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L&FP42: is knowledge warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief?

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It’s time to start delivering on a promise to address “warrant, knowledge, logic and first duties of reason as a cluster,” even at risk of being thought pedantic. Our civilisation is going through a crisis of confidence, down to the roots. If it is to be restored, that is where we have to start, and in the face of rampant hyperskepticism, relativism, subjectivism, emotivism, outright nihilism and irrationality, we need to have confidence regarding knowledge.

Doing my penance, I suppose: these are key issues and so here I stand, in good conscience, I can do no other, God help me.

For a start, from the days of Plato, knowledge has classically been defined as “justified, true belief.” However, in 1963, the late Mr Gettier put the cat in among the pigeons, with Gettier counter-examples; which have since been multiplied. In effect, there are circumstances (and yes, sometimes seemingly contrived, but these are instructive thought exercises) in which someone or a circle may be justified to hold a belief but on taking a wider view such cannot reasonably be held to be a case of knowledge.

As a typical thought exercise, consider a circle of soldiers and sailors on some remote Pacific island, who are eagerly awaiting a tape of a championship match sent out by the usual morale units. They get it, play it and rejoice that team A has won over team B (and the few who thought otherwise have to cough up on their bets to the contrary). Unbeknownst to them, through clerical error, it was last year’s match, which had the same A vs B match-up and more or less the same outcome. They are justified — have a right — to believe, what they believe is so, but somehow the two fail to connect leading to accidental, not reliable arrival at truth.

Knowledge must be built of sterner stuff.

Ever since, epistemology as a discipline, has struggled to rebuild a solid consensus on what knowledge is.

Plantinga weighed in with a multi-volume study, championing warrant, which(as we just noted) is at first defined by bill of requisites. That is, we start with what it must do. So, warrant — this builds on the dictionary/legal/commercial sense of a reliable guarantee of performance “as advertised” — will be whatever reliably converts beliefs we have a right to into knowledge.

The challenge being, to fill in the blank, “Warrant is: __________ .”

Plantinga then summarises, in his third volume:

The question is as old as Plato’s Theaetetus: what is it that distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief? What further quality or quantity must a true belief have, if it is to constitute knowledge? This is one of the main questions of epistemology. (No doubt that is why it is called ‘theory of knowledge’.) Along with nearly all subsequent thinkers, Plato takes it for granted that knowledge is at least true belief: you know a proposition p only if you believe it, and only if it is true. [–> I would soften to credibly, true as we often use knowledge in that softer, defeat-able sense cf Science] But Plato goes on to point out that true belief, while necessary for knowledge, is clearly not sufficient: it is entirely possible to believe something that is true without knowing it . . .

[Skipping over internalism vs externalism, Gettier, blue vs grue or bleen etc etc] Suppose we use the term ‘warrant’ to denote that further quality or quantity (perhaps it comes in degrees), whatever precisely it may be, enough of which distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief. Then our question (the subject of W[arrant and] P[roper] F[unction]): what is warrant?

My suggestion (WPF, chapters 1 and 2) begins with the idea that a belief has warrant only if it is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, subject to no disorder or dysfunction—construed as including absence of impedance as well as pathology. The notion of proper function is fundamental to our central ways of thinking about knowledge. But that notion is inextricably bound with another: that of a design plan.37

Human beings and their organs are so constructed that there is a way they should work, a way they are supposed to work, a way they work when they work right; this is the way they work when there is no malfunction . . . We needn’t initially take the notions of design plan and way in which a thing is supposed to work to entail conscious design or purpose [–> design, often is naturally evident, e.g. eyes are to see and ears to hear, both, reasonably accurately] . . .

Accordingly, the first element in our conception of warrant (so I say) is that a belief has warrant for someone only if her faculties are functioning properly, are subject to no dysfunction, in producing that belief.39 But that’s not enough.

Many systems of your body, obviously, are designed to work in a certain kind of environment . . . . this is still not enough. It is clearly possible that a belief be produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly in an environment for which they were designed, but nonetheless lack warrant; the above two conditions are not sufficient. We think that the purpose or function of our belief-producing faculties is to furnish us with true (or verisimilitudinous) belief. As we saw above in connection with the F&M complaint [= Freud and Marx], however, it is clearly possible that the purpose or function of some belief-producing faculties or mechanisms is the production of beliefs with some other virtue—perhaps that of enabling us to get along in this cold, cruel, threatening world, or of enabling us to survive a dangerous situation or a life-threatening disease.

So we must add that the belief in question is produced by cognitive faculties such that the purpose of those faculties is that of producing true belief.

More exactly, we must add that the portion of the design plan governing the production of the belief in question is aimed at the production of true belief (rather than survival, or psychological comfort, or the possibility of loyalty, or something else) . . . .

[W]hat must be added is that the design plan in question is a good one, one that is successfully aimed at truth, one such that there is a high (objective) probability that a belief produced according to that plan will be true (or nearly true). Put in a nutshell, then, a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth. We must add, furthermore, that when a belief meets these conditions and does enjoy warrant, the degree of warrant it enjoys depends on the strength of the belief, the firmness with which S holds it. This is intended as an account of the central core of our concept of warrant; there is a penumbral area surrounding the central core where there are many analogical extensions of that central core; and beyond the penumbral area, still another belt of vagueness and imprecision, a host of possible cases and circumstances where there is really no answer to the question whether a given case is or isn’t a case of warrant.41 [Warranted Christian Belief (NY/Oxford: OUP, 2000), pp 153 ff. See onward, Warrant, the Current Debate and Warrant and Proper Function; also, by Plantinga.]

So, we may profitably distinguish [a] Plantinga’s specification (bill of requisites) for warrant and [b] his theory of warrant. The latter, being (for the hard core):

a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth.

Obviously, warrant comes in degrees, which is just what we need to have. Certain things are known to utterly unchangeable certainty, others are to moral certainty, others for good reason are held to be reasonably reliable though not certain enough to trust when the stakes are high, other things are in doubt as to whether they are knowledge, some things outright fail any responsible test.

That’s why I have taken up and commend a modified form, recognising that what we think is credibly, reliably true today may oftentimes be corrected for cause tomorrow. (Back in High School Chemistry class, I used to imagine a courier arriving at the door to deliver the latest updates to our teacher.)

Yes, I accept that many knowledge claims are defeat-able, so open-ended and provisional.

Indeed, that is part of what distinguishes the prudence and fair-mindedness of sober knowledge claims hard won and held or even stoutly defended in the face of uncertainty and challenge from the false certitude of blind ideologies. Especially, where deductive logical schemes can have no stronger warrant than their underlying axioms and assumptions and where inductive warrant provides support, not utterly certain, incorrigible, absolute demonstration.

That said, we must recognise that some few things are self-evident, e.g.:

While self-evident truths cannot amount to enough to build a worldview, they can provide plumb line tests relevant to the reliability of warrant for what we accept as knowledge:

Such, of course, bring to the fore Ciceronian first duties of reason:

Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks, C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . “Law (say [“many learned men”]) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

We may readily expand such first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice. Where, it may readily be seen that the would-be objector invariably appeals to the said duties. Does s/he object, false, or doubtfully so, or errors of reason, or failure to warrant, or unfairness or the like, alike, s/he appeals to the very same duties, collapsing in self-referentiality. So, instead, let us acknowledge that these are inescapable, true, self-evident.

It may help, too to bring out first principles of right reason, such as:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Expanding as a first list:

Such enable us to better use our senses and faculties to build knowledge. END

U/D May 16, regarding the Overton window, first, just an outline:

Next, as applied:

Backgrounder, on the political spectrum:

Comments
Sandy, you are quoting stupid dictionary definitions by atheists, for atheists. Objective = what can only be identified with a fact forced by the evidence of it, resulting in a one to one corresponding model of it, in the mind Subjective = what can only be identified with a chosen opinion Chosen things, creations, are objective. Meaning they can only be identified with a fact, forced by the evidence of it. For example, to measure the circumference of the moon, the mass, what it consists of, the craters on it's surface, all these facts together make up a 1 to 1 corresponding model of the moon, in the mind. So the basic logic of objectivity is just to copy. Copy from the universe of nature, to the universe of the mind. Creators, everything on the side of what makes a choice, are subjective. Meaning they can only be identified with a chosen opinion. To say Jack is courageous, or a coward. The word courageous ,or coward ,must be chosen, and the words express who Jack is as being a decisionmaker. You look at the decisions Jack made, and then you feel what it was that made his decisions turn out the way they did. Then by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, you choose either opinion that Jack was courageous, or a coward. So the basic logic of subjectivity is that an opinion is formed by choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice. You choose the word "courageous", and the word expresses who Jack is as being a decisionmaker. By choice, an inherently subjective, spiritual creator, creates inherently objective material creations. You must memorize the creationist categories, that should have been part of your basic education, together with abc and 1+1=2. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / factmohammadnursyamsu
June 7, 2021
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Jerry, I don't think any serious person would willingly wreck his credibility like that as a joke. Coming back from where that went will not be easy. Sad. KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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KM “My consciousness is not at all objective, by definition. It is subjective. “ Certainly your thoughts, preferences, world view, etc about things are subjective but you objectively exist and your existence entails your consciousness. Without you there would be no consciousness. Vividvividbleau
June 7, 2021
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Paige “No, you challenged my response with opinion. Unless, of course, you can read the minds of Holocaust deniers.” No I did not challenge your response with opinion I challenged your response with facts. There was even an extensive libel court case brought by a Holocaust denier where all the facts were presented. To say the denier is ignorant about the facts is ludicrous. But hey if I were you I too would want to wrap this package up and send it off to the space shuttle rather than answer my question. “How in the heck can someone be honestly willfully ignorant? How can one be honestly willfully ignorant without knowing what they are honestly willfully being ignorant about?” Vividvividbleau
June 7, 2021
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Kf, Murray doesn’t believe anything he posts. He’s playing a game. You are responding to his nonsense as desired by him Occasionally a truism is accidentally included but that’s it. He is joined by others doing the same thing.jerry
June 7, 2021
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WJM, I am sorry to see where you elected to go. I simply point to the reidan common sense issue that we refrain from notions that imply grand delusion because, not least the avalanche of self-referential loss of credibility that results. As facts of life from birds and bees to hospitals and graveyards are well known to us all, I simply note that any worldview suggesting or implying that we are framework entities for any possible world to exist massively fails comparative difficulties, starting with factual adequacy. I guess I should note that no I am not committed to this being the only world within reality, but that is just a personal note. The terrible damage has been done, and you did it to yourself. There is little more to say, other than to hope for a reconsideration. KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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The inescapable ontological existential epistemological contingent assumption about the theoretical question of preference origin is
Does Murray breathe?
I just filled out my Bingo card. The other inescapable truth is the answer to the question
Is Murray a pretend Sophist?
jerry
June 7, 2021
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This makes me a necessary being.
Of course,of course...but this theory is not yours ,was given to you by fallen angels. If you would have been a necessary being you wouldn't need fallen angels to teach you nothing.Sandy
June 7, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, Jerry above showed our contingent dependence on food, water and air. Likewise, we had a definite beginning, often marked by birth date, less seven to nine or so months. Like a fire, we are not causally independent of other things and we are not part of the fabric for any world to be possible. Our contingency is not in doubt. KF
This is an example of what I'm talking about when I say that your epistemology extends from an unrecognized, assumed ontology. You're talking about what is observable from your current perspective, which does not bind nor can presume to describe the full nature of my existence. My existence could precede my entry into this world at conception or birth or sometime in-between. Does the sun come into existence at the horizon in the east, and go out of existence at the western horizon? Your own ontology says I will continue to exist after death, so death does not represent the end of existence. Many ontologies have that our existence precedes birth, including my own ontology. You say my existence is not necessary in all possible worlds, but that is a poorly-worded statement. In the set off "all possible worlds," my existence as a potential being in a potential world is in fact necessary, because all possibilities exist as possibilities - not in every single possible world, but in the full set of all possible worlds. Your ontology is that only one possible world actually exists. My ontology is that all possible worlds actually exist. This makes me a necessary being.William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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Kairosfocus WJM, Jerry above showed our contingent dependence on food, water and air. Likewise, we had a definite beginning, often marked by birth date, less seven to nine or so months. Like a fire, we are not causally independent of other things and we are not part of the fabric for any world to be possible. Our contingency is not in doubt. KF
Even WJM is wrong ,he is in his rights(free will-given by God) to reject anything he wants.Sandy
June 7, 2021
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Our contingency is not in doubt
He'll be back with more nonsense. It's an existential need that is apparently peculiar to many but the particular contrariness is something that is learned as opposed to built it. Being contrary is something that is fairly common so maybe/probably it is in the nature of us. Which is why we as a species have uniquely progressed. But for some being contrary seems be a goal in itself as opposed to a means to progress.jerry
June 7, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu Presenting the evidence that morality is subjective, and that objective morality is actually the main cause of immoral behaviour, by a reasonable subjective judgement.
objective =expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations subjective= relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or statesSandy
June 7, 2021
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WJM, Jerry above showed our contingent dependence on food, water and air. Likewise, we had a definite beginning, often marked by birth date, less seven to nine or so months. Like a fire, we are not causally independent of other things and we are not part of the fabric for any world to be possible. Our contingency is not in doubt. KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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Presenting the evidence that morality is subjective, and that objective morality is actually the main cause of immoral behaviour, by a reasonable subjective judgement. 1. Scripture states that the original sin, is to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which means to make good and evil to be an objective fact, is the sin amongst sins, the original sin. When good and evil are made a fact, then we are just calculating a course of action, as like a chesscomputer calcultes a move, using the facts about what is good and evil, to automatically evaluate options. So there is no conscience in it, no reference to the spirit, no real choice, it is only calculation. 2. Nazi ideology presents an objective morality based on natrual selection theory. Nazi ideology asserts a factual outlook on life, which adapts itself to circumstances. The main foundation is the perception of the unlikeness of man, particularly in regards to personal character. Which personal character they assert can be estabilished as a matter of fact of biology. Then biological selection is extended to "socialist selection", which meant "wiping out the less worthy". The notion of subjectivity of nazi's is like, Aryans have this opinion, and Jews have that opinion. It is not, people can choose this or that opinon. The opinions of people are a forced consequence of their biological nature. So really, the nazi's objectified subjectivity itself. So it is shown that objective morality was at the basis of nazism, which nazism is reasonable judged by subjective judgement to be horrific. 3. Facebook is awash with atheists who assert that emotions can be measured in the brain with an mri, as a matter of objective scientific fact. Consequently subjectivity, statements about beauty and such, become to be a subcategory of objectivity, namely objective facts about particular brainstates. To say a painting is beautiful, then becomes to be a statement of fact that a love for the way the painting looks, exists in the brain. So then atheists are also forced into an objective morality, same as nazism. But with generally more flexibilty than nazism. The morality is then a function of what people factually consist of, ie the morality is a function of the objective / factual love in their brain. So there is generally overhelming evidence that objective morality is by reasonable subjective judgement totally horrific. Ofcourse the evidence here is subjective. It is just the opinion that the holocaust was horrific. If one doesn't find the holocaust to be horrific, then it would not be evidence that objective morality is horrific. The creationist conceptual scheme proves that morality is subjective. Because moral statements are in respect to the spirit, which spirit is inherently objective. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / factmohammadnursyamsu
June 7, 2021
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A requirement for continued living does not represent a duty to do so
More absurdly. It most certainly does represent a duty. The need for continued living/existence comes from the nature of the species. It is built in. What is required to meet this existential need of the species is an obligatory requirement or duty. Aside: people get caught in the trap of their own non-sequiturs so they the try to wiggle their way out by redefining words from their common meaning. Just adding more absurdly to their remarks.jerry
June 7, 2021
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Jerry said:
You breathe, drink and eat to stay alive. They are self evident and duties and are the inescapably obvious result of our/your nature.
Because I must eat and drink to stay alive (at least in this world) doesn't mean I have a duty to eat or drink or stay alive.
If you did not feel required to do all these required activities (duties), we would be spared all your nonsense.
A requirement for continued living does not represent a duty to do so.William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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KF said:
But we are contingent creatures,..
Bald assertion.
And, though you struggle mightily with it, so does moral absurdity.
An amoral world comprised of sentient beings is not an absurdity in any sense of the word.
For example it is manifestly a great injustice, a violation of duty, to ...
Only if you believe in "justice" and "duty," which I do not. You don't succeed at establishing "justice" or "duty" out of feelings.
Evasions, as we can see aplenty, imply cognitive dissonance between this recognition of the reasonable person ...
Mind reading and armchair psychology.
and some crooked yardstick a priori that it highlights as a genuine unfortunately real world yardstick case.
Feelings are not universal yardsticks or plumb lines.
The plumb line that tests both is duty to the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights freedoms and responsibilities. KFM
Asserting your perspective and belief in things like existential justice, rights, freedoms and responsibilities does not reveal that perspective as a universal plumb line, nor does it make my perspective a "crooked yardstick."William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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As I pointed out above, moral duties are not self-evident because they are not inescapably necessary across all possible sentient-being ontologies;
Obvious nonsense. You breathe, drink and eat to stay alive. They are self evident and duties and are the inescapably obvious result of our/your nature. If you did not feel required to do all these required activities (duties), we would be spared all your nonsense. Aside: they are not the only required activities for staying alive. Thus, there are numerous other duties. Aside2: we would also be spared a lot of nonsense by people not feeling the need to continually answer nonsense which then begets an endless chain of nonsense.jerry
June 7, 2021
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To reiterate some arguments I've already made about duty: 1. As I pointed out above, moral duties are not self-evident because they are not inescapably necessary across all possible sentient-being ontologies; 2. A duty can only be said to exist where behavior is not inescapable, so the case for duties must be made separate from inescapable behaviors, like fundamental use of logic and inescapable use of truth statements. 3. I cannot be said to be acting out of, in reference to, or in defiance of a duty I do not know I have; 4. Even if I acknowledge a duty, that duty is meaningless sophistry without consequences; 5. To make a rational decision about whether or not to act in accordance with a duty, I must know the consequences pro or con; 6. In order for me to make the decision to fulfill my duty, the consequence for fulfilling it must be preferable to the consequences for not fulfilling it; 7. Therefore, the choice to fulfill (or not fulfill) a duty requires (1) my knowledge of both the duties and the consequences and (2) my preference for one consequence over the other. 8. For a proposed existential duty, the consequences must be existential and inescapable. When KF makes an argument for existential duties without appeals to inescapable behaviors and inescapable truth telling, AND makes the case for inescapable consequences pro and con where I will prefer one over the other, AND either makes that case in terms of "inescapability across all possible ontologies" or that this is the actual ontology we exist in/under making his duties necessary aspects of the particular conditions of this actual ontological existence, then he'll have a significant case for existential moral duties.William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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WJM So, KF is 100% wrong about that, period. He cannot be right.
Thank you for your wonderful feel of duty to tell us the objective truth that is no feel of duty. Hahaha!Sandy
June 7, 2021
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A video just out this morning on the natural law and behavior.
For all of recorded history, the need to explain why fathers are necessary would have been regarded as, well, unnecessary. It would have been like explaining why water, or air, is necessary. But we live at a time in which the obvious is routinely denied.
https://www.prageru.com/video/are-fathers-necessary/ One of many presentations that has appeared over the years indicating that the obvious is routinely denied. Another from 5 years ago. https://www.prageru.com/video/black-fathers-matter/ UD is an extremely small microcosm of the world but it too attracts the dysfunctional mind as we see reading a lot of recent OP’s. The real question is have these dysfunctional minds always existed? And were they just never given a platform till the internet? Or has something else happened to create more dysfunctional minds?jerry
June 7, 2021
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Again, one of the big problems with communicating about morality is the conflation of "universal morality" with "objective morality." Many moralities objectively exist; the question is whether or not those varied objective moralities all exist in relation to a universal morality, which would be the benchmark for figuring out which objective morality most accurately represents the universal morality. Subjective morality, though, IMO is an irrational phrase, and this is revealed by the kind of argument VB is making. People naturally resist accepting that their subjective morality = personal preference because this leaves them no means by which to label the behavior of others as morally wrong. This is hammered down as evident when "subjective moralists" are presented with either the Holocaust or "tortured children" examples; few people are willing to say "there's nothing morally wrong with that behavior." Now, one can make arguments that such behavior is "wrong" outside of moral considerations, but all of those arguments take the form of non-preferential consequences from the perspective of the person saying that behavior is "wrong." The "wrongness" of the thing, outside of either objective or universal moralities, always boils down to personal preferences, either direct or abstract.William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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Now, I get to where I'm trying to support KF's argument. He can make the case that in the ontology we actually exist in, moral duty is a necessary truth even if it is not a self-evident truth. Necessary truths about the nature of things in an actual world (ontological qualities that can be understood as necessary in that existent world) must be derived from the conditions of that actual world because they are not self-evidently true (not applicable to all possible ontologies.) So, moral duty might be a necessary truth about our actual world, but that would require actual ontological conditions necessary to provide for moral duties that are not discoverable as self-evidently true. How do you establish that the conditions that provide for moral duties exist? IOW, how do you show that this actual world has in it the conditions which provide for existential moral duties? But, you and KF have taken a different strategy, I believe because you cannot successfully argue that the conditions that provide for moral duties actually exist, because none of that is actually self-evidently true. That strategy is the assertion that moral duties themselves are self-evidently true, but IMO the way you and KF try to make that case, either by intuition or the way KF does (which I've listed the logical faults of several times,) is either just bad logic or woefully insufficient. BA77 at least attempts to make the case that the conditions that provide for moral duties actually exist, especially in his arguments about the Shroud of Turin and black holes. KF claims that I am acting in reference to an existential duty, whether I know it or not, or have agreed to it or not. I cannot be acting in reference to, or out of, a duty, without at least knowing what my duty is. Any act that can be said in reference to, or out of, or in defiance of a duty, at least requires me knowing what the duty is. Even if duties exist that I am unaware of, ***I*** cannot be acting in reference to, out of, or in defiance of a duty unless ***I*** know what that duty is. Yes, ignorance of the law doesn't allow you to escape the consequences of your unlawful actions, but if I am ignorant of the law, it cannot be said that my choices are made by me in reference to, out of, or in defiance of a law I don't even know exists or a duty I don't even know I have. I myself cannot be acting out of or in reference to duties I don't even know I have. So, KF is 100% wrong about that, period. He cannot be right.William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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WJM, it is a classic, directly self-evident truth that a self aware individual exists, i.e. consciousness is self evident truth. But we are contingent creatures, so self evidence is not tied to necessary being. That is a further step, entities necessary for any world to be. Truths do connect to a given possible world, as accurate decriptions of states of affairs. Self evident truths are a sub class, truths that once one is able to understand, will be recognised as true and necessarily so on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. Not self contradiction, absurdity. Self discredit as under grand delusion counts. So does being an inescapable feature of reasoned thought or argument, e.g. the LOI etc. And, though you struggle mightily with it, so does moral absurdity. For example it is manifestly a great injustice, a violation of duty, to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a child on the way home from school. Denial does not entail incoherence or even grand delusion, but it does imply being monstrous. Evasions, as we can see aplenty, imply cognitive dissonance between this recognition of the reasonable person and some crooked yardstick a priori that it highlights as a genuine unfortunately real world yardstick case. The plumb line that tests both is duty to the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights freedoms and responsibilities. KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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VB
You made a claim,I asked a question about your claim., you appealed to ignorance, I challenged your position with facts
No, you challenged my response with opinion. Unless, of course, you can read the minds of Holocaust deniers.paige
June 7, 2021
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SB: I really appreciate your contributions above. This morning I was trying to think of ways you and KF could be right, and it led me to what you might call an epiphany about self-evident true statements, ontology and epistemology. True statements are always about ontological entities or qualities, or at least proposed ontological entities and qualities, such as "I exist," A=A, and 2+2 =4. When I took your side in mind, I realized, I cannot even identify an ontological entity without the capacity to make some sort of true statement about it. This is when I realized what a self-evidently true statement really was, and how it could be understood as such: self-evidently true statements are where ontology and epistemology are inescapably welded together and cannot exist apart from each other. IOW, a self-evidently true statement is necessarily true in every possible ontology. They are statements about every possible ontology because they identify ontological entities, such as "I," or ontological qualities, such as A=A, that are inescapably true. So, neither ontology or epistemology precede each other at the point of a self-evident truth; there, they cannot be parted from each other. This is why the contrary of an actual self-evident truth is a logical absurdity; they are true in every possible ontology because they identify inescapable ontological entities or qualities. Moral duties are not self-evidently true because even KF would agree, they are not inescapably necessary aspects of all possible ontologies. Even if we are created by a good God as moral entities with duties, that is not the only possible ontology, even if all other possible ontologies are not actual. It may be factually true that we all have existential moral duties. This may be why virtually everyone reacts the way they do to certain events, proposed or actual. However, moral duties are not self-evidently true because the are not inescapably, necessarily true in every possible ontology. Edited to add: The above should be recognized to mean: in all possible ontologies where conscious, sentient beings exist or can exist in. William J Murray
June 7, 2021
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Vivid, there is such a thing as willful, culpable ignorance due to refusing to acknowledge what you should know. This is often a motive for hyperskeptical rhetorical tactics. And not just for louts trying to model Hitler as a champion of western civilisation and a champion of the "white" -- oops, "Aryan" [Madam Blavatsky . . . ] -- race. Jews, BTW, manifestly are "white." So are many hispanics. I had a cousin whose US ID classified her as White! (She looked Hispanic, thanks to classic St Elizabeth mixup.) KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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KM, I leave you to SB for most of your exchange with him, I will note on:
[KM to SB:] If KF is making the claim that his moral intuitions are “self-evident” because the creator programmed them into his brain to see them as such, then he is special indeed, (Too bad not everyone is like that.) But his programming would be useless to anyone who doesn’t share his programming, unless he could demonstrate some benefit that appeals to others even if they do not perceive such a self-evident truth.
I clip and comment: >>If KF is making the claim that his moral intuitions are “self-evident” because the creator programmed them into his brain to see them as such, then he is special indeed,>> 1: Nowhere have I claimed or implied such, you are setting up and knocking over a strawman caricature. 2: You will note that I do not normally speak of intuitions, as that invites inferences of a mysterious occult power only certain adepts have that makes their claims above normal reasoning. Which, of course, is exactly the strawman you target. 3: I do acknowledge that we can be directly aware of our conscious existence, of our perceptions [I am appeared to redly and roundly by a certain object sensed in my visual field, or I can imagine such], thoughts, intent and that nagging little voice of conscience. 4: Such realities may or may not be veridical, in terms of specific contents, under various conditions but I also point to the Reidian, common sense point that we cannot allow grand delusion, error is either limited or rationality evaporates. 5: Specifically, being conscious is pervasive and a first truth, a self-evident truth. All other truths, thoughts, awareness etc comes through this. 6: That establishes that there is a possibility of a subject to accurately and even certainly perceive truth, and to warrant such objectively. Even, to self-evident, utter certainty. 7: The notion, perceived by an error-prone subject -- and, that error exists is an undeniable, self-evident truth also -- so suspect, evaporates. What is required is warrant, much as Plantinga argued and I modified for the weak knowledge case. 8: Notice, I adjusted Cicero, to duty to SOUND conscience, i.e. duties to truth, right reason and prudence [including warrant] affect how we respond to the built in voice of conscience. Conscience is not a creator of morality but a compass that, where sound, responds aptly to duty. >> (Too bad not everyone is like that.)>> 9: Strawman already corrected. >> But his programming>> 10: Programming is the very opposite of rational, necessarily freely made inference. 11: Indeed, let us augment: >>the creator programmed them into his brain>>, shows that you fail to understand that the brain is a computational substrate and as such cannot be the seat of free rational inference. 12: Brains and PCs or analogue computers alike work from cause-effect chains tied to present state, organisation, input and noise leading to next state, they are not relevant to freely made ground-consequent inferences or evidence-cogency-support inductive judgements. 13: Many times, I have pointed to Eng Derek Smith's two tier controller, cybernetic loop model as a suitable context for discussiuon. 14: Under this model, the brain and CNS are in the loop i/o controllers with proprioception, tied to a higher order supervisor, the true seat of free volitional thought and action, even so mundane an action as typing out a comment. Quantum influences have been suggested as interface. 15: TL;DR: brain/CNS programming is irrelevant to rational conduct, it is confusing an in the loop i/o controller with the supervisory mind. >> would be useless to anyone who doesn’t share his programming>> 16: Programming is blind, GIGO-limited and inherently dynamic-stochastic, as opposed to rationally, responsibly, significantly free. Programs work because someone has done an adequate design and debugging job, they have no inherent reliability. >>, unless he could demonstrate some benefit that appeals to others even if they do not perceive such a self-evident truth. >> 17: Knocking over a strawman, distractive from the true issue on the table. 18: Distractive, insistently, after many opportunities to address the substantial matter and not a few specific correctives. 19: Persistence in such is diagnostic of crooked yardsticks being used to try to dismiss the message of a plumb line: not true [straight], not upright. KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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KM, you, unsurprisingly, continued to . . . deny. In so doing, you claimed that a certain state of affairs is the case: "I have no natural duty to other humans" and "Nothing you or brother Cicero wrote demonstrates otherwise." Subtext one: it is the truth that X, and you have a duty to said truth. Subtext two: I, Cicero and others have duties to warrant and to right reason, which of course extends to you as a fellow human being. As to "I don’t have any duties at all, except to the ones I willfully obligate myself to," so soon as you seek to gain advantage of civil society, even this online forum, you have consented to lawful limits relative to the anarchic state of nature, as Webster summarised in 1828, echoing Locke et al. So, you have only managed yet again to show the inescapable authority of first duties of reason, further illustrating that they are first principles that pervade reason and govern it. Further, your appeal to the will indicates resistance to the self evidence that your own arguments yet again exemplify. It would be amusing, if it were not sad. KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2021
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Subjective morality exists.
You can't spot about morality that is subjective unless you have the standard/norm to compare to. That standard is called objective morality. :) When you say subjective x exists you admit objective x exist .Sandy
June 7, 2021
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