Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP42: is knowledge warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

It’s time to start delivering on a promise to address “warrant, knowledge, logic and first duties of reason as a cluster,” even at risk of being thought pedantic. Our civilisation is going through a crisis of confidence, down to the roots. If it is to be restored, that is where we have to start, and in the face of rampant hyperskepticism, relativism, subjectivism, emotivism, outright nihilism and irrationality, we need to have confidence regarding knowledge.

Doing my penance, I suppose: these are key issues and so here I stand, in good conscience, I can do no other, God help me.

For a start, from the days of Plato, knowledge has classically been defined as “justified, true belief.” However, in 1963, the late Mr Gettier put the cat in among the pigeons, with Gettier counter-examples; which have since been multiplied. In effect, there are circumstances (and yes, sometimes seemingly contrived, but these are instructive thought exercises) in which someone or a circle may be justified to hold a belief but on taking a wider view such cannot reasonably be held to be a case of knowledge.

As a typical thought exercise, consider a circle of soldiers and sailors on some remote Pacific island, who are eagerly awaiting a tape of a championship match sent out by the usual morale units. They get it, play it and rejoice that team A has won over team B (and the few who thought otherwise have to cough up on their bets to the contrary). Unbeknownst to them, through clerical error, it was last year’s match, which had the same A vs B match-up and more or less the same outcome. They are justified — have a right — to believe, what they believe is so, but somehow the two fail to connect leading to accidental, not reliable arrival at truth.

Knowledge must be built of sterner stuff.

Ever since, epistemology as a discipline, has struggled to rebuild a solid consensus on what knowledge is.

Plantinga weighed in with a multi-volume study, championing warrant, which(as we just noted) is at first defined by bill of requisites. That is, we start with what it must do. So, warrant — this builds on the dictionary/legal/commercial sense of a reliable guarantee of performance “as advertised” — will be whatever reliably converts beliefs we have a right to into knowledge.

The challenge being, to fill in the blank, “Warrant is: __________ .”

Plantinga then summarises, in his third volume:

The question is as old as Plato’s Theaetetus: what is it that distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief? What further quality or quantity must a true belief have, if it is to constitute knowledge? This is one of the main questions of epistemology. (No doubt that is why it is called ‘theory of knowledge’.) Along with nearly all subsequent thinkers, Plato takes it for granted that knowledge is at least true belief: you know a proposition p only if you believe it, and only if it is true. [–> I would soften to credibly, true as we often use knowledge in that softer, defeat-able sense cf Science] But Plato goes on to point out that true belief, while necessary for knowledge, is clearly not sufficient: it is entirely possible to believe something that is true without knowing it . . .

[Skipping over internalism vs externalism, Gettier, blue vs grue or bleen etc etc] Suppose we use the term ‘warrant’ to denote that further quality or quantity (perhaps it comes in degrees), whatever precisely it may be, enough of which distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief. Then our question (the subject of W[arrant and] P[roper] F[unction]): what is warrant?

My suggestion (WPF, chapters 1 and 2) begins with the idea that a belief has warrant only if it is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, subject to no disorder or dysfunction—construed as including absence of impedance as well as pathology. The notion of proper function is fundamental to our central ways of thinking about knowledge. But that notion is inextricably bound with another: that of a design plan.37

Human beings and their organs are so constructed that there is a way they should work, a way they are supposed to work, a way they work when they work right; this is the way they work when there is no malfunction . . . We needn’t initially take the notions of design plan and way in which a thing is supposed to work to entail conscious design or purpose [–> design, often is naturally evident, e.g. eyes are to see and ears to hear, both, reasonably accurately] . . .

Accordingly, the first element in our conception of warrant (so I say) is that a belief has warrant for someone only if her faculties are functioning properly, are subject to no dysfunction, in producing that belief.39 But that’s not enough.

Many systems of your body, obviously, are designed to work in a certain kind of environment . . . . this is still not enough. It is clearly possible that a belief be produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly in an environment for which they were designed, but nonetheless lack warrant; the above two conditions are not sufficient. We think that the purpose or function of our belief-producing faculties is to furnish us with true (or verisimilitudinous) belief. As we saw above in connection with the F&M complaint [= Freud and Marx], however, it is clearly possible that the purpose or function of some belief-producing faculties or mechanisms is the production of beliefs with some other virtue—perhaps that of enabling us to get along in this cold, cruel, threatening world, or of enabling us to survive a dangerous situation or a life-threatening disease.

So we must add that the belief in question is produced by cognitive faculties such that the purpose of those faculties is that of producing true belief.

More exactly, we must add that the portion of the design plan governing the production of the belief in question is aimed at the production of true belief (rather than survival, or psychological comfort, or the possibility of loyalty, or something else) . . . .

[W]hat must be added is that the design plan in question is a good one, one that is successfully aimed at truth, one such that there is a high (objective) probability that a belief produced according to that plan will be true (or nearly true). Put in a nutshell, then, a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth. We must add, furthermore, that when a belief meets these conditions and does enjoy warrant, the degree of warrant it enjoys depends on the strength of the belief, the firmness with which S holds it. This is intended as an account of the central core of our concept of warrant; there is a penumbral area surrounding the central core where there are many analogical extensions of that central core; and beyond the penumbral area, still another belt of vagueness and imprecision, a host of possible cases and circumstances where there is really no answer to the question whether a given case is or isn’t a case of warrant.41 [Warranted Christian Belief (NY/Oxford: OUP, 2000), pp 153 ff. See onward, Warrant, the Current Debate and Warrant and Proper Function; also, by Plantinga.]

So, we may profitably distinguish [a] Plantinga’s specification (bill of requisites) for warrant and [b] his theory of warrant. The latter, being (for the hard core):

a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth.

Obviously, warrant comes in degrees, which is just what we need to have. Certain things are known to utterly unchangeable certainty, others are to moral certainty, others for good reason are held to be reasonably reliable though not certain enough to trust when the stakes are high, other things are in doubt as to whether they are knowledge, some things outright fail any responsible test.

That’s why I have taken up and commend a modified form, recognising that what we think is credibly, reliably true today may oftentimes be corrected for cause tomorrow. (Back in High School Chemistry class, I used to imagine a courier arriving at the door to deliver the latest updates to our teacher.)

Yes, I accept that many knowledge claims are defeat-able, so open-ended and provisional.

Indeed, that is part of what distinguishes the prudence and fair-mindedness of sober knowledge claims hard won and held or even stoutly defended in the face of uncertainty and challenge from the false certitude of blind ideologies. Especially, where deductive logical schemes can have no stronger warrant than their underlying axioms and assumptions and where inductive warrant provides support, not utterly certain, incorrigible, absolute demonstration.

That said, we must recognise that some few things are self-evident, e.g.:

While self-evident truths cannot amount to enough to build a worldview, they can provide plumb line tests relevant to the reliability of warrant for what we accept as knowledge:

Such, of course, bring to the fore Ciceronian first duties of reason:

Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks, C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . “Law (say [“many learned men”]) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

We may readily expand such first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice. Where, it may readily be seen that the would-be objector invariably appeals to the said duties. Does s/he object, false, or doubtfully so, or errors of reason, or failure to warrant, or unfairness or the like, alike, s/he appeals to the very same duties, collapsing in self-referentiality. So, instead, let us acknowledge that these are inescapable, true, self-evident.

It may help, too to bring out first principles of right reason, such as:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Expanding as a first list:

Such enable us to better use our senses and faculties to build knowledge. END

U/D May 16, regarding the Overton window, first, just an outline:

Next, as applied:

Backgrounder, on the political spectrum:

Comments
Jerry, the grinding attrition is complete. More elegant approaches may now move forward freely because of that hard won ground. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2021
June
06
Jun
11
11
2021
03:14 AM
3
03
14
AM
PDT
MNY, no, warrant is not circular, and warrant is needed as we are manifestly error-prone but duty-bound towards truth and right reason. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2021
June
06
Jun
11
11
2021
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
KF I think I fairly demonstrated circular logic in your conception of objectivity. You could say your definition is just conversational and intuitive, but you also emphasize logic, so then that option is not open to you. You generally present some common sensical reasonability. But you make an error in disregarding the categorical distinction between subjective and objective. And this is a very serious error, because it is easily shown that most immorality is based on rejection of subjectivity. With materialism, and then the political application of materialism, socialism, largescale immorality because of a complete failure to validate subjectivity intellectually.mohammadnursyamsu
June 10, 2021
June
06
Jun
10
10
2021
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
It is by these that we can prove at all, or hold confidence in adequacy of support for an inductive argument.
Short, clear to the point and well said.jerry
June 10, 2021
June
06
Jun
10
10
2021
05:16 AM
5
05
16
AM
PDT
MNY A simple logical error may be a mistake or ignorance. Dishonesty through using fallacies to manipulate is something else. Self-evident first principles and duties of reason are not circular, they are antecedent to, and inescapably authoritative as well as through and through pervasive in reasoning. It is by these that we can prove at all, or hold confidence in adequacy of support for an inductive argument. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
I just do the discrete logical definitions. Being some kind of serial killer, can be in perfect accordance with the creationist conceptual scheme. It is just basic logic, not moral. Except logical errors, those are immoral. And you make some logic error of circular logic. For other morality some bona fide religion is highly advised.mohammadnursyamsu
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
In each mind there must be at least 2 boxes, one for subjective, and one for objective. As also the physical brain has 2 main halves.
A person can't be 100% objective( because only God is objective) but can reach(the saints) the highest percents close to 100%.. Actually in christianity saints give the "steering wheel" to God and in that way they became almost 100% objective. All human beings are doomed to be subjective without a special God intervention.Sandy
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
MNY, human subjectivity means, finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often ill-willed. It requires a contrast with subjectivity in general, which we can take to mean being self-aware, conscious, free enough to reason and to be responsible. We are subjects, but subjects with certain limitations and risks. For example, if I am appeared to redly and roundly under certain conditions, I may have good reason to hold it objectively so that a red ball is in front of me. But just the other day by my favourite local hardware shop, a closer look indicated that at first glance I missed the metal part of a pin, because of a dull background and too-low lighting; cf. Gettier et al. However, it was incorrigibly the case that I was appeared to redly and roundly. So, the issue is not that subjectivity is tainted but that we as subjects are fallible, finite and prone to certain flaws beyond mere error. In that context, it is valuable to recognise a need for warrant to increase the reliability of beliefs to that of credible truth. Where, Plantinga's considerations are highly relevant; here, a bit of enhanced lighting and convergence of senses . . . touch, made a key difference. We have already duly noted the different case of other classes of subject and the non-rationality of computational substrates. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
01:25 PM
1
01
25
PM
PDT
Then subjectivity would mean insufficient warrant to establish as knowledge. So then is sufficiency a matter of subjective opinion? Sufficiency could neither be subjective nor objective, because it is an error of circular logic to define a term with itself. It is an error of logic to define objectivity with objectivity. While I use a categorical distinction between objectivity and subjectivity. That objectivity has the logic of copying, and subjectivity has the logic of choice. So then it is an error when someone is forced to say a painting is beautiful, and it is an error when a fact is not a 1 to 1 corresponding copy of what the fact is about. As fully supported by ordinary common discourse. You are being overly efficient in trying to make it all come down to one unified knowledge. You require the 2 categories of creator and creation, subjective and objective, at minimum. In each mind there must be at least 2 boxes, one for subjective, and one for objective. As also the physical brain has 2 main halves.mohammadnursyamsu
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
10:56 AM
10
10
56
AM
PDT
MNY, objective is being used to imply sufficient warrant to establish as at least weak form knowledge. That is, there is sufficient support for a claim, observation, perception, evaluation, judgement etc -- those are yardstick words -- that it is not credibly unduly subject to the error-potential of any given finite, fallible, morally struggling, sometimes ill willed individual thus readily dismissible. The individual may accurately perceive, evaluate, judge, estimate, calculate or state etc a given actual state of affairs, but our fallibility is such that we need an objective standard. KF PS: By contrast, God as necessary, inherently good, utterly wise and maximally great being, is not finite, fallible or ill willed etc. This is the context of omniscience etc. However, if so many struggle with inescapable, pervasive, self-evident first principles and duties of reason, then they will struggle mightily with the logic of the greatest possible being.kairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
Paige, regrettably but necessarily (for cause), is no longer with us.kairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
Paige, I was making a Monty Python reference, the song in Life of Brian. :)Karen McMannus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
09:50 AM
9
09
50
AM
PDT
WJM, seriously. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
07:51 AM
7
07
51
AM
PDT
The rules for useful debate: 1. Investigate the logic used in ordinary practical common discourse 2. define terms according to the logic used in ordinary common discourse 3. If you define a term differently than is used in ordinary common discourse, then explain the difference up front 4. Defining a term with several different definitions should be avoided, and if it is done it should be made explicit what the several meanings are. 5. Logical errors, contradictions in definitions, or between definitions, should be pointed out, and lead to rejection of the conceptual scheme KF is just applying the word objective with several different meanings. And is continuously trading between the different meanings in application, nevery really making a definite definition. Obviously he neglects subjectivity. Also KF doesn't much make a connection to ordinary common discourse. He makes a connection to the works of popular philosophers.mohammadnursyamsu
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
Paige, you know, game over. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
KF
PS: For most of history, most people have implicitly believed in true, knowable moral truth.
True. How has that worked out? [FN1: Oh, about as one could expect i/l/o our moral hazard of being finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed. That is, it took heart-softening by the gospel's integral ethics to change underlying thoughts and habits of the heart. As was so often pointed out but dismissed without serious reflection, the printing revolution, economic growth and the reformation-triggered ferment that moved the public to a point where they had a significantly informed voice helped to open up political space beyond the ages-long contention between lawless and hoped for lawful oligarchy. In that context, by 1689 running to 1789, we had a shift in politics expressed in natural law anchored bills of rights, and in recognition of the creation in God's image anchored common humanity thus key rights we share. We had stabilising cultural-moral buttresses for democratisation. Unsurprisingly the slave trade and slave system were among the first targets for reform, a second time around. The problem we face today, is that the buttresses are being undermined, with serious implications. FN2: Do you see the problem of entangling debates by dragging in just about every loaded objection that can be, then demanding that only very brief comments be made or they will be derided and dismissed? The OP is on knowledge and warrant, and only notes in passing that warrant has ability to support that there can be knowledge of duty in general, i.e. moral truth. That is supported by an observation regarding self-evidence. Namely, inescapability of the authority of first principles and duties. Indeed, this objection, which tries to imply systematic injustice, appeals to same but the force of that is of course studiously ignored. Instead, every contentious loaded issue is dragged in to try to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise, frustrating reasonable discussion of what would foster genuine progress. Which should serve to remind on why a base for stabilised democratisation and respect for rights had to be built up first before issues that indict corrupt elites could begin to be seriously discussed and reformed. KF] If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the key role Christians, acting out of scriptural teaching, played in the abolition of the slave trade and slavery, that loaded imbalance speaks telling volumes. I fully acknowledge that. But you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that it was also Christians, acting out scriptural teachings, the fought against the abolition of slavery. [FN3: I again add a comment regarding a cross complaint rooted in failure to engage positively with earlier comments and discussions that show the issue of reformation and heart softening of a civilisation and its power structures. For record, a direct link is here and a link on the mixed blessing heritage of Christendom is here. KF]
Paige, you owe an apology. Not only for vile personalities
I will certainly apologize if I have falsely tarnished someone's personality. Can you provide the context under which I did this? <blockquote but for trying to drag the thread into the sewer. That has to be deliberate and speaks volumes. KF Again, if you could please show where I dragged this thread into the sewer, I will certainly apologize if I truly dragged it into the sewer. [FN4: You cannot not know what you did and why it finally so far departed from responsible discussion that on refusal to deal with it frankly, serious action was taken. The pretence of innocence and turnabout are duly dismissed. KF]paige
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
The troll wants back. And it is all about Kf. The objective has always been to provoke Kf and then when he responds to invoke the response as the new provocation that must be responded to. Then Kf responds to the new fake provocation. And we go around in circles. It's the ouroboros. It's time to move on. How, by not responding to the faux offenses that people give.jerry
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
07:08 AM
7
07
08
AM
PDT
KM
When it starts to get frustrating, just think about the bright side of your life. ?
Yes. We are all individuals.paige
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
07:01 AM
7
07
01
AM
PDT
KF @1827 said:
Let us note what has stirred all of this animus: ... That such excites the attitudes on display, speaks volumes.
Your argument isn't what is causing the "excited animus," KF. I think it's more about what appears to be the condescending and disrespectful manner in which you attempt to make it.William J Murray
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
06:44 AM
6
06
44
AM
PDT
F/N: Let us note what has stirred all of this animus:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable . . . first duties of reason: "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,
1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.
Likewise, we observe again, that objectors to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction,while also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are first principles of rational, responsible, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
That such excites the attitudes on display, speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
03:14 AM
3
03
14
AM
PDT
Paige, you owe an apology. Not only for vile personalities but for trying to drag the thread into the sewer. That has to be deliberate and speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
03:04 AM
3
03
04
AM
PDT
Paige:
On a general note, it is my opinion (and just an opinion) that the danger in believing that there are objective moral truths is greater than believing that there aren’t. It is my experience that people who believe in objective moral truths tend to be less likely to question them than those who don’t believe in them.
Projection and insinuation. Are you sure it is just the other who is, well, ah, ooh, judgemental? KF PS: For most of history, most people have implicitly believed in true, knowable moral truth. The reality is, we all are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often stubbornly ill willed. That is a moral hazard of being human. A key step to addressing that -- surprise -- is to straighten out moral thinking, from self-evident first principles on. PPS: If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the key role Christians, acting out of scriptural teaching, played in the abolition of the slave trade and slavery, that loaded imbalance speaks telling volumes. FYI, the very motto of the antislavery society comes out of one of the key works that broke the credibility of slavery, the NT Epistle to Philemon, requesting manumission of a runaway slave, Onesimus, who took refuge with Paul. This was penned while chained to a roman soldier on guard for any reason to put to death for fomenting rebellion. Penned a few miles from where the Spartacists had been executed. The reality is, sound civil rights reforms grew out of the printing revolution, the ferment surrounding the Reformation and growth of constitutional, lawful democratisation in the immediate context of Christian revivals. It is the loaded anti-Christian litany that betrays underlying attitude.kairosfocus
June 9, 2021
June
06
Jun
9
09
2021
02:51 AM
2
02
51
AM
PDT
paige @1281, When it starts to get frustrating, just think about the bright side of your life. ;)Karen McMannus
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
11:12 PM
11
11
12
PM
PDT
Jerry: One does not choose to survive or not. Tell that to 50,000+- people who commit suicide in the USA every year. Many of them are irrational, to be sure. But many are rational people who choose death instead of living in physical pain. It's their preference. They are also innate basic needs. Needs are needs, and are not "duties" just because you say you. I very often put off my needs to further some goal. Preference again. Does that mean I'm shirking my "duty" to fulfill my needs? Hehe. Not hardly.Karen McMannus
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
11:10 PM
11
11
10
PM
PDT
Sandy, Me: You don’t know if I or anyone besides yourself has consciousness or not. You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself? You: You don’t know if I or anyone besides yourself don’t have consciousness. Correct. I am agnostic about that question. You conclude so by working from a single data point: yourself? No. That I don't know if you are conscience or not is not a conclusion. It's an open question. I lack data to make such a conclusion.Karen McMannus
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
11:02 PM
11
11
02
PM
PDT
VB, I was envisioning the Monty Python skit where they tied handkerchiefs on their heads and screamed “My brain hurts”. Which is what I want to do whenever I try to decipher one of his obtuse OPs or comments.paige
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
10:05 PM
10
10
05
PM
PDT
Paige stop it I’m laughing to hard. FYI you know KF is a person of color and the handkerchief could be considered by some as a racial stereotype. I know you don’t mean it that way unfortunately our society s way too sensitive to remarks that mean no harm and I know thats not your intention Vividvividbleau
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
09:06 PM
9
09
06
PM
PDT
VB
Now that’s funny you got a big laugh out of me.
Now I have an image of KF pontificating while wearing panties and a bra over his pants and shirt. And possibly a handkerchief tied over his head. Now his comments make a lot more sense. :) :) ;)paige
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
08:41 PM
8
08
41
PM
PDT
Jerry
Survival, freedom, flourishing are not preferences. They’re innate needs. One cannot choose to have them or not to have them.
Then why is it against the law to attempt suicide? Of course they are preferences. Really Jerry, sometimes you say the most ridiculous and stupid things.paige
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
08:34 PM
8
08
34
PM
PDT
Paige “OK, we would all get very uncomfortable if we tried to put on our pants before our panties. ? But I think you understand what I mean.” Now that’s funny you got a big laugh out of me. Vividvividbleau
June 8, 2021
June
06
Jun
8
08
2021
07:43 PM
7
07
43
PM
PDT
1 2 3 44

Leave a Reply