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Fun with the hyperreal numbers (and with the idea of an infinite actual past)

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The hyperreals are an extension of the real number line that brings to bear a reciprocal relationship between the very large and the very small. By so introducing extensions to the real number continuum, it forms a base for an infinitesimals approach to the calculus and makes sense of a lot of the tricks used by early pioneers of Calculus from Leibniz and Newton to Euler and beyond. (Though, it is clear in retrospect that they missed a lot of the pathologies that are now part of the far more cautious approaches of today.)

And yes, here is a case where Wikipedia does some good (likely, in a context where there are few basement trolls capable of making a mess):

Let’s zoom in on the graphic, which illustrates the “hyperreal microscope” of *R:

Let us note the definitional relationship between the infinitesimal and the hyper-large:

1/ε  =  ω/1

Where also, a common principle used is that ε is so small that ε^2 = 0. Where, to see what that is suggesting consider that (1/10)^2 = 1/100, and (1/10^50)^2 = (1/10^100), i.e. squaring drastically reduces the scale of a very small number.

This is all quite interesting, and has been used to rehabilitate some of Euler’s work, e.g. here.

(This is also quite relevant to some of the “Math tricks” used by Physicists and Engineers. The reference to the hyperreals may be a way to rehabilitate some seemingly dubious tricks.)

The principle that ω is a number greater than any finite sum 1 + 1 + 1 + . . . + 1 implies that it is of order type at least comparable to the first transfinite ordinal. The inclusion of the further numbers such as ω/2 indicates a reference to the surreals, and something like root-7 times ω indicates an onward transfinite continuum. I do not at this juncture specifically identify this ω with the familiar first transfinite. (Perhaps someone cares to clarify?)

So, we may at least highlight the surreals, where the vertical bars indicate continua — note the place for “infinitesimals”:

All of this is interesting in itself, as numbers are the tools of ever so much analysis and we here enrich appreciation of our favourite tool-box. (I confess, this weekend was more spent with dynamic-stochastic general equilibria, linked rational expectations, questions on modern theories of growth and human capital, etc. All, with Garrison’s Austrian approach to macroeconomics lurking, and blending in issues of saturation and stagnation at points along the PPF as well as what happens to shocked economies with low investor confidence . . . as in, 20+ years on from devastating volcanic eruptions. This stuff was the oh, what about light exploration as a relief.)

But all of this converges on something which has come up for strong, sustained exchanges several times here at UD. Namely, the suggestion of an actual infinite causal-temporal past of the [wider?] cosmos. For, if ω is such that no finite succession from 0, 1, 2 via 1 + 1 + 1 . . . + 1 can reach it, then counting down — notice, the ladder-like succession of steps (and how the surreals extend this to construct continua and to go into transfinite ordinals) — from it in finite succession [or by symmetry counting algebraically upwards from – ω] may reach to something like ω/2 [or – ω/2] but it will be futile for getting to a finite reach of a zero-point.

In short, we can see here a reason to hold that there was no actually transfinite causal-temporal succession of states that have managed to reach the present. Nor will it do to posit that at any given past time p that can finitely succeed to now, infinity past was already traversed. That begs the question of HOW.

This also surfaces a logic of being point.

Namely, that non-being has no causal powers, so that if ever there were utter nothing, such would have forever obtained. Thus also, circular causation is forbidden as this would imply that the not yet existent acted as a cause. Thus, we either have an infinite succession of contingent beings as the world-root or else there is a necessary being at world root. That is, an entity such that it is utterly unlike a fire, which has several required external, enabling “on/off” causal factors for it to begin or be sustained:

Public domain

Where this goes, is that a necessary being is framework for any possible world to exist. So, in any world, it would be. It neither began nor can it cease from being. For instance, in reality we may consider a world W, which must have a distinct identity. So, too, we may consider some distinct thing in W, A that contributes to its identity. Then, we may look at W = {A|~A}. This shows two unities, i.e. two-ness. No world is possible without two-ness, and beyond, the panoply of numbers.

This is what gives bite to Berlinsky’s remark that was just raised here at UD:

>>There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics . . . .

Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time ….

… Come again …

DB: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects.

… And this is something that you, a secular Jew, believe? …

DB: What a question! . . .  I have no religious convictions and no religious beliefs. What I do believe is that theology is no more an impossible achievement than mathematics. The same rational standards apply. Does the system make sense; does it explain something? Are there deep principles at work. Is it productive? >>

So, now, we see from the hyperreals augmented by ideas of causal-temporal succession, that it is hard to defend the notion of a transfinite actual past of contingent beings leading up to now. This points to there being an actual beginning of the world and that this traces to a finitely remote necessary being world root.

That’s enough for a UD Sunday reflection! END

PS: As it is being claimed or implied that no serious thinker thinks like that, I add a clip, just for record:

Comments
PS: Merriam-Webster:
Definition of infinite 1 : extending indefinitely : endless infinite space 2 : immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible infinite patience 3 : subject to no limitation or external determination 4 a : extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large infinite number of positive numbers b : extending to infinity infinite plane surface c : characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms an infinite set an infinite series
It seems the key point of meaningfulness is in a blend of 1, 2 and 4a:
1 : extending indefinitely : endless . . . . 2 : immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible . . . . 4 a : extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large
Notice, the key operative terms: "endless . . . . inexhaustible . . . . extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large." Those seem to be central to the problem.kairosfocus
February 22, 2018
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KF, It explains how "the set of actual past stages could have an aggregate duration that is different from the duration since its particular members". The "aggregate duration" is infinite, yet the duration since each particular member is finite.daveS
February 22, 2018
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DS, pardon but that is not an explanation, it asserts what is to be explained per relevant dynamics. The duration since a given past stage R is -R_t, setting now = 0. there is no past beyond actual stages [taken as having finite durations in themselves] and each stage causally gives rise to its immediate finite stage successor, down to now. This creates the sequence from a finitely remote stage to now with no problem. The challenge to any claimed infinite actual past is that the past will not have duration beyond actual stages which were once the present, and stepwise succession cannot bridge the transfinite. If the past was actual and comprises a succession of stages beyond any assignable specific finite number, then it had to have had actual stages that were transfinitely remote. Such stages could not give rise to a stepwise succession to 0, per the infeasible supertask involved. Suggesting that beyond any stage R there were endlessly more in a beginningless sequence only draws out the problem it does not solve it. In short the definition that turns on an unlimited l-wards extension of finitely remote stages R, only manages to entail that for each specified R there are further l-wards stages without limit. That is no particular specified or symbolised stage has attained to the actual transfinite, the operative point is in the l-ward ellipsis which points onward to the implicit transfinite. KFkairosfocus
February 22, 2018
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KF, I will address this part of your question:
Kindly, explain how the set of actual past stages could have an aggregate duration that is different from the duration since its particular members.
Recall the relevant definition of infinite:
extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large.
I submit that the following principle is obviously true:
The duration of the past is at least as great as the duration between the present and any particular point in time (or stage) in the past.
Suppose we have a sequence of points in time or stages of the following form:
. . . p_3 -> p_2 -> p_1 -> p_0
where the durations of the intervals between the p_k and p_0 are all finite, but are arbitrarily large, e.g., where each such interval has duration k seconds/years/stages. Then according to the obviously true principle above, together with Merriam-Webster, the duration of the past is infinite.daveS
February 22, 2018
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CR, to assert that the terms of language are ultimately undefined is to abandon meaning, truth, thought, reason and communication. Further to this, a discussion on what we mean in context of accurate description and understanding of empirically examined reality is fundamental. Thus, there is no hall of distorted mirrors in a world of words about words about words: the plumb-line aptly illustrates what is straight and upright, testing what we have erected -- and your attempted objection long since failed. Just so, the self-evident undeniable truths you stoutly resist serve as plumb-lines starting with the first principles of right reason you must implicitly rely on to express text in English even as you try to undermine such. I also note that no-one here at UD of consequence has sought to defend the justified true belief conception of knowledge, given the Gettier examples and the like as well as the manifest weak form sense of knowledge that is commonly used. As you know or should long since have acknowledged, we have spoken to warranted, credibly true (and reliable) beliefs, with that warrant amounting to degrees of certainty that range up to utter certainty for a relatively few self-evident truths. KFkairosfocus
February 22, 2018
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JDK, a line of infinite length is not a physically instantiated reality in an actual space, it is a concept. That is why for instance, assessment of the E-field at a point due to a line of charge viewed as endless (or more importantly for SI Unit of current definition, the B field due to a line of current elements) is about an idealised and reasonably calculable case, not an actual one. Likewise, classic point particles etc are ideals used in Newtonian analysis. That is this is of long standing. Such an infinite line as proposed is such that it corresponds to the reals, for which endlessness on either side of 0 is material. That is, for any specified point along the line, there is more beyond without limit. Thus to specify or even symbolise particular points will always yield a finite separation as the beyond implies a bound, but that does not tell the whole story that is expressed in the ellipsis in many contexts or by pointing arrows in the case of lines. Indeed, it is endless continuation which is the heart of our understanding of the infinitude of the reals or the integers. In this context, I point to the OP above to the Hyperreals and infinitesimals as giving an alternative way to conceptualise using the catapult power of the reciprocal function thus yielding a continuum that enfolds a span of numbers that when -- using w for omega and e for epsilon -- we take 1/e we have w, and the converse. Where e^2 ~ 0. That is there is a cloud of all but zero numbers that allows us to create a conception that is relevant. I add: if you will, pivot discussion on two operations, + and x with identity elements 0 and 1 used as start-points. From 0 by successive addition we see unlimited incrementation beyond, leading to a view of the infinite. Namely, we see an endless successiveness and infer to a new order of quantity, order type of such endless succession, a transfinite result. Of course I have in mind here the von Neumann succession, and we can fill in a continuum by using in effect power series based on 10^-n or the like base, decimal fractions etc continued endlessly. I find this leads to a gap, where we put that ellipsis of endlessness. However, the movement instead down the interval (0,1] from 1 leads to a different but complementary and enriching result, using multiplicative inverses thus reciprocals and projecting a continuum beyond 1. That model if you will then attains to a point as we reach e near to zero in a continuum such that e^2 ~ 0, that 1/e = w, a hyperreal. This is the Robinson-type discussion. Where I further add, the counting numbers are picked up from the succession 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 etc as we sink towards 0, in a way that naturally supports a continuum-based view. We then simply multiply through by -1 to get the negative side. It makes sense in this context to conceive of a continuum that involves ellipsis yes when we look at the "beyond the reals" aspect -- reals here being in effect also the continuum that fills in the stepwise ladder of the counting numbers. That ellipsis is where the issues of interest come as we begin to look at descent from the claimed infinite past in finite stage steps. So, no there is no reason to make a middle wall of unbridgeable partition, a result that the surreals approach also allows us to see. BTW, this also shows us how the cardinality of the finite span continuum (0,1] -- a proper subset -- is in correspondence with the wider reals beyond 1 and it makes for a natural extension to hyperreals. By contrast, the real past of our world is actual, whatever it was. Time is a feature of our world and it proceeds by a known dynamic, this is not mysterious: as one finite stage causally transitions into the next, conveniently we can speak of years. That sort of finite stage cumulative succession gives a distinctive forward direction and it does not have power to span the transfinite. Going forward there may well be the potential infinite but looking back, there is a fundamental asymmetry of a character that entails a finite succession so far. And no, I think we can see that those who wish to suggest that the past lacks actuality (an objection that has in fact been made) are missing something fundamental about reality. Similarly, the Zeno paradox discussion is about non-finite, infinitesimal succession yielding a finite limit. And even that may well be an idealisation -- is time, in the fine, a continuum in a world where energy-time uncertainty applies giving a limit to resolution that is material to our understanding of forces and fields, including virtual particles? Those who suggest a physical, causal-temporal succession without a beginning, imply an infinite past and need to put on the table an adequate dynamic. Suggesting that oh, for any remote past point which can access now stepwise there is an onward further beginningless past does not answer the question. Nor is the PSR objection reasonable: a known causal-temporal dynamic is on the table. That dynamic points to the actuality of the past and the impotence to deliver an actual infinite succession, where the time-span to the remote past cannot exceed actual durations since actual past stages of the world. So, to posit no beyond any particular past stage p there is onward endlessness in the past . . . i.e. beginninglessness . . . leads to the need for an adequate mechanism that allows causal temporal succession of transfinite nature. It is in that context that I have pointed to the principle of actuality, such that were there an actual transfinite past there would be transfinitely remote stages of the past. The issue is not whether one can conceive in the abstract of a timeline that is infinite in the past, but that it has to have actuality that answers to the nature and limitations of causal-temporal succession. No such dynamic has been offered, just a concept that we can have an infinite where any two particular points we can specify or symbolise and access stepwise -- no catapults allowed -- have a finite span. That is not in dispute. The issue is to address infinite succession. The evidence so far is that no such dynamic is on the table. Absent such, I remain content to conclude that we are only warranted to speak of a finite actual past of finite stages that have cumulatively acted step by step to arrive at now. KFkairosfocus
February 22, 2018
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DS, could you kindly summarise what an infinite past implies about past stages of the world? Specifically, in your view, explain how an infinite past does NOT imply that past actual moments have now receded beyond the finite, i/l/o the lack of power of stepwise succession in that regard. Kindly, explain how the set of actual past stages could have an aggregate duration that is different from the duration since its particular members. KFkairosfocus
February 22, 2018
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CR, If I understand your post correctly, I generally agree. I'm usually willing to use whatever definitions anyone proposes, as long as they are stated clearly. But there is a fair amount of writing on this subject, and it seems pointless not to comply with the definitions that have been established through usage over the years. Especially when we refer to these writings from time to time. There has been so much needless confusion in these threads, it's mind-boggling. Of course, I'm always one of the first to respond when a new thread comes up. Just like Charlie Brown is always ready to practice place kicking with Lucy. jdk, Thanks for the support :-)daveS
February 21, 2018
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Given a line of infinite length, there are no two points that are "an infinite distance" apart. As always, I'm with Dave on this (because he's right! :-) )jdk
February 21, 2018
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Well, in any case, I’m not inclined to budge on this matter, as I believe my understanding of the meanings of “infinite” in this context is correct
Why argue over the definition of words when they are ultimately undefined? Definitions rely on other words, which rely on other words, etc., which leads to an infinite regress. As such, words should be shortcuts for ideas, which only need be defined to the extent that we can talk about them in the context of a problem. IOW, we should be willing to accept the terms used by others when having a discussion because discussions are about ideas, not definitions. For example, if you start out with the definition of knowledge as justified, true belief, the discussion will go nowhere because there is no where to go.critical rationalist
February 21, 2018
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Well, in any case, I'm not inclined to budge on this matter, as I believe my understanding of the meanings of "infinite" in this context is correct.daveS
February 21, 2018
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DS, the infinite wire case is an idealisation, that is not up for debate. I am amazed that you are trying to squeeze a reality claim about atomic separations out of it. An infinite past claim by contrast is a reality claim, that the actual past extends in duration beyond any natural number, and is therefore infinite. That is a matter of the meaning of the claim, not citations of papers. Besides, we already had a round of citations, and I am by no means impressed with how you responded. I point out that the ellipsis to the left denotes an infinite extension. I point out again that no collection of successive stages of time will have a duration to now that exceeds that of actual members. So, if infinite past is claimed, it implies actual past stages transfinitely remote from us in time. The problem is, stepwise succession of stages cannot traverse a transfinite span. That gives a pretty good reason to infer that such implied stages did not exist and that the past is finite. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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KF,
DS, the model of a wire, as already pointed out is an idealised simplification not a reality claim.
Not sure about that, but my point is that it's one more example of usage of the word "infinite" consistent with mine. A wire in which pairs of atoms are separated by arbitrarily large finite distances is infinite, according to the physicists. Can you find any published examples where the author unequivocally asserts that infinite lengths/time intervals/whatever must have parts separated by infinite "distances"? I have yet to find any, except for a 40-some year old paper, and that claim was disputed immediately.
And BTW, a B-theory, all at once timespan sustained from a common point in eternity would not be going through such a succession as such as actual causal dynamic — that’s a talking-point fail on your part.
I don't know what this is about, but no matter, if we can't agree on the meaning of "infinite past", or even what a wire of infinite length would be, then we are not prepared to communicate in any depth on such questions.daveS
February 21, 2018
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DS, the model of a wire, as already pointed out is an idealised simplification not a reality claim. The claimed infinite past is an actuality claim. That is why I pointed out that duration only extends so far as duration since members. An infinite past implies infinitely distant stages in time. But such have no mechanism to account for succession down to today as stepwise succession cannot span the transfinite. And BTW, a B-theory, all at once timespan sustained from a common point in eternity would not be going through such a succession as such as actual causal dynamic -- that's a talking-point fail on your part. And more, but this is enough for now. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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Hm. This means that a wire has finite length provided every pair of atoms in that wire is separated by a finite distance.daveS
February 21, 2018
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PS: Let me clip 49:
the structured set S: {. . . p-2 –> p-1 –> p –> p+1 . . . –> 2 –> 1 –> 0} can only have duration as far back as that of its members. So if S is transfinite, members of subtype q are present. The challenge being that stepwise, finite stage succession cannot traverse a transfinite span. The reciprocal function between infinitesimals and hyperreals does have such power, but that is not relevant to the dynamics at work.
kairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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DS, already given, just not acknowledged. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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PS: Here's what I'm looking for in terms of an argument:
1) Assume we have a beginningless sequence of stages: . . . p-2 –> p-1 –> p –> p+1 . . . –> 2 –> 1 –> 0 where there is no first/leftmost stage in the sequence. 2) ?? 3) Therefore, there exists a stage q in the sequence such that q is infinitely stages before/to the left of 0.
daveS
February 21, 2018
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KF,
No, I don’t think so, apart from God creates and sustains all times at once presumably from a base in eternity. That is not what evolutionary materialistic cosmology is prepared to concede.
WLC, Moreland, and others are not arguing from an evolutionary materialistic perspective, yet they still conclude that an infinite past is impossible. I'm just saying that even in their worldview, their arguments fail.
The physics of an infinite linear charge or an infinite transmission line etc are examples of the calculus at work, on increments. In these cases, the integration to achieve resultant action or effect at a point of interest, is a summation to a limit or a summation of infinitesimals, you pick your choice. A ladder of networks of infinite succession may be more to the point, but the result is, summation of a series with an ellipsis and convergence issues in play.
I will pose the question once more: in the hypothetical infinite charged wire, do we assume that there are particular pairs of atoms at infinite distance from one another?daveS
February 21, 2018
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DS, No the problem I have pointed to is inherent, it cannot be simply set aside as of no interest or significance, poof gone through inattention. So, the issue is not whether oh a set as a whole is transfinite can substitute for in this case, the set is built up dynamically so the dynamics have to be accounted for. As for PSR weak sense: as I pointed out, we ALREADY have in hand a dynamical explanation of stages in the process of temporal succession. Do you have another? No, I don't think so, apart from God creates and sustains all times at once presumably from a base in eternity. That is not what evolutionary materialistic cosmology is prepared to concede. On A vs B theories of time, I suggest that simultaneously sustained times can only make sense from eternity and such support. The physics of an infinite linear charge or an infinite transmission line etc are examples of the calculus at work, on increments. In these cases, the integration to achieve resultant action or effect at a point of interest, is a summation to a limit or a summation of infinitesimals, you pick your choice. A ladder of networks of infinite succession may be more to the point, but the result is, summation of a series with an ellipsis and convergence issues in play. No actual successive impact out to a real infinity is in view, such are mathematical models. Lumped parameter, circuit theory models also imply scale less than 1/10 wavelength of EM waves for the frequencies of interest and several other subtleties. The analysis abstracts from the real cases as the analysis would then collapse into hopeless complexity for most practical things. So no there is no actual implication of atoms at arbitrarily large transfinite distances. Just as point particle models in Newtonian dynamics do not actually mean to imply infinite density. Our problem is whether you really mean an infinite past or simply a very large remote past. In either case, duration since R is attached to R. This means that the set which is in effect a conceptual bag that catches up the members, does not have in it a duration bigger than that possessed by some at least of its members. If every member period is only finitely remote in time then the whole is necessarily finitely remote in time. Which implies a first stage, a beginning. If you argue no beginning, you imply that for any specific n in N, there are members at stages of further remove from now than n. That is, almost by definition, transfinite. Where since the stages are each finite, the span of time from the beginningless past to now is beyond any n in N, i.e. it is transfinite -- even ignoring for the moment that S cannot have a span beyond its members. So, we have every right to challenge that you suggest a timeline much like:
Beginningless so transfinitely remote range, where on actuality,q is a member: . . . q --> q+1 --> q+2 --> . . . procceeding stepwise to a finite range down to now: --> p --> p+1 . . . --> 0
The first two ellipses are transfinite in scope. Now, I infer from the line of your arguments that the accumulation: . . . p-2 --> p-1 --> p --> p+1 . . . --> 2 --> 1 --> 0 does not requite any members of subtype q to attain transfinite, beginningless character. I disagree as the structured set S: {. . . p-2 --> p-1 --> p --> p+1 . . . --> 2 --> 1 --> 0} can only have duration as far back as that of its members. So if S is transfinite, members of subtype q are present. The challenge being that stepwise, finite stage succession cannot traverse a transfinite span. The reciprocal function between infinitesimals and hyperreals does have such power, but that is not relevant to the dynamics at work. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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KF, Regarding #46: When we use Gauss' Law to calculate the electrical field generated by an "infinite" charged wire, in what sense is the wire "infinitely long"? Are there particular pairs of atoms in the wire which are infinitely far from each other? Or are we simply saying that there are pairs of atoms at arbitrarily large distances from one another? (You may answer this both as someone trained in physics as well as the man on the Clapham bus).daveS
February 21, 2018
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KF, It's clear I'm not going to be able to keep up. I will respond to a few selected points. Regarding the PSR: I have only claimed that IP(−ω) creates no mathematical/logical problems. Certainly if you invoke some form of the PSR, and demand an explanation for a hypothetical infinite chain of events, there likely will be issues. I have speculated that a god, existing outside of time, and capable of viewing all points in our time "at once" could solve these issues, but at the moment, my interest in that particular line of argument is at a lull.
So, if the chain as a whole is allegedly transfinite and beginningless, that directly implies that in the chain there are specific stages of the actual past that were once the present but which are now infinitely remote.
I don't see how this follows. At this stage I think it's fair to ask for a formal argument, with numbered steps, which is obviously valid, like the Kalam argument presented in post #35.daveS
February 21, 2018
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F/N: "arbitrarily long but finite intervals" seems to be by definition, finite and thus containing a finite number of steps. To go to the transfinite we have to pull back and look at the set as a whole, the function of that three dot ellipsis: . . . So, no, if you mean an interval from 0 that is greater in size than any arbitrarily high n in N, that is any finite n in N, we have arrived at the point where the ellipsis is pivotal. The ellipsis means, we recognise that no stepwise process we undertake that is tied to 0 can span what we are dealing with, as at any k we can go to k+1, k+2 etc and be as good as having just started at 0. So, we summarise in a seemingly simple symbol. That's math. We are dealing with physics, where each stage R gives rise to the next, and then the next etc. Going R-wards, causally. That successive process simply cannot span or traverse a transfinite span. Where a past without beginning will have to be such a transfinite span. KF PS: I think Moreland has in mind something like a case Q with a leftward transfinite descent to Q, then a rightward transfinite succession down to now.kairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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DS, I wish to look at the LHS hyperreals line as a proxy for a beginningless timeline to now, 0. In such a case we can count leftward in steps, presuming each is a stage in the past accumulating to the present. A successive L-ward count can always add one more. So counting, we cannot span to a transfinite value, for obvious reasons. But be reversing direction, we cannot span a transfinite traverse in the R-ward (future-ward) direction. So now, we face: but at any actual point on the line we reckon R, there is already a L-ward, beginningless, thus transfinite span. The infinity is already completed. How so? Oh -- and following objectors, that would be to invoke PSR which is deprecated. No, there is a dynamic which shows that the stages proceed causally, in finite stage steps, thus cumulatively and successively R-ward. We do have a dynamic that shows that one sufficient reason for a stage is that it causally succeeds another. And in the suggested case of a beginning, that it proceeds from the act of a world-root. Where the presumed beginningless process does not access this case. So, we are left to the presumption that somehow the transfinite has already been spanned, without explanation. This patently begs the questions at stake. And no, a suggested infinite convergent succession of in the end infinitesimal stages such as with Zeno's paradox does not answer. The cases are not comparable. The point remains, that the past is actual, stage by stage to now, and we consider cumulatively causal finite stages; years for convenience. Duration since a stage, R, attaches to that stage, - R_t. Thus, to claim a beginningless, infinite- in- the- past world is to imply a world with specific events or stages such that duration since such a stage of sub-type Q will have been transfinite. That is, for such a stage, the duration since, - Q_t will exceed any natural counting number. It will be of a transfinite magnitude comparable to omega on the hyperreals line cf. OP. Now, the dynamic process that creates the future, R-ward in the cause-to-effect direction, is immediately successive stage to the next, as we are familiar from the Calendar. There is no mechanism that delivers a chunk or a large span of time all at once. The problem, of course, is that the dynamic at work does not have power to span the transfinite. The presumption of an already completed past infinity begs that question. It is required to show it possible on a relevant dynamic, or else it is a physically groundless assertion. Overall, we are only warranted to discuss stages of sub-type P, finitely remote. And to suggest, oh enough of those will be transfinite, fails to address that the dynamic is stepwise successive, on finite stages. This exercise is then highly relevant to elucidating what we mean when we speak of the past and alternative models of how the past of origins gives rise to the present; to reflecting on cosmology. Where, if we have reason to believe that a claimed mechanism is infeasible, that is highly relevant. Such also helps us clarify our understanding of infinity, numbers and processes that manipulate the infinite. The point is, we face a causal form Agrippa trilemma; where origin from utter non-being (which hath not causal capability) is patently absurd. Circular cause is ruled out as it requires the future to cause the past, a case of cause from utter non-being. The above gives reason to set aside beginningless infinite physical world. This leaves, a finitely remote beginning from an adequately capable world-root. A highly significant conclusion. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2018
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DS, I again point to the actuality principle. The past is actual and comprises a chain that is causally successive. Each past stage was once the actual present and causally gave rise to its immediate successor. This proceeded in a chain down to now. We can collect the chain as a structured, dynamically connected whole, S. In it is a succession of finite stage links, typical value R. Each such R occurred at some time (or stage count back from now) R_t. By setting now to zero, the duration since R is Dur_R = 0 - R_t = - R_t This cannot be controversial, and every R is a finite stage, that is we are not dealing with an ever finer succession which may converge on a limit. Zeno's paradox is irrelevant. All of this connects to the claim, here, of an allegedly infinite actual past, a physical, causal-temporal succession to date that is claimed to have no beginning. Were that so, the cumulative chain would be infinite, as there is no basis for its convergence. But as duration since attaches to the individual member R, we can then distinguish a sub-type P that is finitely remote from us and -- what is controversial because of implications -- the sub-type Q that is transfinitely remote. This last implying that the reciprocal of its duration since is an infinitesimal as described in the OP. For a case of sub-type P the reciprocal would be a finitely small fraction. Were there such an event as Q, we face the challenge of transfinite, cumulative, finite stage succession amounting to a transfinite value. That is set by the dynamics of succession demanded by the actuality principle. We know that such a stepwise succession can only ever amount to a finite value, as at each finite stage k it can be seen as starting over again and put in 1:1 correspondence with the original chain. Both with endlessness still ahead. Finite stage succession has no power to stepwise span a transfinite range. In sequence and series analysis we only illustrate certain stages and then pull back to look at the whole at once, assessing an infinite summation's trend. In fact, we use the trick that for a truly convergent series or sequence, beyond a given point, the onward sequence of partial sums or the terms of the sequence will be within a given small neighbourhood of there it would end in an infinite limit. We never actually do the infinite summing up. We cannot. So now, we proceed to see that a hypothetical Q that proceeds to trigger a transfinite chain to now is an infeasible supertask. The only credible members of S are of type P. I point out immediately that duration since any -- repeat, ANY -- P will attach to P and will be - P_t, a finite value. So, as there are no members of the chain of type Q, the cumulative duration is finite, and that is not a matter of a convergence as every stage P is finite. Now, the arguments I have seen from you and others try to posit a case that once we have any definite P that is at some definite duration to now, the beginningless chain is BEFORE P. So, we can never access a first member. And by appealing to the dismissals of the principle of sufficient reason the implication is that such is a causeless, unintelligible brute fact. (And people talk dismissively about blind faith?) I say, no. First, I am unwilling to surrender the intelligibility of the world and its major features without very good reason. I suggest that a weak-form PSR is patently valid: of any thing X that is (or is/ may be not) we may ask why and proceed to investigate. This does not assume a conclusion. But it can be confident, i/l/o the logic of being: possible vs impossible, contingent vs necessary. Cause, connected to contingency. For this, consider two "neighbouring" possible worlds, A and A'. In A X is, but in A', which by distinct identity will differ in some relevant core characteristic c, X is not. We can then plausibly argue that c is or is connected to an enabling, on/off causal factor for X to be. So now, we come back to our main discussion. The issue is whether we can have a beginningless, causally successive temporal sequence of stages R such that the past is cumulatively infinite but all members of S are of sub-type P. To which, I answer no, as duration since is dynamically tied to the specific actual member R. So, if the chain as a whole is allegedly transfinite and beginningless, that directly implies that in the chain there are specific stages of the actual past that were once the present but which are now infinitely remote. And no, this is not to say that such events were the beginning of the chain, they are just within it. For all we care, there are onward members that may continue onward without limit, for argument. Of course, if you ask the man in the Clapham bus stop what it would mean to have such an infinite past, he would instantly agree that it would involve specific stages of sub-type Q. Is he wrong? I think, not. The way of proceeding where for instance we argue that the natural counting numbers succeed from zero and any member we can reach will have an endless onward chain of successors so that any member k that we identify is finite misleads us. For, the key property is that the chain is endless so the indefinite onward unspecified extension is material in seeing that the set is infinite. We then recognise a new order type omega as a type of quantity in itself. By looking at that seemingly innocuous three dot ellipsis, we can see that it is telling us to shift perspective from the von Neumann-like succession to pondering the whole set all at once, recognising its divergent character. This is how we technically conceive the infinite nature of the naturals without noticing fully the lack of power of finite stepwise succession to deliver the actual endlessness. Or, reversing to look at the negative integers, beginninglessness. The right/left succession from 0 is just a matter of mirror reflection. I think our challenge is conceptual and dynamical. The actual past cannot be handled by infinite span ellipsis. It proceeded stage by stage to get here, now, and duration since primarily attaches to the individual member R as -R_t. So, if the whole is infinite in the past, it involves members of subtype P and of subtype Q. But the latter is not possible. So, we are warranted to talk only of a finite actual past, which therefore is bounded by some N in the naturals such that N exceeds max{-R_t) There credibly was a finitely remote beginning to the world's timeline. not just yes the Big Bang, but whatever was a material entity before it. We face the implication of boundedness on spatio-temporal domain by an initial point, a point of causation. And onward, we find reason to suggest a different order of reality and a world-root necessary being of that order. (For convenience, we may use the traditional term, eternity.) And yes, this is also connected to the point that, had the past proceeded without beginning, we should face entropy maximmisation. Or else, continual creation, much as the long since abandoned steady state view held. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2018
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Scotoma, yes, it is arguable that had the physical cosmos been infinitely old, it should have faced in effect so-called heat death. KF PS: The hyperreals lend support to the infinitesimals, which for over 2,0000 years have proved their worth.kairosfocus
February 20, 2018
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Hyperreal numbers is just a rename for abstract or imaginary numbers. While they have their use in mathematics, they have no value in reality without absurdity. About as silly as supposing that an infinite number of moments can be divided (for example) by 2 and have a result of two finite sets. There cannot be an infinite succession of moments prior to this moment otherwise this moment could never arrive, since there is no such thing as an infinite number of moments + more moments. If there were an infinite number of moments prior to this moment, then all the energy of the universe would have been converted to heat by now and the universe would have reached maximum entropy and be cold, dark and dead. Yet, here we are, and the moments keep on coming. Trying to correlate imaginary "hyperreal" numbers to reality is to make much ado about nothing.Scotoma
February 20, 2018
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PS to my #38/40: The most common "application" of these debates is to arguments such as the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which seek to show at some point that the universe had a beginning, some finite number of years/stages ago. They do this by showing that the past is finite. But if there existed sequences of stages with order type ω*, with all stages occurring finitely many steps from the present, then the universe could not have a beginning. Therefore, presumably "the past is finite" must be inconsistent with the existence of such ω*-type sequences, hence these sequences could only exist in case the past is infinite.daveS
February 20, 2018
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KF, I think that leaves us at an impasse, then. Correction to part of my #38:
From my reading, I believe that’s consistent with what others have in mind. An infinite past simply must contain arbitrarily long finite intervals. Just as a spatially infinite universe must contain arbitrarily long finite distances.
daveS
February 20, 2018
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DS, I am speaking to a stage or event in the chain, and I am pointing out that durations since are tied to those events primarily. Event R is such that duration since R to now = - R_t. And as the set is really a conceptual shell, there is no such thing actually as duration tied to the set as such but rather to the events in it and the dynamics that connect them in a successive chain. So, if one suggests a transfinite duration, there need to be events such that the duration since them is transfinite. And actually Moreland's point in the excerpted footnote [and that is all of it there above] is that the duration from the claimed beginningless past to now would involve an event that has receded to the endlessly remote past. He objects that for such to have allegedly happened would imply traversal of a transfinite span in successive finite stage steps, which is impossible. But we do not need to go quoting JPM or WLC etc, the matter is laid out above. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2018
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