that’s funny you got a big laugh out of me. Vivid vividbleau
Survival, freedom, flourishing are not preferences. They’re innate needs. One cannot choose to have them or not to have them. One does not choose to survive or not. People don’t go around saying I choose for myself and my family to be dead. It’s not a choice anyone makes. Similarly for freedom and flourishing. Theses are not choices. They are also innate basic needs.
Really? Did you live in all of human history?
No but I studied it. Until a little over 200 years ago most of humanity lived on the edge of starvation. As the famous quote said.
.life was nasty, brutish snd short
jerry
Jerry, are you suggesting that you don’t prefer survival, freedom and flourishing? I definitely do. Why can’t the things that you strongly prefer form the basis of your personal moral values?
For most of history nearly all of humanity was on the edge of surviving so the other needs such as freedom, flourishing and social interaction were secondary but always there .
Really? Did you live in all of human history? There have been plenty of examples of long enduring civilizations that were not on the edge of survival.
Actually some deeply held preferences can be immoral if they frustrate the basic needs of one self and of others. So you are wrong!
Did I say that deeply held preferences couldn’t be counterproductive to your survival? paige
Morality is just deeply held preferences that can’t be easily changed.
Nonsense. Survival is the most basic need for humans and for all species. What leads to survival can change due to geography and time (such as food availability and various skills) but not the final goal which is survival and safety of the family and community. It is innate and not a preference that changes. Freedom is another basic need that is innate and does not vary. It has been suppressed for most of history but was always there. People are willing to accept less of it for other needs such as safety and flourishing. Flourishing/prospering/doing well is also a basic need for humans. Everyone wants to improve and be important. It is built in. What leads to that can be very cultural specific but not the basic need to thrive and be important. It is innate and not a preference that changes. There are other needs that are innate in all humans such as a need for social interaction. Morality is what contributes to these basic needs. Immorality is what frustrates these basic needs. For most of history nearly all of humanity was on the edge of surviving so the other needs such as freedom, flourishing and social interaction were secondary but always there . As safety becomes less of an issue the other basic needs become more prominent. There are no preferences involved in choosing goals. What one does to achieve these needs can vary by person and place but may have very little flexibility. To some extent there can be preferences there but not necessarily deeply held. Actually some deeply held preferences can be immoral if they frustrate the basic needs of one self and of others. Morality is what achieves goals for yourself and to some extent others. Duties are a better description of what does this rather than preferences. So you are wrong! jerry
VB, I also have deeply held “preferences for how I dress in the morning. Underwear, bra, socks, pants then shirt, buttons fastened from top to bottom. If I try to do it in any other order, I get very uncomfortable. OK, we would all get very uncomfortable if we tried to put on our pants before our panties. :) But I think you understand what I mean. paige
Paige “No I don’t. Morality is just deeply held preferences that can’t be easily changed. To paraphrase Jerry, prove me wrong.” pref·er·ence /?pref(?)r?ns/ Learn to pronounce noun noun: preference; plural noun: preferences 1. a greater liking for one alternative over another or others. "he chose a clock in preference to a watch" Your own statement is the proof “you have deeply held preferences “and you call it something else other than what the thing is you yourself call it “deeply held preferences” !! Vivid vividbleau
VB
You keep conflating preferences with morality.
No I don’t. Morality is just deeply held preferences that can’t be easily changed. To paraphrase Jerry, prove me wrong. paige
VB
Slavery predates Christianity.
Agreed. But given that Christianity is only 2,000+ years old, you would think that they could have codified their opposition to it from the beginning. They didn’t. paige
VB
If you torture the Bible enough you can get it to say whatever you want. And it is a fact that many Christians justified slavery and used the Bible to justify it. It is also true that Christians were part of the tip of the spear to abolish it.
I’m not disagreeing with you. But would it have been abolished earlier if those supporting slavery didn’t use “absolute moral truths” from their Bible to support slavery? What about homosexuality? What has the church done to abolish the stigma against same sex attraction? What about the forcible removal of indigenous children from their parents to be raised by the church, thousands of children buried in unmarked graves? The church isn’t solely to blame, but they are the only institution to refuse to accept responsibility. paige
Paige “Exactly. But wasn’t that back when everyone believed the objective moral truths as dictated by the church?” Slavery predates Christianity. Vivid vividbleau
Paige “Exactly. But wasn’t that back when everyone believed the objective moral truths as dictated by the church?” If you torture the Bible enough you can get it to say whatever you want. And it is a fact that many Christians justified slavery and used the Bible to justify it. It is also true that Christians were part of the tip of the spear to abolish it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce Wilberforce was the leader to abolish slavery and an evangelical Christian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Middleton,_1st_Baron_Barham The list of Christians at the forefront of abolition is quite long Vivid vividbleau
Paige “It certainly makes it wrong for me.” No it does not make it wrong for you it makes it non preferable to. You keep conflating preferences with morality. A preference is neither moral or immoral . That I prefer vanilla and you prefer chocolate is just that. There is no moral component to a preference., there is no should. to a preference , no duty or obligation to a preference . To be sure you have strong preferences and weak preferences but that’s it. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Or the laws that made slavery legal.
Exactly. But wasn’t that back when everyone believed the objective moral truths as dictated by the church? paige
Paige “or a significant amount of influence, they can influence the government to make it legally wrong.” Yep like this legal law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws Or the laws that made slavery legal. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Sheesh you would almost think from reading this that all of the above was wrong or something? That people should not be doing these things.
I prefer not to kill, lie or jail people for their sexuality. I also prefer not to be killed, lied to or jailed for my sexuality.
Paige your preferences do not make them wrong…
It certainly makes it wrong for me.
nor for that matter millions of peoples preferences on these issues don’t make them wrong either.
It makes it wrong for millions of people. If there are enough people with the same preference and/or a significant amount of influence, they can influence the government to make it legally wrong. paige
Mohammadnursyamsu Your definitions are total nonsense
There is a painting of a camel out back . Sandy
Sandy, the definitions I use for subjectivity and objectivity, are in line with the logic used in ordinary common discourse, such as saying a painting is beautiful, or saying there is a camel out back, opinion and fact. Your definitions are total nonsense, you do not even try to be consistent with the logic used in common discourse. mohammadnursyamsu
Paige “This is fine for the ones that history has shown to be effective in maintaining a society, things like not killing, not lying, etc. But if we didn’t question our moral values, we would still be jailing or castrating homosexuals, not giving women the vote, tolerating duels, institutionalizing those with mental illness, etc.” Sheesh you would almost think from reading this that all of the above was wrong or something? That people should not be doing these things. Paige your preferences do not make them wrong nor for that matter millions of peoples preferences on these issues don’t make them wrong either. Vivid vividbleau
Mohammadnursyamsu Oh great, you mentioned emotions, subjective things. Greed, lust and hate. In movie morality, when there is a loving family, then you can use all violence to protect the family. You are just wrong, generally all the immorality is from people denying emotions, rejecting what is subjective. As like alcoholics, exchanging emotions, for a buzz, and then acting on the buzz, not the emotions. It is totally bleedingly obvious that materialism really only validates objectivity and fact. And any mention that materialists make of subjectivity, is nonsense. The materialist idea about emotions and subjectivity, is totally different from the creationist idea of it. It is totally bleedingly obvious that rejection of subjectivity is what causes personal and societal catastrophy. Especially with objective morality like social darwinism. But atheists have appropiated the word subjectivity, and mangled it, and now nobody wants subjectivity anymore, including the religious.
Maybe, before commenting is better to learn the basic meaning of some words like "objective" and "subjective" . Sandy
I know. But he owns the OP. What can we do?
Kf is not the source of nonsense. Lack of clarity, yes, quite often. Mainly due to too many concepts at a time and unusual language. The nonsense comes from others. Most opinions that people have are emotion based and not justified by evidence and logic. Here is what I told Kf
Two completely different bell curves describe your comments. The first is truth vs not truth with truth to the right. You are on the far right on this bell curve. The second bell curve is persuasive vs non persuasive with persuasive on the far right. You are on the far left of this curve. You resist this latter assessment so you continually provide unpersuasive comments.
Kf is anything but nonsense. He’s one of the most no nonsense persons I have ever come across. So it is nonsense to accuse him of that. That is an opinion without any justification. jerry
Oh great, you mentioned emotions, subjective things. Greed, lust and hate. In movie morality, when there is a loving family, then you can use all violence to protect the family. You are just wrong, generally all the immorality is from people denying emotions, rejecting what is subjective. As like alcoholics, exchanging emotions, for a buzz, and then acting on the buzz, not the emotions. It is totally bleedingly obvious that materialism really only validates objectivity and fact. And any mention that materialists make of subjectivity, is nonsense. The materialist idea about emotions and subjectivity, is totally different from the creationist idea of it. It is totally bleedingly obvious that rejection of subjectivity is what causes personal and societal catastrophy. Especially with objective morality like social darwinism. But atheists have appropiated the word subjectivity, and mangled it, and now nobody wants subjectivity anymore, including the religious. mohammadnursyamsu
Paige, it seems loaded projections about belief in God (and likely the "possible" reality of God) are yet another crooked yardstick at work. As responsible, rational, free creatures, it is we who are responsible to acknowledge the right, rights, duties, the chaotic destructive impact of wrongs etc. You will note, again, that the self-evidence of first duties traces to an observation about our rational behaviour: even to object, we find ourselves unable to avoid appealing to their legitimate, inescapable authority. That is, duties to truth, to right reason, to warrant [and wider prudence], to sound conscience [the voice you seem to object to], to neighbour [our equals sharing our common nature], so too to fairness and to justice etc. These duties show themselves to be pervasive in and governing of our rational behaviour. Yes, we may err or may willfully flout such, but all that reflects is our freedom, our fallibility and our moral struggle. Those do not change the readily observed fact -- even in your own objections -- that we show ourselves to be governed by these first duties. KF kairosfocus
On a general note, it is my opinion (and just an opinion) that the danger in believing that there are objective moral truths is greater than believing that there aren’t. It is my experience that people who believe in objective moral truths tend to be less likely to question them than those who don’t believe in them. This is fine for the ones that history has shown to be effective in maintaining a society, things like not killing, not lying, etc. But if we didn’t question our moral values, we would still be jailing or castrating homosexuals, not giving women the vote, tolerating duels, institutionalizing those with mental illness, etc. paige
VB
Or when someone else violates them.
We act as if there really is a universal moral law and the proof of that is our emotional response.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But the fact that our moral values change throughout our lives should be a huge indication that there may not be a universal moral law.
One can rationalize all they want about the non existence of a universal objective moral law, or duties, etc but ones emotions give the store away.
But KF and others rationalize in their attempts to prove universal moral law. All other things being equal, the most likely explanation is the most parsimonious one. I think that concluding that our morals are the result of instinct, early teaching, reinforcement, feedback, our ability to reason and predict consequences of our actions is more parsimonious than having to impose some ill-defined outer force that is responsible for them. It is nothing personal. For the most part, both beliefs result in the same thing. A system that is far from perfect and prone to variation over time and between cultures. paige
KF
Paige, no emotion — however moving — has warrant beyond its perceptions and duty-based expectations, etc.
I must have missed where I said that emotions have warrant for anything.
Emotions are part of the issue and as the very concepts, temptation, greed, lust, hate etc inform, have to managed i/l/o moral government. KF
Self-managed, not managed from on-high. I have my fair share of temptation, greed, lust and hate, but I use my teachings, experience, reinforcement, feedback and ability to reason and predict consequences of actions to keep them to a manageable level without having to draw on some ill-defined objective moral truth. paige
Paige “The big thing that separates our morals from other rules is that we have an emotional response when we violate them.” Or when someone else violates them. In many ways our emotions are a window to our soul and tell us what we really believe about ought, duties, obligations. We act as if there really is a universal moral law and the proof of that is our emotional response. One can rationalize all they want about the non existence of a universal objective moral law, or duties, etc but ones emotions give the store away. Vivid vividbleau
Jerry
This OP is 1240 comments long because a few commenters continually spout nonsense and people feel an obligation to treat their nonsense as serious.
I know. But he owns the OP. What can we do? :) paige
AndyClue
Are you new to this forum?
Relatively new. But based on the way some of the more frequent commenters here behave towards those who disagree with them, I probably won't stick it out too long. But I will keep trying, at least for a little while. paige
VB
Using the words “ new low, “ and “smear” just seems so judgmental as if he shouldn’t being saying those things especially if it makes him happy.
Yup. They are judgments based on my personal values. When we judge others, we can only do so based on our personal values or on legal standards. The only person knows what I should or should not do is me, based on my worldview. I can't know with any certainty what KF or others should do. paige
Paige, no emotion -- however moving -- has warrant beyond its perceptions and duty-based expectations, etc. Emotions are part of the issue and as the very concepts, temptation, greed, lust, hate etc inform, have to managed i/l/o moral government. KF kairosfocus
M
KF you are just using the materialist / atheist idea of subjectivity and emotions, in order to throw emotions and subjectivity out
I tend to agree with this. You can't underestimate the power of emotion. The big thing that separates our morals from other rules is that we have an emotional response when we violate them. Much like people with OCD when they do not perform their "ritual" movements. paige
This totally boring discussion. A position where emotions are generally disregarded as being wrong, or evil, has no chance of being right. Why even start to argue in favor of that? What would be the point of any morality without emotions? KF you are just using the materialist / atheist idea of subjectivity and emotions, in order to throw emotions and subjectivity out. In the proper and creationist understanding of emotions, emotions are spiritual, meaning they are inherently subjective, meaning they can only be identified with a chosen opinion. And with any choice, you can attach a normative to it. So when I say, Jack is a loving person, or, Jack is a coward, then one can morally challenge that, that I should not have said that. It can be challenged, because I chose the opinions. So you just have to fit subjectivity / emotions in somewhere in your conceptual scheme. Otherwise it is not even worth arguing about. mohammadnursyamsu
WJM In creationism the human imagination is in the creation category, not the creator category. Fantasy figures like leprechauns, or accurate representations of what is in the universe in the imagination, are all just creations. It is just as well a matter of fact what is in in someone's imagination, as what is in the universe proper. You fail to really make the categorical distinction between subjective and objective. On creationist terms, you are really only affirming objective things, and ommitting the subjective things. mohammadnursyamsu
I don’t need diagrams, references to ancient philosophers or a wall of text to make my case for all choices being preferential in nature
The Murray Bible, titled
A=A
followed by his sequel titled
2+2 = 4
Each is 500 pages long with 499 pages of each blank. Amazing writer. No wonder he’s so well published. But one question: why the 300,000+ words of gibberish you published here? When you are obviously so clear a thinker as the titles above indicate. Last question: when does your magnum opus “I Exist” come out? jerry
You see, KF, I don't need diagrams, references to ancient philosophers or a wall of text to make my case for all choices being preferential in nature, or the fact that all choices are about managing an overall, preferential balance between or including both direct and abstract enjoyments. I have made that argument, simple, easy to understand, in terms everyone can understand. IMO, once one sees it, it is startlingly obvious to the point of recognizing a valid tautology. All moralities can be boiled down to a simple, universal statement: we make preferential decisions to manage our direct and abstract enjoyments, seeking the most, or broadest, or deepest, or most comprehensive state of enjoyment, be that for the duration of our life here, and/or for some enjoyable afterlife, whether or not we see the afterlife as a final destination or some other continuation of our existence. This is true whether or not any specific moral system is universal and objective, because such a system is still, necessarily, inescapable about making preferential choices in service of direct and/or abstract enjoyments. William J Murray
It is so ubiquitous, irrefutable and obvious he considers it a trivial observation.
So all you have been advocating is 2 + 2 = 4 and nothing more.                 Wow!!!!! What amazing insight. And it took 300,000+ words to say that. You just set a new world record for verbosity and vacuity. You can add that to your record of achievements. Why not say all you meant was A=A at the very beginning. Since it’s an inescapable self evident truth. I have a question. Was one of those books you wrote 500 pages long and on the first page you wrote 2+2 = 4 and the remaining 499 pages blank except for the page number? jerry
KF, You can either deal with my perspective as I have written it and ask me questions about it and attempt to rebut what I actually say here, or continue imagining I'm talking about something else that you ore familiar with and using that as your straw man. Up to you, my argument stands unrefuted on its own points and merits. Note Jerry's response:
What every human being has done all their lives since the beginning of time. All of this is about the trivial and the obvious.
He agrees every human being has made preferential choices towards direct or abstract enjoyment all their lives since the beginning of time. It is so ubiquitous, irrefutable and obvious he considers it a trivial observation. Right up there with "I exist," "A=A," and "2+2=4." IOW, self-evidently true and inescapable. William J Murray
This OP is 1240 comments long because a few commenters continually spout nonsense and people feel an obligation to treat their nonsense as serious. Who are the fools? All of us? jerry
WJM, Epicureanism is not simple hedonism. KF kairosfocus
Note the key phrases I use: “managing enjoyments”
What every human being has done all their lives since the beginning of time. All of this is about the trivial and the obvious. PS: in what world do books, zoom meetings, children, Facebook, going to work and money take place. Does it include breathing? jerry
KF, I didn't say "Hedonism" because I didn't mean "Hedonism." Straw man. I also did not say, and explicitly said otherwise, that we always choose a continuous string of immediately enjoyable events; this is because we are capable of abstract thought, recognizing when choosing something "not enjoyable" in the direct now provides for preferable future or abstract enjoyment, such as going to work at a job you don't particularly enjoy so that you have the money to pay for all the things you do enjoy. Note the key phrases I use: "managing enjoyments" and "direct and abstract enjoyments." These are important concepts that cannot be described as mere "Hedonism." I mean, unless you're going to describe the pursuit of Heaven as an end a form of "Hedonism" because it is the preferable, more enjoyable "final" consequence to behavioral choices here. William J Murray
WJM, hedonism fails, failed over 2,000 years ago. Epicureanism likewise failed so badly by AD 50 that Paul at Areopagus divided the audience and addressed the Stoics, leaving the Epicureans to stew in their own juices. Happiness through fulfillment of one's built-in ends is not equal to a string of enjoyed experiences. Wha sweet nanny goat mouth run 'im belly. Hence, duties connected to ends to soundly use freedom and reason to do the right, in the end, the path of wisdom and virtue. KF kairosfocus
So, I'll tell you what the inescapable "First Duty" is of every possible sentient being in every possible world: enjoyment. From the moment a sentient being can think, they are managing their enjoyment of their existence. Free will is the capacity to intend a preference, even if one cannot actually make their intent occur physically. Preference is necessarily about what intended outcome one would enjoy (prefer) more than other options, either directly or some abstract sense. Morality is a system of behaviors that serve abstract enjoyments; such as, "getting to Heaven," which represents the maximally enjoyable final outcome for such behaviors. If moral behavior did not promise enjoyable outcomes, or did not produce an enjoyable abstract state, nobody would care. People do not either tell the truth or lie in accordance with a moral obligation to tell the truth per se; they tell the truth or lie in reference to either direct or abstract enjoyment. As soon as a choice to intend this or that is available, they always make that choice according to their actual, inescapable, self-evident "First" and only possible duty of any sort, existential or otherwise: enjoyment. They may pursue enjoyment well or badly, rationally or irrationally, sacrifice direct enjoyments for abstract (including future) enjoyment, but every decision is about managing enjoyments towards best enjoyable outcomes, as they see them. William J Murray
WJM, John C Wright makes far better overall sense than you are inclined to credit. KF kairosfocus
From KF's 1096:
I am trying to put across a subtle yet startling conclusion: that moral reasoning underpins all other forms of reasoning, and [is] logically prior to those forms. [–> recognises first duties and how they govern reason] We are moral and moralizing beings whether we know it or not, acknowledge it or not. Even to debate morality entails a moral decision, that is, whether to have an honest debate or a dishonest contest of mere rhetoric. [–> a significant observation]
Whoever wrote that, it's just a assertion that the question "whether to have an honest or dishonest debate" is a moral question at all. For me, it's a pragmatic/preferential decision, not a moral one. The "morality" of a proposed act or decision never enters my mind. But, I can understand why someone steeped in morality thinks everyone must be acting out of moral considerations. I've already shown that morality can only be a version of "preference to enjoyment, direct or abstract." When we understand the self-evident nature of "preference to enjoyment, direct or abstract," it becomes clear we are all necessarily pursuing the same ends: maximum enjoyment. All decisions, even those which are called "moral," serve the same ends (enjoyment.) As such, all choices are pragmatic (as best one can) attempts to reach the desired enjoyable ends - including moral choices. KF cannot show morality to be self-evident; I can show my perspective to be not only self-evident, but necessarily true across all sentient beings anywhere in all possible worlds. William J Murray
Sandy, you are seeing a pale reflection of the Kantian ugly gulch between being and appearance. KM is directly aware of her own self-aware consciousness but struggles to recognise that other creatures she encounters are of the same essential nature, as a matter of self-evident certainty. She struggles with the veracity of the report of others, that they, too, are conscious [programmed zombies can issue utterances]. She doubts that her conscience is an oracle that just might be sound at least some of the time. She doesn't realise that there are no firewalls in our inner, mental, self-aware world so that if any major feature is subjected to hyperskeptical suspicion of general delusion, that propagates in an avalanche to create grand Plato's Cave style pervasive delusion. Or, tantamount to it, suspicion thereof. The resulting incoherence speaks for itself as we can so sadly see. And of course, she is likely to hotly object. But displacement to the perceived other does not solve the problem of collapse of credibility of rationality. And we can see such attempted projection above. This is a picture of the mess we have wrought because we thought we could erect a base for knowledge and rationality on evolutionary materialistic scientism, hyperskepticism and related isms as well as fellow travellers. We professed wisdom, and end in utter self-referential, self-defeating chaos. KF kairosfocus
Karen McMannus You don’t know if I or anyone besides yourself has consciousness or not.You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself?
:) You don’t know if I or anyone besides yourself don't have consciousness. You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself? Sandy
KM, BTW, language; I have for cause a very low tolerance for vulgarities. And in the [MIMO] cybernetic loop controllers with oracular supervisors is manifestly not nonsense, refuse or the like. You may want to look up Derek Smith's work. Notice, the somewhat related idea of adaptive controllers and controllers with learning. Notice, memory interfaces in such an architecture. KF PS: We are dealing with in part servo control and with decision making. kairosfocus
Mohammadnursyamsu @1188 WJM, the creationist conceptual scheme isn’t actually idealism, or close to it. A conceptual scheme that divides reality into 2 categories of creator and creation, can obviously only be called, creationism. Show me how you think subjectivity and objectivity functions then. Under IRT, sentient beings are creators that subjectively manifest out of potential (what we call imagination) that which they (and others manifesting the same general things) experience as objective reality/facts (the created world they "inhabit.") William J Murray
KM, I think it may help to add a summary on the structure of ethical thought:
Principles are broad general guidelines that all persons ought to follow. Morality is the dimension of life related to right conduct. It includes virtuous character and honorable intentions as well as the decisions and actions that grow out of them. Ethics on the other hand, is the [philosophical and theological] study of morality . . . [that is,] a higher order discipline that examines moral living in all its facets . . . . on three levels. The first level, descriptive ethics, simply portrays moral actions or virtues. A second level, normative ethics (also called prescriptive ethics), examines the first level, evaluating actions or virtues as morally right or wrong. A third level, metaethics, analyses the second . . . It clarifies the meaning of ethical terms and assesses the principles of ethical argument . . . . Some think, without reflecting on it, that . . . what people actually do is the standard of what is morally right . . . [But, what] actually happens and what ought to happen are quite different . . . . A half century ago, defenders of positivism routinely argued that descriptive statements are meaningful, but prescriptive statements (including all moral claims) are meaningless . . . In other words, ethical claims give no information about the world; they only reveal something about the emotions of the speaker . . . . Yet ethical statements do seem to say something about the realities to which they point. “That’s unfair!” encourages us to attend to circumstances, events, actions, or relationships in the world. We look for a certain quality in the world (not just the speaker’s mind) that we could properly call unfair. [Readings in Christian Ethics, Vol. 1: Theory and Method. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), pp. 18 – 19.]
Someone's or a circle's or even a sub-culture's or community's ethical views and changes or associated changes of behaviour patterns do not exhaust ethics and the underlying question of duty. Moral error exists, indeed your line of argument amounts to the moral truth claim that I and others who see certain ethical cases or principles as objective or even self-evidently certain truths regarding duty etc are in error. The irony involved would be amusing if it were not sad. Notice, again, because of the immediacy of absurdity on trying to deny a SET, its validation does not rely on elaboration of a worldview. Indeed, when we deal with pervasive first principles and duties, they are implicit and antecedent to reasoning or laying out worldview claims. Inescapability in rational life is a signature of self-evident first truth. Where, attempts to object or evade will inescapably appeal to same, as will misguided attempts to prove same. The selective hyperskepticism of our day is a crooked yardstick that makes us prone to be suspicious of first principles antecedent to and pervasive in rational, responsible, significantly free intelligent conduct, especially when expressed in language. However, such hyperskepticism is self-defeating. I again give an illustration regarding first principles of right reason, from Epictetus:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
The point should be clear. But, we here deal with the mutually entangled thickets of a civilisation crisis level problematique. KF kairosfocus
Jerry @1189, There's also the 4 published books since 1995, two blogs, three Facebook groups with thousands of members, two of which I helped found, a few interviews, and having cohosted two regular Zoom groups over the past 3 years on these or related topics. That's all not including here, so apparently the bet must have been much bigger than you think :) William J Murray
KM, I pick a point almost at random that illustrates a part of the underlying problems:
why do some people with certain brain injuries have radical shifts in their “morality” and “rational conduct?” An adjustment to your thinking may be in order.
Of course, the iconic case of this suffered disfigurement, loss and serious radical alteration of social status and relationships. The impact of such factors should be clear; it is not a simple direct matter of a physical impact at work. In addition, we have the problems of interaction, the brain and CNS are in the loop, input-output front end processors. Perception modification, proprioception modification, memory loss and alteration, processing loss, reduced capability to manage one's body and linked frustration, increased awareness of dangers and potential for loss, rise of hypochondria and worry, sometimes, delusions [which then further modify interactions with others who now perceive one as increasingly irrational], possible impacts of long term pain and disfigurement etc and many other factors are also credibly involved. Compare, here, cases of senile dementia and loss of long ingrained inhibitions and trained in polite restraints . . . compare drunkenness etc. The human being is an incredibly complex creature. Such has long since been discussed here and elsewhere. What is more relevant, more fundamental is the notion that a computational substrate aptly accounts for rational inference and judgement, likely by extension of the more grandiose hopes and IoU's of AI ideology, beyond the far more modest results of actual AI. I put up an example of that thinking, from a Nobel Prize winning Scientist, to draw out where such can go:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Similarly, note JBS Haldane's longstanding critique of such thinking:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
Here, Victor Reppert is also apt:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
The underlying analysis on limits of computation is general purpose and applies to neural network, digital machine, analogue machine, turing machine and hybrid architectures alike. The problem is, a computer is a dynamic-stochastic entity where next state or phase space trajectory unfolds based on present state, current inputs and environmental forces, stochastic noise and system architecture/organisation [with drift, wear component failure, redundancy etc involved]. Such a system is bound by cause-effect chains, it is not and cannot be creative, free enough to be rational. That is, GIGO rules the roost. Garbage in, garbage out. A notorious issue in computing. Where, under evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers, there is no credible programmer capable of creating a reliable organisation of elements and programming. For the computational capacity of the entire observed cosmos of 10^80 atoms for 10^17 s at ~10^14 valence shell chemistry energy level reactions per second [organic chem] is not credibly capable of finding islands of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. In short, computationalism is not a reasonable model of rational, responsible, significantly free logically inferring, prudently judging mind. Nor is any reasonable advancement of computer science or physics going to bridge the gap. Computationalism fails, but it is yet another deeply ingrained crooked yardstick. A potentially more fruitful approach, implicit in the Smith Model, is the Oracle Machine. Wikipedia is a 101:
In complexity theory and computability theory, an oracle machine is an abstract machine used to study decision problems. It can be visualized as a Turing machine with a black box, called an oracle, which is able to solve certain decision problems in a single operation. The problem can be of any complexity class. Even undecidable problems, such as the halting problem, can be used. An oracle machine can be conceived as a Turing machine connected to an oracle. The oracle, in this context, is an entity capable of solving some problem, which for example may be a decision problem or a function problem. The problem does not have to be computable; the oracle is not assumed to be a Turing machine or computer program. The oracle is simply a "black box" that is able to produce a solution for any instance of a given computational problem: A decision problem is represented as a set A of natural numbers (or strings). An instance of the problem is an arbitrary natural number (or string). The solution to the instance is "YES" if the number (string) is in the set, and "NO" otherwise. A function problem is represented by a function f from natural numbers (or strings) to natural numbers (or strings). An instance of the problem is an input x for f. The solution is the value f(x). An oracle machine can perform all of the usual operations of a Turing machine, and can also query the oracle to obtain a solution to any instance of the computational problem for that oracle. For example, if the problem is a decision problem for a set A of natural numbers, the oracle machine supplies the oracle with a natural number, and the oracle responds with "yes" or "no" stating whether that number is an element of A. There are many equivalent definitions of oracle Turing machines, as discussed below. The one presented here is from van Melkebeek (2000:43). An oracle machine, like a Turing machine, includes: a work tape: a sequence of cells without beginning or end, each of which may contain a B (for blank) or a symbol from the tape alphabet; a read/write head, which rests on a single cell of the work tape and can read the data there, write new data, and increment or decrement its position along the tape; a control mechanism, which can be in one of a finite number of states, and which will perform different actions (reading data, writing data, moving the control mechanism, and changing states) depending on the current state and the data being read. In addition to these components, an oracle machine also includes: an oracle tape, which is a semi-infinite tape separate from the work tape. The alphabet for the oracle tape may be different from the alphabet for the work tape. an oracle head which, like the read/write head, can move left or right along the oracle tape reading and writing symbols; two special states: the ASK state and the RESPONSE state. From time to time, the oracle machine may enter the ASK state. When this happens, the following actions are performed in a single computational step: the contents of the oracle tape are viewed as an instance of the oracle's computational problem; the oracle is consulted, and the contents of the oracle tape are replaced with the solution to that instance of the problem; the oracle head is moved to the first square on the oracle tape; the state of the oracle machine is changed to RESPONSE. The effect of changing to the ASK state is thus to receive, in a single step, a solution to the problem instance that is written on the oracle tape . . .
See what an oracular supervisor can do to a cybernetic system with an in the loop controller, by way of judgement, free inference etc? Where, any informational pattern that is intelligible and reducible to a message can be reduced to a string of bits, in a suitable language. So, analysis on Y/N one-bit oracular responses -- though fairly clumsy relative to real world judgements and decision-making, creative insights or epiphanies, etc -- is WLOG. Going further, I just note that a suggested model for interface is quantum influence. KF PS: Jerry et al, I think it is relevant to address a clear underlying issue with some degree of context or substance, for record. Others may or may not take such seriously or may even take trollish delight in dragging out considerable effort [see how we make him dance], but the fact of record stands. Record, that exposes yet another common crooked yardstick of our day. There is a saying of Solomon, the laughter of a fool is as the cracking of thorns under a pot. That is, as they feed the flame that cooks something far more worthwhile than the crackling they make as the flame reduces them to ashes. kairosfocus
Paige (attn AClue et al): First, the source of the turnabout projection tactic -- which you indubitably used above -- is not in doubt. It is entirely in order to warn against it and identify its utterly disgraceful roots. Where, kindly note the strawman game: I spoke to an action of rhetoric, a fallacious appeal (and the notorious prime exemplar of the tactic), NOT to inference of a mental state . . . you doubled down on a false projection that has been repeatedly corrected. Where, unfortunately, turnabout projection has become a standard tool of far too many in an increasingly polarised day. So, pardon me but your "new low" point and shriek, let's pile on rhetoric, as in how dare you raise a corrective . . . and clearly warranted . . . comparison to an iconic case of unquestionable deceitful evil, speaks for itself by way of self-referential incoherence. In short, yet again, you manage to miss that you are appealing to first duties of reason (albeit in error), in seeking to undermine their pervasive, inescapable authority you only managed to illustrate it. As for piling on and cross complaining, I need not defend others and whatever they may have done wrong [if that is so] to point out that the implicit appeal is that they are in the wrong. See the incoherence of the apparent underlying relativism? KF PS: Do you need me to point to iconic exemplars of point and shriek, pile on public shaming and stigmatising then scapegoating mob tactics? Please, think again regarding what is going on. kairosfocus
F/N2: It is relevant to expose some underlying evolutionary materialistic thinking by highlighting Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in their notorious 1991 essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”:
The time has come to take seriously the fact
[--> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc. and as the ideology of evolutionary materialistic scientism, which undergirds the perception of "fact" is an imposed, question-begging, self-refuting necessarily false assertion, not a fact]
that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again [--> why, isn't that a disguised "OUGHT," the very thing being trashed?] especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ [--> this speculation improperly dressed up as fact directly affects ethics, with implications for the first duties of reason] The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding… Ethics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [--> Yes, they are utterly unaware of how such undermines the credibility of reason thus their own rationality, by imposing grand delusion and undermining the moral government that drives how responsible rationality works] [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.]
Will Hawthorne, in reply to such ideological imposition, is deservedly withering, echoing the concerns Plato raised in The Laws, Bk X, concerns that reflect lessons hard-bought with blood and tears:
Assume (per impossibile) that atheistic naturalism [= evolutionary materialism] is true. Assume, furthermore, that one can't infer an 'ought' from an 'is' [the 'is' being in this context physicalist: matter-energy, space- time, chance and mechanical forces]. (Richard Dawkins and many other atheists should grant both of these assumptions.) Given our second assumption, there is no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer an 'ought'. And given our first assumption, there is nothing that exists over and above the natural world; the natural world is all that there is. It follows logically that, for any action you care to pick, there's no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer that one ought to refrain from performing that action. Add a further uncontroversial assumption: an action is permissible if and only if it's not the case that one ought to refrain from performing that action . . . [We see] therefore, for any action you care to pick, it's permissible to perform that action. If you'd like, you can take this as the meat behind the slogan 'if atheism is true, all things are permitted'. For example if atheism is true, every action Hitler performed was permissible. Many atheists don't like this [nihilistic, absurd] consequence of their worldview. But they cannot escape it and insist that they are being logical at the same time. Now, we all know that at least some actions are really not permissible (for example, racist actions). Since the conclusion of the argument denies this, there must be a problem somewhere in the argument. Could the argument be invalid? No. The argument has not violated a single rule of logic and all inferences were made explicit. Thus we are forced to deny the truth of one of the assumptions we started out with. That means we either deny atheistic naturalism or (the more intuitively appealing) principle that one can't infer 'ought' from [a material] 'is'.
The underlying incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism should not be underestimated. KF kairosfocus
F/N: As noted, ethicists have long critiqued the ever increasing dominance of relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. An example follows, which shows the utter incoherence of dominant ideologies regarding morality and its study:
Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts. Some think that tolerance is entailed by cultural relativism. But there is no necessary connection between tolerance and the doctrine. Indeed, the cultural relativist cannot consistently advocate tolerance while maintaining his relativist standpoint. To advocate tolerance is to advocate an objective moral value. But if tolerance is an objective moral value, then cultural relativism must be false, because it says that there are no objective moral values. Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, that social reformers can never be morally right, that moral disagreements between individuals in the same culture amount to arguments over whether they disagree with their culture, that other cultures cannot be legitimately criticized, and that moral progress is impossible. Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude. It seems that any nonmoral facts will do, as long as they affect attitudes. Perhaps the most far-reaching implication of emotivism is that nothing is actually good or bad. There simply are no properties of goodness and badness. There is only the expression of favorable or unfavorable emotions or attitudes toward something.
That is enough to establish utter failure. KF kairosfocus
KM, I am not SB. I have explicitly explained why I do not appeal to intuitions, even though there are those who speak of the response of understanding and recognising that a SET per its statement not only is but must be true. Notice how I took pains to highlight the immediate absurdities of attempted denial. And there they are yet again. In denying first duties, you imply our duties to truth, right reason, warrant etc yet again. This illustrates the pervasive, inescapable presence of first truths as all your objections do. The matter is so plain that it is clear that it is the presence of other controlling commitments that leads you to resist the force of evidence you yourself provide. Beyond, we can use the yardstick case, the evil of kidnapping, sexually torturing and murdering a young child on the way home from school to show just how manifest is a case of blatant evil. If a worldview, no matter how hard the relativism is drummed in, cannot recognise and see that blatant evil violates first duties, it fails. Your attempted response collapses. That your response reflects widespread ideas entrenched in education, media, policy etc is a red warning flag on where our civilisation is. KF PS: This is a quick, summary response to the main issue. I now, again, append Lewis Vaughn's critique. kairosfocus
@Paige:
Wow, this is a new low. Clairvoyantly assigning motives to others and smearing them with Nazi insinuations.
Are you new to this forum? This is old. We have Jerry's sex with 10-year-olds, Joe's mating of humans and animals, lot's of 1984 and Nazi references. Even a supporter of ID was called a quisling, when he dared to speak against the party line. While some analogies are appropriate, many are there just to troll or stem from triggered snowflakes. AndyClue
Paige Using the words “ new low, “ and “smear” just seems so judgmental as if he shouldn’t being saying those things especially if it makes him happy. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Should he not be doing that?
If he chooses to insinuate Nazi motives to those he disagrees with rather than have a civil discussion, I am certainly not going to stop him. It is not the approach I would take but he should do whatever makes him happy. paige
Vivid, My bad that I assumed someone with a consciousness is engaging with me won’t do it again with you. Well, what mode are you in? Philosophical mode? Or regular-guy-on-street mode? Not the same thing. I'll be happy to dispense with the philosophy talk and just be a regular gal for the sake of garden variety "hello neighbor" superficial chit chat, if that's what you're looking for. Karen McMannus
Paige “Wow, this is a new low. Clairvoyantly assigning motives to others and smearing them with Nazi insinuations” Should he not be doing that? Vivid vividbleau
KF
Paige, you tried the good old Goebbels turnabout projection trick.
Wow, this is a new low. Clairvoyantly assigning motives to others and smearing them with Nazi insinuations. paige
KM “It may make you feel better to assume that as a working hypothesis, but a single data point (you)” My bad that I assumed someone with a consciousness is engaging with me won’t do it again with you. Totally unjustified Vivid vividbleau
VB
Paige Got it ,no one “should” do anything in your worldview.
I thought I was being clear. People should be free to do whatever they want to do as long as it does not harm others. A crackpot denying the Holocaust does no harm to anyone other than the person doing the denying. paige
Vivid: Me: An unjustified conclusion You: How so? Existence does not entail consciousness. You don't know if I or anyone besides yourself has consciousness or not. You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself? It may make you feel better to assume that as a working hypothesis, but a single data point (yourself) amongst billions of subjects does not a general entailment make. Karen McMannus
If KF is making the claim that his moral intuitions are “self-evident” because the creator programmed them into his brain to see them as such, then he is special indeed,>> 1: Nowhere have I claimed or implied such, you are setting up and knocking over a strawman caricature. SB said, "[KF's] position does not depend on his ontological premise because it is based on intuitive knowledge of a self evident truth, – which is more basic than his ontological perspective. Indeed, it is this same self-evident truth that *informs* his ontological perspective." You did not correct him. Are you correcting him now then? If so, fair enough. 2: You will note that I do not normally speak of intuitions, as that invites inferences of a mysterious occult power only certain adepts have that makes their claims above normal reasoning. Which, of course, is exactly the strawman you target. The grounding of your view rests on "occult power", because you believe in an occult supernatural creator of human brains. 3: I do acknowledge that we can be directly aware of our conscious existence, of our perceptions [I am appeared to redly and roundly by a certain object sensed in my visual field, or I can imagine such], thoughts, intent and that nagging little voice of conscience. The "nagging little voice" varies from person to person, is in no-wise a window into "self-evident" truth, and the grounding ontology one holds is a judge regarding the value of that "nagging voice." 4: Such realities may or may not be veridical, They are not necessarily... in terms of specific contents, under various conditions but I also point to the Reidian, common sense point that we cannot allow grand delusion One man's ontology is another's grand delusion. , error is either limited or rationality evaporates. I would say you are an example of that. (Shrug) 5: Specifically, being conscious is pervasive and a first truth, a self-evident truth. It's my only self-evident truth. ...All other truths, thoughts, awareness etc comes through this. Agreed. 6: That establishes that there is a possibility of a subject to accurately and even certainly perceive truth, I perceive stuff. I don't know of a surely how much of it is "true." (Sidebar: Is English a second langauge for you? Just curious.) and to warrant such objectively. I have experiences. I make conclusions. I don't know how much "truth" is contained therein. Even, to self-evident, utter certainty. See items 5 and 6. 7: The notion, perceived by an error-prone subject — and, that error exists is an undeniable, self-evident truth also — so suspect, evaporates. What is required is warrant Gawd that's awful prose. From what I can tell of your statement, I reply: all of my conclusions are error-prone. Who's aren't? much as Plantinga argued and I modified for the weak knowledge case. Plantinga is full of shinola. Almost as bad of a philosopher as I judge you to be. 8: Notice, I adjusted Cicero, to duty to SOUND conscience, Here, let me fix that for you: duty emotion. i.e. duties to truth, right reason and prudence [including warrant] affect how we respond to the built in voice of conscience. Conscience is not a creator of morality but a compass that, where sound, responds aptly to duty. I don't have any such duties. Sell that emotion-driven shinola to someone else. The fact that Reason judges conscience/emotion using ontology should tell you something that you are not seeing. Maybe an adjustment is in order. (Too bad not everyone is like that.) 9: Strawman already corrected. Not in a million years. But his programming 10: Programming is the very opposite of rational, necessarily freely made inference. You didn't construct your brain. Something else did. And your "conscience" and reason are products of it. You use you reason to judge "conscience." You know you do. And you are a programmed entity. And you can't help it. 11: Indeed, let us augment: >>the creator programmed them into his brain>>, shows that you fail to understand that the brain is a computational substrate and as such cannot be the seat of free rational inference. You don't know enough about the brain to any sort of claim such as that. We do know that the brain is programmed to be of a certain nature. That nature can be damaged by physical injury that effects its actions. 12: Brains and PCs or analogue computers alike work from cause-effect chains tied to present state, organisation, input and noise leading to next state, they are not relevant to freely made ground-consequent inferences or evidence-cogency-support inductive judgements. Your free will, to the extent you have it, is limited by the brain and its programming. See #11. 13: Many times, I have pointed to Eng Derek Smith’s two tier controller, cybernetic loop model as a suitable context for discussiuon. Boring me now. Duties, man, duties. 14: Under this model, the brain and CNS are in the loop i/o controllers with proprioception, tied to a higher order supervisor, the true seat of free volitional thought and action, even so mundane an action as typing out a comment. Quantum influences have been suggested as interface. I do process control engineering (among other things) for a living. Don't spout [SNIP] to me about loop I/O controllers. Duties, man, duties. 15: TL;DR: brain/CNS programming is irrelevant to rational conduct, it is confusing an in the loop i/o controller with the supervisory mind. Then why do some people with certain brain injuries have radical shifts in their "morality" and "rational conduct?" An adjustment to your thinking may be in order. >> would be useless to anyone who doesn’t share his programming>> 16: Programming is blind, GIGO-limited and inherently dynamic-stochastic, as opposed to rationally, responsibly, significantly free. Programs work because someone has done an adequate design and debugging job, they have no inherent reliability. There is no radical difference between the physics and connections of a chimp's brain and you brain. The difference is software. I.e, the programming/wiring. Also, see #15. >>, unless he could demonstrate some benefit that appeals to others even if they do not perceive such a self-evident truth. >> 17: Knocking over a strawman, distractive from the true issue on the table. Useless reply. 18: Distractive, insistently, after many opportunities to address the substantial matter and not a few specific correctives. Useless reply. 19: Persistence in such is diagnostic of crooked yardsticks being used to try to dismiss the message of a plumb line: not true [straight], not upright. Useless reply. Karen McMannus
Paige, you tried the good old Goebbels turnabout projection trick. It fails, apart from being in company you don't want to keep. Did you not notice that it depends on, what one should not do, i.e. you again implicitly appeal to duty to truth, right reason, warrant etc? In short, yet again, the inescapability surfaces and points to the first principle truths at work, which are self evident. KF kairosfocus
KM “Assuming I am conscious.” Of course “Your subjective perception and conclusion believes I do.” Of course “An unjustified conclusion” How so? Vivid vividbleau
Paige Got it ,no one “should” do anything in your worldview. Vivid vividbleau
KF about WJM: I am concerned as he has done many solid things over years. This does not discredit those things but some rebuilding is now in order Bwahahaha. Now that made me LOL. Thanks! Karen McMannus
vivid: certainly your thoughts, preferences, world view, etc about things are subjective Assuming I am conscious. but you objectively exist Your subjective perception and conclusion believes I do. and your existence entails your consciousness. An unjustified conclusion. Karen McMannus
Sorry VB, I am still unsure what you are asking. Should they deny it? From who’s or what perspective? From my perspective, I am completely indifferent. Scream it from the pulpit if you want. Better yet, go to a local synagogue and express your arguments that the Holocaust didn’t happen. paige
Paige “Regardless of whether or not they believe the Holocaust happened, I fully support their right to deny it as long as they are not inciting violence” You must have me confused with someone else. I did not ask whether you support their right to deny it. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Holocaust deniers deny that the Holocaust happened, do you agree they should not be denying that it happened?
Regardless of whether or not they believe the Holocaust happened, I fully support their right to deny it as long as they are not inciting violence. paige
Paige Holocaust deniers deny that the Holocaust happened, do you agree they should not be denying that it happened? Vivid vividbleau
That kind of superficiality of people going to wiki, is ofcourse what these kinds of leftists rely on to slander and cancel people. If someone says, they aren't a racist, then generally they are not racist. If Irving says he confirms the holocaust, and millions of people died, then he confirms the holocaust. I don't really know the work of Irving much at all, but given the facts, it is obviously slandering. Irving was even put in prison in Austria, for denying the holocaust. It is just this kind of leftist oppression of free speech. mohammadnursyamsu
KF
Paige, there is simple ignorance and there is willful hyperskepticism insisted on despite what one should know, should acknowledge.
Like your insistence on objective moral truths? paige
VB
Should they not deny that the Holocaust happened ?
I’m sorry. Your question is confusing. Could you please rephrase it? paige
Paige Should they not deny that the Holocaust happened ? Vivid vividbleau
Paige “Ignorance is the lack of knowledge.” They don’t have a lack of knowledge. How can they deny something they have no knowledge about the thing they are denying? Vivid vividbleau
Paige, there is simple ignorance and there is willful hyperskepticism insisted on despite what one should know, should acknowledge. KF kairosfocus
VB
All well and good but it is not out of ignorance.
Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. Knowledge is facts and information acquired by education and experience. If a Holocaust denier does not believe the facts they are still denying because of a lack of knowledge. In other words, ignorance. paige
Jerry, no, it's just not the more well known person of that name. I am concerned as he has done many solid things over years. This does not discredit those things but some rebuilding is now in order. KF kairosfocus
Paige “I think WJM’s arguments are germane to the disagreement we are having. If a person’s deeply held worldview is incompatible with the holocaust, they either have to discard or significantly modify their worldview, or find reasons to question the evidence.” All well and good but it is not out of ignorance. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Hmmmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving
Definitely not someone I would want to spend any time with. paige
VB, history is full of people who denied evidence that the vast majority found compelling and iron-clad. This may call into question their intelligence, reasoning ability, ability to impartially interpret evidence, and possibly even their sanity. But unless we can read minds we can't conclude that they personally acknowledge the facts to themselves but deny them publicly to further some personal agenda. My personal opinion is that some of them are perfectly aware of the facts but publicly deny them to further their anti-Semitic or pro-Nazi agenda. But this opinion is based on my incredulity that someone could deny the holocaust, not on any knowledge about what they honestly believe. I think WJM's arguments are germane to the disagreement we are having. If a person's deeply held worldview is incompatible with the holocaust, they either have to discard or significantly modify their worldview, or find reasons to question the evidence. I suspect that many holocaust deniers are people who opted for the latter. But neither of us will know for sure until Dr. Brown perfects his mind-reading helmet. paige
Hmmmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving and once declared at a rally of Holocaust deniers that “more women died in the back seat of Edward Kennedy’s car than ever died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz,”[202] So he speaks at Holocaust deniers rallies and no woman died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz but he is not a Holocaust denier.. Vivid vividbleau
They did some job on Irving in trial, by doing million dollar "research", and then having him pay for the research in the judgement. Irving says that the holocaust happened. He puts some lower number on it, but still in the millions. So it is just a total lie that Irving denies the holocaust. I think this is just part of the leftists, trying to stop free speech. The same kind of tactic that is used to call people racists, and fascists, willynilly, in order to cancel them. mohammadnursyamsu
I don’t think any serious person would willingly wreck his credibility like that as a joke
He’s not wrecking anything. Nobody knows who he is and this forum is next to meaningless for him. But you are right, he is not currently a serious person. Here’s a scenario. Murray is sitting in a bar over a year ago with a friend and tells his friend that he participates on a site about Intelligence Design. Murray then says you should see some of the nonsense some people believe and that other people treat the nonsense as serious and respond trying to correct them. He then says I bet I can generate 20,000 comments by making up similar nonsense. He then reads a book on weird philosophies and writes as if he believes them. Murray has won his bet. jerry
WJM, the creationist conceptual scheme isn't actually idealism, or close to it. A conceptual scheme that divides reality into 2 categories of creator and creation, can obviously only be called, creationism. Show me how you think subjectivity and objectivity functions then. mohammadnursyamsu
Paige Was David Irving ignorant of the facts about the Holocaust? Is this what you call my opinion? “Deborah Lipstadt's 1993 book, Denying the Holocaust, sharply criticized various Holocaust deniers, including British author David Irving, for deliberately misrepresenting evidence to justify their preconceived conclusions. In the book, Lipstadt named Irving as "one of the more dangerous" Holocaust deniers, because he was a published author, and was viewed by some as a legitimate military historian. He was "familiar with historical evidence", she wrote, and "bends it until it conforms with his ideological leanings and political agenda". In 1996, Irving filed a libel suit against Lipstadt and her publisher, Penguin Books. Irving, who appeared as a defense witness in Ernst Zündel's trial in Canada, and once declared at a rally of Holocaust deniers that "more women died in the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car than ever died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz,"[202] claimed that Lipstadt's allegation damaged his reputation. American historian Christopher Browning, an expert witness for the defense, wrote a comprehensive essay for the court summarizing the voluminous evidence for the reality of the Holocaust, and under cross-examination, effectively countered all of Irving's principal arguments to the contrary.[96] Cambridge historian Richard J. Evans, another defense expert witness, spent two years examining Irving's writings and confirmed his misrepresentations, including evidence that he had knowingly used forged documents as source material. After a two-month trial in London the trial judge, Justice Charles Gray, issued a 333-page ruling against Irving, which referred to him as a "Holocaust denier" and "right-wing pro-Nazi polemicist."[97][203]” Vivid vividbleau
Sandy, you are quoting stupid dictionary definitions by atheists, for atheists. Objective = what can only be identified with a fact forced by the evidence of it, resulting in a one to one corresponding model of it, in the mind Subjective = what can only be identified with a chosen opinion Chosen things, creations, are objective. Meaning they can only be identified with a fact, forced by the evidence of it. For example, to measure the circumference of the moon, the mass, what it consists of, the craters on it's surface, all these facts together make up a 1 to 1 corresponding model of the moon, in the mind. So the basic logic of objectivity is just to copy. Copy from the universe of nature, to the universe of the mind. Creators, everything on the side of what makes a choice, are subjective. Meaning they can only be identified with a chosen opinion. To say Jack is courageous, or a coward. The word courageous ,or coward ,must be chosen, and the words express who Jack is as being a decisionmaker. You look at the decisions Jack made, and then you feel what it was that made his decisions turn out the way they did. Then by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, you choose either opinion that Jack was courageous, or a coward. So the basic logic of subjectivity is that an opinion is formed by choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice. You choose the word "courageous", and the word expresses who Jack is as being a decisionmaker. By choice, an inherently subjective, spiritual creator, creates inherently objective material creations. You must memorize the creationist categories, that should have been part of your basic education, together with abc and 1+1=2. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
Jerry, I don't think any serious person would willingly wreck his credibility like that as a joke. Coming back from where that went will not be easy. Sad. KF kairosfocus
KM “My consciousness is not at all objective, by definition. It is subjective. “ Certainly your thoughts, preferences, world view, etc about things are subjective but you objectively exist and your existence entails your consciousness. Without you there would be no consciousness. Vivid vividbleau
Paige “No, you challenged my response with opinion. Unless, of course, you can read the minds of Holocaust deniers.” No I did not challenge your response with opinion I challenged your response with facts. There was even an extensive libel court case brought by a Holocaust denier where all the facts were presented. To say the denier is ignorant about the facts is ludicrous. But hey if I were you I too would want to wrap this package up and send it off to the space shuttle rather than answer my question. “How in the heck can someone be honestly willfully ignorant? How can one be honestly willfully ignorant without knowing what they are honestly willfully being ignorant about?” Vivid vividbleau
Kf, Murray doesn’t believe anything he posts. He’s playing a game. You are responding to his nonsense as desired by him Occasionally a truism is accidentally included but that’s it. He is joined by others doing the same thing. jerry
WJM, I am sorry to see where you elected to go. I simply point to the reidan common sense issue that we refrain from notions that imply grand delusion because, not least the avalanche of self-referential loss of credibility that results. As facts of life from birds and bees to hospitals and graveyards are well known to us all, I simply note that any worldview suggesting or implying that we are framework entities for any possible world to exist massively fails comparative difficulties, starting with factual adequacy. I guess I should note that no I am not committed to this being the only world within reality, but that is just a personal note. The terrible damage has been done, and you did it to yourself. There is little more to say, other than to hope for a reconsideration. KF kairosfocus
The inescapable ontological existential epistemological contingent assumption about the theoretical question of preference origin is
Does Murray breathe?
I just filled out my Bingo card. The other inescapable truth is the answer to the question
Is Murray a pretend Sophist?
jerry
This makes me a necessary being.
Of course,of course...but this theory is not yours ,was given to you by fallen angels. If you would have been a necessary being you wouldn't need fallen angels to teach you nothing. Sandy
KF said:
WJM, Jerry above showed our contingent dependence on food, water and air. Likewise, we had a definite beginning, often marked by birth date, less seven to nine or so months. Like a fire, we are not causally independent of other things and we are not part of the fabric for any world to be possible. Our contingency is not in doubt. KF
This is an example of what I'm talking about when I say that your epistemology extends from an unrecognized, assumed ontology. You're talking about what is observable from your current perspective, which does not bind nor can presume to describe the full nature of my existence. My existence could precede my entry into this world at conception or birth or sometime in-between. Does the sun come into existence at the horizon in the east, and go out of existence at the western horizon? Your own ontology says I will continue to exist after death, so death does not represent the end of existence. Many ontologies have that our existence precedes birth, including my own ontology. You say my existence is not necessary in all possible worlds, but that is a poorly-worded statement. In the set off "all possible worlds," my existence as a potential being in a potential world is in fact necessary, because all possibilities exist as possibilities - not in every single possible world, but in the full set of all possible worlds. Your ontology is that only one possible world actually exists. My ontology is that all possible worlds actually exist. This makes me a necessary being. William J Murray
Kairosfocus WJM, Jerry above showed our contingent dependence on food, water and air. Likewise, we had a definite beginning, often marked by birth date, less seven to nine or so months. Like a fire, we are not causally independent of other things and we are not part of the fabric for any world to be possible. Our contingency is not in doubt. KF
Even WJM is wrong ,he is in his rights(free will-given by God) to reject anything he wants. Sandy
Our contingency is not in doubt
He'll be back with more nonsense. It's an existential need that is apparently peculiar to many but the particular contrariness is something that is learned as opposed to built it. Being contrary is something that is fairly common so maybe/probably it is in the nature of us. Which is why we as a species have uniquely progressed. But for some being contrary seems be a goal in itself as opposed to a means to progress. jerry
Mohammadnursyamsu Presenting the evidence that morality is subjective, and that objective morality is actually the main cause of immoral behaviour, by a reasonable subjective judgement.
objective =expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations subjective= relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states Sandy
WJM, Jerry above showed our contingent dependence on food, water and air. Likewise, we had a definite beginning, often marked by birth date, less seven to nine or so months. Like a fire, we are not causally independent of other things and we are not part of the fabric for any world to be possible. Our contingency is not in doubt. KF kairosfocus
Presenting the evidence that morality is subjective, and that objective morality is actually the main cause of immoral behaviour, by a reasonable subjective judgement. 1. Scripture states that the original sin, is to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which means to make good and evil to be an objective fact, is the sin amongst sins, the original sin. When good and evil are made a fact, then we are just calculating a course of action, as like a chesscomputer calcultes a move, using the facts about what is good and evil, to automatically evaluate options. So there is no conscience in it, no reference to the spirit, no real choice, it is only calculation. 2. Nazi ideology presents an objective morality based on natrual selection theory. Nazi ideology asserts a factual outlook on life, which adapts itself to circumstances. The main foundation is the perception of the unlikeness of man, particularly in regards to personal character. Which personal character they assert can be estabilished as a matter of fact of biology. Then biological selection is extended to "socialist selection", which meant "wiping out the less worthy". The notion of subjectivity of nazi's is like, Aryans have this opinion, and Jews have that opinion. It is not, people can choose this or that opinon. The opinions of people are a forced consequence of their biological nature. So really, the nazi's objectified subjectivity itself. So it is shown that objective morality was at the basis of nazism, which nazism is reasonable judged by subjective judgement to be horrific. 3. Facebook is awash with atheists who assert that emotions can be measured in the brain with an mri, as a matter of objective scientific fact. Consequently subjectivity, statements about beauty and such, become to be a subcategory of objectivity, namely objective facts about particular brainstates. To say a painting is beautiful, then becomes to be a statement of fact that a love for the way the painting looks, exists in the brain. So then atheists are also forced into an objective morality, same as nazism. But with generally more flexibilty than nazism. The morality is then a function of what people factually consist of, ie the morality is a function of the objective / factual love in their brain. So there is generally overhelming evidence that objective morality is by reasonable subjective judgement totally horrific. Ofcourse the evidence here is subjective. It is just the opinion that the holocaust was horrific. If one doesn't find the holocaust to be horrific, then it would not be evidence that objective morality is horrific. The creationist conceptual scheme proves that morality is subjective. Because moral statements are in respect to the spirit, which spirit is inherently objective. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
A requirement for continued living does not represent a duty to do so
More absurdly. It most certainly does represent a duty. The need for continued living/existence comes from the nature of the species. It is built in. What is required to meet this existential need of the species is an obligatory requirement or duty. Aside: people get caught in the trap of their own non-sequiturs so they the try to wiggle their way out by redefining words from their common meaning. Just adding more absurdly to their remarks. jerry
Jerry said:
You breathe, drink and eat to stay alive. They are self evident and duties and are the inescapably obvious result of our/your nature.
Because I must eat and drink to stay alive (at least in this world) doesn't mean I have a duty to eat or drink or stay alive.
If you did not feel required to do all these required activities (duties), we would be spared all your nonsense.
A requirement for continued living does not represent a duty to do so. William J Murray
KF said:
But we are contingent creatures,..
Bald assertion.
And, though you struggle mightily with it, so does moral absurdity.
An amoral world comprised of sentient beings is not an absurdity in any sense of the word.
For example it is manifestly a great injustice, a violation of duty, to ...
Only if you believe in "justice" and "duty," which I do not. You don't succeed at establishing "justice" or "duty" out of feelings.
Evasions, as we can see aplenty, imply cognitive dissonance between this recognition of the reasonable person ...
Mind reading and armchair psychology.
and some crooked yardstick a priori that it highlights as a genuine unfortunately real world yardstick case.
Feelings are not universal yardsticks or plumb lines.
The plumb line that tests both is duty to the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights freedoms and responsibilities. KFM
Asserting your perspective and belief in things like existential justice, rights, freedoms and responsibilities does not reveal that perspective as a universal plumb line, nor does it make my perspective a "crooked yardstick." William J Murray
As I pointed out above, moral duties are not self-evident because they are not inescapably necessary across all possible sentient-being ontologies;
Obvious nonsense. You breathe, drink and eat to stay alive. They are self evident and duties and are the inescapably obvious result of our/your nature. If you did not feel required to do all these required activities (duties), we would be spared all your nonsense. Aside: they are not the only required activities for staying alive. Thus, there are numerous other duties. Aside2: we would also be spared a lot of nonsense by people not feeling the need to continually answer nonsense which then begets an endless chain of nonsense. jerry
To reiterate some arguments I've already made about duty: 1. As I pointed out above, moral duties are not self-evident because they are not inescapably necessary across all possible sentient-being ontologies; 2. A duty can only be said to exist where behavior is not inescapable, so the case for duties must be made separate from inescapable behaviors, like fundamental use of logic and inescapable use of truth statements. 3. I cannot be said to be acting out of, in reference to, or in defiance of a duty I do not know I have; 4. Even if I acknowledge a duty, that duty is meaningless sophistry without consequences; 5. To make a rational decision about whether or not to act in accordance with a duty, I must know the consequences pro or con; 6. In order for me to make the decision to fulfill my duty, the consequence for fulfilling it must be preferable to the consequences for not fulfilling it; 7. Therefore, the choice to fulfill (or not fulfill) a duty requires (1) my knowledge of both the duties and the consequences and (2) my preference for one consequence over the other. 8. For a proposed existential duty, the consequences must be existential and inescapable. When KF makes an argument for existential duties without appeals to inescapable behaviors and inescapable truth telling, AND makes the case for inescapable consequences pro and con where I will prefer one over the other, AND either makes that case in terms of "inescapability across all possible ontologies" or that this is the actual ontology we exist in/under making his duties necessary aspects of the particular conditions of this actual ontological existence, then he'll have a significant case for existential moral duties. William J Murray
WJM So, KF is 100% wrong about that, period. He cannot be right.
Thank you for your wonderful feel of duty to tell us the objective truth that is no feel of duty. Hahaha! Sandy
A video just out this morning on the natural law and behavior.
For all of recorded history, the need to explain why fathers are necessary would have been regarded as, well, unnecessary. It would have been like explaining why water, or air, is necessary. But we live at a time in which the obvious is routinely denied.
https://www.prageru.com/video/are-fathers-necessary/ One of many presentations that has appeared over the years indicating that the obvious is routinely denied. Another from 5 years ago. https://www.prageru.com/video/black-fathers-matter/ UD is an extremely small microcosm of the world but it too attracts the dysfunctional mind as we see reading a lot of recent OP’s. The real question is have these dysfunctional minds always existed? And were they just never given a platform till the internet? Or has something else happened to create more dysfunctional minds? jerry
Again, one of the big problems with communicating about morality is the conflation of "universal morality" with "objective morality." Many moralities objectively exist; the question is whether or not those varied objective moralities all exist in relation to a universal morality, which would be the benchmark for figuring out which objective morality most accurately represents the universal morality. Subjective morality, though, IMO is an irrational phrase, and this is revealed by the kind of argument VB is making. People naturally resist accepting that their subjective morality = personal preference because this leaves them no means by which to label the behavior of others as morally wrong. This is hammered down as evident when "subjective moralists" are presented with either the Holocaust or "tortured children" examples; few people are willing to say "there's nothing morally wrong with that behavior." Now, one can make arguments that such behavior is "wrong" outside of moral considerations, but all of those arguments take the form of non-preferential consequences from the perspective of the person saying that behavior is "wrong." The "wrongness" of the thing, outside of either objective or universal moralities, always boils down to personal preferences, either direct or abstract. William J Murray
Now, I get to where I'm trying to support KF's argument. He can make the case that in the ontology we actually exist in, moral duty is a necessary truth even if it is not a self-evident truth. Necessary truths about the nature of things in an actual world (ontological qualities that can be understood as necessary in that existent world) must be derived from the conditions of that actual world because they are not self-evidently true (not applicable to all possible ontologies.) So, moral duty might be a necessary truth about our actual world, but that would require actual ontological conditions necessary to provide for moral duties that are not discoverable as self-evidently true. How do you establish that the conditions that provide for moral duties exist? IOW, how do you show that this actual world has in it the conditions which provide for existential moral duties? But, you and KF have taken a different strategy, I believe because you cannot successfully argue that the conditions that provide for moral duties actually exist, because none of that is actually self-evidently true. That strategy is the assertion that moral duties themselves are self-evidently true, but IMO the way you and KF try to make that case, either by intuition or the way KF does (which I've listed the logical faults of several times,) is either just bad logic or woefully insufficient. BA77 at least attempts to make the case that the conditions that provide for moral duties actually exist, especially in his arguments about the Shroud of Turin and black holes. KF claims that I am acting in reference to an existential duty, whether I know it or not, or have agreed to it or not. I cannot be acting in reference to, or out of, a duty, without at least knowing what my duty is. Any act that can be said in reference to, or out of, or in defiance of a duty, at least requires me knowing what the duty is. Even if duties exist that I am unaware of, ***I*** cannot be acting in reference to, out of, or in defiance of a duty unless ***I*** know what that duty is. Yes, ignorance of the law doesn't allow you to escape the consequences of your unlawful actions, but if I am ignorant of the law, it cannot be said that my choices are made by me in reference to, out of, or in defiance of a law I don't even know exists or a duty I don't even know I have. I myself cannot be acting out of or in reference to duties I don't even know I have. So, KF is 100% wrong about that, period. He cannot be right. William J Murray
WJM, it is a classic, directly self-evident truth that a self aware individual exists, i.e. consciousness is self evident truth. But we are contingent creatures, so self evidence is not tied to necessary being. That is a further step, entities necessary for any world to be. Truths do connect to a given possible world, as accurate decriptions of states of affairs. Self evident truths are a sub class, truths that once one is able to understand, will be recognised as true and necessarily so on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. Not self contradiction, absurdity. Self discredit as under grand delusion counts. So does being an inescapable feature of reasoned thought or argument, e.g. the LOI etc. And, though you struggle mightily with it, so does moral absurdity. For example it is manifestly a great injustice, a violation of duty, to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a child on the way home from school. Denial does not entail incoherence or even grand delusion, but it does imply being monstrous. Evasions, as we can see aplenty, imply cognitive dissonance between this recognition of the reasonable person and some crooked yardstick a priori that it highlights as a genuine unfortunately real world yardstick case. The plumb line that tests both is duty to the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights freedoms and responsibilities. KF kairosfocus
VB
You made a claim,I asked a question about your claim., you appealed to ignorance, I challenged your position with facts
No, you challenged my response with opinion. Unless, of course, you can read the minds of Holocaust deniers. paige
SB: I really appreciate your contributions above. This morning I was trying to think of ways you and KF could be right, and it led me to what you might call an epiphany about self-evident true statements, ontology and epistemology. True statements are always about ontological entities or qualities, or at least proposed ontological entities and qualities, such as "I exist," A=A, and 2+2 =4. When I took your side in mind, I realized, I cannot even identify an ontological entity without the capacity to make some sort of true statement about it. This is when I realized what a self-evidently true statement really was, and how it could be understood as such: self-evidently true statements are where ontology and epistemology are inescapably welded together and cannot exist apart from each other. IOW, a self-evidently true statement is necessarily true in every possible ontology. They are statements about every possible ontology because they identify ontological entities, such as "I," or ontological qualities, such as A=A, that are inescapably true. So, neither ontology or epistemology precede each other at the point of a self-evident truth; there, they cannot be parted from each other. This is why the contrary of an actual self-evident truth is a logical absurdity; they are true in every possible ontology because they identify inescapable ontological entities or qualities. Moral duties are not self-evidently true because even KF would agree, they are not inescapably necessary aspects of all possible ontologies. Even if we are created by a good God as moral entities with duties, that is not the only possible ontology, even if all other possible ontologies are not actual. It may be factually true that we all have existential moral duties. This may be why virtually everyone reacts the way they do to certain events, proposed or actual. However, moral duties are not self-evidently true because the are not inescapably, necessarily true in every possible ontology. Edited to add: The above should be recognized to mean: in all possible ontologies where conscious, sentient beings exist or can exist in. William J Murray
Vivid, there is such a thing as willful, culpable ignorance due to refusing to acknowledge what you should know. This is often a motive for hyperskeptical rhetorical tactics. And not just for louts trying to model Hitler as a champion of western civilisation and a champion of the "white" -- oops, "Aryan" [Madam Blavatsky . . . ] -- race. Jews, BTW, manifestly are "white." So are many hispanics. I had a cousin whose US ID classified her as White! (She looked Hispanic, thanks to classic St Elizabeth mixup.) KF kairosfocus
KM, I leave you to SB for most of your exchange with him, I will note on:
[KM to SB:] If KF is making the claim that his moral intuitions are “self-evident” because the creator programmed them into his brain to see them as such, then he is special indeed, (Too bad not everyone is like that.) But his programming would be useless to anyone who doesn’t share his programming, unless he could demonstrate some benefit that appeals to others even if they do not perceive such a self-evident truth.
I clip and comment: >>If KF is making the claim that his moral intuitions are “self-evident” because the creator programmed them into his brain to see them as such, then he is special indeed,>> 1: Nowhere have I claimed or implied such, you are setting up and knocking over a strawman caricature. 2: You will note that I do not normally speak of intuitions, as that invites inferences of a mysterious occult power only certain adepts have that makes their claims above normal reasoning. Which, of course, is exactly the strawman you target. 3: I do acknowledge that we can be directly aware of our conscious existence, of our perceptions [I am appeared to redly and roundly by a certain object sensed in my visual field, or I can imagine such], thoughts, intent and that nagging little voice of conscience. 4: Such realities may or may not be veridical, in terms of specific contents, under various conditions but I also point to the Reidian, common sense point that we cannot allow grand delusion, error is either limited or rationality evaporates. 5: Specifically, being conscious is pervasive and a first truth, a self-evident truth. All other truths, thoughts, awareness etc comes through this. 6: That establishes that there is a possibility of a subject to accurately and even certainly perceive truth, and to warrant such objectively. Even, to self-evident, utter certainty. 7: The notion, perceived by an error-prone subject -- and, that error exists is an undeniable, self-evident truth also -- so suspect, evaporates. What is required is warrant, much as Plantinga argued and I modified for the weak knowledge case. 8: Notice, I adjusted Cicero, to duty to SOUND conscience, i.e. duties to truth, right reason and prudence [including warrant] affect how we respond to the built in voice of conscience. Conscience is not a creator of morality but a compass that, where sound, responds aptly to duty. >> (Too bad not everyone is like that.)>> 9: Strawman already corrected. >> But his programming>> 10: Programming is the very opposite of rational, necessarily freely made inference. 11: Indeed, let us augment: >>the creator programmed them into his brain>>, shows that you fail to understand that the brain is a computational substrate and as such cannot be the seat of free rational inference. 12: Brains and PCs or analogue computers alike work from cause-effect chains tied to present state, organisation, input and noise leading to next state, they are not relevant to freely made ground-consequent inferences or evidence-cogency-support inductive judgements. 13: Many times, I have pointed to Eng Derek Smith's two tier controller, cybernetic loop model as a suitable context for discussiuon. 14: Under this model, the brain and CNS are in the loop i/o controllers with proprioception, tied to a higher order supervisor, the true seat of free volitional thought and action, even so mundane an action as typing out a comment. Quantum influences have been suggested as interface. 15: TL;DR: brain/CNS programming is irrelevant to rational conduct, it is confusing an in the loop i/o controller with the supervisory mind. >> would be useless to anyone who doesn’t share his programming>> 16: Programming is blind, GIGO-limited and inherently dynamic-stochastic, as opposed to rationally, responsibly, significantly free. Programs work because someone has done an adequate design and debugging job, they have no inherent reliability. >>, unless he could demonstrate some benefit that appeals to others even if they do not perceive such a self-evident truth. >> 17: Knocking over a strawman, distractive from the true issue on the table. 18: Distractive, insistently, after many opportunities to address the substantial matter and not a few specific correctives. 19: Persistence in such is diagnostic of crooked yardsticks being used to try to dismiss the message of a plumb line: not true [straight], not upright. KF kairosfocus
KM, you, unsurprisingly, continued to . . . deny. In so doing, you claimed that a certain state of affairs is the case: "I have no natural duty to other humans" and "Nothing you or brother Cicero wrote demonstrates otherwise." Subtext one: it is the truth that X, and you have a duty to said truth. Subtext two: I, Cicero and others have duties to warrant and to right reason, which of course extends to you as a fellow human being. As to "I don’t have any duties at all, except to the ones I willfully obligate myself to," so soon as you seek to gain advantage of civil society, even this online forum, you have consented to lawful limits relative to the anarchic state of nature, as Webster summarised in 1828, echoing Locke et al. So, you have only managed yet again to show the inescapable authority of first duties of reason, further illustrating that they are first principles that pervade reason and govern it. Further, your appeal to the will indicates resistance to the self evidence that your own arguments yet again exemplify. It would be amusing, if it were not sad. KF kairosfocus
Subjective morality exists.
You can't spot about morality that is subjective unless you have the standard/norm to compare to. That standard is called objective morality. :) When you say subjective x exists you admit objective x exist . Sandy
Vivid, have a good rest Karen McMannus
KM Gotta get some sleep. I am enjoying our conversation and will get back to you tomorrow when I can ,thanks for being so courteous. Vivid vividbleau
Vivid: You exist objectively, your consciousness is part of you. I don’t have to perceive your consciousness in order for it to exist. Yes, but I don't think you're using the term "objective" properly in this context. My consciousness is not at all objective, by definition. It is subjective. Just like my subjective morality. But they both have ontologies. Which is why the unicorn reference is irrelevant. People who believe in subjective morality do think it's real. Subjectively real in each persons' mind. That's a real ontology. Do Zombies have ontological existence? Physically, yes. But "their consciousness" would have no ontological existence since Zombies don't possess consciousness. My viewpoint doesn’t matter. True. But the point is, just because subjective morality is, well, subjective, doesn't mean it has no ontology. It exists within each individual's mind... subjectively. Karen McMannus
KM “Yeah, but you said something that doesn’t exist objectively has no ontology. My consciousness does not exist objectively.You can’t perceive it.” You exist objectively, your consciousness is part of you. I don’t have to perceive your consciousness in order for it to exist. “ I could be a zombie for all you know” Do Zombies have ontological existence? I would say you can’t be a Zombie, you could be a bot though but I don’t think so. . “My consciousness is entirely subjective (by definition.) Therefore no ontology from your viewpoint” My viewpoint doesn’t matter. Vivid vividbleau
KF: Deny all you want, the more you deny, the more you manage to show the inescapability of said first duties, I have no natural duty to other humans. Nothing you or brother Cicero wrote demonstrates otherwise. I don't have any duties at all, except to the ones I willfully obligate myself to. And those are always subject to amendment. What I have are preferences, will and some measure of power. Even if the Classical God exists and he demands that we "love your neighbors as yourselves", that's far more than a mere "duty." That's a threat with consequences and an appeal to preference. Karen McMannus
Paige “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander” You made a claim,I asked a question about your claim., you appealed to ignorance, I challenged your position with facts , you have yet to substantiate your position but you want to go to another unrelated topic. Somehow that’s sauce and gander Weird Vivid vividbleau
Vivid: There is no “for you” regarding ontology. The ontological existence or lack of its ontological existence is not dependent on me Yeah, but you said something that doesn't exist objectively has no ontology. My consciousness does not exist objectively. You can't perceive it. I could be a zombie for all you know. My consciousness is entirely subjective (by definition.) Therefore no ontology from your viewpoint? Karen McMannus
VB
I will not be sidetracked , I am not going down a rabbit trail until we finish the trail we are on.
What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. paige
KM “So then, since my consciousness does not objectively exist for you, my consciousness has no ontology?” There is no “for you” regarding ontology. The ontological existence or lack of its ontological existence is not dependent on me “Subjective morality exists.” WJM expressed my thoughts about this and he is a much more articulate person than I. “Absent such an ontology, it doesn’t make sense to call behavior “immoral,” even my own. You might say that we can have our own subjective moralities …. but what are we referring to when we use the word morality in such a context, absent an ontology that provides for objective, universal morality? IMO, the only thing we can be referring to is, ultimately, individual preferences. I can say, “I personally do not enjoy or prefer to do what Bob is doing,” or “what Bob is doing is making me upset,” but I cannot say “what Bob is doing is morally wrong.” I can exercise my free will and personal might to try and stop Bob from doing what he is doing, but it cannot be from any sense of moral authority or meaningful “right and wrong.” Vivid vividbleau
kairosfocus, please do a terse sentence-by-sentence retort on what I wrote in @1143. Thanks. Your primary error is that you take the nature of humans, what they do, how they act, what they want, how they feel, and consensus, as a basis for an objective standard of morality with "warrants" and "duties." From is to ought. Nothing you or anyone else has ever written has made that leap. If it's really true, you should be able to demonstrate it with a dozen bullet points instead of dense and largely undecipherable word salad. Something like... 1. Humans have certain feelings and desires. 2. Humans have pleasure and pain and everything in between. 3. Humans generally want to maximize their pleasure and minimize their pain. 4. Humans generally want that for others are well as themselves. 5. Therefore we ought to come up with a system that achieves this efficiently. Now, that bullet list does not actually achieve the leap from is to ought. Feel free to modify it so that it does. Karen McMannus
vividbleau: If something does not exist objectively it does not exist ( has no ontology). So then, since my consciousness does not objectively exist for you, my consciousness has no ontology? If objective morality does not exist then all this talk about morality is nonsense. Subjective morality exists. Just like subjective consciousness (presumably) exists. That something is subjectively real does not make it ontology-free. We might as well be discussing tooth fairies or unicorns. Tooth fairies and unicorns subjectively exist in peoples' imaginations and in cartoons etc. They are not ontology-free. At least the commentators that believe objective morality exists are engaging in discourse about something that ( they believe)actually exists. The rest of you are discoursing about unicorns and tooth faries.” Umm, no. Let me fix it for you: the commentators that believe objective morality exists are engaging in discourse about something that (they believe)actually exists. The rest that believe subjective morality exists are likewise engaging in discourse about something that (they believe)actually exists. Both types of moralities are conceivably real, but their ontologies differ. And it is not a contradiction that both types could actually be operating within humans. Karen McMannus
Paige “VB, most Holocaust deniers honestly do not believe the facts of the Holocaust. That is ignorance. It might better be called willful ignorance, but it is still ignorance” I have already demonstrated that they are not ignorant of the facts yet you keep saying that they are ignorant with a qualifier, they are now just HONESTLY WILLFULLY Ignorant. How in the heck can someone be honestly willfully ignorant? How can one be honestly willfully ignorant without knowing what they are honestly willfully being ignorant about? Sheesh “Let me ask you, do you agree with our Canadian friends that Holocaust denial should be a criminal offence?” I will not be sidetracked , I am not going down a rabbit trail until we finish the trail we are on. Vivid vividbleau
KM [attn SB, WJM et al], you are manifestly in denial of my explicitly laid out stages of reasoning on the matter. Thus, in your insistence that I started with ontological commitment on this matter sets up a strawman. And, so rhetorically conveniently, both implies that I am begging the question and suggests that at best my reports of thought and development of thought are delusional. For the record, none of the made up picture is true, and indeed you show disrespect for truth and fairness, which unsurprisingly are among the first duties of responsible reason. My actual process is to have noticed a key introductory passage in De Legibus some years ago, with several striking remarks. Cicero was a Stoic thinker and a pagan, writing c 50 BC, so the principles he highlighted are already trans-worldview. Then I noticed i/l/o a pattern of thought in Epictetus [another pagan, c 180 AD], inescapability even for would be objectors . . . who expect general implicit awareness of said duties, just to gain traction for their arguments. Indeed, you are trying to imply violation of right reason and truthfulness on my part. In short, your latest arguments provide further observable evidence. This inescapability is a signature of self-evident first truths; they are antecedent to our acts of rationality, they come . . . F. I. R. S. T. Ask yourself, why it is that you are trying so hard to show my argument unwarranted, other than because you too implicitly recognise that knowledge and truth claims SHOULD have warrant. In short, there, again, lies the subtext, an implicit appeal to generally understood first duties of reason. Where, it is manifest that a significantly free self-moved creature is free to do what s/he ought not. That is is can easily enough diverge from ought. We struggle to consistently do the known right, even when we wish to do it. Too often, we are ill-willed and do not even desire to do the right. That does not remove the duty, and many discipline themselves towards virtue despite cravings for vice or whatever. That I have to explicitly spell this out saddens me on the state of general knowledge and want of common good sense in today's world. My explicit reasoning follows from such considerations. It is, inescapable, even for objectors, so inescapably true, so self evident. The ontological import follows, after my primary context, this is evidence of built in law coeval with our rational animality. Animality from Plato [a pagan philosopher] is about being significantly free and self moved, without which we are not free enough to be genuinely rational. Mere computational, GIGO-limited substrates are programmed machines, they are neither self-moved nor rational. In this context, it is reasonable to notice that we therefore are part of a world with morally governed creatures in it. Contingent, rational, responsible, significantly free beings if you will. Especially if you find the word creature, offensive. That world, further is contingent in itself, it is not self explanatory. You were already present to know that a world with a temporal-causal, thermodynamically constrained succession of finite stages [years, for convenience], cannot have completed a transfinite past succession of stages, so is not a good candidate to be self-explanatory. Further, utter non-being has no causal powers and were there ever such that would forever obtain, there would be no world. Similarly, circular, retro-causation is another appeal to a world from utter non-being. We are forced to recognise that if a world now is, something always was, what I have called a world root. Further, on logic of being that root is part of the fabric for any actual or possible world, i.e. it is a necessary being. Such logic of being, thus far, runs on an independent train of thought hammered out here at UD over several years. Much of that turned on the legitimacy of R* and how it turns out to be a better model of the intuitive number line than R. From the infinitesimal cloud around 0, *0* much follows once we see that 1/h --> H. This allowed us to more clearly see what a trans finite traverse entails, whether explicit or implicit by way of ellipses. It is in that context of finitely remote causally adequate necessary being reality root that I pondered Hume's guillotine from the context of explaining a world with morally governed creatures, with consciences attesting to such government. Where as there are no handy firewalls in our mindedness, were that sense -- which pervades our reasoning and arguing -- delusional, it would at once be grand, self-referential delusion that discredits rationality. The moral government is not a grand delusion. We live in a world where the root of reality needs to be adequate to bridge is and ought. Thus, answering Hume's guillotine. For if the source of worlds is both the explanation for contingent worlds and an adequate ground for duty, oughtness, we have a successful bridge across the is-ought gap. There is just one serious candidate, and I here explicitly use inference to best explanation and invite a comparative difficulties discussion (which has consistently been dodged). Namely, the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of loyalty and trust, so of the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good that accords with our evident, morally governed significantly free nature. Where, it makes sense that the good reflects the often naturally evident end for a particular entity. We can see a good pencil and a good eraser. By extension, a good rational, responsible creature. Evil then comes out as a parasite that warps, perverts, frustrates moving to or expressing such ends or nature. And so forth. Thus too, why evils are chaotic and damaging or destructive. All of that either runs in separate tracks of thought or is a matter onward from observing the inescapability of first duties so leading to how they are intelligible, can be stated as descriptions of states of affairs and are pervasive, self-evident first principles. Even objectors cannot but inadvertently imply duty to truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant, cf OP], to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc. Deny all you want, the more you deny, the more you manage to show the inescapability of said first duties, KF kairosfocus
SB, When I say "first" I mean logically first. Ontology grounds epistemology and moral conclusions. If the ontology is “programmed into me,” then it would come first, but if it is derived from an *prior observation* (such as a self-evident truth), then it would obviously come second. Self-evident truths can indeed ground ontology. 1+1=2 and "A NOT A" ground my ontology. Probably yours too. But what is a self-evident truth? Whatever it is, it can't be negated without absurdity or incoherence. If KF is making the claim that his moral intuitions are "self-evident" because the creator programmed them into his brain to see them as such, then he is special indeed, (Too bad not everyone is like that.) But his programming would be useless to anyone who doesn't share his programming, unless he could demonstrate some benefit that appeals to others even if they do not perceive such a self-evident truth. Moreover, it doesn't get one off the hook to escape what properties a self-evident truth must possess. Some people are completely of a mind that they are Napoleon. No way you can talk them out of it. They think you're crazy to refute them. But counterfactuals exist. And a negation of the claim is not absurd. If KF claims that such-and-such is a self-evident truth because of his intuition, and counterfactuals exist, or the negation of the putative "truth" is not absurd, then his claim is merely private. Karen McMannus
VB, most Holocaust deniers honestly do not believe the facts of the Holocaust. That is ignorance. It might better be called willful ignorance, but it is still ignorance. But you asked me if Holocaust denial was good or bad. Let me ask you, do you agree with some countries that Holocaust denial should be a criminal offence? paige
WJM “but what are we referring to when we use the word morality in such a context, absent an ontology that provides for objective, universal morality?” Exactly! From my post 774 , FYI I added the parenthesis. Vividbleau May 26, 2021 at 6:06 pm I guess I come at this from a different perspective than most. If something does not exist objectively it does not exist ( has no ontology). If objective morality does not exist then all this talk about morality is nonsense. We might as well be discussing tooth fairies or unicorns. At least the commentators that believe objective morality exists are engaging in discourse about something that ( they believe)actually exists. The rest of you are discoursing about unicorns and tooth faries.” Vivid vividbleau
Karen McMannus:
Now, you can argue whether a supernatural creator and/or blind nature and/or something else is the source of the moral programming of conscience, but that does not change the fact that ontology comes first.:
If the ontology is "programmed into me," then it would come first, but if it is derived from an *prior observation* (such as a self-evident truth), then it would obviously come second. StephenB
KM “because KF first holds an ontology of a supernatural creator “ How can ontology of a creator come first? Never mind I just reread your post you are referring to programming. Vivid vividbleau
Paige “It is neither. It is just ignorance.” No it’s not ignorance!!! Holocaust deniers are not ignorant about the Holocaust they deny that it happened, that it is not historical. They are completely informed about the history and deny known facts. To know about the known facts is as far away from ignorance you can get. “In contrast, the Holocaust denial movement bases its approach on the predetermined idea that the Holocaust, as understood by mainstream historiography, did not occur.[10] Sometimes referred to as "negationism", from the French term négationnisme introduced by Henry Rousso,[20] Holocaust deniers attempt to rewrite history by minimizing, denying, or simply ignoring essential facts. Koenraad Elst writes: Negationism means the denial of historical crimes against humanity. It is not a reinterpretation of known facts, BUT THE DENIAL OF KNOWN FACTS. The term negationism has gained currency as the name of a movement to deny a specific crime against humanity, the Nazi genocide on the Jews in 1941–45, also known as the Holocaust (Greek: complete burning) or the Shoah (Hebrew: disaster). Negationism is mostly identified with the effort at re-writing history in such a way that the fact of the Holocaust is omitted “wiki Try again Vivid vividbleau
SB: Our conscience informs us... The conscience informs us what it's programmed to inform us of. What is responsible for the programming? Natural forces? A supernatural creator? Both are logically possible ontologies. The "moral value" of the programming of the conscience depends on what ontology you hold as responsible for the programming. Ontology comes first. KF first holds an ontology of a supernatural creator who programmed humans brains with certain moral intuitions. He claims his morality is "self-evident", but it isn't. It's merely a conclusion of his intuitions informed by a preexisting ontology. Theists and atheists differ in their ontology, which leads them to different views of the value of any moral intuitions, and neither sets of views are incoherent or absurd. Now, you can argue whether a supernatural creator and/or blind nature and/or something else is the source of the moral programming of conscience, but that does not change the fact that ontology comes first. Karen McMannus
SB: I am pointing out that it is his intuitive knowledge of a self-evident truth that comes first and that his ontological perspective comes second. WJM:
Recognizing self-evident truths, such as the principles of logic, do not represent either an ontology or an epistemology, but rather are the necessary and inescapable tools required to build ontologies and epistemologies.
Recognizing a self evident truth is most definitely an epistemological process. Epistemology is how we know things, and if we know something by means of a self-evident truth then it is that same epistemology that provides the capacity to form an ontology. Hence, I know that murder is wrong (epistemology), therefore I conclude that we live in a moral universe (ontology).
If I said his recognition of the principles of logic or his intuition of duty relied on his ontology, that may have been a mistake on my part.
That is a good start, thank you. I also understood you to mean that KF’s claims about the existence of a morally binding natural moral law stem from his ontology, when in fact, they stem from something prior to that (logically and chronologically), namely, the recognition of a self-evident truth, which is the foundation on which he forms his ontology.
Let’s say he intuited that he has existential duties with the same force that he intuited the principles of logic, meaning he knows everyone necessarily acts on these duties, just as everyone necessarily employs logic in all they do and say.
No. You really are missing the point. He intuits that everyone knows that they *should* act on those duties, which is a long way from saying that they necessarily will act on those duties.
The problem is that these two things – duties and logic – do not have the same quality of the contrary being an absurdity. still using it. It is inescapable.
Duties and logic have the same qualities of contrast with respect to their opposites. If one knows that the moral law exists (not suspects or believes), it is just as absurd to say that it doesn’t exist as it would be to say that A equals non A. They would be equally absurd because what is known is being directly contradicted.
The “duty” aspect must be something we can choose not to do.
. Of course.
so “duties” cannot be wedded to the fundamental principles of logic; they must come into play at the point where we can misuse logic and “not do” our duty.
The laws of Logic and morality are two different things, but they work together. Our conscience informs us that the natural law exists and our intelligence informs us that the law of non-contradiction exists. So they are different to that extent. But we must apply reason’s rules to learn more about what the moral code is telling us. Hence, my conscience tells me that I should not kill another person unjustly, but reason tells me that I am permitted to defend myself against an aggressor even if means killing him. A well-formed conscience is, in large part, a product of reason,
KF’s epistemology of “warranted, credibly true knowledge” depends on and was derived from ontology. You and KF can say all you want that his or your epistemology was not derived from ontology: poppycock.
It is a fact that our epistemology is not derived from our ontology and I explained exactly how that works. If you cannot grasp the subject matter, that would be your problem. StephenB
VB
Is denying the Holocaust good or bad?
It is neither. It is just ignorance. paige
Paige “I don’t have a problem with objective truths. They can be found all around us” The existence of the Holocaust is objectively true. Is denying the Holocaust good or bad? I am not asking if the Holocaust was good or bad rather the denying the objective truth that it happened. Vivid vividbleau
Paige, morality first is about duty. Moral truths accurately describe our duties, established beyond simply perceptions though it is readily noted that sound conscience speaks. In the case of your objection that you are not satisfied that arguments here have succeeded, ironically you appealed to duties to truth, right reason and warrant (part of prudence). As has been noted using live examples such as this from you, even objections cannot but appeal to such first duties of reason. You may deny this, or may even not recognise such, but that does not change the fact of inescapable authority. Such is a signature of first principles, where the attempt to evade is instantly absurd. Here, self-defeating. Self evident, so certain. KF PS: It has been pointed out to you any number of times, that any number of self evident truths are taught, and may even be memorised. Self evidence does not mean obvious to all. A SET is observed by a sufficiently mature, experienced person, is understood and is then recognised as true and as necessarily true on being properly understood. In that context, on pain of immediate absurdity on attempted denial. PPS: If there are objective moral truths, there are also objective moral errors. Your indoctrination in tolerance as redefined by radical progressives, leads to strong negative associations when moral objectivity is raised. Properly, tolerance is willingness to live and work with those who one disagrees with, often even when it is manifest they adhere to wrong opinions. It has limits, e.g. no one advocates tolerance for murder or genocide or the like. As weaponised, it is used to mean that objection to radical progressivist agendas is to be stigmatised and ironically must not be tolerated. Whatever is set up with the latest twist of newspeak and promoted through agit prop and lawfare is suddenly what we must virtue signal our support for. The incoherence is manifest. And, I see your litany of complaints and raise you 800+ million unborn, living posterity killed under false colours of choice and reproductive rights, mounting at about a million more per week. The worst crime against humanity in history. PPPS: Ironically, it is precisely these first duties of reason that you so obviously suspect that enable sound reform towards justice. It is precisely the cultural buttresses that are being undermined which allow stabilised democratisation [recall, Athens' failure], which historically has been key to sound reform. The undermining of these buttresses will simply open the way for collapse into lawless ideological oligarchy. kairosfocus
Paige “It is my belief that these deeply held moral values are the result of early learning, repetition, reinforcement, feedback, etc, not some independent objective moral truth What don’t you get about what you believe on the matter and what I believe on the matter is irrelevant.? I think you said this very thing yourself but I don’t have time to look for it so why do you keep bringing it up? Vivid vividbleau
"What I disagree with is the existence of objective moral truths"
:) 1100 comments and some people don't understand a self defeated statement. PS: Now apply your statement on your statement
What I disagree with is the existence of objective moral truths
but "What I disagree with is the existence of objective moral truths"=is in itself an objective moral truth. Your statement would look like : What I disagree with is the existence of < "What I disagree with is the existence of objective moral truths "> :)))) Sandy
VB
Your argument is totally irrelevant yet you keep repeating your argument as if it actually is a refutation that objective truth and morality does not exist. They do not refute that objective truth and morality does not exist.
I don’t have a problem with objective truths. They can be found all around us. And I think it is objectively true that we have something we call morals. I don’t contest either of these. What I disagree with is the existence of objective moral truths. I see moral values as those behaviors that make us emotionally uncomfortable when we act on them. They are more deeply rooted than other prescribed or proscribed behaviors. I don’t have feelings of guilt when I drive 5 klicks over the speed limit, or when I tell a friend that her dress looks lovely when I don’t really think it does. But when I lied to my husband about having a drink with an old boyfriend, I felt very guilty, even though it was just a friendly drink. It is my belief that these deeply held moral values are the result of early learning, repetition, reinforcement, feedback, etc, not some independent objective moral truth. paige
Paige Your total argument that there is not objective truth boils down to “ People and cultures and history demonstrates that what people and cultures believed or currently believe change. What was once considered moral is now immoral and vice a versa That people disagree on what is moral or immoral” All those things are not in dispute but. By anyone in fact those things are objectively true are they not? Your argument is totally irrelevant yet you keep repeating your argument as if it actually is a refutation that objective truth and morality does not exist. They do not refute that objective truth and morality does not exist. Vivid. vividbleau
There are 2 kind of suffering: 1)"happy" suffering when doing a moral thing. 2)"hopeless" suffering when doing what you want (ignoring moral law). Nobody escapes suffering so just chose what kind of suffering you prefer to eat. Sandy
VB
My beliefs are either objectively true or they are not regardless of my perspective.
And I don’t disagree. Maybe there are objective moral truths. All I am saying is that the evidence I have seen, and the arguments made here, I don’t find to be compelling. Many of the arguments break down to argument from consequence. ‘If it weren’t for objective moral truths we would have unbridled selfishness, people seeking power over others for personal gain, genocides, wars, bigotry, xenophobia, human sacrifices, etc.’ Every example that is used in the defense of objective moral truths have been observed to occur repeatedly to a greater or lesser extent throughout all of human history. We burned witches because of what we claimed to be objective moral truth. We forcibly removed thousands of children from their parents to be raised as Christians because of what we claimed to be objective moral truths. We kept Africans in slavery because of what many thought to be objective moral truths. Women were denied the vote over what was thought to be objective moral truths. KF would argue that these were wrong and due to human error, not the absence of objective moral truths. But if humans throughout history continuously make these moral errors, what makes us think that we are any closer to the true objective moral truths? paige
If you want to say that it is self-evident that everyone seeks them, I wouldn’t disagree. But a self-evident goal doesn’t make it a self-evident right. I think it is self-evident that humans seek respect and companionship from others. But respect and companionship aren’t self-evident rights.
One of the more gibberish statements I have seen but you have made previous such nonsense statements. Which I also called gibberish because they were vacuous. The real question is why say such irrelevant nonsense? By the way you accidentally made some sense and my guess didn’t know it and just abrogated Joe Biden’s economic plans. Which I agree are also nonsense. jerry
Jerry
They flow from the nature of human beings. Yes, they are self evident. Everyone seeks them.
If you want to say that it is self-evident that everyone seeks them, I wouldn’t disagree. But a self-evident goal doesn’t make it a self-evident right. I think it is self-evident that humans seek respect and companionship from others. But respect and companionship aren’t self-evident rights. paige
The only fundamental self-evident truth, for me, is that I exist.
Another incredibly inane response. Do you breathe? Do you drink? Do you eat? If you do all of these three things you are acknowledging a fundamental natural law. Survival. You want to stay alive. If the answer is yes, you just admitted to a self evident moral truth. jerry
Jerry, the objections reflect ideological commitments that cannot allow objectivity much les warranted utter certainty. Of course, the current focus is to segregate objective truths regarding duty from other objective truths, neatly overlooking that our whole rational life is inescapably -- we see it even in attempted objections -- governed by first duties. As for, oh what are self evident moral truths, several have been on the table, from first principles to particular cases. It is clearly absurd to deny that it is a serious violation of duties of justice to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a child on the way home from school. It is equally absurd to implicitly appeal to first duties of reason to try to overturn such duties or evade them. But, the ideologies have been deeply entrenched. Similarly, the POINT of a SET is that it is antecedent to construction of inferential arguments much less elaboration of worldviews, so to try to rhetorically put the ontological cart before the first truths that ground our approach to reasoning is at least as absurd. However, it is a way to try to wedge in worldview commitments or ideology to make them less open to the test of plumb line first truths. KF kairosfocus
Paige Now that I better understand the nature of your question. I hope you are sitting down...regarding the sacrificing of children to achieve a good harvest. Would I view that practice as right or wrong I too don’t know. I would hope I would see it as wrong because it is However regardless of my view if I was living at that time it does not make it so!!! My beliefs are either objectively true or they are not regardless of my perspective. Viivid vividbleau
The only fundamental self-evident truth, for me, is that I exist. I am something that I observe to be the case every waking moment, that I confirm all the time I am conscious. It is at least a fact by Gould's definition in that it is "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." Moral prescriptions are not about what is but what ought to be, more specifically about how human beings ought to behave towards one another. They are neither true nor false because they are not claims about the nature of observable reality. They cannot be confirmed or disconfirmed by comparing them to what they purport to describe. Shouldn't a self-evident truth be one which is apparent to any intelligent being capable of understanding it, not just humans? We can be unanimous in regarding the rape and murder of a human child by a human adult as an act of unmitigated evil but would that necessarily true for some alien intelligence? What makes me wary of claims about self-evident truths is that sometimes it appears to be a device for insulating a claim from challenge, from the requirement for explanation and justification. Seversky
but I do t see them as self-evident truths.
They flow from the nature of human beings. Yes, they are self evident. Everyone seeks them. Your objections are vacuous. Why make such inane objections to the obvious. That’s the interesting question. jerry
Jerry
One could argue that not killing another being is not a self evident truth because someone had killed someone without justification. Hey, somebody did it so it must be ok. It’s what some people do.
And duels were tolerated well after the DOI was signed. Capital punishment is still used in a few states. The US still engages in war and seeks out and kills terrorist leaders. For something that is self-evident, we certainly justify many loopholes. Again, I think that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are laudable goals, but I do t see them as self-evident truths. paige
But are they self-evident truths?
Yes, they are self evident and moral truths. Regardless of what Jefferson did. One could argue that not killing another being is not a self evident truth because someone had killed someone without justification. Hey, somebody did it so it must be ok. It’s what some people do. jerry
WjM “If I lived in an area of the country where this pronoun stuff was going on, I’d just start referring to everyone as “it.”” I was being sarcastic obviously did a poor job of it LOL Vivid vividbleau
Jerry
So are these self evident truths both self evident and moral?
Jerry, I think you said it correctly earlier in your comment. They are goals. Laudable goals in my opinion. Sound goals on. which to base a fair and just society on. Goals that can be used to ground OUGHT. But are they self-evident truths? Given that Jefferson owned approximately 175 slaves, it is obvious he didn’t believe that these truths applied to everyone.
Similar ideas have been presented here by Kf snd others before but apparently ignored. My guess is that these will be continually ignored.
I have to admit that when KF posts very long comments with various quotes, followed by multiple F/N, as seen just above, I tend to ignore them. I do not come here to listen to lectures, as these are. I come here to have interesting discussions as I have had on several occasions with you, Vividbleu, Viola Lee, WJM and others. To be bluntly honest, I find it difficult to get past KF’s often condescending tone and motive mongering. I am sure that he may have some very good points but, frankly, they lose credibility with the way he presents them. paige
VB
Ahhh I see ok i can understand why you thought I was trying to score unwarranted rhetorical points.. As I said that was not my intent.
Not a problem. We all unintentionally misinterpret things. That is why it is important to try to clarify rather than get mad. paige
when I don’t believe that anyone has claimed that they don’t exist
Then state some self evident truths (SET)
only thing where there is disagreement over SET are the specific individual things, such as moral values and right and wrong, that KF claims are SET.
From Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
So we have three objectives for humans here, life, freedom and flourishing. When we interfere with these goals unreasonably are we committing immoral acts? When we help in achieving these goals are we committing moral acts. The two main people behind these words were Franklin and of course Jefferson. They were well thought out. So are these self evident truths both self evident and moral? Similar ideas have been presented here by Kf snd others before but apparently ignored. My guess is that these will be continually ignored. jerry
Paige “Again, that is not the question I responded “I don’t know” to. Your question was “if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong?” You were asking what my view would be about killing Jewish children if I were brought under those conditions. And, as I was not brought up under those conditions, I don’t know what my view would be on the subject.” Ahhh I see ok i can understand why you thought I was trying to score unwarranted rhetorical points.. As I said that was not my intent. Vivid vividbleau
WJM re 1051 Beautifully written!! Vivid vividbleau
VB
Your position is that perspective determines the rightness of an action.
For the individual person. It is not necessarily transferable to others. For example, from my “perspective”, same sex marriage is not wrong. I could go on and detail the reasons, but that is not relevant. There are others, for their own reasons, who believe that it is wrong. Which view prevails depends on who has the most persuasive argument, or who has the biggest hammer. This disagreement is completely independent on whether or not their is an overriding objective moral truth on the issue.
Himmlers perspective and the perspective of the Nazi culture was that they were right.
Perspectives are individual. I can accept that Himmler believed he was right. Although it is possible that he believed he was wrong but did it to curry favor with Hitler. But all you can say about Nazi culture is than there were individuals within it that believed it was right.
To say you “don’t know “ when you know their perspective and their perspective determines rightness means you do know.
Again, that is not the question I responded “I don’t know” to. Your question was “if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong?” You were asking what my view would be about killing Jewish children if I were brought under those conditions. And, as I was not brought up under those conditions, I don’t know what my view would be on the subject. Perhaps an example that hits closer to home might clarify. I personally believe that slavery is wrong. As, I am sure, you do. But, if I were raised on a plantation in the antebellum south, and my family profited heavily because of the ownership of slaves, would my antebellum self believe that slavery was wrong? Again, the only honest answer I could give would be “I don’t know”. I hope this made my view clearer. paige
Paige “But that wasn’t the question you asked, was it. Please don’t play these misrepresentation games to score rhetorical points. You are usually better than that.” Honestly the last thing I want to do is misrepresent your position and it was not my intent but I am unclear exactly where I did that. Your position is that perspective determines the rightness of an action. Himmlers perspective and the perspective of the Nazi culture was that they were right . To say you “don’t know “ when you know their perspective and their perspective determines rightness means you do know. You know they were right. So how have I misrepresented you? Vivid vividbleau
KF has spent thousands of words defending the existence of self-evident truths when I don’t believe that anyone has claimed that they don’t exist. The only thing where there is disagreement over SET are the specific individual things, such as moral values and right and wrong, that KF claims are SET. paige
Mohammadnursyamsu @1103: Thanks for providing that link. I can't say that as written, I disagree with anything there. In fact, it corresponds (so far as I've read) almost perfectly to my own "Idealism" reality theory (IRT.) I think any differences might just be semantics and different ways of conceptualizing the same thing - give, I'm just now reading some of the basics. William J Murray
VB
Vivid: If I understand you correctly perspective determines what is right or wrong.
Not quite. I think you are using the terms right and wrong as absolutes, objectively true. I am not. Perspective determines what an individual feels is right and wrong. But, as WJM correctly pointed out, this depends on how you define “perspective”. I am using it here as the sum of all the factors involved in creating our worldview.
From his perspective [Himmler’s] he was right.
Obviously we cannot know for certain what Himmler truly believed, but I think that is a fair statement.
From the culture perspective he was right.
No. Only individuals can discern what they believe is right or wrong from their perspective. I apologize if the way I have phrased things led you to believe that I believed otherwise. If enough individuals share the same conclusions of right and wrong, these values become enshrined in law. The exception would be in authoritarian regimes, where the “beloved leader” controls what gets enshrined in law.
From your own words he and the Nazi culture was right to kill Jewish children.
Again, you are extrapolating individual views of right and wrong to an objective moral truth about right and wrong. I don’t believe the latter exists. paige
SB said:
Irrelevant to the topic on the table. What matters here is the order of events.
I'm not sure that's "what matters here," but okay, let's assume it is.
In your accusations against KF, you characterize his ontological perspective as his first consideration and, therefore, the foundation for everything else that follows. That is not the case.
I'm not sure what you mean by "accusations," but okay. I don't think I said that his ontology was the foundation for everything else; I think I stated that his epistemology is derived from his ontology. If I did say that I'd have to read the context.
I am pointing out that it is his intuitive knowledge of a self-evident truth that comes first and that his ontological perspective comes second.
Recognizing self-evident truths, such as the principles of logic, do not represent either an ontology or an epistemology, but rather are the necessary and inescapable tools required to build ontologies and epistemologies.
You are, therefore, misrepresenting his position,.
Perhaps I did, I don't remember everything I said and in what context. If I said his recognition of the principles of logic or his intuition of duty relied on his ontology, that may have been a mistake on my part. I'll return to this at the end of this comment. Even so, his argument faces multiple problems I've outlined regardless of how he came to his ontological and epistemological arrangement. Let's say he intuited that he has existential duties with the same force that he intuited the principles of logic, meaning he knows everyone necessarily acts on these duties, just as everyone necessarily employs logic in all they do and say. The problem is that these two things - duties and logic - do not have the same quality of the contrary being an absurdity. One cannot even argue against without using it. IOW, I am always using logic regardless what I think or say or do even in an attempt to think or say or do otherwise. Yes, I can use misuse logic, but even in the misuse, I'm still using it. It is inescapable. But, to have equal "self-evident" force, what does it mean to "misuse" duty? Or to fail to do your duty? Is KF's argument that even when we fail in doing our duty, we are still fulfilling our duty? I don't think that's it. Or, even when we fail, still trying to do a duty? Or still acting out of a sense of duty, even when we refuse to live up to our duties? People can intuit all sorts of contradictory things. For "duty" to rise above common or trivial intuitions, what does KF offer as a means of establishing the necessity of accepting duty as a significant, meaningful self-evident truth? Even if we say we have "intuited" the first principles of logic, their necessity and inescapability can be demonstrated. KF keeps insisting this is the case, but has only attempted to make the case for the necessity and inescapability of duty by inappropriately conflating them, wedding them with the inescapable, necessary principles of logic. Also, how is something inescapable and necessary a "duty" in any meaningful sense of that word? The "duty" aspect must be something we can choose not to do, so "duties" cannot be wedded to the fundamental principles of logic; they must come into play at the point where we can misuse logic and "not do" our duty. Surely our "moral duty" is not just to "use logic as properly as possible." So these are two distinctly different, separable things, even if we use logic to ascertain how to fulfill our duty. And that is where the ontology must come in. There's just no way around it. Duty and universal morality, even if they are accepted as self-evidently true, is pure sophistry without ontological consequences. These, from my perspective, are the essential points of the argument I've been making. Here's another point I made and will reiterate. KF's epistemology of "warranted, credibly true knowledge" depends on and was derived from ontology. You and KF can say all you want that his or your epistemology was not derived from ontology: poppycock. Virtually everyone in the world grew up with same basic, assumed, unquestioned, unexamined ontology: the ontology that an objective, material-physical world existed entirely outside of mind. You and KF and I certainly did not start building any epistemology external of ontology, even if you didn't understand it as the ontological underpinnings of the epistemology you constructed. William J Murray
VB
You don’t know whether Himmler was right? Of course you do.
But that wasn’t the question you asked, was it. Please don’t play these misrepresentation games to score rhetorical points. You are usually better than that. You asked, “ So if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong?” and I said that i didn’t know. Which is the only honest answer any of us could make. Any of us growing up in that culture would have significantly different influences than we do today. The current me would hope that this hypothetical me would say that it was wrong. But given that there were many people back then who didn’t think it was wrong, more than we would expect based on current frequencies of psychopaths and sociopaths, indicates that none of us would know for sure how we would react if we grew up as they did. paige
There is a course on logic published by the Great Courses titled
An Introduction to Formal Logic
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/an-introduction-to-formal-logic In the transcript for the course, the word “truth” is used over 900 times. The word “true” is used over a thousand times. The word religion is used twice and Christianity not at all. So let’s assume truth has nothing to do with religion or Christianity. Any suggestion that it does is erroneous. Now both religion and Christianity use logic just as a nuclear engineer uses physics and tools. Conflating end use with the tool is illogical. jerry
WJM, as you should be able to see it is a tightly integrated conceptual scheme, with defined terms. There is no room for me to move, so only if you more or less exactly affirm the creationist conceptual scheme, are we in agreement. So I guess that means we don't agree. I explained the creationist conceptual scheme on the creationwiki. http://www.creationwiki.org/Creationist_Philosophy mohammadnursyamsu
WJM, while sound conscience testifies to duty, it does not create it, nor does social conditioning etc. All the usual subterfuges and ideological narratives fail even worse than the fallacies of relativism. The point is plain, you are yet again implying our duties to truth right reason etc, you cannot but imply such. That's the signature of a self-evident, inescapably authoritative first truth. Here, regarding first duties of reason. It would be amusing if it were not so sad. KF kairosfocus
Mohammadnursyamsu @ 1098, I'm not sure how much we actually agree on, but that's one of the best things I've read in weeks. I'm not exactly sure how you mean your trademark sign-off:
1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact
... but what it means to me when I read it is right on the money. William J Murray
Paige & Vivid: Vivid makes an excellent point. Unless we are referring to a universal, objective morality, it's impossible to logically assert that anyone's behavior is wrong because everyone gets to decide for themselves what is "right or wrong" for them to do. I have no means to judge the behavior of others as "wrong," even in reference to my own sense of "right and wrong" because my sense of that does not transfer to other people, just as I cannot tell other people what flavor of ice cream they prefer. I put "right and wrong" in scare quotes because those terms as used in reference to moral behavior are improper terms to use. They belong to ontologies that contain universal, objective morality, by which we have the capacity to identify the morally right or wrong behavior of anyone else. Absent such an ontology, it doesn't make sense to call behavior "immoral," even my own. You might say that we can have our own subjective moralities .... but what are we referring to when we use the word morality in such a context, absent an ontology that provides for objective, universal morality? IMO, the only thing we can be referring to is, ultimately, individual preferences. I can say, "I personally do not enjoy or prefer to do what Bob is doing," or "what Bob is doing is making me upset," but I cannot say "what Bob is doing is morally wrong." I can exercise my free will and personal might to try and stop Bob from doing what he is doing, but it cannot be from any sense of moral authority or meaningful "right and wrong." Now, one can feel it is wrong for Bob to do X, but IMO that is based on years of subconscious programming that is identifying a group or social preference as "right" or "wrong" behavior. William J Murray
Karen McClownnus Sandy, So, yeah you were there, eh? Okay, have a nice day.
:) I wasn't there but also I wasn't in your mind. Guess which is more credible? ... Sandy
I declare, Kairosfocus is an enemy of subjectivity, and therefore part of the axis of evil, of atheism, materialism, scientism, postmodernism, evolution theory etc. It is clear in my mind that atheists in general are fact obsessed people, who undermine subjectivity in general at the intellectual level. Not just undermine belief in God, but undermine all subjectivity, from love in marrige, to enjoying a good meal. The total annihilation of all subjectivity, at the intellectual level. The evidence supports this. Facebook is awash with atheists who say they can measure emotions in the brain. So they do not identify love on a subjective basis, with a chosen opinion based on feeling it. For the atheist everything is objective, and they reject the entire subjective and spiritual part of reality. That atheists still talk about affirming subjectivity, and subjective morality and such, is because they redefined the word subjectivity. Like they also redefined free will, to make it use the logic of being forced, as like a chesscomputer calculating a move in a forced way. The correct understanding of subjectivity, can be found in the underlying logic of ordinary phrases, like saying a painting is beautiful. The logic of subjectivity, is that a subjective opinion is formed with a choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice. As shown in the creationist conceptual scheme. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Ofcourse, when an atheist redefines choice in terms of it being like a chesscomputer calculating a move, then obviously also their concept of subjectivity must be bogus, because the concept of subjectivity is based on the concept of choice. The correct understanding of making a choice, is to make one of alternative futures the present, spontaneously. By spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, the opinion that the painting is beautiful, is chosen. Kairosfocus makes nothing but snide and derogatory remarks about subjectivity. He encroaches on the proper domain of subjectivity, by asserting morality is objective. He presents a unified idea of truth, without regard for the categorical distinction between matters of opinion and matters of fact, and then in this unity he makes truth objective, and pushes out subjectivity. He asserts intelligent design is fundamental to creationism, instead of that creationism is fundamental to intelligent design. Denying the fundaments of creator and creation, and instead referring to complex things like mind, consciousness. He does not profess a subjective, chosen belief in God, but instead makes belief in God a forced consequence of a philosophy about a neccessary being. All in all he is guilty of a failure to straightforwardly and unequivocally accept the validity of subjectivity, and instead generally undermines it, same as atheists do. Ofcourse, these accusations are all from the point of view of the truth of the creationist conceptual scheme. I think you should be able to see that from that point of view, this accusation against Kairosfocus and atheists in general, are perfectly reasonable. So you can appreciate sharp lines of debate being drawn. And also subjective opinions, judgements, such as about an axis of evil, being part of the debate about subjectivity. mohammadnursyamsu
Vivid said at 1070:
Within his world view I think he has said there is objective morality, I thought I read that maybe I am mistaken.
You are correct.
I agree but Paige asked the question and attributed right or wrong to sacrificing babies depends on “perspective “ I was just making sure that was not an unfair reading of his/ her / they or any of the other pronouns.
If I lived in an area of the country where this pronoun stuff was going on, I'd just start referring to everyone as "it." William J Murray
F/N: More from JCW https://www.scifiwright.com/2020/07/evidence-and-self-evidence/ >>Part of an ongoing discussion. A reader with the divinely affectionate name of Theophilus writes: I understand the difference as a matter of grammar. I’m not sure I understand the difference as a matter of logic. Perhaps I have a wrong idea of what is meant by “self-evident”? I thought it meant “cannot be denied by any rational agent.” Excellent question! Let us see if I am equal to answering it. We were discussing whether or not the statement that the Natural Law exists is the same as that statement that all men must obey it. The Natural Law is also called the Universal Moral Imperatives, or the Categorical Imperative, or the Golden Rule, that is, the body of moral imperatives all men know in their hearts must be obligatory. It is not manmade law, but it is apprehended intuitively by the reason, in so far as no one can deny such a rule applies to all rational agents are all times and under all conditions. You asked “How is “I ought to obey all universal moral principles” not self-evident? That is what “universal” means.” If I have correctly understood your question, it suffers from what is called the naturalistic fallacy: one cannot deduce an “ought” from an “is.” A statement is called self evident when that it requires no evidence aside from itself for its proof. In this sense, yes, such a statement ought not be denied by any rational agent. (It can be, but it ought not be.) The difference, as a matter of logic, is that my argument states a correct and explicit syllogism, whereas your argument an enthymeme, a syllogism whose minor premise is merely assumed without being stated, that is tacit. Moreover, your tacit assumption seems to be a circular argument, begging the question, assuming what you hope to prove. Consider the following argument: given statement (1) “If universal moral imperatives exist, then they necessarily ought to be obeyed” is true; and the statement (2) “universal moral imperatives exist” is true; therefore the statement “universal moral imperatives ought to be obeyed” is true. Statement (3) cannot be deduced from statement (2) if statement (1) is false. And in any case, nothing is correctly called self evident unless the opposite is self contradictory. “Some statements are true” is a self evident statement because the opposite statement “No statements are true” is a paradox. [--> see the patent absurdity issue?] In this case “It is not necessarily true that all men are bound to obey the universal moral imperatives” does not, without more, seem to be self contradictory, unless the phrase “universal moral imperatives” means no more and no less than what all men are bound to obey: in which case, why, yes, the statement is self evident but only at the cost of being a tautology. [--> not all tautologies are bad, sometimes a rephrasing is highly instructive] If there are universal moral imperatives, then all men would be bound to obey them, but if there are not, then not. In this case, your tacit assumption is the naturalistic fallacy, that is, the assertion that facts create moral obligations without any prior moral obligation. [--> points to the root of reality issue] I am trying to put across a subtle yet startling conclusion: that moral reasoning underpins all other forms of reasoning, and [is] logically prior to those forms. [--> recognises first duties and how they govern reason] We are moral and moralizing beings whether we know it or not, acknowledge it or not. Even to debate morality entails a moral decision, that is, whether to have an honest debate or a dishonest contest of mere rhetoric. [--> a significant observation] You and I agree that there is a pre-existing moral imperative, a duty, a command, to obey the moral imperatives of the universe. We disagree that this is self evident. I submit that it is not. [--> notice, he thinks, not self-evident] Under your argument, the universal moral maxim might simply be a description, which carries no necessary imperative weight: merely because something is against the laws of England, does not mean I am bound. I am not English. I never swore fealty to the English crown. Likewise, in a world without God, the universal moral maxim is merely a description. Just because something is against the laws of the universe, does not mean I am bound to obey. [--> mere principle without duty is without traction] The Gnostic, for example, is born against his will and without his consent, a spirit from outside the universe trapped and degraded like a butterfly in a jar, beating its wings against the glass. [--> sounds familiar?] For the Gnostic, he did not consent to the universe and did not swear fealty. Hence the mere fact, by itself, without more, proving that adultery (for example) is against the laws written on the pillar of the universe were in fact written there, imposes on the Gnostic no imperative duty to obey. [--> here we see how perspectives can warp understanding] An argument is needed to show if and why this stance is illogical. Indeed, in a world without God, I am not sure whether it is necessarily illogical or not. In any case, it is NOT self evident. There is more here than grammar.>> Someone pondering issues seriously. Actually, I would see that once neighbours exist and are of like nature, justice obtains thus due balance of rights, freedoms, duties. Self-serving exceptionalism is absurd parasitism and free loading. Yes, I have to import a serious level objector, here. And more. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, air headedness has to be sufficiently shown not merely asserted or assumed. Even then, issues may come up worth more as is emerging with self evidence. But we have reached the point of formal policy with rationale. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Webster's 1828 gives a bit more to chew on:
Self-evident SELF-EV'IDENT, adjective Evident without proof or reasoning; that produces certainty or clear conviction upon a bare presentation to the mind; as a self-evident proposition or truth. That two and three make five, is self-evident.
It even gives one of my favourite examples. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Dictionaries are equally shoddy:
self-ev·i·dent (s?lf??v??-d?nt) adj. Requiring no proof or explanation. self?-ev?i·dence n. self?-ev?i·dent·ly adv. American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
This reminds me of my experience of comparing recent and 100+ year old maps for St Andrew Jamaica. East and North of Papine (the NE Corner of greater Kingston) there is a region of hills beyond the Hope River valley that become foot hills to the Blue Mountains. What is interesting is an experience that made sense of an itch from childhood. The ring of hills was ever present but with exception of Long Mountain/Wareika Hills and Jack's Hill along which runs Skyline Drive, there seemed to be no generally known names. Yes, I would learn of Dallas Mountain, opposite the UWI Campus, but the hills, seemingly nameless, were just there. It is even hard to find a panorama that identifies the Blue Mountain peaks. Older Ordnance maps, probably created by artillerists [there was an artillery unit], fill in the gap. We have the Port Royal Mountains and the St Andrew Mountains, with identified key points. In short, knowledge can evaporate and even vanish from later official sources. We cannot tell truth or knowledge by the clock. I suspect, SET is a case in point of a keystone truth and point of knowledge we need to recover. Yes, in defence of civilisation. KF kairosfocus
F/N: A sampler:
Self Evidence 123Next James Riley 980 I *think* that a principle of logical argument is that the burden of proof is upon the proponent. When I hear "logic" assert the Principle of Identity, I say "prove it." Logic's response seems to be, it's "self-evident". That response reminds me of a frustrated parent saying "because I said so." To be more gracious, maybe logic is just saying "because we must agree on that before we go forward into argument. Otherwise, we can't even converse." Nevertheless, it leaves me feeling somewhat an imposter to continue without a proof. Indeed, I'd think that anything so grand as the "self-evident" would easily be demonstrated by abundant simpler proofs. If the King is going to tell me about his cloths, surely he could show me a sock? (Sans anecdote, which logic itself abhors).
Believe it or not this was on a philosophy forum. Did it register that just to express a statement, one has to use distinct identity, which is an inescapable first principle of reason, bringing with it non-contradiction and excluded middle? This goes to the bankruptcy of our education system if someone cannot recognise that proofs start somewhere, with axioms and that when we are not merely framing a model, we seek natural start points? (See why basic geometry might help?) Can we not recognise cases of SET, as JCW listed? What is wrong with us? KF kairosfocus
Kf, I suggested that you ignore the airheads and malcontents. It will get you nowhere trying to answer them. jerry
F/N: J C Wright on self evidence:
From time to time it is useful for sane men in an insane world to remind themselves of basic truths. The first truth is that truth is true. A statement that there is no truth, if true, is false. We know this truth is basic because without it, no question can be answered, not even the question of whether or not truth is true. Truth is a subtle and complex topic, but what we mean by the word can be said in a short sentence using words of one syllable: Truth is when one says ‘it is’, and it is as one says. The second conclusion springs immediately from the first. We know that truth is true because to say truth is untrue is illogical. A statement that truth is true is a self-evident statement, hence a true one. A statement that truth is untrue is a self-contradiction, hence false. The second truth is that logic is valid. Nothing follows from a statement that logic is invalid. By saying this, we are not attempting to convince any being who does not use reason to adopt the use of reason. The only point of the comment is to point out that whatever is undeniable is true. Even to answer the question of whether or not reasoning is valid, we must use reason. [--> See, Epictetus!] One is free to put aside reason, from time to time, I suppose: but when one does, nothing necessarily follows. A third truth is that one ought to be honest. Honesty is a virtue one ought to practice. Anyone who says otherwise is dishonest. Even to answer the question of whether or not honesty is a virtue one ought to practice, one ought to be honest. A dishonest answer to this question is not only untruthful and illogical, it is also vice. In other cases, there may be an honest difference of judgment among rational men as to whether the particular dishonesty is expedient, justified, or mitigated, but not in this case. This is the general cases that includes all others: if there is no rule against dishonesty at all, then there is no rule against dishonesty in the particular case.
It seems we need to refocus this issue. DV, later. Web search is tossing up the usual mish-mash of hyperskepticism with overtones of ruthless cynicism, and of course a fair bit of naive commentary. We have forgotten Plato, Aristotle, Socrates and co, down to Aquinas and beyond. Maybe, we need to go back to teaching an updated form of Euclidean Geometry, to fix the concept of logical elaboration on core first plausible axiomatisation? I don't know if that might help to stop the obvious rot. KF kairosfocus
KM, I have spoken to a specific point where Cicero put his finger on something solid and acknowledge his priority. I further explained that he provoked me to think i/l/o some key turns of phrase and I then realised that he was pointing to something truly fundamental. Specific acknowledgement of intellectual debt is not global endorsement, as well you know. Side-track refused. It is clear that you cannot cogently deny what your very objections implicitly appeal to, the first duties of reason. KF kairosfocus
WJM (attn KM et al), you have already been given a framework to see that self-evidence is not merely a subjective perception or idiosyncrasy tossed up by one's notions of what is real. Of course, one can try to deny that one is self-aware, conscious . . . but then, WHO is trying to doubt or deny? One might imagine that one is so programmed and controlled by one's core beliefs and early life conditioning etc that one cannot think straight . . . but then, sauce for the goose works for the gander too and self-referential incoherence discredits your own thinking. Likewise, one can deride LOI, LNC, LEM, reasonable analysis of why things are or ought etc . . . but then distinct identity is needed just to express thought in language and brings with it LNC, LEM etc, so again absurdity. The very fact that your own objections and set-aside arguments cannot but appeal to the authority of first principles and duties of reason to have rhetorical traction screams, inescapably, pervasively authoritative. So, first truths of reason and self evident as the very objector is forced to acknowledge. That's not so hard to see. The problem is in unpalatable onward import, then. However clinging to absurdities that undermine and discredit reason itself is too big a price to reject the onward import. Reconsider, please. KF kairosfocus
KM, the obvious strawman caricatures and ill-advised contempt and projections in your latest remarks speak for themselves. Fail, again. KF kairosfocus
KF: Ciceronian first duties Tell ya what, since you're so enamored with ol' Cic, go ahead start a new thread, and let's discuss DE OFFICIIS. Wuddya say? Could be fun, eh? Karen McMannus
Paige, 1079:
[Setting up a strawman "alternative" to object to:] There are objective moral absolutes but free will and error makes them so difficult to identify that civilization does the best it can to sustain itself using rules derived by subjectively derived guesstimates of what the objective moral absolutes are.
This is a classic example of misrepresenting the opposed view despite adequate evidence to do a better job. Such is generally a strong sign of crooked yardstick thinking. The point about first, self-evident duties of reason is, that they are self-evident. Indeed, they are inescapably authoritative, i.e. they are a massively obvious, low-hanging fruit case. Indeed, your own objection appeals to them, you are suggesting this as accurately describing the other case [so, to duties to truth], and you are appealing to issues of and duties to right reason, warrant, fairness and justice. Inescapable, so inescapably true first principles and duties of reason. Inescapably true so self evident. The absurdities of attempted denial or evasion are blatant. But, because of a controlling crooked yardstick commitment, you -- as a representative of a common, institutionally drummed in viewpoint -- clearly cannot bring yourself to acknowledge such readily observed facts. There is simple ignorance or error, due to want of experience, exposure or thought. There is also a secondary, ideologically driven ignorance or error driven by crooked yardsticks used to wrongly define straight, accurate and upright. Here, the obvious case is an error of relativism, as though diversity and error prove that there is no objective truth about morality. Even as, you appeal to our built-in sense of duty to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, fairness and justice etc. Even, as you continue to be part of the objections to and evasions of the massively clear test case, that it is clearly wrong to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child going home from school to satisfy one's warped pleasure. The inconsistency is clear, the strawman caricature projections are clear. We know the institutional domination of relativism and typical rationales. We know how they fail. It's even in textbooks, as we saw from Lewis Vaughn. As for, oh if you believe in moral absolutes you are a dangerous right-wing would be theocratic fascist tyrant, not one of those lurid caricatures is true. To start with, Fascism is Nietzschean superman, all-encompassing state domination driven political messianism. Mussolini was a major leader of Socialism, but was also a nationalist so he founded a heresy of Socialism, Fascism. As the very name Nazi abbreviates -- National Socialist German Worker's Party -- it is an ideology of the left, just, to the right of Stalin (who imagined himself the centre of the political universe). Similarly, the right-centre-left political spectrum is all but useless as there is no coherent description of the centre or the "extreme" right -- there is almost never a mere "right." A better, more historically justified political spectrum is in the OP, the issue is to preserve lawfulness and open up well governed liberty. For, lawless oligarchy is the default state of corrupt government. Going on, self-evident first principles and duties of reason from the outset imply that error is a reality. That's part of why there is duty to -- not inevitability of -- truth. So, in our inner thoughts and community we need fair-minded, responsible reasoned discussion led by first duties of reason. Why? Because these lead us to straighten out crooked thinking. They allow us to recognise strong vs weak forms of knowledge . . . do you not see that the OP is an argument to accept weak form knowledge as real, as something sustained by responsible reason but as also subject to updating, correction or even falsification if warrant collapses? Such recognises that responsible diversity and doubt can and do exist, but they are not cheap. They, too, are accountable before the same Ciceronian first duties. So, in community we must recognise our mutual error-proneness in a fair-minded neighbourly way. Speaking of, let us see what Moses actually taught about the Golden Rule, in that alleged evil book of bronze age sky warrior god militaristic, Christofascist theocratic tyranny:
Lev 19: 9 “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the LORD your God. 11 “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. 12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 13 “You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the LORD. 15 “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life1 of your neighbor: I am the LORD. 17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. [ESV]
Why, that's downright communitarian, commanding limits on property in the interests of the poor. It prioritises justice over class interests in court, demanding truth in testimony. Oppression is forbidden. We may responsibly differ with and frankly counsel neighbour, but must respect neighbour as being like oneself. Just as the esteemed, judicious Richard Hooker said in his remarks Locke used in his 2nd treatise on civil government. The very document that lurks behind Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, the US DoI 1776, and even Webster's 1828 definition of civil liberty in the dictionary of the young American Republic. Why, this sounds suspiciously like a natural law argument, complete with God arguing the case as a neighbour with us. Is that so hard to recognise? KF kairosfocus
KM, projecting again. You were already adequately corrected but insist on loaded strawman caricatures. Hehe, well, okay, sir, hehe. I hope you're comfy in your accommodations. (I really do.) You know you've been had. WJM pulled your OP panties down. Over and over again. And others have nailed your philosophical incoherence. To the wall. I hope you're you're doing well and comfy in your accommodations. (I really do.) And if you have children, I hope they are happy that you are comfy wherever you are, and don't have to worry about your welfare. Just relax and have a good retirement. Karen McMannus
Sandy, So, yeah you were there, eh? Okay, have a nice day. Karen McMannus
Nonsense. God waited 400 years for a tribe that did child sacrifices to reject that practice. That mean no matter of perspective humans know in the depths of the soul what is right and what is wrong, but if you go on that path even if you know that is wrong you might not be capable to return to the right path because you damaged your soul ignoring for too long your conscience's voice( that is God's voice). Sandy
Paige “From my perspective, they were wrong. “ Your perspective is not relevant, it’s their perspective that’s relevant. It is their perspective that make it right your perspective does not negate nor change that they were indeed right in what they did. Vivid vividbleau
Paige “VB, I don’t know.” You don’t know whether Himmler was right? Of course you do. Vivid: If I understand you correctly perspective determines what is right or wrong. Paige: Hasn’t that always been the case? Sometimes it works in favor of the vast majority and other times it does not. From his perspective he was right. From the culture perspective he was right. From your own words he and the Nazi culture was right to kill Jewish children. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Your worldview would require you to say they were right because perspective determines what is right, in fact in your world view there is no wrong.
From my perspective, they were wrong. From theirs, they weren’t. Many were eventually punished because the might of the allied powers made right. Just in the last century we saw greed causing a huge depression, two world wars, a Holocaust, Mass killings in Russia and China, terrorist attacks and many more events that you and I would think were wrong. If they are objectively wrong, why did they happen? And if we go back further, we see events that you and I would say were equally wrong based on our modern perspectives. As I see it, there are two possibilities; 1) There are no objective moral absolutes and civilization does the best it can to sustain itself using subjectively derived rules. 2) There are objective moral absolutes but free will and error makes them so difficult to identify that civilization does the best it can to sustain itself using rules derived by subjectively derived guesstimates of what the objective moral absolutes are. paige
VB, I don’t know. And, with respect, neither do you unless you apply your current worldview and experiences to the question. paige
Paige “So, if you grew up in a culture where they made a child sacrifice every year to ensure a good harvest, and there had been good harvests, would you think that the child sacrifices were right or wrong?” A good example of this for me was [former SS member] Oskar Groening who we interviewed for our Auschwitz series. We asked him how the Nazis could murder children and he said that the enemy wasn’t the children but the blood in the children that would grow up to be a Jew. The reason they felt justified in their acts – and Himmler explicitly said this in a speech in 1943 – was that if you just killed the adults, the children would grow up to be avengers and they would come after your own children. So if you really loved your children then you should kill their children. So if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong? Your worldview would require you to say they were right because perspective determines what is right, in fact in your world view there is no wrong. Vivid vividbleau
VB
Agreed holding to a belief that doing the right moral thing is wrong and abhorrent seems to me to be irrational.
So, if you grew up in a culture where they made a child sacrifice every year to ensure a good harvest, and there had been good harvests, would you think that the child sacrifices were right or wrong? To use a more recent, and less hypothetical, example, I grew up during a time when men having sex with other men could result in jail. When I was younger I thought that the punishment was right. I now think that the punishment was wrong and abhorrent. Who is right, the young me or the older me? paige
Paige “It may not be rational, “ Agreed holding to a belief that doing the right moral thing is wrong and abhorrent seems to me to be irrational. One would think if ones belief system leads to irrationality that would be a real red flag that my belief system is seriously flawed. Vivid vividbleau
VB
I don’t understand why you would be sad about it…
It’s really quite simple. We all believe things to be true that we wish weren’t. It may not be rational, but those desires exist in all of us. paige
“Eve also enjoyed satan’s insight.” Ooohkay Vivid vividbleau
Vividbleau I have always enjoyed his insight.
Eve also enjoyed satan's insight. Sandy
I'll try my best to accommodate the notion of objective morality, eventhough it is wrong. Since everything in the universe is created, all is expression of the spirit. And so objects in the universe may be interpreted as being subjective words (such as words denoting emotions and personal character), because subjective words must by logic, likewise be chosen, in their use. After all, in the beginning was the word, and the science of signs, semiology, makes it way to explain everything including physics. Also information theory is on it's way to explain everything. Generally it means that the material world would be explained in terms of communication. As like also body language. Some facial expressions, they are basically similar to words. The corners of the mouth upwards is basically similar to the word happiness. So then there is a continuance from subjective words, to body language, all the way down to quantum physics. So then some events speak to us, and the event itself as like consists of the word evil. And then we might say it is objectively evil. It is self-evidently evil. However, ofcourse, subjective words are in reference to the spirit that decides. So that something is objectively evil, does not neccessarily mean that much. As like a baby crying over growing pains or something, like it's the end of the world, no it's not really so bad. mohammadnursyamsu
Sandy “Karen McClownnus and WJM could be the same person. They have the same iq. Imagine that Karen McClownnus asked me where WJM talked about truth when previously WJM said that there is no objective morality” Honestly I don’t understand this recent animus against WJM . I have been a participant on this site since it started and WJM has been a significant contributor and I have always enjoyed his insight. Within his world view I think he has said there is objective morality, I thought I read that maybe I am mistaken. Vivid vividbleau
Paige “Sadly, current cultures and historical cultures simply do not support this” I don’t understand why you would be sad about it since no current culture or historical culture has ever done anything wrong no matter how abhorrent their actions may seem to you from your perspective. Then again they can’t be abhorrent either because they are always doing the right thing unless your position is that doing the right moral thing is wrong and abhorrent. Crazy!! Vivid vividbleau
at what point should I begin to ignore your comments?
Anytime you wish. I assume most of my comments are ignored. Except for trying to improve the effectiveness of your comments I mainly write to clarify my own thoughts and to record new information and interesting insights. jerry
StephenB
Karen Mcmannus: …..most people, who have an awareness of what Heinrich Himmler managed to pull of with the Nazi death camps, come to the conclusion he was a seriously evil dude.
I thought that you didn’t believe in the existence of good and evil. How can Himmier be an “evil dude” if there is no such thing as evil.
Karen McClownnus and WJM could be the same person. They have the same iq. Imagine that Karen McClownnus asked me where WJM talked about truth when previously WJM said that there is no objective morality. You can't reason with 3 year olds. Sandy
WJM:
"Well, if all it takes to establish a self-evident truth is “intuition,” then here’s the only response necessary: “I intuit otherwise.”
Irrelevant to the topic on the table. What matters here is the order of events. In your accusations against KF, you characterize his ontological perspective as his first consideration and, therefore, the foundation for everything else that follows. That is not the case. I am pointing out that it is his intuitive knowledge of a self-evident truth that comes first and that his ontological perspective comes second,. You are, therefore, misrepresenting his position,. StephenB
Karen Mcmannus:
.....most people, who have an awareness of what Heinrich Himmler managed to pull of with the Nazi death camps, come to the conclusion he was a seriously evil dude.
I thought that you didn't believe in the existence of good and evil. How can Himmier be an "evil dude" if there is no such thing as evil.
Context matters. Even when it comes to torturing babies for fun.
No, it doesn't. In the case of an intrinsically evil act, circumstances and conditions do not matter at all. It is the nature of the act and the perverse intent behind it that define it.
...Let’s do a little thought experiment. Say that as part of his punishment, God consigned Himmler to reincarnate many times, once for each of the lives he murdered in the death camps, and as a baby during those “incarnations of punishment”, he is to be born to parents that have fun torturing him while he is a baby. (The parents need not know anything about his past as the architect of the Nazi death camps.) Is the torturing of him during his “incarnations of punishment” self-evidently evil?
Yes. Conditions or circumstances do not change the nature of an intrinsically evil act.
You can cry “absurdity” all you want, but the story is not implausible.
Your story is implausible on several levels. I'll just pick the low hanging fruit. First, you have not explained why God should punish someone for doing something that, in your judgment, is not necessarily an evil act. Second, the Christian God (which is the one you seem to disapprove of) does not reincarnate individuals. As it says in Scripture, "It is appointed for men once to die and after this the judgment." StephenB
Paige and VB, including this perspective, of one certain Mr Schicklegruber, a somewhat modestly talented amateur painter?
Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level produces a medium between the level of the two parents . . . Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a higher breeding of all life . . . The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings would be unthinkable. The consequence of this racial purity, universally valid in Nature, is not only the sharp outward delimitation of the various races, but their uniform character in themselves. The fox is always a fox, the goose a goose, the tiger a tiger, etc., and the difference can lie at most in the varying measure of force, strength, intelligence, dexterity, endurance, etc., of the individual specimens. But you will never find a fox who in his inner attitude might, for example, show humanitarian tendencies toward geese, as similarly there is no cat with a friendly inclination toward mice . . . . In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. [That is, Darwinian sexual selection.] And struggle is always a means for improving a species’ health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development. If the process were different, all further and higher development would cease and the opposite would occur. For, since the inferior always predominates numerically over the best [NB: this is a theme in Darwin's discussion of the Irish, the Scots and the English in Descent], if both had the same possibility of preserving life and propagating, the inferior would multiply so much more rapidly that in the end the best would inevitably be driven into the background, unless a correction of this state of affairs were undertaken. Nature does just this by subjecting the weaker part to such severe living conditions that by them alone the number is limited, and by not permitting the remainder to increase promiscuously, but making a new and ruthless choice according to strength and health . . .
KF kairosfocus
VB
If I understand you correctly perspective determines what is right or wrong.
Hasn’t that always been the case? Sometimes it works in favor of the vast majority and other times it does not. I would love there to be actions that are clearly and unambiguously always right or wrong. Sadly, current cultures and historical cultures simply do not support this. paige
WJM “For all we know, both the mother and the child considered it a great honor to be sacrificed for the good of the tribe. “ Perspective “Do we know what their afterlife status was supposed to entail for being sacrificed?” Perspective “ Is sacrificing yourself for God, or being willing to put your family in mortal danger by doing the right thing (according to your beliefs) considered “wrong” by believers in objective, universal morality here?” The babies in Paige’s example did not sacrifice themselves. PS I have great respect for KF, SB, BA, and you as well but don’t assume that I agree withKF or SB on the topics being discussed on this thread. I come to my conclusions from a different angle and have disagreements with all of you. Vivid vividbleau
WJM “To ask the question “Is it right or wrong to …” presupposes an objective and universal “right and wrong” “ I agree but Paige asked the question and attributed right or wrong to sacrificing babies depends on “perspective “ I was just making sure that was not an unfair reading of his/ her / they or any of the other pronouns. Vivid vividbleau
For all we know, both the mother and the child considered it a great honor to be sacrificed for the good of the tribe. Do we know what their afterlife status was supposed to entail for being sacrificed? Is sacrificing yourself for God, or being willing to put your family in mortal danger by doing the right thing (according to your beliefs) considered "wrong" by believers in objective, universal morality here? William J Murray
Vivid said:
If I understand you correctly perspective determines what is right or wrong.
Lots of things factor in to how any person feels or reacts to such situations - the subconscious, psychology, beliefs, their personal status in the situation, mood, etc. If we lump all of those things up into "perspective," I think it is generally safe to say that one's perspective determines how one reacts/feels to/about the situation. The concept of moral "wrong" or "right" is a different kind of assessment altogether. To ask the question "Is it right or wrong to ..." presupposes an objective and universal "right and wrong" situation. This appears to be a question from a categorical error because we haven't established or agreed that such an objective or universal situation exists. It's a question that can only be properly asked from an ontology where objective and universal rights and wrongs exist. William J Murray
KM, projecting again. You were already adequately corrected but insist on loaded strawman caricatures. That speaks volumes. KF kairosfocus
Paige From modern western perspective, I think that 99.999% of us would say that it is wrong. From the perspective of the mothers of the children sacrificed, it is my guess that they would think “it was wrong. But, in the previous year when it was another child being sacrificed, would they have held the same belief?” If I understand you correctly perspective determines what is right or wrong. Vivid vividbleau
VB
What say you?
From modern western perspective, I think that 99.999% of us would say that it is wrong. From the perspective of the mothers of the children sacrificed, it is my guess that they would think it was wrong. But, in the previous year when it was another child being sacrificed, would they have held the same belief? I don’t think any of us would know. But what if the God they made the sacrifices to was real and would make the crops fail every year there was not a sacrifice, would the sacrifices be wrong. It’s the old trolley at the switch dilemma. paige
Jerry: You personally are the focus. When KF personally attacks other peoples' motives and character, he opens the door to consider what motives might lie behind his emotional, un-philosophical and evasive tirades. Karen McMannus
WJM: all of this depends on adopting KF’s ontology and epistemology because they cannot be argued successfully external of that set of conditions and rules. And his own theology that flows from it (or vice versa), which includes the torturing of souls endlessly. He can't even get himself to squarely deal with a thought experiment regarding Heinrich Himmler's punishment as an abused reincarnated baby. I think I know why. Inconsistency with his theology. And he accuses others of "evading." Karen McMannus
KF: KM, further evasion by projection on your part What am I evading? You apparently don't bother to carefully read and consider what I write, or are incapable of understanding what I write, particularly @1013, where I'm clear about my own personal revulsion about about baby torture for fun in the real world, juxtaposed with a thought experiment regarding the punishment of Himmler. You apparently can't handle a thought experient.... about Himmler. Astonishing, really. Nothing else so say, except please re-read what I wrote and carefully consider it, and reconsider your own irrational and non-philosophical response. Karen McMannus
Paige “For example, numerous cultures around the world would sacrifice children because they believed it was necessary for a good harvest. Was this right or wrong? “ What say you? Vivid vividbleau
KF @1047: Although we disagree on many subjects, I would like to say this. As confidently as I expect the sun to come up tomorrow, regardless of how events unfold on this Earth, I am confident that you, SB and BA77 and several others here will end up in heaven (or on a new Earth paradise, depending on your particular Christian beliefs.) And for that, I am genuinely happy and joyful for you. From my perspective, you're all good, decent people doing your very best to do what you consider to be right. I try to never lose sight of that in these discussions, even though I sometimes fail in that effort. That doesn't mean I won't continue to make arguments, but I will understand if you and others choose not to respond :) It's nothing personal - on my end, anyway. William J Murray
Jerry, I just made a policy statement, duly initialled and with a rationale in brief. KF kairosfocus
Paige, why is it my implied DUTY to "demonstrate" self evident -- so inherently not demonstrable (as antecedent to demonstration) -- first duties of reason? Why do you imagine that you have a RIGHT to freedom to dismiss such, absent demonstration? Why do you think that the fact that error-prone morally struggling and too often ill-willed creatures need moral training somehow obviates the self-evident state of first duties? Do you imagine that the times tables or addition tables (which require similar training) lose their certainty as truth because we have to be diligent to adequately learn them? Do you not see the incoherence and factual failures of such an argument as you just made? Why did you ever imagine such could be persuasive or even close to being correct? What does this indicate about crooked yardsticks vs plumb lines? KF kairosfocus
At this point it is more than adequately warranted that those who balk at or reject or evade the Ciceronian first duties of reason, thereby show themselves to be unreasonable, irresponsible and leave open the door to lawless nihilism.
Most definitely yes! But you should have stopped here. The rest is unnecessary and gets in the way. Better if it was even shorter.
It is more than adequately warranted that those who balk at/reject/evade the duties of reason, show themselves to be unreasonable and irresponsible. This inevitably leads to nihilism.
They obviously don't believe anything they say. They couldn't and survive for very long. Which of them would say to their children, that they didn't mind if someone tortured their grandchildren? That would be the last time they would ever see either. jerry
NOTICE At this point it is more than adequately warranted that those who balk at or reject or evade the Ciceronian first duties of reason, thereby show themselves to be unreasonable, irresponsible and leave open the door to lawless nihilism. That is a painful conclusion to have to draw, but unfortunately it is well warranted and if adequate cases are required, kindly observe not only that kidnapped, sexually tortured and murdered child destroyed for someone's sick pleasure but also the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, 800+ millions and mounting up at about another milion per week. Easily, the all time worst crime against humanity ever, and it has happened over this past generation. GEM of TKI >>>>>> For reference:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable . . . first duties of reason: "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,
1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.
Likewise, we observe again, that objectors to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction,while also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are first principles of rational, responsible, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
kairosfocus
I believe that there are self-evident truths, but KF’s assertion that they apply to right and wrong has simply not been demonstrated. For example, numerous cultures around the world would sacrifice children because they believed it was necessary for a good harvest. Was this right or wrong? Certainly this is an example of kidnapping, torturing and killing a child for your pleasure. From the knowledge we have today about weather and agriculture we know that these sacrifices had no impact on the harvest so we would conclude that the purpose for the sacrifices was based on a false premise, much like many of KF’s assertions. Obviously it wasn’t self-evidently true that it was wrong to kidnap, torture and kill a child for pleasure. Cannibalism is another act that repulses most people. Yet it has been practiced in several cultures. Is it self-evidently true that cannibalism is wrong? What about lying, cheating, stealing, hitting? Modern society holds these as wrong behaviors. But we have to teach this to our children. paige
Paige, cognitive dissonanceis well established psychology and more to the point the associated pattern of projection to the rejected other is a well known phenomenon of rhetoric and agit prop. Such are clearly and consistently demonstrated, especially when the truth is, you are still refusing to recognise that it is simply and irretrievably, inexcusably wrong to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child on the way hope from school for one's sick pleasure. That you balk at such a case as is manifest above more than warrants the analysis made above. It's over. KF kairosfocus
So what if I commit evil and violate justice and the rights of others. So what?
For most of history in all societies that person would be destroyed. So my guess is that you are either one of the extremely small minority that doesn't care about being destroyed or you are lying. That is the "what" in "So what." Even today, there are no societies that would tolerate such behavior without severe consequences. But we all know you don't believe what you say. jerry
KF said:
WJM, can you not see that, first, your own attempted rebuttal is pervaded with implicit appeals to Ciceronian first duties?
Mind reading. Your inference is not my implication.
Secondly, that the wrongfulness and the perversity involved in the kidnapping, sexual torture and murder of a young child for sick pleasure are not in doubt, our being willing to respond appropriately to such blatant wrong is what is under test.
What is dong the testing? What will be the results of passing or failing of the test? Without ontological commitments, this is again pure sophistry.
The result is frankly worrying, given the moral freightedness of ever so many of the challenges facing our civilisation.
It may worry you because of your ontology. It doesn't worry me in the slightest.
Moral numbness or inversion are not good signs.
Depends on the outcomes the individual prefers.
With 800+ million victims of the abortion holocaust as exhibit A. KF
I mean, if you consider death a big deal, okay. I do not. BTW, what is the existential result of abortion for the baby, under your ontological perspective? What is the final dispensation of those aborted souls? Heaven or hell? William J Murray
KF said:
WJM, you know better,
More mind reading.
you already have before you what a self-evident truth is and why it is not a matter of subjective perception or opinion.
I know what a self-evident truth is. Existential duty and morality are not self-evident truths because they entirely rely on a specific ontology that is itself not self-evident. William J Murray
WJM
Add “mind-reading” and “motivation mongering” to the list of bad arguments KF is engaging in to try to support his worldview.
Maybe he does it because he has a warped conscience. :) paige
Paige, you go to incidentals and side issues. The matter-- right there in the headline to OP -- is not imposition but warrant and it is clear that you find it hard to simply, directly acknowledge that it is manifestly true that it is utterly unjust so wrong that for pleasure someone would and did kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child on the way home from school. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
MNY, the fact is, we undeniably recognise this case as manifest evil that violates justice thus rights and duties.
Here's your insurmountable problem, KF. Let's just agree arguendo what you say here is true. So what? So what if I commit evil and violate justice and the rights of others. So what? Without an ontologically existent arbiter of such things, and the ontological presence of an existentially inescapable reward/penalty system, all of this is pure sophistry. Morality, justice, rights, duties etc. are not self-evident because they are all utterly without existential value absent an ontology that gives them their value. They depend entirely on your ontology. Unless you can demonstrate that your ontology is self-evident, meaning that any other ontology is logically absurd, your argument fails. William J Murray
VB
What are laws Paige under penalty if not an imposition of someone’s world view?
That’s exactly what laws are. It is where these worldviews originate that is being debated.
Do you think we should have laws with penal power against discrimination or denial of equal opportunity and equal rights ?
Yes. And we do. And they are enforced. But there is a fine line between legally punishing someone for their actions and legally punishing someone for their speech. For example, we shouldn’t legally punish someone for advocating for discrimination as long as they are not inciting violence. However, that does not mean that this sort of speech is immune from consequence.
Do you even know or understand why the framers of the Declaration of Independence use the term “self evident” that all men are created equal.
Yes. But the framers of the constitution were just men, as fallible as you or I. Personally, I think we do them a disservice by raising them to a status that I think even they would disagree with.
You are doing the exact thing you are accusing KF of doing but you seem to be oblivious to it.
No. I am very blivous to it. :)
None of us are exempt from world-views, none of us are exempt from wanting to impose our world views and that includes you.
That has been my argument all along. I think we are agreeing on everything except, possibly, the origin of our worldviews. paige
Jerry, at what point should I begin to ignore your comments? KF kairosfocus
WJM, you know better, you already have before you what a self-evident truth is and why it is not a matter of subjective perception or opinion. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
WJM, I intuit otherwise is tantamount to clinging to absurdity when we deal with SET’s antecedent to constructing ontologies.
If intuition is the basis of your logic, ontology and epistemology, then you don't have an argument, because I can just intuit otherwise and have just as substantive a basis as you.
As a simple case, clustering two and three fingers then joining as a five does not depend on worldviews.
Is that intuition counting and adding those fingers?
That error exists is undeniable, and so certainly warranted, knowable, cross-worldviews accessible truth exists
You keep repeating this as if anyone here has ever disagreed.
and shatters any worldview pivoting on relativism, subjectivism, emotivism etc.
Or intuition.
Similarly, just to communicate we rely on law of identity and its corollaries, LNC and LEM. That’s the heart of logic, logic is not a matter of private perceptions or notions.
Again, you keep repeating this as if anyone here has disagreed.
Similarly, the binding force of first principles of right reason illustrates the inescapability of first duties of reason.
No, they do not. You do not get your duties for free by just duct-taping them to inescapable logical principles.
We are duty bound to be truthful, reasonable, responsible etc,
Not without an ontology that provides for them and gives them value.
and your own objections repeatedly inescapably implicitly appeal to said Ciceronian first duties. It would be amusing, if it were not so sad. KF
No, they do not. My objections are in the form of (1) inescapable logical formatting required for any communication or thought at all, and (2) my personal decision to format my arguments in the most logical, charitable, and civil way I can. You have not established the duties you refer to, and they cannot be established by duct-taping them onto inescapable logical behaviors and personal choices and asserting that this is why **I** do what I do. William J Murray
we need to end it.
Yes
And the signs are that this is moving to end game.
You got to be kidding after close to 10 thousand comments on the various threads. The way to end it is to ignore the trolls.
notice the short response just now
Probably more effective than 99.99% of your comments which few read. Better even
we undeniably recognize this as immoral. It violates everyone’s rights and thus, a duty.
jerry
Jerry, there is a place to grind down the arguments that promote error. We did not pick the fight, we need to end it. And the signs are that this is moving to end game. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, notice the short response just now. KF kairosfocus
there is a difference between short rhetorical quips and the need for showing a substantial point.
You still don’t get it. The results will be the same. Read the comment by AnimatedDust https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/frank-turek-looks-at-scientism-of-the-gaps/#comment-731920 Says it all. Short and to the point. Aside: another story from advertising. A man heard a long and eloquent speech about the enemy and commented,
“What a great speech.”
At another time a man heard a short speech about the same enemy and his reaction was
Let us March on Carthage
Which was the better speech? jerry
MNY, the fact is, we undeniably recognise this case as manifest evil that violates justice thus rights and duties. That is key. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, there is a difference between short rhetorical quips and the need for showing a substantial point. There are ever so many signs that the problems are not those of mere style of one individual. For example the similar reaction to SB is a reaction to someone with advanced training and experience in both communication and philosophy. We are dealing with the influence of crooked yardsticks here, and that is not going to be recognised or acknowledged easily. This thread is a battle of attrition, but battles of maneuver come into effect because someone has paid the price to attrit. Patton, in 1944 could move as he did across France because Russians, dying by the millions, ground down the war fighting capability of the German Army and because air crew dying by the tens of thousands ground down the Luftwaffe and forced diversion of manufacturing capability of the 88 mm family of guns from the E Front to the defence of German industry and cities. Think of what the 88's did in France at Arras in 1940, in the ME from 1941 on, and in Russia when the T34 and KV1 emerged as technological surprises. Multiply the numbers available by tens of thousands including in a lot more Tiger Tanks and tank destroyers. Similarly, it took Coral Sea, Midway and Guadalcanal as well as New Guinea [with China there too] to grind down Japanese forces until island bypass operations could move across the Pacific. Likewise BTW, with the current grinding down of the McFaul colour revolution push in the US, unfortunately, you also face a blue ocean breakout. KF PS: To further illustrate the point, the debates on the merits of the design inference in and around UD are over, there is no credible counter argument to the design inference on reliable sign. That was in some ways an even more prolonged campaign. kairosfocus
I think the torturing and killing the child for pleasure example is misleading, because the torture already imnplicitly carries a judgement of evil. So then it becomes like, is doing something bad, bad? If we separate the physics of what happened, from the judgement of what is in the souls, then surely it is possible in principle, to make an exhaustive, accurate, 1 to 1 corresponding model of all the physics involved with it. That is the real objectivity. At no point would there be an "error" shown in the physics, because if the logic doesn't work, then it couldn't have happened. It can never happen in physics that 1+1=3. So then we have the model of what occurred, and then we make the judgement on what happened. The judgement is made by feeling what it was that made all the decisions involved, turn out the way they did. Logic dictates, that one can only express what this was, with a chosen opinion. So then some particular organization of decisionmaking, in choosing this judgement, may invariably result in a judgement that it is evil. And this might be construed as saying it is self-evidently evil, or objectively evil, altough ofcourse it is all subjective. It is obviously a secondary definition for the word objective, completely different from the definition of the word objective used for the physics. And it is lying to imply they are the same. The word evil, is just some pathetic word, which does nothing much to express what was actually behind the decisions that were made. Words fail, and why bother with expressing it. mohammadnursyamsu
WJM, can you not see that, first, your own attempted rebuttal is pervaded with implicit appeals to Ciceronian first duties? Secondly, that the wrongfulness and the perversity involved in the kidnapping, sexual torture and murder of a young child for sick pleasure are not in doubt, our being willing to respond appropriately to such blatant wrong is what is under test. The result is frankly worrying, given the moral freightedness of ever so many of the challenges facing our civilisation. Moral numbness or inversion are not good signs. With 800+ million victims of the abortion holocaust as exhibit A. KF kairosfocus
KM, further evasion by projection on your part, sadly. This brings up the issue of cognitive dissonance and fairly well recognised associated defence mechanisms. No, this is not not simply winging it on idiosyncratic notions and/or imagining myself a mind reader. The reduction to patent absurdity on denial of the moral yardstick 1 is manifest, so those who do not wish to acknowledge its force are reduced to the rhetoric of evasion. KF PS: Cognitive dissonance, per Wiki 101:
In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the perception of contradictory information. Relevant items of information include a person's actions, feelings, ideas, beliefs, and values, and things in the environment. Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress when they participate in an action that goes against one or more of them. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein they try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1][2] In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance. They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance (rationalization) or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance (confirmation bias).[2] Coping with the nuances of contradictory ideas or experiences is mentally stressful. It requires energy and effort to sit with those seemingly opposite things that all seem true. Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.
A common defence, obviously, is to project blameworthiness to the objected to or despised other -- the scapegoat -- thus suppressing the force of one side of the inner conflict. The onward issue is to see what is clashing, here the strongly inculcated concept that moral principles cannot be objective much less self evident truths but now we see a real world case study that is true on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. kairosfocus
WJM, I intuit otherwise is tantamount to clinging to absurdity when we deal with SET's antecedent to constructing ontologies. As a simple case, clustering two and three fingers then joining as a five does not depend on worldviews. That error exists is undeniable, and so certainly warranted, knowable, cross-worldviews accessible truth exists and shatters any worldview pivoting on relativism, subjectivism, emotivism etc. Similarly, just to communicate we rely on law of identity and its corollaries, LNC and LEM. That's the heart of logic, logic is not a matter of private perceptions or notions. Similarly, the binding force of first principles of right reason illustrates the inescapability of first duties of reason. We are duty bound to be truthful, reasonable, responsible etc, and your own objections repeatedly inescapably implicitly appeal to said Ciceronian first duties. It would be amusing, if it were not so sad. KF kairosfocus
Kf, Two completely different bell curves describe your comments. The first is truth vs not truth with truth to the right. You are on the far right on this bell curve. The second bell curve is persuasive vs non persuasive with persuasive on the far right. You are on the far left of this curve. You resist this latter assessment so you continually provide unpersuasive comments. I would work on the latter. I have never seen anyone speak/write like you do. It violates all the prescriptions of persuasive communications. I have made this point several times but you continue on as always. It is getting you nowhere. jerry
KF said:
5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.: – Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4], – undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable], – inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . [1]. . and the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties, even in your ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline], – blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing conscience], [2] – moral absurdity [trying to evade the case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child] – etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.
The two statements in bold are the points of contention. These are entirely different kinds of statements than the others because the contrary does not result in a logical absurdity. [1] KF just deposits the concept of duty right in there with the inescapable nature of fundamental logical principles as if one means the other exists. Duties must be established on their own, separate from inescapable application and use of logic. Duties cannot be established as such outside of an ontological framework that provides for them. An ontology without such existential duties is not a logical absurdity. [2]Moral absurdities are not logical absurdities. This use of "absurd" is not the same as in the other cases listed. This is why such extreme examples are used; they are appeals to emotion and they bank on the reluctance of people to do anything other than agree that it is self-evidently true. But, it is not, at least not in the same way as the other statements. An amoral universe is not logically absurd. An amoral God as "creator" is not logically absurd. Any "moral absurdity" found in the statement about children is only derived from a moral ontological presupposition. William J Murray
Jerry, to some extent yes there is obvious personal hostility and reaction. However, there are some things that can be used like sand grains in the oyster, hence I took time just now to highlight the error on the nature of self-evident truth. BTW, yet another gap in our basic education due to the intellectual mis-leadership of the past several generations. The horrific damage to our civilisation is manifest. Indeed, the present pandemic is being mismanaged in part because of entrenched breaches of sound logic [esp. inductive logic, the logic of science] and epistemology. We are seeing the unravelling of the it's RACIST to raise questions about a virology lab doing dubious gain of function research, which was used to bias evaluation of any number of policy proposals, proponents and fact claims. Right now, here, we are having to deal with a young lady who just died shortly after taking the first dose of Astra-Zenica, part of a pattern of incidents so common that I begin to suspect a bad batch on top of doubting the claimed incidence of adverse reactions. As, 4500 people should not allow us to observe such a pattern if the rates of adverse reaction are as advertised. Similarly, it is clear that Nobel Prize winning Ivermectin is responsibly safe and medicinal, so we should not be surprised to see other medical effects that are observable. For a decade, evidence has emerged of antibiotic and antiviral action and sufficient evidence has accumulated to warrant allowing doctors to use with patients who are open to it. Instead we find stonewalling dressed up in the lab coat and imposition of gold standard fallacies that ignore the cumulative cogency of empirical evidence. Credibly, hundreds of thousands have needlessly died and huge damage has been done economically and geostrategically because of refusal to heed what weak form knowledge is and how it is built up. Now, whole institutions are locked into reinforcing failures and covering up errors or worse than mere errors. At least, maybe we can begin to see a way to needed reformation. The focus of this OP is on one piece of the needed reformation. KF kairosfocus
KM:
StephenB: intuitive [i.e., private] knowledge of a self evident truth [KM:] Fair enough. But he [KF] shouldn’t be surprised if anyone, who doesn’t share his private “self-evident truth”, disagrees with any of his conclusions based on said private “self-evident truth.”
It is manifest here, that you have failed to reckon with the nature of self-evident truths of reason etc. Here we go, yet again:
1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| --> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs. 2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and recognise the sentences expressing it. 3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it. 4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection. 5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.:
- Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4], - undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable], - inescapability [Epictetus' interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties, even in your ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline], - blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one's self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing conscience], - moral absurdity [trying to evade the case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child] - etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.
6] So, SET's are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument. 7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.
Your attempted implicit dismissal by appeal to subjective opinion [implying, subject to error and so not a genuine warrant or established truth, so commanding no recognition . . . see how the first duties are bound up in the objection?] fails. Fails, in ways that have long since been repeatedly pointed out adequately but studiously evaded, so this is a clear case of your clinging to a crooked yardstick corrected by a plumb line. KF kairosfocus
Kf, This is strictly about you. Just as most who voted for Biden said it was about Trump. You personally are the focus. It is bringing out absurd comments by some malcontents to make you seem in the wrong. No matter what you will say it will not make one iota of difference to them. It’s like the time Trump said “Good Morning” and there was a parity reaction “what was good about it” to show how knee jerked the negative reaction of the press was to anything he said. You would do better to just ignore them and move on. There won’t be as many comments but it will be more useful. Eventually the trolls will disappear or say something worth responding to. But it will take awhile. Meanwhile disregard them. But it appears you cannot. jerry
KF said:
KM, it is because of evasions such as you are trying,
Another uncharitable attempt at mind-reading and motivation-mongering.
The issue on such cases is not whether these are self-evidently true, one has to have a warped conscience to not immediately sense that, it is the evasiveness, and why.
Warped according to what established objective criteria? "Different" does not mean "warped."
The why comes from utter discomfort at the concept of self-evident, so objective truth about duty, about ought-ness [as opposed to is-ness], about morality.
More mind-reading by KF to justify his views. IOW, he knows why we "really" make these arguments.
Yes, knowable — warranted and credibly true, reliable belief — truth that the valuable should be cherished as valuable and treated as ends in themselves not mere toys to be used and broken as one pleases.
Of course, all of this depends on adopting KF's ontology and epistemology because they cannot be argued successfully external of that set of conditions and rules.
That oh so clear balking at and persistent attempt to evade patent truth is one of the strongest signs of how deep the rot is in our civilisation.
More mind-reading and motivation mongering. Add "mind-reading" and "motivation mongering" to the list of bad arguments KF is engaging in to try to support his worldview. William J Murray
SB said:
And he is right. Further, His position does not depend on his ontological premise because it is based on intuitive knowledge of a self evident truth, – which is more basic than his ontological perspective. Indeed, it is this same self-evident truth that *informs* his ontological perspective.
Well, if all it takes to establish a self-evident truth is "intuition," then here's the only response necessary: "I intuit otherwise." This is why I use a non-intuitive, non-subjective standard for my defining any statement as self-evidently and/or necessarily true. William J Murray
KM, it is because of evasions such as you are trying, that I have consistently used a real world case of kidnapping a child going home from school, binding, sexually torturing and murdering for pleasure. The others who give a generic case about torturing infants consistently -- but not uniformly -- speak of for fun. The issue on such cases is not whether these are self-evidently true, one has to have a warped conscience to not immediately sense that, it is the evasiveness, and why. The why comes from utter discomfort at the concept of self-evident, so objective truth about duty, about ought-ness [as opposed to is-ness], about morality. Yes, knowable -- warranted and credibly true, reliable belief -- truth that the valuable should be cherished as valuable and treated as ends in themselves not mere toys to be used and broken as one pleases. Not everything is known or is knowable to us, but some things are and this test case is one of them. That oh so clear balking at and persistent attempt to evade patent truth is one of the strongest signs of how deep the rot is in our civilisation. KF kairosfocus
vividbleau, Thanks for acknowledging that it's not self-evidently evil to torture babies in every situation, from every viewpoint. What is being done may be evil in relation to the perps, but not evil with relation to the victim, as the Joseph story, and my thought experiment, illustrate. Now, what if the parents are given absolute knowledge that it was an "incarnation of punishment" for Himmler meted out by God? Still evil for them? What if they enjoy dishing out the punishment to the reincarnated Himmler? Still evil? If so, why? I might enjoy it. Why not? And I'll bet there are some Jewish families that would enjoy it. And why not? At that point, it would be ridiculous to say that such enjoyment over torturing a reincarnated baby Himmler was "self-evidently evil" for all people with an intact conscience. God knows he is punishing Himmler and he is not punishing Himmleer for fun rather for justice. Um, well, it can be both. If you take a look at Psalm 2, where Yahweh laughs about the impending calamity he's about to mete out, there sure does seem to be some enjoyment going on there. No solemn tears for the rebels.
The One enthroned in heaven laughs with contempt; the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath"
I don't know about you, but when I laugh and scoff at someone, it's enjoyable. ;) Karen McMannus
KM re 1013 “(The parents need not know anything about his past as the architect of the Nazi death camps.) Is the torturing of him during his “incarnations of punishment” self-evidently evil?” This reminds me of the story about Joseph who was thrown into the pit by his brothers and left for dead. He ended up being the right hand man of Pharaoh responsible for food distribution for Egypt. His brothers went to Egypt asking him for help, did not know who he was and when he told them they thought he would kill them.Long story short Joseph says you meant it for evil (killing him ) but God meant it for good because the Jewish tribes were spared from the ravages of famine and thus their evil act put Joseph in the position to save Israel. Motivations and intent matter. God knows he is punishing Himmler and he is not punishing Himmleer for fun rather for justice. The parents do not know any of this and they are doing it for fun not justice. The parents actions are evil as it surely is, Gods actions are good (justice) Vivid vividbleau
Paige “Yes, those who support freedom, equal opportunity for all and oppose discrimination and marginalizing people because they happen to be different have been more persuasive than those who want to impose their personal worldview on others.” What are laws Paige under penalty if not an imposition of someone’s world view? Do you think we should have laws with penal power against discrimination or denial of equal opportunity and equal rights ? Do you even know or understand why the framers of the Declaration of Independence use the term “self evident” that all men are created equal. It flowed from certain worldviews of the Judaeo Christian culture, the Enlightenment by great minds like Locke, Montescue, and other great minds. You are doing the exact thing you are accusing KF of doing but you seem to be oblivious to it. None of us are exempt from world-views, none of us are exempt from wanting to impose our world views and that includes you. Vivid, vividbleau
SB: Meanwhile,, the argument that humans should not torture babies for fun is self evident to anyone with a functioning conscience. Actually it isn't. I'm revolted by the idea of babies being tortured for fun, and would step in and try to stop anyone from doing it, if I had the chance. But it's not "self-evident" that babies should not be tortured for fun in all imaginable cases. For example, most people, who have an awareness of what Heinrich Himmler managed to pull of with the Nazi death camps, come to the conclusion he was a seriously evil dude. Let's do a little thought experiment. Say that as part of his punishment, God consigned Himmler to reincarnate many times, once for each of the lives he murdered in the death camps, and as a baby during those "incarnations of punishment", he is to be born to parents that have fun torturing him while he is a baby. (The parents need not know anything about his past as the architect of the Nazi death camps.) Is the torturing of him during his "incarnations of punishment" self-evidently evil? You can cry "absurdity" all you want, but the story is not implausible. Context matters. Even when it comes to torturing babies for fun. Karen McMannus
StephenB: intuitive [i.e., private] knowledge of a self evident truth Fair enough. But he shouldn't be surprised if anyone, who doesn't share his private "self-evident truth", disagrees with any of his conclusions based on said private "self-evident truth." Karen McMannus
WJM
He’s (KF) has been trying to make the case by saying some of these things are “self-evident,” when they clearly are not.
And he is right. Further, His position does not depend on his ontological premise because it is based on intuitive knowledge of a self evident truth, - which is more basic than his ontological perspective. Indeed, it is this same self-evident truth that *informs* his ontological perspective. Meanwhile,, the argument that humans should not torture babies for fun is self evident to anyone with a functioning conscience.. So it is with murder and many other offenses against the natural law. Does that mean that such things are is self-evident *to everyone," without exception. No, because the human conscience can be compromised or damaged in many ways. A good example of a damaged conscience would be the radical Islamist, who has been brainwashed from his youth to the point where he would fly an airplane into a skyscraper on the promise of a future reward. Such would be the case with one steeped in Communism and its doctrine that "the end justifies the means.", Or again, a compromised conscience can be developed in somone who has cultivated a series of bad habits, as is the case with an alcoholic or a libertine. Indeed, it is in your world of personal preferences at the exclusion of objective morality where the intuitive moral sense is most often lost. A strong preference that objective morality should not be true can prompt one to believe that isn't true. Someone in that camp would prefer not to be held accountable to anything or anyone. It isn't that they never had a moral sense so much as it is that they lost it through neglect or abuse.. Since they didn't conform their behavior to a moral code, they found a moral code that conforms to their behavior, but it manifests itself as the absence of any moral code at all. Still, the fact remains that the self evident nature of objective morality is, indeed. self evident to most people as has always been the case throughout history. This moral sense is more basic than any ontological premise that may flow from it. Thus, Kairosfocus is right and you are wrong. It is not his ontological premise that dictates his moral sense. StephenB
Really the religious judgement has no bias. You pray to God in worship, and that helps forming your opinions. There is nothing in this procedure which says that the end-result of it must be, the opinion that sex is only for procreation inside marriage. But it generally does turn out that way. It is especially true that it is non biased, because God the holy spirit has no objective aspects whatsoever. So there is nothing objective there to bias the opinion. mohammadnursyamsu
KM
Well, there could be other reasons. And obvious example: to guarantee that humans would keep reproducing. The urge of sex is all up and down (pardon the pun) the animal kingdom. It keeps them having lots and lots of babies.
You make a good point. But surely, if God wanted man to only have sex for procreation during marriage, he wouldn’t have made non-procreative sex, or premarital sex, or masturbation, or oral sex, or anal sex, pleasurable. But getting back to WJM’s arguments, I agree with him. The premises upon which a person’s logical arguments are made are intimately linked to the person’s personal beliefs. If you are deeply religious and believe strongly that sex should only be after marriage, limited to the missionary position, and only for procreation, the premises that form the foundation of your logical arguments about sex will inevitably be such that the conclusion of your argument will support your belief. Therefore, pre-marital sex, homosexual sex and masturbation must be wrong. Conversely, if you firmly believe that we should not prohibit any form of consensual sex between adults, as long as it does not cause harm to others, the premises you base your arguments on will be those that support your belief. Therefore, any act to prohibit consensual sex between adults, as long as it does not cause harm to others, is wrong. paige
Paige, it is you who started by trying to dismiss relevance of the failure of Athenian democracy and it is you who tried to suggest that in effect things are more or less fine then that cases I identified as showing Jerry's observation that there is a slippery slope is a fair point were somehow cherry picked. I therefore infer for cause that you do not wish to be held to your own stated claims. Your latest is to suggest that a reasonable observation on accurate summary is personal attack. Where already there is a suspended matter on the table where you misrepresented me as railing. Duly noted. KF PS: Using newspeak driven agit prop and lawfare that distorts sexual identity, marriage, family structure and community stability is an attack on marriage inter alia. kairosfocus
Sandy, where did WJM say "there is no truth?" Karen McMannus
Paige: He either did this for our benefit, in which case sex is not wrong or he did it to test our ability to resist temptation Well, there could be other reasons. And obvious example: to guarantee that humans would keep reproducing. The urge of sex is all up and down (pardon the pun) the animal kingdom. It keeps them having lots and lots of babies. Karen McMannus
Under IRT, however, universal objective morality cannot be true.
:) haha... There is no truth. Is that a truth? Sandy
WJM, I agree that a person’s belief system will bias their logic because it informs the premises they accept as the basis for their logic. For example, KF’s belief system includes significant proscriptions on various sexual behaviors. As such, he concludes that anyone engaging in those sexual behaviors is doing wrong. However, he can only speak for himself, not for others. I had pre-marital sex with a few individuals before I found the person I married. As my beliefs do not see consensual sex as being wrong, I do not see pre-marital sex as being wrong. If God exists, and I am open to the idea, he made sex pleasurable. He either did this for our benefit, in which case sex is not wrong, or he did it to test our ability to resist temptation, in which case he is not a being worth worshipping. paige
@892:
SB said:
Excuse me, but this is total nonsense. A statement either makes logical sense or it doesn’t. The rules for deductive reasoning do not vary depending on one’s ontological perspective.
I responded:
The rules don’t change. The implications and conclusions change when you change the premises. I don’t see how one could more significantly change the premises than by beginning with an entirely different ontology.
William J Murray
SB: Also me, @618:
Now, let’s look at some other features of KF’s ontology: 1. Morality/moral duties that are distinct from general, or “mere” preference 2. That we are contingent beings living in a specifically created, single, contingent, objectively existing common world. 3. That a maximally great and good God created us and the universes and the system we live in and cannot escape. Are those commodities inescapable aspects of any and all possible ontologies? As I’ve argued elsewhere, no. Not even remotely so, at least not by any argument presented here. Because the contraries do not represent absurdities, if nothing else. So, KF et al must argue that these commodities are actual because they cannot be shown to be unavoidable. And this is where that argument fails: he can only make those arguments by assuming those ontological commodities are actual. Those additional assumed ontological commodities inform every aspect of his argument, from how the logic is applied and in what context, to what evidence is about and what it implies and how it is interpreted; what true statements are about and what they imply. It’s an entirely circular argument.
William J Murray
SB: me, at #599:
KF is failing to understand that while everyone understands and accepts the necessity of the principles of logic, they are not applying those principles within the same ontological framework that KF is. Objective or universal morality is part of KF’s ontological framework. He’s conflating it with logical principles, or at least trying to embed one with the other. The key part of the fundamental argument here is ontological, not epistemological. In KF’s ontology, morality is a fundamental existential feature and has it’s own fundamental principles like logic for properly measuring good and evil in that ontological framework. No such thing exist in the ontology of some others here so there is no epistemological device for “measuring” it objectively.
William J Murray
SB said:
All along, you have accused Kairosfocus of failed logic on the grounds that his ontological premise is responsible for the failure.
Nope. That is not at all what arguments I have been making with KF. One of the things I've argued for weeks now is that his arguments completely depend on his ontology, even though he attempts to avoid bringing it explicitly into the discussion. He's attempting to make an argument for objective morality and objective existential duties without referring to his ontological premise. You, SB, have been more forthcoming with your ontological premises in making your arguments. Because he (KF) has tried making his case without explicitly providing the necessary ontological premise for his argument, he's been making one bad argument after another, which I detailed in #481. He's been trying to make the case by saying some of these things are "self-evident," when they clearly are not. Even if the were, so what? Without the ontologically-based inescapable consequences, nobody would care.
Yet you have not identified his premise, which should be the first order of business, nor have you explained exactly how this unidentified premise could possibly compromise the reasonableness of his arguments, which is the only way you could possibly defend your claim.
He has identified his ontological premise many times. It's not a secret here. But, he thinks his logic holds up (his inferences, conclusions, statements) hold up without the Christian ontology. They do not. I have not said his logic fails or is bad internally - internal to his Christian ontology and epistemology. I've been pointing out repeatedly that he keeps using bad logic when he tries to make his arguments independent of his ontology. William J Murray
I never clamed that ontology can compromise the reasoning process, SB. I said that if you change the premise, the logical inferences and conclusions often change as well. William J Murray
If one's ontology is that a God rules over the existence He created and has set up an inescapable reward/penalty system for moral/immoral behavior, then it follows that we have an existential duty (whether we like it or not) to moral behavior. If one's ontology is that no such God exists or has created any such system, then no such duties can be said to exist. William J Murray
WJM:
I didn’t give an example because it is blatantly obvious. Here’s an example where changing the premise renders the rest of the logical argument nonsensical. 1. If all humans are mortal, and John is a human, then John is mortal. 2. If all dogs have tails, and John is a human, then John is mortal.
That will not work. We are not discussing a "changed" ontological premise. We are discussing your claim that a singular ontological premise can, on its own, compromise the reasoning process. .You cannot provide an example of how this could happen for the simple reason that it cannot happen. The claim itself is irrational. All along, you have accused Kairosfocus of failed logic on the grounds that his ontological premise is responsible for the failure. Yet you have not identified his premise, which should be the first order of business, nor have you explained exactly how this unidentified premise could possibly compromise the reasonableness of his arguments, which is the only way you could possibly defend your claim. StephenB
Continued from #994: So, the premise is essential to the inference/conclusion of a logical statement argument. IF one's ontology is that a supreme God created a specifically moral creation as the only thing that exists, and created us innately with morality, then morality is universally objective. IF one's ontology is that all possible things exist, then morality would be objectively existent (as a possible thing) but could not be universal because non-moral sentient beings and non-moral worlds can possibly exist. William J Murray
KF
none so blind as one who refuses to see is an old, telling saying.
It has been my experience that when someone starts a response with an ad-hominem, the remainder of the comment is very weak. And I wasn't disappointed.
History is not generally reducible to statistical trends.
Actually, the value of history is that you can use it to discern trends that led up to certain events. For both Hitler and Stalin, there were plenty of observable trends that let up to the mass-murders. Sadly, if these trends had been acted on earlier, the killings may have been prevented.
Our current circumstance is that legal positivism has managed to entrench itself in centres of power and influence, “law” say they, boils down to what those who control the legal presses can impose; specifically, without reference to justice. The door to nihilistic lawlessness in that is patent.
Yes, those who support freedom, equal opportunity for all and oppose discrimination and marginalizing people because they happen to be different have been more persuasive than those who want to impose their personal worldview on others. Society has always functioned this way and always will. It's almost like personal moral values and expectations vary over time and between cultures, almost as if they were subjectively derived. I understand that you are not in favour of many of the changes that have been over the last few years, but societies do not survive by pleasing an individual. Societies survive by making rules that enough people are happy with that they go with the flow.
The worst single case is erosion of right to life seen in the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, 800+ millions since the early 70’s, mounting at about 1 million per week.
Yet the abortion rates have been steadily decreasing over the last few decades. We should be examining the causes of this and supporting these causes.
Jerry noted a telling statement, that once the standard is dismissed, a ratchet engages on a slippery slope, the cliff being where children start to play the sex market game.
Yes, it was very telling. It spoke to the inanity of the statement. 95% of American adults had pre-marital sex, yet I have not heard of a plague of 10 year olds having sex. The slippery slope argument is usually raised when the evidence doesn't support a certain view.
Incest is now being pushed along with every variety of sodomy and sado-masochism, by the porn-perversion industry.
I will have to take your word for it as I don't frequent porn sites.
NAMBLA, FYI, is real. MB means, Man->Boy. Ponder where such things point.
It may exist, but are any lawmakers taking them seriously? Are any lawmakers considering legalizing sex between adults and children? Freedom of speech is fundamental to the American society and what it makes it so great. But to support freedom of speech, you must support the right of people to say things you disagree with. NAMBLA members may advocate for sex between adults and children, but if any of them are caught doing so, they are arrested.
Pederastry etc are real. Satanic group sex rituals leading to systematic sexual abuse is real.It is suspected that that 5y 7 mo mother was a victim of such rituals.
Yes, I agree that they are real. And the five year old mother happened in 1933 so using it to warn about current trends doesn't hold water. The last time I looked, pedophilia and sexual assault are still illegal and prosecuted whereas, in the good old days that you long for, pedophilia and sexual assaults were often swept under the rug. Personally, I prefer the current approach. paige
Reformatting 991 to make more sense: SB said:
I didn’t ask you to tell me what I already know. I am the one who brought up the IF/Then component. I asked you to defend your claim by giving me one specific example of how one’s ontological premise can compromise the logic of an argument and explain how the premise was responsible for failed logic. I already know that you can’t do it because I know that your claim is false.
I didn’t give an example because it is blatantly obvious. Here’s an example where changing the premise renders the rest of the logical argument nonsensical. 1. If all humans are mortal, and John is a human, then John is mortal. 2. If all dogs have tails, and John is a human, then John is mortal. William J Murray
I say that I don't know if objective, universal morality exists because there are only a couple of things I claim to know. I exist, and I experience. Beyond that, it's all conditional beliefs and theories. I don't know if IRT is true or not. I don't know if Christianity is true or not. I don't know if there is a universal objective morality or not. Under IRT, however, universal objective morality cannot be true. William J Murray
SB said:
I have a problem with it because your IRT world view includes the unfortunate habit of quietly imposing your own private definition on words that have common meaning.
Experiences objectively exist as experiences in all worldviews that I'm aware of. I never claimed duties and morality do not objectively exist as experiences. They also objectively exist in the sense that many if not most people have those experiences. However, not all objective things are universal. Those are two different concepts. Under your and KF's ontology, "objective morality" is held as a universally inescapable experience for all sentient beings. It is not that under IRT. While such things are objectively existent, they are not universal. What word would you like me to use instead of using "objective," and informing people that I do not mean it like they do, under their ontology, but rather in the way I described above?
Even after acknowledging that you cheat with words,
I never acknowledged any such thing. You seem to be becoming less and less civil and charitable in our discussion.
it is still impossible to make sense of your arguments.
For you and many others, perhaps. Many others have also understood my arguments.
You say, for example, that you don’t know if “objective morality” exists, leading your reader to believe that you are using those words to mean what everyone means by them, an abstract moral code that applies to all people.
I don't know if "universal objective morality" exists.
Then we find out that, for you, objective morality exists as “things” (as opposed to existing as abstract realities) and refers to your subjective experience (as opposed to something outside your experience).
You're not understanding IRT here. Under IRT, the abstract = reality. Nothing exists outside of potential (abstract information) and abstract experience. Of course, most abstract information is not translated into any one person's experience. Morality and duty is translated into a lot of people's experience; it's part of what is available in reality (all abstract potential.) Thus, morality (categorically) is objectively existent (as abstract potential), just not a universal experience of all sentient beings. And, certainly not the same specific moral codes extend to everyone who experiences some version of morality. William J Murray
SB said: I didn’t ask you to tell me what I already know. I am the one who brought up the IF/Then component. I asked you to defend your claim by giving me one specific example of how one’s ontological premise can compromise the logic of an argument and explain how the premise was responsible for failed logic. I already know that you can’t do it because I know that your claim is false. I didn't give an example because it is blatantly obvious. Here's an example where changing the premise renders the rest of the logical argument nonsensical. 1. If all humans are mortal, and John is a human, then John is mortal. 2. If all dogs have tails, and John is a human, then John is mortal. William J Murray
Let's go for 2000 comments. Only 1010 to go. Are conspiracy theories actual? Here is a comment just posted on another thread about hiding the truth. --------------------------- Time for conspiracy theory. There was a 1951 Agatha Christie novel that curiously never got made into film or video. It was "They Came to Baghdad." I never heard of it till this morning. But for a recent interpretation of this relatively unknown Christie book see https://www.bookwormroom.com/2021/05/29/agatha-christie-and-the-nature-of-moral-corruption/
Agatha Christie and the nature of moral corruption When you strip away the Marxist gloss of 21st century Democrats and the simplistic Maguffin of Christie’s plot, you find the same thing: People who believe that they are imbued with the power to change reality, and they do not care how many lives ae destroyed in the process.
She nailed the elites 70 years ago. They are still at it today.             Are they playing God? It deals with manipulating what is true or how we are unable to form a justified true belief because facts are hidden from us. Even the troll may want to comment since it mentions God and god knows he knows better that God. jerry
WJM:
The premise is the “IF” part of an if/then argument. “If X is true, then Y.” X is the assumed or agreed-upon premise. Y is the inference or conclusion that follows from the premise.
I didn't ask you to tell me what I already know. I am the one who brought up the IF/Then component. I asked you to defend your claim by giving me one specific example of how one's ontological premise can compromise the logic of an argument and explain how the premise was responsible for failed logic. I already know that you can't do it because I know that your claim is false.
I told you up front that the term didn’t mean the same thing under my ontology as under yours. You asked me what it meant in mine. I told you what it means in mine. I’m not sure why you’re having a problem with that.
I have a problem with it because your IRT world view includes the unfortunate habit of quietly imposing your own private definition on words that have common meaning. Even after acknowledging that you cheat with words, it is still impossible to make sense of your arguments. You say, for example, that you don't know if "objective morality" exists, leading your reader to believe that you are using those words to mean what everyone means by them, an abstract moral code that applies to all people. Then we find out that, for you, objective morality exists as "things" (as opposed to existing as abstract realities) and refers to your subjective experience (as opposed to something outside your experience). StephenB
Paige, none so blind as one who refuses to see is an old, telling saying. Sadly, perhaps all too apt. You started with trying to tell relevance of truth by the clock, so "automatically" denying the relevance of the case that broke credibility of democratisation for 2,000 years: Athens' failure through the Peloponnesian war. On the contrary, history, sound history was bought with blood and tears and is always relevant. History is not generally reducible to statistical trends. We do not need statistics to learn from Nero, or Stalin, or Hitler et al. Or from Marquis de Sade and too many others. Let me put his attitude in a nutshell: nature has made men physically stronger than women, and that gives men the right to use women sexually as they please. That is, women are a prey species for the most dangerous predator ever to walk this planet, the uncivilised, nihilistically amoral human male. (Look up Beria on this, if you dare.) I trust that is enough to warn from sobering, horrific history. Next, kindly scroll up to the OP as augmented and observe the issues on the alternative historically anchored political spectrum [LCR is of dubious validity]. The BATNA of lawfulness is on the table, it is the barrier to falling back into lawless oligarchy, the "norm" for government by out of control power brokers since forever. Lawlessness, I have already touched on. Our current circumstance is that legal positivism has managed to entrench itself in centres of power and influence, "law" say they, boils down to what those who control the legal presses can impose; specifically, without reference to justice. The door to nihilistic lawlessness in that is patent. It is in that context that I pointed to the Ciceronian first duties, noting their inescapable authority and so self-evidence; and yes that raises serious questions on IS-OUGHT gaps and the root of reality. The relevance is, this frame of core law coeval with our humanity -- the term coeval comes from Blackstone building on Locke et al -- is historically pivotal in the buttressing of democratisation as was discussed. There is a summary in the additions to OP. That frame is being eroded, in many ways. The worst single case is erosion of right to life seen in the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, 800+ millions since the early 70's, mounting at about 1 million per week. On sexuality, individual identity, marriage, family and the like, there are many trends that show the breakdown. Jerry gave an explanation on undermining recognition of the priority of chastity and fidelity, which you actually implicitly acknowledge. But newspeak and doubletalk cloud the issue. Jerry noted a telling statement, that once the standard is dismissed, a ratchet engages on a slippery slope, the cliff being where children start to play the sex market game. Incest is now being pushed along with every variety of sodomy and sado-masochism, by the porn-perversion industry. Which is an apt example of Augustine's warning on instructing the people in the techniques of vice, in City of God. NAMBLA, FYI, is real. MB means, Man->Boy. Ponder where such things point. I pointed out to you a striking case now in court not 1/2 mile from where I type, involving a sub culture where there is a perception by 12 - 13 year olds that they are in the sex market. And, market it is, starting with defloration/first time as a high price service commodity and with utterly depraved men having a taste for despoiling the very young backed by serious money. Pederastry etc are real. Satanic group sex rituals leading to systematic sexual abuse is real.It is suspected that that 5y 7 mo mother was a victim of such rituals. I wish I did not have to point such out. It is a further fact that I found false assertions by radical advocates in regional policy discussions, targetting age of consent laws as allegedly oppressive. We had two scandals regarding dubious curricula for orphanages in this region. I recall here, the 12 year old girl who -- manifestly from having been a demonstration in point -- spoke of men who put their young sons to stand by and watch while they demonstrate forceful, deliberately brutal defloration (a psychologist advised me this likely implied the onward target was grooming the boys standing by for their "turn" . . . ). School officials have had to deal with cases of how porn influenced 7 and 8 year olds try things out that would appall you. And there is much more, shockingly, frighteningly, sickeningly much more. Breakdown of barriers of chastity, fidelity and natural law marriage slides down then over a cliff, ending in things likely beyond your nightmares. We are playing with fast-spreading hellfire, as a civilisation. We had better wake up before we go over the cliff. KF kairosfocus
SB asks:
What does objective morality mean “in your perspective” and how does it differ from the ordinary meaning?
I answered that in the latter part of #979:
However, you’re right, I did not directly respond to that later question at that time. My bad. If there are other questions I missed, let me know, I will do my best to respond to them. Under IRT, “objective morality” can be said to exist as part of an experiential sub-system of potential experiences, such as “Christianity” or “Islam.” It’s like a virtual reality game program lots of people subscribe to. The morality code actually exists in the shared virtual reality program across subscribers. They experience it. They experience the duties, etc. But, it only exists as such for those who subscribe to, or are “logged into” that particular available experiential system. So, objective morality would exist, like lots of objectively real things; it just wouldn’t be universal. That’s how it would be different from what you and others usually think about “objective morality;” under your paradigm, its objective nature means it is universal; under IRT, it’s objective nature does not mean it is universal.
SB said:
They don’t affect the *IF/THEN structure of the argument.
The premise is the "IF" part of an if/then argument. "If X is true, then Y." X is the assumed or agreed-upon premise. Y is the inference or conclusion that follows from the premise.
Why would you use a word outside of its ordinary meaning except to distract, mislead, and misdirect?
I told you up front that the term didn't mean the same thing under my ontology as under yours. You asked me what it meant in mine. I told you what it means in mine. I'm not sure why you're having a problem with that. William J Murray
WJM
Are the premises irrelevant to the integrity of a logical argument
Yes. Notice, by the way, how willing I am to answer your questions.
Premises are an essential part of any logical argument, whether deductive, inductive or abductive.
I didn't say that premises are *not an essential part of an argument.* Everyone knows that an unsound premise produces an unsound conclusion if the reasoning process is done correctly I said that the premises do not affect the correctness or integrity of the argument or the reasoning process itself.They don't affect the *IF/THEN structure of the argument. If you disagree, provide a specific counter example and explain how the premise was responsible for failed logic.
SB, it appears I already addressed your question long before that exchange:
No. My comment @57 is unrelated to my challenge @143. So here we go again. What does objective morality mean “in your perspective” and how does it differ from the ordinary meaning? Why would you use a word outside of its ordinary meaning except to distract, mislead, and misdirect? StephenB
But this is all off topic for this thread. Perhaps a thread dedicated to these subjects. paige
KF
Paige, first the case is not “cherry picked,”...
It shows all the signs of "cherry picking". Do you actually have statistics to back up a trend towards efforts to lower the age of consent? Or to normalize incest?
it is part of a sub-culture that frankly is being amplified by the porn-perversion plague,...
I agree that porn is a problem.
the breakdown of respect for family norms and general morality etc.
Again, do you have real data showing a breakdown of this respect? As you know, I support SSM, but my respect for opposite sex marriage is no less.
Chastity, fidelity, purity etc are at steep discount even disdained,
Chastity is a personal choice. I support those who opt for it and also those who don't. I strongly support fidelity for anyone who gets married, including same sex couples and for those in long term relationships. I have no idea what you mean by purity.
there is an active attack on marriage,
Again, do you have any reliable data on this or is this just your opinion? I haven't seen any attack on marriage. My children are all married.
and incest is being actively promoted too.
Again, do you have reliable trend data that demonstrates this? Or are you again relying on anecdotal information?
I have many times pointed to the worst, ongoing holocaust in history, 800+ million of living posterity in the womb, with another about a million per week.
Yes, abortion is a problem, but I take comfort in the fact that the rates of teen pregnancy and abortion rates have been steadily declining. I would love to have every pregnancy be a wanted pregnancy. As well, I would like to see much greater support for women who do find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy so that they can carry it to term and give it up for adoption. paige
Paige, first the case is not "cherry picked," it is part of a sub-culture that frankly is being amplified by the porn-perversion plague, the breakdown of respect for family norms and general morality etc. Maybe you have overlooked several recent major and international cases. I WISH it were isolated -- it isn't even within the case [second sister in the family . . .] -- but it is not. Chastity, fidelity, purity etc are at steep discount even disdained, there is an active attack on marriage, even personal identity, and incest is being actively promoted too. The point is, once responsible reasonable frames are undermined, family and societal stability is undermined and that's across the board. I have many times pointed to the worst, ongoing holocaust in history, 800+ million of living posterity in the womb, with another about a million per week. Such are not marks of a healthy civilisation. The implication is destabilisation of culture and undermining of the buttresses of constitutional democracy, what has held back the dynamics in Plato's ship of state. . Particularly, the BATNA of lawfulness is being eaten away, pointing to collapse into lawless oligarchy. KF kairosfocus
KF
The ongoing trial is against the backdrop of age of consent 16, with not a virgin at 12 or 13 an apparent background factor.
KF, cherry-picking individual examples is not a sign of us going over a cliff. Law suits can be raised for many causes, many of which do not win. Age of consent is a difficult issue because it attempts to assign a fixed age below which a person does not have the mental and emotional capabilities to make their own decisions, and above which they do. In the 1880s the age of consent in the US was 10 or 12, depending on the state. Currently, it is 16 or 18 depending on the state, although in some states a person can get married at 14 with parental consent. At the heart of age of consent is to clarify when the government, through the courts, can step in and prevent two people from doing what they want. Unfortunately you have to treat each case separately. I don't think that any of us want to see someone charged with a criminal offence because they are 18 and the person they had consensual sex with was 17 (in a state where 18 is the age of consent). As I have repeated many times, I am not advocating for pre-marital sex. It is a personal choice. For a person who has deeply held religious beliefs that pre-marital sex is wrong, the best choice would probably be to not have pre-marital sex. This is the choice that is most likely to prevent serious feelings of guilt and self-recrimination, as well as possible social recriminations. However, for those without similar deeply held beliefs, the consequences are not the same. In short, it is a personal choice and I would fight any effort to prohibit it. And by prohibit, I mean through legal means. I have no problem with people, including churches, advocating for saving yourself for marriage. I hope that clarifies my view on this subject. paige
Premises are an essential part of any logical argument, whether deductive, inductive or abductive. In relation to debates about our current subject matter, the premises can be agreed-on evidence (even if arguendo ) which can lead to a conclusion about "the nature of things"or an ontology that follows from an argument. KF often uses this form of argument and those kinds of premises. However, when I make an argument about "what a thing is" under IRT, like "objective morality" or the experience of the flow of time, my argument or description of "what is going on" or "what those things are" is dependent on the premise of IRT. The IRT ontology is the premise for those inferences, conclusions and descriptions. Now, you can make an argument or statements about those things, but "what those things are" depends entirely on your ontological (what things are or exist as) premises. Under your ontological premise, "objective morality" exists as (ontology) a quality of all of existence under a moral and just God who created all things. There's no escaping the ontological commitments your concept of "objective morality" is moored in and flows from. The same is true of the differing concepts of what the experience of "flow of time" is. To make a successful argument against IRT premises, inferences or conclusions, you have to show how some aspect of it is factually wrong or logically in error internally. Showing me how my inferences and conclusions are in error from your premises, in your ontology, is not a valid rebuttal; you have to use my ontological premises, unless you are going to show how some aspect of it is factually wrong. William J Murray
WJM:
You seem to think that ontological differences are largely irrelevant in all of this.
SB said:
They are irrelevant to the integrity of a logical argument.
Are the premises irrelevant to the integrity of a logical argument? William J Murray
SB, it appears I already addressed your question long before that exchange: SB @57:
If I say that there “really are” such things as human dignity, justice, goodness, right and wrong, I mean that all those values rise to the level of objective reality and exist as elements of a moral universe.. In what way would those same words (“really are”) mean something different for you?
WJM replied @65:
I would mean that all those values rise to the level of experiential reality and exist as elements of a moral experience.
However, you're right, I did not directly respond to that later question at that time. My bad. If there are other questions I missed, let me know, I will do my best to respond to them. Under IRT, "objective morality" can be said to exist as part of an experiential sub-system of potential experiences, such as "Christianity" or "Islam." It's like a virtual reality game program lots of people subscribe to. The morality code actually exists in the shared virtual reality program across subscribers. They experience it. They experience the duties, etc. But, it only exists as such for those who subscribe to, or are "logged into" that particular available experiential system. So, objective morality would exist, like lots of objectively real things; it just wouldn't be universal. That's how it would be different from what you and others usually think about "objective morality;" under your paradigm, its objective nature means it is universal; under IRT, it's objective nature does not mean it is universal. William J Murray
Paige [attn Jerry], your accusation of raillery regarding onanism [closely tied to other issues on sexual morality] is still being evaded. While for the moment I am suspending stronger action, I note that first, you here show the precise point from OP. That is, in objecting to Ciceronian first duties of reason, you cannot but appeal to their pervasive authority in what you expect of others in exchanges. Inescapability is a strong mark of first principles of reason. On the more specific tangent, Jerry is right that there is a moral degradation ratchet such that once genital sexuality is taken outside the context of natural law marriage [with newspeak, agit prop and lawfare as well as a multi-billion porn-perversion agenda "industry" in play], a slide over the cliff begins. The end of that cliff is fighting over the sexuality of 10 - 12 year olds. Right now, here, we have a trial in progress where a pivotal cultural context is sub cultures where 12 year old girls see themselves as women in the game for essentially transactional sex, starting with virginity as a valuable commodity. The attitude is, if I can get he . . . usually a man of some substance . . . and handle he da's my business [worse, when many of these girls are physically big enough and mature looking enough to pass as if 6 - 10 years older than they are]. Too often, that shades over into implicit buying of sexual relationships by showering such girls with gifts or even, frankly outright prostitution including by step parents or natural parents. The ongoing trial is against the backdrop of age of consent 16, with not a virgin at 12 or 13 an apparent background factor. The difference between folkways and mores and sound moral reasoning thence civil law to protect the vulnerable becomes a thorny problematique. KF PS: The implicit ratifying and legitimisation of wrongful and so chaotic, destructive conduct by "be real" approaches not sufficiently restrained by issues of moral government, consideration of immaturity and vulnerability, as well as the need to provide sound discipline and focus to prepare for healthy, productive life, is a factor. Teens are simply not equipped mentally to understand and respond to risk, short and long term; including, risks to body with life long or life threatening consequences. Hence, ever so many maturity threshold laws, starting with driver's licence laws, liquor consumption laws and age of consent laws. And as a policy matter, I have seen attacks on age of consent law (in the name of avoiding "stigma" for HIV issues) as being allegedly oppressive. Ponder the sort of girl, the sort of boy or man, the sort of parent and the sub culture I have summarised. I think we need to have a very different civilisation level conversation on first duties, nurture, law, government and moral climate. kairosfocus
Jerry
You recommended something be made normal that leads to repulsive things such an obvious outcome of young children experimenting with sex. Before that you associated ancient Greece with pedophilia
Jerry, if you want to have an honest conversation you have to stop misrepresenting what people say. At no time did I advocate for pre-marital sex, or say that I wanted to make it normal. Although, given that 95% of adult Americans have had pre-marital sex I would say that it is the norm whether you like it or not. Whether someone has sex before marriage is a personal choice. For some, it results in guilt. For others, such as myself, there are no regrets. But what I do find interesting is that from 1954 to 2003 the number of women who have had premarital sex has increased. I don't think that there is any surprise there, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=1802108_12_FinerFigure2.jpg But over the same time period, the frequency of teen pregnancies has been cut in half. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/02/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/ft_19-08-02_teenbirths_us-teen-birth-rate-fallen-over-time/ I realize that there are several factor involved, including better sex education and access to birth control. But it doesn't seem like pre-marital sex has cause the downfall of civilization. However, this being said, women who have premarital sex with multiple partners before marriage tend to have a slightly higher divorce rate than those with only a few partners or with zero partners. Relationships are complicated. And sex just makes them more complicated. Pre-marital sex is currently the norm. We can either adapt to it by making sure that people have the best information available to them, including the risks associated with sex, so that they can make an informed decision, or we can bury our heads in the sand. paige
To be fair, it was Jerry who brought up child sex.
No, you did. You recommended something be made normal that leads to repulsive things such an obvious outcome of young children experimenting with sex. Before that you associated ancient Greece with pedophilia jerry
Andrew
This is why we swerve inevitably into discussions of things like child sex, and not ID itself.
To be fair, it was Jerry who brought up child sex. paige
WJM:
You seem to think that ontological differences are largely irrelevant in all of this.
They are irrelevant to the integrity of a logical argument. An argument either works or it doesn't. I showed, for example, that in spite of your claim to the contrary, one cannot have an "instantaneous experience" of time flow, You had no answer. I didn't appeal to, allude to, or even imply the existence of, an "ontological premise."
You could have asked, “what does “objective” mean under IRT” when I said objective doesn’t mean the same thing under your ontology as it does under mine. But, you did not.
Yes I did. @143 I wrote this:
"What does objective morality mean “in your perspective” and how does it differ from the ordinary meaning? Why would you use a word outside of its ordinary meaning except to distract, mislead, and misdirect?"
I invite you to go back and check it out. Meanwhile, my question persists, and it should be included in a long list of other questions that remain unanswered. StephenB
Yes, there are regular spammers who are here making noise constantly, and you can't get an honest conversation from them. They aren't here to discuss ID, they are here because they hate what logically follows from ID. This is why we swerve inevitably into discussions of things like child sex, and not ID itself. It's a cultural battle, they are Evolutionary Warriors of Free Sex, and they must harass the enemy! Andrew asauber
you are still ducking
As is every anti ID person who comes here. There is no thank you, I never knew this or thought of it that way. There is just absurd logic to defend their comments or silence as they move on to something else to criticize. It’s not what they expected when they came here. It must be tough for them to find better science and better thought out positions on other issues. Aside: I sat through a long discussion on sex several years ago. The thesis was sex can only allowed in marriage. Otherwise. exceptions lead very quickly to why them and not me. One especially arbitrary cutoff was age as immediately someone younger will insist they should be allowed too. And the presenter then said soon you will be having 10 year olds doing it and bragging about it to their peers. No one dissented from that appraisal. Hence, the origin of my comment. jerry
Paige, you are still ducking. Meanwhile, actually, many reach puberty at or before 10 and there are enough known cases before puberty to give even more sobering pause. I note, the youngest mother on record gave birth at 5 years, seven months. I do not wish to go further into the abyss than that. KF kairosfocus
Jerry
I used this age to show you how bankrupt your idea was. ? I didn’t advocate it, you did.
I didn't advocate for it. I opposed prohibiting it. They are two very different things.
If one makes something normal, then there is no age limit to who will end up doing something considered normal.
I am not saying that we should make pre-marital sex normal. I am saying that pre-marital sex is the norm. https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20061220/premarital-sex-the-norm-in-america And https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=1802108_12_FinerFigure1.jpg
Please explain why 10 year olds will not end up doing this normal behavior.
They haven't reached puberty yet. paige
I tend not to read anything the troll says. But it’s hard not to escape the use of a secret word, namely “ontology” and its variants. Over 170 times on this thread. I wonder if this has now become part of troll speak. jerry
SB: You characterize me as "dodging" the question about objective morality, or "ending discussion" when I refer to differences between ontologies. You say my "logic is bad" because I don't reach the same inferences and conclusions as you even though we have entirely different premises informing those inferences and conclusions. You say that I'm "misusing terminology" because I don't use that terminology the way it would be used under your ontology. You apparently dismiss all of that as me being evasive. You seem to think that ontological differences are largely irrelevant in all of this. You could have asked, "what does "objective" mean under IRT" when I said objective doesn't mean the same thing under your ontology as it does under mine. But, you did not. You could have asked, "what are the premises that you claim lead to those inferences and conclusions?" But you did not. You just claimed my inferences and conclusions were wrong and that the ontological differences (different premise) didn't matter. Similarly, KF asks me "what would follow" if there was no difference between "thought" and "what is actualised" in a reality theory where that is our essential, theorized existential state? What does he mean "what would follow?" Obviously, I'm saying that "what follows" is "what we currently experience" or else how would it be a "reality theory" at least attempting to explain what and how we currently have the experiences we are having? The only way that question from KF makes any sense is if he is asking "what would follow" from his ontological perspective? But we're not talking about about what would follow from his perspective; he has reiterated that at least a dozen times. This goes back to something I've said before: it appears that you and KF cannot, or will not, think outside of your ontological perspective. KF lectures me on the ramifications of my perspective; but those are the consequences that ensue under the premises of his ontology. You characterize me as being unresponsive or evasive if I do not agree to be confined to your ontological and epistemological premises, structure, built-in terminology and meaning when I answer. The terms "objective" and "subjective" are rooted in an ontological perspective. Do you want me to invent entirely new words, maybe an entirely new language to express commodities under IRT? Well, I'm not going to. I'm going to do the best I can using the language I have available, apprising people when a certain term or phrase does not mean the same thing under IRT that it does under other ontologies. If you consider that a dodge or being evasive, that's not my problem to solve. William J Murray
So, to you, premarital sex equals sex with 10 year olds?
I used this age to show you how bankrupt your idea was. ? I didn’t advocate it, you did. If one makes something normal, then there is no age limit to who will end up doing something considered normal. Please explain why 10 year olds will not end up doing this normal behavior jerry
WJM BTW, I appreciate the fact that you chose to ask the question and not just presume to tell me what it would mean under my own IRT.
I from IRT is from INSANITY? Sandy
KF asks:
WJM, if there is no distinction between a world in thought and one actualised, what would follow? KF
Under IRT, you'd experience exactly what you're experiencing right now. I've explained all this before, I'll do so again now beginning with the following definition of abstract:
existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.
Of course, under IRT physicality is a mental experience (which is, even otherwise, an inescapable existential fact.) All qualia, whether of thought, emotion, logic, math or "concrete physicality, are mental in nature. Thus, under IRT, all experience is abstract in nature, because it is (1) all in mind, and (2) there is no external, "concrete world" to provide for its current, generally understood meaning. However, there are different kinds of abstract experience. This is true even under non-IRT models. Logic is a different experience than memory. Imaginative fantasy is a different experience than emotion. Under IRT, "physicality" is just another category of abstract, mental experience. Thus, the term "abstract," under IRT, does not mean what it means under dualism or other ontological models; it would generally refer to all qualia except the category of qualia we normally call "the real, physical world." We successfully navigate different categories of qualia/abstract experience; this is true whether or not an external (of mind) physical world is theorized. BTW, I appreciate the fact that you chose to ask the question and not just presume to tell me what it would mean under my own IRT. However, the question is an odd one. Since I am proposing a theory of reality, of course that theory must accommodate what we're experiencing right now. Were you expecting a different answer than "what we're experiencing right now?" That would be the only possible answer I could give. William J Murray
SB @941, Charactering me, my "patterns," what I'm doing and why, isn't an argument. SB @943,
As usual, you are misusing terms. “
Terms, words and language are used to express ideas. Just because the idea I am using a term to express contrasts with how you would use that term to express your ideas, doesn't mean I am "misusing a term." You don't own the terms or how they can be used. Paige @940:
This ignores the power of persuasion, which can have a huge impact on what we consider “right”. Although, I guess persuasion can be categorized as a non-violent form of might.
I have in prior posts and comments more fully characterized what I mean by "might makes right," which includes any form of might - physical, persuasive, cunning, manipulation .... even voting in a democratic society is an expression of might makes right. Another reason it is all might makes right is because no matter how one establishes laws and rules, it is only by the might of the powerful that they are enforced, and the powerful, generally speaking, do not enforce it on themselves. Even if what is right is right by nature of God, we are all forced by God's might to live in and be subject to that system of right and wrong. It's always might that makes right. William J Murray
@Karen McMannus:
Masturbation: “natural evil” or not?
According to https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concept-evil/:
Natural evils are bad states of affairs which do not result from the intentions or negligence of moral agents.
I don't think masturbation qualify as a candidate for "natural evil". AndyClue
Paige, normal has two very different contexts which are too often conflated through failing to recognise the is-ought gap. That many people do what they ought not does not change the force of oughtness. Statistical estimates on opinion or behaviour are not a sound guide to what is sound as moral truth or guideline. And, while I have no desire to encourage yet another tangent, the pederasty of powerful pagan Greek men in relation to youth [and yes, the discussion of "love" in The Republic was about taste in boys, where also the chief deity in the pantheon Zeus/Jupiter had a catamite, Ganymede . . . reflected in the Galilean Moons] was a case of manifesting deep corruptions in the Greek-Roman culture. Indeed, it has been reported that of the first sixteen Roman Emperors, all but one played Jupiter, with Nero being historical exemplar for the currently popularly pushed newspeak on family. So, Jerry is quite right to point out that breakdown of respect for built in law does lead to ever deepening corruption driven by the nihilism of might and manipulation, with a Nero as illustration of where it ends. Suetonius's life of Nero tells the sad tale, and the less well known Caligula shows that this is not a one off extreme. The history also shows that the same Christians Nero began the practice of scapegoationg, burning, putting in the Arena, crucifying and beheading -- Paul's gravestone reads, Paulo, Apostolo, Mart -- championed the civilisational synthesis of the heritage of Jerusalem, Athens and Rome that broke decisively with pagan immorality. The result is history, as they say. But in that decisive break, we find a key point of agreement with major pagan thinkers such as Cicero, that there is a conscience-attested, built in governing moral law coeval with our humanity. The ought we know and too often suppress. KF PS: I cannot but note that you have not withdrawn your projections. That speaks and brings you to a limit. Withdraw the remarks or please withdraw from this thread. kairosfocus
Jerry
Once you advocate for pre-marital sex as normal behavior,...
I’m not advocating for it as normal behavior, I am just saying that it is normal behavior. In the US, 97% of people who have had sex, have had premarital sex. paige
KF
Paige, stop. I have very deliberately ignored your projections regarding onanism.
I had to look that one up. :) paige
Jerry
Once you advocate for pre-marital sex as normal behavior, there can be no limit on who that will apply to. So the twisted one is you.
So, to you, premarital sex equals sex with 10 year olds? As KF is fond of saying, “that speaks volumes, and not in your favor”. paige
Wow. What sort of twisted mind can extrapolate what I said to me promoting sex for 10 year olds?
Once you advocate for pre-marital sex as normal behavior, there can be no limit on who that will apply to. So the twisted one is you. You say lots of things without ever thinking them through. This is just another one. jerry
Paige, stop. I have very deliberately ignored your projections regarding onanism. You have proceeded to put words in my mouth to set up a strawman to scapegoat. This is on top of other dubious conduct. Withdraw those words, please. Not least, principled objection to wrong such as habitually being "untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail[ing] to soundly warrant claims, show[ing] a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanis[ing] and abus[ing] others, . . . [through] unfair[ness] and unjust[ice]" is not raillery. KF PS: Insofar as human nature includes moral government attested by sound conscience and manifested through first duties that even your arguments cannot evade -- we have been noting that time and again -- flouting that moral government is wrong, ill advised and a doorway to nihilistic chaos. Nor can the 1984 agit prop and lawfare -- or, ultimately, police state -- socio-technical systems "technology" of newspeak successfully turn darkness into light and light into darkness or crookedness into the standard of straightness. kairosfocus
Jerry
You are confusing modern technology with human natures as you lump in social changes with it.
No. I accept human nature. But I also accept that we don’t have to be governed by it. Any attempt to address societal mores and acceptable/ preferred behaviors while ignoring technology is doomed to failure.
One is changing rapidly with each day while the other probably has never changed..,
Human nature either adapts to changes or society falls apart. So far, I think we have done quite well, although there are big challenges.
...but also has never seen some of the changes you are recommending. You essentially recommended sex for 10 year olds
Wow. What sort of twisted mind can extrapolate what I said to me promoting sex for 10 year olds? I certainly wasn’t having sex at 10. But I did have sex at 16. I don’t regret my decision, although I am sure there are some who would. It is a personal choice that should only be made after you have sufficient factual information to make it. Or are you referring to the acceptance of masturbation? You and KF can rail against it all you want but it is something most people do. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, in countries that teach children that masturbation is normal, and teach fact-based sex Ed to children at an early age rather than abstinence based curriculum, have lower rates of STDs and teen pregnancies. http://www.mtv.com/news/2259573/6-countries-doing-sex-ed-better-than-america/ paige
Vivid, the US cannot be taken at this stage (as backstop, 100 million gun owners disposing of 300+ million guns and with trillions of rounds will stop the push cold when the breakpoint is reached where agitprop and lawfare operations face truly roused now implacable opposition of those seeing the crisis is existential*), but it can be reduced to distracted chaos opening the way for blue ocean breakout, with awful geostrategic consequences. As for those busily pushing newspeak based agendas under colour of law and the like, they don't realise they are already written off expendable cannon fodder for someone's ruthless schemes. Unfortunately, constitutional democracy is taking a huge hit as we speak. KF * PS: The breakpoint comes whenthe agitprop liars lose all credibility and face a critical mass who have reached the point where they will act with the sort of bet the farm attitude we last saw in June 1967 when the Israelis loaded the dice and put every stick that could fly into operation focus, backing it up with upgraded, largely obsolete second hand tanks. kairosfocus
Paige, the sound lessons of history were bought with blood and tears; those who neglect, reject, dismiss or deride such doom themselves to pay in the same coin, over and over and over again. Plato is a master and this very passage is so powerful that the ship of state metaphor is reflected in our word Government. That comes, via Latin, from Kubernetes, the steersman or sailing master who has the helm in his custody. As for, oh, it's ancient; that is not serious, those of your ilk are busily dismissing, suppressing or censoring lessons along these same lines from c 1914 on and esp since 1917. If it were not so sickening, I would laugh at how the Reichstag Fire play is being put over again as we speak. But I know too much about the kind of cost to be faced, in blood and tears. Voyages of folly predictably end in shipwreck. KF kairosfocus
KF “But I think you are going through the equivalent of the last half of 1942, Coral Sea, Midway to come, blended with the grinding attrition of a Guadalcanal.” I hope your right but I am less sanguine about the future. Mainly because of the power of propaganda and the indoctrination by our educational system that a generation has been subjected to along with the abject ignorance of the lessons of history. For instance I just watched major news channels demonize and shame white men because they are the ones who refuse to be vaccinated. What are the facts? The highest percentage of vaccinations are Asians at around 60% followed by whites at 40%, the lowest rate are African Americans at 27%.!! The media just spews one lie after another and millions will take their lies as the Gospel truth. BTW we all are aware of “white privilege” “white supremacy” “ white complicity” How many people know that this play was also acted out in China, the exact same thing although it was “Han privilege” “Han supremacy” “ Han complicity” all part of China’s cultural revolution. Sad to watch the rerun which will not end any differently, we are already seeing Chinese struggle sessions. Vivid vividbleau
Paige “Any more than I grieve for the downfall of the civilizations that supported segregation, anti-same sex marriage, xenophobia, prohibition of premarital sexual, or the demonizing of masturbation” Surely your not saying KF should support anti segregation, should not be anti same sex marriage, should not be xenophobic, should etc? Are you? Vivid vividbleau
Until you can use a comparison that is applicable to modern society, I will continue to ignore you.
You are confusing modern technology with human natures as you lump in social changes with it. One is changing rapidly with each day while the other probably has never changed but also has never seen some of the changes you are recommending. You essentially recommended sex for 10 year olds. Read about Ibn Khaldun’s concept of Asabiyyah. It will explain much of what you don’t understand. Aside: my assessment who may be the smartest person in history includes Ibn Khaldun. Also Ben Franklin, Socrates and Thomas Sowell. I’m sure others have their preferred candidates. jerry
KF, I am in favor of looking to history to discern future policy. But ancient history? Why don’t you reference something a little more recent? Ancient Athens is not modern day Fort Wayne. Athens didn’t have the internet. Athens didn’t have satellite TV. Athens didn’t have multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-religious context. At least, not what we have now. Athens didn’t have the 1st or 2nd amendment. Until you can use a comparison that is applicable to modern society, I will continue to ignore you. We have lower infant mortality, higher life expectancy, more acceptance/tolerance of homosexuality, less tolerance of intolerance that isn’t supported by real evidence, more tolerance of different religions, more acceptance of women’s rights, more acceptance of different sexual preferences, less tolerance of the application of religious prohibitions against those who don’t follow the same religion. I don’t see the downfall of civilization. Although, I do see the downfall of your idealized civilization. I don’t grieve for it. Any more than I grieve for the downfall of the civilizations that supported segregation, anti-same sex marriage, xenophobia, prohibition of premarital sexual, or the demonizing of masturbation. paige
Vivid, I hear you. I think the lessons are blended. The US has had its Pearl Harbour equivalent, a dirty form McFaul colour revolution, complete with red guards and now blending in a reichstag fire redolent of Martin Niemoller's lament. All of this is part of a 4th gen civil war tied into a global geostrategic contest, de facto WW IV, counting the Cold war -- as it should be -- as III. There is going to be a serious price to pay to the ferryman on the Styx, given China's blue ocean breakout that exploited the US civil conflict, and the mess with Iran's onward nuke push should not be discounted. A distracted, internally divided, nearly fatally disaffected USA fosters both. But I think you are going through the equivalent of the last half of 1942, Coral Sea, Midway to come, blended with the grinding attrition of a Guadalcanal. The bottom line is that the Kido Butai equivalent is a strategically overstretched glorified raiding force, without true power to take and hold the civilisation. Yes, key institutions have been subverted and a newspeak, agit prop, lawfare game is in force, with terrible havoc threatening with barbarians already in the gates, grown up but not soundly civilised due to the betrayal of trust by key institutions. The net result is grave damage and looming threat of a neobarbarian era if the nuke threat spins out of control. Democracy, science and medicine will take huge hits if that happens, neobarbs with C19 technology and population collapse to match. But the would be party elites of Oceania will not prevail, but will do a lot of damage. We do not face utter collapse so civilisation has to start from scratch in caves with neolithic or bronze age tech but utterly needless chaos, loss of liberty and a bitter long struggle to recover some of what is so foolishly being discarded. KF kairosfocus
Sorry, I am too young to remember ancient Athens.
But you do remember/know about
one thing I do know about ancient Athens was the acceptance of pedophilia
Interesting what some people focus on. I’ve read and listened to a lot of presentations on Ancient Greek civilization. Never heard this before but am always curious and want to learn new things. You should read more. Ancient Greece was an amazing place with or without pedophilia. jerry
Paige, truth is not told by the clock and the failure of Athenian democracy was the roadblock to democratisation until the late C17, i.e. for 2,000 years. That is how relevant Athens' failure is to our case today; without understanding Athens we will not value the breakthrough behind the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and its heir, the American one from 1776; then we will tamper with the cultural buttresses that stabilise constitutional democratic self government under sound law, to our detriment. The sound lessons of history were bought with blood and tears; those who neglect, dismiss or deride them doom themselves to pay in the same coin over and over and over again. Plato's Republic -- and the following parable of the ship of state set in context of the Peloponnesian war should be compulsory reading for every high schooler -- therefore is a sobering lesson:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
Lessons of history . . . KF kairosfocus
KF “WJM, the civilisation breakdown is manifestly already in progress. KF” In America we are well on our way to a totalitarian state if that is what you mean by a breakdown in civilization. We are at the Pearl Harbor stage and I do not think it’s recoverable. The blueprint laid out by Antonio Gramsci has long since past the tipping point. The parallels to China, the cultural revolution and Mao is there for anyone who has any understanding of history. Vivid vividbleau
My plan to save society is actually simple and doable. It is arranged for the creationist conceptual scheme to be taught in school, because it perfectly explains the difference between opinion and fact, which is already an established education goal. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact So then the students learn what an opinion is, and what a fact is. It is just the case that the concept of opinion is inconsistent with nazism and communism, and obviously all ideology based on materialism. And generally socialism is based on materialism. It is inconsistent with nazism, because nazi's assert as fact of biology what the personal character of someone is, while creationism says this is a matter of chosen opinion. It is inconsistent with communism, because communism asserts quality can be derived from quantity, while in creationism quality and quantity are categorically different. And my guess is that socialism in general is based on materialism, and could not really work based on creationism. Not as a nasty totalitarian system anyway, which denies the freedom of opinion, or the freedom of the consumer and the producer. The creationist conceptual scheme validates the chosen belief in God. It shows that it is logically valid to believe, eventhough it also shows that it is logically valid not to believe in God. So then the main obstacle to religion, which is the idea that God cannot be objectively measured, is thrown out. So then many students would choose to believe in God, because praying to God is clearly the perfect way to pay dedicated attention to subjective issues. And so through prayer to God, these students will make better personal opinions about what is right and wrong. And generally there would be an atmosphere in school to appreciate everthing spiritual. The human spirit, the groupspirit or schoolspirit. The creationist conceptual scheme would just function as a constitution. Not giving any prejudice which opinion is right, just only validating the concept of personal opinions. Generally students would become more spontaneous, and less controlled. Because the creationist conceptual scheme shifts the idea of choice from figuring out the best option, to the idea of choice as meaning to spontaneously make one of alternative futures the present. So then there are just the normal problems of greed, lust, laziness and whatever, and not these psycho problems of materialism and socialism. It's still possible to be a racist on creationist terms, just not in the sense of objectifying personal character. One could be a racist by speculating that there are heritable different ways that the decisionmaking processes are organized in the brain. And then group people according to those differences. mohammadnursyamsu
KF
since Ancient Athens’ failure through the Peloponnesian war,...
Sorry, I am too young to remember ancient Athens. Do you have something more recent, and more relevant, to modern society? Something that has to live with modern diversity, global travel, satellite communication, global media and the internet? Or do you want to get rid of all that? But the one thing I do know about ancient Athens was the acceptance of pedophilia. Is that really a role model you want to hitch your horse to? paige
WJM:
KF argues that unless we adopt en masse the ontology of duties and right reason, we are headed for the “civilizational catastrophe” of lawless oligarchy, or “might makes right.”
KF is exactly right.
WJM: He makes that argument as if every major civilization past and current has not been a might-makes-right lawless oligarchy.
No he doesn’t. KF recognizes that most systems were, indeed, might makes right lawless hierarchies. That is why he is arguing for the natural moral law, which is the only rational alternative.
He makes that case as if his own theological perspective is not a might-makes-right system at its root.
His theological perspective with respect to a well-ordered society is most definitely not a might makes right system. In the earlier days of the US Republic, the Declaration of Independence called for a legal system that conformed to natural law, one in which even the most powerful agents among us would be held accountable. That is KF’s position and it is also my position
We live as might-makes-right beings in an inescapably might-makes right existence, one way or another.
As usual, you are misusing terms. “Might makes right” has a specific meaning. It holds that those who have might (power), as opposed to the natural law, should determine what is right and wrong. It has nothing to do with your petty grievances about not being consulted before being created.
He (KF) makes that case as if nature itself was not entirely a might-makes-right system.
Nonsense. Nature does not try to shape societies or pass laws. Nature does not impose lawless Communism on a free society. Nature does not censor unwanted speech. Nature does not beat its political adversaries into a bloody pulp. Try to take one subject at a time, abandon your world view long enough to think things through, and then make your comments. StephenB
Paige, since Ancient Athens' failure through the Peloponnesian war, we have known that democracies are inherently unstable. In the centuries following the printing revolution, reformation and associated ferment, cultural buttresses were built up that allowed for stabilisation of constitutional democracy, so we could enjoy lawful freedom and linked progress in many ways. Unfortunately, as various hyperskeptical worldviews and cultural agendas have distilled into a cultural acid, that has been eaten away. Of course, many irk under what they imagine are oppressive restraints, but in material part they confuse licence and libertinism for liberty. As we speak, the BATNA of lawfulness is beginning to crumble, threatening to precipitate us back into lawless ideological oligarchy. Lawless oligarchy, historically, is the dominant form of government. It is particularly important that we see the rise of ideologies that reduce to nihilism and so in the end to force and deception. With the USA, a keystone to the system, as its navy does what once the Royal Navy did, guard the ocean routes, stabilising the world, it is going through a Reichstag fire episode, and yes, even Wiki is enough to warn -- why isn't how the Nazis actually seized power a standard part of our curriculum (with the same for the Bolsheviks anf Jacobins). The difference is, this is a global age and it is the leading states that are the centres of the impending disaster; this is like Rome's collapse in the W, vastly speeded up. And if the heart of civilisation is eaten out from within, you don't need barbarians at or in the gates, every rising generation has to be civilised afresh -- or else you face homegrown barbarians impervious to mere pleas to turn back to sanity. There is a lurking point in the parable of the prodigal son, a lesson for civilisation. That's why the corruption of education, media and thought leadership are at the core of the gathering storm. As for the rise of 1984 style newspeak, "change" sounds so much nicer than nihilistic chaos with ruthless, perverse oligarchs waiting in the wings. And more. KF kairosfocus
WJM to KF
From the first time I said anything about my IRT, KF has acted like he already knew everything there was to know about it, never asking a single question.
For my part, I have asked you a whole series of relevant questions and you dodged them all on the grounds that they were "personal" (as if your so-called IRT was anything other than personal). You simply will not engage with anyone who examines your world view in a critical way. When the probing begins, the dialogue ends and the subject changes. Part of your pattern is to shut down the discussion by making false claims about the "ontological premise" of your adversary. When I or KF rebut one of your arguments, you ignore the force of the logic and claim that it works only from the standpoint of our ontological premise and doesn't work from the standpoint of your ontological premise. Total nonsense. I have corrected this error many times, but that doesn't stop you from repeating it and, worse, attributing the error to KF. You have even tried to apply this illogical standard to the definitions of words. When your arguments have been shown to fail, you change the meaning of terms on the fly in order to escape rebuttal. On the subject of the natural moral law, for example, you avoid important discussions on the grounds that the words "objective morality" mean something different for you than they do for me. You resort to these and other tactics because, apparently, you would prefer to muddy the waters rather than argue in good faith. And we all know how much importance you attach to your preferences, don't we? StephenB
WJM
We live as might-makes-right beings in an inescapably might-makes right existence, one way or another.
This ignores the power of persuasion, which can have a huge impact on what we consider “right”. Although, I guess persuasion can be categorized as a non-violent form of might. KF
WJM, the civilisation breakdown is manifestly already in progress. KF</blockquote.) Civilization is changing, as it always has. But to say it is breaking down isn’t supported by the evidence.
paige
WJM, if there is no distinction between a world in thought and one actualised, what would follow? KF kairosfocus
WJM, the civilisation breakdown is manifestly already in progress. KF PS: There is a categorical distinction between principles make right and nihilistic might and manipulation make "right." Generally, it is those deprived of first moral principles who conflate the two. kairosfocus
But, to get back to the "civilizational threat" argument: KF argues that unless we adopt en masse the ontology of duties and right reason, we are headed for the "civilizational catastrophe" of lawless oligarchy, or "might makes right." He makes that argument as if every major civilization past and current has not been a might-makes-right lawless oligarchy. He makes that case as if his own theological perspective is not a might-makes-right system at its root. He makes that case as if nature itself was not entirely a might-makes-right system. He makes that case as if his own proposed system in not a might-makes-right system. We live as might-makes-right beings in an inescapably might-makes right existence, one way or another. William J Murray
KM, in my response to WJM, I use his ontology not mine, ..
KF says he was using my ontology. After months of repeatedly telling him that he does not understand it because he keeps trying to translate it into what it means under his ontology; after pointing out again and again where and how he is wrong about what my ontology stipulates, and after months of never asking me a single question about my ontology, KF says he was using my ontology to make his argument. Mind-boggling. I literally spent weeks asking KF question after question trying to understand his ontological perspective concerning "duties," and have to admit that I still don't understand what he's talking about or how he justifies claims about "duties" unless they are entirely derived from the theological aspect of his ontology. I spent weeks trying to understand BA77's argument and evidence about geo-centrism, asking question, looking over evidence, etc. I spent a considerable amount of time privately asking UB questions about the instantiation of the semiotic system in our cells. These were difficult concepts to understand. From the first time I said anything about my IRT, KF has acted like he already knew everything there was to know about it, never asking a single question. William J Murray
Vivid, the interesting issue is, what warps intellectual vision, why. The emergence of an undercurrent of selective hyperskepticism and linked dismissiveness with overtones of attitude, may be telling us something about the path of a civilisation in deep trouble. I suspect we forget the inherent instability of democracies and the breakthrough that cultural buttresses provided. A slide back into likely lawless, ideologically driven oligarchy is most ill-advised. And yet, lawless oligarchy, historically, is the dominant form of government. I suspect the consensus that we must not breach the BATNA of lawfulness is breaking down. Not, a happy thought. KF PS: Notice the shift to loaded language to describe what even leading objectors acknowledge is the c 35 - 38 summary of the official testimony of the C1 church, in Jerusalem, "story." That speaks volumes, especially in aftermath of a generation of minimal facts scholarship. kairosfocus
KM, in my response to WJM, I use his ontology not mine, and if he redefines the concept of the divine to exclude omniscience, that would be highly significant given longstanding philosophical issues on say the demiurge, though obviously not in the dualistic context Plato used. KF PS: As to your latest distractor, where the issues being addressed live is roots of law and freedom, nature of knowledge as an aspect of free mind prone to error, etc. All of which are of significant civilisational import in a day of obvious mutiny-led voyage of folly on the ship of state. As to matters of lust and self-indulgence, objectifying the other even in thought is an obvious breakdown relative to an equivalent form of the CI. The habit of such objectification lies at the root of many evils, not least, nihilistic highly machiavellian behaviour etc. kairosfocus
Now, what I think would be interesting is a new thread: Masturbation: "natural evil" or not? Let's get down to where you folks really live. Karen McMannus
KF: KM, you overlook... Time and time again, WJM has told you, your ontological premises make the difference. Astonishing that you can't see that. Unless.... well, you're a troll. You. Just. Don't. Get. It. And we laugh and we laugh. Karen McMannus
Jerry @922 Hehe. Says you. Hehehe. Karen McMannus
KFf re 926 You are asking the blind to see. Vivid vividbleau
“In my view that hardly warrants belief in the story.” This coming from someone who appeals to a non peered review opinion piece in Nature as evidence that anyone who suggests that COVID 19 could have come e from a lab in Wuhan are conspiracy theorists and xenophobic. BTW Sev I asked you this on the COVID thread but you never answered which is typical but I will ask again. Who were the three people that contacted the virus in November 2019 associated with? Vivid vividbleau
Paige, you are simply ducking the consequences of being exposed using loaded language, bias. You are unable to show that idiosyncracies of bias led me to recognise the manifest impact of Gettier counter-examples on epistemology, you cannot credibly argue given citations from professionals above, that Plantinga is not a suitably eminent philosopher, or that his two track approach on warrant had no significant impact. Nor, can you show that my modifications to include addressing a weak form sense of knowledge (based on defeasibility of scientific knowledge claims etc) are inappropriate. As for sneering at the is-ought gap, that speaks for itself, not in your favour given other comments and positions taken above. Resort to loaded language on your part was a rhetorical stunt, failed. We are subjects with error-prone perspectives, that is why first principles and duties of reason exerted towards warrant, can confer a degree of objectivity in many cases, leading to recognition of knowledge as warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. This recognition still stands. KF kairosfocus
KM, you overlook the structural reason behind the chaotic consequences of evil, highlighted through Kant's CI. Namely, that evils are a frustration, privation, perversion of the good away from its due [often naturally evident] ends. So, it is not mere dismissible consequences but the warpedness of evil that is manifested in consequences you so cleverly try to dismiss. The evil is not fit for purpose, but as a parasitical element can gain temporary advantages. For example the proper end of communication is reliable truth toward our due thriving. Were lying to become widespread, community would disintegrate, leading to chaos. KF kairosfocus
Sev, Paul recorded the C1 church's official testimony from c 35 - 38 AD, as the creedal structure and historical context make plain; of these we can pin names on about two dozen. The 500 core witnesses are real and the dog doesn't bark moment is that not one was broken, in face of dungeon, fire, sword and worse [much harsher than lawyer games]. Indeed, when it comes to trial before Roman and Jewish authorities in the province, Paul appealed to his judge's knowledge of the facts that were not done in a corner. Your pretzel-twisting hyperskeptical dismissiveness cannot change that. KF kairosfocus
Seversky
If I remember correctly, the only reference to an appearance before a crowd of 500 is in Paul. None of the other New Testament sources mention it and we certainly don’t have affidavits from any in that crowd testifying to what they saw. In my view that hardly warrants belief in the story.
That was my understanding as well. But I will also be the first to admit that I haven’t read every ancient text. It reminds me of the claim of 500 people witnessing the levitating priest. One person saying that he and 500 others witnessed an event isn’t 501 eyewitness testimonies. It is one eyewitness testimony. paige
Kairosfocus/898
This is an abstract condition, and there is confident reason to see that it does not hold, ” 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead [with 500 direct eyewitnesses and millions transformed by living encounter with the risen Christ through penitent faith], the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.”
If I remember correctly, the only reference to an appearance before a crowd of 500 is in Paul. None of the other New Testament sources mention it and we certainly don't have affidavits from any in that crowd testifying to what they saw. In my view that hardly warrants belief in the story. Seversky
Karen McMannus Invalid appeal to consequences.
Hahaha. This is your line when you will sit in front of God ? The moral law in entirety is appeal to consequences. Even you profess a moral law teaching us there is no moral law. :)) Sandy
Invalid appeal to consequences
One of the more stupidest replies I ever seen. Because my family will probably die from the chaos is an invalid appeal. Thank you for your support of my point.
“Duty” is a technical legal term that pertains to contractual obligations.
Duty is the translation of what Cicero used. It’s an ancient concept. jerry
KF
Paige, the matter is one of serious philosophy not my idiosyncrasies.
I didn't use the word idiosyncrasies. We all have our own beliefs and, yes, they probably include some idiosyncrasies, but that doesn't make our beliefs any less important to us.
Your resort to such a loaded insinuation as bias, is patently unwarranted and inappropriate.
It was not an insinuation. It was a statement of fact. Unless, of course, you feel that your personal philosophy is the only one in the world that is not affected by your personal biases. You really have to stop taking things so personally.
The root problem, likely is that you struggle with the reality that there is objective knowledge turning on adequate warrant, in general.
Your problem is that you spend more time telling other people what their problems are than you do trying to understand why they believe what they believe. At no time have I ever said that objectively true knowledge does not exist. Why do you keep repeating this falsehood?
Then, in particular on morality/duty issues.
I also have not problem with moral duties. We all have them. We develop them and modify them as we grow and obtain experience and broader knowledge. I wasn't born with them. I developed them through teaching, repetition, positive and negative feedback, conditioned response, etc.
I should note, that the denial of objective moral truth is implicitly an objective truth claim on matters of ought, and so is self referentially incoherent.
Frankly, the IS-OUGHT nonsense just a bunch of navel-gazing. It is an attempt to impart justification (warrant)on what we as a society try to prohibit others from doing.
It is undeniably true that there are objective moral truths.
I know that you believe this, but you haven't come even close to proving it. Society imposes laws in an attempt to paige
Jerry: If everyone held this attitude there would be massive chaos and death. Invalid appeal to consequences. Moreover, there have been large loss of life when people rebel. It happened during the Revolutionary War, for example. Did Americans have the "duty" to keep on obeying the British crown lest there be "chaos and death?" Perhaps "affirmed by the will" is a better choice of words in my prior statement. It's the way everyone operates. One is born into their contexts with a bunch of demands ("laws" and "decrees") place on them, and everyone has the choice to obey a particular demand or not. The act of not affirming a demand is nothing, until one acts, which is then rebellion. People are constantly rebelling. Every time you drive over the speed limit you are rebelling. Consequences vary for the demand. Those who can enforce a demand do so by their power. Throwing the word "duty" onto this state of human affairs buys nothing and explains nothing. There are demands made by those in power; there are consequences enforced by those in power; there is the choice to obey or not; there are the meting out of consequences or not by those in power. It's a might makes right setup, and "duty" explains nothing. "Duty" is a technical legal term that pertains to contractual obligations. Under the law if I assent to a contract, I have the legal "duty" to abide it. Otherwise, "duty" is just some imaginary abstraction in your philosophy. There is no such thing as a "natural duty." The foundation of the human condition is power and will. All the squabbling is over whose will shall be done. Karen McMannus
It was called the “martyrs of the race course “ because the bodies were from a race track that was part of a POW camp vividbleau
Way way off topic but so cool #Maj Tour “MemorialDay  was started by Black Americans on May, 1, 1865 in Charleston, SC to honor 257 dead Union Soldiers. The soldiers had been buried in a mass grave in a Confederate prison camp. They dug up the bodies and worked for weeks to give them a proper burial as gratitude.” They then held a parade of 10,000 people led by 2,800 black children where they marched, sang and celebrated. Today, Americans everywhere “pledge their allegiance to the flag” in honor of those who sacrificed everything for the freedom of a nation. This commemoration was organized by freed Black folks and white missionaries. In the approximately 10 days leading up to the event, roughly two dozen African American Charlestonians reorganized the graves into rows with an archway spelling out “Martyrs of the Race Course.” This tribute, gave birth to an American tradition. The war was over, and Memorial Day had been founded by African Americans in a ritual of remembrance and consecration. Happy Memorial Day to ALL who served and gave. Compliments of Maj Tour Founder of Black Guns Matter Vivid vividbleau
Paige, the matter is one of serious philosophy not my idiosyncrasies. My contribution, of rather modest scope, is to note that there are weak form senses of knowledge, and the root for that is observations on the history of knowledge claims in science. Those weak form uses of knowledge are readily observable, and the post Gettier debates are well documented. Your resort to such a loaded insinuation as bias, is patently unwarranted and inappropriate. The root problem, likely is that you struggle with the reality that there is objective knowledge turning on adequate warrant, in general. Then, in particular on morality/duty issues. I should note, that the denial of objective moral truth is implicitly an objective truth claim on matters of ought, and so is self referentially incoherent. It is undeniably true that there are objective moral truths. KF kairosfocus
Jerry
The discussions on truth here depend zero on Christian belief. So why bring it up?
Of course they depend on our beliefs, whether they be Christian, Hindu or atheist. Our search for truths involve certain assumptions and premises, which are informed by our beliefs. paige
It is bleedingly obvious that the particular evil we are dealing with is called "materialism". It is also bleedingly obvious that the error in materialism is that it only validates the concept of objectivity, fact, and it provides no accommodation whatsoever for subjectivity, personal opinion, emotions. Leading to emotionally bereft people, coldhearted calculating monsters. Not people who incidentally are prone to greed, or lust, or some other sin, but people who systematically do evil things, who systematically have horrible personal opinions. Makes perfect sense. If you don't accommodate the concept of personal opinion on the intellectual level, then you will have horrible personal opinions. There is normal evil like greed, lust, and whatever. And those kinds of evils are more than a handful for any life, or society. Materialism is a different kind of evil. It is more of the criminally insane type of evil. Of people who commit horrendous crimes, while trying idealistically to do good. People who have subverted the meaning of "good", to make it factual, calculating and measuring. Make it scientific. Without any subjective reference to either the human spirit, or God the holy spirit. And the obivous solution is to teach the difference between opinion and fact in school, the creationist conceptual scheme. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Having learned the creationist conceptual scheme, then materialism and it's political application of socialism, would be destroyed. Then you would still have all the ordinary evil left of greed and lust, and whatever, which is to be dealt with by religion, and a hodgepodge of moralities, and laws. mohammadnursyamsu
But this is getting off topic.
But yet you bring it up. There has been one short thread on the Resurrection here. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/moving-beyond-covid-crazy-is-there-evidence-for-jesuss-resurrection/#comment-731727 So I suggest you post there and see if anyone answers you. I just made a short reply. The discussions on truth here depend zero on Christian belief. So why bring it up? Kf uses Cicero and Greeks before Christ. Kant is also a good example. He's hardly a great example of Christianity. jerry
KF
I note that knowledge in much common usage eg science, is defeasible thus weak form. I adjusted Plantinga’s second track for that weak form, from title of OP on. This has nothing directly to do with, say my being a Nicene Creed Christian believer. It does have a lot to do with duties to truth, right reason, prudence etc, but these are self-evident as inescapably authoritative, eg your objections just now intend to suggest that I am failing to do duty to truth and right reason;
I am not arguing with the concept of warrant of justification, just that your beliefs bias the way you apply it. This is not a criticism of you as we are all affected by bias. If I have a criticism of you it is that you refuse to admit that your application of logic may be affected by your beliefs.
This is an abstract condition [my request of KF about what would convince him that his version of Goad is incorrect], and there is confident reason to see that it does not hold, ” 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead [with 500 direct eyewitnesses and millions transformed by living encounter with the risen Christ through penitent faith], the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”
You state that the Bible tells you what would be necessary for Christians to disbelieve, i.e., the resurrection. And then make a claim that there were 500 witnesses to the resurrection. I am sure that this has been pointed out to you before but were there actually 500 witnesses, or were there one or two who claim that there were 500 witnesses? Do you have links to any of these 500 documented attestations? Personally, I believe that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that a person like Jesus existed. By this I mean a young man who ministered and developed a loyal following. And that this eventually resulted in Christianity. And I although with less evidence, I think it is sufficient to conclude that he was executed. But I don't think there is sufficient compelling evidence to conclude that he resurrected. But this is getting off topic. paige
The troll is on to new gobbledygook. Are other commenters just as responsible for this nonsense by answering it. Might want to read my comment at #10. jerry
So: my IRT is that existence is entirely abstract in nature. Experiences are abstract. I myself am an abstract entity as a particular, "local" or "identifiable" loci of consciousness ,meaning that a particular set of absracta provide for and inform my sense of self-and-other, which provides my perspective, or "location," so to speak. There is no actual "space-time" continuum other than my abstract experience of abstracta that provides for and informs my self-other perspective. The experience of some sort of space-time continuum is essential for the experience of being a sentient being with free will (to identify self and other, and to provide for the experience of sequential, coherent thought by which even rudimentary self-other awareness can even be acquired.) William J Murray
KF said:
WJM, you invited the issue through going to a thought-verse model.
I invite all kinds of responses by posting any comment whatsoever here, including those by Jerry and Sandy. So? It doesn't mean the response comes from understanding.
The power and mind at centre of such a scheme contemplates all possible worlds [so, all contingencies], just by being omniscient, a core property of the divine.
That depends on what you mean by "contemplate" and "omniscient." At the root is consciousness, which provides for infinite information as potential. However, that consciousness as such cannot "know" or "contemplate" that abstract potential in any ordinary sense of those words under my IRT.
Once there is no distinction between thought and actualisation,
Depends on what you mean by "actualisation." Under my MRT, actualsation = individual-specific experience; it doesn't make the experience "non-abstract" or the potential information "non-abstract."
the problems of the infini-verse forked at every decision node appear and are inescapable.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
This reduces subsidiary mind to this particular twig in the infinitely branched tree, i.e. all alternative contingencies are there on other branches so “choice” is a matter of location not genuine decision;
Under IRT, location = perspective, meaning the totality of abstracta the individual is experiencing, including self and other. Of course free will capacity (defined as "intention" in IRT) is confined to one's perspective. which includes their concept of self and other, what they can and cannot, from their perspective, intend.
... another version of you went down each alternative branch at every fork there is.
It might be better in this case to say that a version of me necessarily exists in those possible potentials or else I would have no possible range of choices. This is self-evident from the perspective of infinite, timeless, space-less abstract potential. If I did not exist in abstract in every possible potential (relative to my "self;" what "self" is under IRT is important to this,) then I could not experience free will at all. My path would be determined by the non-existence of abstract versions of my "self" in those potentials. IOW, if abstract versions of self/other "me's" did not exist in potential, no motion or thought would even be possible. All of that necessarily exists as abstract situations in potential. My free will represents my inherent capacity to experience any of those available abstract situations within an important conceptual parameter: what "me," or "self," the "I" represents. William J Murray
Jerry, we have discussed Kant and the associated golden rule, in fact duty to neighbour thus fairness and justice are the direct correlatives of the GR/CI, as is the concept of evil as a chaotic parasite on what is good but open to those with freedom of choice, so can be frustrated, twisted away from proper end, reduced to the willful chaos properly pictured as ge henna, an ill-managed, spontaneous combustion and parasite-riddled dump. Unfortunately, that too will be stoutly resisted by who we are dealing with as objectors across time. KF PS: To see my point, here is a clip from "the judicious Hooker" as cited by Locke in formulating the frame of sound government in Ch 2 Sec 5 of his 2nd Treatise on civil govt:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 sec. 5:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . " and 13: "9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . " Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
Look back over the years and we will see much the same evasions, side tracks and objections. There is no alternative but to have a stand up, grinding intellectual battle of attrition on the point. Our civilisation is manifestly at stake and this is the hill to die on. kairosfocus
Kf, I would put Cicero on the back burner and take up Kant.
never make an exception of yourself
Specifically the Categorical Imperative vs the Hypothetical Imperative
Morality, by contrast, is NOT optional. All moral agents are obligated to act morally all the time. (Who should do the right thing? Everyone. When should they do the right thing? Always. Where should they do the right thing? Everywhere. Etc.) Thus, morality (the Moral Law) is a Categorical Imperative. That is, it applies to all moral agents, at all time, in all places, without exception. Moral law is not a hypothetical imperative.
You (morally) ought to follow the CI no matter what you might want. Hypothetical Imperatives are empirical, i.e., discovered through experience. Categorical Imperatives are known a priori according to Kant. They are discovered by means of practical reason, not by experience.
Then
I must always do what duty requires of me and I must always refrain from doing what duty forbids. Now, if doing some act “y” is neither required nor forbidden by moral law, one does not have to do it, but may if one wishes (morally permissible, but not obligatory.
This is where Murray’s ice cream preferences come in. As society becomes technologically more proficient and hunger is no longer an issue these types of actions become more prevalent and harmless. But for most ot the world pre 1950 they were only an occasional option. Apparently some cannot see the difference. Ibn Khaldun’s concept os Asabiyyah sums it up. As a society becomes more advanced a privileged few make exceptions of themselves and this eventually leads to the disintegration of the society. Murray is typical of someone who wants to make an exception of himself. jerry
WJM, you invited the issue through going to a thought-verse model. The power and mind at centre of such a scheme contemplates all possible worlds [so, all contingencies], just by being omniscient, a core property of the divine. Once there is no distinction between thought and actualisation, the problems of the infini-verse forked at every decision node appear and are inescapable. This reduces subsidiary mind to this particular twig in the infinitely branched tree, i.e. all alternative contingencies are there on other branches so "choice" is a matter of location not genuine decision; another version of you went down each alternative branch at every fork there is. This forms one of those intellectual acids that aggressively undermines rationality, warrant, knowledge claims etc. KF PS: At east the thought-verse does not face the problem of physical plenitude, where does the energy-mass and space-time come from to form the many worlds branched at each fork? kairosfocus
WJM Your apparent utter lack of humility, charitability and respect is mind-boggling.
:) In MRT humility, charitability and respect are illusions. Sandy
Jerry, Kant's universalisability form of his Categorical Imperative is powerful in exposing the problem that evil parasites on the bulk of community overwhelmingly not acting like that. There is need to realise as well what freedom is as an aspect of our nature, how it must be governed by ought, then how it manifests in civil liberty in lawful community. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
WJM, as choices imply alternatives your snapshot points to forking at decision nodes. SB spots the same, in effect. The result is reduction of choice to which branch of the infini-verse one happens to be on.
This is demonstrative of what I've been talking about. I use a couple of analogies to give KM a general sense of how a resolution to the creation timeline dilemma might be understood, which would indicate that time is a personal experience, not a flow of the physical universe, and suddenly you think you understand the ontology well enough to render judgement on the logic of the analogies in correlation to the ontology. You didn't bother to ask any questions, like, "how does one have free will in the system you're using these analogies to describe, because from the analogies I don't see how it would exist?"
And logic is independent of ontology, so long as one recognises that distinct thoughts and import thus implication exists. Socrates is a man, Socrates is mortal, . . .
Socrates being mortal is not the premise here. An existential ontology is the premise. If you don't understand the premise, you're not in a position to make any logical inferences and conclusions; you're in a position to ask further questions if something I say appears to lead to a logical problem. Do I need to do your work for you, SB and KF? If either of you would stop defending and promoting and lecturing your own worldview for a minute, and tried to be at least somewhat charitable, rational and respectful, here's how you might proceed: "WJM, I realize you're using analogies to get across an ontological concept that is difficult to fully understand. How would Free Will operate in your model?" I won't hold my breath. It's like the two of you think you know everything about everything, even entire ontological concepts other people have, their motivations, their thoughts, etc. Your apparent utter lack of humility, charitability and respect is mind-boggling. William J Murray
There is no such thing as “duty” except for commitments made in the context of a contract. No such thing as a “default duty.” No such thing as “morals” or “ethics” except for those agreed upon by the will.
Pure nonsense. If everyone held this attitude there would be massive chaos and death. Only possible for those who are parasites. Unless like Murray it’s only about your ice cream flavors. jerry
F/N: Webster's, 1828, counsels:
LIB'ERTY, noun [Latin libertas, from liber, free.] 1. Freedom from restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or mind. The body is at liberty when not confined; the will or mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions. 2. Natural liberty consists in the power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature. It is a state of exemption from the control of others, and from positive laws and the institutions of social life. This liberty is abridged by the establishment of government. 3. Civil liberty is the liberty of men in a state of society, or natural liberty so far only abridged and restrained, as is necessary and expedient for the safety and interest of the society, state or nation. A restraint of natural liberty not necessary or expedient for the public, is tyranny or oppression. civil liberty is an exemption from the arbitrary will of others, which exemption is secured by established laws, which restrain every man from injuring or controlling another. Hence the restraints of law are essential to civil liberty. The liberty of one depends not so much on the removal of all restraint from him, as on the due restraint upon the liberty of others. In this sentence, the latter word liberty denotes natural liberty. 4. Political liberty is sometimes used as synonymous with civil liberty But it more properly designates the liberty of a nation, the freedom of a nation or state from all unjust abridgment of its rights and independence by another nation. Hence we often speak of the political liberties of Europe, or the nations of Europe. 5. Religious liberty is the free right of adopting and enjoying opinions on religious subjects, and of worshiping the Supreme Being according to the dictates of conscience, without external control. 6. Liberty in metaphysics, as opposed to necessity, is the power of an agent to do or forbear any particular action, according to the determination or thought of the mind, by which either is preferred to the other. Freedom of the will; exemption from compulsion or restraint in willing or volition. 7. Privilege; exemption; immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant; with a plural. Thus we speak of the liberties of the commercial cities of Europe. 8. Leave; permission granted. The witness obtained liberty to leave the court. 9. A space in which one is permitted to pass without restraint, and beyond which he may not lawfully pass; with a plural; as the liberties of a prison.
kairosfocus
PS: Let me again document what you are so eager to reject and dismiss, which rejection is now plainly seen as reduced to absurdity:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable . . . first duties of reason: "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,
1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.
Likewise, we observe again, that objectors to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction,while also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are first principles of rational, responsible, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
Somewhere, the ghost of Cicero is shaking his head sadly. kairosfocus
KM, that you see yourself as not under built-in government of ought implies that you see a major feature of conscious mindedness, conscience (which directly testifies to the opposite), as grand delusion; directly implying discredit of the mind, thus of rationality, knowledge and other claims -- there are no firewalls between facets of our self aware, responsibly and rationally free, en-conscienced inner lives. Further, your statement "[there is n]o such thing as “morals” or “ethics” except for those agreed upon by the will" is tantamount to affirmation of Nietzschean will to power anti-ethics, i.e. nihilism. BTW, so soon as you point to another and accuse or insinuate breach of first duties or expect implicit acknowledgement of core first duties -- implicit in your intended to be corrective assertions, you reduce yourself to incoherence. This is the sort of brink I earlier pleaded to reconsider. KF kairosfocus
There is no such thing as "duty" except for commitments made in the context of a contract. No such thing as a "default duty." No such thing as "morals" or "ethics" except for those agreed upon by the will. Karen McMannus
Paige, warrant as long since documented from professional literature arose from the impact of Gettier counter examples in 1963. From this there has been no final settlement. That is typical of philosophy, which operates on comparative difficulties of alternatives. Plantinga made a two-track contribution across three volumes of professional work. First track, definition by bill of requisites, second being a theory of warrant, addressed to strong form knowledge. I note that knowledge in much common usage eg science, is defeasible thus weak form. I adjusted Plantinga's second track for that weak form, from title of OP on. This has nothing directly to do with, say my being a Nicene Creed Christian believer. It does have a lot to do with duties to truth, right reason, prudence etc, but these are self-evident as inescapably authoritative, eg your objections just now intend to suggest that I am failing to do duty to truth and right reason; albeit without just cause for such a suggestion. As for the attempt to pose naive falsificationism, just note that core beliefs are always embedded in matrices involving auxiliary frameworks leading to the Lakatos issue that anomalies attach to the cluster. KF PS: As to the condition on which a Christian would legitimately cease from such, the answer is there in Paul's 1 Ep Cor, 15:
"13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised . . . 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."
This is an abstract condition, and there is confident reason to see that it does not hold, " 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead [with 500 direct eyewitnesses and millions transformed by living encounter with the risen Christ through penitent faith], the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." kairosfocus
KF keeps claiming that his “warrant” is independent of his Christian belief. This raises the question, “what evidence (or lack of evidence) would convince you that your Version of God is incorrect?” paige
Sev, there is a whole other branch of logic of evidential support, inductive reasoning. Deductive arguments, on standard terms can be valid and beyond, sound. They can be valid but unsound, they can be formally or informally invalid, in particular cases fallacious as persuasive but untrustworthy or unreliable. KF kairosfocus
WJM, as choices imply alternatives your snapshot points to forking at decision nodes. SB spots the same, in effect. The result is reduction of choice to which branch of the infini-verse one happens to be on. And logic is independent of ontology, so long as one recognises that distinct thoughts and import thus implication exists. Socrates is a man, Socrates is mortal, . . . KF kairosfocus
StephenB Don't worry . WJM is just a troll . Humor is necessary. Sandy
The problem with logic PUBLISHED 19 JAN 2014 by John S. Wilkins
[…]
The point of logic is that if you have true premises and your argument is logically correct, then the conclusion must be true, and you are irrational if you admit both that the premises are true and the argument is correct, but the conclusion is false. This is obvious on reflection. A rational person accepts these “sound” arguments as giving the truth. What Spock ought to have been saying all those episodes is that the reasoning he was objecting to was “irrational”. Arguments, though, in themselves, are never true or false. They are at best valid (meaning, the logic is correct). And as the truth of the premises depends upon the agreement of the persons arguing (we sometimes call these agreed premises), it may be that a valid argument does not give you a true conclusion, because in fact the premises are not themselves true – they might be falsely thought to be true by both sides, or they may be vague, or they may be open to several interpretations.
Seversky
SB said:
Excuse me, but this is total nonsense. A statement either makes logical sense or it doesn’t. The rules for deductive reasoning do not vary depending on one’s ontological perspective.
The rules don't change. The implications and conclusions change when you change the premises. I don't see how one could more significantly change the premises than by beginning with an entirely different ontology. William J Murray
KF to WJM:
the logic is clear
WJM to KF
I assume you’re saying that as an apparent rebuttal of something I’ve said. But, I never said any such thing. “Worlds forking at decision nodes” would require linear time to be something other than a personal experience, which is how I have clearly and explicitly made my argument.
I think KF has a point. As I recall, you ruled out time flow in principle by reducing it to an instantaneous experience. As you put it,
Now, most thought about “an experience” is thought of as a series of “moment-by-moment” sequential experiences in the “now.” But the fact is, all we ever experience is our “now.” Even memories are an experiential aspect of our “now.”
and again,
IOW, “flow of time” is an aspect of the experience of the photo, just like the colors and forms in the photo. Thus, the experience of time is like the experience of a color in a photograph. It’s not a thing our experiences operate within or under, it is an aspect of our instantaneous experience of our entire, existential “photo.”
That last sentence says it all, and the key word is “instantaneous.” The problem doesn’t end there, though. Later on, we get this: WJM
KF keeps making this same mistake even though he has been apprised of it several times. Logical implications that are valid, epistemologically speaking, from his ontology are not likely valid under other ontologies because they don’t begin with the same ontological premises.
Excuse me, but this is total nonsense. A statement either makes logical sense or it doesn’t. The rules for deductive reasoning do not vary depending on one’s ontological perspective. StephenB
KM: "
And some people think the marvelous Creator will torment people forever,"
According to that tradition, human souls are not made of matter, that is, they have no physical parts and cannot, therefore, disintegrate or die. Thus, they must live forever in some place of state of existence, which will be the one that that they choose. To be totally separated from God is to experience torture, but there are many, apparently, who would prefer to force that separation if they cannot, themselves, be God. StephenB
Sandy said:
Where are the servers who control your joke teory of MRT? There is no one who don’t smiles at your folly.
Eh....what? Is this a Zen koan? William J Murray
WJM Yes, you’re perfectly willing to live with an unexplained, fundamental logical contradiction at the root of your worldview; but if you think other views have such an unexplained contradiction, it represents a fatal flaw to their entire model.
:) Where are the servers who control your joke teory of MRT? There is no one who don't smiles at your folly. Sandy
To make a claim about free will (or lack thereof) in my ontology, one would have to know what "free will," "existence," "time," "experience," "potential," "now," "past," "change," and "future" mean in my ontology. KF certainly does not know these things, so when he says "the logic is clear," he cannot possibly be making an assessment of the logic that extends from my ontology. KF keeps making this same mistake even though he has been apprised of it several times. Logical implications that are valid, epistemologically speaking, from his ontology are not likely valid under other ontologies because they don't begin with the same ontological premises. I understand you don't have the time or inclination to understand my ontology, KF, but you might want to stop making claims about it as if you know what you are talking about. William J Murray
WJM, the logic is clear, ...
Logic, which is a part of epistemology, extends from and is framed in ontology. The concept you have expressed, "a world fork at every decision node means ..." is an expression of a particular ontology, that there are "worlds" that "fork" at "decision nodes." I assume you're saying that as an apparent rebuttal of something I've said. But, I never said any such thing. "Worlds forking at decision nodes" would require linear time to be something other than a personal experience, which is how I have clearly and explicitly made my argument. You're responding to someone else's ontology, not mine, so your "clear logic" is not even about anything I've argued. William J Murray
WJM, the logic is clear, a world fork at every decision node means choice is an illusion based on what chain of forks from the infinity we happen to be looking at and even that is caught up in the loop. No real choice, no credible rationality or warrant, etc leading to grand delusion yet again. Fail. KF kairosfocus
SB said:
Your thesis is refuted and there should be nothing more to say about it.
As I said, it's not my intention to talk you out of your beliefs, and I realize that cannot be done anyway. It was a pleasure having the conversation, and I appreciate your time. KF said:
potentiality is not to be conflated with the actualised. That road leads to self-referential destruction of choice, thence rationality.
That all depends on one's ontology and, I am sure, that is all true in yours.
As for eternality as a mode of being, I am not obligated to provide a detailed model to accept its reality,
Yes, you're perfectly willing to live with an unexplained, fundamental logical contradiction at the root of your worldview; but if you think other views have such an unexplained contradiction, it represents a fatal flaw to their entire model. William J Murray
Karen McClownnus And some people think the marvelous Creator will torment people forever Aren’t you embarrassed by that idea? What a horrible thing to think about the Real Creator. Shame on you.
Haha, you should be ashamed because you belive in an unjust god who would let Hitler in Heaven to enjoy with his victims. You should be ashamed because your god is an immoral god ignoring the very moral law Himself gave it to the people to conduct themselves in this world and will let unrepented criminals god haters hedonists in Heaven getting same rewards like people who dedicated their life to God or has been killed for God . Your god is a joke. Sandy
KM, strawman, already addressed, just studiously side-stepped because of appeal to emotional polarisation. Resort to such a distractor despite it having been addressed suggests want of substance on the merits for the claims you wish to advance; they are not moving on their own strength. A clue, especially when you know this is not a theology-exegesis forum, and you have been advised to take concerns you may have to those fora that are better equipped and situated to delve on such. I just, again note, the doors of hell so to speak are locked and bolted from the inside, as we can readily see from descents to hell on earth, as my homeland has experienced, as Germany experienced from 1933 on, as Russia from 1917 on, as China too, and as the US is currently experiencing. I note, climbing back up the cliff having broken your back after a needless, heedless fall, is a very different challenge from dancing irresponsibly on the slope of a crumbling cliff despite abundant sign-posted warnings. Refusal to freely acknowledge and live by the inescapable authority of (thus, self-evident and pervasive) first duties of reason leads to the Categorical Imperative's descent into mutually ruinous chaos, the mis-managed chaos of the valley of Hinnom; ge henna. KF kairosfocus
And some people think the marvelous Creator will torment people forever Aren't you embarrassed by that idea? What a horrible thing to think about the Real Creator. Shame on you. Karen McMannus
WJM:
;Everything anyone can ever do or think or choose is already present in the potential, otherwise it cannot occur. Every possible thing simultaneously exists in the potential.
Irrelevant. The fact is that a real time flow is necessary for a *process* in which one causal agent sends a message and another causal agent responds to it. This kind of transaction also involves an extra-mental physical process with a beginning and an end. Such a transaction, coupled with the attendant physical process, is totally incompatible with your idea of an "instantaneous experience" characterized as a “sequential scene.” Your thesis is refuted and there should be nothing more to say about it. StephenB
WJM, potentiality is not to be conflated with the actualised. That road leads to self-referential destruction of choice, thence rationality. Where, too, it is a matter of the logic of causal-temporal succession by finite stages . . . as SB highlighted . . . that a transfinite traverse cannot be completed. As for root of one's personal timeline, the origin of self-awareness and one's inner life world at what maybe 6 months, is within the timeline. As the commonly seen quantum foam, fluctuation model shows, concept of world birth and timeline is not irrational. As for eternality as a mode of being, I am not obligated to provide a detailed model to accept its reality, good reason to accept its existence is enough. Where, infinite c-t past is a supertask that cannot be traversed, circular cause is a world from the not yet existent. This leaves finitely remote world root of necessary being character as from utter non being there is no causal potential, so were there ever utter non being such would forever obtain. That a world now is leads to a reality root at finite remove of a non c-t character, without beginning and end with several other attributes such as not composite from independent antecedent parts, etc. We can reasonably describe such an alternate mode as eternal and necessary. Of course, this is now fairly serious logic of being issues that invite the rhetoric of dismissal of the abstruse. On the contrary, it is obvious that we are looking at ontology and wider metaphysics through the lens of logic applied to being, i.e. the discipline of hard questions aka philosophy. Such are not meaningless but they are hard to follow, especially if prior background is not there . . . an issue in an un-philosophical age. KF kairosfocus
SB @877: Everything anyone can ever do or think or choose is already present in the potential, otherwise it cannot occur. Every possible thing simultaneously exists in the potential. William J Murray
WJM:
IOW, “flow of time” is an aspect of the experience of the photo, just like the colors and forms in the photo. Thus, the experience of time is like the experience of a color in a photograph. It’s not a thing our experiences operate within or under, it is an aspect of our instantaneous experience of our entire, existential “photo.”
This comment attempts, among other things, to reduce transactional events to instantaneous experiences. A true time sequence, however, is the necessary ingredient for any extra-mental physical process. This is especially the case for multiple individual causal agents reacting to one another. Even on this site, I don’t know what you are going to say *until* you say it, that is, I must wait in real time until you have caused the event to happen; and I can react in real time as another causal agent only *after* you say it. It cannot be an instantaneous *process,* regardless of how you may want to describe the experience. A transaction requires a continuous flow of time. An instantaneous experience characterized as a "sequential scene" (your account) cannot explain an ongoing *physical process* going on outside of the psyche. StephenB
KF @875 said:
There was a beginning to our causal-temporal timeline, which is qualitatively different from the eternality of necessary being required for root of reality. KF
Unfortunately for you under your worldview, the beginning of our timeline necessarily occurred in that "eternality of necessary being." Calling it "qualitatively different" without explaining how a before and after "creation event" occurs in that "qualitatively different" arena is just a dodge. William J Murray
WJM, an infinite causal-temporal successive stage past is not traversible, it is a supertask. A potentially infinite onward succession is possible, but will never complete to transfinite extent. There was a beginning to our causal-temporal timeline, which is qualitatively different from the eternality of necessary being required for root of reality. KF kairosfocus
KM @865, You certainly nailed the hard question about time in relationship to personal experience, consciousness and sense of self; how does one account for sequential experiences without reference to an external timeline of some sort in the face of the "infinite past" problem? Even if we think of every possible thing or potential experience already existing in the "eternal" now, what provides the capacity for individual flow of experience through these sequentially activated potentials? A modern 4k TV or monitor has @8.3 pixels and @1.07 billion color variations per pixel (10-bit color,) this comes to roughly 8.3 billion to the 1.07 billionth power (if my math is correct,) which represents every possible image a modern 4k TV or monitor can produce. That's every possible single image; now think of adding the potential sequences of images; that would be an infinite variety of potential sequential experiences because "sequences" can also be of any duration; they can go on "forever." Let’s think about this: every possible clip, video, movie or TV show that can be displayed on that screen already exists as potential in that screen. Every possible variation of every scene, every choice any character makes, every possible outcome, already exists in the potential. Now, most thought about “an experience” is thought of as a series of “moment-by-moment” sequential experiences in the “now.” But the fact is, all we ever experience is our “now.” Even memories are an experiential aspect of our “now.” What if we’re thinking about what “an experience” is the wrong way? What if we defined “an experience” as the “whole” of an individual’s entire set of sequential “scenes”? IOW, we don’t think of experience as a scene in the movie, but rather the entire movie? Every possible movie already exists in the infinite potential. The following may be difficult to imagine, but think of this: what if the entire movie, even if infinitely long, is an instantaneous experience, but one of the aspects of that instantaneous experience is the perceived motion of yourself through “time,” through scene sequences in the movie? IOW, just like the fact that all of the scenes already exist (as what we call “potential,) at the same time in the same screen, our perceptual perspective in that scene is an intrinsic aspect of each scene. We and our perception also already exist in every frame, so to speak. I, as my perceptual perspective as an individual self, or as a loci of consciousness, am already simultaneously experiencing every scene in the movie. So, I experience the whole movie in an instantaneous “now,” but part of that instantaneous “now” experience of the entire movie is the experience of “flow” through the movie that can go on for what seems to me, in my instantaneous “now” experience, forever. Try to imagine the entire movie of an individual’s experience as a still-frame photo. The “flow of time” experience is comparable to the colors or forms present in a single image on the screen. IOW, “flow of time” is an aspect of the experience of the photo, just like the colors and forms in the photo. Thus, the experience of time is like the experience of a color in a photograph. It’s not a thing our experiences operate within or under, it is an aspect of our instantaneous experience of our entire, existential “photo.” So, there was no “point of creation.” No infinite past. No “time” we are operating under or within. We all are both timeless and eternal in an instantaneous “now," where "flow of time" through "sequential scenes" is part of that instantaneous, "whole" experience. William J Murray
KM re 868 I have great respect for Jerry but I too don’t think WJM is a troll. WJM stimulates my thinking even when I disagree. Vivid vividbleau
Jerry, the KM challenge was 775, responded to by 780, onward there were attempts to stigmatise use of classic cases of goodness from the most common classical work. But so far no serious alternative. The challenge was not serious, and I suspect it was given in expectation it could not be met. I took an ostensive approach to draw out why that description of good, evil etc makes sense and what sort of facts on the ground constrain. Nor is the general view a novelty. KF kairosfocus
You must want to understand the logic used in ordinary phrases, like saying a painting is beautiful, or saying there is a camel out back. That is the start of it. Not fantasize any [SNIP] yourself about how things work, but investigate what logic is already there in ordinary common discourse. I think you have a big problem with not trying to be smart, and just shutting the hell up, and then accurately identifying the logic used in common discourse, as it is. The logic that is there in ordinary common discourse, it is kind of made by God. Because nobody really created it. The underlying logic in common discourse is just part of human beings as being creations by God. So don't try to be smarter than yourself. mohammadnursyamsu
Mohammadnursyamsu Nazism is an example of objective morality tried out. The handbook for schooling the Hitler Youth illustrates nazi ideology. It starts out with a title to the introduction “factual outlook on life” It then goes on to explain how nazism is based on the perception of differences among people, including especially differences in personal character (spirit, soul). These differences were said to be heritable, and could be established as a matter of biological FACT. Which is totally wrong, because the creationist conceptual scheme proves that personal character can only be identified with a chosen opinion. Then later in the book selection and evolution are explained, in explicit reference to Charles Darwin. Selection is then extended to “socialist selection”, which meant “wiping out the unworthy”. So you see how the whole nazi ideology is steeped in assertions of objective morality. As by an objective law of nature, it is shown what people are good. For a nazi to consider the personal character of for instance their parents, they look to scientific measurement of it. The nazi has no idea of identifying someone’s personal character, by choosing an opinion on it, from their own emotions. It’s all so incredibly stupid. We all have the understanding of the concepts of fact and opinion directly available to us, in the common discourse we all use. Ordinary phrases like saying a painting is beautiful, or saying that there is a camel out back, they demonstrate the logic of opinion and fact. And there is no doubt about it whatsoever, that the logic used is creationist logic. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Since choices are made out of personal character, therefore personal character belongs in category number 1. Therefore personal character can only be identified with a chosen opinion, and science has no say in it whatsoever, because it is simply not a factual issue. Nazi ideology is therefore based on a logic error. A logic error that was derived from natural selection theory. Natural selection is the only theory in science which is based around subjective terminology, in regards to reproductive “success”. The entire life cycle of organisms is explained using all kinds of subjective words, in relation to this success. So very obviously, the objectification of subjectiver terminology in natural selection theory, led people to objectify personal character, and consequently nazism was born.
My friend I understand nothing . Sandy
I’m not sure how many of the posts in this thread you’ve actually read,
I’ll take that as a no. jerry
Jerry, I'm not sure how many of the posts in this thread you've actually read, but it should be rather obvious that WJM and I essentially share the same view about morality. His writings are quite clear and much better than mine. So have a fresh look, if you care. (That you think WJM is a troll is astonishing to me. But then, I think you're one. [Shrug.]) Karen McMannus
When you give me your definition, I’ll give you mine. KF started this thread. Go, KF, let’s hear it.
        It’s time to put up or shut up jerry
KM, initiation of our timeline is actually often spoken of nowadays, typically in context of a quantum foam sub-world. KF kairosfocus
WJM @861, re God's "creating" (or not.) God creating at a certain "point in time" when there is an infinite past is logically absurd. God's existing timelessly with (or as) All Potentia, so to speak, is not a logically absurd idea. The rub comes in where one tries to explain consciousness, yours and mine, having a sequential experience "though" "areas" of the All Potentia. This progression we call "time." If your conscious sequential experience had a beginning within the Timeless, how is that any less absurd than a timeless God creating progressions we call the universe and time? OTOH, if your conscious sequential experience had no beginning, then your progression has an infinite number of transitions in the past, and so how is that any less absurd than a time-based God creating at a point in time? This is why I said many moons ago, that whatever the Root is, it is beyond these sorts of questions. The Root is "timeless" (beyond the very concept of time or timelessness) and can create time-progressions. This is utterly absurd to human reason and thus human reason and philosophy is ultimately non-rational. At a certain point, one can only "enter the Kingdom as a little child", so to speak. This would seem to be that point. Karen McMannus
Jerry, bread was what the great artists of the renaissance era had. The last time I saw it in use was by technical drawing students sitting an exam I invigilated. But if the kids need the bread to eat, the imperfect eraser would be enough. Who knows, maybe it was optimised for the paper they used in China. (BTW, I did a search and when the company popped up, I instantly recognised the wrapper for a block of the pencils -- 50+ years later -- and the 320 model number. Unconsciously memorised, I think; marketing works.) KF kairosfocus
I need to speak up for No 320 Elephant Pencils.
Does this mean that bread is an evil eraser? jerry
F/N: In all fairness I need to speak up for No 320 Elephant Pencils. They worked, they were affordable, they enabled many a poor child to learn in school, and as they were so common, that child did not feel slighted. So, while not a perfect good, they were an effective good that contributed to a greater good, education. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
WJM, you would have done better to address why there is a general recognition that this is a case of unambiguous evil, suitable as a plumb line test.
I did address it. "General recognition" does not a plumb line (self-evident or necessary truth) indicate.
God’s creation of this possible world as an actualised one is patently not an absurd or incoherent concept.
Great! I take that as a challenge to make my case. What I said:
BTW, the concept that God, as an eternal and/or timeless entity, created the universe results in an incomprehensible absurdity that can be revealed by logic.
If this is looked at from a linear time perspective, God existed "forever" before He created the universe. This means we could never have actually come to the point in that timeline where God created the universe because the past, prior to that point in God's timeline, would extend back infinitely. If this is looked at from the perspective that "time," to God, is series of locations that God exists in simultaneously - past, present, future - then there was no "time," from that perspective, that He created the universe because it always existed in that set of locations he has always, eternally experienced. There was no "before" or "after," there would only be the places it exists, and the places it does not, all of which God always experienced. Either there is an infinite past before creation of the universe, or the universe always existed somewhere in God's simultaneous experience of what we call the past, present and future. In the latter, the past, present and future would all be God's "present," which means the universe has always existed in God's "present." Beyond that fundamental logical absurdity, there are other logical absurdities, such as the assertion that God created the universe ex nihilo, or out of nothing. That in itself is a logical absurdity. Then we have the question of where God created the universe. Unless there was some place "other than God" to locate the universe, it could only have been created within God. The only rationally sustainable perspective is: the universe has always existed within the eternal, timeless simultaneity of God, and in the only possible location (God,) and made entirely of the only available "material:" God. William J Murray
Nazism is an example of objective morality tried out. The handbook for schooling the Hitler Youth illustrates nazi ideology. It starts out with a title to the introduction "factual outlook on life" It then goes on to explain how nazism is based on the perception of differences among people, including especially differences in personal character (spirit, soul). These differences were said to be heritable, and could be established as a matter of biological FACT. Which is totally wrong, because the creationist conceptual scheme proves that personal character can only be identified with a chosen opinion. Then later in the book selection and evolution are explained, in explicit reference to Charles Darwin. Selection is then extended to "socialist selection", which meant "wiping out the unworthy". So you see how the whole nazi ideology is steeped in assertions of objective morality. As by an objective law of nature, it is shown what people are good. For a nazi to consider the personal character of for instance their parents, they look to scientific measurement of it. The nazi has no idea of identifying someone's personal character, by choosing an opinion on it, from their own emotions. It's all so incredibly stupid. We all have the understanding of the concepts of fact and opinion directly available to us, in the common discourse we all use. Ordinary phrases like saying a painting is beautiful, or saying that there is a camel out back, they demonstrate the logic of opinion and fact. And there is no doubt about it whatsoever, that the logic used is creationist logic. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Since choices are made out of personal character, therefore personal character belongs in category number 1. Therefore personal character can only be identified with a chosen opinion, and science has no say in it whatsoever, because it is simply not a factual issue. Nazi ideology is therefore based on a logic error. A logic error that was derived from natural selection theory. Natural selection is the only theory in science which is based around subjective terminology, in regards to reproductive "success". The entire life cycle of organisms is explained using all kinds of subjective words, in relation to this success. So very obviously, the objectification of subjectiver terminology in natural selection theory, led people to objectify personal character, and consequently nazism was born. mohammadnursyamsu
So how would you teach the difference between fact and opinion in school. For kids to understand the difference between objective statements that Jack has 2 hands, and Jack is nice? By saying that nice is also objective if it confirms to God's standards? Stop it. Just use common sense, and find out what the underlying logic is, in statements of fact, and statements of opinion. And there is no doubt about it that an opinion is formed by choice and expresses what it is that makes a choice, and a fact is just a copy of something to a model of it, in the mind. mohammadnursyamsu
Mohammadnursyamsu Fact is what you measure, and opinion is what you feel.
Can you measure God? Opinion is not what you feel is a combination of life experiences,personality,mood and interpretation of a certain event,thing,etc at a certain time of your life. That interpretation can be subjective (false after God's standards )or objective (true after God's standards Sandy
WJM, God's creation of this possible world as an actualised one is patently not an absurd or incoherent concept. KF kairosfocus
WJM, you would have done better to address why there is a general recognition that this is a case of unambiguous evil, suitable as a plumb line test. Your reaction does not change the force of the plumb line, it just shows that something is seriously out of kilter with the views you have espoused. KF kairosfocus
Jerry @853: https://giphy.com/gifs/yx400dIdkwWdsCgWYp William J Murray
BTW, the concept that God, as an eternal and/or timeless entity, created the universe results in an incomprehensible absurdity that can be revealed by logic. I bring this up because the idea that we and the universe were created for a purpose necessarily relies on that concept. If anyone cares to hear that argument, let me know. William J Murray
The troll feels neglected and wants back in. It’s almost a certainty that someone will feed the troll. jerry
SB asks:
Well, then, when asked, why didn’t you just say that you don’t know if it is wrong to torture babies for fun? Or why didn’t you say that for others, it might be permissible, but it is something that you, personally, “would not prefer.”
Because when you ask me a personal question, I cannot answer honestly from your ontology and epistemology. I can only answer honestly from mine. This is why I told you "objective" means something different under my ontology than yours, and why also told you that my personal views were irrelevant to the argument I was making. I don't make arguments about my personal views; I make logical and evidential arguments about theories, models and ideas I wish to explore and have criticized.
What good is your world view if it is so empty and meaningless that it cannot even address the morality of torturing babies for fun?
I think this question probably more than any other gets to the root of the difficulty you have with my preference and enjoyment model; from your perspective, it turns everything into an empty, meaningless existence that is centered around something you don't consider to be a worthy goal in and of itself. From your perspective, there's nothing of value my worldview has to offer. From my perspective, my worldview offers the exactly same thing qualitatively as yours: an eternal, maximally enjoyable outcome.
As I keep pointing out, and as KF has confirmed, you cannot “argue” for objective morality...
Sure you can; you guys have been attempting to do so for years right here in this forum. What exactly have you been doing in this thread, except arguing for objective morality?
... or any other self-evident truth.
I'll address this later in this comment.
We have both explained that your “no ought to from the is” argument is misplaced and why it is incorrectly formulated. If it is a metaphysical is, then one can, indeed, derive an ought to from it.
I don't even know why you're bringing this up. I agree and have agreed that the kind of moral rules you and KF are arguing for would exist as their own metaphysical "is" - the ought is also an is.
A rational argument cannot prove the existence of a self-evident truth.
Perhaps a better way of saying it then is this: logical principle reveal self-evident truths, even themselves, by a standard that allow the very understanding of what a self-evident truth is and how you find them: what I call the principle of the absurdity of the contrary. This is how the three fundamental "rules" of logic were revealed; to deny them resulted in a strict, inescapable absurdity. Not just a "weird" situation; rather, to deny them would result in incomprehensibility. Of course, the very capability to recognize existential absurdities as such is now understood as being via the process of logic, but this is how logic itself was revealed - by showing that we are necessarily applying logical principles just to be have coherent thoughts about anything, by showing that whatever you call "that capacity," it was existentially necessary and inescapable, that to think in the contrary resulted in incomprehensible absurdity. Because of this, logic was self-revealing, and it is by those same principles that we can reveal other self-evident truths via the incomprehensible absurdity of the contrary. This is how we innately recognize "I exist" or "2+2=4" or "error exists" as self-evidently true; to deny those things would result in an incomprehensible absurdity. They cannot be anything other than true, otherwise, as KF would say, we are lost in a world of incomprehensible absurdity. However, let me reach out this way; let's say that the principles of logic are self-evidently true, and that beyond that, statements such as "I exist" or "2+2=4" are revealed as necessarily true statements because we recognize -via logic - that the contrary of those statements results in incomprehensible absurdity. The problem with morality is there are (apparently) no basic statements of morality that logic can reveal as necessarily true on pain of incomprehensible absurdity. "It can be good and right to torture babies" may be a situation that few people would agree with, and that most people might find abhorrent, but it is not an incomprehensible absurdity like "I don't exist" and "2+2 does not equal 4." This is because the statement "torturing babies is universally wrong" depends on other things to make the case; it depends on an argument about the existence and nature of God, about the nature of conscience, good and evil, the existence of "objective" morality, arguments about consequences and "common human understanding." It cannot just rely on "it universally feels wrong" because for some people it does not "feel wrong." The rest of your comment was about describing "the good" and "value" in a couple of ways. One was about helping other people attain the preferable, enjoyable outcome. I see two parts to this; the first is admittedly about attaining the preferential enjoyable outcome, the second is the good or value in helping others attain that goal. The second thing you made the case for was good and value in terms of fulfilling our purpose (which, I would think, fulfilling our purpose aids in our reaching preferred, enjoyable outcome(s). But, in your formulation of your argument, this "purpose" is not a self-evident or necessary truth; it also relies on the other things I listed for the support of the moral statement above. Additionally, it relies on the argument that we are contingent beings designed and created for a purpose, and I don't see how that can be revealed as a necessary truth. But, here's the completely revealing part that makes all of this clear: WJM said
This is obviously true; nobody would pursue “the good” if they believed it led them to eternal suffering.
SB replied:
Obviously.
Obviously. The good, and the value anyone has, feels or operates from, in any morality, is inescapably attached to the eventual, preferred, enjoyable outcome. Otherwise, there is no perceived value or good worth pursuing. I don't know how much more clearly it can be shown that morality is necessarily about pursuing a preferred enjoyable outcome, whether one believes morality is subjective or objective. Even when you help other people, you prefer they enjoy the outcome. Even when you try to fulfill your purpose, that only makes sense because of the preferential outcome, because if fulfilling your purpose meant eternal suffering, and not fulfilling your purpose meant being destroyed out of existence, how many of us would not make every effort to fail our duty or purpose? Better to not exist at all than to suffer for eternity with no hope of escape or relief. I realize that when one is enmeshed in a grand, glorious metaphysical system of good vs evil, of supremely important purpose and value where the eternal fate of all living souls is at stake, any other system can seem entirely devoid of value, meaning and purpose. I mean, compared to that, what's the point? What's the point of just living, even if we live forever, if there is no universal plan, no meaningful ultimate purpose, no ultimate goal that transcends everything else. I understand that this is a completely unacceptable option for most people. It's not my intention to talk anyone out of so glorious and important and value-laden perspective; my assumption here is that I cannot do so anyway, even if that was my intention, which it is not. William J Murray
Jerry, I used cases to draw out the structure of the good and the evil. Start with, a good pencil and pencil eraser. Draw out from the case of that murdered child. Compare classics on the good, love, even add the good samaritan. Those embed patterns, draw them out. Evil frustrates the due end of entities, the good expresses or fosters such due ends, leading to virtues, greatness, beauty, order, justice etc. Often, due ends are naturally evident. The ultimate good expresses maximal greatness. These are not idiosyncratic notions, many have gone through this before. KF kairosfocus
He quotes Cicero for his “logic.” He quotes the New Testament for his definition of “good.”
No he doesn’t. I have no idea where these definitions of good and evil came from. But they certainly are not the New Testament. You said you would provide yours. I would be curious. I am on record here, probably dozens of times, saying no one can define the word evil coherently. So where is your definition? Kf provided his definition shortly after you asked for it. @775
When you give me your definition, I’ll give you mine. KF started this thread. Go, KF, let’s hear it.
Kf did 5 comments later. As some would say, crickets. jerry
F/N: Arguing regarding first principle SET's as opposed to trying to prove. These are constitutive of or govern reasoning, attempts to prove already implicitly use what they try to prove. Likewise objections and skeptical dismissals. They are antecedent to proofs and disproofs, start points. Where one with adequate experience understands such a SET, sees its truth and its necessity on pain of immediate patent absurdity. Unfortunately, this is a day where we have been taught to dress a vice of the mind, hyperskepticism in the clothes of right reason, and so many are willing to cling to absurdity. KF kairosfocus
SB:
As I keep pointing out, and as KF has confirmed, you cannot “argue” for objective morality or any other self-evident truth. We have both explained that your “no ought to from the is” argument is misplaced and why it is incorrectly formulated. If it is a metaphysical is, then one can, indeed, derive an ought to from it . . . . A rational argument cannot prove the existence of a self-evident truth. A self evident truth is the necessary foundation for making a rational argument. The easy and cheap way for a subjectivist to disavow a self evident truth it to simply shrug it off by saying, “it isn’t self evident to me.” Hilariously, every person on this site who has argued against objective moral standards complained, at one time or another, that they were not being treated in a “fair” manner.
This is how far our education and philosophising have lost their way. I think, many have not learned the pons asinorum principle. The self-evident is not recognisable to all. First, some lack the background to understand aptly. Second, if one makes a crooked yardstick his/her standard of uprightness, straightness and accuracy, then one will challenge even a naturally straight and upright plumb line. (And, above, someone tried to suggest that plumb lines have problems. They need to go ask the Sphinx and Pyramids at Giza for their view on the matter.) It is particularly, sadly, interesting to see how often objectors studiously side-step when their implicit appeal to the inescapable authority of first duties of reason is pointed out. We are back to Epictetus:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
KF kairosfocus
Sev, 839: >>Accepting Vaughn’s definition for the sake of argument, he doesn’t explain in what sense an individual’s approval makes an action “morally right”. Is it just for that individual? Is it for that individual and all others that agree with them?>> LV is summarising moral subjectivism here (this is a siummary section) and is responding to the implied frame of argument involved, bringing out why subjectivism fails. It is the subjectivist who tries to claim that his or her view -- and this may extend to a reference circle -- is all there is to appeal to to discern the right. It manifestly fails. Hence, his immediate brief comment: "Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement." This would mean, rights (which require correlative duties) collapse into demands of the self imposed on others, which is chaotic in the Kantian CI sense. Individualistic extremism on ethics fails. >>And how do you infer a claim of infallibility from Vaugh’s definition? I don’t see that it follows.>> If the only court of appeal is the individual's opinion, whatever that is at the moment is decisive. The very fact that you contemplate that the individual like this is potentially in error implies objectivity and first principles of both general and moral reasoning. This of course points to right reason, prudence, truth and inescapably authoritative duties to same. Somewhere, Cicero is laughing. >>As for genuine moral disagreements, I would have thought subjective relativism would allow a whole lot of them with each individual arguing their own corner against all others>> Nope, if my perception is the court of appeal, my current view is decisive, and it is decisive again if and when the view changes. Arguments boil down to debates on preferences for the moment. >> I would argue that the diversity of moral judgments among cultures does strongly imply they are culturally determined, although that may not be the only explanation.>> Nope, only that we disagree (though as C S Lewis famously summarised, we actually agree on a solid core far more than is realised, e.g. on cowardice in battle or the underlying duty of fairness that so often emerges in quarrelling, etc). Our VIEWS are culturally influenced, but cultural influence does not determine what is right. E.g. notoriously, did Nazi Germany's cultural norms make the launching of aggressive war right, seizing of lebensraum, slaughter of polish, jewish and russian mice by allegedly superior german cats [I allude to a particularly ugly text in Mein Kampf]? Thus, LV: ">. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts." (This last was recognised by anthropologists.) >>It also argues against objective morality since it would be reasonable to expect that to drive separate moral beliefs to converge on the objective ideal, which we don’t see.>> An objective moral truth claim is a claim that a certain state of affairs obtains, regarding duty, rights, ought etc. The above, first, is implicitly an appeal to relativism as the established truth about morality, and is thus self-referential and incoherent. In fact, all that disagreement on morals, economics, politics, history, physics, mathematics and philosophy demonstrates is the fact of disagreement in the context where it is self-evidently true that error exists. So, we should instead seek to identify the first principles of moral reasoning, leading to improved quality of our reasoning and so to a growing body of credible knowledge regarding duty. My point is, there are indeed first duties that once recognised as inescapable [you just appealed to them] can be seen as first, self-evident principles. Namely, duties to truth, right reason, prudence [including warrant i/l/o proneness to error], sound conscience [the built in moral compass], neighbour [who is as we are], so too fairness and justice etc. There is nothing arbitrary in such a list, it is astonishing to see how it has been resisted, while the very objections show -- unacknowledged -- the pervasiveness of these principles in our life of thought. >>I don’t see that it does entail infallibility. No doubt, there will be individuals and cultures who come to believe they are infallible but that is not the same.>> But that's the point, you imply possibility and actuality of moral error, thus moral truth that has warrant, i.e. is objective. And again, the issue is appeal court. A community level reference as decisively authoritative is no sounder than the individual. And the case of Nazism, among others over the past 100+ years, should long since have been decisive. That it hasn't implies that ideological interests are at work. >>If the is/ought gap is unbridgeable then there is no way to ground moral beliefs in objective reality. They must start from human emotions. All else is post hoc rationalization.>> IF, the notoriously laconical Spartans once said. The point is, there can be a world root level is who also inherently grounds ought as inherently good, utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being. Where, we have already seen that there are objective moral first truths that are self-evident. Indeed, in your objection, again, you are appealing to such first duties. In so doing, you posit moral truth claims and treat them as established. Actually, failing but the underlying inescapability is manifest. >>That would also be true for the Creator you propose as the bridge.>> No, the inherently good and utterly wise would bridge is and ought in ways that are amenable to reasonable inquiry. There can be an is that simultaneously is ground of ought. Where, the mystery comes out once we see that the good promotes, expresses, fulfills, fosters due development or expression of apt ends. A good pencil and a good eraser are discernibly different from the inferior product. A good samaritan [across racial, cultural and theological barriers and enmity] reaches out to the needy neighbour, the ones who pass by fail to do due balance, reflecting in turn their moral failings even as they may well be more right on any number of other points. So, the goodness of a necessary, maximally great being as inherently good, utterly wise source of worlds, is non-arbitrary. It is manifest in intelligible first principles that in fact are inescapably authoritative. The very act of objecting does homage to such. >>In what way would its moral judgments be any less subjective than our own?>> Subjectivity is inevitable in self-aware, conscious rationality. We are knowing, reasoning subjects, albeit error prone. The issue of objectivity, as has been repeatedly highlighted, is to provide warrant that credibly rises above the error-proneness. Thus, right reason towards truth, etc. The inherently good and utterly wise would think straight. In context, we can see first principles of such straight thinking, as has been summarised. Further, as inherently good, and source of worlds, such a being would know the proper ends, which we can partly discern, and in knowing, can foster same. >> How would even an absolute, perfect knowledge of what “is” span the gap to “ought”?>> By being inherently good and utterly wise, acting with good shepherdly concern. Where, maximal greatness embraces all great-making properties to maximal compossible degree. That can be elaborated but it is enough to note. Further to this, the legitimate form of IS-OUGHT is that we are prone to fall short of what we ought. That by no means implies that there is no possible being -- is -- that maximally fulfills the potential of greatness. In short, the notion that there is an unbridgeable chasm is invalid on its face. Again, more can be said. KF kairosfocus
VL, no, I pointed to Cicero as sparking my thinking on first duties of core law coeval with our humanity and especially rational responsible freedom. Without which last, credibility of mind collapses. The point there is that by inescapability -- shown from the objectors here ever so many times -- we readily recognise self-evidence as first principles that govern that freedom, IF we are willing. I cited two NT case studies on the good and the regrettable case of a child kidnapped, sexually tortured and murdered on the way home from school as a concrete context of tracing out what it means to be good. The parable of the good shepherd, the poem on love as wellspring of virtue and I could have added say the parable of the good samaritan are contexts of good vs evil in action that anchor thinking to what concepts are reflected in that use, which may then be drawn out and summarised. This is definition by cases and family resemblance -- ostensive definition -- leading to summary anchored to context. Notice, I used briefer cases earlier to show that we often use knowledge in a weak sense, hence modifying conception and context of knowledge to embrace that. KF PS: It is noteworthy that after rhetorically demanding definitions, rhetoric of side stepping has been engaged. That tells us balance on merits. I remind of the summary:
The good is that which fosters or enables a given entity to fulfill or thrive in its innate end [which is often naturally evident], so enhances or expresses its proper nature and in the moral context is identified with what ought to be or be done. The evil by contrast, wrenches what is towards such an end out of alignment with such an end, by that perversity frustrating or blocking fulfillment of the proper end. Thus, evil is a chaotic, perverse parasite on the good that frustrates or at least hampers such proper fulfillment. It is manifest why morally freighted evils are what ought not to be done.
kairosfocus
Thanks, vivid. I see your statement was actually a question. Viola Lee
VL “But I don’t know how this works in reverse. Maybe I don’t completely agree with your #837. I am thinking of a blue unicorn. I just wrote that sentence, but in my mind I was visualizing a red unicorn, so I lied. “ We lie all the time to other people about what we really are thinking heh heh Vivid vividbleau
Jerry: That must be why he constantly quotes Cicero. He quotes Cicero for his "logic." He quotes the New Testament for his definition of "good." See @780 People can believe whatever religion they want, but let's be upfront about what grounds one's philosophy. Karen McMannus
VL “Also, Vivid, did you see my explanation at 836 that I didn’t “explain that [I] don’t know if they are [my] thoughts? I didn’t say that.” Yes and you are correct you did not say that. Rather than jump to an inaccurate conclusion I thought it best to ask first. Vivid vividbleau
I agree with Sev that I don't see how Vaughn's description of subjective relativism implies "that each person is morally infallible." He just asserts that in the clip without any explanation. I think it implies the opposite: that people who endorse "subjective relativism" will be open to changing their minds through, as Paige reminds us, through persuasion, through new experiences, through growth as a human, etc.. I can change my mind about moral positions because I don't see my moral positions as absolutely rigidly set in stone. Viola Lee
re 837: I agree. The interesting question, to me, is to what extent we can separate our internal thinking from the physical means with which we express our thoughts. My experience is that internally I can grasp whole ideas non-verbally, and with images, but I can't share that with anyone because the only way I can get my thoughts where other people you experience them is through physical means such as writing or speaking. I can think of a unicorn internally in ways that no other person can experience, but once I express that thought physically the two are at least somewhat connected. However, I might have a clear image of a unicorn in my mind, and telling you I am thinking of a unicorn, but you can't see what color unicorn I'm thinking about. But I don't know how this works in reverse. Maybe I don't completely agree with your #837. I am thinking of a blue unicorn. I just wrote that sentence, but in my mind I was visualizing a red unicorn, so I lied. You have no way of knowing, but maybe we can say we having one experience and really not be having it??? The big point: most (virtually all) of the time there is more to the internal experience of our thoughts, both in type and content, than we can make objective by expressing through some physical means to other people. Also, Vivid, did you see my explanation at 836 that I didn't "explain that [I] don’t know if they are [my] thoughts? I didn't say that. Viola Lee
Kairosfocus/815
Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement
Accepting Vaughn's definition for the sake of argument, he doesn't explain in what sense an individual's approval makes an action "morally right". Is it just for that individual? Is it for that individual and all others that agree with them? What if everyone agrees an action is morally right, do we infer that it must therefore be objectively true rather than just being intersubjective agreement? If so, on what grounds? And how do you infer a claim of infallibility from Vaugh's definition? I don't see that it follows. As for genuine moral disagreements, I would have thought subjective relativism would allow a whole lot of them with each individual arguing their own corner against all others. Except for those that agree, of course
Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures.
Actually, I would argue that the diversity of moral judgments among cultures does strongly imply they are culturally determined, although that may not be the only explanation. It also argues against objective morality since it would be reasonable to expect that to drive separate moral beliefs to converge on the objective ideal, which we don't see.
Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, ...
Again, I don't see that it does entail infallibility. No doubt, there will be individuals and cultures who come to believe they are infallible but that is not the same.
Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude.
I would agree. If the is/ought gap is unbridgeable then there is no way to ground moral beliefs in objective reality. They must start from human emotions. All else is post hoc rationalization. That would also be true for the Creator you propose as the bridge. In what way would its moral judgments be any less subjective than our own? How would even an absolute, perfect knowledge of what "is" span the gap to "ought"? Seversky
WJM:
I don’t think I’ve ever denied that objective morality exists. I don’t know if it exists or not.
Well, then, when asked, why didn’t you just say that you don’t know if it is wrong to torture babies for fun? Or why didn’t you say that for others, it might be permissible, but it is something that you, personally, “would not prefer.” What good is your world view if it is so empty and meaningless that it cannot even address the morality of torturing babies for fun?
KF has been attempting to make the case for “objective morality” for … I don’t know, years?
As I keep pointing out, and as KF has confirmed, you cannot “argue” for objective morality or any other self-evident truth. We have both explained that your “no ought to from the is” argument is misplaced and why it is incorrectly formulated. If it is a metaphysical is, then one can, indeed, derive an ought to from it.
I tried my hand at it a few years ago and I couldn’t make any headway on it.
A rational argument cannot prove the existence of a self-evident truth. A self evident truth is the necessary foundation for making a rational argument. The easy and cheap way for a subjectivist to disavow a self evident truth it to simply shrug it off by saying, “it isn’t self evident to me.” Hilariously, every person on this site who has argued against objective moral standards complained, at one time or another, that they were not being treated in a “fair” manner.
This is obviously true; nobody would pursue “the good” if they believed it led them to eternal suffering.
Obviously.
;How convenient it is that doing what is “the good” also leads to the maximally enjoyable, preferable final outcome.”
How predictable it is that doing what is good also leads to a maximally enjoyable, preferable final outcome.
.....the proposed eventual, preferable, enjoyable, social, interpersonal, and/or final outcome is the defining. essential reason anyone cares about morality at all.
That seems reasonable.
So, demonstrate my logic wrong: what does morality offer in terms of “good” or “value” besides the enjoyable promise of the eventual outcomes for moral behavior?
The good is, among other things, the standard to which our preferences should conform. Do we prefer the things that ought to be preferred, and among those preferences, do we also entertain the hope the others might share in the desirable state of existence that you describe. That would include the hope that they, too, can learn to cultivate the right preferences. The selfish pursuit of one’s own preferences is not always the mark of a good person. If we look after ourselves only, even our own well-being is compromised. In that sense, love is synonymous with “the good.” What is the practical meaning of good in this context? A thing is good (and reflects the good) if it operates according to its nature. In some cases, this means operating according to the purpose for which it was designed, A good can opener, for example, can easily open cans. A good pen is one that produces good images and is ergonomically sound. It might be good *for* the can opener to sharpen or change its blade, or it might be good for the pen to replace a cartridge. What if a pen were to suddenly say, “today,” (or from now on), I prefer to be a can opener” If it follows that preference, it will not only fail in its mission, The critical factor is purpose. If the can opener or pen has no purpose, then neither tool could be good because there would be no standard for making that assessment. In the same way, if humans do not have a nature, then there can be no such thing as a good person or a moral person – or for that matter, a bad person or an immoral person. Humans should act in accordance with their nature, but they cannot violate a nature that they do not have. Under those circumstances, one could no longer say that a human should not act like an animal osr prefer the things that an animal prefers. StephenB
VL “Can I say I am thinking of a unicorn but not really be thinking of a unicorn?” LOL No you cannot! Vivid vividbleau
No Vivid, I didn't say that. They are my thoughts: that's not in question. I was responding to a question about what I thought the cause of my thoughts was. Viola Lee
VL “With that said, I don’t know where my thoughts come from. I think there is lots of evidence that they are correlated in some way, at least in part, with brain states, but how those states relate to my conscious experience, and how my conscious experience can feedback and influence brain states is the “hard problem of consciousness” about which much is speculated and little is known.” You refer to yourself three times in one paragraph to explain that you don’t know if they are your thoughts? Vivid vividbleau
Oh really, something can be both objective and subjective? How's that going to work out in teaching kids in school, the difference between fact and opinion? So now the intelligent design artists, are making a total mess of education. Teaching the CNN notion of "fact-opinions". Fact is what you measure, and opinion is what you feel. That is mostly what kids are taught. It's not wrong, and far superior then what any of you say about it. Why you never even considered to relate subjective to what is felt. You feel what it is, and then you express those feelings, by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, thereby choosing a personal opinion on what it is. All subjective opinions identify something that makes a choice. To say a painting is beautiful, the opinion identifies a love for the way the painting looks, as making a choice. To say someone is kind, the opinion identifies the personal character of someone, out of which personal character they make a choice. The underlying logic of any and all subjective opinions, is that an opinion is chosen, and an opinion expresses what it is that makes a choice. As demonstrated in the creationist conceptual scheme. mohammadnursyamsu
Viola Lee re 830: I just imagined a six legged pig with wings, striped like a zebra, with a hairy tail. It doesn’t exist in the world. Not sure I understand why you think one can’t think of something that doesn’t exist in this world.?
You thought to a combination of already existent things/beings: a pig, bird's wings, a zebra. Sandy
re 830: I just imagined a six legged pig with wings, striped like a zebra, with a hairy tail. It doesn't exist in the world. Not sure I understand why you think one can't think of something that doesn’t exist in this world.? Viola Lee
But back to one of my questions. Is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective? What defining criteria can one offer that makes these exclusive and opposite categories that can properly categorize a thought?
They can be both. The words don't necessarily mean exclusive things depending on how they are used. What ever thought one has it is constantly varying so it may be objective for an instant and then changing to another objective thought. What is in one person's mind is relevant to that person and subjective when compared to another's constantly changing thought on the same concept. I believe there are people who make a living discussing these types of things. They are called epistemologists. I ran into the writings of one recently who was discussing just how one know one's own thoughts. jerry
Viola Lee But back to one of my questions. Is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective? What defining criteria can one offer that makes these exclusive and opposite categories that can properly categorize a thought?
I bet you can't think to a thing/being that don't exist in this world. Sandy
SB said:
If you deny objective morality, then you deny the good to which it is ordered.
I don't think I've ever denied that objective morality exists. I don't know if it exists or not.
Still, you seem to go back and forth on that one. When the heat is on, as when you are asked if it is wrong to torture babies for fun, you say yes, but when the heat is off, you revert back to saying that there is no such thing as “wrong,” or if there is, there is no way to know it. You have never resolved this problem.
I don't think I've ever said there is no such thing as wrong, or that if there is, there is no way to know it. I think those things you think I've said are entirely in your imagination, so it's not my issue to resolve. KF has been attempting to make the case for "objective morality" for ... I don't know, years? I tried my hand at it a few years ago and I couldn't make any headway on it. Perhaps someone can come up with a good argument and/or evidence it exists. I don't think it would be wise to try to argue that a possible thing "doesn't exist." You're mistaking my logical analysis of the nature of choice, the preference and enjoyment factors of all sought goals and duties, whether subjective or objective, for an argument that objective morals and such "final, good outcomes" do not exist. That's not what I'm arguing. I don't think I would even attempt to argue that.
If there is no good, then there is no meaning.
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. You're going to have to rephrase that or explain to help me understand.
Even if moral choices sometimes display the qualities of a preferable, enjoyable outcome, that doesn’t mean that those qualities define its essential or fundamental nature. You have not been successful in making that case.
Moral choices do not "sometimes" display" the qualities of a preferable, enjoyable outcome; the proposed eventual, preferable, enjoyable, social, interpersonal, and/or final outcome is the defining. essential reason anyone cares about morality at all.
Perhaps it seems obvious to you because your analysis is incomplete. One might pursue something that is mistakenly believed to be good, but is not. Such a mistake could cause suffering in this world, and in the next..
The analysis is not incomplete, but perhaps not worded for best understanding. Let me change it a bit: "This is obviously true; nobody would pursue “the good” if they believed it led them to eternal suffering. How convenient it is that doing what is “the good” also leads to the maximally enjoyable, preferable final outcome."
The bad logic is yours because I didn’t “appeal” to my premise. I simply stated a logical fact: If objective morality exists, it is because the good to which it is ordered, exists. This is true by definition.
Okay, my best interpretation of this is that you're saying my logic is bad when I say that eventual enjoyable preference of outcome is the necessary structure of moral choices even if objective morality exists because it doesn't take into account some oblective quality you call "the good", that provides all of "what is valuable" other than the enjoyable state of the eventual outcome. So, demonstrate my logic wrong: what does morality offer in terms of "good" or "value" besides the enjoyable promise of the eventual outcomes for moral behavior? William J Murray
But back to one of my questions. Is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective? What defining criteria can one offer that makes these exclusive and opposite categories that can properly categorize a thought? Viola Lee
Sandy, some atheists are not materialists: for instance, me. Furthermore some, again like me, don't believe that any human religion or philosophy is ultimately, ontologically true, but are strongly agnostic about what might be true about that which is beyond/behind the physical. So your first question should be addressed to materialists, not atheists in general. With that said, I don't know where my thoughts come from. I think there is lots of evidence that they are correlated in some way, at least in part, with brain states, but how those states relate to my conscious experience, and how my conscious experience can feedback and influence brain states is the "hard problem of consciousness" about which much is speculated and little is known. As to your second question, imagination about things that don't really exist is a hallmark feature of human beings. Unicorns are described in works of fiction, so that gives me a template to build my imaginations on, but I can, right now, think of things that have never been thought before. When I think of a unicorn I am thinking of a visual image in my mind, not a real creature. Viola Lee
Scott Adams has a new kind of troll. Its called the peacock.
I've been testing out a response to a certain kind of troll I call a peacock. The peacock is less concerned about changing anyone's opinion on Twitter than they are concerned about looking superior to the person they are attacking. (In other words, they are narcissists.) Once you note that obvious fact, they seem to slink away
Are some of the constant attacks here using non sequiturs from peacocks? jerry
Questions for all atheists from this thread: When you think who is the first cause of your thoughts? The chemicals from your brain ? VL ,you think to a unicorn but you already know is not real so what are you talking about? Sandy
KM, The arguments here are first about warrant and knowledge in the post Gettier world. My basic point stands. On morals, hundreds of comments above, I dealt with the Christofascist imposition thesis, noting -- as I did again -- that the foundational NT documents actually endorse in common, conscience attested core natural law, in almost the same words. Further, you will note that the trigger to my thought is Cicero, that Bible Thumping -- NOT -- Pagan Roman Rhetor, Stoic philosopher and statesman writing c 50 BC in Italy. In pondering his comments on natural law, I was led to note the inescapability thus self evidence of built in first duties of reason. Of course, you are in denial about such even as you seem to readily accept fashionable newspeak. Similarly, I remain struck by Aristotle's derfinition of truth and the centrality of LOI and logic of being, which admittedly Paul alludes to in 1 Cor though he does not elaborate on the logic. My view on mind and body is influenced by Derek Smith. Wigner's pondering and the work on transfinites and infinitesimals shapes my view on structure and quantity. I think Schaeffer, adjusted, has a solid point on history and influence of ideas. Plato on Cave and Ship of state has a lot to say i/l/o the Peloponnesian war and Jesus on good/bad in Ser on Mt eyes and Luke in Ac 27 correspond. My ideology was shaped in challenge to Marxism and Nazism i/l/o history, my economics is Austrian influenced but using Garrison on Macro as a good break in. FYI, my worldview is built up from examination and analysis not blind adherence to any system, so the strawman caricature fails. You have taken the excuse that I chose certain cases illustrating goodness in order to then flesh out a description, to pose a distractive red herring. That suggests that I have put on the table a framework that holds the balance on the merits but which is unpalatable as it will cut across fashionable relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. As Vaughn points out these three fail. KF kairosfocus
KF
Paige, no. Inference to best explanation across candidates is abductive reasoning not question begging. In the case, Hume’s guillotine on is-is leaping to ought ought, is answerable by something at root level that is and grounds ought. A serious candidate is on the table, if you object, kindly provide another ______ KF
If goals are to survive and prosper, for my family to survive and prosper, to participate productively in society, etc, I “ought” to behave in ways to achieve these goals. That is also enough justification to encourage others to behave in a similar fashion. Where others have similar goals, there is no problem. When others have different goals, there will be conflict.
PS: Reducing morality to subjectivity is tantamount to endorsing both widespread grand delusion...
Subjective and delusion are not the same thing.
undermining credibility of reason...
How so? One of my goals is to not be beat up. To attain this goal I subjectively believe that others have a similar goal and act accordingly. Seems reasonable to me.
and leading to reduction to might and/or manipulation make “right,” “rights,” “justice” etc. No sane person should go there.
You keep leaving out cooperation, compromise and persuasion. These are critical in achieving common goals. paige
A modern day Cicero is Jordan Peterson who has 40 rules of life. And with it such duties as “Clean your Room” and “Tell the Truth.” Which of these 40 rule reflect the innate nature of the human. I just received my Jordan Peterson “Hail Lobster” t-shirt with this suggested behavior/duty boldly on it. https://jordanbpeterson.creator-spring.com/listing/hail-lobster-mens-tee jerry
WJM:
I haven’t ( I don’t think) denied anything exists.
If you deny objective morality, then you deny the good to which it is ordered. Still, you seem to go back and forth on that one. When the heat is on, as when you are asked if it is wrong to torture babies for fun, you say yes, but when the heat is off, you revert back to saying that there is no such thing as “wrong,” or if there is, there is no way to know it. You have never resolved this problem.
If you hold that absolute “goods” exist, you are free to try and make that case. I have said that even if they exist, they only have any meaning or value because they offer preferable, enjoyable outcomes in contrast to unenjoyable ones.
They have meaning and value insofar as they reflect, and are ordered to, the good. If there is no good, then there is no meaning. Even if moral choices sometimes display the qualities of a preferable, enjoyable outcome, that doesn’t mean that those qualities define its essential or fundamental nature. You have not been successful in making that case.
This is obviously true; nobody would pursue “the good” if it led them to eternal suffering. How convenient it is that doing what is “the good” also leads to the maximally enjoyable, preferable final outcome.
Perhaps it seems obvious to you because your analysis is incomplete. One might pursue something that is mistakenly believed to be good, but is not. Such a mistake could cause suffering in this world, and in the next.. WJM:
The bad logic is yours, because you are appealing to your premise (that objective goods exist and set such values objectively and universally) to make the case for what is good and valuable for any person.
The bad logic is yours because I didn’t “appeal” to my premise. I simply stated a logical fact: If objective morality exists, it is because the good to which it is ordered, exists. This is true by definition. Objective goodness and objective morality are all part of the same metaphysical package.
You’re making the same kind of circular argument KF does, which I showed in that comment.
I explained why KF’s argument is not circular. Let’s review: You set it up this way:
A certain class of behaviors are caused by duties.” The challenge: “How do we know those duties exist?” The answer: “Because of the way we all behave. The argument is circular.”
As I pointed out, this is a false dichotomy. Duties do not “cause” behavior. it is the knowledge of the duties that does that. The mere existence of a "duty" has no causal power. Thus, your set up does not reflect KF’s argument. He did not say that duties cause behavior. His argument, therefore. is not circular. StephenB
KF, finally you admit your philosophy is rooted in your particular religion and not in any self-evident warrants
That must be why he constantly quotes Cicero.
Let’s pop a cork
No fizz in that bottle. jerry
KF, finally you admit your philosophy is rooted in your particular religion and not in any self-evident warrants. Let's pop a cork. Karen McMannus
Reducing morality to subjectivity. So as that some old lady with a heart of gold, that is no credentials for having a say about what is right and wrong. A tender, sincere, judgement, cultivated with prayer, it is all just nonsense subjectivity. Emotions, and personal character, are thrown out. So on the one side we have the atheist social darwinists with their objective scientific morality, and on the other side we have the intelligent design theorists with their objective morality. And all subjectivity is grinded down to nothing between the two of them. I have never once seen any of you accept the reality of anything inherently subjective. So the destruction of subjectivity is total. mohammadnursyamsu
This argument assumes its own conclusion. There is no need for an inherently good, utterly wise creator God, with regard to morals, if morals are not objective. And there is no need for objective morals if an inherently good, utterly wise creator God does not exist. Because you have already concluded that an inherently good, utterly wise creator God exists, in your worldview moral values must be objective. This in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary. Pulling in human error and free will to plug the leaks in your logic will not stop this ship from sinking.
Your statement is nonsense. As a start define morals. Essentially they are just actions that lead to desired states. If some desired states flow from the nature of humans they are definitely objective. For example, a desire for continuous existence and the desire to achieve certain states are innate. Most believe these are both true. If you don’t then the evidence is against you. You can choose not to believe this. But you will have little evidence to justify your beliefs. Then what caused the nature of humans? Is it God? A likely source. What other source is there? if so, then the morals flow from God unless you can identify another source. The flow. God=> human nature => objectives for species => morals. There can be additional morals that flow from what is called revelation. God=> revelation => ultimate objective of humans => additional morals. jerry
KF, post 786 was by Karen, not me. I still don't know what you were talking about at 797 when you wrote, "VL, newspeak does not create actual rights, law or duties. KF" Viola Lee
Paige, it seems you will not follow a link, so here again id Lewis Vaughn:
Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts. Some think that tolerance is entailed by cultural relativism. But there is no necessary connection between tolerance and the doctrine. Indeed, the cultural relativist cannot consistently advocate tolerance while maintaining his relativist standpoint. To advocate tolerance is to advocate an objective moral value. But if tolerance is an objective moral value, then cultural relativism must be false, because it says that there are no objective moral values. Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, that social reformers can never be morally right, that moral disagreements between individuals in the same culture amount to arguments over whether they disagree with their culture, that other cultures cannot be legitimately criticized, and that moral progress is impossible. Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude. It seems that any nonmoral facts will do, as long as they affect attitudes. Perhaps the most far-reaching implication of emotivism is that nothing is actually good or bad. There simply are no properties of goodness and badness. There is only the expression of favorable or unfavorable emotions or attitudes toward something.
In short, relativism, subjectivism and emotivism are not credible answers regarding morality. KF kairosfocus
KM, it is quite clear that I responded to your ill advised substance and tone in 786. For cause. KF kairosfocus
KF, you have made an "Inference to best explanation." Others have made different inferences. Your inference makes morals objective. Other inferences don't. Viola Lee
Paige, no. Inference to best explanation across candidates is abductive reasoning not question begging. In the case, Hume's guillotine on is-is leaping to ought ought, is answerable by something at root level that is and grounds ought. A serious candidate is on the table, if you object, kindly provide another ______ KF PS: Reducing morality to subjectivity is tantamount to endorsing both widespread grand delusion undermining credibility of reason and leading to reduction to might and/or manipulation make "right," "rights," "justice" etc. No sane person should go there. kairosfocus
VL I also see that referencing 1984 is the fashionable way to dismiss other people’s thoughts these days. Name-calling is usually not considered an argument. A little ironic given Orwell's six rules on writing: :)
1) Never use a metaphor, simile or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. 2) Never use a long word where a short one will do. 3) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out. 4) Never use the passive where you can use the active. 5) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent. 6) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.
paige
KF
Similarly, given our is-ought challenge, post Hume, we can see that the only place where these can be bridged satisfactorily is in the root of reality. This identifies the only serious candidate to do that: the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being.
This argument assumes its own conclusion. There is no need for an inherently good, utterly wise creator God, with regard to morals, if morals are not objective. And there is no need for objective morals if an inherently good, utterly wise creator God does not exist. Because you have already concluded that an inherently good, utterly wise creator God exists, in your worldview moral values must be objective. This in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary. Pulling in human error and free will to plug the leaks in your logic will not stop this ship from sinking. paige
Vividbleau @796,
Where can I see one?
You can observe the Rhinoceros unicornis vividly at many zoos. -Q Querius
I have the creationist conceptual scheme. All defined, all integrated, logically functional, in accordance with the logic used in common discourse. I don't see any competition whatsoever. You don't understand the difference between facts and opinions. Which is basically like saying you don't understand 1 + 1 =2. You already use the logic of subjectivity, and objectivity, in common discourse. The logic is not hidden somewhere, to be found out, like the knowledge of photosynthesis, you actively use that logic already in daily life. The logic is right in front of you, directly available to you. Yet, you don't know. Things in the mind, like a unicorn, are objective, meaning they can be identified with a fact, forced by the evidence of it. They are not subjective. Only things on the side of what makes a choice are subjective. Emotions, personal character, the spirit, the soul, God. You want to put a unicorn in the mind, together with the emotion joy, in one category, as being subjective. Total logic error. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Obviously, joy is in category 1, it can only be identified with a chosen opinion. A fantasy of a unicorn, in the mind, it belongs in category number 2, the existence of it a matter of fact, forced by the evidence of it. No doubt about it. mohammadnursyamsu
At 797 KF made a remark to me, and I didn't know what he was talking about. I see he was probably (maybe?) referring to 784 where I quoted Sev with approval. KF, it would be good, I think, to reference the post # you are responding to, for clarity. Just a suggestion. I also see that referencing 1984 is the fashionable way to dismiss other people's thoughts these days. Name-calling is usually not considered an argument. Viola Lee
At 804 ,Mohammadnursyamsu writes, "This whole debate is total bullshit, except of course for my contributions." Refreshingly honesty. Wrong, of course, but an honest appraisal of himself. Just another example (there are others here) of someone who thinks his way is the one and only way. Viola Lee
re 803: Hmmm. I don't recall being all through this several times. Jerry, your comments about neurons and hormones basically offers a materialistic explanation. And even if we were to be sure that such physical states produce thoughts (a materialistic explanation), the conscious thoughts and feelings are not not neurons or hormones: they exist in consciousness. My thought of a unicorn is not the unicorn itself (which doesn't exist in the physical world), and it is not the physical brain state (even if it is produced by that state.) So the question is is how, and in what sense, do they exist. The bigger question is are they subjective or objective? I don't think people using those words in this discussion have a uniform understanding of what they mean, that they are being used consistently, or even if they are being used in ways that make them opposites of each other. If objective means existing outside of individual minds, then my thoughts are not objective. In fact, there is no way that someone can confirm that I am actually having a thought because the ways I convey that thought to others is objective through speech or writing. Can I say I am thinking of a unicorn but not really be thinking of a unicorn? But if my thoughts are not objective, are they subjective? Well, yes, in the sense that only I, the subject (agent) of myself can experience them. But, to me, in another sense, they are objective because I can sense them (even if no one else can). And if we think of the subject/object structure of our language, I (the subject) have the thought (object.) Is this really the way it is, or is this understanding more a product of language than it is about what is really going on when I have thoughts. Viola Lee
This whole debate is total bullshit, except ofcourse for my contributions. There can be no doubt about it whatsoever, that throwing out subjectivity is what is causing the downfall of civilization. Subjectivity in general, that is a BIG issue. The issues you are all talking about, is nothing in comparison, it is nitpicking. Please properly evaluate the importance of subjectivity in general. There can be no other conclusion, than that subjectivity is of obvious fundamental importance. I see thousands and thousands of atheists on facebook, who all fail to acknowledge the reality of inherently subjective things. They all make the argument, if there is no scientific evidence for it, then it's not real, and thrown out. Over and over, and over, incessantly, they make that same argument. Which means ordinary emotions like love, fear, joy, and personal charcter, like courage, kindness, whatever, it is all objectified, or thrown out. All what is inherently subjective, is mangled. And then after they have totally mangled emotions and personal character, they end up with bad personal opinions about what is good, loving and beautiful. Bad political opinions, bad religious opinons. Causing personal, and societal catastrophy. Everyone must learn the difference between matters of opinion and matters of fact, in school. That is basic stuff, like learning 1 + 1 = 2 , or abc. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
I am thinking of a unicorn. Unicorns don’t exist. Does my thought of a unicorn exist?
Probably some day someone might show that certain neuron connections are associated with certain thoughts or in this case of a thought about an unicorn. Humans have advanced tremendously through thoughts of imaginary things, things that don’t exist in the physical world. Children’s stories are just one such example. Frictionless ice and weightless elephants used in thought experiments are another.
If so, is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective
It’s obviously objective (factual) at some level but as we all know thoughts vary considerably from minute to minute. I’m not sure what is meant by the word subjective. Your concept of an unicorn may differ somewhat from mine. Maybe you should define ”subjective.”
I love my wife. Does my love exist subjectively or objectively.
it probably exists objectively in the sense that feelings may be quantified by an internal flow of hormones but also by a series of thoughts that spontaneously arise that are somehow related to these quantifiable emotions. It also may be associated with something that has no physical presence in our world. We have been all through this several times. jerry
Viola Lee asks:
I am thinking of a unicorn. Unicorns don’t exist. Does my thought of a unicorn exist? If so, is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective. I love my wife. Does my love exist subjectively or objectively. What do you think about these two scenarios?
These are the kind of questions that I come here to discover. That 's some zen master level **** right there. William J Murray
KM, I see your attempt to be snide that I chose cases from foundational texts for our civilisation that you don't like. Bias duly noted, I will pick Jesus' sense of the good and Paul's insight on love over your reactions to same any day. Where, you will see I used these as indicative cases not authorities to be exegeted, duly notifying of why ahead of doing so. As in, ostensive definition. Next, I saw your remark regarding eminent historic theologians, with obvious extension to the undersigned, the one who has been using warrant in defining knowledge here at UD:
They use words in a circular fashion, talking about “good” and “ought” and “warrants”, but I dare you to get to the root meaning of what this is suppose to mean in their imaginations beyond a preference.
False, a strawman accusation. Warrant is primary. You will see that I started from the impact of Gettier, and the response of eminent philosophers, esp Plantinga. Where I took time above to draw out how precisely he gave a bill of requisites then set out to flesh out a theory of warrant. Which I then adapted to the weak sense of knowledge. Of course, it is obvious that you paid little or no attention to that, on whatever convenient excuses that can be traced upthread. So, you are in no place to accuse with warrant, as to circularity on warrant. And the evidence is decisively against you. Next, on morality, you had the bad grace to try to poison discussion from outset rather than examine how examples of a concept in action, a concept that in the first instance arises from natural situations rather than academic ivory towers over-brimming with hyperskeptics, can help us clarify its meaning. Of course, by now you are planning to call me condescending, as a further excuse to evade dealing with the merits. That too will fail. Let's roll the tape a bit, not in order of occurrence but in order that helps me clarify here:
KF, 795: . . . moral government by ought is inherent to any rational, responsible, significantly free creature. That is, it is coeval with that class of living being and is partly constitutive of their nature. [--> this of course points to the same first duties you cannot but appeal to in making objections] KF, 780: Focussing the yardstick example, that young child on the way home from school was coming from education towards fulfillment of potential, to home and family, again ditto. Those were appropriate and good things and contexts, albeit obviously imperfect. Sadly, however, a perverted soul ambushed and captured the child and used the child’s body selfishly and cruelly towards a tainted pleasure, costing the child its life. This was injustice, against neighbour love, frustrating fulfillment of the evident ends of human life, and was against not only due balance of rights, freedoms and duties but also sound conscience, prudence, truth and right reason. just above in 780: We can multiply cases but we have enough to constrain definition. The good is that which fosters or enables a given entity to fulfill or thrive in its innate end [which is often naturally evident], so enhances or expresses its proper nature and in the moral context is identified with what ought to be or be done. The evil by contrast, wrenches what is towards such an end out of alignment with such an end, by that perversity frustrating or blocking fulfillment of the proper end. Thus, evil is a chaotic, perverse parasite on the good that frustrates or at least hampers such proper fulfillment. It is manifest why morally freighted evils are what ought not to be done.
Now, these are anchored in concrete cases, so we are drawing out a pattern of attributes. Being good exists in the sense of towards an end, which may often be naturally evident, e.g. a pencil or (as I recall from cheap pencils in my youth), their erasers. We could see why Elephant brand was inferior to Berol or Faber and we saw that vinyl erasers were a breakthrough, oh 15 years later. About the time I switched to 0.5 mm clutch pencils. BTW, Al body Staedtler sharpeners ruled the roost too. So, we see that being good is an inherently telic concept, where ends are often naturally manifest to the eye of reason and simple experience with pencils can teach a lot by instructive example. Extend to coloured pencils and to paint brushes for art. In that context, we find responsible rational agency, us. Freedom then raises the issue of being guided through wisdom. Thus, ought vs is. And as we are dealing with root level concepts, they will have cases where first principles are pervasive in their action, think law of identity. But we can see the pattern emerge without question-begging. And no, preference is secondary at best, it is often opposed to what is good because our tastes and impulses are prone to be disordered. Soundness may require surrendering such, and for cause. The good vs the evil comes out from such reflection, and the background of actual cases controls how that happens. Where, the result is as already given and clipped. The good expresses, fosters or enhances fulfillment of the relevant ends, e.g. one's pleasure or gratification cannot justly come at cost of an innocent child's innocence and life. Those who deny or evade this and its consequences descend into nihilistic absurdity. The evil, chaotically frustrates the due ends. A cheap eraser that smears a pink-black stain on the paper is not good enough, and the cleanness of vinyl is an obvious improvement, even on the sanded rubber of high quality pencil erasers from in the day. BTW, bread was also a good eraser. We see a coherent pattern. KF kairosfocus
The troll is back. Was there withdrawal symptoms? Please don’t feed the troll. It’s already about 790 comments too long. jerry
SB said:
On the contrary. It is your denial of the “good” and what is “right” that prompts you to seek out arbitrary goals, such as the goal of enjoyment, as opposed to the more meaningful goal of happiness, which is related to the good.
Enjoyment isn't any more an arbitrary goal than 4 is an arbitrarily chosen result of 2+2. It's the universal, inescapable goal, immediate or eventual, of all decision, whether one is religious, spiritual, atheist, or even a sociopath. I haven't ( I don't think) denied anything exists. If you hold that absolute "goods" exist, you are free to try and make that case. I have said that even if they exist, they only have any meaning or value because they offer preferable, enjoyable outcomes in contrast to unenjoyable ones. This is obviously true; nobody would pursue "the good" if it led them to eternal suffering. How convenient it is that doing what is "the good" also leads to the maximally enjoyable, preferable final outcome. WJM said:
It doesn’t matter what world we are in; if what is good *for* a person is not ultimately expressed in preferable, more enjoyable outcomes, then what is “good” *for* a person has no appreciable value for the individual to pursue for any reason.
SB replies:
Bad logic. What is valuable for a person is determined by what is good for him. If there is no such thing as good, then there is no such thing as valuable..
The bad logic is yours, because you are appealing to your premise (that objective goods exist and set such values objectively and universally) to make the case for what is good and valuable for any person. My argument extends from what I have proposed are inescapable existential commodities and/or self-evident truths I outlined in #618. You're making the same kind of circular argument KF does, which I showed in that comment. I'll repost it here for convenience:
One might approach ontology in this manner: are there existentially necessary, inescapable commodities in any and every ontological framework held by a sentient being, regardless of preference? Yes, there are. 1. I exist. 2. “Other” exists (or else I could not identify “I”. 3. The fundamental principles of logic inescapably apply in all possible ontologies (or else none of the above is possible – the absurdity of the contrary principle. 4. I necessarily experience varying states or conditions (or else none of the above is possible such as distinguishing between self and other.) 5. I have free will. 6. I make choices (at least in terms of what I think and how to think about experiences.) 7. Choices are inescapably preferential (including meta-preferentially,) direct and/or abstract. 8. Thus, “oughtness” is existentially unavoidable in terms of preferential choices as the result of the above. 9. “Oughtness” requires comprehensible sequences of experiences of varying conditions and states. 10. To satisfy the above, at least some experiences are comprehensibly contingent on our choices IF anyone thinks of something I missed, let me know. I don’t think any of the above can be denied without it resulting in an absurdity. Now, let’s look at some other features of KF’s ontology: 1. Morality/moral duties that are distinct from general, or “mere” preference 2. That we are contingent beings living in a specifically created, single, contingent, objectively existing common world. 3. That a maximally great and good God created us and the universes and the system we live in and cannot escape. Are those commodities inescapable aspects of any and all possible ontologies? As I’ve argued elsewhere, no. Not even remotely so, at least not by any argument presented here. Because the contraries do not represent absurdities, if nothing else. So, KF et al must argue that these commodities are actual because they cannot be shown to be unavoidable. And this is where that argument fails: he can only make those arguments by assuming those ontological commodities are actual. Those additional assumed ontological commodities inform every aspect of his argument, from how the logic is applied and in what context, to what evidence is about and what it implies and how it is interpreted; what true statements are about and what they imply. It’s an entirely circular argument. IMO, KF doesn’t see this because he has mistaken his particular ontology for inescapable, absolute reality.
SB said:
For you, there is no such thing as a favorable or unfavorable outcome. –there is only the outcome that happens to proceed from making preferential choices, which can be very bad in themselves.
I'm assuming you mean this in terms of "final" or "eternal" outcomes, since it should be clear by now that my perspective absolutely takes into consideration a wide variety of current and potential future outcomes and variables, at least up until the point I die. As I have said, I have tested and worked with my model for many years successfully. I don't leave outcomes "to chance;" I do my best to acquire preferable outcomes. If you are referring to "final" or "eternal" outcomes post-death, then let me inform you: I am actively pursuing my preferred, maximally enjoyable post-death, eternal situation.
This is another example of how one’s preferences can be destructive.
Yes, we have competing preferences in relationship to enjoyments. Yes, some or many preferences can lead to unenjoyable outcomes even if one thinks otherwise, or if one doesn't consider the eventual outcomes. Yes, managing the pursuit of enjoyments, assessing the outcomes of preferential choices, and critically thinking through the impact any choice has, has had, or probably will have on your future enjoyment capacity can be a difficult task. I agree with all that. William J Murray
KF, I think you are responding to someone else. I dropped out of the conversation a few days ago, except for a brief foray with Vivid last night. Viola Lee
VL, newspeak does not create actual rights, law or duties. KF kairosfocus
Q “Actually, unicorns do exist. Don’t believe me?” Where can I see one? Vivid vividbleau
Sev, moral government by ought is inherent to any rational, responsible, significantly free creature. That is, it is coeval with that class of living being and is partly constitutive of their nature. KF PS: I should add that foundational Christian theological writing specifically disclaims that core morality is unique to Christian thought, or for that matter, Hebraic thought. On the contrary, it speaks of a core of conscience attestede moral government coeval with our humanity, thus we read:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
The usual Internet Atheist talk-points are attacking a strawman caricature. kairosfocus
VL “Does my thought of a unicorn exist? “ Your thought of of a unicorn exists because you exist but your thought of an existing unicorn does not mean it does exist. I think God exists but that does not mean God exists. Flat earth earthers think the earth is flat but that does not mean it is flat because they think it is so. “If so, is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective.” Your thought are objective because your existence is objective but that does not mean your thoughts about things makes those things objective. “I love my wife. Does my love exist subjectively or objectively” Well actually you think you love your wife. Because you are a person that actually and objectively exists with all that entails your thoughts are objective but that’s all one can say.. Vivid vividbleau
Viola Lee @787,
Vivid, I am thinking of a unicorn. Unicorns don’t exist.
Actually, unicorns do exist. Don't believe me? What we now know as the Indian rhino (Rhinoceros unicornis) came from the wildly exaggerated description of the Greek physician and historian Ctesias around 400 BCE in his monograph, On India. Pliny the Elder (23-79 CE) later wrote, “The unicorn is the fiercest animal, and it is said that it is impossible to capture one alive. It has the body of a horse, the head of a stag, the feet of an elephant, the tail of a boar, and a single, black horn three feet long in the middle of its forehead.” That the Scots and Hasbro Studios also exaggerated their depiction of the Indian rhino doesn't mean that rhinos don't exist. Quantum physics now seems to tell us experimentally that whether something transitions from a mathematical probability wave (called the wavefunction or psi) into particles and waves depends entirely on whether it's observed by human consciousness (or as part of a Von Neumann chain) as Eugene Wigner asserted. According to the Von Neumann-Wigner interpretation, this is what determines "reality" rather than 19th century deterministic materialism. -Q Querius
Seversky: But that’s not what we see. What we see is Christians claiming that this objective morality is actually their morality. Well, in fairness to Christians, there isn't just one brand of Christianity. There's quite a variety of them with differing moralities. (E.g., birth control or not. Capital punishment or not. Gay marriage or not. Hyper veneration of Mary or not. Etc.) Which actually supports your point. Karen McMannus
Vivid, I’m sorry to say that Frodo doesn’t exist, so you can’t a hold of him. Viola Lee
KM “What exactly are you saying they believe exists? “ Ask them. I know , I know you have been. Vivid vividbleau
Vivid: At least the commentators that believe objective morality exists are engaging in discourse about something that actually exists, I mean about something they BELIEVE actually exists What exactly are you saying they believe exists? They use words in a circular fashion, talking about "good" and "ought" and "warrants", but I dare you to get to the root meaning of what this is suppose to mean in their imaginations beyond a preference. Karen McMannus
VL “What do you think about these two scenarios?” So you don’t know how I can get a hold of Frodo? vividbleau
Vivid, I am thinking of a unicorn. Unicorns don't exist. Does my thought of a unicorn exist? If so, is my thought of a unicorn objective or subjective. I love my wife. Does my love exist subjectively or objectively. What do you think about these two scenarios? Viola Lee
KF: Jn 10:9, 1 Cor 13: 4 Are you opening the door to a Bible study here? Is that where your definition of "good" is found? If so, then fair enough. It's Bible/theology study time. Should have put that in the title of the OP: L&FP42: is knowledge warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief based on my view of the Bible and understanding of God, religion, and the Catholic Church (or whatever)? Would have saved a lot of time. KF: The good is that which fosters or enables a given entity to fulfill or thrive in its innate end [which is often naturally evident], so enhances or expresses its proper nature and in the moral context is identified with what ought to be or be done. What does "fullfill", "thrive" and "prosper" mean here? When a lion kills a man, is that "fulfilling", "thriving" and "prospering" for the lion, and therefore "good"? And who is the final judge on the matter in terms of "naturally evident." You? Me? And when we disagree? What does "moral context" and "ought" mean here? Until you've clearly nailed down what "good" means , instead of your circular and subjective dodges, they don't mean anything objective or self-evident. I would admonish you to stop dancing in circles. You're about to dance right off a cliff. ;) the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, So we get to talk theology/religion now? Without "I'm going to take my football home" whining from you? Karen McMannus
VL Yes to what Sev wrote, So where is Frodo I have been trying to reach him? Vivid vividbleau
Yes to what Sev wrote,
But the characters and places in the stories, while they “exist” vividly in the minds of those who read the books and watch the movies, are nowhere to be found in objective reality. So do they exist or don’t they? Doesn’t that rather depend on what you mean by existence? If, as I believe, moral codes are created by people for people and exist only in the minds of the people who are guided – or not – by them, then they have no existence in objective reality. If all humanity were wiped out by a collision with a passing asteroid our moralities would disappear along with us.
Viola Lee
Kairosfocus/780
Focussing the yardstick example, that young child on the way home from school was coming from education towards fulfillment of potential, to home and family, again ditto. Those were appropriate and good things and contexts, albeit obviously imperfect. Sadly, however, a perverted soul ambushed and captured the child and used the child’s body selfishly and cruelly towards a tainted pleasure, costing the child its life. This was injustice, against neighbour love, frustrating fulfillment of the evident ends of human life, and was against not only due balance of rights, freedoms and duties but also sound conscience, prudence, truth and right reason.
I'm pretty sure we all agree that the crime you describe was an evil act and an appalling tragedy for all concerned. There is no difference between us on that.
Similarly, given our is-ought challenge, post Hume, we can see that the only place where these can be bridged satisfactorily is in the root of reality.
This is where we differ. I believe that the overwhelming majority of human beings, had they been present at that attack would have done anything they could to prevent it, without a second thought and regardless of sex, gender, race, creed or color. They would not have waited to consult their various moral codes for guidance. That human reaction is not based in logic but in emotions like love and empathy. The real question, which is the difference between us, is are those human emotions a sufficient ground for moral guidance or must we rely on that which is allegedly dispensed by a Creator, even though we have no way of knowing how this Creator arrived at its judgements? Seversky
Sev “Does The Lord of the Rings exist?” Where might I write Frodo? I have been trying to reach him but they keep referring me to the actor who played him. BTW you think unicorns are pink or are they a different color? Vivid vividbleau
Vividbleau/774
If something does not exist objectively it does not exist. If objective morality does not exist then all this talk about morality is nonsense. We might as well be discussing tooth fairies or unicorns.
Does The Lord of the Rings exist? For those, like me, who believe in an objective reality, the books and the movies certainly exist there. But the characters and places in the stories, while they "exist" vividly in the minds of those who read the books and watch the movies, are nowhere to be found in objective reality. So do they exist or don't they? Doesn't that rather depend on what you mean by existence? If, as I believe, moral codes are created by people for people and exist only in the minds of the people who are guided - or not - by them, then they have no existence in objective reality. If all humanity were wiped out by a collision with a passing asteroid our moralities would disappear along with us. Yet the behavior of human societies, cultures and individuals are clearly influenced by moral principles. Just not to the same extent. For morals to have an objective existence they would somehow have to be woven into the physical fabric of the Universe. Moreover, they would have to influence everyone to the same extent and in the same direction, Just as the physical force of gravity pulls everyone, regardless of sex, gender, race, creed or color towards the Earth's center of gravity so an objective moral force should be pulling everyone, regardless of sex, gender, race, creed or color towards the same moral conclusions. But that's not what we see. What we see is Christians claiming that this objective morality is actually their morality. They would utterly reject the idea that this alleged objective morality could be the morality of Islam or Buddhism, for example. Besides, the notion that a Creator embedded a morality in the Universe specifically for the guidance of a species of ape that would not appear for well over 13 billion years, while possible, is borderline absurd. Seversky
KM (attn Paige et al), really? If you look at the OP, you will find that from the beginning, this is about knowledge as warranted, credibly true (and so reliable) belief. Now, you seem to want a concise, clear definition of good vs evil, which of course does not invent the realities and can/will be rejected at will, given the problem of hyperskepticism. So, first, I point out that life (biological sense) is very real though we cannot provide a precising definition that attracts general agreement. The reality of good and evil has nothing to do with success or failure of definitions as held hostage by any particular individual or group. However, for those who seek clarity, we can establish a more fundamental kind of definition or identification by cases pointed out and family resemblance thereto, ostensive definition. That is, we start from the example and move to the pattern. A capital case in point is the root of moral virtues, love. Love seeks the good of the cherished as valuable in itself and as having a proper goal of full flourishing. Here, then, is Jesus of Nazareth in John 10:
Jn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [KJV]
Paul of Tarsus amplifies, in a famous text:
1 Cor 13: 4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;2 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends . . . [ESV]
We may make a note on the Ciceronian first duties: to truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant], to sound conscience [which values and serves the right, good and true], to neighbour [as valuable as oneself], so to fairness and justice etc. These too represent the voice of conscience pointing to the good of love. Where, these duties are self-evidently, inescapably applicable to us as reasonable, responsible, significantly free creatures facing the is-ought gap. So any definition of good must reasonably fit with the above as cases of the good. Similarly, ponder a good pencil, or a good compass, or good vision, or good bodily health, or or even a good definition. We see, quickly that these are good towards an end, one that may often be naturally evident to the eye of common sense reason. That too, shapes our definition. We can multiply cases but we have enough to constrain definition.
The good is that which fosters or enables a given entity to fulfill or thrive in its innate end [which is often naturally evident], so enhances or expresses its proper nature and in the moral context is identified with what ought to be or be done. The evil by contrast, wrenches what is towards such an end out of alignment with such an end, by that perversity frustrating or blocking fulfillment of the proper end. Thus, evil is a chaotic, perverse parasite on the good that frustrates or at least hampers such proper fulfillment. It is manifest why morally freighted evils are what ought not to be done.
Focussing the yardstick example, that young child on the way home from school was coming from education towards fulfillment of potential, to home and family, again ditto. Those were appropriate and good things and contexts, albeit obviously imperfect. Sadly, however, a perverted soul ambushed and captured the child and used the child's body selfishly and cruelly towards a tainted pleasure, costing the child its life. This was injustice, against neighbour love, frustrating fulfillment of the evident ends of human life, and was against not only due balance of rights, freedoms and duties but also sound conscience, prudence, truth and right reason. Similarly, given our is-ought challenge, post Hume, we can see that the only place where these can be bridged satisfactorily is in the root of reality. This identifies the only serious candidate to do that: the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of our loyalty and of the responsible, rational service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. Maximal greatness means the core attributes of God are fulfilled to maximum compossible degree. KF kairosfocus
Timr “Vividbleau – you don’t believe subjective things exist?” Why would you think otherwise? Vivid vividbleau
When you give me your definition, I’ll give you mine
Sounds like a game we used to play when we were kids.
if you show me yours , I’ll show you mine
jerry
Vividbleau - you don't believe subjective things exist? To use a much quoted example here, you don't believe that people have preferences for ice cream flavours? TimR
KM “Now, you Thomas Aquinas devotees,” I prefer Augustine is that a good thing? ( Sarc) “At least the commentators that believe objective morality exists are engaging in discourse about something that actually exists” I mean “ about something they BELIEVE actually exists” Vivid vividbleau
Now, you Thomas Aquinas devotees, give us a clear and concise definition of "good/right" and "bad/evil." When you give me your definition, I'll give you mine. KF started this thread. Go, KF, let's hear it. Thanks in advance. Karen McMannus
I guess I come at this from a different perspective than most. If something does not exist objectively it does not exist. If objective morality does not exist then all this talk about morality is nonsense. We might as well be discussing tooth fairies or unicorns. At least the commentators that believe objective morality exists are engaging in discourse about something that actually exists. The rest of you are discoursing about unicorns and tooth faries. Vivid vividbleau
Sandy: Self interest (NOT preference) of soul, because body don’t care about morality. Body want pleasure here, now. Body is dumb as a rock. Atheists try to justify logically why they chose what body wants which is a comedy. Umm, body is connected to mind. Body makes no choices. Mind makes choices. People make choices based on preference/outcome/self-interest. Sometimes the outcome is foggy and not at all clear. People are stupid. You can thank the creators for that. They often make choices that are not in their "best interests" because they cannot clearly the outcome for themselves. Which is an argument against your (I suspect) worldview. Now, if you want to make the argument that people are stupid, and can't clearly see the outcome of their choices. Well, that's patently obvious. And only a fool would disagree. But then, all the fellas out here who think there is some unending torture for the idiots who choose against their best interests have a lot of explaining to do with regards to their philosophy. And their choice of Ultimate Rulegiver. And Brain-Maker. You don't torture a dog forever because he disobeys. That's just... evil. (Notice, I didn't mention any particular religion.) Karen McMannus
KM
KF, I’ll be happy to answer your question if you clearly and concisely define what you mean by “good/right” and “evil/wrong”.
If you can get this, I will start to believe in miracles? :) paige
KF, I'll be happy to answer your question if you clearly and concisely define what you mean by "good/right" and "evil/wrong". Karen McMannus
Self-interest/preference is “baked” into “morality.
Self interest (NOT preference) of soul, because body don't care about morality. Body want pleasure here, now. Body is dumb as a rock. Atheists try to justify logically why they chose what body wants which is a comedy. Sandy
KM, why do you think that the doing of the right leads to benefits somehow subverts the issue that it is to be done as it is the right thing to do? The two are not contradictory, indeed that is in part how Kant's CI works. Evils parasite on the good and twist or frustrate it from its proper end. Fulfillment of proper end will naturally have benefits, and leads to well-being. KF kairosfocus
SB: The problem is that you do not recognize the existence of a “good” for the person or a “right” thing to do. So why do you even bring it up?
To demonstrate that even if one accepts those things arguendo, it still boils down to preference in consideration of enjoyment potentials of outcomes.
On the contrary. It is your denial of the “good” and what is “right” that prompts you to seek out arbitrary goals, such as the goal of enjoyment, as opposed to the more meaningful goal of happiness, which is related to the good. The downward progression of an alcoholic or a slave to pornography is chocked full of misleadingly and destructively enjoyable experiences, all of which will lead to an unfavorable outcome. For you, there is no such thing as a favorable or unfavorable outcome. –there is only the outcome that happens to proceed from making preferential choices, which can be very bad in themselves. WJM
It doesn’t matter what world we are in; if what is good *for* a person is not ultimately expressed in preferable, more enjoyable outcomes, then what is “good” *for* a person has no appreciable value for the individual to pursue for any reason.
Bad logic. What is valuable for a person is determined by what is good for him. If there is no such thing as good, then there is no such thing as valuable.. WJM:
;In any possible world, if the “good” one is pursuing is not organized as, ultimately, a preferable, more enjoyable consequence than the alternative, nobody would even call it a “good.” Goods must be, ultimately, consequentially, preferable and more enjoyable than the alternative, or it isn’t even a “good.”
A thing can be preferable without being enjoyable and vice versa. Love is preferable over hate, but many people find enjoyment in their hatred. What they don’t find is happiness, which is the product of a well-ordered psyche, which in turn, is the product of the good.
Every spiritual system and every religion (and even worldly advertising) attempts to sell their product (or advised behavior) by claiming it offers a preferable, more enjoyable –outcome.
With respect to worldly advertising, I would agree. Quite often, the merchant makes extravagant promises and the customer, naïve about sales psychology, reacts as if every word in the presentation was true. In the spiritual system, however, there is a price to be paid, which is the challenge of changing one’s life. More often than not, the recipients of that message do not want to change because they would “prefer” to remain in their comfort zone. This is another example of how one’s preferences can be destructive. Sinners are called to repent, for example, on the grounds that they will enjoy eternal life and escape eternal death if they do. In many cases, they respond by saying, “who needs it.” Through the force of habit (there’s that word again), they have learned to “prefer” the wrong thing. StephenB
Sandy: A moral world is meaningless WITHOUT punishment and reward. FLASHNEWS:This is a moral world. Which is another way of saying, "morality" requires self-interested outcomes. Self-interest/preference is "baked" into "morality." There is no escaping it. Karen McMannus
Punishments and rewards are attached. Every time.
A moral world is meaningless WITHOUT punishment and reward. FLASHNEWS:This is a moral world. Sandy
Jerry, That's a weird comment. Karen McMannus
It’s always either “do this, and I will do that for you”, or, “do this and I won’t do that to you.”
Yes,
Love your neighbor as yourself and The Good Samaritan
Actually a little fear goes a long way as I look around and see all those wearing masks. jerry
An interesting fact is that in the Hebrew scriptures, the Christian scriptures, and all others that I can think of, all commandments and demands of the god(s) are always accompanied with an appeal to desire. For example, "honor your father and mother, that your days may be long upon the earth." It's always either "do this, and I will do that for you", or, "do this and I won't do that to you." Punishments and rewards are attached. Every time. Karen McMannus
Again, when one experiences joy, then the expression of that is spontaneous, which means it is by free will. From the joy it is chosen to turn the corners of the mouth upward, a smile, or whatever. So from joy, things are chosen. But you argue assbackwards, that joy is chosen. A logical impossibility, a category error. Joy is in category number 1, while you put it in category number 2. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
Notice how the troll/parasite responds. It's not about preferences but a limited set of preferences.
in consideration of enjoyment potentials of outcomes.
Which has been obvious from the start. So the troll has limited preference to those that don't cause his destruction. Big deal. I don't like getting hit by a car either.       Are we talking about ice cream flavors now? By the way I prefer Nick's Swedish Cookie Dough ice cream. It's 1/3 the calories of Hagen Daz and taste just as good. So that is my preference. My second preference is for Nick's triple chocolate. If you haven't discovered Nick's ice cream, look for it. It's in about half of the supermarkets here in New Hampshire. All these hundreds of comments and it's just about the ice cream flavors the troll likes!!! jerry
While I cannot put the following in terms of alcohol because I don't even like alcoholic beverages, I can put this in terms of food. There are foods I really enjoy and prefer to eat in the direct here and now, but I do not enjoy how those foods affect me in the longer term beyond enjoying the taste and texture. So, like any other categories of enjoyments, I manage my choices - preferentially - according to various and varying overall impacts they have on my general enjoyment of my life. For instance, I love bread, pasta, potatoes and rice, but those foods negatively impact my overall enjoyment very quickly after their consumption and also for a much longer period of time. So, I manage my choices of when and how much to eat of those things in consideration of the pattern of my experiences with them. I prefer to stay cognizant of the longer-term consequences of eating those foods to be able to maintain a consistent, overall higher level of enjoyment in my life. It's all about developing and maintaining the maximum amount of overall enjoyment, which includes qualities such as: satisfaction, contentment, enthusiasm, wonder, joy, happiness, love, friendship, pleasure, a sense of being "whole," and avoiding that which I find unenjoyable, such as: pain, suffering, disquiet, angst, discomfort, frustration, misery, outrage, discontent, fear, etc. As you and others say, some immediate, preferential enjoyments can, and often do, lead to an eventual disruption of other enjoyments that can be had in life. I prefer to not let them do so, so I manage those immediate pleasures, so to speak. I either ration them to one degree or another, or I just don't partake of them at all. The "Path of Enjoyment," as I call it, is not a path (at least not for me) of hedonism or unbridled immediate gratifications; it's a broad system of recognizing what you enjoy, how they affect you in the longer term, how they contribute or detract from your overall sense of enjoyment, and managing all of that to maximum enjoyment effect - however I personally define that according to my particular preferences. And, it has worked for me amazingly well - once I just put all this in terms of my personal, preferential enjoyments. I often tell people I'm living in paradise because of how enjoyable my life has become by arranging my perspective this way. William J Murray
SB said:
The problem is that you do not recognize the existence of a “good” for the person or a “right” thing to do. So why do you even bring it up?
To demonstrate that even if one accepts those things arguendo, it still boils down to preference in consideration of enjoyment potentials of outcomes.
In the real world, it is a good thing to escape alcoholism or overcome it, but in your world there is no such thing as an outcome that is good *for* the person.
It doesn't matter what world we are in; if what is good *for* a person is not ultimately expressed in preferable, more enjoyable outcomes, then what is "good" *for* a person has no appreciable value for the individual to pursue for any reason.
In your world, there is no good to pursue.
In any possible world, if the "good" one is pursuing is not organized as, ultimately, a preferable, more enjoyable consequence than the alternative, nobody would even call it a "good." Goods must be, ultimately, consequentially, preferable and more enjoyable than the alternative, or it isn't even a "good." You cannot make an argument about "good" or "the good" or "the moral good" or "the right thing to do" without referring to or implying a preferential, more enjoyable outcome, because without that, you couldn't even identify a good AS a good. William J Murray
I agree with the commenters here that think WJM is a nonsensical troll. Andrew asauber
Karen McMannus WJM has demonstrated and articulated
Nothing... Sandy
To think preference rules all, is a total mistake which says that the "joy" is in the chosen option. Obviously the joy is in the spirit doing the deciding, and not in the chosen option. The idea of preference is derived from the concept of choice as meaning to figure out the best option. It is the wrong idea of choice. That is to say, it is wrong in that it is not the fundamental idea of choice. The fundamental idea of choice is in terms of spontaneity, to make one of alternative futures the present, spontaneously. In science this is also noted as (true) randomness. To choose in terms of what is best, is a complicated way of deciding which can be deconstructed to spontaneous choices. So everything is ruled spontaneously by the spirit. I'm probably the most intolerant of all of you, because I got it all down to a tightly integrated logical conceptual scheme. I cannot change anything in it, or the conceptual scheme collapses. There is no kumbaya with different points of view, only the creationist conceptual scheme is right, and all the other ideas are wrong. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
WJM:
Preferences and enjoyments are not solely about direct experiences, as I’ve said several times; they also are about abstract ideas like you just mentioned – what is “good” for the person; what is “the right thing to do,” what may happen in the future as a result, the desire to lose weight, the desire to not become an alcoholic, they have bills they have to pay at the end of the month, etc
. The problem is that you do not recognize the existence of a “good” for the person or a “right” thing to do. So why do you even bring it up? In the real world, it is a good thing to escape alcoholism or overcome it, but in your world there is no such thing as an outcome that is good *for* the person. There are only preferences, and preferred outcomes from the standpoint of the chooser, as opposed to the standpoint of the good. In the real world, if the individual does not pursue what is good for them,, they are likely to be destroyed. In your world, there is no good to pursue.-+ StephenB
You cannot make an argument against preference without invoking it.
No one is making an argument against preference per se. It is just that some preferences lead to self destruction. So the set of preferences is divided into those that are not self destructive and those that are self destructive. So preferences are for all practical purposes limited unless one wants to destroy themselves. So the concept "preference rules all" is nonsense since preferences are essentially limited.         The ones that are acceptable are called moral preferences. jerry
Jerry said:
But it leads to self destruction.
Unless they do not. If it is my preference to make "moral" choices, my preference to serve the combination of abstract and direct goals of being a valued, productive member of society; my preference to treat other kindly, with compassion and consideration; my preference to avoid behaviors that have a good probability of eventually resulting in "self-destruction," etc., do those choices, which are also preferential in nature, inevitably lead to "self-destruction?" Your statement requires that non-self-destruction is preferable to self destruction. You cannot make an argument against preference without invoking it. William J Murray
Preference rules all.
But it leads to self destruction. One can only be a parasite for only so long before he is destroyed/just a few can be parasites for only so long before they are destroyed. Because it leads to their self destruction it is then said to be immoral. jerry
KM said:
WJM has demonstrated and articulated (very nicely) beyond any doubt: Preference rules all. Directly or indirectly.
I appreciate your kind words. This is the reason I decided to build my entire worldview around enjoyment. Preference rules all because it is an intrinsic, inescapable aspect of free will, and preference is always about managing experiential enjoyment. The necessary meaning of sentient life is revealed: enjoyment. Sentient beings cannot do other than preferentially pursue direct and/or abstract enjoyment. William J Murray
WJM, on the contrary, reality of key abstracta including for example accuracy of description of states of affairs -- truth -- is VITAL. KF kairosfocus
SB:
The abstract good is also the objective good. Just because something is abstract doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. The laws of mathematics, like the laws of logic and morality are abstract, but they exist.
KF responded:
Excellent observation, with high relevance.
No, it's entirely irrelevant because all free will choices are ultimately made according to what outcome the individual prefers instantiating or pursuing at any given time. KF said:
KM, the reality is that duties and preferences often clash, a key to many a book plot and to many issues in life.
Unless the "duty" involves sets of consequences, one of which would be preferable over the other for doing (or not doing their duty,) "duty" becomes a meaningless concept. Thus, the value of "doing one's duty" is always necessarily expressed in terms of a preferable outcome, in opposition to an unenjoyable consequence for not doing the duty.
Preferences are effectively emotions, and no emotion is better than soundness of underlying perceptions, expectations, goals and judgements.
You don't get to completely redefine a word for the convenience of your argument. I could as (or even more) easily say the same thing about conscience. You and SB may want preference to be limited to short-term, small, direct or petty concerns, but here is where the logical absurdity of your position is revealed: any argument you make that "duty to the good," or "doing what is right" is different from a preference still relies on a stated or implied outcome that the person in question would find preferential to the alternative of not doing that "duty" or "good." The argument for using sound reasoning, prudence, and warrant is necessarily about achieving sets of preferential outcomes. You cannot make an argument for duty or moral good or even using logic without reference to preferential outcomes. You might as well be trying to argue that 2+2 does not always equal 4. Your only avenue of convincing anyone to adopt your epistemology and behavioral model is to convince them of your inevitable outcome scenario. You cannot make the case otherwise because there is no case to be made otherwise. Unless we are convinced that a preferential (to us) outcome exists, much less is the "only one" available, you cannot expect people to even care about your proposed "duties." But, you seem intent on not trying to make that case. The problem is, it is essential to your entire argument. William J Murray
SB:
The abstract good is also the objective good. Just because something is abstract doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. The laws of mathematics, like the laws of logic and morality are abstract, but they exist.
Excellent observation, with high relevance. KF kairosfocus
PS: Just to keep an eye on Wiki as an index of 101 level radical secularist thought on truth:
Truth is the property of being in accord with fact [--> fact as synonym for actuality] or reality.[1] In everyday language, truth is typically ascribed to things that aim to represent reality or otherwise correspond to it, such as beliefs, propositions, and declarative sentences.[2] [--> a key point is to see that propositions, what is asserted as the case . . . what is/is not -- regarding states of affairs, credibly, are more fundamental, so there is a clear issue of connection between thinking or stating with affirmation or denial and states of affairs of reality] Truth is usually held to be the opposite of falsehood. The concept of truth is discussed and debated in various contexts, including philosophy, art, theology, and science. Most human activities depend upon the concept, where its nature as a concept is assumed rather than being a subject of discussion; these include most of the sciences, law, journalism, and everyday life. Some philosophers view the concept of truth as basic, and unable to be explained in any terms that are more easily understood than the concept of truth itself.[2] [--> which does not mean that elaboration on cases to form and describe a concept is futile] Most commonly, truth is viewed as the correspondence of language or thought to a mind-independent world [--> independent of OUR finite, error prone minds]. This is called the correspondence theory of truth. [--> truth is apt connexion between what is claimed and what is, so logic of being and wider metaphysics enter] Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars, philosophers, and theologians.[2][3] There are many different questions about the nature of truth which are still the subject of contemporary debates, such as: How do we define truth? Is it even possible to give an informative definition of truth? What things are truthbearers and are therefore capable of being true or false? [--> best answer, propositions] Are truth and falsehood bivalent, or are there other truth values? [--> we may have nearness to truth, credible truth, degree of objectivity, mode, contingent vs necessary etc] What are the criteria of truth that allow us to identify it and to distinguish it from falsehood? What role does truth play in constituting knowledge? [--> tie in to epistemology] And is truth always absolute, or can it be relative to one's perspective?
It is easy to get lost in the morass. kairosfocus
F/N: Following up on Truth from the Princeton Book, here, on realism:
A realist is someone who holds that truth involves an appropriate relation between a truthbearer and some portion(s) or aspect(s) of reality . . . . Traditional realists would insist, against traditional idealists and pragmatists, that whether the proposition that snow is white is true depends on whether snow really is white, and not on whether the thought that it is fits comfortably with our other ideas or is convenient to adopt in practice . . . . some realists complain that deflationism [--> which denies that there is a common core to cases of truth] cannot account for a clear commonsense intuition according to which it is snow's being white [--> fact before label] that makes the proposition true—and not vice versa . . . . Deflationists answer that even where a biconditional holds by definition, there generally remains the asymmetry that the term whose definition is involved occurs on one side but not the other, and that is enough to explain and justify a corresponding asymmetry in colloquial language. Thus we may say that if a woman's husband is dead, that makes her (count as) a widow, but not that if she is a widow, that makes her husband (count as) dead. In a similar sense, we may say that if snow is white, that makes the proposition that snow is white (count as) true, but not that if the proposition is true, that makes snow (count as) white. Inflationists may insist that asymmetry
This is a typical modern debate. I cannot bring myself to be overly influenced by nominalism. Snow is white because under certain conditions, frozen water crystals piled up have high reflectivity and the effective surface is strongly scattering so there is not mirror-like reflection from the dielectric surface that forms virtual images as dominant effect. (Specular reflection is different, due to interactions of light with the sea of free electrons that gives metals many of their properties, and yes that is a simplistic view.) So, we see the centrality of logic of being. Snow [a label in English] is a certain thing and it has core characteristics for piled up banks that give rise to particular colouration. Colour, in turn is a perception based on response of objects to light. And again, realities are antecedent to labels. Yes, labels and propositions using such may fail to accurately refer but in many cases they do. That is, after 2300+ years of debates, it remains that IT IS POSSIBLE IN MANY CASES TO "SAY OF WHAT IS, THAT IT IS; AND OF WHAT IS NOT, THAT IT IS NOT." Which is what was needed at core. In that context, credible truth is what we have good [but in many cases, potentially defeat-able] reason to hold true; cf. the Plantinga theory of warrant as adapted to weak form claims. When that good reason attains to warrant, we have at least weak sense knowledge. If we have self evidence or other utterly certain warrant, we have strong form knowledge. In both cases, we have objective knowledge. And yes, microcosm- holographic- facet effects abound. KF kairosfocus
KM, the reality is that duties and preferences often clash, a key to many a book plot and to many issues in life. Preferences are effectively emotions, and no emotion is better than soundness of underlying perceptions, expectations, goals and judgements. So, preferences are not self-justifying -- and yes we have not reached the warrant level yet if the focus is preferences and the like impulses. Accordingly, discipline, training and cultivation of sound habits as well as virtue are all about regulating preferences. Left to him or her self, a child will seldom prefer vegetables and balanced nutrition, systematic sound schooling and much more. Teen infatuations, attractive but unsound "hot" or "cool" people in the peer circle and peer pressure are notorious issues. For grown ups, the balance of sound upbringing and the path of wisdom, again, pivot on what is right, sound or wise etc, and a great lesson is to learn to prefer -- or simply to choose despite preferences -- the good. KF kairosfocus
WJM has demonstrated and articulated (very nicely) beyond any doubt: Preference rules all. Directly or indirectly. It's literally (really) that the Aquinas lovers can't see that. Hehe. It's sad, but it's, well... amusing. Karen McMannus
StephenB,
What is “preferable” from the standpoint of what is good for a person can be very different from what that person actually prefers, which can be very bad for that same person. You have not acknowledged this difference, so your analysis is flawed.
I have acknowledged the difference between the two, in fact I gave them a name; direct preference, and abstract preferences. Preferences are always about some form of enjoyment - acquiring it, maintaining it, increasing it, or avoid unenjoyable experiences. Probably a better way for me to word this that we have competing enjoyment goals, some direct, and some abstract, some combinations of the two. Our choices are made depending on which enjoyment represents the stronger preference - say, the indulgence of a direct enjoyment, or the promise of an abstract one by abstaining from the direct enjoyment. Or, the threat/potential of something we will eventually find very unenjoyable should we continue committing to the immediate, direct enjoyment. One may prefer the immediate indulgence; one may prefer to abstain for more abstract enjoyments. However, even when one chooses to abstain from the direct enjoyment in observation of probable (or at least possible) abstract consequences (which are ultimately assessed in terms of "enjoyable" and "unenjoyable" potentials,) they are still making a preferential choice. Preferences and enjoyments are not solely about direct experiences, as I've said several times; they also are about abstract ideas like you just mentioned - what is "good" for the person; what is "the right thing to do," what may happen in the future as a result, the desire to lose weight, the desire to not become an alcoholic, they have bills they have to pay at the end of the month, etc. The reason that your claim that not all choices are about preferences (more accurately, a preference for the most enjoyable outcome possible) is shown hollow is because your abstract "objective moral" oughts (what is "good" for us) depends on convincing us (in the abstract) that there are two eventual, final, eternal consequences; an enjoyable one, and an unenjoyable one, and the maximally enjoyable one depends on behaving a certain way. Every spiritual system and every religion (and even worldly advertising) attempts to sell their product (or advised behavior) by claiming it offers a preferable, more enjoyable outcome. William J Murray
SB: You are misusing the language here [by using the term “what is preferable”] WJM
I think not. I’m happy to let the reader decide for themselves. It’s pretty clear IMO that we’re just talking about hierarchies of preferences, direct and abstract, in terms of seeking the most enjoyable (preferred) outcome.
I hope readers do judge for themselves. I didn’t just make the claim that you are misusing the language, I demonstrated how and why this is the case. What is “preferable” from the standpoint of what is good for a person can be very different from what that person actually prefers, which can be very bad for that same person. You have not acknowledged this difference, so your analysis is flawed. When a habitual drinker indulges in his “preferred” activity, he does so in spite of the fact that the likely outcome of his behavior will be alcoholism. It would be “preferable” if the person had not cultivated the habit in the first place or, once it became a reality, to stop drinking and go against his personal preference. Notice that there are two conflicting ways of thinking about “what is preferable,” One is about what the person should want and the other is about what the person does want. Can you grasp the difference? In many cases, it is better to not follow one’s preferences than to build a philosophy of life around them. What is done in the name of enjoyment often ends in misery and a total loss of freedom, such as with those who become hooked on pornography. Yet you take none of these things into account because you think the word “preference,” which you use in two very different contexts, can suffice to explain the essence of “choice,” which of course it cannot. Further, you don’t even recognize the existence of an objective moral standard that would define what is preferable for the person from the standpoint of the good. If there is no such thing as good, then there can be no such thing as a meaningful choice. So your theory about choices, outcomes, and personal preferences is totally without foundation. StephenB
How exactly does my statement that morals are not objective in nature refer to itself? It makes no claim about the existence of objective truths.
Any statement about morals it's a moral statement.
we’re just talking about hierarchies of preferences
A hierarchy imply a moral judgement(a value x is superior to value y in the hierarchy) and a moral judgment imply a moral hierarchy. You use a moral hierarchy KF use a different type of moral hierarchy. If you say that your hierarchy is true compared with KF hierarchy ,guess what are you doing? You have a third "ideal model" of hierarchy and compare your model and KF model . Guess what is that third "ideal model"? :))) Sandy
SB said:
You are misusing the language here ...
I think not. I'm happy to let the reader decide for themselves. It's pretty clear IMO that we're just talking about hierarchies of preferences, direct and abstract, in terms of seeking the most enjoyable (preferred) outcome.
No, of course not. Spiritually speaking (since you introduced the topic), a moral act is one in a series of acts that place one on the pathway to heaven and an immoral act is one in a series of acts that places one on the pathway to hell.
Then all this arguing about whether morality is objective or not is just sophistry, because unless one is going to argue inescapable consequences of some sort, there is no teeth to objective morality anyway. William J Murray
WJM, actually it was you doing some mind reading! KF kairosfocus
WJM “because that God cannot do evil things” To will not does not mean cannot. Vivid vividbleau
WJM:
Of course it is preferable because one prefers to serve the abstract “good” over the immediate pleasure.
The abstract good is also the objective good. Just because something is abstract doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. The laws of mathematics, like the laws of logic and morality are abstract, but they exist.
So, here is how to defeat the claim that morality is a subcategory of preference: give me any moral choice where the “right” thing to do is not, in any direct or abstract way, the preferable thing to do for that person.
You are misusing the language here by formulating the term, “what is preferable,” (that which would be the best for that person) as opposed to what the chooser does, in fact, prefer (that which may not be the best at all). It is *preferable* (also “right” and “good) that one should cultivate the virtues of courage and humility. However, one may prefer to remain unduly timid and overly proud (wrong and bad). What is good, therefore, (that what is preferable from the standpoint of good), takes logical precedence over what someone may actually prefer, which can be very bad.
Are morals ever about anything other than serving a direct, or long-term, social or spiritual preference in terms of outcomes?
Yes. Morals are about what the individual ought to prefer as opposed to what he or she does, in fact, prefer. Quite often, the chooser prefers the wrong thing because a bad habit has been acquired, such as the proclivity to avoid responsibility. For the sake of what is good for the person (and others), the chooser ought to break that habit by taking on responsibility, which would be preferable (good, right).
I mean, would anyone be “moral” if it meant that doing the “right” thing, the moral thing, ended up with an eternally horrible personal outcome, like being condemned to hell?
No, of course not. Spiritually speaking (since you introduced the topic), a moral act is one in a series of acts that place one on the pathway to heaven and an immoral act is one in a series of acts that places one on the pathway to hell. A person performs a (good) moral act insofar as it moves him in the right direction, which is toward the “good.” If there is no such thing as an objective good, then there can be no such thing as a moral choice.
All choices are preferential in nature, whether direct or abstract, whether direct-level or a made by using a preferred system of making choices (such as, preferring to flip a coin to make a decision.)
Choices often display a preferential quality, but they are not essentially preferential in nature, as indicated above. StephenB
I've just heard that possibly 750,000 single/unwed women in the UK were forced into giving up their babies in the 50s, 60s and 70s because they were judged to be unfit to be a parent on their own. I'd be very interested in hearing what warrant or 'ought' can be applied in this case. JVL
WJM, it's a pleasure to read what you write on the subject of morality. Karen McMannus
Morality is nothing but sophistry without consequences. A person can say, "you should always do the morally right thing," but without consequences for doing the morally wrong thing, the statement has zero value. So I'm doing a morally wrong thing; so what? Morality cannot be discussed other than in terms of preferred consequences. If a person does not prefer the consequence of a moral choice now or in the abstract future, even to a final moral, consequential, even eternal dispensation, the morality has no significant value to him or her because it doesn't offer a preferential outcome. It is all ultimately and necessarily rooted in preferences. The only successful argument for any particular "objective" morality must come in the form of universal, inescapable, final consequences. That is the essential, ontological component that has been missing in these discussions because one side is trying to make their case without referring to the religious/spiritual commitments any such argument necessarily requires. William J Murray
KF said,
No, I am not the straw figure you imagine. KF
It might be helpful to stop thinking you can read my mind. I did not say "you do not know your own history of ideas," I said simply that no one can possibly start thinking about these things from a blank slate. I stand by that. To even start thinking about it, some kind of primitive ontology and epistemology must already exist, or else you have no basis or means to even understand what you are thinking about in an comprehensible sense. William J Murray
SB said:
Some choices are preferential; some are not. If I choose vanilla ice cream over chocolate, such a choice would be preferential. If I choose hate over love, or if I choose industry over laziness, those choices would be moral. You are conflating those two categories as if they were one and the same.
I'm not conflating two different categories; I'm revealing that "moral choices" are necessarily a subcategory of preferential choices. As I've said multiple times, preferences can be direct, such as your ice cream example, and abstract, as in your "moral choice" example. Or, one can not do something preferred in the now for a longer-term preference, like deciding not to eat the ice cream now for a more abstract preference, such as losing weight or not wanting to spoil their appetite for dinner.
Ultimately, all moral choices involve pursuing what is good for the chooser (and others) – not necessarily what is pleasurable or preferable.
Of course it is preferable because one prefers to serve the abstract "good" over the immediate pleasure. So, here is how to defeat the claim that morality is a subcategory of preference: give me any moral choice where the "right" thing to do is not, in any direct or abstract way, the preferable thing to do for that person. Are morals ever about anything other than serving a direct, or long-term, social or spiritual preference in terms of outcomes? I mean, would anyone be "moral" if it meant that doing the "right" thing, the moral thing, ended up with an eternally horrible personal outcome, like being condemned to hell? All choices are preferential in nature, whether direct or abstract, whether direct-level or a made bey using a preferred system of making choices (such as, preferring to flip a coin to make a decision.) William J Murray
WJM, you are trying to tell me how my mind moved across say the past 20 - 30 years and you are telling me I don't know my own history of ideas. Not advisable. Remember, at base I am a physicist, so I will naturally look at pivotal points of evidence, case studies that are hinges of thought. I gave you a train of such hinges, above. Did you notice, a yardstick case shapes my ethical-legal thinking? (And, for 40+ years I have thought of other issues lurking in pendulums based on cords and bobs. On this, the Amos image of a plumb line next to a crooked wall has been crucial, with side helpings of parable of the cave, a certain AD 59 shipwreck and its echo of the parable in Republic. Jesus' remark on good and bad eyes interacts.) Would it shock you to learn that our own SB taught me the heavy weight of self-evident truths, and that I moved from the bland assurance that the 17 core logic laws of Boolean Algebra (duly learned in Math and Electronics) which are truth table demonstrable are more or less equivalent; to realising the pivotal nature of LOI and close corollaries through pondering -- you guessed it in one -- a bright red ball on a table? (The original ball, belonging to my wife in her childhood then one bought on a whim and given to her that is not far from where I type this, bought in a shop now under ash. Here, there be paradigmatic cases . . . ) As for Cicero, I ran across him online, then was struck by his remarks, then wrote with a colleague for a regional newspaper, then saw more and more lurking in the turns of phrase; many years since I had a discussion with a subwarden at my uni on rights, where she pointed to the priority of duties, thence the growing impact of a phrase written in a regulation against hazing by some anonymous Uni lawyer 40+ years since, rights, freedoms and responsibilities -- oh, that actually is what the civil peace of justice is, due balance. And so forth. No, I am not the straw figure you imagine. KF kairosfocus
WJM:
Choices are inescapably preferential (including meta-preferentially,) direct and/or abstract.
Some choices are preferential; some are not. If I choose vanilla ice cream over chocolate, such a choice would be preferential. If I choose hate over love, or if I choose industry over laziness, those choices would be moral. You are conflating those two categories as if they were one and the same. Also, you seem to forget that a choice could have the *quality* of being preferential without being fundamentally preferential. Just because I choose something that I happen to prefer doesn’t mean that that preference alone defines the *essence* of that choice. You have not justified the assertions you are making. Ultimately, all moral choices involve pursuing what is good for the chooser (and others) – not necessarily what is pleasurable or preferable. The lazy individual, for example, would prefer not to exert himself in order to pursue a worthy ideal. The fact is that what you prefer may not be good for you. Indeed, that is what the moral life is all about – choosing what is good. If objective morality doesn’t exist, there is no such thing as “good.” If you prefer to take drugs as a form of recreation, you may die prematurely. On the other hand, if you learn to cultivate the virtue of self-control, you may live a long life. How does one know that the virtue of industry, which is productive, is better than the vice of laziness, which is non-productive, or that the virtue of self control, which is empowering, is better than the vice of no control, which is disempowering? Obviously, the answer is that morality is objective and that it is better to live a good life than a bad life, which often includes that act of making moral choices that are not always “preferred.” By disavowing the moral life, you are actually reducing the choosers capacity to know which moral choices are better than others. StephenB
WJM
“Correcting” and/or “admonishing” others here from the perspective of the very ontology and epistemology he has offered up for debate and criticism is, IMO, kind of a weird way to proceed.
Personally, I think that it is more of a conscious patronizing rhetorical gambit than a purely innocent affectation based on years of habit. When people's quirky affectations are repeatedly pointed out to them, most will make attempts to curb them. Admittedly, this is not always 100% effective as habits are hard to break. paige
VB
You certainly are making a claim about what is true.
I don't disagree with that. But I am not making a statement against objective truths. The only claim I am making is that morals are not objective in nature. I am not making claims about the objective truth of factors on which we derive our morals, or on the objective truth of the impact of certain behaviours on society, or millions of other objective truth. KF's arguments that my statement is self referentially incoherent are based on assumptions that include objective morals as a fact. If that is not self referentially incoherent, I don't know what is. paige
BTW, this thought just occurred to me. Somewhat off-topic, but still interesting to consider in context: a God that is inherently, inescapably good - maximally good - cannot be maximally "great" or powerful, because that God cannot do evil things. A maximally powerful (or "great" God) would be capable of doing anything and everything possible, including "evil." William J Murray
Notice, KF, I've already expressed a "warrant" I will submit to and agree with: the warrant of a self-evident (on pain of absurdity) true statement; an existentially necessary and/or unavoidable statement. So, you have that to work with right off the bat. William J Murray
KF said:
WJM, the issue is not my authority but warrant.
"Warrant' only exists as the product of ontology and epistemology. "Warrant" is meaningless outside of that context. Why should I care about what you consider to be "warrant" if I disagree with the ontology and epistemology that produces it? William J Murray
KF said:
WJM, back ways around. It is precisely because I was forced to deal with limitations of warrant and existence of self evident truths that I took my view on these things to shape views on other things.
It cannot be "the other way around," KF. Nobody begins to think about these things tabula rasa. The foundations of ontology even if consciously unrecognized as such have been built for years in the subconscious by various experiential factors we live in as children growing up. Experiences one has can offer the opportunity to think about and question their ontology and epistemology, but how does one even proceed in a situation where both ontology and epistemology are in question? As you have said, and I agree, one must begin with self-evident truths that necessarily, inescapably apply to any and every possible ontology and epistemology. I tried to broach this at #618 with the following: 1. I exist. 2. “Other” exists (or else I could not identify “I”.) 3. The fundamental principles of logic inescapably apply in all possible ontologies (or else none of the above is possible – the "absurdity of the contrary" principle.) 4. I necessarily experience varying states or conditions (or else none of the above is possible such as distinguishing between self and other.) 5. I have free will. 6. I make choices (at least in terms of what I think and how to think about experiences.) 7. Choices are inescapably preferential (including meta-preferentially,) direct and/or abstract. 8. Thus, “oughtness” is existentially unavoidable in terms of preferential choices as the result of the above. 9. “Oughtness” requires comprehensible sequences of experiences of varying conditions and states. 10. To satisfy the above, at least some experiences are comprehensibly contingent on our choices. To defend your ontology and epistemology, KF, you have to start at the top; you don't get to just lecture us from the result of your endeavor to construct a "correct" ontology and epistemology - well, not if you expect anyone to care or to actually be "corrected" from their perspective. Show your work. I offered a sample that might help above. Show me where any of that is wrong. Show me what else you think can be added to that list. Show me the premises you think are valid. State it as simply as possible. Mine can be stated very simply (see above list) and without reference to any literature for "support." William J Murray
WJM, the issue is not my authority but warrant. Further to which, that is the focal issue for this thread. KF kairosfocus
Mohammadnursyamsu said:
It is a very serious error to confuse what is subjective, with what is objective. People are shown to have much trouble with it. And by asserting morality as objective, then police reports would naturally be full of judgements, and it would just be a total dysfunctional mess.
This beautifully represents one of the problems in these discussions. It's one thing to argue the facts and evidence, and argue the logic; it's another thing to bring personal evaluations of the moral character of those making the arguments. Viola said:
But you’re not the babysitter here.
I agree. KF is not our babysitter, our parent, or our teacher. Perhaps this is a habit of behavior from himself having been a parent (I don't know if he is or is not,) or a teacher. All he is doing in these "corrections" and "please reconsider" comments is evaluating our comments and behavior from the perspective of his epistemology and ontology, which are the very things he has offered up for public debate and criticism. "Correcting" and/or "admonishing" others here from the perspective of the very ontology and epistemology he has offered up for debate and criticism is, IMO, kind of a weird way to proceed. However, if I think of what KF is doing as a series of lectures, which may be closer to his actual motivation, then what he is doing here and how he is doing it makes sense. He has assumed a position of teacher; he considers us his students; and so he offer lectures, correct us when we're "wrong" (in terms of his lectures,) and admonishes us for "incorrect" behavior in his class. William J Murray
WJM, back ways around. It is precisely because I was forced to deal with limitations of warrant and existence of self evident truths that I took my view on these things to shape views on other things. And note, even on Math I start with facts and argued that axiomatisation c C19 - 20 is later. Conforming to facts. Decades ago Lewis' point on how we quarrel and Royce's proposition had shaping impact. It is in recent years that, stirred by Cicero, I have seen the centrality of his point. What was vaguely general is now specific, structured. KF kairosfocus
From my perspective, KF is trying to make a case that his belief system is as close as one can move a statement of belief to being considered a statement of truth. He and others before him have established a system of how to accomplish this - but not only this, it is co-existent with the belief that it is a moral duty to do so. However, it is an entirely circular argument. It begins with, is rooted in and follows from the very premise (the ontological foundation of the ensuing epistemology) it is attempting to "prove" as true. I understand that under that ontology and the ensuing epistemology, all other ontologies and epistemologies "fail." This is what occurs when KF and I debate Idealism Reality Theory; he evaluates it using his ontology and epistemology. Of course it "fails" that "test;" it cannot do anything other than fail that evaluation. ALL other ontologies and epistemologies would fail that test. When KF talks about "comparative worldviews," that comparison process is made by KF using the epistemology created to uniquely support his worldview ontology and exclude all others. So, KF saying "other worldviews fail" is a trivial assessment. Of course other worldviews fail that evaluation; his epistemology ensure that they will fail. William J Murray
When the police come to a crimescene, or the scene of a possible crime, they are to record the facts of what occurred. Meaning they must make a 1 to 1 corresponding reconstruction of what occurred. So all what was done to somebody, how it was done, is reconstructed. Those are the objective facts. That would include objective facts about statements made, and utterances made, during what happened. Which also includes the facts of subjective opinions that were expressed. Having all the objective facts, then it is for a court of law to judge in the spirit of the law, the spirit in which decisions were made, of both the perpetrator and the victim. Judge if someone was in pain, or if deceased, judge the loss in the soul. etc. etc. etc. We don't want the policie report to contain judgements by the police, or witnesses, saying, well what he did was in fact evil, objectively speaking. We don't want any judgements in the police report, unless ofcourse, the spoken judgements were part of the event that occurred. It is a very serious error to confuse what is subjective, with what is objective. People are shown to have much trouble with it. And by asserting morality as objective, then police reports would naturally be full of judgements, and it would just be a total dysfunctional mess. Only the creationist conceptual scheme can distinguish between matters of opinion, and matters of fact. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
The thing is, I have zero "duty" sensation, psychological or emotional or conscience-wise, about anything as far as I can tell. I just don't experience it. I accept that SB and KF and others do, but I really have no idea what they are talking about. Maybe I'm the blind guy and they're trying to get me to recognize and admit that colors exist. What I actually experience is a kind of automated algorithmic-pattern search for potential outcomes in various situations as the likely results of my choices. I "calculate" in a general sense at first and, if no red flags pop up that deserve a deeper dive, I do the default - tell the truth as best I can, because I've found over my life that telling the truth as a default (1) simplifies my life and what I have to remember, so makes it more enjoyable, and (2) on occasion where lying is called for, it's much more likely to be accepted because of the established foundation of truth-telling. As far as a system of "warrant" or "justified true belief," as I said before, how that is arranged and what it means depends on your ontological assumptions, conscious or subconscious. For me, knowledge = anything I personally experience, and belief = conditional models about my experience that I don't invest in as "true," but rather adopt, use, test, and dispose of according to their apparent utility in guiding my experiences as I desire. Because of the way I hold my beliefs, whether or not they are true is irrelevant. All that matters is their apparent practical usefulness. I can have one model for one set of experiences or situations, and others for other sets, and they don't even have to be logically consistent with each other. They just have to each work, like tools for different jobs. So, the entire argument about how to establish well-warranted true beliefs is irrelevant to me, because "true beliefs," for me, is a self-contradictory concept. If something can be stated to be true, it is not a belief. Beliefs, from my perspective, can never be thought of or represented as "true." I can make true statements about what my experience is, in terms of it being my experience; I cannot make true statements beyond that. IMO, nothing can warrant a "true belief" because the phrase is, IMO, self-contradictory. William J Murray
SB @711: Thanks, I appreciate it. William J Murray
F/N: Truth is of course part of the issue. The obvious note is that per Ari, truth says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not. That is, truth is accurate description of states of affairs. I excerpt, on the modern morass of the heirs of Pilate, who cynically asked, what is truth:
. . . it's doubtful [--> for many moderns and ultra-moderns] there is any such thing as the truth. So it might be better to say that inquiry aims at truths, and better still to say that different inquiries from archeology to zoology aim at different truths from archeological to zoological. Such inquiries have had many successes, but in many cases inquiries are still underway, and success has not yet been achieved. Thus some truths are known, others unknown. But what, if anything, do the different truths, known and unknown, about different topics have in common, to make them all truths? If we knew the answer to this question we'd at least have a better understanding of the nature of inquiry, and perhaps even a better chance of finding what we're looking for when we inquire. But with so many kinds of truths, the project of coming up with a unified conception of what truths are might seem hopeless. Perhaps that is why other inquiries leave it to philosophy . . . . The question on which we focus—”What is it for a thing to be true?”—has a certain priority simply because some sort of answer to it has to be presupposed by any serious attempt to answer almost any of the others . . . [TRUTH, Alexis G. Burgess & John P. Burgess, Princeton U Press]
Truth, in short, connects to logic of being and possible worlds [were they actualised]. Of what is or is not or may be or may never be, we can and do inquire as to why such is or is not the case, seeking a reasonable answer. This is the weak form principle of sufficient reason highlighted in the OP. Of course, when what is is not a tangible material object, or is a state of affairs, some will be tempted to dismiss such as essentially figments. Such should kindly explain to us whether mathematical entities and states of affairs are to be so dismissed. And, methinks, that a state of affairs is just or unjust is or can be of the last moment. The conclusion is, that at least one actual world is, and contains entities and states of affairs. Accurate description of such, constitutes truth. Where, for possible worlds, in-world accuracy as though it were actual constitutes truth. This last is important as it is highly useful in mathematics, decision-making etc. So, we can objectively characterise the target of knowledge, credible or even certain truth. Which, can have a reasonable description. Truth is accurate description of reality. We can extend to partial or potential truth or in-world truth etc but to do so we need the core. Pilate's cynicism -- which in context was conducive to injustice -- was unwarranted. KF kairosfocus
Vivid, yes, but that is part of the breakdown we are seeing. When one cannot recognise that s/he has asserted something about claimed existing states of affairs . . . I have seen people complain against language forcing them to so assert . . . one is making a truth claim. It should be patent that one can properly call certain states of affairs just or unjust, say -- reflecting or failing to reflect due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Where, as certain claimed rights [and worse, privileges or entitlements] are abusive to others, they are morally fallacious by way of being inherently unjust. No one can have a just right to demand that others carry out or uphold one in evil, or are forced to lie to accord with demands under colour of rights, etc. Genuine rights and freedoms are universalisable in the Kantian sense, i.e. they are partly constitutive of the civil peace of justice. Relevance to current trends should be clear. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, yes, Kant did identify a useful test of ethical soundness, which though he did not like to accept it, is closely tied to the Golden Rule. Further, as I noted by excerpt above, what morality is is sufficiently identifiable to be useful though there will always be disputes on ethical questions and essentially any philosophical issue. Not least, the recognition of objective and even self-evident moral TRUTHS, i.e. truths regarding oughtness/duty and about the value of the good,* cuts across powerfully backed worldviews and cultural agendas. Unfortunately, as some of those key truths govern our rationality, playing games here has sobering implications for the cultural/civilisational consequences of en-darken-ed behaviour (which often poses as enlightenment). Let us note, justice is a moral issue. KF *PS: We should recognise, prize and work to the good. So, values are about recognising, respecting and working to the good. PPS: The link to the Golden Rule comes out in the second form, which is equivalent to the first: one should treat the other as an end in her/him self, not as simply a means to one's ends. This brings out the concept of those who are "[ab]users" of other people. kairosfocus
“How exactly does my statement that morals are not objective in nature refer to itself? It makes no claim about the existence of objective truths.” You certainly are making a claim about what is true. Vivid vividbleau
Paige, the matter is as described, both in general and on moral truth (and error). Further to which, truth is accurate description of states of affairs. Note, the highlighted excerpt I now add: "morals are not objective in nature" -- see the "ARE" that claims that a certain state of affairs exists in accord with the meaning of morality, i.e. you made truth claims about duties, rights, the good etc. I further add, that this obtains even if your intent for the term "morals" is to refer to sentiments and notions held by individuals or groups, as the meaning would be that such sentiments are essentially -- i.e. as to core identifying characteristics -- and inescapably subjective and relative, i.e. fail the test of being warranted as credibly true. Of course, that statement is thus . . . following the self-referential logic . . . ALSO a similar sentiment and is self-referential, incoherent and self-defeating. That is, it is undeniable, on pain of reduction to absurdity, that objective moral truths exist and can be intelligibly stated. Which, ATTN Jerry, is a case of warrant regarding knowledge. As advertised. Dismissiveness on your part does not constitute want of warrant on ours. KF PS: I again point to Lewis Vaughn's apt summary as was excerpted above (last time at 594), of the shattering challenges faced by relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. If you disagree, kindly explain why ________ . kairosfocus
William J. Murray
It’s mind-boggling to me that posters here have taken my rather ordinary admission, that on occasion, in certain situations, I lie (but not here, because what I want from this venue would be subverted by my lying,) and turn that into a big deal. I mean, really?
As I said above, you make a fair point. For my part, I feel a duty to truth, and the truth is that the two quotes should not have been juxtaposed. StephenB
WJM:
This is the second time you’ve taken quotes of mine out context to make it appear that I have contradicted myself. Is this now your deliberate tactic?
You have persuaded me that I did take the two quotes out of context. Under the circumstances, I apologize. I should have been more careful. It will not happen again. StephenB
Kant's answer:
The categorical imperative is the central philosophical concept in the deontological moral philosophy of Immanuel Kant. Introduced in Kant's 1785 Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, it may be defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action. According to Kant, sentient beings occupy a special place in creation, and morality can be summed up in an imperative, or ultimate commandment of reason, from which all duties and obligations derive. He defines an imperative as any proposition declaring a certain action (or inaction) to be necessary. Hypothetical imperatives apply to someone who wishes to attain certain ends. For example, "I must drink something to quench my thirst" or "I must study to pass this exam." A categorical imperative, on the other hand, denotes an absolute, unconditional requirement that must be obeyed in all circumstances and is justified as an end in itself. It is best known in its first formulation:
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.
Kant expressed extreme dissatisfaction with the popular moral philosophy of his day, believing that it could never surpass the level of hypothetical imperatives: a utilitarian says that murder is wrong because it does not maximize good for those involved, but this is irrelevant to people who are concerned only with maximizing the positive outcome for themselves. Consequently, Kant argued, hypothetical moral systems cannot persuade moral action or be regarded as bases for moral judgments against others, because the imperatives on which they are based rely too heavily on subjective considerations. He presented a deontological moral system, based on the demands of the categorical imperative, as an alternative.
However, this whole discussion of morals is far afield of the OP which is about truth. jerry
It's mind-boggling to me that posters here have taken my rather ordinary admission, that on occasion, in certain situations, I lie (but not here, because what I want from this venue would be subverted by my lying,) and turn that into a big deal. I mean, really? William J Murray
From 3 months ago on the definition of morals --------------------
Definition of moral – Merriam Webster
a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one’s conscience or ethical judgment e : capable of right and wrong action
This should suffice for a discussion of the world moral. We take it for granted but in 4 of 5 definitions the word “right” and “behavior” are used. So what is “right?” When is something “right?”
------------------------ There was no agreement on what the term meant so my further comment on this. was
No one is using a consistent definition of “morality” so when one uses the term, it is essentially talking past others. The dictionary definition in #173 “relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior” begs the question of what is the meaning of the word “right” or just what is right behavior.
Talking past each other it the eternal pastime here. jerry
StephenB said:
Isn’t it absurd to say “I sometimes lie” and follow that up with the claim “I always tell the truth as best I know?” Your entire argument is based on the proposition that absurdities are not really absurdities.
This is the second time you've taken quotes of mine out context to make it appear that I have contradicted myself. Is this now your deliberate tactic? Also: I mean a logical absurdity. Such as, to deny the statement 'A=A" creates a logical absurdity. To deny "I exist" is to generate a logical absurdity. William J Murray
KF
Where, denial of objective truth to statements of moral character, undermines truth, trustworthiness and far more, leading to self referential incoherence.
As my father would say, “Can’t you smell what you are shovelling?” A statement saying that morals are not objective in nature is limited to just that, the nature of moral values. There is nothing self referentially incoherent about it. Using your own words, the fact that you persist in this claim after my corrective speaks volumes, and not in your favor. paige
Paige, a statement is an assertion by a person, who is responsibly, rationally free, typicaly conscience guided and duty-governed. The statement you made is an assertion as to what is, i.e. claims to be truth, which directly entails many duties. Where, denial of objective truth to statements of moral character, undermines truth, trustworthiness and far more, leading to self referential incoherence. Not least, it implies that the sense of obligation to truth by voice of conscience is delusional, implying grand delusion on a significant facet of our conscious minded life, fatally undermining its own credibility in the collapse of credibility of mind as delusional. Far better, to acknowledge that moral error exists, but moral truth also therefore exists. And more. KF kairosfocus
KF
Paige, logic. There is a particular trickiness when a sentence refers to itself, usually implicitly.
How exactly does my statement that morals are not objective in nature refer to itself? It makes no claim about the existence of objective truths. paige
F/N: The definition of morality is a philosophical question (an aspect of defining ethics, a major branch of philosophy), and as such has no simplistic answers. However, comparative difficulties applies, and we can identify a sufficient framework to guide our thought. SEP:
The Definition of Morality First published Wed Apr 17, 2002; substantive revision Tue Sep 8, 2020 The topic of this entry is not—at least directly—moral theory; rather, it is the definition of morality. Moral theories are large and complex things; definitions are not. The question of the definition of morality is the question of identifying the target of moral theorizing. Identifying this target enables us to see different moral theories as attempting to capture the very same thing. And it enables psychologists, anthropologists, evolutionary biologists, and other more empirically-oriented theorists to design their experiments or formulate their hypotheses without prejudicing matters too much in terms of the specific content a code, judgment, or norm must have in order to count as distinctively moral. There does not seem to be much reason to think that a single definition of morality will be applicable to all moral discussions. One reason for this is that “morality” seems to be used in two distinct broad senses: a descriptive sense and a normative sense. More particularly, the term “morality” can be used either descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational people. Which of these two senses of “morality” a moral philosopher is using plays a crucial, although sometimes unacknowledged, role in the development of an ethical theory. If one uses “morality” in its descriptive sense, and therefore uses it to refer to codes of conduct actually put forward by distinct groups or societies, one will almost certainly deny that there is a universal morality that applies to all human beings. The descriptive use of “morality” is the one used by anthropologists when they report on the morality of the societies that they study. Recently, some comparative and evolutionary psychologists (Haidt 2006; Hauser 2006; De Waal 1996) have taken morality, or a close anticipation of it, to be present among groups of non-human animals: primarily, but not exclusively, other primates. . . .
As a 101, secularism-driven cross check, Wiki:
Morality (from Latin: moralitas, lit.?'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper (right) and those that are improper (wrong).[1] Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2] Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness". Moral philosophy includes meta-ethics, which studies abstract issues such as moral ontology and moral epistemology, and normative ethics, which studies more concrete systems of moral decision-making such as deontological ethics and consequentialism. An example of normative ethical philosophy is the Golden Rule, which states: "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."[3][4] Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. opposition to that which is good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any particular set of moral standards or principles.[5][6][7]
The matter is clear enough for relevant purposes. Where, as the freedom of responsible reason is inevitably governed by first duties, unsound morality in thought and practice darkens, clouds, debases ability to think straight. The psychology of cognitive dissonance is a capital illustration. KF kairosfocus
VL, do you realise the incipient misanthropy in some of what you (and others) have said or directly implied? There is, sadly, a lot of pretty grim history behind such. Trying to verbally skewer me as "condescending" etc for asking you to pull back from such a brink, does not answer; as the problem remains. Was Hitler's genocide or Stalin's democide objectively evil or only a matter of the subjective perception or culturally relative view or emotive sensibilities of others? Was the Nuremberg court right to assert that you don't need a legislature to know murder is inherently criminal, and to point to built in law coeval with our humanity otherwise? Or, was it just the winners hanging, shooting and gaoling the losers then writing victory propaganda called reports of the war crimes trials, and later, histories? Do you realise just who make claims like that? Do you think you have fundamental, un-alienable rights? (Such imply correlative duties, and so too the point that due balance must obtain before one may justly claim a right.) Etc. KF kairosfocus
Paige, logic. There is a particular trickiness when a sentence refers to itself, usually implicitly. This happens with denials of objective truth and knowledge, whether in general or on moral subjects. To imply as objectively the case that such objective truths do not exist or are unknowable, is to contradict oneself. Similarly, to claim it is an objective truth regarding duty or oughtness that there are no such truths, is to make an objective truth claim. In short there are some things that are undeniably true. As it is we can readily exemplify objective truths, e.g. || + ||| --> |||||. Similarly, error exists is undeniably true as is shown in the OP. Similarly, there are self evident first moral truths as has been discussed above, with the cases much discussed showing the point. One who seriously tries to deny the wrongfulness of kidnapping sexually torturing and murdering a child for fun, is instantly nihilistically absurd. First duties of reason are coeval with our humanity, as it is part of the nature of responsible, rational freedom, that such creatures are governed by right choice not blind mechanical impulse or blind chance. The one who tries to deny such freedom, again, refers to him/her self and undermines the credibility of mind to reason. All of these are highly instructive results. KF kairosfocus
can cause deep personal anguish and guilt. They are personal
I don’t hold this definition. It’s definitely subjective and would excuse what most consider behavior that is not conducive to a stable society. Maybe Kant come closes
I ought never to act except in such a way that I could also will that my maxim should become a universal law
As far as
think these are derived from something external to the individual. In his case, God.
No they flow from from the internal nature of humans. He and I and others here believe that this internal nature was created by God. So have many in history preceding Christianity. Thus, the internal nature of human/other species are an insight to the nature of the creator. jerry
Jerry
The problem is that no one has defined what the word morals mean.
I think you are correct. I can’t speak for anyone else but I see morals as behaviors that, when deviated from (or acted on) can cause deep personal anguish and guilt. They are personal. KF and others think these are derived from something external to the individual. In his case, God. I argue that they are the result of teaching, experience, reinforcement, feedback (positive and negative) survival instincts, sexual desires, our need for social interaction, reasoning, logic, our ability to predict consequences of actions, etc. All affected by factors necessary for survival in society. paige
KF writes, when I asked him to drop his frequent "please reconsider", and said he was not the babysitter: "VL, I do happen to be thread owner. But that’s not my point, I am asking you to pull back from the brink of misanthropy, KF" I recognize you as thread owner, KF. I don't think that justifies coming across as condescendingly superior to those who disagree with you. But, to the point: I am not approaching misanthropy. I object on moral grounds to the gruesome case you have presented just as much as you do, and I'm virtually certain the vast majority of human beings do also. I am arguing for a different grounding of morals than you have. That is the issue. Viola Lee
You make a statement that objective morals exist, and that is not self referentially incoherent.
It is not self referentially incoherent because it could be true. Most people believe it to be true. The truth of it depends on the definition of morals. It says nothing about the claim itself.
I make a statement that morals exist only subjectively and I am being self referentially incoherent.
The problem is that no one has defined what the word morals mean. Everyone assumes their own accepted meaning. Ordinarily this would not be an issue but on this thread there are some who claim different definitions for this word. If one provided a questionnaire to the general public using the scale, very moral, moral, neither moral or immoral. Immoral, very immoral a hundred statements such as “It is moral/immoral to torture babies for one’s pleasure” nearly everyone would say it’s very immoral. My guess the statement “helping someone who has just fell and injured themselves” would be rated very moral. My guess the statement “stopping to fill up the gas tank on my car would be rated neither moral or immoral. The scale could be expanded at either end to include the ratings, extremely moral and extremely immoral. Any guess where torturing babies would get rated? jerry
KF
Paige, when you object to objectivity by making a claimed objective statement you are in self referential incoherence.
How convenient. You make a statement that objective morals exist, and that is not self referentially incoherent. I make a statement that morals exist only subjectively and I am being self referentially incoherent. I don’t claim to fully understand philosophy but if it includes this nonsense, then it is of little value for determining reality. Making a statement that A doesn’t exist in an objective sense is not a statement against objective existence. paige
Paige, when you object to objectivity by making a claimed objective statement you are in self referential incoherence. KF kairosfocus
Folks, we are seeing emergence of newspeak, doublespeak, doublethink and kin in action -- I guess we need to add wrongthink and thoughtcrime etc i/l/o the agit prop tactics, lawfare and jacobin red guardism already let loose, all pivoting on crooked yardstick thinking. Do we really want to go down the 1984-animal farm path? KF kairosfocus
Sandy
“objective wrongs don’t exist” is an objective statement or just a relative /subjective vanilla/cocoa statement? To me looks like you consider it as an objective statement “more”/”closer to” true fact than others statements. You see the problem?
I don’t see a problem. We make objective statements about things not existing all of the time. Unicorns. Leprechauns, etc. Maybe if you explained what the problem with VL’s statement is, we would understand your point. paige
However, in my framework, objective wrongs don’t exist
"objective wrongs don’t exist" is an objective statement or just a relative /subjective vanilla/cocoa statement? To me looks like you consider it as an objective statement "more"/"closer to" true fact than others statements. You see the problem? Sandy
KF
Paige, the whole crime, and the unfortunately real world case I put on the table involves sexual assault, torture and murder. All, to fulfill a perverted desire for pleasure. The reason why it is the whole crime is that from wicked start to demonic end it was a violation of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties
The entirety can’t be objectively wrong if one or more of the acts that make up the entirety is not also objectively wrong. So, the question at 682 stands:
Is it objectively wrong to remove a child from its parents against their will except by court order? Is it objectively wrong to cause physical damage to a healthy baby? Is it objectively wrong to do something that causes the death of a baby?
paige
Viola Lee
A meta-problem here is that you have sort of co-opted the word “wrong” to mean only what it means in your metaphysical framework: “objectively” wrong. However, in my framework, objective wrongs don’t exist, so wrong means something different to me.
Your personal framework is irrelevant. The issue is about the common meaning of the term “wrong,” which you are misusing. Wrong, by definition, is situated in the objective mode. It means, among other things, “not correct or true,” “incorrect,” “unjust” “in a bad or abnormal condition” [something was wrong with the pump] “Improper,” “out of order,” “unwarranted,” “faulty,” “defective, and so on. Thus, when you say something “is wrong (morally),” you are saying that it is objectively wrong, even if you don't mean to say that. If you don’t think any such thing as objective morality exists, then you should say that certain acts merely “seem immoral to you and to you only.” By saying that, you are making it clear that you believe it is morally permissible for anyone other than you to torture babies for fun. That is your position and you should own up to it. SB: It is a contradiction to argue on behalf of subjective morality (it is wrong for me) while using the language of objective morality (It is wrong, period.)”
I’m not using the language of objective morality, but you are hearing the language of objective morality. You are forcing your understanding of what I’m saying into your framework.
No. you are forcing your framework on a word that was not meant to be used in that context.
I am not trying to integrate two incompatible claims.
Yes, you are. Your claim that morality is subjective is incompatible with your contrary claim that torturing babies for fun “is wrong.”
Deceptive implies a deliberate attempt to conceal or mislead. I am not being deceptive, and I object to your thinking this is the case.
As long as you misuse the language the way you do, I can draw only one conclusion: I am using the term “wrong” to mean what everyone else (except you) means by it in order to clarify the issue; you are using your own private definition of that same word in order to obfuscate the issue. StephenB
But you’re not the babysitter here.
Yes he is. When you deal with babies you are called babysitter. Sandy
VL, I do happen to be thread owner. But that's not my point, I am asking you to pull back from the brink of misanthropy, KF kairosfocus
Paige, the whole crime, and the unfortunately real world case I put on the table involves sexual assault, torture and murder. All, to fulfill a perverted desire for pleasure. The reason why it is the whole crime is that from wicked start to demonic end it was a violation of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. KF kairosfocus
KF writes, "VL, you are talking about the wrongness of kidnapping, sexual assault, torture and murder. Please, reconsider. KF" Please drop the reconsider" stuff, KF. I strongly believe that all the things you mention are deeply wrong. If you're interested in discussing the philosophy of what that means, then that's fine. But you're not the babysitter here. Viola Lee
Google defines the verb "choose" as: pick out (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives. It's not a logically functional definition. It is really a conflation of the advise to think about what is best before you choose, and the logic of making a choice. In this mangled up definition of choice by google, the goodness and badness are inherent in the options chosen. They are not in the person making the decision. This mangled up definition of choice, is the root cause of materialism, because once you have thrown out the subjective spirit from the concept of choice, you have really thrown out everything spiritual, and all that is left is material. And that is how good and evil wrongly become to be understood as being objective. mohammadnursyamsu
"gain what I want to gain here" WJM, And what is it that you want to gain? The Troll of The Year Award? Andrew asauber
KF claims that it is objectively wrong to kidnap, torture and kill a baby. But what part of that is objectively wrong? Is it the kidnapping? Is it the torture? Is it the killing? But let’s break it down further. Is it objectively wrong to remove a child from its parents against their will except by court order? Is it objectively wrong to cause physical damage to a healthy baby? Is it objectively wrong to do something that causes the death of a baby? paige
@StephenB:
Isn’t it absurd to say “I sometimes lie” and follow that up with the claim “I always tell the truth as best I know?” Your entire argument is based on the proposition that absurdities are not really absurdities.
No it's not, because WJM said: "I said I always tell the truth (...) in this forum" AndyClue
Jerry writes, “People are revealing who they really are by their comments.” Well, I agree with that!
And
That is why I say Kf is able to expose the true nature of many people. They end up denouncing themselves.
They cannot help it. It’s very difficult to lie. It requires holding inconsistent facts in your head. It eventually unravels. The real issue as always is why are they lying or espousing inconsistent positions. Why do they feel the need? jerry
WJM:
Here’s a challenge for you, KF: Give me one moral statement that cannot be denied without resulting in absurdity.
What would be the point? Because of your absurd world view, you would deny the absurdity. It is absurd to deny the self-evidently immoral nature of torturing babies for fun, but you don't hesitate to take that position. It is absurd to deny that the duty component is built into the ought to component. If I ought not to torture babies, it follows as night follows day, that I am morally obliged (duty bound) to refrain from doing it. It is not as if you are disturbed by illogical contradictions. Try this one, for example: WJM — “What have I done by admitting that sometimes I lie and that I don’t have a duty to truth? What does my doing that gain me?” WJM: — “Well, for one, I said I always tell the truth as best I know and am able in this forum because it is necessary to gain what I want to gain here. Isn't it absurd to say "I sometimes lie" and follow that up with the claim “I always tell the truth as best I know?" Your entire argument is based on the proposition that absurdities are not really absurdities. StephenB
VL, you are talking about the wrongness of kidnapping, sexual assault, torture and murder. Please, reconsider. KF kairosfocus
WJM, please, reconsider. KF kairosfocus
Let’s argue what “is” means. It’s amazing we have ever built a bridge. jerry
re 661, to Stephen: A meta-problem here is that you have sort of co-opted the word "wrong" to mean only what it means in your metaphysical framework: "objectively" wrong. However, in my framework, objective wrongs don't exist, so wrong means something different to me. You want me to qualify every use of wrong by adding "to me" in order for my pronouncements to fit into your framework, but I'm not obligated to do that. I know what you mean when you say "wrong"–you mean wrong in respect to some objective, external standard–and I know that I mean something different–wrong as a moral choice as to how I am going to judge the world. Example: you write, "It is a contradiction to argue on behalf of subjective morality (it is wrong for me) while using the language of objective morality (It is wrong)" I'm not using the language of objective morality, but you are hearing the language of objective morality. You are forcing your understanding of what I'm saying into your framework. I'm not against your disagreeing with me. I am against your acting as if your use of the language takes precedence over mine. You also write, "Insofar as you try to integrate those two incompatible claims, you are being deceptive, and this deception leaks into and informs everything else that you write." Deceptive implies a deliberate attempt to conceal or mislead. I am not being deceptive, and I object to your thinking this is the case. I am not trying to integrate two incompatible claims. I am trying to clarify that there are two incompatible claims, yours and mine, and that I have just as much right to use the language of morality from the context of my view as you do to use it from your view. Likewise, if we want to have a constructive discussion, when we interpret what each other are saying, we need to take the framework they are speaking from into account. To think that I am being deceptive because I don't cede exclusive rights to you about what "wrong" means is, well, wrong! Viola Lee
KF said:
... the case of murder in view is a horrific wrong, ...
That reaction depends entirely on your ontological perspective. William J Murray
WJM, I find your comment seriously unacceptable, for cause. I suggest you re-think what you just said and what it suggests.
What does it suggest? William J Murray
MNY, a defective, benumbed or crushed conscience is not an excuse, it is a huge red warning flag of catastrophic moral breakdown that opens the door to nihilism. Whether or not you FEEL guilty or FEEL outraged, the case of murder in view is a horrific wrong, a crime in and of itself immediately understood by responsible people. KF kairosfocus
WJM, I find your comment seriously unacceptable, for cause. I suggest you re-think what you just said and what it suggests. Please. KF kairosfocus
Oh so the childkiller had a "defective" conscience. So he is not actually to blame for choosing what he did, it was just some wire in his brain that got loose? When you use the language of objectivity, you aren't using the language of choice, you are using the language of things being forced. Facts are forced by evidence, opinions are chosen in freedom. So then objectively wrong, it refers to a material thing being wrong. And material does not choose anything whatsoever. So then the childkiller is making innocent choices, unfortunately though, the wires in his brain are wrong. The subjective spirit of the childkiller is not evil, the wires in the brain are evil. Basically you are saying "evil" belongs in category number 2 of the creationist conceptual scheme. As you have also repeatedly said "error exists". 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Or another way, you argue the chosen act of childkilling is evil, and not the spirit which commits the act mohammadnursyamsu
Here's a challenge for you, KF: Give me one moral statement that cannot be denied without resulting in absurdity. William J Murray
KF said:
WJM, the kidnap-sexual assault and murder of a young child, with a father I knew, is NOT a rhetorical ploy of playing on emotions.
That's exactly what it is. Otherwise, we'd be discussing topic in a less emotionally inflammable way. William J Murray
WJM, the kidnap-sexual assault and murder of a young child, with a father I knew, is NOT a rhetorical ploy of playing on emotions. It goes to the heart of law, justice, duty, morality and self evidence. The attempt to evade the force of self evidence speaks and not in your favour. It is clear, further that while emotions and conscience in themselves are not proofs, they are witnesses. Revulsion, outrage [20 years later the father still felt the blow], guilt, or worse emotional numbness that no longer feels guilt, are all pointing to something. You will notice, I adjusted Cicero's voice of conscience and the English legal phrase, shocks the conscience, emphasising sound, as in properly functioning conscience. Our conscience sparked emotions, a major aspect of conscious mindedness, do not exist behind a firewall, they are part of our whole sense of self and interior lives. We feel the impact of perceptions, expectations, match between action, behaviour and sense of duty. In short, we have here a motivation and window into moral reflection in life, and moral cognition. Hence for example a dressed up reflection of guilt, cognitive dissonance. Conscience, in short, if sound, can point to the facts, principles, duties etc at work, and someone with a defective or damaged conscience is a damaged person. We are right back at the pivotal importance of inescapable authority of self evident first duties. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Plantinga in W & PF, on proper function:
. . . [continuing to discuss various contributions] Chisholm's agent meets Chisholm's conditions for warrant; his beliefs lack warrant, however, because they result from cognitive dysfunction due to a damaging brain lesion, or the machinations of an Alpha Centaurian scientist, or perhaps the mis- chievous schemes of a Cartesian evil demon. Something similar must be said for each of the others. In each case the unfortunate in question meets the condi- tions laid down for warrant by the account in question; in each case her beliefs fail to have warrant because of cognitive malfunction. Hence each of these' accounts misfires, at least in part by virtue of its failure to take appropriate account of the notion of proper function. I therefore suggest initially that a necessary condition of a belief's having warrant for me is that my cognitive equipment, my belief-forming and belief- maintaining apparatus or powers, be free of such malfunction. A belief has warrant for you only if your cognitive apparatus is functioning properly, work- ing the way it ought to work, in producing and sustaining it. (Of course this isn't nearly sufficient, and I shall try to supply some of what is necessary to achieve sufficiency.) The notion of proper function is one member of a connected group of interdefinable notions; some of the other members of the group are dysfunc- tion, design, function (simpliciter), normality (in the normative nonstatistical sense), damage, and purpose. There is initial reason to doubt, I think, that this circle of concepts can be broken into from the outside—that is, reason to doubt that any of them can be defined without reference to the others. Here we have a situation like that with modality: possibility, contingency, necessity, entailment, and their colleagues form a circle of properties or concepts that can be defined or explained in terms of each other but cannot be defined in terms of properties outside the circle. (Of course that is nothing against these modal concepts.) The same goes here, I think; but I shall consider (in chapter 11) attempts to define or explain these terms by way of terms outside the circle. You may nonetheless think there is a serious problem with this notion right from the start. Isn't the idea of proper function an extremely unlikely idea to appeal to in explaining the notion of warrant? Isn't it every bit as puzzling, every bit as much in need of explanation and clarification, as the notion of warrant itself? Perhaps so; but even if so, at least we can reduce our total puzzlement by explaining the one in terms of the other; and we can see more clearly the source and location of some of our perplexities about warrant. Further, the idea of proper function is one we all have; we all grasp it in at least a preliminary rough-and-ready way; we all constantly employ it. You go to the doctor; he tells you that your thyroid isn't functioning quite as it ought (its thyroxin output is low); he prescribes a synthetic thyroxin. If you develop cataracts, the lenses of your eyes become less transparent; they can't function properly and you can't see well. A loss in elasticity of the heart muscle can lead to left ventricular malfunction. If a bird's wing is broken, it typically won't function properly; the bird won't be able to fly until the wing is healed, and then only if it heals in such a way as not to inhibit proper function. Alcohol and drugs can interfere with the proper function of various cognitive capacities, so that you can't drive properly, can't do simple addition problems, display poor social judgment, get into a fist fight, and wind up in jail. And it isn't just in rough-and-ready everyday commonsense contexts that the notion of proper function is important; it is deeply embedded in science.
This sets up already issues of degree of warrant, including compensation for error, cross checks and more. However, it is clear that we can see that warrant naturally comes in degrees, supporting the broadening of the idea of knowledge to include weaker forms that are subject to defeat. Credible truth, not absolute truth. Objective warrant but not utterly certain warrant. Such are of course among other things the very stuff of scientific knowledge claims. Enter, stage left, in deep shadows, that shifty character, the pessimistic induction (especially as applied to theories). KF kairosfocus
The torturing babies argument is rhetorical, an appeal to emotion, and an appeal to consequences. As I said in #206, it cannot be established as "objective" in the same way an oak tree can be established as objectively existing, nor can it be established as "objective" in the same way we recognize the objective nature of self-evident truths: the absurdity of the contrary. This is why SB and others resort to rhetoric, appeals to emotion and consequences. William J Murray
SB said:
It depends on which day of the week you ask him. @206, he says this:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this was you making a mistake. You pulled that quote, which is a characterization I was making of "objective morality" from KF's perspective according to his views, in a larger post where I, at length, demonstrated why this as a problematic perspective. The larger context:
So, what is KF (and others here) actually claiming? The claim is that whether or not we recognize it as such, we all have something of a sensory capacity called “conscience” that, like sight, is subject to error but that we all use it to navigate real moral qualities we perceive through it, and that it is by rational examination we can discern true statements from false in the moral landscape we are perceiving. Even a person who is, theoretically, a born sociopath would just be comparable to someone born blind. Just because a sociopath cannot perceive the moral landscape wouldn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Thus, we can justify KF’s “normally functioning people” objection by comparing a sociopath to a blind mind, either born without a conscience, or later become, for whatever reason, “blind.” Let’s say that everyone with functioning sight would immediately recognize a full-grown oak tree as a tree. The word “tree” is a symbolic representation of something everyone with sight can immediately recognize as what that word represents. Conscience would be the ability to recognize the difference between two categories of things; right and wrong, which would be words that represent two distinct kinds of things in our moral landscape. Just because some or even most things are not universally, immediately clear whether they are right or wrong, morally speaking, doesn’t mean they do not have that quality. [your snippit begins:]It is clear that some things are as morally identifiable as a full-grown oak tree is visually identifiable, such as in the instance of “torturing babies for personal pleasure.” Clearly, unmistakable, objectively wrong if (1) you have a functioning conscience, and (2) you understand the meaning of the symbolic words employed and how they apply to things you apprehend through the sensory capacity of “conscience.”[your snippit ends] The problem with this model is that, under the worldview (dualism) of those that are promoting it, the commodities that identify the tree as a tree are external to the observers, and exist independently of those who are experiencing the sight of the tree. That is what “objective” means under the dualistic perspective; the mutually experiential qualities of any real, objective thing exist in the external thing itself, not in the subjective experience of the observer. Under dualism, the observer is subjectively experiencing an external “is.”
No, SB, I was not saying I believed in "objective morality." William J Murray
VL, yes the situation is painful but SB is right, again. He is making the same essential point as Vaughn Lewis in the textbook I cited above at 199 and 594. Further to which, relativism, subjectivism and emotivism are addressed. Diversity of views (that are incompatible) in a context where we are error prone simply means that there are errors, requiring right reason on duty. There has been diversity of views on any number of subjects, say on economics, Chemistry [and its cousin, alchemy], astronomy, history, etc. That does not mean there isn't such a thing as an intelligible better fiscal or monetary policy, or that chemicals and stars etc do not act in observable, intelligible ways, or that there wasn't an actual past of what happened that can often be reconstructed with reasonable reliability, etc. It just means, errors are possible, errors that may sometimes be backed by powerful and influential interests. That is why a case study on justice is instructive and it is why Cicero's observably inescapably authoritative self evident first duties are important. Note, he is a Stoic who framed the issue in defining law i/l/o received thought c 50 BC. Likewise, it means that you open the door to others holding that kidnapping, sexually assaulting and murdering young children for pleasure etc is right for them. And yet I am fairly sure that you think it abhorrent that in the past people were enslaved, and that it is right to impose under colour of law an attempted redefinition of marriage away from its natural, historic sense of committed lifelong union of two people, one each of the two sexes, forming the core of a family unit. And more. KF kairosfocus
That last remark reminds me of the Electric Monk story from Douglas Adams that I posted recently. Almost everyone who ever lived believed in objective morality, say Stephen, and yet it’s all different and changes all the time, which is pretty good evidence that people are wrong about the certainty of their belief, no matter how much they believe their beliefs right now are objective.. typing on iPad, so that’s it. Viola Lee
Viola Lee:
My moral standards state what is wrong for me. I am the only person for whom I act, and so I am the only person to whom they apply.
That is why you should say what you mean. Torturing babies seems wrong to you, but you don’t believe that this same standard applies to anyone else, which means that you think it is morally permissible for everyone but yourself, In other words, you do *not* think it is wrong to torture babies for fun because “wrong” in that context means objectively wrong. So you were not representing your views accurately when you said that “it is wrong.” It is a contradiction to argue on behalf of subjective morality (it is wrong for me) while using the language of objective morality (It is wrong). You can’t have it both ways. Insofar as you try to integrate those two incompatible claims, you are being deceptive, and this deception leaks into and informs everything else that you write.
“One objection to your view is that there is a vast spectrum of moral views that do not have the consensus that your sample case does.
You are speculating. There is no way to know that.
.. So, while your gruesome example may seem to support the idea of objective morals because it is so widespread, that same argument applied to morality in general around the world strongly indicates that morality is subjectively determined by individual people, and doesn’t objectively exist.””
Fads come and go. The long view of history indicates that almost everyone who ever lived accepted the objective nature of morality. StephenB
At 657 Stephen quotes me as saying,"Yes, it is wrong (torturing babies for fun). I’ve explained that I choose that moral standard. I take a number of things into consideration, including broader, chosen principles concerning empathy for others, but each and every moral standard is an act of choice." Stephen replied, "When you say, “it is wrong,” to torture babies for fun, do you mean that it is wrong *for you* or do you mean that it is wrong *for everyone.* Again, when you say “it is wrong.” do you mean that you *know* that it is wrong or do you merely think or suspect that it wrong, or are you just guessing?" Both of these question come from the perspective that there are objective standards, so they are questions that really don't apply to me, but I'll elaborate: Question #1. My moral standards state what is wrong for me. I am the only person for whom I act, and so I am the only person to whom they apply. I can very much desire that some of them were held by everyone, and in some cases I can be an advocate for a moral position and try to influence others to take the same position. I can also support, in numerous ways, those moral positions of mine that are commonly held by my culture and enforced legally, although I also can, if I choose object to certain moral standards no mater what my community consensus or the law says. I am a moral agent, and one of my chosen moral standards is to take responsibility for being so. But to ask me if I think one of my standards is wrong for everyone is to assume that some objective, external standard exists to make that judgment, and I don't believe such object, external standards exist. To repeat, there are some things that I very strongly believe should be held as wrong by everyone, but only they can decide if they in fact believe that. So your question is not meaningful from my point of view. Question #2: You ask,"do you mean that you *know* that it is wrong or do you merely think or suspect that it wrong, or are you just guessing?" You are again asking a question that assumes that objective standards exist, but none of your choices apply to me (assuming by "know" you mean in reference to something external.) I consult the full range of experiences I have, both external about the world and internal about my own experiences, and then I make a choice that best suits my understanding. Choice is the key word. And when I wrote, "common human experience does not establish ontological objectivity" you repied "It is the intrinsic morality of the act that determines its objective nature." Yes I know that is your philosophical perspective: it appears to be the way you are interpreting the nearly universal judgment concerning your gruesome example. I am making a counterpoint that the fact that human nature is such that most people agree about this situation is an empirical facts about a large collective group of people, but that doesn't elevate the judgment to something ontologically separate from all hte individuals who make that judgment. When I wrote, "One objection to your view is that there is a vast spectrum of moral views that do not have the consensus that your sample case does," you replied, "Irrelevant. One example of an objective moral truth is all that is needed to prove the principle of objective morality. In any case, I could list a thousand equally compelling examples." No. First, as I just explained, one moral standard held by virtually everyone does not prove that standard is ontologically objective. I doubt you could list a thousand equally compelling ones of any practical consequence. But what you haven't done is addressed is that fact that there are many very important issues upon which people don't agree, of which same-sex marriage is one, that are counter-evidence to your argument that widespread acceptance somehow establishes ontological objectivity. And I'll note that you haven't addressed my counterpoint: as I wrote above: "One objection to your view is that there is a vast spectrum of moral views that do not have the consensus that your sample case does. .. So, while your gruesome example may seem to support the idea of objective morals because it is so widespread, that same argument applied to morality in general around the world strongly indicates that morality is subjectively determined by individual people, and doesn't objectively exist."" Viola Lee
VL, you repeatedly appeal to duties to truth, right reason, etc. For example, your proposed refutation is meant to call forth duty to sound logic and credible truth. If we had no responsiveness, no duty, that your claims were somehow reasonable or true would be of no significance. The consequences are horrific. And yes, SB is right to raise what he further highlights. KF kairosfocus
For a judge in court to be objective, it means he judges in the spirit of the law, and not by his own personal spirit. And so the meaning of objective in this sense, is to defer judgement. So the babykilling whatever, can be said to be objectively wrong, if a deferred judgement says it is wrong. So one must defer to a lower level decisionmaking process, which judges the killing wrong, and that one has no freedom at a higher level of decisionmaking processes, to judge it. Neither the freedom to judge it right, nor the freedom to judge it wrong. As similar to how I advise people I know to honor their parents. Because in my opinion, you have no freedom not to, you have only freedom in how to honor your parents. That's just the way how the human heart works. So it is objectively morally right to honor your parents. Or stubbing your toe is objectively painful, eventhough pain is inherently subjective. You cannot change the decisionmaking processes from which it is expressed that it is painful, therefore it is objectively painful. Although probably some kind of well trained mystic could take his own pain away. And so we have the nonsense of injecting the word objective into all kinds of inherently subjective issues, where it really doesn't belong. The real reason to bring in the word objective is ofcourse to shaft people's emotional life. Throw out everything what is inherently subjective, such as emotions, personal character, and God. And then when they become bereft of any emotions, because of having destroyed subjectivity, then they parasite on the emotions of others, like by torturing babies for fun. mohammadnursyamsu
Viola Lee:
Yes, it is wrong (torturing babies for fun). I’ve explained that I choose that moral standard. I take a number of things into consideration, including broader, chosen principles concerning empathy for others, but each and every moral standard is an act of choice.
You are not really answering the question. When you say, “it is wrong,” to torture babies for fun, do you mean that it is wrong *for you* or do you mean that it is wrong *for everyone.* Again, when you say “it is wrong.” do you mean that you *know* that it is wrong or do you merely think or suspect that it wrong, or are you just guessing? If you don’t know that it is wrong, then what gives you the confidence to say it is wrong (which would be objective) rather than to say it seems wrong to you (which would be subjective). Since you have stated that you think morality is subjective, why didn’t you merely say that torturing babies for fun “seems wrong to you?
But, and this is the point, that common human experience does not establish ontological objectivity.
. Common human experience has nothing to do with it. It is the intrinsic morality of the act that determines its objective nature. That is what the word “objective” means in the context of objective morality.
One objection to your view is that there is a vast spectrum of moral views that do not have the consensus that your sample case does.
Irrelevant. One example of an objective moral truth is all that is needed to prove the principle of objective morality. In any case, I could list a thousand equally compelling examples. The reason you said torturing babies for fun *is wrong* is because, instinctively, you *know* that it is wrong, objectively wrong. Otherwise, you would have said that it seems wrong to you. You have already claimed that morality is subjective, but now you are using the language of objective morality. You are trying to have it both ways. You are arguing against yourself. StephenB
Knowing that a certain behavior will lead to an existential result (such as survival of myself and my family) causes one to recognize it as a duty.
And so with any other innate need besides survival. jerry
Yes, I used reason and logic to explain what I think is the truth, as do almost human beings. No, I did not "appeal" to any "duty". Again, repeatedly, you can't recognize that common human experience does not produce ontological necessity. Viola Lee
No to moral truths
Most definitely yes. Morality is what promotes basic human needs which are innate. jerry
VL, to make your argument just now you appealed to duties to truth, right reason and warrant, to gain rhetorical traction. The point is, first duties of reason govern reason, govern by showing how we should use our rational, responsible freedom. Without recognising that, you have no basis for arguing. KF kairosfocus
KF writes, "VL, the existence of self-evident first truths is undeniable without absurdity" Yes to such things as II + III = IIIII. No to moral truths. This you have not established, and many reasons your arguments fail have been pointed out to you. Viola Lee
It is quite clear that there are built in needs for humans. Showing one or a few humans who don’t seem to fit these basic needs is an irrelevant objection. That humans overwhelming have these innate needs is indisputable. Survival is the most basic need and all humans exhibit it. Improving one’s life is also built in. This set of needs has been studied for over a couple thousand years. Some in the 20th century have formalized these needs such as Maslow with his hierarchy of needs The needs are not cultural, they are universal. How the needs are fulfilled may vary dramatically across cultures but not the needs themselves. But even with this diversity of fulfilling needs there is a commonality across cultures on what is permitted or not permitted. For example, to use two examples from this thread, murder and torturing babies is never permitted within one’s group. (Now I anticipate the objections that killing was a common practice but not within the group.) There are others universal behaviors besides these two. Now given that, there can be vast differences between cultures on how best to fulfill these needs. For example, how best to survive will differ significantly depending on geography. Part of survival is health and avoiding death or injury. So food/nutrition will vary between cultures but they all have the same objective, survival. A Pacific Islander will eat different foods and learn boating and swimming skills while someone in the mountains will have a very different diet and learn different survival skills from someone who lives amongst dangerous animals. But it would be seriously wrong not to teach survival based on one’s environment. What is important to people will vary widely across cultures but the need to feel important does not. Now what is moral or immoral is what promotes or prevents survival and development in each culture. So it’s possible in some ways to say some morality is cultural but in other ways morality is the same throughout all cultures. But morality is promoting these innate needs and immorality is what frustrates them. For a Christian there is another important need. That is salvation. So morality will be what leads to this and immorality is what prevents it. Generally what is moral for one’s culture will be moral for salvation. For thousands of years and even today there are some cultures that promote a zero sum perspectives and focus inward. As opposed to realizing that cooperation between cultures actually achieves the individual goals of the culture more easily. So they will destroy others without realizing it is actually self defeating. And we get war. jerry
VL, the existence of self-evident first truths is undeniable without absurdity. Above we have pointed to many such. As for first truths regarding duty, your objection itself relies on such for whatever rhetorical traction it hopes to achieve. Yopur argument defeats itself. But of course, the consequences of such first truths are manifestly unpalatable so that will only be acknowledged in the last resort. Your attempt to drag in a controversial and readily challenged rights claim to try to use it to serve as yardstick speaks for itself, not in your favour. The contrast to what SB raised or the unfortunately real world case I noted, could not be clearer. KF kairosfocus
KF writes, " Such includes, establishing that there are things such as knowable moral truths of duty, including first truths." But this hasn't been done. And and if you think I have a "hobby horse", what about your "sexual torture" hobby horse" or Stephen's "torturing babies for fun" hobby horse? My "hobby horse" is a place where moral differences affect the lives of many people everyday, while your very seldom, and Stephen's hardly ever, thank goodness. As I said at 641, which your replies didn't address, "While your gruesome example (either yours or Stephen's) may seem to support the idea of objective morals because it is so widespread, that same argument applied to morality in general around the world strongly indicates that morality is subjectively determined by individual people, and doesn’t objectively exist." And for what's it worth, it doesn't take much of a technical background to have used a plumb bob. I've used them in house construction and building fences, for instance. have one in my tools in my basement, and used it just last year repairing a deck. Viola Lee
Paige, we both know that fallacious standards are exposed by self-evident truths. As to limitations of plumb lines, perhaps you are unaware of my technical background. The point is made with reference to construction work, where speed squares to this day carry a provision for hanhing a plumb line, following a tradition tracing to ancient Egypt. You full well know the main point and would be well advised to heed it. KF kairosfocus
VL, in haste to ride favoured hobby horses, it is always tempting to skip over the first principles issue. This is in part why Aquinas speaks of little errors at the beginning. This thread is on a first principle issue, knowledge and particularly, warrant that ties credibly true belief to knowledge. Such includes, establishing that there are things such as knowable moral truths of duty, including first truths. Those shape the frame of natural law and guide us to sound conclusions. Bounded, error prone rationality cannot simply leap to conclusions, however they may be fashionable among various circles. KF kairosfocus
VL
And prohibitions against same-sex marriage deprives people of an inestimable personal and social good, based on aspects of their nature that is inborn, and in the eyes of believers, God-given.
I would agree with this.
What a crooked yardstick to deny them fairness, justice, and empathy in this regard.
I am always amused by KF’s comparison of a crooked yardstick to a plumb line. Maybe he doesn’t know that even a plumb line displays a measurable bias. paige
Then you use several meanings for the word objective, whatever. The primary meaning of objective should obviously be, as that it can be identified with a fact forced by the evidence of it. As used in science. The problem is that you want to throw out subjectivity altogether, same as atheists do. Everyone wants to throw out subjectivity. I guess the reason that many intellectuals become popular is precisely because they find ways to mangle subjectivity. They get to be popular, precisely because of this error. And then you cite these popular intellectuals as being an authority on the issues. Certainly Dawkins became popular precisely because he used the otherwise subjective word "selfish", in an objectified scientific sense. People just relish in that, that now, because of Dawkins, they can make pronouncements on who is selfish, objectively. But the proper meaning of selfish, is like, too much concerned with self interest, where what is too much, and what is just enough, is a matter of chosen opinion. You are just another one who is fact obsessed, and are playing in cahoots with the evolutionists. A traitor. Only the creationist conceptual scheme provides full accommodation for both subjectivity, and objectivity, each in their own right. A whole category for subjectivity. None of that meanspirited atheist stuff, where basically you have to beg like Oliver Twist, please sir, please can I have an emotion? You see, materialism must be totally destroyed, because it provides no room for subjectivity whatsoever. It is war. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
And prohibitions against same-sex marriage deprives people of an inestimable personal and social good, based on aspects of their nature that is inborn, and in the eyes of believers, God-given. What a crooked yardstick to deny them fairness, justice, and empathy in this regard. Viola Lee
VL, kindly note my comment to Sev. The issue of objectivity, indeed, is not about inter-subjective agreement, which can pool error but the matter of warrant, here by drawing out a self-evident truth. One, regarding duty, thus a moral SET. Thus we have demonstration by yardstick example. This allows us to address rights, duties, justice and much broader law and linked duties. For instance, in the more specific case I gave [which, regrettably happened to an actual child], kidnapping is theft of freedom by force, binding is an aggravating circumstance. Sexual torture is theft of innocence and the right to one's body. Murder is theft of life itself. Flight, robs society of an increment of the civil peace of justice. We can draw much more out by use of a fortiori logic, leading to a core corpus of law dealing with criminal acts against the person. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Plantinga in the preface to Warrant and Proper Function, on analysing or near-analysing the concept of warrant as what moves from true belief to knowledge:
I aim at something in the neighborhood of an analysis of warrant: an account or exploration of our concept of warrant, a concept nearly all of us have and regularly employ. (As we all know, desperate difficulties beset any attempt to say precisely what analysis is.) Thus at the least I should be looking for necessary and sufficient conditions. But I very much doubt that there is any short and elegant list of conditions at once severally necessary and jointly sufficient for warrant. This is a way in which philosophy differs from mathematics; and epistemology differs more from mathematics, along these lines, than, for example, philosophy of logic or the metaphysics of modality. Our concept of warrant is too complex to yield to analysis by way of a couple of austerely elegant clauses. The structure of this concept, I believe, involves a central picture, a group of central paradigms—clear and unambiguous cases of knowledge—surrounded by a penumbral belt of analogically related concepts, concepts related by different analogies and standing in different degrees of closeness to the aboriginal paradigms. Between the central core area and this penumbral belt there is a more shadowy area of borderline possible cases, cases where it isn't really clear whether what we have is a case of warrant in the central sense, or a case of one of the analogically extended concepts, or neither of the above; and beyond the penumbral belt we have another area of bor- derline cases. Hence perhaps a good way to characterize our system of analogically re- lated concepts of warrant is to give first, the conditions necessary and sufficient for the central paradigmatic core. (Even here, as we shall see, there is no stylishly sparse set of necessary and sufficient conditions: various qualifica- tions, additions and subtractions are necessary.) Second, what is needed is an exploration of some of the analogical extensions, with an explanation of the analogical bases of the extensions. This way of proceeding is less elegant and pleasing and more messy than the analysis we learned at our mother's knee: it is also more realistic.
So, again, we see how he sought to pull together a theory of warrant. KF kairosfocus
Stephen asks, as I figured he would, "What does your creative, subjective morality tell you about the act of torturing babies for fun? Is it wrong? If you feel the need to define your terms before answering the question, then by all means, do so." Yes, it is wrong. I've explained that I choose that moral standard. I take a number of things into consideration, including broader, chosen principles concerning empathy for others, but each and every moral standard is an act of choice. Your gruesome sample case is one that almost all human beings would agree on. But, and this is the point, that common human experience does not establish ontological objectivity. One objection to your view is that there is a vast spectrum of moral views that do not have the consensus that your sample case does. For instance, as we have discussed because it is such a good counter-example, there is no such consensus about same-sex marriage and homosexual behavior in general. And another example is the strong prohibitions against various behaviors about women in places like Saudia Arabia, or lesser differences even here in the US. So, while your gruesome example may seem to support the idea of objective morals because it is so widespread, that same argument applied to morality in general around the world strongly indicates that morality is subjectively determined by individual people, and doesn't objectively exist. Viola Lee
VL, Plantinga takes up a fairly extensive discussion in a trilogy. There is a fairly brief, excerpted summary in the OP.That duly noted, it is manifest that the design plan of rationality and of linked faculties of reasoning, perceiving, remembering etc [think of how we use the 7 or so item sensory register and resort to chunking etc as key cognitive strategies] is sound thinking towards truth, on pain of self-referentially undermining credibility of reasoning. Freud, Marx and Skinner, arguably manage to get into just such self-defeat. We can explore perceptual systems and discuss two tier controllers in a bio-cybernetic loop and proprioception etc, with interactions per the Smith Model (as has been raised at UD many times). A good further issue is that under certain lighting, our perception of colour is notoriously distorted, there are vision defects [I know of a case of triple corrective surgery at one successful go for two types of blinding disease and restoration of 20:20 vision], and more. For instance red fades fast with depth and red fish are effectively black in their proper environment; think, red snappers here; delish, BTW. However, things like camouflage or dead ground can affect the micro situation, leading to errors of perception. And more, the matter is subject to responsible discussion, where Plantinga is an eminent philosopher who takes up some of that. KF kairosfocus
Viola Lee:
Human beings, being creative (in the sense of being able to create) and free-willed, choose the morals they wish to live by: they bring them into existence–they actualize them– by choosing to believe them and act upon them. Thus they are subjective–they are created and maintained by oneself as the subject–rather than objective in the sense of existing as an object separate from oneself. However, as WJM has clearly pointed out, appeals to common human experience is not the same as establishing ontological objectivity.
.. It depends on which day of the week you ask him. @206, he says this:
It is clear that some things are as morally identifiable as a full-grown oak tree is visually identifiable, such as in the instance of “torturing babies for personal pleasure.” *Clearly, unmistakable, objectively wrong* if (1) you have a functioning conscience, and (2) you understand the meaning of the symbolic words employed and how they apply to things you apprehend through the sensory capacity of “conscience.”
So do you agree with WJM on this occasion and acknowledge that it is objectively wrong to torture babies for fun? Or do you agree with Paige, who says that it is not objectively wrong to torture babies for fun? At the same time, Paige says that it is "wrong" for me to characterize her position since, in her estimation, in constitutes a "gotcha." In keeping with that point, she says that "many things are wrong." But then she also says that nothing is objectively wrong. How does that work? Perhaps, as you indicate above, she is just being "creative"with her"subjective" morality." Is that what is going on with you as well? What does your creative, subjective morality tell you about the act of torturing babies for fun? Is it wrong? If you feel the need to define your terms before answering the question, then by all means, do so. StephenB
Paige, if the times tables, addition facts, historical facts, trig relationships, first two-dozen or so antiderivatives etc were objective, why do we spend so much time and effort instilling them into our kids? Speaking of which, why don't we proceed to the next five thousand or so standard integrals and related results but instead point to reference texts such as Gradshteyn and Ryzhik? (See the non-sequitur?) KF kairosfocus
If morals were truly objective, why would we place so much time and effort in instilling them in our children?
Because babies/children/young adults do not realize the effects of certain behaviors. They have to be taught. They know they do not want to be hurt or die. A newborn actually realizes this. They know they want to prosper and be important. They are not taught this. It’s part of the species. There is all sorts of theories on built in needs/wants. How to achieve them is quite different. So what they do not know is how to achieve these built in needs/goals. That which leads to these goals are morally correct and it’s much easier to instill these behaviors than for them to learn them. Though some times they have to learn on their own. That which frustrates these goals are immoral. What has been found out from studying humans since ancient times is that these needs are built in. They are not learned. How to achieve them is what is learned. jerry
Sev:
I am familiar with the concept of objectivity. My question is, in what sense can morality be considered objective? I am certain, in my own mind, that torturing babies for fun is completely wrong. I cannot conceive of any situation in which it could be justified.
You are so certain as a subject or rational agent precisely because you understand what is said and what it means, on adequate experience and maturity as a person. With that understanding you are led to think with affirmation that it is true and even that any similarly situated responsible subject would concur. Further to which, you implicitly recognise that the denial of the assertion is patently absurd, even in this case monstrous. One who rejects the statement (not merely, poses arguments for rhetorical purpose), is grossly defective and likely dangerous. Indeed the onward debate would be, psychotic, sociopath or psychopath. And given that recognition you realise this assertion regarding duty is necessarily and self-evidently true. Thus, self-evidently, objective. An objective truth regarding duty, here, relative to the right to life. KF kairosfocus
F/N: on why Plantinga turned to "warrant" and from "justification" in the same book:
. . . a problem that is less trivial than it initially seems: what shall we call this quantity? I propose to call it 'warrant'; but those of us brought up in that benighted pre-Gettier era learned at our mother's knee that knowledge is justified true belief; and even in this enlightened post-Gettier age we still think of justification and knowledge as intimately related. So why not call this property 'justification'? Because it would be both misleading and unfair. 'Justification' suggests duty, obligation, requirement; it is redolent of permission and rights; it brings to mind exoneration, not being properly subject to blame—it connotes, in a word (or two) the whole deontological stable. And the problem is that one of the main contending theories or pictures here (one with impressive historical credentials going back at least to Descartes and Locke) explicitly explains the quantity in question at least partly in terms of fulfilling one's epistemic duties, satisfying one's epistemic obligations, conforming to one's epistemic requirements. To use the term 'justification', then, as a name for that quantity would be to give this theory and its relatives a confusing and unwarranted (if merely verbal) initial edge over their rivals. So 'justification' is not the right choice. In earlier work5 I borrowed Roderick Chisholm's more neutral term "positive epistemic status" as my official name for the quantity in question. That locution, however, is too long; so I shall use the term 'warrant' in its place. Of course, 'warrant' has deontological associations of its own (even if they are not quite so insistent); perhaps (as Ernest Sosa suggested in conversation) 'epistemic aptness' is a better term. On balance, however, I prefer 'warrant'—but we must be careful not to be misled by its residual deontological insinuations. ______ [F/N5:] For example, "Positive Epistemic Status and Proper Function," in Philosophical Perspectives, 2, Epistemology, 1988, ed. James Tomberlin (Atascadero, Calif.: Ridgeview, 1988)
Notice his explicit acknowledgement of Gettier's revolutionary impact. KF kairosfocus
VL@630, you have said it better than I could. If morals were truly objective, why would we place so much time and effort in instilling them in our children? And why are our jails full of people with dysfunctional upbringings who did not have these values “beat” into them from an early age? If they were truly objective, why wouldn’t we just all share them, regardless of our teachings? I suspect that some, such as not hurting others, are easier to instill because we all, for whatever reason, have the ability to empathize with others. It also helps that we are beings that can use reason and logic, and can extrapolate consequences from actions. From these we can easily derive the basic morals (don’t steal, don’t cheat, don’t kill, don’t use violence, etc). The ones that are common for the majority of people, and the one’s we often pass laws about. Torturing babies for fun falls in this category. paige
Kairosfocus/592
Objectivity is not a rare or obscure characteristic or concept. And, the familiar presence of the high quality dictionary is a useful sign thereof. Where, it is obviously pivotal to warrant, which is in turn critical to knowledge. Including, moral knowledge as opposed to opinion.
I am familiar with the concept of objectivity. My question is, in what sense can morality be considered objective? I am certain, in my own mind, that torturing babies for fun is completely wrong. I cannot conceive of any situation in which it could be justified. I have a high degree of confidence that most other human beings share this view. I see no reason to think that this pitilessly indifferent Universe cares one way or the other about human children. I am atheist but, even if there is a God, how would His position on torturing babies for fun be any less subjective than yours or mine? Seversky
"Proper function, in proper macro and micro environment and successful design plan towards truth" And how do you determine these? Without more specificity, words like "proper" and "successful design plan" don't tell us anything, well, specific, and therefore are not useful. You've never addressed this question. Viola Lee
F/N: Plantinga, preface to Warrant, the current debate (1993):
. . . one of the most exciting developments in twentieth-century theory of knowledge is the rejection of deontology and the sudden appearance of various forms of externalism. More precisely, this development is less the appearance than the reappearance of externalism in epistemology. Externalism goes a long way back, to Thomas Reid, to Thomas Aquinas—back, in fact, all the way to Aristotle. Indeed, we may venture to say that (apart, perhaps, from Augustine and some of the skeptics of the later Platonic Academy) internalists in epistemology are rarae aves in Western thought prior to Descartes. It is really externalism, in one form or another, that has been the dominant tradition; internalism is a recent interloper. We may therefore see present-day externalists as calling us back to our first epistemological love, after a brief and ill-starred fling with the seductive siren of internalism [--> only 300 years!]. In this book and its sequels, I hope to heed that call. My topic, therefore, is the theory of knowledge. In the theory of knowledge, naturally enough, we try to come to some understanding of knowledge. But where and how shall we start? First, there is nearly universal agreement that knowledge requires truth; a person knows that all men are mortal only if it is true that all men are mortal. Of course we sometimes use the term 'knows' as if it were within ironic quotes, as when we say that a good Marxist knows that the idea of objective truth is no more than a piece of bourgeois sentimentality. Sociologists of knowledge sometimes seem to take this ironic use of the term as its basic use, so that 'S knows P', as they use it, means little more than that S believes P, or is strongly convinced of P, or perhaps is committed to P, or is such that the scientists of his culture circle announce P. But let us set such aberrant notions aside, for the moment, and agree that knowledge requires truth. Second, it is widely (though not universally* ) agreed that knowledge, whatever precisely it is, also involves belief; a person knows that all men are mortal only if, among other things, she believes that all men are mortal (where here the term 'believes' is to be taken in the classical sense of 'thinking with assent'; it does not imply lack of certainty or mere belief). There is wide agreement that knowledge requires true belief; but as far back as Plato's Theaetetus, there is also recognition that it requires more. I may believe that I will win a Nobel Prize next year; by some mad chance my belief may be true; it hardly follows that I know the truth in question. What more is required? What is this elusive further quality or quantity which, or enough of which, stands between knowledge and mere true belief? What is it that, added to true belief, yields knowledge; what is it that epistemizes true belief? (We cannot properly assume that it is a simple property or quantity; perhaps it is more like a vector resultant of other properties or quantities.) This quality or quantity, however, whatever exactly it may turn out to be, is the subject of this book and the sequels, Warrant and Proper Function and Warranted Christian Belief. Contemporary epistemologists seldom focus attention on the nature of this element (although they often ask under what conditions a given belief has it); and when they do, they display deplorable diversity. Some claim that what turns true belief into knowledge is a matter of epistemic dutifulness, others that it goes by coherence, and still others that it is conferred by reliability. I shall argue that none of these claims is correct, and (in Warrant and Proper Function) suggest a more satisfactory alternative . . .
All of this is of course post-Gettier. Notice, his preview of what is to come:
The dominant form of contemporary externalism is reliabilism; I consider (chapter 9) the reliabilist views of William Alston, Fred Dretske, and Alvin Goldman. Reliabilism has its charms; but it omits a crucial component of warrant (or so, at any rate, I shall argue): that of proper function or absence of dysfunction. The idea of our cognitive faculties' functioning properly in the production and sustenance of belief is absolutely crucial to our conception of warrant; this idea is intimately connected with the idea of a design plan, a sort of blueprint specifying how properly functioning organs, powers, and faculties work. The last chapter offers a preview of coming attractions: a brief and preliminary account of that elusive notion warrant, an account that seems at once subtler, more accurate, and more satisfying than any of the theories in the field.
Of course, above, I note that we commonly use knowledge in a defeat-able sense, as in science, history, the courtroom and so forth. Accordingly I think there are weak and strong forms of knowledge, the difference between addressing credibly true [so, reliable] beliefs and definitively true beliefs. The concept of a spectrum of strength for knowledge claims tied to degree of warrant allows us to address such. In short, weak form knowledge is not merely implicit ironic or scare quotes. (If we insist on only the strong form the number of things subject to knowledge falls drastically, including loss of science, history etc.) Proper function, in proper macro and micro environment and successful design plan towards truth then enter to help fill the bill on what warrant is. KF kairosfocus
Human beings, being creative (in the sense of being able to create) and free-willed, choose the morals they wish to live by: they bring them into existence–they actualize them– by choosing to believe them and act upon them. Thus they are subjective–they are created and maintained by oneself as the subject–rather than objective in the sense of existing as an object separate from oneself. One pertinent defintion from Merriam-Webster online: subjective - "relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states."" Because we all have some common core characteristics there are some moral judgments that are virtually universal. However, as WJM has clearly pointed out, appeals to common human experience is not the same as establishing ontological objectivity. Viola Lee
WJM:
Setting aside ontologies that are the result of uncritical examination of comparatives, one can only choose or adopt an ontology by preference, including meta-preferences, such as how one prefers to evaluate their ontological options
Evades -- as opposed to invalidates -- the point of comparative difficulties analysis. Not to mention that preferences and duties of reason commonly clash. Duty ought to be done despite preference. The framework being proposed fails, as was already pointed out. KF kairosfocus
Paige:
I don’t believe that there is anything that is objectively wrong
,
I think many things are wrong,
Isn't that a contradiction? Maybe you should define your terms. How is wrong different from objectively wrong? StephenB
SB: OK. In your judgment, then, it is *not* wrong to torture babies for fun. Is that right? Paige
I think many things are wrong, including intentionally misrepresenting what another person says in an attempt for some silly “gotcha” moment, but that doesn’t mean that they are objectively wrong.
Are you referring to me? I was simply confirming your statement that it is not objectively wrong to torture babies for fun. Is that or is that not your position? StephenB
I think many things are wrong, including intentionally misrepresenting what another person says in an attempt for some silly “gotcha” moment, but that doesn’t mean that they are objectively wrong. I don’t believe that there is anything that is objectively wrong, just things that the vast majority of people believe are wrong. Common agreement does not make something objective.
I did not see that it’s wrong for some people to torture babies in your reply. So I assume it’s ok with you for some to do so. You have said you have grandchildren. Do your children know you are ok with someone torturing your grandchildren? Aside: how do some qualify as able to do sociopathic behaviors while others are excluded? Or is it ok for everyone at different points in time? jerry
When KF claims we are “exhibiting a manifest duty to truth and right reason” by the way we discuss and argue these matters, that clearly cannot be the case[insert here duty to truth and right reason of WJM].
Yes, people implicitly appeal to using logic and reasoning skills: I do that at all the time. That is not the same as establishing that that we have an ontological duty to do so.
Super Funny. Sandy
Preferrential choices can be deconstructed to a sophisticated way of making spontaneous choices, involving choosing subjective opinions. The reverse is not true. So choices are essentially spontaneous. And that the defenders of free will would object to the notion of choosing opinions, is another of many tired ironies in the philosophy around free will. If you accept free will, you must obviously support chosen personal opinions. mohammadnursyamsu
SB
OK. In your judgment, then, it is *not* wrong to torture babies for fun. Is that right?
I think many things are wrong, including intentionally misrepresenting what another person says in an attempt for some silly “gotcha” moment, but that doesn’t mean that they are objectively wrong. I don’t believe that there is anything that is objectively wrong, just things that the vast majority of people believe are wrong. Common agreement does not make something objective. paige
Jerry
If Kf recommends positive society enhancing behavior, they end up affirming incredibly stupid things, often sociopathic actions to denounce Kf’s recommendations but in fact denounce themselves.
Can you provide an example where he has recommended a society enhancing behavior where someone has responded with an alternative sociopathic behavior? I don’t recall any such instance, but I may have missed it. paige
Paige:
Objective means: ” (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.” By this definition then I would have to say that it is not objectively wrong. [to torture babies for fun]
OK. In your judgment, then, it is *not* wrong to torture babies for fun. Is that correct? StephenB
Somebody just said it’s all right for some people to torture babies.
That is why I say Kf is able to expose the true nature of many people. They end up denouncing themselves.
jerry
WJM@613 makes a good point. For example a very religious person who recovers from a serious illness that his doctor said would kill him might attribute this to God’s intervention. A person who believes in levitation may see someone having a seizure being held down by other people as evidence of levitation. Of course, these conclusions may actually be correct but you can’t ignore the fact that the conclusions might be drawn more from previously held beliefs than from the evidence supporting the conclusion. paige
One might approach ontology in this manner: are there existentially necessary, inescapable commodities in any and every ontological framework held by a sentient being, regardless of preference? Yes, there are. 1. I exist. 2. "Other" exists (or else I could not identify "I". 3. The fundamental principles of logic inescapably apply in all possible ontologies (or else none of the above is possible - the absurdity of the contrary principle. 4. I necessarily experience varying states or conditions (or else none of the above is possible such as distinguishing between self and other.) 5. I have free will. 6. I make choices (at least in terms of what I think and how to think about experiences.) 7. Choices are inescapably preferential (including meta-preferentially,) direct and/or abstract. 8. Thus, "oughtness" is existentially unavoidable in terms of preferential choices as the result of the above. 9. "Oughtness" requires comprehensible sequences of experiences of varying conditions and states. 10. To satisfy the above, at least some experiences are comprehensibly contingent on our choices IF anyone thinks of something I missed, let me know. I don't think any of the above can be denied without it resulting in an absurdity. Now, let's look at some other features of KF's ontology: 1. Morality/moral duties that are distinct from general, or "mere" preference 2. That we are contingent beings living in a specifically created, single, contingent, objectively existing common world. 3. That a maximally great and good God created us and the universes and the system we live in and cannot escape. Are those commodities inescapable aspects of any and all possible ontologies? As I've argued elsewhere, no. Not even remotely so, at least not by any argument presented here. Because the contraries do not represent absurdities, if nothing else. So, KF et al must argue that these commodities are actual because they cannot be shown to be unavoidable. And this is where that argument fails: he can only make those arguments by assuming those ontological commodities are actual. Those additional assumed ontological commodities inform every aspect of his argument, from how the logic is applied and in what context, to what evidence is about and what it implies and how it is interpreted; what true statements are about and what they imply. It's an entirely circular argument. IMO, KF doesn't see this because he has mistaken his particular ontology for inescapable, absolute reality. William J Murray
SB
Is it wrong (objectively) to torture babies for fun? Objective in this sense means that the standard applies to everyone.
Objective doesn’t mean that it applies to everyone. Objective means: ” (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.” By this definition then I would have to say that it is not objectively wrong. paige
That is not the same as establishing that that we have an ontological duty to do so.
If the behaviors or actions are essential for continuous existence or being they are some kind of duty. Give it any adjective to the duties you wish that makes sense. Ontological duty seems to make sense. Life sustaining duties makes sense. Life flourishing duties makes sense. And then we look at Cicero’s duties and amazingly they lead to continued existence and increased flourishing. But some people deny this which means they object to human existence and human flourishing. Or they will just make any dumb statement if it contradicts Kf. That is why I say Kf is able to expose the true nature of many people. They end up denouncing themselves. jerry
Your analysis of the problem is wrong. The current downfall of civilzation, is obviously because of throwing out subjectivity. Look at atheists, they throw subjectivity out. Look at leftists, they throw out the whole concept of personal opinion with political correctness. It is weak that you refer to a dictionary for definitions. Because for this issue definitions is all we have to argue about. If you just refer to a dictionary, it means you are not personally critically evaluating definitions, which means you aren't making an argument. Ofcourse you cannot just make up definitions willy nilly either. The focus must be on explaining the logic used in ordinary common discourse, with statements like, I find the painting beautiful, there is a camel out back. So then you must define terms, according to the logic used in common discourse. And then when you have an accurate reflection of that logic, then you can consider improvements on it. But in my view the basic logic used in common discourse is already perfect, and one can only improve on it in terms of sophistication. I think your idea about subjectivity is wrong. Subjective things are real, they are just subjective, meaning that they can only be identified with a chosen opinion. Evil in regards to the chlidmurderer, is real. The childmurderer makes his choices, and evil is what makes his choices turn out the way they do, in my judgement of it. I feel what makes his choices turn out the way they do, and then I express my emotions by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, choosing an opinion on it. That is the basic procedure for forming a subjective opinion, although typically a lot of sophistication is built upon the basic procedure. Subjective things are real, and the subjective things are in charge of the universe. The subjective things create the universe, and the subjective things decide which way the universe ends up. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
KF writes, "VL, what part of, even your objection or citation of objections is implicitly appealing to the first duties it would dismiss is so hard to understand and to recognise per simple inspection? "2. Appeals to “common human experience” Yes, people implicitly appeal to using logic and reasoning skills: I do that at all the time. That is not the same as establishing that that we have an ontological duty to do so. That is a clear distinction that you don't get. Viola Lee
Setting aside ontologies that are the result of uncritical examination of comparatives, one can only choose or adopt an ontology by preference, including meta-preferences, such as how one prefers to evaluate their ontological options. I'd say it's safe to assume a large number of people prefer to choose or populate their ontology via evidence and reason applied to evidence, at least as best they can. So this is where the two different kinds of evidence come in; empirical personal experiences and testimony. We might assume that every one here is doing their best to apply logic to this evidence in pursuit of a comprehensible, working ontological framework. But, here's the problem: that process cannot even begin without ontological framing. At best, we may begin with an assumed, subconscious general ontological framework, and via evidence and reasoning change our ontology. In most cases, we come to the realization that we are using an ontological framework, and then question if that framework is appropriate given the evidence. However, we rarely recognize that what we consider to be evidence in the first place, how we sort it and even how we rationally evaluate it, is from a deep, unrecognized ontological perspective. I think much of the discourse with KF here can be seen as the result of KF mistaking his ontological perspective for absolute reality, which would mean to him that his epistemology is derived from absolute reality, thus inescapable and applicable to everyone and everything they say and do. This would account for his characterization of his efforts here as "corrective" in nature. I don't see that there is any other explanation for the use of that terminology. William J Murray
VL, what part of, even your objection or citation of objections is implicitly appealing to the first duties it would dismiss is so hard to understand and to recognise per simple inspection? First principles are like that, inescapable. So, true, so too self evident. It would be amusing to see the absurdity of the objections if it were not freighted with consequences for a civilisation losing its way. KF kairosfocus
KF writes, "From Plantinga’s work, a key issue is that warrant requires sound faculties in a proper environment [macro and micro] that are credibly successfully aimed at truth per design purpose. Which may be naturally evident." Or which may be fairly meaningless without more specificity: how do you determine "sound faculties", a "proper environment", "credibly successful" at being aimed at truth, and what does "design purpose" mean, if not just designed to try to get to truth? Viola Lee
Jerry, the scholarship as excerpted, shows just the opposite. Gettier highlighted a pivotal problem and Plantinga has played a key role as an eminent scholar in addressing the matter. It is possible to be justified as regards an actually true belief without having knowledge. From Plantinga's work, a key issue is that warrant requires sound faculties in a proper environment [macro and micro] that are credibly successfully aimed at truth per design purpose. Which may be naturally evident. KF kairosfocus
This is repetitive, but these posts stood out to me this morning: WJM's post at 599 is the heart of the matter:
1.KF is failing to understand that while everyone understands and accepts the necessity of the principles of logic, they are not applying those principles within the same ontological framework that KF is. 2. Objective or universal morality is part of KF’s ontological framework. He’s conflating it with logical principles, or at least trying to embed one with the other. 3. The key part of the fundamental argument here is ontological, not epistemological. In KF’s ontology, morality is a fundamental existential feature and has it’s own fundamental principles like logic for properly measuring good and evil in that ontological framework. 4. No such thing exist in the ontology of some others here so there is no epistemological device for “measuring” it objectively.
Ontological frameworks can differ because there is no way to definitively bring common experiences to bear on understanding them. They are subjective philosophical choices (or preferences in WJM's terms), and KF has never directly explained, other than by plain assertion, why morality is a "fundamental existential feature and has it’s own fundamental principles like logic for properly measuring good and evil". Unstated, but stated elsewhere, most recently at 593, is that KF's ontology has at its core a belief in a "Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality." For KF, therefore, morality is an essential part of our nature: the ought/is bridge is coeval with our humanity. That is a faith belief. For those of us who do not accept it, KF's further conclusions about morality do not follow. When KF tries to argue for a logical foundation for his ontology, his arguments have various flaws: WJM at 598:
1. Appeals to consequences 2. Appeals to “common human experience” 3. “All swans are white” argument with counterfactuals in evidence 4. Conflation of duties with existential unavoidables 5. Asserting things as “self-evidently true” that do not fit the “absurdity of the contrary” criteria 6. Appealing to emotions 7. Circular argument 8. Draws an ought from an is, and/or simply asserts the co-existence of an ought with an is 9. Assumes the ontological grounds for his epistemology
Viola Lee
Now, how would one even begin to argue that one's ontology is not correct, in order to make the case their epistemology is thus incorrect? Well, the lynchpin in KF's particular case is morality as a self-evident, existential ontological commodity. While "oughtness" is an existentially necessary component of any decision in terms of preference, "preferences" are not "morality." IOW, you cannot avoid making preferential choices; oughtness always has a preferential nature, even when we are talking about morality, because moral choices always serve an abstract preference. In making a case for morality as a self-evident, inescapable category of "oughtness," then it must be on par with preference as an unavoidable, innate aspect of at least a category of choices. Let's take a couple of good examples to reveal if this is the case: not torturing babies and survival. Obviously, some people prefer not to survive (suicide) and prefer to torture babies. What is the inescapable essence of any moral argument against these choices? It cannot be that you cannot help but prefer one over the other because that is factually not the case. The moral argument is always made by reference to inescapable, universally non-preferential consequences that are expressions of ontological commodities. IOW, you may prefer to do X, but ultimately, inescapably, doing X will inescapably lead to a final, maximally non-preferential consequence. It is by this asserted ontological, universally non-preferential commodity (or commodities) that doing X is ultimately argued against. Even so, it is still necessarily in the form of a hierarchy of preferences. So, to make the case of morality (making moral choices leads one to the maximally preferential consequences) one must first establish that those ontological, universal sets of consequences exist and cannot be escaped. William J Murray
Given these existential unavoidables and necessities, what then is ontology and epistemology necessarily about? First we have to establish another existential unavoidable: there are only two kinds of evidence available to inform our ontological perspective and to use in advancing our knowledge of (epistemology.) One kind of evidence is empirical, that which is acquired through personal, direct experience. The only other kind of evidence is testimonial. Most people conflate an entire sub-category of testimonial evidence with empirical evidence, and that category is the evidence reported to us via scientific papers and literature that is (purportedly) about the empirical experience and observations of other people (usually scientists of one sort or another.) However, unless the person using that evidence and calling it "empirical" actually conducted those experiments and personally experienced that process and the results, it is in fact testimonial evidence: the testimony of those actually conducting the experiments about their (claimed) personal, empirical experiences. So, all we have by which to inform any ontology or epistemology is (1) our personal, empirical, direct experiences, and (2) the testimony we get from others. That's it; that's all anyone has, period. Now, from all I have presented here, it becomes obvious that ontological perspectives are chosen (if they are chosen, and not just unconsciously assumed by training/programming absent knowledge of alternatives) by preference, direct or abstract, because all choices are necessarily, inescapably preferential in nature. KF often demonstrates this by appeals to consequences, such as world catastrophe, nihilism or solipsism. He prefers not to experience those consequences. KF's ontology includes that of a universally objective world "out there" (including a particular metaphysical moral or spiritual dimension) that causes our experiences. Based on his personal, empirical evidence, and testimonial evidence, he prefers that external, objective world to be, in various ways, be other than it currently is, and so he works (tirelessly!) to do his part to change the world (including other people's minds) into that which he prefers. Nothing wrong with any of that, given his ontology. It's a heroic effort, and I respect the heck out of him for taking on that Herculean task. I really do. But, I and others here do not share that ontology. Our epistemology is not driven or informed by that ontological perspective. Thus, his epistemological lectures cannot be "corrections," because his epistemology is derived from his ontology. He's putting the cart before the horse; you must first get the other person to adopt your ontology before you can attempt to "correct" the epistemology derived from that ontology. So, KF, you logically cannot be "correcting" anyone's epistemology; all you can be doing is reiterating over and over how their epistemology is not congruent with your ontology. Yes, we all agree - our epistemology is not congruent with your ontology. We agree it is not. William J Murray
If you refuse to attend to the corrective record, that speaks for itself. Sadly.
I have read Gettier and Plantinga. Both are incomprehensible and Gettier’s examples are nonsense examples. I think the appropriate quote is.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,
Aside: in Boghossian’s book on epistemology he doesn’t mention either Plantinga or Gettier once. Not even as a reference. Meanwhile, your critics on the basis for what makes truth believe they are having the day because no one can understand your reasoning. They actually see no real objective issue with torturing babies or murdering people. jerry
When KF claims we are "exhibiting a manifest duty to truth and right reason" by the way we discuss and argue these matters, that clearly cannot be the case. As Mohammadnursyamsu said, he cannot point at the duty, weight it or measure it; his identification of a duty can only be inferential. KF is saying that what others say and how they argue implies a duty on their part; but then he goes further to claim the duty is manifestly evident in what they say and how they say it; that we are exhibiting a duty to truth, not just making claims of truth and truth-referrals because it is existentially unavoidable when anyone says or thinks anything, anywhere whatsoever. However: if truth-claims and referrals are existentially unavoidable, no such duty could ever be implied or ascertained from that behavior because of the fact that it is unavoidable. You cannot get an ought from an is, and you cannot even infer an ought from or correlate an ought with an existentially unavoidable is. Logic by itself cannot provide an ought. Logic is a tool used to navigate oughts in a given context. So, what are oughts? Can "oughtness" be said to be existentially unavoidable? Given that free will is a self-evident, necessary commodity of sentient existence, and given that free will is self-evidently, manifestly preferential in nature, and given that "oughtness" is always about direct or abstract preferences, we can easily see that "morality" is a category of generally abstract preferences. Oughtness is in fact existentially unavoidable, but only in terms of preference, which is an innate part of all free will activities, whether having to do with morality or not, whether serving direct or abstract goals. The subcategory of preferences we call "morality" is not universally experienced as demonstrated by the existence of sociopaths. However, even sociopaths cannot avoid acting preferentially. Oughtness is necessarily, inescapably about preference. William J Murray
Jerry, you and others made claims that required correction from the record of scholarship. I provided cases from that record with sufficient context to be clear that it was not out of context misquoting. If you refuse to attend to the corrective record, that speaks for itself. Sadly. KF kairosfocus
WJM, nope. As a sample,warning against willfully going over a cliff is manifestly no fallacy; indeed that is part of why Kant posed his categorical imperative in the form that a morally sound maxim is universalisable, i.e. evil parasites off people not acting like that as the norm. For example a society of lying and fraud collapses; so we can readily see from the chaotic, parasitical nature of evils, an objective test for claimed duty. We can all tell truth, but habitual widespread lying (no, it's not just their favourite targets) is ruinous . . . as the US Media, power classes and officialdom are beginning to learn the hard way. Similarly, the issue with first principles and first duties is that their implicitly recognised authority invariably pervades our reasoning and arguing etc, though we may try to flout or object to them. Epictetus showed how that inescapability speaks to truth and self-evidence. Even your own objection just now is replete with implicit appeals to truth, right reason etc, it thus defeats itself. And more, but the point is already clear. KF kairosfocus
Then he does a great job of hiding it.
No, it’s pretty obvious when they do it. They end up exposing themselves by their resistance to Kf’s ideas. If Kf recommends positive society enhancing behavior, they end up affirming incredibly stupid things, often sociopathic actions to denounce Kf’s recommendations but in fact denounce themselves. jerry
I took time to show from the technical literature that warrant is as advertised,
No one is reading anything you post on this. Especially long technical comments that no one reads because they are incomprehensible. I found the relatively short paragraph thar began with the sentence above also incomprehensible. You do not possess the ability to explain these concepts thus, they are going on deaf ears. I am educated with a masters degree from Stanford, maybe three master’s degrees technically (ABD from another university before starting my own business). I find it ironic that you believe an educated person understands what you post No one does. That doesn’t mean what you post is incorrect, just not understandable. I have been criticizing your writing for over a month now not your ideas but you seem not to understand. Because of your writing style you are being accused of error by your objectors. It’s obvious what they are writing is nonsense but you are not counteracting it in anyway that is understood let alone persuasive. jerry
So, perhaps part of KF's argument is that morality can be experienced, like logic, as having self-evidently true elements - meaning, the contrary results in an absurdity, or that it represents an existential unavoidable. I think this is why he keeps trying to tie "moral duty" in with existentially unavoidable logical behaviors; he's trying to make the case that moral aspects of behavior are existentially unavoidable. But the "torturing children" example of self-evidently true moral statement fails; it's a rhetorical device or an appeal to emotion because if someone says "no, it's not objectively wrong" then what follows is an appeal to the consequences of moral subjectivism. The statement is not self-evidently true because the contrary does not result in absurdity and people can definitely behave as if the statement is not true. I mean, morality in the sense that KF is arguing is not an existential necessity. "Oughts" in the sense of "what one ought do" when making choices in general is an existential unavoidable. But, as I've shown, oughts are always about preference. I don't think anyone here would say "preference" and "morality" represent the same kind of oughts, but IMO "morality" just represents a subset of preferences one feels should be universally binding because it would make the world and other people's behavior more like what they would personally prefer. William J Murray
KF is failing to understand that while everyone understands and accepts the necessity of the principles of logic, they are not applying those principles within the same ontological framework that KF is. Objective or universal morality is part of KF's ontological framework. He's conflating it with logical principles, or at least trying to embed one with the other. The key part of the fundamental argument here is ontological, not epistemological. In KF's ontology, morality is a fundamental existential feature and has it's own fundamental principles like logic for properly measuring good and evil in that ontological framework. No such thing exist in the ontology of some others here so there is no epistemological device for "measuring" it objectively. William J Murray
Several errors in KF's arguments have been pointed out. 1. Appeals to consequences 2. Appeals to "common human experience" 3. "All swans are white" argument with counterfactuals in evidence 4. Conflation of duties with existential unavoidables 5. Asserting things as "self-evidently true" that do not fit the "absurdity of the contrary" criteria 6. Appealing to emotions 7. Circular argument 8. Draws an ought from an is, and/or simply asserts the co-existence of an ought with an is 9. Assumes the ontological grounds for his epistemology William J Murray
VL, it seems the word fight continues. For cause is a phrase . . . I think, more common in British usage . . . that means, "[f]or a legitimate, specific reason; with justification [--> or, better, warrant]." KF kairosfocus
SB, maybe it is time for you to weigh in at full force. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, I took time to show from the technical literature that warrant is as advertised, likewise the impact of Gettier counter examples.Plantinga's impact became manifest. In that context, Plantinga's two track approach of first using warrant as a bill of specifications as to what is required to convert true belief into knowledge [strong sense] and provision of a theory to fill that bill is sound and can be appreciated by a reasonably educated person. Notice, the extensive citation of a summary in the OP, which has not been seriously engaged by objecting commenters for 500+ comments and two weeks today. I remain convinced that a sound understanding of knowledge in both the strong and weak senses, is pivotal to restoring soundness to our civilisation. KF kairosfocus
PS: That textbook by Lewis Vaughn, again, discussing morality and common but fallacious views:
Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts. Some think that tolerance is entailed by cultural relativism. But there is no necessary connection between tolerance and the doctrine. Indeed, the cultural relativist cannot consistently advocate tolerance while maintaining his relativist standpoint. To advocate tolerance is to advocate an objective moral value. But if tolerance is an objective moral value, then cultural relativism must be false, because it says that there are no objective moral values. Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, that social reformers can never be morally right, that moral disagreements between individuals in the same culture amount to arguments over whether they disagree with their culture, that other cultures cannot be legitimately criticized, and that moral progress is impossible. Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude. It seems that any nonmoral facts will do, as long as they affect attitudes. Perhaps the most far-reaching implication of emotivism is that nothing is actually good or bad. There simply are no properties of goodness and badness. There is only the expression of favorable or unfavorable emotions or attitudes toward something.
This, too is not idiosyncratic, obscure, convoluted, yada yada yada. Observe, the earnest tone and implicit expectation that we will recognise and respond to duties of reason. We need to frankly and fairly face this indictment of our education, media, legal system and culture at large. kairosfocus
Paige (attn Jerry):
[Jerry]: They understand all your epistemology, right reason, truth etc. [Paige:] Yes, I think it is fair to say that we understand it. We just don’t think that he has presented a case that is sufficient to convince us.
This reminds me of someone trying to use a crooked yardstick to "correct" -- or rather, to dismiss -- the message of a plumb line. If the core point is admittedly understood but direct, repeated evidence of self-evidence, undeniability of truth and inescapability are perceived to be insufficient warrant, the problem is not failure of warrant or obscurity of expression or convolutedness, but the impact of widespread indoctrination in radical relativism and subjectivism. Notice, even this objection -- just as advertised -- cannot but appeal to first duties of reason in order to try to dismiss by the indirect method of hyperskeptical claim of want of evidence or conclusive argument. When something is so authoritative in our thinking, speaking and arguing or even quarrelling that it pervades inescapably, it is an inescapable first principle. You will recall here Epictetus with the member of his audience who demanded proof of the validity of logic . . . as has been frequently highlighted, for months now:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
The pattern is simple, clear, self-evident. First principles are so pervasive that they are inescapable, which means they can neither be demonstrated . . . the attempt already turns on the same principles . . . nor refuted (the attempt is forced to appeal to what it would overthrow). That's not convoluted nor confusing nor obscure. However, there are common worldview commitments -- go look in the dictionary or even Wikipedia's introduction before trying to suggest that "worldview is an obscure, convoluted notion -- that deny what our lying eyes and ears are showing us. So, we see that there are indeed first principles that are self evident and govern our rationality, here, specifically, first principles of right reason. Such, as noted in the OP and as extensively discussed earlier [the dismissed, mocked red ball illustration is a witness], include distinct identity and its two close corollaries, non contradiction and distinct identity. Similarly, on logic of being, of any entity A, we can ask why it is, seeking a reasonable answer, opening up impossibility vs possibility of being and contingent vs necessary being. Where, causality is connected to contingent being. Such summarises discussions that go back over a decade or more here at UD. Pivotal, as our increasingly irrational age refuses to acknowledge the objectivity and binding nature of such self-evident first principles. Further to these, we can see that there is a manifest duty to recognise, study, respect and rightly use first principles of right reason. This is tied further to the duty to truth, the naturally evident target of right reason. Which also indicates that enemies of truth, right and reality will seek to dismiss or render ineffective, reason. (BTW, notice here the inescapable moral earnestness in major introductory textbooks on logic, especially when they touch on fallacies.) Duty to right reason and its connexion to duty to truth are manifest. We can proceed across the rest of the span of first duties of right reason. Prudence (including warrant) and sound conscience act as compass needles or plumb lines. When we care about something, we find ourselves caring to get it right. Similarly, it is not hard for a normally functional person to recognise others who are as her-/him-self, neighbours of like rational, responsible, significantly free nature who therefore enjoy the same rights and face the same first duties as we do. In this light, immediately we see duty to neighbour [duty being the flip side of the coin of a legitimate right], thus fairness and justice. These are not weird, confusing, convoluted, obscure idiosyncratic notions, they are pervasive, inescapable. Yes, Cicero in De Legibus, helped me to focus, but the rational structure is more than plain enough:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour; so also, to fairness and justice etc. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
I strongly suspect that the problem, in key aspects, is where the manifest presence of first duties points, to an ultimate law giver, not the quite clear evidence of inescapability even on the part of would-be objectors. KF kairosfocus
Sev, do you realise what you just implied? KF PS: Objective, per Collins English Dictionary:
objective (?b?d??kt?v) adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions: are there objective moral values?. 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc 4. (Medicine) med (of disease symptoms) perceptible to persons other than the individual affected . . . 9. an actual phenomenon; reality . . . 11. (General Physics) optics a. the lens or combination of lenses nearest to the object in an optical instrument b. the lens or combination of lenses forming the image in a camera or projector Abbreviation: obj Compare: subjective objectival adj ob?jectively adv ?objec?tivity, ob?jectiveness n Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
Wikipedia, speaking against known ideological interest:
In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject. Scientific objectivity refers to the ability to judge without partiality or external influence. Objectivity in the moral framework calls for moral codes to be assessed based on the well-being of the people in the society that follow it.[1] [--> this is, as expected, loaded] Moral objectivity also calls for moral codes to be compared to one another through a set of universal facts and not through Subjectivity.[1] [--> ditto] . . . . Plato considered geometry a condition of idealism concerned with universal truth.[clarification needed] His contrasting between objectivity and opinion became the basis for philosophies intent on resolving the questions of reality, truth, and existence. He saw opinions as belonging to the shifting sphere of sensibilities, as opposed to a fixed, eternal and knowable incorporeality. Where Plato distinguished between how we know things and their ontological status, subjectivism such as George Berkeley's depends on perception.[2] In Platonic terms, a criticism of subjectivism is that it is difficult to distinguish between knowledge, opinions, and subjective knowledge.[3] Platonic idealism is a form of metaphysical objectivism, holding that the ideas exist independently from the individual. Berkeley's empirical idealism, on the other hand, holds that things only exist as they are perceived. Both approaches boast an attempt at objectivity. Plato's definition of objectivity can be found in his epistemology, which is based on mathematics, and his metaphysics, where knowledge of the ontological status of objects and ideas is resistant to change.[2] In opposition to philosopher René Descartes' method of personal deduction, natural philosopher Isaac Newton applied the relatively objective scientific method to look for evidence before forming a hypothesis.[4] Partially in response to Kant's rationalism, logician Gottlob Frege applied objectivity to his epistemological and metaphysical philosophies. If reality exists independently of consciousness, then it would logically include a plurality of indescribable forms. Objectivity requires a definition of truth formed by propositions with truth value. An attempt of forming an objective construct incorporates ontological commitments to the reality of objects.[5] The importance of perception in evaluating and understanding objective reality is debated in the observer effect of quantum mechanics. Direct or naïve realists rely on perception as key in observing objective reality, while instrumentalists hold that observations are useful in predicting objective reality. The concepts that encompass these ideas are important in the philosophy of science. Philosophies of mind explore whether objectivity relies on perceptual constancy.[6] [--> fair enough, considering]
Objectivity is not a rare or obscure characteristic or concept. And, the familiar presence of the high quality dictionary is a useful sign thereof. Where, it is obviously pivotal to warrant, which is in turn critical to knowledge. Including, moral knowledge as opposed to opinion. kairosfocus
StephenB/590
Is it wrong (objectively) to torture babies for fun?
Wrong? Yes. Objectively? No. Seversky
Paige @581,
Yes, I think it is fair to say that we understand it. We just don’t think that he {Kairosfocus} has presented a case that is sufficient to convince us. Now, as you have noted, the obtuse and convoluted way in which he presents it is not doing him any favor.
Paige, I have a question related to that comment:: Is it wrong (objectively) to torture babies for fun? Objective in this sense means that the standard applies to everyone. StephenB
Jerry
As I said, Kf exposes the shallowness of many of the commenters here.
Then he does a great job of hiding it. paige
What is happening is that Kf is conducting a logic exercise. And only he knows the language.
More appropriate for a conference on epistemology. As I said, Kf exposes the shallowness of many of the commenters here. jerry
Jerry
What is happening is that Kf is conducting a logic exercise. And only he knows the language.
I think I read about him in “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” paige
In truth, what I have seen are people pointing out the errors in his arguments, usually that they are based on false assumptions, and KF refusing to heed these correctives.
Not happening. What is happening is that Kf is conducting a logic exercise. And only he knows the language. Look at the title for this OP. L&FP42. It stands for Logic & First Principles and is the 42nd chapter. It’s is conducted according to obscure terminology that only Kf is aware of here. I haven’t found anything that’s in error but then again i cannot understand all the terms and expressions used so it takes a long while to understand. In most case I don’t try and doubt anyone else is either. So the discussion unfolds on three levels. The top level understood only by Kf. The next level understood by a few and then the third level by most who interpret much things wrong. Interspersed in this are those spouting nonsense to frustrate Kf and anyone who might agree with him. For example, few ever use the term, “crooked yardstick” but have a feeling for what it might mean. If we use a crooked yardstick we can never get an accurate answer. It’s not being used literally but as an expression apparently meant to show mistakes in assessing the truth in something if we do not use proper reasoning. While a plumb line will always provide a straight or accurate measure but it too is just an expression. Kf is full of obscure expressions. And cannot seem to talk in simple plain English. But I don’t find him making too many errors. He is definitely exposing the shallowness of many of the commenters who cannot justify their beliefs. They are not used to it. jerry
What does "for cause" mean in 584? I take it you just mean you are claiming to have valid reasons for your assertion - true? Viola Lee
Seversky et al the breakdown of the media is quite clear, and credibility is unravelling. For cause. KF kairosfocus
Jerry we are seeing struggles to address objectivity of warrant for knowledge and its connexion to credibility and reliability. Those speak to a serious breakdown of civilisation and especially failure of education. KF kairosfocus
Sandy
Learned from where?
Is this a serious question? Did your parents not teach you about being honest, being polite, respecting others? paige
Jerry
What you are dealing with here is people that have beliefs different from yours and bringing any objection they can to discredit your beliefs.
In truth, what I have seen are people pointing out the errors in his arguments, usually that they are based on false assumptions, and KF refusing to heed these correctives.
They cannot support their beliefs but are not going to abandon them.
I have seen several people support their beliefs or, more importantly, admit that they are not certain about many things.
They understand all your epistemology, right reason, truth etc.
Yes, I think it is fair to say that we understand it. We just don’t think that he has presented a case that is sufficient to convince us. Now, as you have noted, the obtuse and convoluted way in which he presents it is not doing him any favor. paige
More evidence that our moral values are learned rather than inherent or objective ..
Learned from where? Sandy
Kairosfocus/575
F/N: The rot at the Beeb https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9606465/After-Savile-McAlpine-Bashir-scandals-JOHN-HUMPRHYS-says-BBC-damaged-repair.html Take this as a yardstick. KF
A yardstick for measuring what, exactly, human fallibility and corruption? Seversky
The rot at the Beeb
The story linked to revolves around a reporter named Martin Bashir. A month or so a go I came across a British mystery/crime series called New Tricks. On the pilot episode in 2003 there was an interview of someone who just got let out of jail after 20 years and this person was claiming he was unjustly imprisoned. The news person interviewing him on this obviously fiction TV show was the real Martin Bashir identified as himself. The story ends with this released criminal going back to prison but I had no idea that the interviewer was a real person who was solicited for the TV show and actually playing himself. Bashir agreed to play the part of interviewing a fictionalized criminal claiming his innocence. Essentially he agreed to play the role of an opportunist news person. jerry
establish that the problem has to be dealt with at a deeper level. More recent discussion has shown that people have problems with epistemology, duty to right reason, even to truth
I completely disagree. What you are dealing with here is people that have beliefs different from yours and bringing any objection they can to discredit your beliefs. They cannot support their beliefs but are not going to abandon them. They understand all your epistemology, right reason, truth etc. When they get boxed in a corner, they leave and look for another possible opening.
it makes little sense to try to extract the toxic mud from the river downstream. And BTW, that is a clear partial motive for objections
I haven’t a clue what this means. jerry
KF said:
More recent discussion has shown that people have problems with epistemology, duty to right reason, even to truth.
Or, they do not subscribe to your ontology, which you seem to be purposefully avoiding. William J Murray
F/N: The rot at the Beeb https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9606465/After-Savile-McAlpine-Bashir-scandals-JOHN-HUMPRHYS-says-BBC-damaged-repair.html Take this as a yardstick. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, enough was discussed in the recent past to establish that the problem has to be dealt with at a deeper level. More recent discussion has shown that people have problems with epistemology, duty to right reason, even to truth. Unless those are settled, it makes little sense to try to extract the toxic mud from the river downstream. And BTW, that is a clear partial motive for objections. KF kairosfocus
Paige, you continue to sidestep the issue that what is warranted has a credibility that is above opinion or agit prop narrative. KF kairosfocus
Here’s my quote
So to justify one‘s beliefs and get at the truth, it becomes a game of searching for contradictory reports and trying to judge what are the relevant facts and where the truth lies. If any one disagrees, prove me wrong.
All one has to do is find a reliable source for factual unbiased information to prove me wrong. No one has so far. I rest my case. Actually there may be reliable sources, they just are embarrassing to those on a certain part of the political spectrum. jerry
Jerry
Interesting list. Some I was not thinking about at all. But in order
I was just stating claims that have been made. Not that they were all attributed to. My point was that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Not on those who disagree with the claim. For example, I can claim that unicorns are real. Is the burden of proof on me to demonstrate, or on you to prove me wrong? Assuming that you don’t believe in unicorns, of course. :) This is the point that VL and I were making. “Prove me wrong” is a ridiculous demand to make of others. paige
If I claim that there is a global conspiracy to stifle use of effective COVID treatments, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there is a global media conspiracy, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there was widespread organized fraud in the 2020 election, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there is a global conspiracy to persecute Christians, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there is an LGBQ conspiracy to groom children to their way of life, the burden of proof is on me to prove it.
Interesting list. Some I was not thinking about at all. But in order
If I claim that there is a global conspiracy to stifle use of effective COVID treatments, the burden of proof is on me to prove it.
Easy to prove.
If I claim that there is a global media conspiracy, the burden of proof is on me to prove it
Easy to prove.
If I claim that there was widespread organized fraud in the 2020 election, the burden of proof is on me to prove it.
No one claimed widespread organized fraud. But there is substantial evidence for possible local fraud that may have swung the election. Whether the vote was accurate or not, Zuckerberg spent almost a half billion dollars organizing local Democratic operatives to influence the election.
If I claim that there is a global conspiracy to persecute Christians, the burden of proof is on me to prove it.
Let's start an OP on this.
If I claim that there is an LGBQ conspiracy to groom children to their way of life, the burden of proof is on me to prove it.
Who is claiming this? But maybe on some other thread. jerry
KF: I agree that "we use culturally conditioned symbols but the symbols do not define the reality into existence", and I don't think Sev was questioning that either. You can relax: we're not endorsing 1984. Viola Lee
VL, 3 + 2 = 5 is a result of the logic of structure and quantity embedded in this or any distinct possible world. Yes, we use culturally conditioned symbols but the symbols do not define the reality into existence. They are aspects of the power of language to accurately refer to reality. Or, are we back to, Mr Smith, what is 2 + 2? 1984 is satire, not a handbook for the future. KF kairosfocus
Paige, do you not see how your argument appeals to the ciceronian first duties to try to gain rhetorical traction? As for the cultural relativism, is slavery or is racism [and I mean the real deal, not agit prop narratives] or is the kidnapping, sexual torture and murder of a young child on the way home from school for someone's sick pleasure a matter of particular cultural influences? Such influences can doubtless warp or crush the conscience and can indeed create a destructive mindset, or on the other hand can promote moral soundness. They do not change the underlying first duties etc. KF kairosfocus
WJM's reply at 559 covers my response at 558. That fact that my beliefs aren't consistent with Stephen's ontology doesn't mean he "got the better of me". My beliefs come from a different ontological and epistemological framework. Also, 3 + 2 = 5 is true because of what those symbols are defined to refer to. That is Sev's point, I think. He is not questioning that ||| + || –> |||||. If I write & + $ = #, you don't know whether that is true or not unless you know the definition of the symbols &, $, and #. Viola Lee
More evidence that our moral values are learned rather than inherent or objective is the fact that the majority of incarcerated people had disfunctional upbringing, in environments where socially acceptable behavior were not taught and reinforced. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278837/prisoners-childhood-family-backgrounds.pdf paige
Sev, As it caught my eye 3 + 2 = 5 is NOT a definition, it is a fact of being long before say ZFC was set up as an axiomatisation. ||| + || --> ||||| as can be seen in OP with fingers. KF kairosfocus
KF, I meant "your" only in the sense that you're one of those here arguing for it. That concept of how we gain knowledge flows from an ontology about the nature of things we can gain knowledge about. You and I have different ontologies; the epistemology you champion here is not relevant to my ontology or to other ontologies that differ significantly from yours (not saying you invented it.) Pragmatism is in fact a sound epistemology for gaining knowledge under my ontology. William J Murray
Mohammadnursyamsu @548: Well said and well-argued. William J Murray
WJM, no, it isn't my epistemology to begin with that's why I took time to cite some of the literature. The only thing that is specifically me is the recognition that there is a weak sense of knowledge, which is defeat-able. So, I summarised, warranted, credibly true [so, reliable] belief. Warrant comes from Plantinga et al in the post Gettier context. Credible truth is a description that the claim true is well supported by a warrant but is subject to revision [this is the opposite of dogmatism]. Reliability is a yardstick of credibility as true in a context of being possibly true. Models are simplifications so strictly false and yet can be reliable, as noted. Belief simply means, if you don't accept it you cannot know it. I once realised that with dangerous inrush currents on the line, I had deep rooted hitherto unconscious doubts on Lenz's law etc and had to consciously review the warrant to lead me to trip the switch. KF kairosfocus
Seversky also makes some very good points. Yes, most of us would agree that torturing a child is evil. But not everyone. But we have also been taught from a very early age that babies and children are very special and deserve our protection. Is this a self-evident truth or a cultural norm that is continually reinforced? The fact that there have been numerous cultures throughout history that sacrificed children suggests that our treatment of children is a culturally learned phenomenon, not a self-evident truth. There is one thing that I guess we can say is self-evidently true. If we routinely kill children in high numbers, the human population would decline and we would go extinct. But this is the truth of math, not of any objective morality. paige
KF, you argue as if your epistemology is the only game in town. It isn't. Your epistemology flows from your ontology. There are other ontologies. William J Murray
VL, SB, who is quite knowledgeable on phil issues, had the better of the case in your recent exchanges. KF kairosfocus
Sev, kindly note that I have already spoken to a spectrum of degree of certainty for knowledge claims tied to varying degree of warrant. Only a relatively few things are absolutely certain, our common usage of knowledge includes defeat-able (defeasible is just too rare) claims such as in Science etc. that said, once a point has been shown to appropriate degree of warrant, it is irrational or irresponsible to play at hyperskeptical games to pretend that it has to be warranted over and over again to arbitrarily high standards. A warranted, credibly true and reliable claim has a right to reasonable respect, much as how we treat the dictionary. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
WJM, pragmatism fails as an epistemological frame. Empirical effectiveness is categorically distinct from truth or warrant. KF
According to your ontology, not mine. William J Murray
Paige, your lack of knowledge of relevant evidence and how it leads to warranted conclusions does not lead to the burden of initial warrant has not been met in regards to many issues, so my general point holds as just that, a general point. Of course, if you are relying on the bought and paid for corporate media and its favoured voices, you will understandably lack context. This thread is about warrant and in that context what is required to defeat weak form knowledge. Self evident truths and the like cannot be defeated. KF kairosfocus
Believe it or not, I agree with Mohammadnursyamsu on some critical things. As willful, rational entities, we are creators, and as such we choose our moral beliefs as creative acts. Morals don't exist "out there" as objective facts, they exist "in here", as chosen expressions of our creative being. Somewhat figuratively, we are all "little gods" in this respect: moral beliefs only come into existence because we choose to believe they are true. Viola Lee
Kairosfocus/538 A few comments:
Knowledge including knowledge that X and knowing how to Y, are vital to our civilisation,the arts, the sciences, technology, economics etc
I think that trying to define knowledge is, to some extent hair-splitting. We are fallible creatures with limited access to information or data about the world in which we live. We would all like to have perfect knowledge - the exact truth - but that is not going to happen in this imperfect world, so what we are really talking about is not certainty but the degree of confidence we vest in the varying information, data and explanations we have acquired so far.
It is also directly relevant to debates over ID; which has been falsely accused of being pseudoscience.
I think "pseudoscience" is a misnomer. There is just science, either done poorly or well. Highlighting the gaps in a theory is a part of science but the more important part of the process is creating something better.
We are all subjects, but manifestly we may attain reliable, credibly true, warranted beliefs worthy of the name knowledge, e.g. that 3 + 2 = 5.
3 + 2 = 5 is true by definition so does the question of warrant even arise? In fact, we could make 3 + 2 = 4 if we wanted by the simple expedient of re-assigning the numeral 4 to represent the quantity five.
As touching moral truths, we know that there are self-evidently true statements regarding, say, matters of justice. Such include that to kidnap, bind, sexually assault and murder a child on its way home from school as an act of pleasure is wrong, evil, ought not to be done etc.
No normal human being would deny that such an act is evil and wrong but does that make it self-evident in the sense that the evil would be immediately apparent to any intelligent being who saw it, whether human or not? We know that, in certain big cat species, adult males will kill and even eat the cubs of other males. The female praying mantis will eat the male after mating. We look down on such behavior as distasteful or even horrible but we don't think of it as evil or wrong. Following from that, it is not too hard to envisage some vastly more advanced alien intelligence looking down on human adults killing human children with a similar sense of lofty detachment. If the evil was not immediately evident to them could we say it is "self-evident"?
Likewise we can readily see that the claim there are no objective moral truths attempts to assert what is objectively the case and refutes itself.
Denying the existence of objective moral truths does not contradict accepting the existence of objective reality. If we recognize the is/ought gap then there can be no moral "truths". Moral claims are about what "ought" to be the case not about what "is". Only claims about what "is" - the observable nature of reality - have the possibility of being true to the extent that they are observed to correspond to what they purport to describe.
More broadly, Ciceronian first duties are inescapable [even for objectors], so are true and self evident. KF
Duties are obligations we assume voluntarily towards ourselves and others in society ostensibly for the benefit of all but, like morals, they are social or cultural constructs which humans beings can and do ignore whenever they choose. Seversky
If I claim that there is a global conspiracy to stifle use of effective COVID treatments, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there is a global media conspiracy, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there was widespread organized fraud in the 2020 election, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there is a global conspiracy to persecute Christians, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. If I claim that there is an LGBQ conspiracy to groom children to their way of life, the burden of proof is on me to prove it. paige
WJM, pragmatism fails as an epistemological frame. Empirical effectiveness is categorically distinct from truth or warrant. KF kairosfocus
The only justification I need for anything I believe or do is: it works in my experience. That trumps anything anyone else has to say on the matter. Other people can argue until they are blue in the face; they can pull out reams of evidence to the contrary and quote from venerated sources; what does all that matter if what I believe and do actually works for me in my experience? Not one bit. William J Murray
VL & Sev, Jerry has the better of the epistemological point. Once a matter has significant warrant -- and yes, that can be followed up -- there is a different burden, to break credibility of associated truth claims. Selective hyperskepticism is not good enough by a long shot. KF kairosfocus
It is all just a total outrage of fact obsessed intellectuals, trying to shaft emotions, subjectivity, mangle it, torture it, do away with it. So then with subjectivity out the window, they can pontificate on statements with objectivity only, with the feelings of certitude associated to facts. There is no objective moral truth whatsoever, logic clearly shows this, as much as it shows 1 + 1 =2. In principle, chemistry is perfectly objective, so is physics. Objectivity just means to make a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it, it is just copying. In no way can "justice" be copied, in no way is it a thing that can be seen, like a planet. Objective morality is a total and utter lie. You have no argumentation to say morality is objective. No logic, no definitions of words, it is just a blatant lie. You do not do your homework! Your argument that there are objective moral truths is, that it is monstrous to deny that there are objective moral truthts. Give me a break. There is no logical progression in your argumentation. Make definitions of words that logically connect to each other. Do your homework. definitions: fact = a 1 to 1 corresponding model of a creation, in the mind, forced by the evidence of the creation opinion = a chosen expression that identifies what it is that makes a choice objective = that which is identified with a fact subjective = that which is identified with an opinion So the planet, it being a creation, is identified with a fact forced by the evidence of it. We measure the circumference of Saturn, the mass of it, and everything else, to end up with an exhaustive 1 to 1 corresponding model of it in the mind, which constitute, all the facts about Saturn. Justice, it is on the side of what makes a choice, it can only be identified with a chosen opinion. A judge chooses a judgement. Was the choice made out of justice? It is a matter of chosen opinion. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact more definitions: to choose = to make one of alternative futures the present spiritual = the substance of something that makes a choice material = the substance of something that is chosen mohammadnursyamsu
Burden of proof, Jerry. First, give us a reason to think you are right.
Both answers are proof I am right. Three specific answers are Biden, Fauci and the book Slanted by Sharyl Attkisson. There are lots more. jerry
Jerry/544
If any one disagrees, prove me wrong.
Burden of proof, Jerry. First, give us a reason to think you are right. Seversky
I don't get this "prove me wrong" meme that is going around. "Prove you are right" ought to be the response. Viola Lee
Do you really have that low of an opinion of people?
Some people. Unfortunately too many are in positions of power and influence Especially government bureaucrats. And now apparently most scientists and those in the medical establishment. And nearly everyone in the press. It's got to the point where you know the press is lying and probably quoting various officials who are also lying. So to justify one‘s beliefs and get at the truth, it becomes a game of searching for contradictory reports and trying to judge what are the relevant facts and where the truth lies. If any one disagrees, prove me wrong. jerry
PPS: A linked issue, the crisis of reliability in professional literature:
https://archive.is/xLGE5 May 21, 2021 | By Christine Clark UC SD News Center A New Replication Crisis: Research that is Less Likely to be True is Cited More Papers that cannot be replicated are cited 153 times more because their findings are interesting, according to a new UC San Diego study. Papers in leading psychology, economic and science journals that fail to replicate and therefore are less likely to be true are often the most cited papers in academic research, according to a new study by the University of California San Diego’s Rady School of Management. Published in Science Advances, the paper explores the ongoing “replication crisis” in which researchers have discovered that many findings in the fields of social sciences and medicine don’t hold up when other researchers try to repeat the experiments. The paper reveals that findings from studies that cannot be verified when the experiments are repeated have a bigger influence over time. The unreliable research tends to be cited as if the results were true long after the publication failed to replicate. “We also know that experts can predict well which papers will be replicated,” write the authors Marta Serra-Garcia, assistant professor of economics and strategy at the Rady School and Uri Gneezy, professor of behavioral economics also at the Rady School. “Given this prediction, we ask ‘why are non-replicable papers accepted for publication in the first place?’” Their possible answer is that review teams of academic journals face a trade-off. When the results are more “interesting,” they apply lower standards regarding their reproducibility. The link between interesting findings and nonreplicable research also can explain why it is cited at a much higher rate—the authors found that papers that successfully replicate are cited 153 times less than those that failed. “Interesting or appealing findings are also covered more by media or shared on platforms like Twitter, generating a lot of attention, but that does not make them true,” Gneezy said. Serra-Garcia and Gneezy analyzed data from three influential replication projects which tried to systematically replicate the findings in top psychology, economic and general science journals (Nature and Science). In psychology, only 39 percent of the 100 experiments successfully replicated. In economics, 61 percent of the 18 studies replicated as did 62 percent of the 21 studies published in Nature/Science. With the findings from these three replication projects, the authors used Google Scholar to test whether papers that failed to replicate are cited significantly more often than those that were successfully replicated, both before and after the replication projects were published. The largest gap was in papers published in Nature/Science: non-replicable papers were cited 300 times more than replicable ones. When the authors took into account several characteristics of the studies replicated—such as the number of authors, the rate of male authors, the details of the experiment (location, language and online implementation) and the field in which the paper was published—the relationship between replicability and citations was unchanged. They also show the impact of such citations grows over time. Yearly citation counts reveal a pronounced gap between papers that replicated and those that did not. On average, papers that failed to replicate are cited 16 times more per year. This gap remains even after the replication project is published. “Remarkably, only 12 percent of post-replication citations of non-replicable findings acknowledge the replication failure,” the authors write . . .
Sobering. Notice, the use of inference to the best explanation. kairosfocus
PS: On Heuristics, using Wiki as a handy first summary:
A heuristic technique, or a heuristic (/hj???r?st?k/; Ancient Greek: ???????, heurísk?, 'I find, discover'), is any approach to problem solving or self-discovery that employs a practical method that is not guaranteed to be optimal, perfect, or rational, but is nevertheless sufficient for reaching an immediate, short-term goal or approximation. Where finding an optimal solution is impossible or impractical, heuristic methods can be used to speed up the process of finding a satisfactory solution. Heuristics can be mental shortcuts that ease the cognitive load of making a decision.[1]:94[2] Examples that employ heuristics include using trial and error, a rule of thumb or an educated guess. Overview Heuristics are the strategies derived from previous experiences with similar problems. These strategies depend on using readily accessible, though loosely applicable, information to control problem solving in human beings, machines and abstract issues.[3][4]When an individual applies a heuristic in practice, it generally performs as expected. However it can alternatively create systematic errors.[5] The most fundamental heuristic is trial and error, which can be used in everything from matching nuts and bolts to finding the values of variables in algebra problems. In mathematics, some common heuristics involve the use of visual representations, additional assumptions, forward/backward reasoning and simplification.[6] Here are a few commonly used heuristics from George Pólya's 1945 book, How to Solve It:[7] If you are having difficulty understanding a problem, try drawing a picture. If you can't find a solution, try assuming that you have a solution and seeing what you can derive from that ("working backward"). If the problem is abstract, try examining a concrete example. Try solving a more general problem first (the "inventor's paradox": the more ambitious plan may have more chances of success). In psychology, heuristics are simple, efficient rules, learned or inculcated by evolutionary processes, that have been proposed to explain how people make decisions, come to judgments, and solve problems typically when facing complex problems or incomplete information. Researchers test if people use those rules with various methods. These rules work well under most circumstances, but in certain cases can lead to systematic errors or cognitive biases.[8] History The study of heuristics in human decision-making was developed in the 1970s and the 1980s by the psychologists Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman[9] although the concept had been originally introduced by the Nobel laureate Herbert A. Simon, whose original, primary object of research was problem solving that showed that we operate within what he calls bounded rationality. He coined the term satisficing, which denotes a situation in which people seek solutions, or accept choices or judgments, that are "good enough" for their purposes although they could be optimized.[10] Rudolf Groner analyzed the history of heuristics from its roots in ancient Greece up to contemporary work in cognitive psychology and artificial intelligence,[11] proposing a cognitive style "heuristic versus algorithmic thinking," which can be assessed by means of a validated questionnaire.[12] . . .
Reliable heuristics, in the right micro and macroenvironment [Plantinga speaks of mini and max] can provide credible warrant. This of course points to the logic of inference to the best explanation and broader modern sense inductive reasoning. Similarly, we can ponder the art of judgement informed and constrained by duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant!], to sound conscience, to neighbour, so to fairness and justice etc -- the Ciceronian first duties. (This gives an idea as to how moral first truths regarding duty guide and rightly govern reasoning.) All of this then feeds into strategic analysis, synthesis, decision making and execution. kairosfocus
F/N: Routledge, Enc of Phil, on the Gettier challenge:
The expression ‘the Gettier problem’ refers to one or another problem exposed by Edmund Gettier when discussing the relation between several examples that he constructed and analyses of knowing advanced by various philosophers, including Plato in the Theatetus. Gettier’s examples appear to run counter to these ‘standard’ or ‘traditional’ analyses. A few philosophers take this appearance to be deceptive and regard the genuine problem revealed by Gettier to be: ‘How can one show that Gettier’s examples are not really counterexamples to the standard analyses?’ But most philosophers take seriously the problem which is the central concern of this entry: ‘How can such standard analyses be altered so that Gettier’s cases do not constitute counterexamples to the modified analyses (and without opening the analyses to further objections?)’. Gettier’s short paper spawned many important, ongoing projects in contemporary epistemology – for instance, attempts to add a fourth condition of knowing to the traditional analyses, attempts to replace some conditions of those analyses, such as externalist accounts of knowing or justification (causal theories and reliability theories), and revived interest in scepticism, including an investigation of the deductive closure principle. Difficulties uncovered at each stage of this research have generated an ever more sophisticated set of accounts of knowing and justification, as well as a wealth of examples useful for testing proposed analyses. In spite of the vast literature that Gettier’s brief paper elicited, there is still no widespread agreement as to whether the Gettier problem has been solved, nor as to what constitutes the most promising line of research.
We can thus see how powerful its impact was, though of course phil is always about hard problems with no easy answers and only rarely is there explicit unanimity. In addition, almost all alternatives on key issues will have difficulties, so we are back to comparative difficulties. Of course, we see an implicit general consensus that Gettier led to the modern flux on epistemology, even though others had raised similar examples long before. n 1963, the fire kindled and still burns. Going further, notice, how much of the modern discussion focusses on true -- not just credibly true -- belief, which then leads to [in]fallibility debates etc. But as I pointed out, the term knowledge is also even more widely used in a weaker sense, e.g. in science, history etc. That is why the OP broadens the issue somewhat from the strong form claim Plantinga discussed. Once that is recognised we can see that by taking a spectrum view of strength of knowledge claims and tying that to a spectrum view of degree of warrant -- a term which we definitively showed yesterday is in the professional literature for cause so it is neither a needless bit of jargon nor idiosyncratic, much less "pompous" -- we can draw out significant insights. For example, we see that degree of belief is influenced by degree of trust in the warrant, but degree of certainty clearly attaches to strength of warrant, thus reduced possibility of falsity or accidental truth. So, we have a range of warrant, from inadequate, to sufficient to secure some empirical reliability with possibility of truth [models differ, as simplifications they are known false heuristic devices], to moral certainty on which one would be irresponsible to view and treat a knowledge or fact claim as false or unreliable, and onward to cases of utter certainty, e.g. arising from self evidence due to undeniability, inescapability, inspectable certainty etc. Notice, i/l/o the pessimistic induction, scientific theories -- as in effect open-ended, provisional explanations -- cannot in themselves be even morally certain. However, their reliability in a zone of tested performance [a given micro environment] and the associated observations can be morally certain. However, known false and even implausibly artificial models often have the same property. Empirical reliability is not adequate for truth or for candidacy to be true. This decisively overturns Scientism, the notion that Big-S Science monopolises or so dominates credible knowledge that once the "consensus" speaks, the matter is settled. Such is important as Scientism is an obvious manipulative device of technocratic elites. Such is also obviously highly relevant to the design inference. So, it is reasonable to take the view that knowledge is warranted, credibly true [and so, reliable] belief. It is also reasonable to see that warrant is a useful term, and one that is sufficiently present in epistemological literature. (Sadly, that has to be explicitly, correctively stated.) Further to such, historical or forensic knowledge is knowledge in the same weak sense as Science is. Knowledge of persons by encounter and acquaintance, including recognition of the mind etc, is knowledge. Know-how is knowledge that includes belief and confidence in reliability but also includes tested skills and linked responsibility. Ponder, knowing how to drive a car and the warrant provided by tests and issued licences. There is even room for the heuristic termed intuitive knowledge, once that confident perception has been tested to the point of well founded confidence. Knowledge can come from credible authority, though no authority or expert is better than his/her facts, reasoning [and associated skills] as well as controlling assumptions. Expertise rests on successful, tested heuristics leading to domain expertise. This is what knowledge base programming seeks to mimic. And more. KF kairosfocus
Paige, shamefully, it took nearly a half a century for the Piltdown hoax to be exposed. A lot of false knowledge was built on it and it was for years an icon of evolutionary theory. We can say much the same regarding, say, Haeckels' embryos and ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. And more. Sandy is right that the whole sordid mess raised general questions on the integrity and credibility of Science Institutions and leading voices. Similar issues obtain for eugenics and other issues including valid concerns regarding debates on origins, on climate trends and drivers, on economics and linked policy, on issues in computer science [ponder AI] and even on management of the ongoing pandemic. All of these are tied to the issue of warrant thus credibility of claimed knowledge and of institutionalised claimed knowledge. KF kairosfocus
KM, SB is an esteemed contributor to UD, the only complaint is we do not see enough of him, esp on OPs. While UD is not a place for endless debating of internet atheist anti-Christian talk points etc, there is a legitimate place for correction. Which may include linking to where further discussion is. I note, such a link I provided seems to have been side-stepped. KF kairosfocus
MNY (attn Paige): No. My interest is explicit from the title above, what is knowledge, a major feature of our intellectual life and the focal question for epistemology, one of the main branches of philosophy. Knowledge including knowledge that X and knowing how to Y, are vital to our civilisation,the arts, the sciences, technology, economics etc. It is also directly relevant to debates over ID; which has been falsely accused of being pseudoscience. We are all subjects, but manifestly we may attain reliable, credibly true, warranted beliefs worthy of the name knowledge, e.g. that 3 + 2 = 5. Such warrant has in it as a constituent property, objectivity, i.e. it has passed responsible tests that make it rise above simple dismissal as mere opinion of an error-prone individual strongly prone to being false or at best accidentally true. See Gettier on that last. As touching moral truths, we know that there are self-evidently true statements regarding, say, matters of justice. Such include that to kidnap, bind, sexually assault and murder a child on its way home from school as an act of pleasure is wrong, evil, ought not to be done etc. Those who evade or deny such simply show themselves monstrous. Likewise we can readily see that the claim there are no objective moral truths attempts to assert what is objectively the case and refutes itself. More broadly, Ciceronian first duties are inescapable [even for objectors], so are true and self evident. KF kairosfocus
Sandy
Nope. The scientist that discovered the hoax could have lied. Probably many discovered or knew about hoax before but they had chosen to lie.
Do you really have that low of an opinion of people? paige
the Piltdown hoax was revealed through science, not morality.
Nope. The scientist that discovered the hoax could have lied. Probably many discovered or knew about hoax before but they had chosen to lie. Reason(philosophy ) and morality are always higher placed than science because without them there is no science, there is "Piltdown Man"science and atheists that try to philosophize ;) Sandy
Sandy
A long chain of hoaxes starting with The Piltdown Man hoax tells you something?
Yes. It tells us that scientists suffer from the same weaknesses as the rest of us. However, it must be pointed out that the Piltdown hoax was revealed through science, not morality. You haven’t answered why science requires morality. I agree that it requires logic, but not morality. Where morality comes into play is how science is applied. Nuclear physics can be applied to produce energy and medical treatments. But it can also be used to kill people by the thousands. Biochemistry can be used to develop vaccines or to engineer deadly viruses. Population genetics can be used to identify people who are prone to genetic diseases or to apply eugenics. The application is not science, it is politics and policy. paige
How is morality necessary for science?
:)) A long chain of hoaxes starting with The Piltdown Man hoax tells you something?Thousands of doctoral theses had been written about this "scientific" discovery. Many generations of naive children have been brainwashed about truth of evolution and after 40 years the hoax is caught. :) Evolution needed "a boost" hahaha. People ,you should never believe a scientist that start a phrase with "Millions years ago..." ,Probably, possibly, is an explanation, etc...No repeatability,no lab experiments, only stories about how could,may, should happened... There is no difference between darwinism and Piltdown Man, both are hoaxes. As time passes by the target of finding real explanations for how life started ,how information(as immaterial entity) was written in cell, how "randomness" respond very intelligently to environment stimuli and in 1 generation appear changes that prepare new generation for challenges that their parents faced ,etc. People read Dawkins,Harris,Dennet fairytales and they think that is evolution's reality. Sandy
Karen McMannus: "Now, care to address the point I made in @194. You’re probably not allowed to. Convenient for you." @194 and 195, you made several uninformed, disconnected and irrational claims about the God of the Old Testament and my alleged hypocrisy, as if the two were connected in some way. It was an emotional rant with no intellectual substance,, which is why I asked you to be specific about the "point" you think you made. No one has ever tried to silence me at this site, so your insinuations that I may not be "allowed to" is just another example of how you rely on your feelings when you should be trying to think things through. You responded by saying this:
I suspect your IQ is around 90. No point in ongoing exchanges. Take care.
And so we have yet another example of your inability to tolerate refutations and corrections without getting all worked up. Try to make your point, if you have one, and I will address it. No subject is off limits for me, especially since the battle over self-evident truth moral truths has already been won by our side. StephenB
M@531, very good point. paige
It seems to me you are trying to conflate subjectivity and objectivity into one, and then you get warranted belief. You are obviously supposed to separate subjectivity from objectivity, and validate each in their own right. But you conflate them, apparently because of some kind of psychological need for the feelings of certitude. Especially a need for certitude in moral questions. mohammadnursyamsu
F/N: It's worth pausing to explore a bit more on warrant and knowledge, post Gettier, e.g.:
INFALLIBILISM AND GETTIER’S LEGACY Daniel and Frances Howard-Snyder and Neil Feit Philosophy & Phenomenological Research, March 2003 Abstract. Infallibilism is the view that a belief cannot be at once warranted and false. In this essay we assess three nonpartisan arguments for infallibilism, arguments that do not depend on a prior commitment to some substantive theory of warrant. Three premises,one from each argument, are most significant: (1) if a belief can be at once warranted and false, then the Gettier Problem cannot be solved; (2) if a belief can be at once warranted and false, then its warrant can be transferred to an accidentally true belief; (3) if a belief can be at once warranted and false, then it can be warranted and accidentally true. We argue that each of these is either false or no more plausible than its denial. Along the way, we offer a solution to the Gettier Problem that is compatible with fallibilism. [Intro:] Mere true belief is not knowledge. Warrant is that, whatever precisely it is, (enough of which) makes the difference between knowledge and mere true belief.1 We will call the view that a belief cannot be at once warranted and false ‘infallibilism’ and we will call the view that a belief can be at once warranted and false ‘fallibilism’.2 One might argue for infallibilism in the following way: the property of being warranted is identical with a certain property described and defended by a particular substantive theory of warrant; a belief cannot have that property unless it is true; so a belief cannot be at once warranted and false—warrant entails truth . . .
Similarly, Toulmin can be engaged, as we can see in a brief argument at Thoughtco that exposes how enthymemes can be used manipulatively, while surfacing degree of warrant as a consideration:
Warrants in the Toulmin Model of Argument By Richard Nordquist Updated April 14, 2019 In the Toulmin model of argument, a warrant is a general rule indicating the relevance of a claim. A warrant may be explicit or implicit, but in either case, says David Hitchcock, a warrant is not the same as a premise. "Toulmin's grounds are premises in the traditional sense, propositions from which the claim is presented as following, but no other component of Toulmin's scheme is a premise." Hitchcock goes on to describe a warrant as "an inference-licensing rule": "The claim is not presented as following from the warrant; rather it is presented as following from the grounds in accordance with the warrant" Examples and Observations "[T]he Toulmin warrant usually consists of a specific span of text which relates directly to the argument being made. To use a well-worn example, the datum 'Harry was born in Bermuda' supports the claim 'Harry is a British subject' via the warrant 'Persons born in Bermuda are British subjects.'" "The connection between the data and the conclusion is created by something called a 'warrant.' One of the important points made by Toulmin is that the warrant is a kind of inference rule and in particular not a statement of facts." "In enthymemes, warrants are often unstated but recoverable. In 'alcoholic beverages should be outlawed in the U.S. because they cause death and disease each year,' the first clause is the conclusion, and the second the data. The unstated warrant is fairly phrased as 'In the U.S. we agree that products causing death and disease should be made illegal.' Sometimes leaving the warrant unstated makes a weak argument seem stronger; recovering the warrant to examine its other implications is helpful in argument criticism. The warrant above would also justify outlawing tobacco, firearms, and automobiles."
As a third case, let us look at:
Warrant Does Entail Truth Andrew Moon Synthese 184 (3):287-297 (2012) Abstract Let ‘warrant’ denote whatever precisely it is that makes the difference between knowledge and mere true belief. A current debate in epistemology asks whether warrant entails truth, i.e., whether (Infallibilism) S’s belief that p is warranted only if p is true. The arguments for infallibilism have come under considerable and, as of yet, unanswered objections. In this paper, I will defend infallibilism. In Part I, I advance a new argument for infallibilism; the basic outline is as follows. Suppose fallibilism is true. An implication of fallibilism is that the property that makes the difference between knowledge and mere belief (which I dub ‘warrant*’) is the conjunctive property being warranted and true . I show that this implication of fallibilism conflicts with an uncontroversial thesis we have learned from reflection on Gettier cases: that nonaccidental truth is a constituent of warrant*. It follows that infallibilism is true. In the second part of the paper, I present and criticize a new argument against infallibilism. The argument states that there are plausible cases where, intuitively, the only thing that is keeping a belief from counting as knowledge is the falsity of that belief. Furthermore, it is plausible that such a belief is warranted and false. So, the argument goes, infallibilism is false. I show that this argument fails.
Immediately, "warrant" is not idiosyncratic [or, worse, "pompous"] and features in the literature in Plantinga's first sense, the bill of requisites to move from true belief to knowledge, implying resolution of Gettier type counter instances. Plantinga's second sense is in effect a theory of warrant in a nutshell. As stated, it includes his 1997 refinement, that the micro environment must be proper not just the broad general environment. Toulmin's usage is also interesting, throwing a side light that fills otherwise shadowy issues. For, we see that a warrant connects grounds reliably to conclusions, in effect being a heuristic of inference. Here, heuristics obviously come in widely varying degree of utility and strength. Here, we find Hitchcock significant, describing warrant as: "an inference-licensing rule": "The claim is not presented as following from the warrant; rather it is presented as following from the grounds in accordance with the warrant." Licences, of course are issued by credible authorities and provide a degree of guarantee as to quality etc. As, can be seen from driver's licences and automobile licences. This then fill-lights Plantinga's summary:
a belief has warrant for a ["representative"] person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan [often, naturally evident] that is successfully aimed at truth.
What about [in-]fallibility? I find a good tack is to look at knowledge as commonly used, e.g. in science, history and day to day affairs. Immediately, we see that the most common meaning implies significant but not absolute reliability. At one extreme comparatively few things are known to utter certainty, at the other, some claim knowledge on very weak or outright fallacious grounds, e.g. regarding folk remedies or, too often, media reports. So, knowledge must come in degrees, tied to reliability and strength of warrant. With that proviso, the accounts of knowledge and warrant work together very well. KF kairosfocus
I agree. Intelligent design is a statement of fact.
Not really. It certainly deals with all the relevant facts but if much more than that. It's science to a more advanced degree than practiced by normal scientists. Part of a scientific study is to form conclusions based on the results. ID has a wider range of possible conclusions then traditional science. As I said above 99.9999% of studies will have conclusions that ID will agree with. There are some obvious exceptions. A better way to look at it is to think of it as more advanced science. Or traditional science + jerry
Jerry
ID is not really a theory.
I agree. Intelligent design is a statement of fact. paige
Sandy
Kairosfocus it’s enough for you to say that without philosophy and morality it’s impossible to do science.
How is morality necessary for science? I agree that it is desired, and that all funding bodies should require it, but science can occur in the absence of morality. The NAZIs conducted numerous immoral scientific experiments. Just because they were immoral does not make the conclusions drawn from them any less scientific. paige
I don’t know any theory for which there isn’t justified criticism.
ID is not really a theory. It is a set of conclusions about how the world works. On a physical level that includes physics, chemistry and most of biology. The four basic laws of physics operate in these areas and explain nearly all findings but there definitely appears some obvious exceptions. ID agrees with 99.9999% of the conclusions of science but concludes that a small percentage of findings are best explained by the intervention of an intelligence. So it takes the same information every science department has but comes to different conclusions on a very small number of findings because of where the data logically points. If anything it’s conclusions are getting better substantial with nearly every study done. I can’t think of any study ever done which contradicts its conclusions and plenty which supports it. People criticize ID for not having a science program but in fact every science project in the world is support for ID.                         So justification of it gets stronger all the time. Question: are you aware of this? You probably doubt what I am saying but ID has no problem backing this claim up. And no one can dispute it without lying. The really interesting issue is why this isn’t known and why the science community lies about ID. jerry
Kairosfocus it's enough for you to say that without philosophy and morality it's impossible to do science. :) First are philosophy and morality then come science. And the root of morality (that is not a material thing)is an immaterial thing. To do science you need God. :)) Sandy
The interesting exchange between Jerry and SB led to the following:
Knowing that a certain behavior will lead to an existential result (such as survival of myself and my family) causes one to recognize it as a duty.
IMO, nobody "recognizes" it as a "duty" outside of having been trained or taught to consider it a "duty." What almost everyone would recognize it as is an enjoyable preference. They prefer they and their family live and thrive and enjoy their lives as much as possible because they personally find that highly enjoyable directly and in some abstract sense, so they pursue those actions and behaviors they believe best acquire that goal and/or directly give them that enjoyment. "Duties" are just preferences seen through a different lens that make actions towards those preferences seem more important, or more objective, or less self-serving, than they actually are. To say I have a duty to something I do not prefer, either directly or in an abstract sense, is nonsense. William J Murray
SB said:
Concerning WJM’s argument: It isn’t the duties that cause the behavior; it is the knowledge of the duties that does it. That fact that a duty exists does not have causative power. Knowing that a duty exists does have causative power.
What do you mean by "know?" I have no conscious knowledge of such duties. William J Murray
PPS: Cicero, again:
—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man [--> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for . “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [--> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans [--> esp. Cicero, speaking as a leading statesman], an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.
[--> this points to the wellsprings of reality, the only place where is and ought can be bridged; bridged, through the inherently good utterly wise, maximally great necessary being, the creator God, which adequately answers the Euthyphro dilemma and Hume's guillotine argument surprise on seeing reasoning is-is then suddenly a leap to ought-ought. IS and OUGHT are fused from the root]
This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.
kairosfocus
KM, SB -- who BTW has (and shows) advanced training in both Philosophy and Communication -- has won the key point. There are moral truths, including self-evident ones. Those are tied to the Ciceronian first duties, which in actual fact of history are pivotal to the rise of modern liberty and self-government under law. KF PS: Here is how the objectivity and self-evidence of built-in, conscience attested moral law coeval with our humanity decisively shaped history:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [--> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
kairosfocus
StephenB, I suspect your IQ is around 90. No point in ongoing exchanges. Take care. Karen McMannus
Paige (attn Jerry): by trying to dismiss a significant distinction on grounds of knowledge as "pomposity," sadly, you show a refusal to respond to evidence and argument built up by professionals addressing epistemology for nearly sixty years. For record, it is duly noted that such dismissiveness to substance, tellingly, undermines ability to build sound knowledge. It is a case of crooked yardstick, fallacious thinking by way of erecting a strawman and knocking it over. Knowledge is not opinion, nor is it beliefs that one may understandably have a right to, it requires significantly more, which is what eminent philosopher Alvin Plantinga has provided. As was explicitly cited from OP on. KF PS: Philosophy is one of the most technical of disciplines. Philosophical issues, which includes theory of knowledge, epistemology, require development of relevant terminology and techniques. Sometimes, existing terms are adapted to novel use, sometimes there is coinage [often from Latin or Greek, e. g. episteme + logos --> study of knowledge]. As can easily be seen, Gettier exposed a lurking problem in 1963, setting off shock waves that still have not settled down. Plantinga has made a significant contribution, which I have used because of its manifest cogency. PPS: BTW, for years, that term has been quite useful here at UD, it is only the rhetorical decision to start a word fight [and to join that to personalities] that has kicked up a squid ink cloud. kairosfocus
Jerry
I’m not sure pomposity is the right criticism. To me warrant means the same as the word justification. Kf disagrees.
You are correct. The use of the word ‘warrant’ alone does not demonstrate pomposity and arrogance. I have use it myself in different context. But it is the way in which KF uses it that makes it pompous. The average person does not start a sentence with “with warrant I...”
It is about what is truth. Nearly all people go around with a lot of unjustified/unwarranted beliefs/opinions.
We agree on this.
As far as ID is concerned there is no criticism against it that is justified ....
Are you sure this is what you mean to say? I don’t know any theory for which there isn’t justified criticism. It is through the response to justified criticism that scientific theories either become stronger or weaker. paige
StephenB: Do you still hold that it is self-evidently true that we should not torture babies for fun…? KM
Yes. And I’ve not said otherwise.
Good. You are starting to show signs of life.
[When I said] “It was obvious that natural law philosophies are bunk. Without direct revelation from the creator, it’s all a morass of subjective opinions and feelings”, does not contradict what I said about the self-evidential truth about torturing babies for fun.
It is a clear contradiction, A “morass of subjective opinions and feelings” is the very opposite of a knowable, objective truth.
Self-evidently true things do not rely on any philosophy. If they did they would not be self-evidently true. Duh.
Which is why they don’t require a “direct revelation from the Creator." Duh StephenB
StephenB: Do you still hold that it is self-evidently true that we should not torture babies for fun…? KM
Yes. And I’ve not said otherwise.
StephenB
The word “warrant” just adds a level of pomposity to the monologue that is unnecessary. Serious and honest discussions use terminology that all can relate to.
I’m not sure pomposity is the right criticism. To me warrant means the same as the word justification. Kf disagrees. It is about what is truth. Nearly all people go around with a lot of unjustified/unwarranted beliefs/opinions. Most are harmless and don’t affect their lives. But others are crucial for a better world and actually thwart progress in life. Some actually kill unnecessarily. As far as ID is concerned there is no criticism against it that is justified yet most who know about it have a negative image of it and believe it is nonsense. So consequently it is an issue here. Look at opinions/beliefs that people have and know many are not justified. What leads to a well justified belief? That is what this debate is about. It has a lot to do with power/money as some interests are always interested in people being uninformed. jerry
I have a picture with Bobby Orr. He was a perfect gentleman. Wayne Cashman, not so much. When I was a kid my father worked at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto until he was fired by Harold Ballard for bringing to his attention that there was some child abuse going on by facility staff (I was one of the victims). We then moved to Boston. So, obviously, I am not a Maple Leafs fan. But I still have family in Toronto. Am I showing my age? :) paige
Who are you cheering for? .
The Seacoast Spartans. There was a clinic going on at the local rinks in New Hampshire. Around here everyone is a Bruins fan. Except I don’t have any strong feelings for any of the pro teams. jerry
StephenB: Do you still hold that it is self-evidently true that we should not torture babies for fun...? Yes. And I've not said otherwise. "It was obvious that natural law philosophies are bunk. Without direct revelation from the creator, it’s all a morass of subjective opinions and feelings", does not contradict what I said about the self-evidential truth about torturing babies for fun. Self-evidently true things do not rely on any philosophy. If they did they would not be self-evidently true. Duh. Now, care to address the point I made in @194. You're probably not allowed to. Convenient for you. Karen McMannus
Jerry
The word “warrant” gets in the way of what is happening/necessary to increasingly get what is more certain.
The word “warrant” just adds a level of pomposity to the monologue that is unnecessary. Serious and honest discussions use terminology that all can relate to. Those who wish to confuse their opponents and make them look inferior use words, phrases and references (eg, Cicero, Plato, Aristotke) that the majority of people are not familiar with. If you can’t make your point with language and phrases that people are familiar with, maybe your point is not valid. paige
Jerry
It’s now hockey time. Off to the local hockey rinks.
Who are you cheering for? By respect for you revolves around your answer. :) paige
Jerry, for cause, I am satisfied that the matter is clear enough. Similarly, given the context, the shift in terminology was in order and is useful. KF kairosfocus
Karen Mcmannus: --- "StephenB, you apparently have comprehension issues." I comprehend what you said very well. @194, on the question about knowing if it is self-evidently true that we should not torture babies for fun, you said "He does (WJM), You do. I do. We all do." Those are your words. So my question persists: Do you still hold that it is self-evidently true that we should not torture babies for fun, or have you changed your mind again? Surely, you understand (or maybe you don't) that when you say yes to that question you are also acknowledging that the objective natural moral exists as a self evident truth. StephenB
. the context is quite clear
It is so clear that I cannot understand your explanation or anything you say about why the term is needed. It seems contrived at best snd completely unnecessary.
The framework allows a range of degrees of justification and credibility or certainty of knowledge claims, a key feature. It draws out how the rationale or faculty behind the claim must be framed and situated for reliability. It is induction-friendly and abduction friendly. It has room for self evident truths and for deductive, axiomatic systems
Just change one word and nothing changes except now there is a focus on what is really needed, further/better/more sound justification for a belief. The word “warrant” gets in the way of what is happening/necessary to increasingly get what is more certain. It’s now hockey time. Off to the local hockey rinks. jerry
Jerry, the context is quite clear. It is possible to be justified in having a true belief but fail to have knowledge. Warrant was introduced to first be a placeholder for whatever would fill the gap. A theory was developed after interacting with relevant issues, as boiled down just above. The framework allows a range of degrees of warrant and credibility or certainty of knowledge claims, a key feature. It draws out how the rationale or faculty behind the claim must be framed and situated for reliability. It is induction-friendly and abduction friendly. It has room for self evident truths and for deductive, axiomatic systems. KF kairosfocus
Vivid, in my youth, given the chaos playing out in my homeland, I made a study on rise of tyranny, with an especial focus on Germany, but with secondary foci on the Marxists. The direct parallel to where the US is today is striking. KF PS: Even Wikipedia is informative:
The Reichstag fire (German: Reichstagsbrand, About this soundlisten (help·info)) was an arson attack on the Reichstag building, home of the German parliament in Berlin, on Monday 27 February 1933, precisely four weeks after Adolf Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor of Germany. Hitler's government stated that Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch council communist, was the culprit, and it attributed the fire to communist agitators. A German court decided later that year that Van der Lubbe had acted alone, as he had claimed. The day after the fire, the Reichstag Fire Decree was passed. The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext to claim that communists were plotting against the German government, which made the fire pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany. The first report of the fire came shortly after 9:00 p.m., when a Berlin fire station received an alarm call.[1] By the time police and firefighters arrived, the lower house 'Chamber of Deputies' was engulfed in flames. The police conducted a thorough search inside the building and accused Van der Lubbe. He was arrested, as were four communist leaders soon after. Hitler urged President Paul von Hindenburg to issue an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties and pursue a "ruthless confrontation" with the Communist Party of Germany.[2][page needed] After the decree was issued, the government instituted mass arrests of communists, including all of the Communist Party's parliamentary delegates. With their bitter rival communists gone and their seats empty, the Nazi Party went from having a plurality to a majority, thus enabling Hitler to consolidate his power. [--> see how the following election played out and how the dictatorship enabling act was passed] In February 1933, Bulgarians Georgi Dimitrov, Vasil Tanev, and Blagoy Popov were arrested, and they played pivotal roles during the Leipzig Trial, also known as the "Reichstag Fire Trial". They were known to the Prussian police as senior Comintern operatives, but the police had no idea how senior they were. Dimitrov was the head of all Comintern operations in Western Europe. The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains a topic of debate and research.[3][4] The Nazis accused the Comintern of the act. However, some historians believe, based on archive evidence, that the arson had been planned and ordered by the Nazis as a false flag operation.[5][6] The building remained in its damaged state until it was partially repaired from 1961 to 1964 and completely restored from 1995 to 1999. In 2008, Germany posthumously pardoned Van der Lubbe under a law introduced in 1998 to lift unjust verdicts dating from the Nazi era.
Observe, further:
The day after the fire, at Hitler's request, President Hindenburg signed the Reichstag Fire Decree into law by using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany, including habeas corpus, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right of free association and public assembly, and the secrecy of the post and telephone.[18] These rights were not reinstated during Nazi reign. The decree was used by the Nazis to ban publications not considered "friendly" to the Nazi cause. Despite the fact that Marinus van der Lubbe claimed to have acted alone in the Reichstag fire, Hitler, after having obtained his emergency powers, announced that it was the start of a Communist plot to take over Germany. Nazi Party newspapers then published this fabricated "news".[18] This sent the German population into a panic and isolated the Communists further among the civilians; additionally, thousands of Communists were imprisoned in the days following the fire (including leaders of the Communist Party of Germany) on the charge that the Party was preparing to stage a putsch. Speaking to Rudolph Diels about Communists during the Reichstag fire, Hitler said "These sub-humans do not understand how the people stand at our side. In their mouse-holes, out of which they now want to come, of course they hear nothing of the cheering of the masses."[19] With Communist electoral participation also suppressed (the Communists previously polled 17% of the vote), the Nazis were able to increase their share of the vote in the 5 March 1933 Reichstag elections from 33% to 44%.[20] This gave the Nazis and their allies, the German National People's Party (who won 8% of the vote), a majority of 52% in the Reichstag.[20] While the Nazis emerged with a majority, they fell short of their goal, which was to win 50–55% of the vote that year.[20] The Nazis thought that this would make it difficult to achieve their next goal, passage of the Enabling Act giving Hitler the right to rule by decree, which required a two-thirds majority.[20] However, several important factors weighed in the Nazis' favour, mainly the continued suppression of the Communist Party and the Nazis' ability to capitalize on national security concerns. Moreover, some deputies of the Social Democratic Party (the only party that would vote against the Enabling Act) were prevented from taking their seats in the Reichstag, due to arrests and intimidation by the Nazi SA. As a result, the Social Democratic Party would be under-represented in the final vote tally. The Enabling Act passed easily on 23 March 1933, with the support of the right-wing German National People's Party, the Centre Party, and several fragmented middle-class parties. The measure went into force on 24 March, effectively making Hitler dictator of Germany.[21] The Kroll Opera House, sitting across the Königsplatz from the burned-out Reichstag building, functioned as the Reichstag's venue for the remaining 12 years of the Third Reich's existence.[22]
Lessons of history dept. kairosfocus
for what goes beyond being justified to having knowledge
I fail to see what it adds or how it goes beyond. They are just two words meaning the same thing. Plantinga made no case that I could see for why one is preferred over the other. One is familiar. One is not. There are several aspects of which either is used in terms of quality and quantity which I see as much more important. jerry
Jerry/499
If you replied (b.) you are either a moron, a liar or a Democrat—or some combination of the three. What occurred in Washington DC on Jan. 6 of this year was about as far from an insurrection as I am from being a spaceman living on Mars.
That's right. Just a few tourists on a day-trip to Washington, went to the Capitol just to get Mike Pence's and Nancy Pelosi's autographs. Nothing to see here. Move along now. And if you believe that, Jerry has this bridge you might be interested in buying... Seversky
PPS: S should be familiar from modern economic theory, the representative subject, which we can extend to a representative circle, i.e. a relevant community or leadership of a discipline. kairosfocus
Jerry, the example may be trivial and may seem contrived to make a point but it is clearly valid and acknowledged as such by the philosophers. KF PS: I have clearly stated the context of the usage I have adopted. Warrant, in the two Plantinga senses, [a] the placeholder for what goes beyond being justified to having knowledge, [b] the theory as excerpted in the OP that develops and summarises what is required. Plantinga's credentials to do so speak for themselves. I clip from the summary:
a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth.
kairosfocus
StephenB, you apparently have comprehension issues. Go back and read @195 Karen McMannus
About the storming of the Capitol on January 6,
If you were to stage an insurrection on the Untied States government would you, (a.) simultaneously attack the power grid at multiple points, turning out the lights across the country or (b.) dress up like a horned Star Wars character at a comic book convention and enter the Capitol building, unarmed, as if it were Halloween? You don’t have to be an experienced insurrectionist like the late Muammar Gaddafi (who was armed to the teeth during his, needless to say) to know the answer. If you replied (b.) you are either a moron, a liar or a Democrat—or some combination of the three. What occurred in Washington DC on Jan. 6 of this year was about as far from an insurrection as I am from being a spaceman living on Mars. Were those people stupid? Sure. Were they juvenile? Rather. But were they insurrectionists? You gotta be kidding. And that’s leaving out the obvious details that the only person who got killed in this so-called insurrection was a Trump supporter shot by a Capitol policeman—we still don’t know who—and that videos show other Capitol police waving the demonstrators through, including that “dangerous” Chewbacca guy, into the building as if it were a national holiday and they were rubbernecking tourists from Kansas.
https://minuteman-militia.com/2021/05/19/democrats-not-trump-supporters-are-the-true-jan-6-insurrectionists/ Then there was this. https://rumble.com/vh52u9-watch-u.s.-capitol-police-gave-protesters-ok-to-enter-capitol.html Not really appropriate here except to show lack of justification for beliefs of dire circumstances that day held by a lot of people. jerry
KF “has now been turned into a Reichstag fire event; feeding agit prop and lawfare, which are continuing to do far more damage than the riot. “ Bingo!! Vivid vividbleau
WJM claims,
The only natural law (the sense we are talking about here) is: might makes right,
WJM further clarifies what he means here,
6. One can only enact or instantiate what is right (the instantiation of their personal, preferential enjoyment, direct or abstract) to the degree they have the might (will and ability) to do so. 7. Thus, might (will and ability) makes right (the enacted or instantiated personal preference.)
WJM will probably be very surprised to learn who wholeheartedly agrees with him, and who wholeheartedly disagrees with him,
“Force does not get the best over right – but right does not always triumph over force. The truth is that force creates right.” Adolf Hitler - Nazi broadcast to occupied Belgium, October 1941 https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/nazi-germany-quotations-power-totalitarianism/ "A stronger race will oust that which has grown weak; for the vital urge, in its ultimate form, will burst asunder all the absurd chains of this so-called humane consideration for the individual and will replace it with the humanity of Nature, which wipes out what is weak in order to give place to the strong.” – Adolf Hitler - Mein Kampf - pg 248 Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
bornagain77
Objective moral truth, give me a break. If you don't feel anything, then you have no business to talk about morality. Moral truth is subjective. And I think the intent with the term "objective moral truth", is just to say that inherently subjective things are real. People have contorted the meaning of subjective to mean, made up, in the mind, or something, and then use the word objective to denote things are real. Pain is real, joy is real, eventhough there is no objective evidence for them whatsoever. The word pain does not provide any objective evidence that pain is real. Supposing someone commits some crime, like torture and kill a child, whatever. Then maybe that person's soul catches fire, and he witnesses the pain of hellfire over comitting the act. So supposedly he is incapable of denying the pain of it. It does not make the pain objective. Nothing can make the pain objective. The pain is subjective, and subjective things rule over the objective things. As plainly shown in the creationist conceptual scheme, what is subjective, creates what is objective. The subjective and spiritual decides over the objective and material. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
causes one to recognize it as a duty
Absolutely better. jerry
Jerry:--- "knowing that a certain behavior will lead to an existential result (such as survival of myself and my family) causes this behavior to become a duty " Let's tweak each other. Try this: Knowing that a certain behavior will lead to an existential result (such as survival of myself and my family) causes one to recognize it as a duty. StephenB
Concerning WJM's argument: It isn’t the duties that cause the behavior; it is the knowledge of the duties that does it. That fact that a duty exists does not have causative power. Knowing that a duty exists does have causative power. StephenB
Knowing that a duty exists does have causative power
Or maybe better?
knowing that a certain behavior will lead to an existential result (such as survival of myself and my family) causes this behavior to become a duty
jerry
--- WJM characterizing one of KFs arguments: “A certain class of behaviors are caused by duties.” The challenge: “How do we know those duties exist?” The answer: “Because of the way we all behave. The argument is circular." No. It isn't the duties that cause the behavior; it is the knowledge of the duties that do that. The fact that a duty exists does not have causative power. Knowing that a duty exists does have causative power. StephenB
Karen Mcmannus ---"It was obvious that natural law philosophies are bunk. Without direct revelation from the creator, it’s all a morass of subjective opinions and feelings." You keep changing your story. Is it objectively wrong to torture babies for fun or is it not? Do you know that it is wrong or don't you? Earlier, you said the answer is yes. Please make up your mind and give me your final answer. StephenB
I just bought the book, “Content and Justification” by Paul Boghossian. It’s a book on epistemology. In it Boghossian uses the word “warrant” or its variants about 100 times but “justification” or its variants 400 times. If one goes through the book the two words are used in the same sense sometimes in the same sentence and with the same meaning. For example:
And Kripke has interpreted Wittgenstein as holding that statements involving the notion of meaning or content have no truth conditions, but only conditions of warranted or justified use.
Who is Paul Boghossian? He is Silver Professor of Philosophy at New York University, where he is currently Chair of the Department (having also held the position for ten years from 1994-2004) This is another thing to thank kf for. I would have never found this concept of JTB (justified true belief) except for his OP’s and comments. I’ll have to see how difficult Boghossian is to understand. Using this concept it is easy to expose the lack of validity of all the critics here at UD. They have no justified opinions on ID. And most of the criticisms of Kf’s OP’s on truth and natural law are also unjustified opinions. jerry
you know the logic of thought exercises. Gettier established that justification is not adequate
He uses nonsense examples. Why? Plantinga is incomprehensible. Why? The word justification works just as well and is easily understood. The word warrant is unnecessarily confusing. I have read authors from all over the English speaking world for all my life and you are the only one using the word the way you do. Simplicity is always better than long explanations. Nobody reads the things you write let alone understands them and look at the unnecessary disorganized comments your OP’s are generating. If there is any focus, no one can find it even though you claim it. Every time you add some extra to the OP it leads people someplace else. The only reason there is 500 comments is because people are off on other issues. Murray is good for about 100 irrelevant comments/replies to his nonsense alone. My guess is that you want volume and not substance. jerry
The only natural law (the sense we are talking about here) is: might makes right, and it necessarily applies even if there is a good, just creator God. William J Murray
Here is my argument: 1. All free will choices and decisions are made out of personal preference, direct or abstract (self-evidently true). 2. All preferential choices are about managing, increasing or protecting enjoyments, direct or abstract. 3. What any individual enjoys is necessarily rooted in personal preference, direct or abstract. 4. What any individual experiences as "right action" is always, necessarily about servicing a direct or abstract preferential enjoyment. 5. Thus, "right" = in service of direct or abstract, personal, preferential enjoyment. 5. Such choices can only be enacted or instantiated via will and ability, or comprehensively, "might," in whatever form the ability takes (convincing people, sheer physical power, cunning, etc.) 6. One can only enact or instantiate what is right (the instantiation of their personal, preferential enjoyment, direct or abstract) to the degree they have the might (will and ability) to do so. 7. Thus, might (will and ability) makes right (the enacted or instantiated personal preference.) Lawless oligarchies are the naturally occurring governmental system because all humans are necessarily, logically, operating under "might makes right." Even if we assume there is a moral, creator God, that God used its might to instantiate that which it preferred, thus existential might makes right. Even those like KF who argue for a system of duties and rights they claim can be recognized as existential are using their might, their will and whatever ability they have to convince or coerce other people, to enact and instantiate a situation they would prefer and enjoy more than the alternatives. The social and governmental history of the world can be easily and directly understood as the ebb and flow of the distributions of might (physical, collective, ideological, etc.) and preferences of those with sufficient might at any given time, to enact systems they personally, preferentially find more enjoyable. William J Murray
WJM, your repetition, yet again, of various already corrected vfallacies does not render them sound. Do you not notice that by asserting [strawmannishly] that certain things are so you appeal to the normative power of duty to truth? That, in reasoning therefrom to [erroneous] conclusions, you appeal to the binding force of logic, warrant and prudence? And more? In short yet again objectors show the inescapable legitimate authority of the first duties, so their truth and self evidence. KF kairosfocus
KM,
It was obvious that natural law philosophies are bunk. Without direct revelation from the creator, it’s all a morass of subjective opinions and feelings.
Sez who? Do you see the appeal to truth you just made on your own authority? Do you run the legal presses to that KM's word -- per legal positivism -- without reference to principles of justice -- is what law is and that's all? Do you not see how that mentality opens up lawless, nihilistic oligarchy? Which is precisely what the ghosts of 800+ millions of our living posterity torn from the womb moan out? On the contrary, your objection yet again seeks normative force by appealing to the authority of what it would overthrow. The Ciceronian first duties of reason, framing law as "highest reason." KF kairosfocus
Vivid, precisely correct and unfortunately illustrative of the breakdown we are seeing. The incident, a fairly minor protest that in parts became riot [by comparison with the continent-wide wave we saw in months leading up to the US Election], has now been turned into a Reichstag fire event; feeding agit prop and lawfare, which are continuing to do far more damage than the riot. I am observing the play-out of the 4th gen civil war in aftermath of McFaul Colour revolution push. Sad, but thenwhen stabilising buttresses of a constitutional democracy are undermined, it becomes utterly unstable. KF kairosfocus
Paige:
according to KF, his is the only worldview with justified warrant. When diversity of opinions is brought up by VL he counters with ‘there can be no warranted diversity from 2+2=4’. And you call my comments ridiculous and irrelevant. Kf is most definitely interested in ideas. But only if they agree with his worldview. All others are dangerous.
FYI, warrant is not opinion. Especially, when self-evident truths are on the table, with the stunning scene in 1984 where Winston Smith is broken through imposition of nihilistic power to force lying that 2 + 2 is whatever the Party wishes as the as yet un-exorcised ghost that haunts the history of the past 100 years. You will note that you keep on constructing a strawman caricature, likely driven by indoctrination and animosity that sets up scapegoats. Ultimately, on far too much bloody history, for slaughter. Before you continue to project your evident cognitive dissonance to the despised other, kindly look in a mirror. The corrective reality is, error exists, E. Try to deny it, ~E, this means, it is error to assert E. thus, E is necessarily, undeniably correct. We have here a self-evident, humbling first truth. To utter certainty, E shows by example that truth exists, and truth that can be believed and warranted to undeniable certainty. Objective, even self-evident. Thus, strong form, certain, absolute knowledge exists, and a fortiori, weak form knowledge as captioned: warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Where, credibly true is a direct sign that such a weak form claim -- common in science -- is open to correction. Both being, objective knowledge beyond the perceptions or opinions of a given representative subject or circle of subjects. All worldviews, therefore, that commit themselves to the radical relativity of knowledge or to its utter subjectivity -- their name is Legion -- are decisively falsified by Josiah Royce's proposition. Of course, perforce, error exists and self evident propositions (where necessity of truth and absurdity of denial are readily seen on competent inspection) are never enough to frame a full worldview across metaphysics, logic, epistemology, axiology, political philosophy etc. Further, as I have also noted any number of times -- contrary to your strawman scapegoat -- all significant worldviews bristle with difficulties. (How can it be otherwise, philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, ultimate questions.) So, the pivotal method of philosophy . . . again as noted ever so many times [see here in a lecture course] . . . is comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory balance and power. Diversity is inevitable, but is accountable before key issues. Much of the contention we see traces to the intersection of ethics and epistemology, for many have been taught that to claim that there are objective moral truths is tantamount to dangerous, oppressive bigotry. In reality, the claim that there are no objective moral truths is itself a claimed objective truth on morality and it is self-defeating. There are knowable, objective moral truths, and indeed the Ciceronian first duties are inescapable, inescapably true, self-evident. That is good as it allows us to frame civil law, government and community life on free responsible reason not imposition of raw power opening the door to nihilism. An application of those is yardstick 1 on moral truth: it is self evidently wrong, evil, wicked, depraved, perverse, reprobate . . . to kidnap, bind, sexually, indecently assault and torture a young child, resulting in murder. Those who deny simply show themselves monstrous, so those clinging to relativism and subjectivism evade the matter and retreat behind a squid ink cloud of emotivism. In fact, though emotive appeals can be persuasive, they are no stronger than the warrant for the underlying perceptions, expectations, assumptions, attitudes. KF kairosfocus
SB @450: I'm talking specifically about KF's oft-repeated claim that our appeals to duty are manifestly evident in our behaviors. He does have other arguments. 1. The argument from behaviors is circular. 2. The argument from existential unavoidables conflates those things with duties to those things 3. The argument from existential conscience is an "all swans are white" argument with counterfactuals in evidence. 4. The argument for conscience and moral duties from "common human experience" is basically just rhetorical 5. The argument about what would result if we do not have such duties and attend them is an appeal to consequences or emotion. The only way to properly argue for existential moral duties is to show them as self-evident, but the contrary does not result represent an absurdity, so that argument fails. That doesn't mean such duties do not exist; it just means all the arguments presented here fail to establish duties as existential things. The better argument is that the best way forward for society is to assume such duties exist. That may or may not be true, depending on what one means by "best" and whose interests that direction serves. There's a reason that the default governmental systems of the world (even if promoted as something else) is some version of lawless oligarchy. That reason is: duties are not fundamental to human nature. Something else is. Something actually self-evidently true that naturally manifests in groups of people as lawless oligarchies. William J Murray
Jerry, you know the logic of thought exercises. Gettier established that justification is not adequate to provide reliable warrant, and since then to date, the field of epistemology has seen a ferment. That's a simple, readily confirmed fact. Plantinga intervened by using a related but distinct term, warrant, to act as place holder for whatever would fill the bill. He then provided a three volume exploration, of which the key summary is in the OP. It is arguable that he gives an excellent theory of warrant towards the spectrum of certainty in knowledge, from soft form to hard, complete with recognising that there are opinions beyond knowledge. That is a major, highly relevant achievement and it is unfair and ill advised to try to dismiss it as what is an onomatopoeia for turkey gobbling. There is a place for short copy, there is a place for long [which actually sells far better], there is a place for analysis and for reasonable exposition. KF kairosfocus
Jerry said:
Murray is on record that survival isn’t as important as enjoyment. An incredibly stupid statement to go along with his other stupid ideas.
Where is that in the record, exactly? I think I most likely said something along the lines that when life becomes intolerably unenjoyable in both the direct and abstract sense, people often commit suicide. So, yes, for them, enjoyment was more important than survival William J Murray
VL “Hmmm.What about the storming of the Capitol on January 6, during which people were injured and killed” The only one I know of that was killed was a Trump supporter shot by an unknown Capitol police person. Three other Trump supporters died but were not killed. Vivid. vividbleau
JVL:
There have been doctors who have been threatened and killed because they support abortion. Who did that threatening and those killings?
Doctors supporting murder means they are abandoning their oath. Perhaps the threats and deaths for enabling murder will get them to stop doing so. Clearly they can't be reasoned with and choose to ignore science. Ignoring science has consequences, especially if it means the intentional killing of our most vulnerable. It has been said that you judge a society by how they treat their most vulnerable. We allow ours to be killed in huge numbers. How is that not a sign for our societal demise? ET
Jerry: It was obvious that few knew how to define it and use it correctly which led to illustrating it in p’s and q’s. It was obvious that natural law philosophies are bunk. Without direct revelation from the creator, it's all a morass of subjective opinions and feelings. Karen McMannus
Just as I figured
            😟 jerry
No problem. I certainly don't expect everyone to keep track of the players without a scorecard. Viola Lee
My apologies VL. I had mis-remembered your previous statements. But I agree that talking to some people is useless. paige
Thanks for the clarification Paige, but actually, I've stated that I'm not a materialist. I am an atheist in that I don't think any of the Gods posited by any religion actually exist. But I agree with Sandy that talking to some people is useless. Viola Lee
Sandy
I realized that I have better things to do…talking with atheists is useless.
VL has stated repeatedly that she is not an atheist. But I guess it is easier to falsely apply a label to someone and dismiss them rather than address their comments. paige
Right reasoning was discussed extensively on a thread 3 months ago on natural law. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/laws/should-we-recognise-that-laws-of-nature-extend-to-laws-of-our-human-nature-which-would-then-frame-civil-law/#comment-724570 It was obvious that few knew how to define it and use it correctly which led to illustrating it in p’s and q’s. jerry
Jerry, Just as I figured. Karen McMannus
Start with your assumptions and rules, and use “right reason” to the come to the “right” conclusion.
Thank you, you have validated the use of right reasoning by proffering an absurd situation. Any more attempted gotcha’s? jerry
Jerry: If a man starts with correct assumptions... Yeah, those. What are they specifically? Please demonstrate them using the Trolley Problem. Start with your assumptions and rules, and use "right reason" to the come to the "right" conclusion. Show your work. For extra fun, also do it assuming the Singleton is your own young child. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem Karen McMannus
JVL: There have been doctors who have been threatened and killed because they support abortion. Who did that threatening and those killings? Exceptionally rare. Karen McMannus
Viola Lee Hmmm.What about the storming of the Capitol on January 6, during which people were injured and killed. And homosexuals and transgender people have been injured and killed. So, re 462, I think one can be worried: there are extreme people in all groups, Christian and otherwise.
JVL There have been doctors who have been threatened and killed because they support abortion. Who did that threatening and those killings?
I realized that I have better things to do...talking with atheists is useless. Sandy
Hmmm.What about the storming of the Capitol on January 6, during which people were injured and killed. And homosexuals and transgender people have been injured and killed. So, re 462, I think one can be worried: there are extreme people in all groups, Christian and otherwise. Viola Lee
. What are the premises of right reasoning?
Right reasoning or the systematic study of valid reference.
Right Reasoning P -> q. If p is true, q is true. Example of Right Reasoning. If p is false or unknown p still implies q and logic is correct but not Right Reasoning. q could still be true but not logically true. It could also be false. Right or correct logical reasoning is not necessarily Right Reasoning.
If a man starts with correct assumptions, he may be a good logician and a good citizen, a wise man, a successful figure. If he starts with false assumptions, he may be an equally good logician and a bankrupt, a criminal, a raving lunatic. The first is right reason, the second is not. The idea of “right reason” is important in the concept of natural law. It suggests that reason can operate rightly or wrongly. Reason operates rightly when it is discerning the truth and when it is figuring out how matters that are open to choice are to be selected in such a way as to achieve a kind of harmony. The “reason” mentioned here is not just the power to form concepts or to take part in logical argumentation, but right reason, a specifically moral power by which human beings can differentiate good and bad and can discern what is in harmony with human nature and what violates human nature. right reason: In natural law theory, the name for human reason operating well to discover the true natures of things and the norms that flow from the ends intrinsic to those natures; hence, a moral power by which human individuals can discern right from wrong, good from bad.
jerry
Sandy: Don’t worry christians don’t kill homosexuals or transgenders and live very peacefully with others ,don’t block roads and don’t set on fire shops and businesses like black live matter or antifa retards. There have been doctors who have been threatened and killed because they support abortion. Who did that threatening and those killings? JVL
Jerry: It’s impossible to provide everyone the same level of healthcare. It depends on what you mean by 'level'. In the UK 'everyone' has access to the basic healthcare system for no extra cost. While it is true that some authorities cover some procedures and interventions while other don't there is still a large group of things that are covered for everyone in the UK. Perhaps you'd like to spend some time being a bit more specific in your analyses instead of just making very broad and general statements. What can be done is to provide a minimum level for everyone. How is that not 'the same level'? Perhaps you could provide an example of the difference between 'same' level and 'minimum level for everyone'? JVL
Sandy says "we have to live with diversity" = "accepting all views as equal." Those are not equivalent at all. Viola Lee
Viola Lee I don’t think I said anything about accepting all views as true.
Yes you said.
but the truth is we have to live with diversity
=accepting all views as equal ,"not dare" to criticize other point of view in the name of a false "love" . Progressive dogma. You play the role of wise loving actor but in reality is only hypocrisy . Unity in falsehood is worse thing made in the name of a false love. :) Don't worry christians don't kill homosexuals or transgenders and live very peacefully with others ,don't block roads and don't set on fire shops and businesses like black live matter or antifa retards. You give advices to wrong persons. Go talk with progressives. They will listen to you. Not. Sandy
Jerry: To right reasoning to determine how both can survive/flourish. What are the premises of right reasoning? Karen McMannus
Where is my duty?
To right reasoning to determine how both can survive/flourish. jerry
Jerry: Nature of humans => survival => behaviors necessary for survival (called duties). Otherwise there isn’t survival... Nature of humans => flourishing => behaviors necessary for flourishing (called duties). Otherwise there isn’t flourishing. What if your survival/flourishing interferes with mine? Where is my duty? Karen McMannus
In looking up the quote of Cicero provided by StephenB I came across the following web page. https://peped.org/philosophicalinvestigations/extract-the-four-laws-of-aquinas/ In it natural law is first attributed to Sophocles in his play Antigone then to Aristotle and finally to Cicero. These ideas were codified by Aquinas in the 13th century.
Sophocles who, in Antigone, wrote first about an immutable and eternal law. In the play, Antigone testifies to Creon that the principles of natural law are rooted in Nature and knowable by the power of reason. These laws are not for now or for yesterday, they are alive forever; and no one knows when they were shown to us first
there is in nature a common principle of the just and unjust that all people in some way divine [i.e., discern], even if they have no association or commerce with each other.” (Aristotle - On Rhetoric I:13:102)
Three centuries later, the Roman orator and statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero articulated the concept of natural law more forcibly. In his Laws, Cicero described “Law” as “the highest reason, implanted in Nature, which commands what ought to be done and forbids the opposite” . In addition, Cicero noted that “right is based, not upon men’s opinions, but upon Nature”
In Question 94 of the Prima secundae of his Summa theologiae (I.ii), Aquinas asserted the concept of an eternal law which provides the road map for all ethics and ethical conduct. This eternal law, Aquinas reasoned, is God’s device to govern the entire community of the universe toward the common good. The divine law, as represented for example in the Ten Commandments, makes eternal law more concrete and knowable. Natural law then transforms the laws emanating from the realm of the supernatural, making them knowable “in the hearts of human beings” and instruct them “to do good and avoid evil.” Lastly, human law, which translates natural law into concrete norms governing particular peoples and nations.is the most concrete and specific application of eternal law in the realm of the nature.
This was all covered in the Great Courses series on natural law which also included some additional Greeks between Aristotle and Cicero as well as philosophers after Aquinas. All this to be replaced by the wisdom of some of our commenters in 2021. jerry
let’s pick universal health care
What you presented has nothing to do with universal health care. You are pointing to expensive and inefficient health care in the US not the lack of universal health care. What you are implying by your choice of links and statistics is that you believe there should be cheaper and more effective health care. That is a completely different issue. It’s impossible to provide everyone the same level of healthcare. It’s never been done in the history of the world. What can be done is to provide a minimum level for everyone. That’s what happening. This minimum level is astronomically higher than it was 50 years ago and increasing every year. So we have universal healthcare. jerry
If you feel that way, and I can understand why you would, I suggest that you forget about Plantinga, read further, and go straight to Cicero, whom KF also cites?
I think you do not understand everything that’s going on. I completely support most of Kf’s conclusions on natural law, truth and the state of our world. My contention is with the word “warrant” and its use. I prefer the word “justify” instead. Interesting, your quote from Cicero is actually clearer than what’s been presented so far. Basically Kf is being attacked/ridiculed for his extremely hard to understand OP’s which no one understands. The attacks also include people expressing opinions as if they were equally true when in fact they are no more than unsubstantiated opinions. jerry
Jerry, OK, let's pick universal health care amongst comparable countries. 1) The US has the lowest life expectancy of comparable countries. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#item-le_life-expectancy-at-birth-in-years-2017_dec-2019-update 2) US spends twice as much as comparable countries on health care. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/archive/?_sft_category=spending 3)US has the third fewest acute health care beds per capita of comparable countries. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-acute-care-hospital-beds-per-1000-population-2017 4) US has the highest mortality rate of comparable countries. 5) The US has the highest disease burden of comparable countries. Comparable countries have universal health care. 6) The US has the highest rate of amenable mortality rate of comparable countries. 7) The US has the highest rate of maternal deaths of comparable countries. 8) US has highest rate of medical, medication and lab errors of comparable countries. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-overall-age-adjusted-mortality-rate-per-100000-population-1980-2017 9) US has highest infant mortality rates of comparable countries. https://www.americashealthrankings.org/learn/reports/2018-annual-report/findings-international-comparison But it's not all bad news. The US has better recovery rates for heart attacks and strokes. paige
Jerry: --- "I started out analyzing Plantinga but gave up when it became incomprehensible. I actually posted my analysis of Plantinga’s presentation on another UD OP you wrote a year or two ago. After awhile I became disillusioned with Plantinga because of his unintelligible statements. " If you feel that way, and I can understand why you would, I suggest that you forget about Plantinga, read further, and go straight to Cicero, whom KF also cites? . . . “Law (say [“many learned men”]) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice." That statement is about as clear, intelligible, and comprehensible as it gets. StephenB
WJM: --- "KF’s argument about duties in a nutshell: “A certain class of behaviors are caused by duties.” The challenge: “How do we know those duties exist?” The answer: “Because of the way we all behave. Anyone see anything wrong with that argument?" The only thing wrong here is your understanding of the argument. Here is the way it works: We have moral duties because the moral law tells us what we ought or ought not to do. If it is wrong to torture babies for fun, it follows as night follows day that we are duty bound to refrain from such behavior. StephenB
. Please think again.
Would gibberish do? His examples are extremely contrived. Why? I started out analyzing Plantinga but gave up when it became incomprehensible. I actually posted my analysis of Plantinga’s presentation on another UD OP you wrote a year or two ago. After awhile I became disillusioned with Plantinga because of his unintelligible statements. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/atheisms-problem-of-warrant/#comment-728552 jerry
If you point out one of my unjustified opinions,
There are so many. I believe I listed them above. Diversity/multiculturalism is one. Universal health care is another. Calling someone a racist is another. When I have time I will list others but I have a hard time remembering anything you have said that is justified.
I thought that I made it clear that many of my comments are just opinion. As are most comments by other people.
True, but some have thought it out better and some have better sources of information which often means their comments are more likely to be better justified. Not a guarantee but it increases odds. jerry
Jerry (& attn VL), that you perceive Gettier and Plantinga as speaking "Unclear, wordy jargon" is revealing and not in favour of your judgement. Please think again. KF kairosfocus
WJM’s summary
also gobbledygook Nature of humans => survival => behaviors necessary for survival (called duties). Otherwise there isn’t survival. Murray is on record that survival isn’t as important as enjoyment. An incredibly stupid statement to go along with his other stupid ideas. Nature of humans => flourishing => behaviors necessary for flourishing (called duties). Otherwise there isn’t flourishing. I like the word flourishing but substitute what you want that means same thing. jerry
WJM
Anyone see what’s wrong with that argument?
C = 2 x pi x R ? :) paige
Jerry
Yes, when they are unjustified. Many are just opinions without foundation.
I thought that I made it clear that many of my comments are just opinion. As are most comments by other people.
You obviously don’t like this criticism.
I am fine with criticism. What I don't like is rudeness and condescension.
One way to counteract this criticism is to justify your opinions with evidence and logic.
If you point out one of my unjustified opinions, I will try to provide justification and evidence. But, just a word of caution, sometimes an opinion is just an opinion. If that is the case for the one you point out, I will let you know if this is the case. paige
I agree about Jerry's point about gobbledygook at 441 and WJM's summary of KF's argument at 442. Re the gobbledygook: all the words in Plantiga's bolded statement in the OP are entirely unspecified: how do we judge if one's "cognitive faculties [are] functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction)? How do we know that the person is " in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties", whatever that means? How do we know that one's "design plan is successfully aimed at truth", when this latter is exactly the thing we are trying to determine? Language like that really says nothing of practical value. Viola Lee
KF's argument about duties in a nutshell: "A certain class of behaviors are caused by duties." The challenge: "How do we know those duties exist?" The answer: "Because of the way we all behave." Anyone see what's wrong with that argument? William J Murray
Gettier in 1963 showed
And I tried understanding both Gettier and Plantinga's criticism and called both gobbledygook. If anyone disagrees with me, fine, but I showed it to another person I trust, and they too thought the criticism was strained at best. So I'll stick with justify. It is a word easily understood where warrant is obscure at best. jerry
Jerry, for record, Gettier in 1963 showed -- to the satisfaction of the professional philosophers -- that it was possible to be justified regarding a true belief but fail to have knowledge. Over the next couple of decades, Plantinga provided a filler term, warrant [which is related] to specify the gap. He proceeded to lay out a theory of what sound warrant is, as is excerpted in the OP. Our preferences cannot change that bit of the history of ideas. KF kairosfocus
And you call my comments ridiculous and irrelevant.
Yes, when they are unjustified. Many are just opinions without foundation. You obviously don't like this criticism. One way to counteract this criticism is to justify your opinions with evidence and logic. jerry
you just showed that the problem is not being convoluted, or being pedantic or laying out detailed exposition, but that there are crooked yardsticks warping thought.
No, I believe it is all the above. If your OP's were not convoluted and overly detailed and written in a simple form, the crooked yardsticks warping thought would stand out. As it is, the lack of right reasoning gets hidden in the criticism of the lack of clarity of your OP's. jerry
Jerry
May 19, 2021 at 7:39 am I believe what Kf is trying to say is that there is a diversity of opinion/beliefs. But most of these opinions/beliefs are not justified. (He likes to use the word “warrant”, I don’t and prefer “justified”.)
And, according to KF, his is the only worldview with justified warrant. When diversity of opinions is brought up by VL he counters with ‘there can be no warranted diversity from 2+2=4’. And you call my comments ridiculous and irrelevant.
Kf is most definitely interested in ideas.
But only if they agree with his worldview. All others are dangerous. paige
F/N: Observe, the emergence of the destructive trifecta rhetorical pattern. Red herring distractors led away to strawmen, soaked in ad homs then set alight to cloud, confuse, polarise and poison atmosphere for discussion. Such a pattern reflects want of substance on merits. And no, not everything can be settled by a short snippet of text or an image plus a slogan. Some things require a fair degree of analysis, with step by step thinking. Of course, analysis is at a steep discount today, especially when tied to core principles. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, you just showed that the problem is not being convoluted, or being pedantic or laying out detailed exposition, but that there are crooked yardsticks warping thought. KF kairosfocus
KF, are you aware that it is the movie Groundhog Day being referred to? Viola Lee
VL, your resort to ridicule shows the precise problem of the crooked yardstick at work. You chose a capital example of how we correct crooked thinking as a target for ridicule. Let's roll the tape:
[VL, 394:] I’ll bet KF’s next OP contains the plumb bob, or the red ball, or any one of a number of other pictures again! Reading KF’s posts certainly has a Groundhog Day flavor.
Invited inference, no substance of greater moment than a bit of folklore about an early spring. By their targets shall ye know them. You obviously took no more time to reflect on first principles of reason and why an illustration by a red ball on the table could have any compelling force. Likewise, how a plumb bob can help us understand that self-evident truth exists and corrects crooked standards of thought. With all due respect, what you chose to highlight for obvious contempt-laced ridicule inadvertently exposed the shallowness of the thinking you have been using. This extends to the case of knowledge, knowledge of duty, warrant and Ciceronian first duties. Please think again. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
WJM, kindly scroll up and view what was said. The mockery is there and it needs to be called out.
That you don't understand that only Viola (or whomever made the comment you are referring to) can say whether or not he/she was mocking you is mind-blowing. William J Murray
which of these two you think I was doing: 1. dismissing the principles of right reason, or 2. commenting on the repetitiveness of KF’s posts
Both. When you believe in unjustified opinions, you are not using right reason. So is right reason something that one pulls out/endorses when it is convenient?
For the record, I have never, ever questioned the law of identity or the other laws of logic.
Now that is disingenuous because you know that the real objective of Kf's OP's and comments are something else. He is using these to reach his conclusions. I am on record in several places that Kf is convoluted and unclear in how he reaches his conclusions and that is self defeating. But I am on record as agreeing with his conclusions in most cases. jerry
At 428, Jerry added, "But are the ideas Kf espouses the real objective of the ridicule?" For the record, I have never, ever questioned the law of identity or the other laws of logic. Viola Lee
I have tried to write about ideas. However right now I am writing about how KF constantly misrepresents me. Go back and read what asauber wrote at 388 and what I wrote at 394 and let me know which of these two you think I was doing: 1. dismissing the principles of right reason, or 2. commenting on the repetitiveness of KF's posts Viola Lee
No, KF, I am ridiculing you
Now we don’t have mind reading. Is all the verbiage here about ideas or about a particular individual? Kf is most definitely interested in ideas. But are the ideas Kf espouses the real objective of the ridicule? jerry
Let me be more blunt: Kf writes,
Above you tried to ridicule the first principles of right reason, their self-evidence and how that corrects warped crooked yardstick thinking, which is as incoherent as you can get.
No, KF, I am ridiculing you, not the principles of right reason. Viola Lee
I believe what Kf is trying to say is that there is a diversity of opinion/beliefs. But most of these opinions/beliefs are not justified. (He likes to use the word “warrant”, I don’t and prefer “justified”.) So is this diversity good? Especially when there is no justification/warrant for most of it. Some opinions/beliefs have more justification than others. Some a lot more. Some have very little if any. What’s extremely potentially harmful is when a society become unanimous in an unjustified belief so becomes lock-stepped in a failed belief. There is almost certainly nothing good to come from it. So to prevent the potential chaos, a society should use the rules of right reasoning to determine what is justified and what is not. In fact to prevent the chaos, we have a duty to do so. This duty include several obligations such as ........ Aside: but extremely important- some beliefs are essentially harmless even if unjustified while other unjustified beliefs could lead to anarchy. jerry
WJM, kindly scroll up and view what was said. The mockery is there and it needs to be called out. KF kairosfocus
KF said:
Above you tried to ridicule the first principles of right reason, their self-evidence and how that corrects warped crooked yardstick thinking, which is as incoherent as you can get. You confirm that you have not got a leg to stand on. KF
Because KF is a mind reader, Viola. He knows what you're actually doing, your actual motivations and reasons, better than you ever could. William J Murray
VL, you are distracting. Above you tried to ridicule the first principles of right reason, their self-evidence and how that corrects warped crooked yardstick thinking, which is as incoherent as you can get. You confirm that you have not got a leg to stand on. I don't blame you for that status in the first instance, you have absorbed dominant messages in our culture at the moment. It so happens that these messages, backed by huge power, are utterly incoherent. And it is not something to be stigmatised, to point out such incoherence. That you chose to attack Sandy and I for pointing out the incoherence of your views, rather than correcting your errors, is not good, it does not commend you. KF kairosfocus
"I am ultimately the source and cause of everything I experience" lol Andrew asauber
Asauber said:
Well, under your perspective of being imposed upon, you are still being imposed upon by Everything But the Christian God… the universe, your environment, your genetics, your beliefs, everyone and everything around you.
I was making observations about the entailments and implications of the premise of the "Christian God" worldview. Under that worldview, it's all coercion from the start. Under my worldview, there is absolutely no coercion whatsoever, because I am ultimately the source and cause of everything I experience, including when, where, to whom and under what conditions I was born; what "limitations" I have at any given time, and everything I experience in this life and beyond, with infinite variety and potential at my disposal. I am free to think, do, and experience whatever I want, any time I want. I can leave this world entirely any time I want, and go to any world I might prefer. It's all up to me. William J Murray
Thanks to WJM at 413 for saying the obvious about something I wrote. I'll quote at length, and bold the important part:
Viola stated an empirical fact, that diversity of beliefs exist in the population. Viola then made the observation that if a diversity of beliefs exist in the population, we have to live with that. Under charitable interpretation, one would assume this means: unless we commit suicide or intend on eliminating that diversity in some manner, then we have to find a way to live with it. There’s nothing incoherent or self-defeating whatsoever in that. It’s necessarily true given the empirical fact premise. Sandy, SB and KF seem so intent on finding “self-defeating incoherence” in everything people say here that they have apparently stopped even trying to understand other people (not that they ever really tried much in the first place) and have suspended “charitable interpretation.”
Exactly. Here's another example. Above I was complaining and making a bit of fun about how repetitive KF's OPs are, and how he uses the same diagrams over and over and over. I happened to mention as an example the red ball. So does KF get the point? Not a bit. He responds at 410:
You object to metaphors while failing to realise that self-evidence is real and corrects warped thinking. No wonder your next objection is to a red ball A, distinct from rest of world ~A, so W = {A|~A} which then allows us to see law of identity, and its close corollaries non contradiction and excluded middle. A is itself i/l/o its coherent core characteristics, a red ball vs the impossibility of a square circle. The world W is such that any x in W must be in A or else not A, not both nor neither. That’s LNC, A or else not A, LEM not both nor neither. In short you have managed to try to dismiss the core first principles of right reason.
That is ludicrous. I was not objecting to metaphors and I was not dismissing the laws of logic. I was pointing out that KF says the same things over and over again without, as WJM points out, making any attempt to understand other people. Says WJM, "It’s kind of like a didactic computer program that access vast information but always outputs the same essential thing, over and over and over, regardless of the input, regardless of the meaning of the input." His posts today in response to things I wrote yesterday amply illustrate these flaws in how KF responds to other people who attempt to have discussions with him. Viola Lee
KF:
WJM, you try to attack the man rather than deal with the issue.
No, I'm not attacking you. You're interpreting my observations about your behavior here as "attacking" you. I've already dealt with what you call "the" issues, which are really just your issues and how you interpret the world under your worldview. Those issues simply do not exist in my worldview. William J Murray
WJM, Well, under your perspective of being imposed upon, you are still being imposed upon by Everything But the Christian God... the universe, your environment, your genetics, your beliefs, everyone and everything around you. Pick Anything and Everything. The impositions are still there. So I think your special observation/complaint that the Christian God is imposing is just your round about way of having someone to blame for your predicament. Andrew asauber
WJM, you try to attack the man rather than deal with the issue. That's usually a sign that you do not have the case on the merits. As for the matter, I described how we must be if we are to have ability to reason and warrant credible knowledge or to love. A programmed robot cannot love, an act of free choice. The rest follows from that, not from your notion that you can brand my worldview with a scarlet C then dismiss whatever I say that you don't like as tracing to that. Did you notice that -- Ciceronian first duties of reason -- I am explicitly acknowledging the priority of a pagan stoic Roman statesman and author, Cicero? One whose worldview is quite alien to mine? As did Paul before me by direct implication? That was already pointed out above; but of course it has been overlooked as to significance. KF PS: See this discussion of Darwin's horrid doubt, monkey mind comment: https://medium.com/science-and-philosophy/darwins-horrid-doubt-why-monkey-brains-troubled-the-great-man-of-science-e77c954e9019 kairosfocus
KF @415: Thanks for demonstrating once again exactly what I stated about you in 414. You see everyone and what everyone says strictly in terms of your worldview, and insist that what they mean and what their motivations are for saying what they say is necessarily how you interpret it, period. You're interacting here like a programmed automaton. William J Murray
WJM, diversity is a fact contingent on freedom thus possibility of intellect and virtues starting with love. The strawman caricature of someone objecting to diversity is tantamount to objecting to the basis for mindedness, love, virtue, freedom coeval with humanity. The only one to raise objections to that is you. I took time to correct that, where the next issue is that if we are free how will we be rightly guided? The answer is, conscience-enlightened mind working to truth including truths of duty i/l/o first principles of reason. Thus, the Ciceronian first duties. Where, ought is not is, the issue is to be willing to be rightly guided on duty. To object to moral error, or to correct it i/l/o self evident first truths on duty RESPECTS freedom, thus diversity, but calls for it to be rightly used. Which seems to be the real problem, some wish for favoured errors, vices, perversities, agendas that cannot stand the test of Ciceronian highest reason, to be given "equal" recognition with what is true and right, and wish to -- unjustly -- stigmatise those who dare to point out the error by implying that correction is bigotry. That stigmatising is utterly warped, crooked yardstick thinking. KF kairosfocus
I don’t deny that he is a very smart person.
Depends on how you define "smart." KF holds in his mind a vast amount of memorized information. He has selected and organized that information to fit in with and support his worldview arguments. However, KF also seems to be incapable of understanding anything except in terms of his own worldview system, or even making a rudimentary effort in that regard. It's all about interpreting according to, defending and promoting his worldview, period. No exceptions, not even for the sake of argument. It's kind of like a didactic computer program that access vast information but always outputs the same essential thing, over and over and over, regardless of the input, regardless of the meaning of the input. William J Murray
Sandy said:
VL , you promote one view only,one single position(“we have to live with diversity”) blaming those(you are included) who have one view only( who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable) You didn’t realize you were talking about yourself and debunked yourself.
KF agreed. This is nonsense. Viola stated an empirical fact, that diversity of beliefs exist in the population. Viola then made the observation that if a diversity of beliefs exist in the population, we have to live with that. Under charitable interpretation, one would assume this means: unless we commit suicide or intend on eliminating that diversity in some manner, then we have to find a way to live with it. There's nothing incoherent or self-defeating whatsoever in that. It's necessarily true given the empirical fact premise. Sandy, SB and KF seem so intent on finding "self-defeating incoherence" in everything people say here that they have apparently stopped even trying to understand other people (not that they ever really tried much in the first place) and have suspended "charitable interpretation." William J Murray
F/N: Next stop, DV, Big-S Science and appeals to official consensus i/l/o the logic of the pessimistic induction and what warrant entails. Side helpings on degrees of warrant, open mindedness and tolerance/diversity. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, the attritional grinding up continues. Here we see one of our inveterate objectors trying to deride the first principles of reason. You can't make this up, no editor would publish a novel like this. Here we see the utter failure of western education on display. KF kairosfocus
VL, 394:
I’ll bet KF’s next OP contains the plumb bob, or the red ball, or any one of a number of other pictures again!
Plumb line -- naturally straight and upright, a metaphor for self-evident. Thus, corrective of warped thinking, symbolised by crooked yardsticks. You object to metaphors while failing to realise that self-evidence is real and corrects warped thinking. No wonder your next objection is to a red ball A, distinct from rest of world ~A, so W = {A|~A} which then allows us to see law of identity, and its close corollaries non contradiction and excluded middle. A is itself i/l/o its coherent core characteristics, a red ball vs the impossibility of a square circle. The world W is such that any x in W must be in A or else not A, not both nor neither. That's LNC, A or else not A, LEM not both nor neither. In short you have managed to try to dismiss the core first principles of right reason. The crooked yardstick has exposed itself by comparison with a plumb line. I suggest, go to a shop, buy a nice bright red child's ball, and stick a bit of tape marked A on it. Put it on a table, mark that not A, consider you are in not A, as is the floor, the door, the wider world. Then, please rethink your worldview from the ground up, it is fatally warped, cracked, broken and bankrupt. KF KF kairosfocus
Sandy, 378:
VL , you promote one view only,one single position(“we have to live with diversity”) blaming those(you are included) who have one view only( who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable) You didn’t realize you were talking about yourself and debunked yourself.
Correct. Unfortunately, incoherence frustrates recognising that it is self-defeating. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, we are having a battle of intellectual attrition, grinding up the talking points and arguments advanced by the jacobins and cretanists. It is clear that they have no coherent theory of justifying their opinions much less warranting them. They are following dominant cultural agendas that are incoherent, necessarily false and anticivilisational. The utter bankruptcy needs to be seen plainly for what it is. KF kairosfocus
Paige, kindly note the just above. KF kairosfocus
VL, let's start with, Mr Smith, what is 2 + 2? Is "diversity" acceptable in this case, from 1984? (The Satirical, politically correct answer is, whatever the Party needs at the moment.) In short, your talking points on "diversity" DO NOT APPLY TO WARRANTED, CREDIBLY TRUE KNOWLEDGE WHERE A RELIABLE INTELLECTUAL FACULTY HAS ACTED IN ACCORD WITH ITS EVIDENT PURPOSE OF TRUTH IN AN APPROPRIATE ENVIRONMENT. So, your comments about diversity amount to denial of objective truth. Probably not in general, I am pretty sure you would not stand in front of a Math class to argue 2 + 3 = "diversity". Though, there are now radicals pushing to butcher school math. Likewise, I am pretty sure you will want to "follow the Science" on several topics where there is actually a difference of experts, with warrant for the not so politically correct answer. (RW, I am looking at a case on Ivermectin, the evidence vs the follow science rhetoric of officialdom, including lab coat clad officialdom. A similar case obtains for HCQ early in the CV19 disease process. Likewise, of course, you are here to object to design theory, regardless of the fact that there is just one empirically identified cause of FSCO/I.) What is really going on is that you are denying objectivity to moral duty. You and others have been challenged with a RW case of kidnapping and sexual torture of a young child, resulting in murder. The evasions and distractions on this yardstick case over years at UD speak for themselves. Cognitive dissonance leading to confession by projection to the despised other. To sustain that, you are compelled to dismiss the self-evident reality of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even though in every argument you make, you expect US to implicitly cede the authority and so truth of those duties. You demonstrate their inescapability, which is tantamount to their self-evident truth. It is in that context that I have raised the core challenge of the OP, warrant. For, you obviously imagine your views are correct, and knowable, i.e. objective. Note:
[VL to Paige in the forum, 367:] I cherish some parts of diversity and some I don’t, but the truth is we have to live with diversity– both the good and bad parts [--> how do we judge good/bad?] . Ironically, one of the diverse views that we have to live with is of those who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable [--> implied accusation of failed duty, of course, no one here actually fills the following strawman caricature]: that is, that we shouldn’t have diverse views. Posting here is one little way that I attempt to reach such people with ideas about different possible views.
Do you see that you claim to know both an objective truth and imply knowing a truth about moral duty? Also, that you know good from bad in a moral context? The manifest incoherence is clear. So, we are back to the issue, warrant. It is obvious you do not have a sound theory of warrant but -- irony of ironies -- wish to preen on tolerance while trying to impose one or more of the specific views on morality known as relativism, subjectivism or emotivism. These views are catastrophically flawed, not least by leading to the sort of double standard I here point out. Now, what about freedom and warrant, thus diversity? The first point is, we are rational, responsible, significantly free, conscience guided creatures. Indeed, that freedom is a source of our rationality and that guidance points to its right use; on a related issue freedom is a constituent of love, the root of moral virtue. Once freedom is coeval with our humanity, diversity is inevitable, including that some will be right and some wrong. So, SHOULD there be just one view, is a self-contradiction rooted in missing a key fact. Once we are free enough to have diverse views, diversity of views is inevitable, is is not ought, ought is what should be but may well not be because of bad moral choice. The relevant real issue, then, is whether there should be creatures with freedom. To which, the obvious answer is, yes, there should be minds, reason, love, virtue. Which implies creatures who can and also in cases will do what is irrational, follow fallacies, hate or be indifferent and callous, debased and vice-ridden. But then we expect then that there will be principles and faculties that guide us to truth, reason, virtue, love, justice. So, the strawman caricature of the right wing Christofascist, theocratic, totalitarian bigot collapses. Further, we come back to the Ciceronian, self evident first duties of reason. They can be flouted, but that is chaotic. What we cannot evade, is recognising their legitimate authority. In that context, you have not been able to put on the table any cogent rounds for your claimed knowledge, in general and as regards moral duty. You have no coherent account of warrant and your system of opinions is riddled with incoherence by double standards. Thus, your scheme of thought fails. KF kairosfocus
Asauber asks:
So, do you believe the Christian God is coercing everything you do? Or do you not believe in the Christian God, therefore you have freedom of choice?
I don't believe in the Christian God. I know I have free will.
Are you one of the guys who doesn’t believe in the Christian God, but still formulate positions to blame him for this or that or the other thing? Is that what you do?
No. I'm making observations about the implications of the Christian premise of God in response to KF's arguments about government, moral duties, etc. I have no problem with Christianity whatsoever, or with people who believe in it. But, if someone is going to make these arguments that rely on Christian premises and ideology, it is fair to criticize those premises and what they entail and imply. William J Murray
I would love to engage with him on an amicable basis as I think I could learn much from him
I constantly learn from him but am not afraid to disagree with him especially on his complex presentation approach and difficult to understand comments. By the way he is reading what we write about him here.
how would you label me?
opinions not well justified. Is that a label, an assessment or a description? Or all three? To use the concept of the OP. Kf uses the word “warrant.” I hate the word so I use “justify”instead. Opinions come closer to knowledge/truth the more they are justified. I said your comment was absurd because you misconstrued my comment about non-Western cultures. I did not say all. I said most. So the argument is over how many not labeling. A survey a few years ago indicated about 750 million want to migrate. I bet the number is much higher if they thought it could happen. jerry
Jerry
Another absurd comment.
Really? I gave a list of my beliefs and opinions further up in the thread. Based on those, how would you label me? would you label me? And, if so, why? paige
Jerry
I have never seen a more knowledgeable person than Kf. He is familiar with theories in a multitude of disciplines. And he generally has a good assessment of the world as well as history.
I don't deny that he is a very smart person. He appears to be able to draw information out of thin air.The same can be said for BA77. But being able to regurgitate information and being able to apply it appropriately to real world situations doesn't always go hand-in-hand. A sure sign of this is the regurgitation of the same cut-and-paste multiple times. Rather than address the questions asked of him (and of BA77), he just rearranges the same information in an increasingly inartiiculate fashion. Don't get me wrong, I would love to engage with him on an amicable basis as I think I could learn much from him. But I am not prepared to engage in discussions with people who are as condescending and dismissive as he is to anyone who disagrees with him. You can be abrasive, as I can be at times, but you usually make an effort to try to explain your reasons to me. I may disagree, but we can do it in a civil fashion. paige
It is another example of labelling.
Another absurd comment. jerry
Sandy asks, "The existence of diverse views is an empirical fact but that all views are true is not an empirical fact so why in the world you ask to accept all views as true and not discriminate between true and false views?" I don't think I said anything about accepting all views as true. I said that I think we have to live with the fact that diverse views exist, which is different. In fact, one the post that Paige quoted I wrote, "how we are to live in a world where we have wide diversity of views: even if we strongly disagree with others, we have to live with them." I very much think some views are bad: a simple example is how women are treated in Saudi Arabia and many other countries. Another example: I very much think that some of the principles of Western democracy are the best. I'm not saying at all that all views are equivalent. But I will say that they are many diverse views that I am indifferent about and I think I should respect: simple examples are hair and dress styles, music and art, religious ceremonies, etc. Viola Lee
You can rearrange the tiles as often as you like, but you really don’t get any new information.
I have never seen a more knowledgeable person than Kf. He is familiar with theories in a multitude of disciplines. And he generally has a good assessment of the world as well as history. However, his attempts to make his positions known involve the patchwork of several different ideas using elaborate visuals that probably flow in his mind but come off as convoluted at best. It’s hard to find fault with any specific thing but there are usually too many to comprehend clearly. My objections to his OP’s and comments are they are too elaborate and too confusing. Not that they are wrong per se or ill formed. So I have pleaded for simplicity. I believe they would communicate better and thus, be more persuasive. But he wants to include everything. My background is advertising and effective advertising/communication is simple. Adding things detracts, not persuades. It’s hard to convince someone that more is not better. A legendary copywriter expressed this with the following story.
a man was extremely in love with a woman he was about to marry the next day. He wanted to tell her how much he loved her. So he decided to send her a telegram. He went to the Telegraph office and wrote out this short message,
Eliza, I love you, I love you, I love you, Antonio
The telegraph operator said you paid for 10 words and this is only 9. The man thought for a few minutes and added something. An hour later his future bride received the telegram. It said
Eliza, I love you, I love you, I love you Regards Antonio.
jerry
Jerry
Why? I am not judging any individual anywhere. But the truth is that billions of people want to leave most non-Western cultures and come to the West.
Do you have a reference for this? Yes, there are many people who want to leave totalitarian regimes, but you can't lump all non-western countries into this category. It is another example of labelling. paige
Viola Lee re 391 and 378. I gather you guys didn’t read, or perhaps understand, my clarification at 375.
Viola Lee 375 that it is a true fact that the world is filled with people holding very diverse views and ways of living. That is an empirical fact. Whether one feels that one “has to live with that” is an individual choice. I think we have to try to work towards living with that
:))) The existence of diverse views is an empirical fact but that all views are true is not an empirical fact so why in the world you ask to accept all views as true and not discriminate between true and false views? Sandy
And I find Jerry’s narrow-minded feelings about non-Western cultures appalling.
Why? I am not judging any individual anywhere. But the truth is that billions of people want to leave most non-Western cultures and come to the West. They are not emigrating elsewhere. They are the ones who are deciding. The US has benefited from immigrants from East and South Asia. The one thing they bring Is an attitude of hard work and family orientation. To the point that white liberals in the US now discriminate against Asians. The culture left by the Spanish in Latin America has been extremely dysfunctional and based on a thousand year old system of hierarchy brought to the new world. jerry
VL
I’ll bet KF’s next OP contains the plumb bob, or the red ball, or any one of a number of other pictures again! Reading KF’s posts certainly has a Groundhog Day flavor. ?
I know what you mean. They are like the old sliding tile puzzles. You can rearrange the tiles as often as you like, but you really don’t get any new information. :) I especially like the lemmings jumping over the cliff, and the guy standing on the branch while sawing it off. What is your favorite? paige
re 391 and 378. I gather you guys didn't read, or perhaps understand, my clarification at 375. re 388: I'll bet KF's next OP contains the plumb bob, or the red ball, or any one of a number of other pictures again! Reading KF's posts certainly has a Groundhog Day flavor. :-) And I find Jerry's narrow-minded feelings about non-Western cultures appalling. And Stephen at 387 says, "No person or group should ever strive for “diversity,” as such. This is a terrible idea. Just as unity in the absence of diversity promotes lock-step conformity; diversity in the absence of unity promotes chaos." Yes, there should be a balance between unity and diversity, and some unity needs to be at the core. But at a minimum there is a core humanity that unites us all, but because of many factors there is already a large amount of diversity in the world, not because we have strived (striven?) for that but because the world is so large that different areas and groups have developed differently. And Stephen also says, “Those with different ideas and backgrounds should rally around a single idea that brings them together as a community.” This is a good ideal. For me, that desired idea would be that we all have a common core of humanity, and that all people deserve some of the key principles of our democracy: to be treated equality under the law and to be given, as much as possible opportunities for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, given that there is so much irremediable diversty in the physical nature of the world (climate, resources, etc.) and so much historical differences in the cultures of the world, that unifying commitment to core humanitarian ideals must necessarily manifest in many different ways. Viola Lee
The Western culture, is mainly the freedom of opinion, free speech. The liberty. Western culture, it basically started from medieval Christians dividing matters of personal opinion, from matters of fact. That started the scientific revolution. Then you had each in their proper domain, religion broadly with subjective issues, and science broadly about objective issues. But what is also typically Western culture, is nazism and communism. After the scientific revolution got started, in the culture around science, people became fact obsessed, and convinced that science could dictate right and wrong. Then you got scientific socialism, communism, and nazi eugenics, the holocaust. Which is typically Western outgrowth from the scientific revolution. mohammadnursyamsu
Jerry is free to spew racist tripe, but it doesn’t jive with the fact that western culture has been hugely affected, in a positive way, by other cultures.
That’s interesting. Just about everything you write is nonsense and now you are making incredibly tasteless accusations. So I am a racist too? Why don’t you take on my other challenge here: The United States is the least racist country in the history of the world. Prove me wrong! But you are already aware of this and I answered you before when you posted derogatory remarks. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/sheffield-university-darwin-ruled-problematic-figure-due-to-racism/#comment-730206 jerry
Sandy “VL , you promote one view only,one single position(“we have to live with diversity”) blaming those(you are included) who have one view only( who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable) You didn’t realize you were talking about yourself and debunked yourself.” Yeppers Vivid vividbleau
Jerry
I rest my case. I won.
And how many Western developments were the result of input from Asian and African Americans? Individuals, I might add, who were not granted full rights under our system because of the color of their skin or the presence of epicanthic folds on their eyes. Jerry is free to spew racist tripe, but it doesn’t jive with the fact that western culture has been hugely affected, in a positive way, by other cultures. paige
Perhaps you should consider algebra, for one thing! gunpowder, paper, printing, the compass, domestication of rice, corn and wheat, the list goes on and on and on
                                I rest my case. I won. The average age of these accomplishments are about 1000 years. And they are not culture. Let’s hear it for Chinese, Mexican and Indian food. I am extremely well read on the history of innovation/invention and know where they came from and what happened to them when they got to the West. Here are three excellent sources for those interested. https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-the-inventions-that-changed-the-world https://www.amazon.com/How-Innovation-Works-Flourishes-Freedom-ebook/dp/B07WSBV7YZ/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1621372084&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/At-Home-Short-History-Private-ebook/dp/B003F3FJGY/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1621372187&sr=8-1 jerry
StephenB, The kick-in-the-pants is they will soon travel back in time to two weeks ago and it'll be Groundhog Day again, and none of this happened. Andrew asauber
There is another common misconception that needs to be addressed. No person or group should ever strive for "diversity," as such. This is a terrible idea. Just as unity in the absence of diversity promotes lock-step conformity; diversity in the absence of unity promotes chaos. What should be sought is diversity in unity. Those with different ideas and backgrounds should rally around a single idea that brings them together as a community. Political leftists do not grasp this point because they do not seek the common good nor do they value the tranquility of order. StephenB
The skeptics' immediate response to KF's post: "There is no such thing as an objective moral law or a self-evident moral truth. Reason's rules are merely "your" rules as a Theist. We have no duty to truth and morality. After kicking and screaming for a week: "OK. an objective moral code does exist, but it is certainly not self evident. Reason's rules do not apply to the moral code." After kicking and screaming for another week: "OK, the objective nature of morality and reason' rules is self-evident, but it just ain't fair. I didn't ask to be born in this intrusive moral universe." StephenB
Opium. paige
Jerry: The main thing that non Western cultures have brought to the West is delicious food and cheap labor. Prove me wrong! Aside from the lovely examples already provided by Paige and Viola Lee I'd add aspects of astronomy, preservation of Greek texts, some weapons (maybe not to be celebrated), many, many, many spices, potatoes, tobacco . . . the list goes on and on and on. JVL
VL
That is a very sad perspective. Perhaps you should consider algebra, for one thing!
Also gunpowder, paper, printing, the compass, domestication of rice, corn and wheat, domestication of the cat (OK, maybe that wasn’t a great idea :) ), domestication of chickens, cattle and sheep, alcoholic drinks, the oar, written language, the umbrella, mirrors, stirrups, ice cream, paper money, the land mine (OK, we can live without that one), PlayStation, and Hello Kitty. paige
re 380: :-( That is a very sad perspective. Perhaps you should consider algebra, for one thing! Viola Lee
Again, how it works is, first you accept the concept of personal opinion, with the creationist conceptual scheme, and then you get diverstity of opinion. Materialists, who only validate the concept of fact, and not validate the concept of personal opinion, that's not really diversity. That is just rubbish. Socialist/ wokeist / fascist rubbish. The creationist conceptual scheme is basically a constitution of the mind. You accept the constitution of the concept of personal opinion, and the concept of fact, and then you can proceed to choose purely emotional opinions, and obtain accurate facts. Without the constitution, it's just a mess. mohammadnursyamsu
Here's a proposition on multiculturalism and diversity that's off topic. The main thing that non Western cultures have brought to the West is delicious food and cheap labor. Prove me wrong! Someone once said it was the only thing but I am being a little lenient that there may be something else. jerry
Jerry
I don’t know anything about diversity even though I’ve been to all 7 continents twice and over forty countries, all I did was watch animals and look at scenery.
I hope you are being sarcastic. If not, I feel sorry for you as you are missing out on one of the most interesting, and sometimes challenging, aspects of travel. paige
Viola Lee Sandy, when I say “the truth is we have to live with diversity”,
VL , you promote one view only,one single position("we have to live with diversity") blaming those(you are included) who have one view only( who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable) You didn't realize you were talking about yourself and debunked yourself. Sandy
VL
Paige, I cherish some parts of diversity and some I don’t,..
I was hasty in stating that I cherish diversity. It implied that I cherish all worldviews and opinions, which I obviously don’t. When I travel I make a point of eating in local restaurants. In my free time I will often attend local religious services. Unlike some of my American peers, when I attend my international meetings I make a point of socializing with people from other countries rather than sticking within the comfort level of other English speakers. It is these interactions that I cherish. paige
Have you seen the irony alert?
I don’t know anything about diversity even though I’ve been to all 7 continents twice and over forty countries, all I did was watch animals and look at scenery. jerry
Sandy, when I say "the truth is we have to live with diversity", what I mean is that it is a true fact that the world is filled with people holding very diverse views and ways of living. That is an empirical fact. Whether one feels that one "has to live with that" is an individual choice. I think we have to try to work towards living with that, but as I said elsewhere that doesn't mean I support all those diverse views. It just means I recognize the reality of such diverse views being part of the world, and my merely not liking it isn't going to make them go away. Viola Lee
KF, you write,
So, put up cause to take opinions seriously as responsibly, reliably warranted and so trustworthy rather than fallacious and ruinously manipulative, or fail as utterly irrational and misanthropically anticivilisational _______
There is nothing very comprehensible about that KF. Can you be more specific? What part of what I have written do you take issue with: that same-sex attractions are just as natural, and to some seen as God-given, as heterosexual attractions, and thus our commitment to treating people equally justifies them having all the legal, civil benefits of marriage? Instead of just name-calling, address the specifics. Viola Lee
Viola Lee Paige, I cherish some parts of diversity and some I don’t, but the truth is we have to live with diversity– both the good and bad parts. Ironically, one of the diverse views that we have to live with is of those who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable: that is, that we shouldn’t have diverse views. Posting here is one little way that I attempt to reach such people with ideas about different possible views.
:))) Have you seen the irony alert? Sandy
VL (ATTN Paige), have you been able to cogently fill in the blanks? No. The issue stands as noted already, despite your further displeasure with it; and yes, knowledge is a general level issue, it is epistemology one of the main branches of philosophy. Until you can answer to it, you have not got a leg to stand on. KF kairosfocus
"it’s all coercion" WJM, So, do you believe the Christian God is coercing everything you do? Or do you not believe in the Christian God, therefore you have freedom of choice? Are you one of the guys who doesn't believe in the Christian God, but still formulate positions to blame him for this or that or the other thing? Is that what you do? Andrew asauber
Asauber asks:
Does WJM understand this freedom or does he see it as a coercion of some kind?
Unless I was consulted and made a fully informed decision to come here before coming here, then of course it's all coercion, one way or another, by God, more powerful entities, or natural/spiritual forces. William J Murray
Asauber said:
You are being deliberately obtuse as usual, WJM.
I think I'm being perfectly clear. Are you a mind-reader? How would you know if I am being "deliberately" obtuse?
We can know right from wrong because God reveals the knowledge to us and you are free to reject it
That doesn't change the fact, from that perspective, that God forced that "rightness" on us in the first place, whether He "reveals" it to us or not.
Your issue is that you are not grateful for what you have been given.
Under the Christian premise, I haven't been "given" anything; all of this was forced on me without my consent.
What you are doing isn’t merely describing what you think God has done, you are complaining about it. I think it’s sad.
I'm not complaining about your theistic system because it isn't my perspective. I'm making observations about it. William J Murray
If we could just investigate a leftist nutcase, analyze him or her, then we would just find that materialism is the cause of it. These leftists have supersophisticated intellectual rationalization for what they do. The accusation that leftists are without intellectual warrant, is bogus. So did Hitler have sophisticated rationalization, writing two books full of it. And the una bomber with his manifesto, and that killer in Norway with his manifesto. And not to forget, Cuban Castro with his diatribe intellectual discussions. They all have sophisticated intellectual justifications. It's just that they generally all have a crap personal judgement, which is because they systematically ignore emotions, because emotions aren't material / factual. It is totally obvious that atheists are all just fact obsessed morons, who are utterly clueless about subjectivity. They throw out creationism, while subjectivity, emotions, are inherently creationist concepts. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact mohammadnursyamsu
Paige, I cherish some parts of diversity and some I don't, but the truth is we have to live with diversity– both the good and bad parts. Ironically, one of the diverse views that we have to live with is of those who have a dogmatic insistence that one view, and one view only, is acceptable: that is, that we shouldn't have diverse views. Posting here is one little way that I attempt to reach such people with ideas about different possible views. Viola Lee
So here's something for us to think about. God wasn't the only person with a role in our creation. Our parents were involved too. Humans have the power to help create families or not. That's a significant freedom. Does WJM understand this freedom or does he see it as a coercion of some kind? Andrew asauber
VL
I read KF’s “defense” at 351 and 352, which is nothing but another rant of dire generalizations about the catastrophic state of civilization. There is not one word in there about how people are to work to determine “warrant” when there is serious disagreement about issues among raional, educated, caring people, nor about how we are to live in a world where we have wide diversity of views: even if we strongly disagree with others, we have to live with them.
I think the bolded sentence is the crux of the matter. Correct me if I misrepresent you, but I think that you and I cherish living in a world where there are different worldviews, different religions, different opinions. Interacting and learning about these makes life interesting and makes us better people. However, KF, BA77, Sandy, SB and a few others here, especially those who insist on labelling people, don't want a world with varied worldview, religions and opinions; they want everyone to believe what they believe. Anything less would result in the downfall of civilization. I said that we should be strongly advocating for arranged marriages semi-facetiously, but I think it is very appropriate. If protection of the nuclear family is truly the reason that they oppose SSM then they would be hypocritical if they didn't advocate for arranged marriages which have an order of magnitude lower divorce rate than traditional marriage. But they won't because we all know that their position on SSM is religious, not protection of the nuclear family. paige
"Under your premise, we know right from wrong not because God is good and right, but because he forced that “rightness” on us by creating it into the world, and then forcing it on us when He created us into this world." You are being deliberately obtuse as usual, WJM. We can know right from wrong because God reveals the knowledge to us and you are free to reject it and whatever goodness and rightness you think you can detect (which you obviously reject a lot of it). Your issue is that you are not grateful for what you have been given. What you are doing isn't merely describing what you think God has done, you are complaining about it. I think it's sad. Andrew asauber
Asauber said:
It’s not God’s might that makes him “right”. His goodness makes Him “right”. It’s His nature to be “right”
If God didn't have the might to instantiate His rightness into His creation, including the consequences for right or wrong behavior, nobody would be living under that rightness, now would they? Under your premise, we know right from wrong not because God is good and right, but because he forced that "rightness" on us by creating it into the world, and then forcing it on us when He created us into this world. There is no escaping might makes right. William J Murray
Thanks for the link, Jerry. Andrew asauber
It’s not God’s might that makes him “right”. His goodness makes Him “right”. It’s His nature to be “right”
You may be interested in the transcript of the lecture on Boethius from the Teaching Company. I transcribed part of it on another thread. Interesting in the archives, there are no tags for Boethius (that I understand) but also none for goodness or happiness or fortune which is chance. The tag "chance" is in the smallest type which means there isn't many articles for it. In fact there is only one so I picked it to post these thoughts on goodness, happiness, fortune and chance. If you are interested here is the link. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/chance-vs-randomness-another-theological-dance-in-darwins-defense/#comment-730766 A little background on Boethius. He rose from an orphan to the second highest rank in the Roman Empire, just below the emperor(when the empire was in decline.) But was then unjustly accused of treason and put in prison to await execution (AD 524.) In prison, he wrote his magnum opus, "The Consolation of Philosophy." aside: think how hard it was to compose a long document in a prison in the 500's. I heard a story yesterday of Hardy, who in the early 1800's composed a long treatise on the history of the French Revolution and sent it to John Stuart Mill for his thoughts. Mill had the document destroyed and blamed his servant. Hardy was without his long document and had to construct it over again from memory as all his notes were gone. He had no copy on his computer. jerry
I read KF's "defense" at 351 and 352, which is nothing but another rant of dire generalizations about the catastrophic state of civilization. There is not one word in there about how people are to work to determine "warrant" when there is serious disagreement about issues among raional, educated, caring people, nor about how we are to live in a world where we have wide diversity of views: even if we strongly disagree with others, we have to live with them. KF offers nothing about these genuine issues. All his words are so unspecified that they can be applied to any view. Really, their only message is that a certain view, his and others like him, is right, and everyone is wrong. I particularly note this line, "Oh, you may dress up with nice sounding terms like “values,” “equality,” “equity” etc, but the ugly, brutal 1984 message is clear." What a dismissal! The idea that someone with views other than his might genuinely care about such values as equality is beyond his comprehension. Trying to sort through specific issues here is instructive, but dismaying. Viola Lee
WJM, It's not God's might that makes him "right". His goodness makes Him "right". It's His nature to be "right". Maybe a Muslim would say otherwise, or some other religious group, but Christianity wouldn't. Andrew asauber
At 351, KF writes, "You challenge me to connect back to focus," No, I didn't challenge you. I just responded to your claims that the thread was off-topic. Your feeling of being challenged is something you bring to the table. Jerry writes, "One used the Nazi Germany defense of immoral laws, it’s the law, and the other argued against the nuclear family." No, we were not using the "Nazi Germany" defends of immoral laws. We were discussing the more difficult questions of what do we do when people disagree about what is moral, and in particular your claim that people should be able to not follow laws they believe are immoral without consequence. Paige mentioned civil disobedience. If you believe the laws are immoral, work to change the laws, or break the laws and be willing to take the consequences. Dismissing those ideas, which are at the heart of our democratic ideals, as "Nazi Germany". Expecting to be able to claim religious belief" as a rationale for being allowed to break the law is an unacceptable idea, in my opinion. And we have not argued against the nuclear family. Being supportive of a wide range of other family arrangements is not the same as being against the nuclear family: I said quite a few things about that above. So you misrepresent us,I think. And KF writes, "Jerry, the key exchange at Nuremberg ran, that you did not need a legislature or court to tell you that murder was wrong, inherently criminal." Same-sex marriage is not in the same category as murder. Over half the people in the US don't think same-sex marriage is wrong. You are comparing two fundamentally different things. Viola Lee
Somebody feels neglected. Expressed as
My inane thoughts are as vacuous as their’s. Look at me, look at me. Please look at me!
jerry
From the Christian perspective, did anyone ask to be created and forced into this situation? Or, did God create us in a neutral place and then ask us if we wanted to be thrown into this world without any memory of making that choice? No? Then, might makes right. Even the argument that might does not make right is necessarily, ultimately argued from a might makes right perspective; the ultimate, creative or existential might that establishes and enforces what is "right." William J Murray
Lawless oligarchy is the natural order of government, because all government depends on power and the will to enforce it on others. Those with power and the will to enforce it on others are inherently predisposed to lawless oligarchy, even if they must disguise it to others or themselves as some form of lawful democracy or republic. Even democratic voting represents the will to enforce your desires on others. There is no escaping it. Might (in whatever form) makes right is just the way things are, even if you believe in a good, just, creator God. William J Murray
Jerry, the key exchange at Nuremberg ran, that you did not need a legislature or court to tell you that murder was wrong, inherently criminal. As I just augmented these have lost across the board, they cannot justify having an intellectually defensible right to what they opine, propose and use as objections, much less reliable warrant on faculties with evident purpose of truth, with reliable functioning and in a correct environment to work as advertised. They have lost -- nay, forfeited --the right to imply or suggest knowledge, moral justification, policy soundness, logic, science. There is no longer enough doubt in the intellectual marketplace account to claim the benefit of. Across the board intellectual and moral bankruptcy. Worse, the crooked yardsticks behind their arguments, opinions and assumptions warp them away from being corrected and lead to misanthropic, anti civilisational, looter mentality jacobinism and Cretanism. Unfortunately, the fallacies are widespread and deeply embedded. Hence, a hard grinding slog to dig them out and replace them with Ciceronian soundness pivoting on highest reason. Welcome to Guadalcanal. KF kairosfocus
The intellectual and moral bankruptcy lie exposed, and the voyage of folly consequences are on record
Kf, I usually do not engage the disingenuous here unless I believe it will expose their insincerity and make a point. I often wonder why they are here. But in a way the exchange was on target as a lack of justification for any of their views was further exposed. They cannot help exposing the vacuousness of their positions. One used the Nazi Germany defense of immoral laws, it’s the law, and the other argued against the nuclear family. In the OP on the natural law being the basis for human law, I brought up the Teaching Company course on Natural Law. In the beginning of that course, it was pointed out at the Nuremberg Trials, the argument was made that there is a higher law than human law built into the species which is why they could try the Germans. But one of our commenters here spent a lot of words arguing against such a position. So it was about the OP. Aside: many fail to understand that technological advancements are often contrary to moral advancement. We may be on a technological exponential growth curve but on a decline morally. Many think the one is all that is needed but the second curve’s decline may prove the undoing of everything. jerry
Jerry, this is the OP and thread where the measure of what we are dealing with is taken. The inveterate objectors manifestly cannot justify much less warrant their assertions, insinuations, inferences and suggestions or proposed policy, they have lost the knowledge issue so also the Science issue and the logic issue too. The intellectual and moral bankruptcy lie exposed, and the voyage of folly consequences are on record since Plato and since Acts 27. The wider history is there, including the utter bankruptcy of jacobinism and radical revolution including culture form marxism and its narrative of civilisational oppression while it targets the cultural buttresses that support the unprecedented freedom of constitutional democracy. We can take it to the bank that were they to gain unchecked power, lawless ideological oligarchy would rise again as they loot the civilisation and do as they will with those they despise, slander and scapegoat. They started the fight, it is time for counter-offensives that will not stop until there is unconditional surrender. For the US, I am confident that China's blue ocean breakout attempt is a major wakeup call hence the 124 generals and admirals joining their French and Australian colleagues in warning. Iran is getting the message it can advance in the face of appeasement, though Israel is currently handing Hamas some body blows. The geostrategic vultures are rising. Locally, I think you are at Midway-Guadalcanal stage, tide-turning, mostly grinding battles that will take time to break the forces that indulged strategic over-reach by launching a Pearl Harbour strike. It is that distraction the Chinese hope to exploit to foster Blue Ocean breakout. They are even seeking Atlantic bases. Folly has consequences, including global geostrategic consequences. KF kairosfocus
VL, et al: I find it interesting how you wish to justify derailment. You challenge me to connect back to focus, which is on knowledge and warrant (which have largely been evaded, dismissed and dodged, itself significant), I will. The matter is simple, this is about knowledge and warrant, not opinions, feelings, manipulation, imposition by might and/or manipulation. Plantinga rightly argues that absent reliable and credibly purposeful means of moving beyond belief to credible truth, one has no warrant. Where, it is easy to see above that on issues of choice, policy, government, declaration under colour of law, moral freight through justice -- due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities/duties -- you have rejected, evaded, resisted, dismissed self evident Ciceronian first duties of reason tied to the evident purpose and regulation of mind through rightly guided highest reason. Therefore, we have a right to conclude that you have forfeited claims to warrant regarding justice, government and law. That leaves only the nihilism of might and manipulation backed by lawless will to power. Complete with 1984 style newspeak corruption of language, warping thinking through turning language itself into a means of manipulation. Oh, you may dress up with nice sounding terms like "values," "equality," "equity" etc, but the ugly, brutal 1984 message is clear. The radical progressivist agenda is fundamentally misanthropic, anti-civilisational, irrational, impulse driven and that by perverse fundamentally irrational impulses. The appeals to authority of first duties you cannot evade making are in utter disregard to duty to truth. In short, we are dealing with modern Cretanism. In Epimenides of Crete's words of C6 BC, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." Only ship of fools voyages can come from such a mix. No wonder, two years after his experience of a voyage of folly, Paul wrote in the circular letter we find as Ep. Eph:
Eph 4: 17 So I say this, and insist23 in the Lord, that you no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility24 of their thinking.25 18 They are darkened in their understanding,26 being alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. 19 Because they are callous, they have given themselves over to indecency for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.27 20 But you did not learn about Christ like this, 21 if indeed you heard about him and were taught in him, just as the truth is in Jesus. 22 You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside28 the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 23 to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image29 – in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.30
That is the stark choice our civilisation again faces, in the words of the man who literally embodied the Christian synthesis of the heritage of Jerusalem, Athens and Rome that is at the root of our civilisation as we know it today. No wonder, we see the worst, ongoing holocaust in history proceeding under false colour of law, slaughter of living posterity in the womb. No wonder we see politics of agit prop and lawfare backed by corruption of policing, courts and legislatures, shaped by the impact of that holocaust. Now, manifesting misanthropy in the resurrected jacobinism of culture form marxism and cynical, willfully tendentious rewriting and reframing history to vilify the legacy that provides buttresses to constitutional democracy, in order to advance lawless ideological oligarchy. After all, it is the BATNA of lawfulness that restrains that reversion to the historic norm of lawless power in control, tyranny. And as lawless ideology cannot reason and show cause as to reliability of that reasoning (especially on morally freighted matters tied to justice . . . the pivotal first duty of government), it is no wonder that we see confession by projection to the despised other. Hence, for example, willful perversion of thought regarding identity, sexuality, family, child nurture, education. To advance irrational perversity, cynical hyperskepticism must be pushed against historic buttresses, family, marriage, church, core legacy of civilisation-rooted history and education. And indeed those exact sentiments are in the 1848 Communist manifesto and run like a thread down to today's op-eds, textbooks, media presentations, so-called news, court rulings and decrees under colour of law and policy. For cause, there is therefore no confidence in the claims regarding justice, rights, equality, policy, law, onward steering of the ship of state. Until you can show cause that you do due diligence to first duties, with faculties shown to be reliably directed at warranting truth, we can freely dismiss your claims of progress as little more than rhetoric to seize the helm and set out on a voyage of looting and folly on the ship of state. You declared and launched on 4th gen civilisational civil war, you face the consequences. For those whose worldviews of evolutionary materialistic scientism and the like [the fellow traveller ideologies] it is worse, you have no right to claim reliability of mind, you are left to the chaos and folly of grand delusion while you loot the intellectual heritage of civilisation. So, there is no reason to have confidence in your opinions, assertions, demands, claimed intent to lead progress and right historic injustices. The track record of Cretanism is clear: decadence, perversity, addiction, en-darken-ment of mind and heart under false colours of enlightenment and progress, leading to ruin. That of Jacobinism and radical revolution is worse, as 100 million ghosts remind us. So, we reckon the bankrupt rhetoric of progress as what it is, speaking in disregard to the truth and duty, in intent of profiting from what is said or suggested being regarded as true, right, just. Manipulation driven by folly and intellectual bankruptcy that can provide no warrant to truth, rights and justice claims, beyond might and cynical manipulation. Of course, the likes of those showing up here are unlikely to be instigators or chief agit prop operatives, but the core issues are the same. Intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Cretanism and Jacobinism are duly noted. Policies in defiance of sound civilisation and lawfulness are duly noted for what they are. There is no reason to cede credibility or power to such. The distractions and side tracks above have no fundamental credibility as responsibly warranted and should be regarded as the policies of the misanthropic, perverse and anti-civilisational. We would be ill advised indeed to grant them any benefits of the doubt. So, put up cause to take opinions seriously as responsibly, reliably warranted and so trustworthy rather than fallacious and ruinously manipulative, or fail as utterly irrational and misanthropically anticivilisational _______ Prediction, no warrant will be forthcoming, just more distractions and hobby horse riding. I dare you to show me wrong _________ It is time to turn from a voyage of civilisational folly to reform and rebuild on soundness starting from self evident first duties. KF PS: Seversky, you continue the internet atheist anti-Bible rants. Polygamy and Concubinage are forms of warped culture that are too deeply entrenched in hard hearts to directly over-rule, but are left to gradual reform. So, we see in the OT, portrayal of the history of impact on family of substandard structures and cultural systems, starting with patriarchs. Kings are forbidden to multiply wives in the Constitution of Israelo and church leaders too. kairosfocus
General thoughts: Re the original post, as an engineer my knee-jerk response to the difference between knowledge and justified true belief is Popperian - a recourse to validation and attempted falsification. I may have a JTB that team A beat team B, but a quick call to confirm the outcome turns JTB to knowledge (or not). Re polygamy and the Bible. There was no need to "explicitly" condemn polygamy, because heterosexual monogamy was "explicitly" (and repeatedly) declared