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L&FP42: is knowledge warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief?

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Defending our Civilization
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It’s time to start delivering on a promise to address “warrant, knowledge, logic and first duties of reason as a cluster,” even at risk of being thought pedantic. Our civilisation is going through a crisis of confidence, down to the roots. If it is to be restored, that is where we have to start, and in the face of rampant hyperskepticism, relativism, subjectivism, emotivism, outright nihilism and irrationality, we need to have confidence regarding knowledge.

Doing my penance, I suppose: these are key issues and so here I stand, in good conscience, I can do no other, God help me.

For a start, from the days of Plato, knowledge has classically been defined as “justified, true belief.” However, in 1963, the late Mr Gettier put the cat in among the pigeons, with Gettier counter-examples; which have since been multiplied. In effect, there are circumstances (and yes, sometimes seemingly contrived, but these are instructive thought exercises) in which someone or a circle may be justified to hold a belief but on taking a wider view such cannot reasonably be held to be a case of knowledge.

As a typical thought exercise, consider a circle of soldiers and sailors on some remote Pacific island, who are eagerly awaiting a tape of a championship match sent out by the usual morale units. They get it, play it and rejoice that team A has won over team B (and the few who thought otherwise have to cough up on their bets to the contrary). Unbeknownst to them, through clerical error, it was last year’s match, which had the same A vs B match-up and more or less the same outcome. They are justified — have a right — to believe, what they believe is so, but somehow the two fail to connect leading to accidental, not reliable arrival at truth.

Knowledge must be built of sterner stuff.

Ever since, epistemology as a discipline, has struggled to rebuild a solid consensus on what knowledge is.

Plantinga weighed in with a multi-volume study, championing warrant, which(as we just noted) is at first defined by bill of requisites. That is, we start with what it must do. So, warrant — this builds on the dictionary/legal/commercial sense of a reliable guarantee of performance “as advertised” — will be whatever reliably converts beliefs we have a right to into knowledge.

The challenge being, to fill in the blank, “Warrant is: __________ .”

Plantinga then summarises, in his third volume:

The question is as old as Plato’s Theaetetus: what is it that distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief? What further quality or quantity must a true belief have, if it is to constitute knowledge? This is one of the main questions of epistemology. (No doubt that is why it is called ‘theory of knowledge’.) Along with nearly all subsequent thinkers, Plato takes it for granted that knowledge is at least true belief: you know a proposition p only if you believe it, and only if it is true. [–> I would soften to credibly, true as we often use knowledge in that softer, defeat-able sense cf Science] But Plato goes on to point out that true belief, while necessary for knowledge, is clearly not sufficient: it is entirely possible to believe something that is true without knowing it . . .

[Skipping over internalism vs externalism, Gettier, blue vs grue or bleen etc etc] Suppose we use the term ‘warrant’ to denote that further quality or quantity (perhaps it comes in degrees), whatever precisely it may be, enough of which distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief. Then our question (the subject of W[arrant and] P[roper] F[unction]): what is warrant?

My suggestion (WPF, chapters 1 and 2) begins with the idea that a belief has warrant only if it is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, subject to no disorder or dysfunction—construed as including absence of impedance as well as pathology. The notion of proper function is fundamental to our central ways of thinking about knowledge. But that notion is inextricably bound with another: that of a design plan.37

Human beings and their organs are so constructed that there is a way they should work, a way they are supposed to work, a way they work when they work right; this is the way they work when there is no malfunction . . . We needn’t initially take the notions of design plan and way in which a thing is supposed to work to entail conscious design or purpose [–> design, often is naturally evident, e.g. eyes are to see and ears to hear, both, reasonably accurately] . . .

Accordingly, the first element in our conception of warrant (so I say) is that a belief has warrant for someone only if her faculties are functioning properly, are subject to no dysfunction, in producing that belief.39 But that’s not enough.

Many systems of your body, obviously, are designed to work in a certain kind of environment . . . . this is still not enough. It is clearly possible that a belief be produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly in an environment for which they were designed, but nonetheless lack warrant; the above two conditions are not sufficient. We think that the purpose or function of our belief-producing faculties is to furnish us with true (or verisimilitudinous) belief. As we saw above in connection with the F&M complaint [= Freud and Marx], however, it is clearly possible that the purpose or function of some belief-producing faculties or mechanisms is the production of beliefs with some other virtue—perhaps that of enabling us to get along in this cold, cruel, threatening world, or of enabling us to survive a dangerous situation or a life-threatening disease.

So we must add that the belief in question is produced by cognitive faculties such that the purpose of those faculties is that of producing true belief.

More exactly, we must add that the portion of the design plan governing the production of the belief in question is aimed at the production of true belief (rather than survival, or psychological comfort, or the possibility of loyalty, or something else) . . . .

[W]hat must be added is that the design plan in question is a good one, one that is successfully aimed at truth, one such that there is a high (objective) probability that a belief produced according to that plan will be true (or nearly true). Put in a nutshell, then, a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth. We must add, furthermore, that when a belief meets these conditions and does enjoy warrant, the degree of warrant it enjoys depends on the strength of the belief, the firmness with which S holds it. This is intended as an account of the central core of our concept of warrant; there is a penumbral area surrounding the central core where there are many analogical extensions of that central core; and beyond the penumbral area, still another belt of vagueness and imprecision, a host of possible cases and circumstances where there is really no answer to the question whether a given case is or isn’t a case of warrant.41 [Warranted Christian Belief (NY/Oxford: OUP, 2000), pp 153 ff. See onward, Warrant, the Current Debate and Warrant and Proper Function; also, by Plantinga.]

So, we may profitably distinguish [a] Plantinga’s specification (bill of requisites) for warrant and [b] his theory of warrant. The latter, being (for the hard core):

a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth.

Obviously, warrant comes in degrees, which is just what we need to have. Certain things are known to utterly unchangeable certainty, others are to moral certainty, others for good reason are held to be reasonably reliable though not certain enough to trust when the stakes are high, other things are in doubt as to whether they are knowledge, some things outright fail any responsible test.

That’s why I have taken up and commend a modified form, recognising that what we think is credibly, reliably true today may oftentimes be corrected for cause tomorrow. (Back in High School Chemistry class, I used to imagine a courier arriving at the door to deliver the latest updates to our teacher.)

Yes, I accept that many knowledge claims are defeat-able, so open-ended and provisional.

Indeed, that is part of what distinguishes the prudence and fair-mindedness of sober knowledge claims hard won and held or even stoutly defended in the face of uncertainty and challenge from the false certitude of blind ideologies. Especially, where deductive logical schemes can have no stronger warrant than their underlying axioms and assumptions and where inductive warrant provides support, not utterly certain, incorrigible, absolute demonstration.

That said, we must recognise that some few things are self-evident, e.g.:

While self-evident truths cannot amount to enough to build a worldview, they can provide plumb line tests relevant to the reliability of warrant for what we accept as knowledge:

Such, of course, bring to the fore Ciceronian first duties of reason:

Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks, C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . “Law (say [“many learned men”]) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

We may readily expand such first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice. Where, it may readily be seen that the would-be objector invariably appeals to the said duties. Does s/he object, false, or doubtfully so, or errors of reason, or failure to warrant, or unfairness or the like, alike, s/he appeals to the very same duties, collapsing in self-referentiality. So, instead, let us acknowledge that these are inescapable, true, self-evident.

It may help, too to bring out first principles of right reason, such as:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Expanding as a first list:

Such enable us to better use our senses and faculties to build knowledge. END

U/D May 16, regarding the Overton window, first, just an outline:

Next, as applied:

Backgrounder, on the political spectrum:

Comments
If you want to say that it is self-evident that everyone seeks them, I wouldn’t disagree. But a self-evident goal doesn’t make it a self-evident right. I think it is self-evident that humans seek respect and companionship from others. But respect and companionship aren’t self-evident rights.
One of the more gibberish statements I have seen but you have made previous such nonsense statements. Which I also called gibberish because they were vacuous. The real question is why say such irrelevant nonsense? By the way you accidentally made some sense and my guess didn’t know it and just abrogated Joe Biden’s economic plans. Which I agree are also nonsense.jerry
June 6, 2021
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Jerry
They flow from the nature of human beings. Yes, they are self evident. Everyone seeks them.
If you want to say that it is self-evident that everyone seeks them, I wouldn’t disagree. But a self-evident goal doesn’t make it a self-evident right. I think it is self-evident that humans seek respect and companionship from others. But respect and companionship aren’t self-evident rights.paige
June 6, 2021
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The only fundamental self-evident truth, for me, is that I exist.
Another incredibly inane response. Do you breathe? Do you drink? Do you eat? If you do all of these three things you are acknowledging a fundamental natural law. Survival. You want to stay alive. If the answer is yes, you just admitted to a self evident moral truth.jerry
June 6, 2021
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Jerry, the objections reflect ideological commitments that cannot allow objectivity much les warranted utter certainty. Of course, the current focus is to segregate objective truths regarding duty from other objective truths, neatly overlooking that our whole rational life is inescapably -- we see it even in attempted objections -- governed by first duties. As for, oh what are self evident moral truths, several have been on the table, from first principles to particular cases. It is clearly absurd to deny that it is a serious violation of duties of justice to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a child on the way home from school. It is equally absurd to implicitly appeal to first duties of reason to try to overturn such duties or evade them. But, the ideologies have been deeply entrenched. Similarly, the POINT of a SET is that it is antecedent to construction of inferential arguments much less elaboration of worldviews, so to try to rhetorically put the ontological cart before the first truths that ground our approach to reasoning is at least as absurd. However, it is a way to try to wedge in worldview commitments or ideology to make them less open to the test of plumb line first truths. KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2021
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Paige Now that I better understand the nature of your question. I hope you are sitting down...regarding the sacrificing of children to achieve a good harvest. Would I view that practice as right or wrong I too don’t know. I would hope I would see it as wrong because it is However regardless of my view if I was living at that time it does not make it so!!! My beliefs are either objectively true or they are not regardless of my perspective. Viividvividbleau
June 6, 2021
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The only fundamental self-evident truth, for me, is that I exist. I am something that I observe to be the case every waking moment, that I confirm all the time I am conscious. It is at least a fact by Gould's definition in that it is "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." Moral prescriptions are not about what is but what ought to be, more specifically about how human beings ought to behave towards one another. They are neither true nor false because they are not claims about the nature of observable reality. They cannot be confirmed or disconfirmed by comparing them to what they purport to describe. Shouldn't a self-evident truth be one which is apparent to any intelligent being capable of understanding it, not just humans? We can be unanimous in regarding the rape and murder of a human child by a human adult as an act of unmitigated evil but would that necessarily true for some alien intelligence? What makes me wary of claims about self-evident truths is that sometimes it appears to be a device for insulating a claim from challenge, from the requirement for explanation and justification.Seversky
June 6, 2021
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but I do t see them as self-evident truths.
They flow from the nature of human beings. Yes, they are self evident. Everyone seeks them. Your objections are vacuous. Why make such inane objections to the obvious. That’s the interesting question.jerry
June 6, 2021
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Jerry
One could argue that not killing another being is not a self evident truth because someone had killed someone without justification. Hey, somebody did it so it must be ok. It’s what some people do.
And duels were tolerated well after the DOI was signed. Capital punishment is still used in a few states. The US still engages in war and seeks out and kills terrorist leaders. For something that is self-evident, we certainly justify many loopholes. Again, I think that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are laudable goals, but I do t see them as self-evident truths.paige
June 6, 2021
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But are they self-evident truths?
Yes, they are self evident and moral truths. Regardless of what Jefferson did. One could argue that not killing another being is not a self evident truth because someone had killed someone without justification. Hey, somebody did it so it must be ok. It’s what some people do.jerry
June 6, 2021
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WjM “If I lived in an area of the country where this pronoun stuff was going on, I’d just start referring to everyone as “it.”” I was being sarcastic obviously did a poor job of it LOL Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2021
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Jerry
So are these self evident truths both self evident and moral?
Jerry, I think you said it correctly earlier in your comment. They are goals. Laudable goals in my opinion. Sound goals on. which to base a fair and just society on. Goals that can be used to ground OUGHT. But are they self-evident truths? Given that Jefferson owned approximately 175 slaves, it is obvious he didn’t believe that these truths applied to everyone.
Similar ideas have been presented here by Kf snd others before but apparently ignored. My guess is that these will be continually ignored.
I have to admit that when KF posts very long comments with various quotes, followed by multiple F/N, as seen just above, I tend to ignore them. I do not come here to listen to lectures, as these are. I come here to have interesting discussions as I have had on several occasions with you, Vividbleu, Viola Lee, WJM and others. To be bluntly honest, I find it difficult to get past KF’s often condescending tone and motive mongering. I am sure that he may have some very good points but, frankly, they lose credibility with the way he presents them.paige
June 6, 2021
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VB
Ahhh I see ok i can understand why you thought I was trying to score unwarranted rhetorical points.. As I said that was not my intent.
Not a problem. We all unintentionally misinterpret things. That is why it is important to try to clarify rather than get mad.paige
June 6, 2021
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when I don’t believe that anyone has claimed that they don’t exist
Then state some self evident truths (SET)
only thing where there is disagreement over SET are the specific individual things, such as moral values and right and wrong, that KF claims are SET.
From Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
So we have three objectives for humans here, life, freedom and flourishing. When we interfere with these goals unreasonably are we committing immoral acts? When we help in achieving these goals are we committing moral acts. The two main people behind these words were Franklin and of course Jefferson. They were well thought out. So are these self evident truths both self evident and moral? Similar ideas have been presented here by Kf snd others before but apparently ignored. My guess is that these will be continually ignored.jerry
June 6, 2021
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Paige “Again, that is not the question I responded “I don’t know” to. Your question was “if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong?” You were asking what my view would be about killing Jewish children if I were brought under those conditions. And, as I was not brought up under those conditions, I don’t know what my view would be on the subject.” Ahhh I see ok i can understand why you thought I was trying to score unwarranted rhetorical points.. As I said that was not my intent. Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2021
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WJM re 1051 Beautifully written!! Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2021
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VB
Your position is that perspective determines the rightness of an action.
For the individual person. It is not necessarily transferable to others. For example, from my “perspective”, same sex marriage is not wrong. I could go on and detail the reasons, but that is not relevant. There are others, for their own reasons, who believe that it is wrong. Which view prevails depends on who has the most persuasive argument, or who has the biggest hammer. This disagreement is completely independent on whether or not their is an overriding objective moral truth on the issue.
Himmlers perspective and the perspective of the Nazi culture was that they were right.
Perspectives are individual. I can accept that Himmler believed he was right. Although it is possible that he believed he was wrong but did it to curry favor with Hitler. But all you can say about Nazi culture is than there were individuals within it that believed it was right.
To say you “don’t know “ when you know their perspective and their perspective determines rightness means you do know.
Again, that is not the question I responded “I don’t know” to. Your question was “if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong?” You were asking what my view would be about killing Jewish children if I were brought under those conditions. And, as I was not brought up under those conditions, I don’t know what my view would be on the subject. Perhaps an example that hits closer to home might clarify. I personally believe that slavery is wrong. As, I am sure, you do. But, if I were raised on a plantation in the antebellum south, and my family profited heavily because of the ownership of slaves, would my antebellum self believe that slavery was wrong? Again, the only honest answer I could give would be “I don’t know”. I hope this made my view clearer.paige
June 6, 2021
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Paige “But that wasn’t the question you asked, was it. Please don’t play these misrepresentation games to score rhetorical points. You are usually better than that.” Honestly the last thing I want to do is misrepresent your position and it was not my intent but I am unclear exactly where I did that. Your position is that perspective determines the rightness of an action. Himmlers perspective and the perspective of the Nazi culture was that they were right . To say you “don’t know “ when you know their perspective and their perspective determines rightness means you do know. You know they were right. So how have I misrepresented you? Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2021
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KF has spent thousands of words defending the existence of self-evident truths when I don’t believe that anyone has claimed that they don’t exist. The only thing where there is disagreement over SET are the specific individual things, such as moral values and right and wrong, that KF claims are SET.paige
June 6, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu @1103: Thanks for providing that link. I can't say that as written, I disagree with anything there. In fact, it corresponds (so far as I've read) almost perfectly to my own "Idealism" reality theory (IRT.) I think any differences might just be semantics and different ways of conceptualizing the same thing - give, I'm just now reading some of the basics.William J Murray
June 6, 2021
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VB
Vivid: If I understand you correctly perspective determines what is right or wrong.
Not quite. I think you are using the terms right and wrong as absolutes, objectively true. I am not. Perspective determines what an individual feels is right and wrong. But, as WJM correctly pointed out, this depends on how you define “perspective”. I am using it here as the sum of all the factors involved in creating our worldview.
From his perspective [Himmler’s] he was right.
Obviously we cannot know for certain what Himmler truly believed, but I think that is a fair statement.
From the culture perspective he was right.
No. Only individuals can discern what they believe is right or wrong from their perspective. I apologize if the way I have phrased things led you to believe that I believed otherwise. If enough individuals share the same conclusions of right and wrong, these values become enshrined in law. The exception would be in authoritarian regimes, where the “beloved leader” controls what gets enshrined in law.
From your own words he and the Nazi culture was right to kill Jewish children.
Again, you are extrapolating individual views of right and wrong to an objective moral truth about right and wrong. I don’t believe the latter exists.paige
June 6, 2021
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SB said:
Irrelevant to the topic on the table. What matters here is the order of events.
I'm not sure that's "what matters here," but okay, let's assume it is.
In your accusations against KF, you characterize his ontological perspective as his first consideration and, therefore, the foundation for everything else that follows. That is not the case.
I'm not sure what you mean by "accusations," but okay. I don't think I said that his ontology was the foundation for everything else; I think I stated that his epistemology is derived from his ontology. If I did say that I'd have to read the context.
I am pointing out that it is his intuitive knowledge of a self-evident truth that comes first and that his ontological perspective comes second.
Recognizing self-evident truths, such as the principles of logic, do not represent either an ontology or an epistemology, but rather are the necessary and inescapable tools required to build ontologies and epistemologies.
You are, therefore, misrepresenting his position,.
Perhaps I did, I don't remember everything I said and in what context. If I said his recognition of the principles of logic or his intuition of duty relied on his ontology, that may have been a mistake on my part. I'll return to this at the end of this comment. Even so, his argument faces multiple problems I've outlined regardless of how he came to his ontological and epistemological arrangement. Let's say he intuited that he has existential duties with the same force that he intuited the principles of logic, meaning he knows everyone necessarily acts on these duties, just as everyone necessarily employs logic in all they do and say. The problem is that these two things - duties and logic - do not have the same quality of the contrary being an absurdity. One cannot even argue against without using it. IOW, I am always using logic regardless what I think or say or do even in an attempt to think or say or do otherwise. Yes, I can use misuse logic, but even in the misuse, I'm still using it. It is inescapable. But, to have equal "self-evident" force, what does it mean to "misuse" duty? Or to fail to do your duty? Is KF's argument that even when we fail in doing our duty, we are still fulfilling our duty? I don't think that's it. Or, even when we fail, still trying to do a duty? Or still acting out of a sense of duty, even when we refuse to live up to our duties? People can intuit all sorts of contradictory things. For "duty" to rise above common or trivial intuitions, what does KF offer as a means of establishing the necessity of accepting duty as a significant, meaningful self-evident truth? Even if we say we have "intuited" the first principles of logic, their necessity and inescapability can be demonstrated. KF keeps insisting this is the case, but has only attempted to make the case for the necessity and inescapability of duty by inappropriately conflating them, wedding them with the inescapable, necessary principles of logic. Also, how is something inescapable and necessary a "duty" in any meaningful sense of that word? The "duty" aspect must be something we can choose not to do, so "duties" cannot be wedded to the fundamental principles of logic; they must come into play at the point where we can misuse logic and "not do" our duty. Surely our "moral duty" is not just to "use logic as properly as possible." So these are two distinctly different, separable things, even if we use logic to ascertain how to fulfill our duty. And that is where the ontology must come in. There's just no way around it. Duty and universal morality, even if they are accepted as self-evidently true, is pure sophistry without ontological consequences. These, from my perspective, are the essential points of the argument I've been making. Here's another point I made and will reiterate. KF's epistemology of "warranted, credibly true knowledge" depends on and was derived from ontology. You and KF can say all you want that his or your epistemology was not derived from ontology: poppycock. Virtually everyone in the world grew up with same basic, assumed, unquestioned, unexamined ontology: the ontology that an objective, material-physical world existed entirely outside of mind. You and KF and I certainly did not start building any epistemology external of ontology, even if you didn't understand it as the ontological underpinnings of the epistemology you constructed. William J Murray
June 6, 2021
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VB
You don’t know whether Himmler was right? Of course you do.
But that wasn’t the question you asked, was it. Please don’t play these misrepresentation games to score rhetorical points. You are usually better than that. You asked, “ So if you grew up in a culture where you killed children because you loved your children would you think they were right or wrong?” and I said that i didn’t know. Which is the only honest answer any of us could make. Any of us growing up in that culture would have significantly different influences than we do today. The current me would hope that this hypothetical me would say that it was wrong. But given that there were many people back then who didn’t think it was wrong, more than we would expect based on current frequencies of psychopaths and sociopaths, indicates that none of us would know for sure how we would react if we grew up as they did.paige
June 6, 2021
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There is a course on logic published by the Great Courses titled
An Introduction to Formal Logic
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/an-introduction-to-formal-logic In the transcript for the course, the word “truth” is used over 900 times. The word “true” is used over a thousand times. The word religion is used twice and Christianity not at all. So let’s assume truth has nothing to do with religion or Christianity. Any suggestion that it does is erroneous. Now both religion and Christianity use logic just as a nuclear engineer uses physics and tools. Conflating end use with the tool is illogical.jerry
June 6, 2021
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WJM, as you should be able to see it is a tightly integrated conceptual scheme, with defined terms. There is no room for me to move, so only if you more or less exactly affirm the creationist conceptual scheme, are we in agreement. So I guess that means we don't agree. I explained the creationist conceptual scheme on the creationwiki. http://www.creationwiki.org/Creationist_Philosophymohammadnursyamsu
June 6, 2021
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WJM, while sound conscience testifies to duty, it does not create it, nor does social conditioning etc. All the usual subterfuges and ideological narratives fail even worse than the fallacies of relativism. The point is plain, you are yet again implying our duties to truth right reason etc, you cannot but imply such. That's the signature of a self-evident, inescapably authoritative first truth. Here, regarding first duties of reason. It would be amusing if it were not so sad. KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu @ 1098, I'm not sure how much we actually agree on, but that's one of the best things I've read in weeks. I'm not exactly sure how you mean your trademark sign-off:
1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact
... but what it means to me when I read it is right on the money.William J Murray
June 6, 2021
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Paige & Vivid: Vivid makes an excellent point. Unless we are referring to a universal, objective morality, it's impossible to logically assert that anyone's behavior is wrong because everyone gets to decide for themselves what is "right or wrong" for them to do. I have no means to judge the behavior of others as "wrong," even in reference to my own sense of "right and wrong" because my sense of that does not transfer to other people, just as I cannot tell other people what flavor of ice cream they prefer. I put "right and wrong" in scare quotes because those terms as used in reference to moral behavior are improper terms to use. They belong to ontologies that contain universal, objective morality, by which we have the capacity to identify the morally right or wrong behavior of anyone else. Absent such an ontology, it doesn't make sense to call behavior "immoral," even my own. You might say that we can have our own subjective moralities .... but what are we referring to when we use the word morality in such a context, absent an ontology that provides for objective, universal morality? IMO, the only thing we can be referring to is, ultimately, individual preferences. I can say, "I personally do not enjoy or prefer to do what Bob is doing," or "what Bob is doing is making me upset," but I cannot say "what Bob is doing is morally wrong." I can exercise my free will and personal might to try and stop Bob from doing what he is doing, but it cannot be from any sense of moral authority or meaningful "right and wrong." Now, one can feel it is wrong for Bob to do X, but IMO that is based on years of subconscious programming that is identifying a group or social preference as "right" or "wrong" behavior.William J Murray
June 6, 2021
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Karen McClownnus Sandy, So, yeah you were there, eh? Okay, have a nice day.
:) I wasn't there but also I wasn't in your mind. Guess which is more credible? ...Sandy
June 6, 2021
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I declare, Kairosfocus is an enemy of subjectivity, and therefore part of the axis of evil, of atheism, materialism, scientism, postmodernism, evolution theory etc. It is clear in my mind that atheists in general are fact obsessed people, who undermine subjectivity in general at the intellectual level. Not just undermine belief in God, but undermine all subjectivity, from love in marrige, to enjoying a good meal. The total annihilation of all subjectivity, at the intellectual level. The evidence supports this. Facebook is awash with atheists who say they can measure emotions in the brain. So they do not identify love on a subjective basis, with a chosen opinion based on feeling it. For the atheist everything is objective, and they reject the entire subjective and spiritual part of reality. That atheists still talk about affirming subjectivity, and subjective morality and such, is because they redefined the word subjectivity. Like they also redefined free will, to make it use the logic of being forced, as like a chesscomputer calculating a move in a forced way. The correct understanding of subjectivity, can be found in the underlying logic of ordinary phrases, like saying a painting is beautiful. The logic of subjectivity, is that a subjective opinion is formed with a choice, and expresses what it is that makes a choice. As shown in the creationist conceptual scheme. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Ofcourse, when an atheist redefines choice in terms of it being like a chesscomputer calculating a move, then obviously also their concept of subjectivity must be bogus, because the concept of subjectivity is based on the concept of choice. The correct understanding of making a choice, is to make one of alternative futures the present, spontaneously. By spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, the opinion that the painting is beautiful, is chosen. Kairosfocus makes nothing but snide and derogatory remarks about subjectivity. He encroaches on the proper domain of subjectivity, by asserting morality is objective. He presents a unified idea of truth, without regard for the categorical distinction between matters of opinion and matters of fact, and then in this unity he makes truth objective, and pushes out subjectivity. He asserts intelligent design is fundamental to creationism, instead of that creationism is fundamental to intelligent design. Denying the fundaments of creator and creation, and instead referring to complex things like mind, consciousness. He does not profess a subjective, chosen belief in God, but instead makes belief in God a forced consequence of a philosophy about a neccessary being. All in all he is guilty of a failure to straightforwardly and unequivocally accept the validity of subjectivity, and instead generally undermines it, same as atheists do. Ofcourse, these accusations are all from the point of view of the truth of the creationist conceptual scheme. I think you should be able to see that from that point of view, this accusation against Kairosfocus and atheists in general, are perfectly reasonable. So you can appreciate sharp lines of debate being drawn. And also subjective opinions, judgements, such as about an axis of evil, being part of the debate about subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu
June 6, 2021
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Vivid said at 1070:
Within his world view I think he has said there is objective morality, I thought I read that maybe I am mistaken.
You are correct.
I agree but Paige asked the question and attributed right or wrong to sacrificing babies depends on “perspective “ I was just making sure that was not an unfair reading of his/ her / they or any of the other pronouns.
If I lived in an area of the country where this pronoun stuff was going on, I'd just start referring to everyone as "it."William J Murray
June 6, 2021
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