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Logic & First Principles, 4: The logic of being, causality and science

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We live as beings in a world full of other concrete entities, and to do science we must routinely rely on mathematics and so on numbers and other abstract objects. We observe how — as just one example — a fire demonstrates causality (and see that across time causality has been the subject of hot dispute). We note that across science, there are many “effects.”

Such puts the logic of being and causality on the table for discussion as part 4 of this series [ cf. 1, 2, 3] — and yes, again, the question arises: why are these themes not a routine part of our education?

The logic of being (ontology) speaks to possible vs impossible entities, contingent ones and necessary ones. As was tabulated last time:

We see here, that some proposed things such as a square circle are not possible of being: there is no possible world in which they would exist as core characteristics [squarishness vs. circularity] stand in mutual contradiction. This already shows LOI and LNC in action, the principle of distinct identity truly is of central importance. Other things are possible of being (some of which are actual). Where, we may contrast that some must exist as part of the framework for any world to exist (e.g. numbers) — necessary beings. Other things may exist in certain possible worlds but would not exist in others, hence: contingent.

Contingent, on what? Causes.

But first, just what is a possible world? (Is it another name for the multiverse?)

Let us use a surprisingly helpful introductory discussion at Wikipedia — after all,on the principle of charity we must encourage them towards doing a consistently good job:

For each distinct way the world could have been, there is said to be a distinct possible world; the actual world is the one we in fact live in . . .  There is a close relation between propositions and possible worlds. We note that every proposition [–> statement that is true or else false] is either true or false at any given possible world; then the modal status of a proposition is understood in terms of the worlds in which it is true and worlds in which it is false. The following are among the assertions we may now usefully make:

  • True propositions are those that are true in the actual world (for example: “Richard Nixon became president in 1969”).
  • False propositions are those that are false in the actual world (for example: “Ronald Reagan became president in 1969”). (Reagan did not run for president until 1976, and thus couldn’t possibly have been elected.)
  • Possible propositions are those that are true in at least one possible world (for example: “Hubert Humphrey became president in 1969”). (Humphrey did run for president in 1968, and thus could have been elected.) This includes propositions which are necessarily true, in the sense below.
  • Impossible propositions (or necessarily false propositions) are those that are true in no possible world (for example: “Melissa and Toby are taller than each other at the same time”).
  • Necessarily true propositions (often simply called necessary propositions) are those that are true in all possible worlds (for example: “2 + 2 = 4”; “all bachelors are unmarried”).[1]
  • Contingent propositions are those that are true in some possible worlds and false in others (for example: “Richard Nixon became president in 1969” is contingently false and “Hubert Humphrey became president in 1969” is contingently true).

The idea of possible worlds is most commonly attributed to Gottfried Leibniz, who spoke of possible worlds as ideas in the mind of God  . . . . Scholars have found implicit earlier traces of the idea of possible worlds in the works of René Descartes,[3] a major influence on Leibniz, Al-Ghazali (The Incoherence of the Philosophers), Averroes (The Incoherence of the Incoherence),[4] Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (Matalib al-‘Aliya)[5] and John Duns Scotus.[4] The modern philosophical use of the notion was pioneered by David Lewis and Saul Kripke.

We may summarise, a possible world is a description of the way the — or, a — world might be, inter alia requiring coherence and sufficient completeness for purposes of analysis or action.

For example, in mathematics we routinely construct axiomatic systems that lay out complex abstract model worlds even though, post-Godel we know that no  sufficiently complex scheme can be both utterly complete and coherent. Also, that for such schemes we cannot construct an axiomatic system that is demonstrably coherent. (That is, in the end, our confidence in the coherence of our mathematical systems is supported rather than demonstrated; i.e. inductive reasoning is inescapably involved in the practice of mathematics.)

And yes, the utility of Mathematics and its application through computing systems is never far from the surface in our ongoing considerations. Where yes, that means that to some extent we must accept the sufficient reality of a host of abstract, logic-model worlds that we may apply them in our thought and even practical work. Ponder, here, how natural numbers lead to the panoply of transfinite numbers:

We may thus proceed to understand causes and causal factors, first in a fairly narrow sense:

where a contingent entity A would exist in world W1 but would “just” not exist in a closely neighbouring world W2, the difference in circumstances

C(W1 – W2) = f1

allows us to confidently identify f1 as among the relevant causal factors that enable A to be.

Then, we may explore across several neighbouring worlds W2 to Wn, identifying a broader cluster of factors {f1, f2, . . . fn} such that they are each necessary for and are jointly sufficient for A to be.

As an example, ponder the extended fire triangle, the fire tetrahedron:

Public domain

We are also seeing here the significance of experimental studies, observational studies, use-cases, Monte Carlo modelling and statistical investigations, where in effect we set up micro-worlds and study properties as we vary circumstances or ponder natural variations.

In this context, we are already clarifying cause.  Wikipedia is again helpful for convenience, broadening our view:

Causality (also referred to as causation,[1] or cause and effect) is what connects one process (the cause) with another process or state (the effect), where the first is partly responsible for the second, and the second is partly dependent on the first. In general, a process has many causes,[2] which are said to be causal factors for it, and all lie in its past (more precise: none lie in its future). An effect can in turn be a cause of, or causal factor for, many other effects, which all lie in its future. Causality is metaphysically prior to notions of time and space.[3][4]

Causality is an abstraction that indicates how the world progresses, so basic a concept that it is more apt as an explanation of other concepts of progression than as something to be explained by others more basic. The concept is like those of agency and efficacy. For this reason, a leap of intuition may be needed to grasp it.[5] Accordingly, causality is implicit in the logic and structure of ordinary language.[6]. . . .

Causes may sometimes be distinguished into two types: necessary and sufficient.[14] A third type of causation, which requires neither necessity nor sufficiency in and of itself, but which contributes to the effect, is called a “contributory cause.”

Necessary causes
If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the prior occurrence of x. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur.[15]
Sufficient causes
If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the subsequent occurrence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the prior occurrence of x.[15]
Contributory causes
For some specific effect, in a singular case, a factor that is a contributory cause is one among several co-occurrent causes. It is implicit that all of them are contributory. For the specific effect, in general, there is no implication that a contributory cause is necessary, though it may be so. In general, a factor that is a contributory cause is not sufficient, because it is by definition accompanied by other causes, which would not count as causes if it were sufficient. For the specific effect, a factor that is on some occasions a contributory cause might on some other occasions be sufficient, but on those other occasions it would not be merely contributory.[16]

J. L. Mackie argues that usual talk of “cause” in fact refers to INUS conditions (insufficient but non-redundant parts of a condition which is itself unnecessary but sufficient for the occurrence of the effect).[17] An example is a short circuit as a cause for a house burning down. Consider the collection of events: the short circuit, the proximity of flammable material, and the absence of firefighters. Together these are unnecessary but sufficient to the house’s burning down (since many other collections of events certainly could have led to the house burning down, for example shooting the house with a flamethrower in the presence of oxygen and so forth).

Obviously, a specific contingent circumstance — e.g. the unfortunate burning down of a specific classmate’s house on a particular day in 1976 — had particular distinct causal factors summing up to its specific cause (of interest to the Insurance company) etc. However, once we loosen to a house burning down, we see that we can properly take cause in a looser sense (e.g. of interest to those writing fire safety regulations). This them makes good sense of sufficient but not necessary causal factors as for instance Mackie raised.

Obviously, for an event E, all necessary causal factors (in this looser sense) must be present, as knocking out any one will block it. Likewise, a sufficient cluster must be present which may include broader contributory factors. For example, while a court building here could have caught fire through a short, fire fighters and the police were very interested to observe evidence of accelerants. Not all fires are arson, but some are.

All of this of course feeds onwards into another categorisation of causal factors: mechanical necessity, chance/random factors, intelligently directed contingency. But, that discussion is for another day, save, that we can lay out an explanatory factor flowchart:

The ID Inference Explanatory Filter.

. . . and may ponder competing explanations through abductive inference to best explanation so far:

But, are all entities contingent? No. For, as numbers already indicate, some entities are necessary for any world to exist, as they are inherently part of the framework. To see that, we call on the resources of the principle of distinct identity. Notice, above, we contrasted W1 and W2 etc, drawing out differences even between neighbouring possible worlds. Thus, each world Wk has its own distinct identity and we may freely identify some A such that Wk = (A|~A}. Already we see by partition, twoness. From twoness we infer to one-ness and nullity as emptiness {}. Then, following von Neumann:

{} –> 0

{0} –> 1

{0,1} –> 2

. . .

[Thence, the onward panoply of the transfinites.]

Etc.

Numbers, thus the logic of structure and quantity — the substance of Mathematics, are inherent to the framework of any possible world. This already implies reality in some sense of abstract being. And it further seems that the abstract model worlds of core Mathematics can be sub-worlds integrated with physical ones. Peculiar indeed.

Numbers, we have seen, are necessary beings.

Such NB’s (as opposed to contingent ones, CB’s) have peculiar properties. For one, no Wk is possible in which NB’s do not exist. Try to ponder a world where 2-ness does not exist, or begins to exist or ceases from being. Impossible. Thus, we see a constraint that highlights worlds that are impossible of being. And, a serious candidate NB will therefore be either impossible of being (square circle logic) or it will be present in any actualised Wk. One implication is, that a world is — manifestly so, implies that all truly necessary beings eternally are.

Where of course, the God of Ethical Theism is a serious candidate necessary being. He is either impossible of being or actual. And yes those who claim to know or to practically know he does not exist in actuality have taken up a huge burden of proof. One, I daresay, has never been met. (If you doubt, just fill in one of those pesky UD blanks: ______ Where, for example, post Plantinga, the problem of evil is effectively dead.)

All of this points onward to a further thorny issue: intelligibility (at least to God! and partly, to us!) of the world.

That is, some form or other of the principle of sufficient reason. I here put up a weak form sufficient to pursue logic of being:

 [PSR, weak (investigatory) form:] Of any particular thing A that is

[. . . or (ii) is possible, or even (iii) is impossible],

we may ask, why it is

[. . . or (ii’) why it is possible, or (iii’) why it is impossible],

and we may expect — or at least hope — to find a reasonable answer.

Of course, for any given case, X, we may simply directly proceed to ask why is X so, or why is X possible or why is X impossible, and seek a reasonable answer. So, the weak form as it stands is unobjectionable.  It is also central to science and to the project of being rational, responsible creatures.

Linked, we may ponder a claim some have advanced, that our world is just one stage in an ongoing infinite in the past and potentially infinite in the future, chain of successive, causally-temporally linked stages, back to the singularity and beyond without limit:

. . . s-n, s- (n-1), . . . s-2, s-1, NOW, s+1, s+2 . . .

This has been repeatedly debated here at UD, and I continue to hold that the proposed past infinity is incoherent as it has no basis to arrive at now in finite successive stages. Others have claimed differently. I doubt such claims as actual stepwise succession in finite steps cannot ever span a transfinite range.

So, we here see causality and intelligibility of being as key first principles of rationality. END

PS: As issues on dynamics and trajectories have been raised, here is a basic system diagram:

This gives a context to consider initial state, traversal across phase space and impact of intervening forces, noise etc.

Comments
ET, it is obvious that further discussion will not be helpful as it takes two parties willing to engage the substance of a matter for such progress. I am closing this thread. KFkairosfocus
December 24, 2018
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Calm down. Breathe. Take it one point at a time and keep it brief. Please (both of you) It becomes an instant turn-off to any readers when you talk past each other and post much more than what needs to be said. Merry ChristmasET
December 24, 2018
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kf, Again, I am amazed and slightly annoyed by your capacity to complicate simple matters. Sorry, I will have to jump to what matters and disregard the rest. You say: “there are well known views that would explain reality on blind chance and mechanical necessity. From Plato on — this is history not blind appeal to authority [you knocked over a strawman] — it has been recognised on record that a third factor is relevant, intelligently directed configuration. A significant issue is to distinguish the three, and it is relevant to also show why the third does not plausibly reduce to the first two.” …and then proceed to make a very obscure and unconvincing case for “necessity different than design”. In contrast, my case is very clear and simple as explained in par 5: “Necessity is Design to the best of our knowledge…” For instance, you say: “For the cosmos, the laws, constants etc are mathematical and can be manipulated through sensitivity analysis, which revealed fine tuning.” Are you saying “the laws of physics we observe are “mathematical” (universal and frozen for ever?). But this is not true as I explain in par 6: “Scientific laws are unknowable. Only instances of these laws are known with any certainty…”Nonlin.org
December 24, 2018
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PS: Walker and Davies on dynamical systems:
In physics, particularly in statistical mechanics, we base many of our calculations on the assumption of metric transitivity, which asserts that a system’s trajectory will eventually [--> given "enough time and search resources"] explore the entirety of its state space – thus everything that is phys-ically possible will eventually happen. It should then be trivially true that one could choose an arbitrary “final state” (e.g., a living organism) and “explain” it by evolving the system backwards in time choosing an appropriate state at some ’start’ time t_0 (fine-tuning the initial state). In the case of a chaotic system the initial state must be specified to arbitrarily high precision. But this account amounts to no more than saying that the world is as it is because it was as it was, and our current narrative therefore scarcely constitutes an explanation in the true scientific sense. We are left in a bit of a conundrum with respect to the problem of specifying the initial conditions necessary to explain our world. A key point is that if we require specialness in our initial state (such that we observe the current state of the world and not any other state) metric transitivity cannot hold true, as it blurs any dependency on initial conditions – that is, it makes little sense for us to single out any particular state as special by calling it the ’initial’ state. If we instead relax the assumption of metric transitivity (which seems more realistic for many real world physical systems – including life), then our phase space will consist of isolated pocket regions and it is not necessarily possible to get to any other physically possible state (see e.g. Fig. 1 for a cellular automata example).
[--> or, there may not be "enough" time and/or resources for the relevant exploration, i.e. we see the 500 - 1,000 bit complexity threshold at work vs 10^57 - 10^80 atoms with fast rxn rates at about 10^-13 to 10^-15 s leading to inability to explore more than a vanishingly small fraction on the gamut of Sol system or observed cosmos . . . the only actually, credibly observed cosmos]
Thus the initial state must be tuned to be in the region of phase space in which we find ourselves [--> notice, fine tuning], and there are regions of the configuration space our physical universe would be excluded from accessing, even if those states may be equally consistent and permissible under the microscopic laws of physics (starting from a different initial state). Thus according to the standard picture, we require special initial conditions to explain the complexity of the world, but also have a sense that we should not be on a particularly special trajectory to get here (or anywhere else) as it would be a sign of fine–tuning of the initial conditions. [ --> notice, the "loading"] Stated most simply, a potential problem with the way we currently formulate physics is that you can’t necessarily get everywhere from anywhere (see Walker [31] for discussion). ["The “Hard Problem” of Life," June 23, 2016, a discussion by Sara Imari Walker and Paul C.W. Davies at Arxiv.]
kairosfocus
December 24, 2018
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NL: Let me add some details: 1: initial conditions are those convenient for a particular analysis, there is no necessary import of origin of cosmos or the like. (That is a commonplace of the analysis of dymamical systems -- indeed in mechanics, "displacement" is distance moved in a relevant direction relative to a reference or initial point.) 2: sensitive dependence on INITIAL conditions is a core concept in chaos theory. Let me add a summary from Wikipedia, as a convenient source:
Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. "Chaos" is an interdisciplinary theory stating that within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, self-organization, and reliance on programming at the initial point known as sensitive dependence on initial conditions. The butterfly effect describes how a small change in one state [--> the relevant initial state or intervening state] of a deterministic nonlinear system [--> notice, this is what mechanical necessity is about] can result in large differences in a later state, e.g. a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil can cause a hurricane in Texas.[1] Small differences in initial conditions, such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation [--> or in a mechanical set-up etc, here we see how chance enters as a second causal factor], yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction [--> as opposed to sufficiently short term] of their behavior impossible in general.[2][3] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[4] [--> apart from in the initial conditions] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[5][6] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos. The theory was summarized by Edward Lorenz as:[7] Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future. Chaotic behavior exists in many natural systems, such as weather and climate.[8][9] It also occurs spontaneously in some systems with artificial components, such as road traffic . . . . [Let's add:] Sensitivity to initial conditions means that each point in a chaotic system is arbitrarily closely approximated by other points with significantly different future paths, or trajectories. Thus, an arbitrarily small change, or perturbation, of the current trajectory may lead to significantly different future behavior. [--> i.e. initial or intervening]
3: The singularity is indeed inferred from observed cosmological expansion and the like; this is similar to how the electron has never been directly observed. That is a commonplace of science, the issue is whether BB or electron are compelling, well supported best explanations for what we observe. 4: Darwin's pond etc are indeed model scenarios, for argument possible worlds to be explored and analysed given that there is a debate of paradigms to be addressed. 5: Initial conditions are the baseline from which further interventions are considered. This, again is an analytical commonplace. Notice, we use one-sided Laplace transforms that start from a zero point, as do the classic test functions. 6: Similarly, precise predictive power is an important standard in science, engineering, modelling etc, that is where confidence in empirical reliability is built up. 7: We are discussing in a wider context where there are well known views that would explain reality on blind chance and mechanical necessity. From Plato on -- this is history not blind appeal to authority [you knocked over a strawman] -- it has been recognised on record that a third factor is relevant, intelligently directed configuration. A significant issue is to distinguish the three, and it is relevant to also show why the third does not plausibly reduce to the first two. 8: In your diagram, you try to equate necessity and design. You claim: "Design is just a set of ‘laws’, making the design-vs-necessity distinction impossible." No, design is only possible where an intelligence can use purpose to impose a configuration. For DNA, the chaining of bases is contingent so information can be fed into particular sequencing. For the cosmos, the laws, constants etc are mathematical and can be manipulated through sensitivity analysis, which revealed fine tuning. 9: Kindly re-examine the analysis of logic of being. For one, compare the 2 x 2 options matrix: possible vs impossible of being with present in all worlds vs present in some. That sets a context of logical possibilities. 10: Now, ponder a fire and see that it has enabling factors, so it is contingent, it can begin or be blocked [that's 2 neighbouring possible worlds] and can be sustained or cease or even be put out. This is how contingent beings are, telling us about cause. 11: What happens if a being -- or better, a candidate being -- is not dependent on enabling factors? It will either always be present in any world or else it will be impossible of being in any world. So far, a concept. 12: Is this serious? Yes, as we live in a contingent world, and non-being has no causal power, we need some things that always were and are independent of other being, as adequate root of such a world. If a world now is, SOMETHING always was of adequate capability for such a world to become actual, one that includes morally governed creatures -- us. 13: It turns out we can see that a sufficient reason for such NB's to be present in any world is that they are framework for a world to exist. Distinct identity and its consequences are examples: it is not possible for a world to be in which two-ness etc do not obtain. And so forth. KFkairosfocus
December 24, 2018
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NL, have you worked with dynamical analysis or system modelling using systems theory, differential equations or difference equations? KFkairosfocus
December 23, 2018
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KF, Are you kidding me? Can't you answer a few simple questions with simple answers? ...without making a novel out of it? I am only reading your direct replies to the questions: 1. You're the one making a case for "initial" and now you say "whatever start point makes sense"? You should know this doesn't work - see chaos theory. Big bang has not been observed but inferred based on current observations and a ton of assumptions – it is not a good “start point” for anything. And of course "Darwin’s warm pond" is just a fictional start of a fictive story. 2-6. Seriously? "Initial" condition is meaningless if unknown intervening factors are significant. You got it exactly backwards: “MY recognition of intervening factors precisely shows the INSIGNIFICANCE of understanding start-points and the trajectories they set”. See tornadoes - who cares about the trajectory set by the "initial condition" when we seldom can forecast more than one day trajectory ahead and that only by assuming no major unknown intervening factors (wrong most of the time)? 7-8. To the contrary, science and Engineering praxis shows you that there’s always a limit to “precisely”. Combine that with chaos theory that affects anything complex enough like biology/cosmology and you have exactly ZERO precision, hence no determinism, hence no necessity. I am not dismissing the theory – just pointing out that you’re applying it beyond its acceptable scope. 9. Not a presumption, but a logical analysis: http://nonlin.org/intelligent-design/ 10. Good luck to Plato, but he’s wrong (not the first or last time) – see my analysis. We are debating “necessity” here, so your appeal to authority is undermining rather than supporting your argument. 11. Discussed – yes, convincing – no. You can’t seriously define something and then refer to it as “true in all possible worlds” just because you defined it so. I already discussed several counterexamples but you chose to label them as “Equivocating“ which really doesn’t fit: e·quiv·o·cate [??kwiv??k?t] VERB equivocating (present participle) use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself. 12. Huh? So where do all these leave us with respect to "necessity"? It still seems "necessity is not a thing".Nonlin.org
December 23, 2018
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NL, Perhaps, a glance at differential equation/ transfer function dynamics will help you, i/l/o the per aspect approach. Accordingly, I will append a basic block diagram of a dynamic-stochastic system in the OP above. In addition, the train of objections shows one reason why it is too often necessary to be more expansive than brevity would wish for in this sort of highly polarised, multiple aspect debate. Remarks are shaped by years of seeing that sort of repeated objection. Next, as it is historically a chief example, let us start from Newton's first law of motion [= momentum, in modern language], the law of inertia: "a body will continue in its state of rest or of uniform, straight line motion, unless it is affected by an external, unbalanced force." That is, the inertial property of mass m is such that force F = 0 => a = 0; i.e. neither a change of speed nor of direction. Momentum, P once initially present (even P = 0) will not change UNLESS there is an external and unbalanced force acting. In turn this means in part that a body at rest may reflect a pattern of forces in balance as regards each axis of motion and rotation, but it may well have deflections and distortions that reflect stress-strain relationships starting with Hooke's law etc. This first law also implies that any curvature in movement implies accelerated motion. (P = m*v.) This is the first aspect of momentum, the steady state due to inertia. Where, "aspect" is a crucial conceptual term:
3. a way in which a thing may be regarded; interpretation; view. 4. part; feature; phase, as of a subject or problem . . . 6. view commanded; exposure: a house with a southern aspect. 7. the side or surface facing a given direction: the dorsal aspect of a fish. [RHK Webster's]
That first aspect identifies a baseline, from which further aspects affect initial and onward motion and changes, i.e. dynamics. The second, Dynamic Law then informs us regarding moving bodies: "Force is the rate of change of momentum." Force, separately, is a push or pull which may distort and/or accelerate a body changing direction and/or speed. F = dP/dt, so if m = const, F = m*a. (A rocket is a relevant case of m != 0, thence Tsiolkovsky's rocket equations.) The third law on action and reaction, in expanded form: "bodies interact in pairs, and when they do so, they exert upon each other forces which are equal in size, opposite in direction and along the same line of action." That is, F_a + F_r = 0, vectorially. The effects of these forces will vary, depending on relative masses, freedom to move etc. This then sets up how the baseline changes, and indeed, differential equations for systems focus on input forcing functions, internal feedback and external results, including influences of noise [or stochastic aspects]. So, too, unless one separates out the underlying mechanical necessity at work (here F = dP/dt), one will be ill equipped to understand initial, intervening and onward states of affairs, trends and changes, disruptions etc. One of the reasons why classical writers did not get far with dynamics was that they did not isolate key aspects so they thought motion had to be forced, and onward thought in terms of a natural location, hence earth as disreputable sump of the cosmos. For example, understanding air resistance requires separating out unaccelerated motion, falling without air resistance and falling with air resistance. Where, later, lift-drag dynamics (which are very speed-dependent) will be material. Understanding mechanical necessity is a first principle of dynamics. Next, stochastic effects can trigger all sorts of random effects, ranging from being of minor importance to being utterly dominant. There have been sharp exchanges over "chance" here at UD too. The best answer is that we have quantum effects that seem inherently chance based and other forms of effective chance. Sometimes, a circumstance may be such that there is hyper-sensitivity to uncontrollable micro-variations, leading to chaos, e.g. a falling, tumbling die is in principle mechanical necessity but due to eight corners and twelve edges, the butterfly effect leads to an effectively unpredictable, uncontrolled outcome. Likewise, the clash of separately determined trains can produce statistical randomness. Classically, names are not random and telephone companies assign numbers in a planned way. But the two are uncorrelated so that the line codes can be used as a poor man's random number table. Similarly, pi is an exactly determined number, but the value is not coordinated with the system that assigns decimal digits, so extended tables of pi can be used as random number tables. The signatures of these two causal factors are that for a suitable circumstance, closely similar initial circumstances will exhibit low contingency or high contingency. A heavy die reliably falls at a known rate of acceleration. Once it tumbles and settles, the value is effectively unpredictable. Thirdly, of course, we have intelligently directed configuration. A string of 1,000 coins can be set to read out 143 ASCII code characters expressing a meaningful statement. The blind mechanical and chance forces of the observed cosmos will not suffice to adequately explain such. Now, it is ever easy to multiply sharpish questions and pose on dismissiveness or reducing the untutored interlocutor to confusion. That was in part what Socrates did, leading to his demise at the hands of his alienated compatriots. And while hemlock is usually not resorted to nowadays, there is the "don't feed da trolls" reaction beyond a certain point. So, it is better to go to a dialogue model of mutual exploration. So far, I have taken further time to show the importance of isolating key aspects of a situation and -- where it is possible -- using toy examples to tease out key factors that usually act together. That is the heart of the experimental method of investigation. Newton's triumph is a salutary lesson. Let me take a moment with your string of questions, i/l/o the above, noting that it takes time to find time to pause to address strings of such questions, which sometimes need to be deconstructed due to how loaded they are with prior contexts more than directly answered:
>>– What is “initial” in biology, cosmology or anywhere in nature?>> 1: what is temporally prior, at whatever start point makes sense. Big bang, solar dust cloud, Darwin's warm pond, first cell based life, branch point for multicellular, etc. 2: the question is too general to be simply answered otherwise. >>– How would you evaluate “precise determined trajectory”? There are ALWAYS intervening factors from “initial” to “final”.>> 3: Your recognition of intervening factors precisely shows the significance of understanding start-points and the trajectories they set. 4: Such trajectories are best studied on toy examples until reliable dynamics are in hand, then we may feed in complicating factors, such is standard science, engineering and modelling praxis. 5: The point where an intervening force acts is a secondary start point and the same dynamics allow for understanding its own impact, then we move to the second, third etc intervening forces at their points of action, including stochastic effects. 6: When we deal with continuum, we use calculus approaches to move to infinitesimal increments. >>– How would you “precisely” evaluate anything? What does “precisely” even mean (other than yet another theoretical concept)?>> 7: Refer to Science and Engineering praxis, where precision here includes both reliability and accuracy up to some calibration curve. The SI system and traceable measurement back to standards is relevant. Not everything can be spelled out to the convenience of a commenter on his demand . 8: Dismissiveness regarding theory is grossly ill-advised. >>– Some form of Design is ALWAYS present in the “initial” conditions or on the trajectory to the “final” so ‘necessity’ is never an alternative to ‘design’.>> 9: You have here built in a presumption of design. Detection of whether design is a credible, empirically evident cause is a key question of design theory, for excellent reason. 10: Chance and necessity, on the record since Plato in The Laws Bk X c 360 BC, have been viewed as alternatives to design. >>– “true in all possible worlds” still doesn’t make any sense in ANY possible world>> 11: Possible worlds has been already discussed, and what would exist in some vs all such worlds also. Likewise, what is not possible of being in any possible world. 12: That summary of the logic of being is not on trial. Our response to it is.
KFkairosfocus
December 23, 2018
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kf, Your monologue doesn't answer any of the concerns I raise about "necessity".Nonlin.org
December 21, 2018
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NL, mechanical necessity is one of the defaults in the explanatory filter. It is ruled out for a relevant aspect of a phenomenon based on high contingency of outcomes on closely similar initial conditions. Such high contingency then can be accounted for on chance and/or intelligently directed configuration. In the case where we have functionally coherent and configuration-specific complex [500 - 1000 bits+ of descriptive info] organisation and/or information, chance -- the second default -- is not plausible. That is how we reliably infer to design on FSCO/I. However, in aggregate, the behaviour of a system will manifest contributions of necessity, chance influences (often, "noise" or "random error") and possibly design. The core of Newtonian dynamics lays out relationships of mechanical necessity: F = 0 => a = 0, F = dP/dt, with m = const F = ma, Action = - reaction. By mechanical necessity, given initial conditions lead to precise, predictable outcomes; e.g. the launch of a rocket and Tsiolkovsky's eqns. Similarly, the classic projectile in vacuo, and we can bring in air resistance and still have deterministic trajectories, though the factors get much more complex. This applies to an ideal and extends to reality once chance disturbances are negligible. Otherwise, we feed them in, using sets of differential or difference equations. Sometimes things are too complex and we go to statistical mechanics or the like -- consider a large collection of boxes with marbles set out on a standard grid then simultaneously push hard on LHS pistons with the same size impulse. After a time the marbles in the boxes would follow many diverse tracks but will follow Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics, due to all sorts of butterfly effect factors . . . which inject uncontrollable randomness. Going beyond that immediate focus, the world we inhabit shows fine tuning of the physics, the mechanical necessity under discussion is for a going concern world. I trust this helps, much more can be elaborated, this is indicative and uses toy examples. KFkairosfocus
December 19, 2018
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kf, I said: "my strongest objection is to ‘necessity’ as alternative to ‘design’ in nature" You say: “mechanical necessity speaks to cases where once initial conditions and dynamics are set, a train of consequent stages unfolds in a precise determined trajectory [in phase space]” This doesn't address my concern because: - What is "initial" in biology, cosmology or anywhere in nature? - How would you evaluate "precise determined trajectory"? There are ALWAYS intervening factors from "initial" to "final". - How would you "precisely" evaluate anything? What does "precisely" even mean (other than yet another theoretical concept)? - Some form of Design is ALWAYS present in the "initial" conditions or on the trajectory to the "final" so 'necessity' is never an alternative to 'design'. - "true in all possible worlds" still doesn't make any sense in ANY possible world :)Nonlin.org
December 17, 2018
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Pruss' thesis: http://alexanderpruss.com/papers/PhilThesis.html -- on possible worlds.kairosfocus
December 17, 2018
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F/N: IEP on Necessary vs Contingent etc, using possible words speak: https://www.iep.utm.edu/apriori/#H3 >>3. The Necessary/Contingent Distinction A necessary proposition is one the truth value of which remains constant across all possible worlds. Thus a necessarily true proposition is one that is true in every possible world, and a necessarily false proposition is one that is false in every possible world. By contrast, the truth value of contingent propositions is not fixed across all possible worlds: for any contingent proposition, there is at least one possible world in which it is true and at least one possible world in which it is false. The necessary/contingent distinction is closely related to the a priori/a posteriori distinction. It is reasonable to expect, for instance, that if a given claim is necessary, it must be knowable only a priori. Sense experience can tell us only about the actual world and hence about what is the case; it can say nothing about what must or must not be the case. Contingent claims, on the other hand, would seem to be knowable only a posteriori, since it is unclear how pure thought or reason could tell us anything about the actual world as compared to other possible worlds. While closely related, these distinctions are not equivalent. The necessary/contingent distinction is metaphysical: it concerns the modal status of propositions. As such, it is clearly distinct from the a priori/a posteriori distinction, which is epistemological. Therefore, even if the two distinctions were to coincide, they would not be identical. But there are also reasons for thinking that they do not coincide. Some philosophers have argued that there are contingent a priori truths (Kripke 1972; Kitcher 1980b). An example of such a truth is the proposition that the standard meter bar in Paris is one meter long. This claim appears to be knowable a priori since the bar in question defines the length of a meter. And yet it also seems that there are possible worlds in which this claim would be false (e.g., worlds in which the meter bar is damaged or exposed to extreme heat). Comparable arguments have been offered in defense of the claim that there are necessary a posteriori truths. Take, for example, the proposition that water is H2O (ibid.). It is conceivable that this proposition is true across all possible worlds, that is, that in every possible world, water has the molecular structure H2O. But it also appears that this proposition could only be known by empirical means and hence that it is a posteriori. Philosophers disagree about what to make of cases of this sort, but if the above interpretation of them is correct, a proposition’s being a priori does not guarantee that it is necessary, nor does a proposition’s being a posteriori guarantee that it is contingent. Finally, on the grounds already discussed, there is no obvious reason to deny that certain necessary and certain contingent claims might be unknowable in the relevant sense. If indeed such propositions exist, then the analytic does not coincide with the necessary, nor the synthetic with the contingent.>> KFkairosfocus
December 17, 2018
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NL, language is inherently ambiguous so it is necessary to consider context. In this case, circles and squares are planar figures in the context of a familiar space commonly termed Euclidean. When one switches context without due attention or notice, an equivocation creates an apparent impossibility of incoherence but it is due to context switching. And that is not a substitution of theory for reality. Next, mechanical necessity speaks to cases where once initial conditions and dynamics are set, a train of consequent stages unfolds in a precise determined trajectory [in phase space]. When under closely similar initial conditions highly variable outcomes can and do happen, this is accounted for on chance (think, tumbling die) and/or intelligently directed configuration, e.g. we may set a die to a reading or may so load it that its outcome follows a preferred distribution. KFkairosfocus
December 17, 2018
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kairosfocus, Again, you wrongfully substitute theory to reality (which you improperly call "equivocation"). If you haven't noticed, like "evolution", Modern Physics is stuck. And that's due precisely to the differences between theory and reality. What does this mean: "mechanical necessity does not account for high contingency, only chance and/or intelligence can"?Nonlin.org
December 15, 2018
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NL: Equivocating the meaning of square and circular does not answer the question. Next, mechanical necessity does not account for high contingency, only chance and/or intelligence can; cf. Newton on this. After that, equivocating the sense of the + operator only shows the underlying problem. || + ||| --> |||||, symbolised 2 + 3 = 5 speaks for itself. Dogs interacting reproductively is a radically different process. Adding goes to the common denominator, 2 apples + 2 pears gives 4 fruit or even objects. Modern Physics relies on the distinct identity of mathematical symbols and operations to derive its results. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2018
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kairosfocus, To dispute "all possible worlds", let's take another example: 2+2=4. You mean to tell me that if I put 2 male and 2 female dogs in a black box, I will ALWAYS have 4 dogs when opening? What about 2 apples + 2 pears? Will that make 4 apples? 4 pears? This is not equivocation, it's real life that you assume can be put in a straitjacket. But it can't. Modern physics is full of such examples.Nonlin.org
December 14, 2018
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kairosfocus, I support logic as our best tool, but will not go as far as saying "in all possible worlds". You say: "the easiest case is something impossible of being, a square circle". What about triangles in curved space (sum of angles = 180 deg)? Same story? Regardless, my strongest objection is to 'necessity' as alternative to 'design' in nature, not to married bachelors. Why don't you address that? My assertion is that the ONLY 'necessity' instances we can confirm are rules imposed by design.Nonlin.org
December 14, 2018
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EG, that snowman works because of a host of quantitative and structural properties starting with temperature and its effects on water molecules, plus the form factor of the H2O molecule. Those are substantially mathematical, whether or not you are inclined to agree that such is the case. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2018
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Ed George:
I can make a snowman without using mathematics.
Cuz a snowman is so much like the universe. Clearly you don't have a clue. You can make a snowman because mathematics permeates the universe.
Surely God doesn’t require something as mundane as mathematics to create.
Cuz you noes. Pathetic. In the words of YECs God Created the universe using relativity, ie a mathematical conceptET
December 13, 2018
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How does Ed George think the universe was intelligently designed without the use of mathematics?
I can make a snowman without using mathematics. Surely God doesn't require something as mundane as mathematics to create.Ed George
December 13, 2018
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How does Ed George think the universe was intelligently designed without the use of mathematics?ET
December 13, 2018
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BA77, we must reckon with the effects of our education and cultural immersion. That can make it very hard to see that the admitted order in the world is substantially -- not just culturally -- quantitative and structural, being amenable to rational inquiry. Even, in the face of massive facts on the matter. That is how far gone our civilisation is. Sad. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2018
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And indeed, it is a miracle. Our ability to even apply math to the world in the first place is dependent on the universe being exceptionally, even miraculously, 'flat'. The reason why Euclidean (3 Dimensional) geometry is even applicable in our science, technology, and engineering in the first place is because the 4-Dimensional space-time of our universe (General Relativity) is exceptionally, and unexpectedly “flat”. As Fraser Cain stated in the following article, “We say that the universe is flat, and this means that parallel lines will always remain parallel. 90-degree turns behave as true 90-degree turns, and everything makes sense.,,, In fact, astronomers estimate that the universe must have been flat to 1 part within 1×10^57 parts. Which seems like an insane coincidence.’
How do we know the universe is flat? Discovering the topology of the universe – by Fraser Cain – June 7, 2017 Excerpt: We say that the universe is flat, and this means that parallel lines will always remain parallel. 90-degree turns behave as true 90-degree turns, and everything makes sense.,,, Since the universe is flat now, it must have been flat in the past, when the universe was an incredibly dense singularity. And for it to maintain this level of flatness over 13.8 billion years of expansion, in kind of amazing. In fact, astronomers estimate that the universe must have been flat to 1 part within 1×10^57 parts. Which seems like an insane coincidence. https://phys.org/news/2017-06-universe-flat-topology.html Why We Need Cosmic Inflation By Paul Sutter, Astrophysicist | October 22, 2018 Excerpt: As best as we can measure, the geometry of our universe appears to be perfectly, totally, ever-so-boringly flat. On large, cosmic scales, parallel lines stay parallel forever, interior angles of triangles add up to 180 degrees, and so on. All the rules of Euclidean geometry that you learned in high school apply. But there’s no reason for our universe to be flat. At large scales it could’ve had any old curvature it wanted. Our cosmos could’ve been shaped like a giant, multidimensional beach ball, or a horse-riding saddle. But, no, it picked flat. https://www.space.com/42202-why-we-need-cosmic-inflation.html
Simply put, without some remarkable degree of exceptional, and stable, flatness for the universe, (as well as exceptional stability for all the other constants), Euclidean (3-Dimensional) geometry would not be applicable to our world. or to the universe at large, and this would make science and engineering for humans, for all practical purposes, impossible.
Scientists Question Nature’s Fundamental Laws – Michael Schirber – 2006 Excerpt: “There is absolutely no reason these constants should be constant,” says astronomer Michael Murphy of the University of Cambridge. “These are famous numbers in physics, but we have no real reason for why they are what they are.” The observed differences are small-roughly a few parts in a million-but the implications are huge (if they hold up): The laws of physics would have to be rewritten, not to mention we might need to make room for six more spatial dimensions than the three that we are used to.”,,, The speed of light, for instance, might be measured one day with a ruler and a clock. If the next day the same measurement gave a different answer, no one could tell if the speed of light changed, the ruler length changed, or the clock ticking changed. http://www.space.com/2613-scientists-question-nature-fundamental-laws.html
In other words, it literally is a "1 in 10^57 miracle" that we are even able to apply Euclidean mathematics to the world in the first place in order to build technologically advanced civilizations.
Job 38:4-5 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
And indeed infusing math and logic, in a top down fashion, onto material substrates, has enabled the 'miracle' of modern technology,,,, (to repeat part of post 74)
Describing Nature With Math By Peter Tyson – Nov. 2011 Excerpt: Indeed, many of the technologies you and I enjoy every day simply would not work without mathematics. When you do a Google search, you’re relying on 19th-century algebra, on which the search engine’s algorithms are based. When you watch a movie, you may well be seeing mountains and other natural features that, while appearing as real as rock, arise entirely from mathematical models. When you play your iPod, you’re hearing a mathematical recreation of music that is stored digitally; your cell phone does the same in real time. “When you listen to a mobile phone, you’re not actually hearing the voice of the person speaking,” Devlin told me. “You’re hearing a mathematical recreation of that voice. That voice is reduced to mathematics.” http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/describing-nature-math.html Post 74 https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/logic-first-principles-4-the-logic-of-being-causality-and-science/#comment-669665
Nor, if the universe were not exceptionally flat, would we have ever been able to eventually discover the higher dimensional mathematics that lay behind our most accurate theories in science.
Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QDy1Soolo
In summary, Ed George's denial of the independent reality of the immaterial world of mathematics, the "Platonic" world, is insane. Of note: Ed George could have argued, via Godel, that the immaterial world of mathematics needs God to 'breathe fire into the equations', but that is not what he is arguing. He is instead arguing the absurd position that humans invent mathematics instead of discovering the hidden truths of a preexistent, immaterial, mathematical "Platonic", world.
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
bornagain77
December 13, 2018
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Ed George holds,,,
There is order in the universe and we are good at modelling it mathematically. But that doesn’t mean that mathematics exists without humans.
Ed George is basically saying that mathematics is invented by humans instead of being discovered by humans. Yet as was mentioned previously,
"However, if Pythagoras had not lived, someone else would have discovered exactly the same Pythagoras theorem. Moreover, that theorem means the same to us today as it meant to Pythagoras 2,500 years ago". – Edward Frenkel
And indeed there are no perfect triangles within the universe, yet we know for a fact that triangles exist independently of human experience.
Naturalism and Self-Refutation – Michael Egnor – January 31, 2018 Excerpt: Mathematics is certainly something we do. Is mathematics “included in the space-time continuum [with] basic elements … described by physics”? It seems a stretch. What is the physics behind the Pythagorean theorem? After all, no actual triangle is perfect, and thus no actual triangle in nature has sides such that the Pythagorean theorem holds. There is no real triangle in which the sum of the squares of the sides exactly equals the square of the hypotenuse. That holds true for all of geometry. Geometry is about concepts, not about anything in the natural world or about anything that can be described by physics. What is the “physics” of the fact that the area of a circle is pi multiplied by the square of the radius? And of course what is natural and physical about imaginary numbers, infinite series, irrational numbers, and the mathematics of more than three spatial dimensions? Mathematics is entirely about concepts, which have no precise instantiation in nature,, https://evolutionnews.org/2018/01/naturalism-and-self-refutation/
Moreover, as Dr. Egnor's article alluded to, Mathematics itself exists in a transcendent, beyond space and time, realm which is not reducible any possible material explanation. This transcendent mathematical realm has been referred to as a Platonic mathematical world.
Platonic mathematical world - image https://image.slidesharecdn.com/quantuminformation2-120301000431-phpapp01/95/quantum-information-14-728.jpg?cb=1330561190
In fact, 'Mathematical Platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics.,,,
Mathematical Platonism Excerpt: Mathematical platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics. This is unsurprising given its extremely natural interpretation of mathematical practice. In particular, mathematical platonism takes at face-value such well known truths as that "there exist" an infinite number of prime numbers, and it provides straightforward explanations of mathematical objectivity and of the differences between mathematical and spatio-temporal entities. Thus arguments for mathematical platonism typically assert that in order for mathematical theories to be true their logical structure must refer to some mathematical entities, that many mathematical theories are indeed objectively true, and that mathematical entities are not constituents of the spatio-temporal realm. The most common challenge to mathematical platonism argues that mathematical platonism requires an impenetrable metaphysical gap between mathematical entities and human beings. Yet an impenetrable metaphysical gap would make our ability to refer to, have knowledge of, or have justified beliefs concerning mathematical entities completely mysterious. Frege, Quine, and "full-blooded platonism" offer the three most promising responses to this challenge.,,, http://www.iep.utm.edu/mathplat/
The denial of the independent "platonic' existence of mathematics is an interesting position for Ed George to hold. Ed George has previously claimed, on UD, to be a Christian, and yet the only people who have a philosophical predisposition to deny the independent existence of mathematics are reductive materialists, i.e. Darwinists. In fact, Darwinists deny the independent reality of any immaterial, abstract, concepts. (such as soul, mind, personhood, justice, mercy, etc.. etc..)
For instance, the concept of species itself is an abstract, immaterial, concept that can find no grounding within atheistic materialism:,,, , As was touched upon,, the primary failing of atheistic materialism is that it denies the existence of the human soul altogether. In other words, the entire abstract, immaterial, concept of “you” existing as a real person can find no grounding within atheistic materialism. There simply is no “me”, “myself”, or “I” within the reductive materialism of the Darwinian worldview for atheists to appeal to: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-does-human-language-differ-from-animal-signals/#comment-669624
What is interesting is that although Darwinists, (and Ed George), deny that this Platonic mathematical realm exists, Darwinists need this transcendent world of mathematics to exist in order for their theory to even be considered scientific in the first place. Mathematics literally provides the backbone for all of science, engineering and technology
A VIEW OF MATHEMATICS - Alain Connes Excerpt: Mathematics is the backbone of modern science,,, http://www.alainconnes.org/docs/maths.pdf
The predicament that Darwinists, (and Ed George), find themselves in regards to denying the reality of this transcendent, immaterial, world of mathematics, and yet needing validation from this transcendent, immaterial, world of mathematics in order to be considered scientific in the first place, should be the very definition of a self-refuting worldview,,, (then again, the denial of free will by Darrwinists would rank right alongside the denial of mathematics as a self-refuting worldview).
What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: In fact, more problematic for the materialist than the non-existence of persons is the existence of mathematics. Why? Although a committed materialist might be perfectly willing to accept that you do not really exist, he will have a harder time accepting that numbers do not exist. The trouble is that numbers — along with other mathematical entities such as classes, sets, and functions — are indispensable for modern science. And yet — here’s the rub — these “abstract objects” are not material. Thus, one cannot take science as the only sure guide to reality and at the same time discount disbelief in all immaterial realities. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html
Moreover, the default assumption behind the quest to find a quote unquote "Theory of Everything" is that there really is some type of unifying (Platonic) mathematical structure behind the universe to be discovered, not invented, by man. In fact, both Einstein, who 'discovered' general relativity, and Eugene Wigner, who's insights into Quantum Mechanics continue to bear fruit for quantum mechanics (Zeilinger), are both on record as regarding it as a epistemological miracle that we are able to accurately model the universe with mathematics,,,
On the Rational Order of the World: a Letter to Maurice Solovine - Albert Einstein - March 30, 1952 Excerpt: "You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way .. the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the 'miracle' which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands. There lies the weakness of positivists and professional atheists who are elated because they feel that they have not only successfully rid the world of gods but “bared the miracles." -Albert Einstein http://inters.org/Einstein-Letter-Solovine The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
bornagain77
December 13, 2018
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F/N: Let us take a key observation:
There is order in the universe and we are good at modelling it mathematically. But that doesn’t mean that mathematics exists without humans.
Here we see the concept that mathematics is essentially a human practice, a study. The contrast, there is order in the cosmos then uses a shift in terminology that misses a key aspect of that order -- it is in material part inherently quantitative and structural. That is, it is of the substance that we may appropriately call mathematical. Not that the labelling creates the reality as an inner phenomenon locked away from the world of things in themselves by the ugly gulch, that collective labelling (see the slippery slope to solipsism?) is a response to discovery. We must face that, starting with that once any distinct world is, that means that there is inherently a contrast between some A and what is not A, ~A. Existence as a distinct physical entity or even as an idea immediately has as corollary, distinction from what is not the same. We therefore see existence vs non-existence, nullity. We see existence, unity. We see contrast thus duality. The numbers 0, 1, 2 swim into view, not the labels [numerals] we happen to find convenient, the substance. This surfaces the question, what is truth. Again, not the label but the substance. To which Aristotle's response speaks: truth says of what is that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. Truth accurately describes reality. It is attainable by us in key cases, e.g. error exists is undeniably true. And as that is so, knowledge exists as warranted, reliable truth that we acknowledge [to know, one has to accept, to actually believe], in this case to utter certainty. Of course, nowadays, it is a struggle to form a coherent concept of truth, warrant, knowledge. That is how impoverished our sadly suicidally bent civilisation has become. And of course, yes these are going to seem strange and will be hard or even bitter to swallow. That is going to take time. Now, back to the mathematical substance of reality. We see from distinct identity of a world, that the natural numbers are necessarily substantially present given the force of that identity. But, isn't all of this just in our heads, if we aren't here to do math it vanishes for want of sufficiently complex brains, poof. Nope. || + ||| --> ||||| obtains whether we are there to perceive and contemplate it or not. Two is even and the first prime. Three is prime simply as it cannot be evenly shared in a whole number of slots apart from by ones. And so forth, property after property. We come along, discover significance, label, embed in systems of thought. But all of that is in response to substance that we find it necessary to accurately describe. We develop symbols: 2 + 3 = 5 Those are cultural, convenient, helpful. But they are not the substance, they are our way to handle that substance. A substance of reality that is quantitative (amenable to measure) and structural (bound up in coherent relationships). We label such, Mathematics. That does not create a discipline by the poof-magic of words, it is a way for us to refer to the substantial reality and to our explorations and development. But that's just your view. Nope, views must be accountable to substantial reality. That substance starts with there being a distinct world. We are seeing something that is objectively true, credibly accurately describing realities that are beyond being figments of imagination such as Mr Spock or Fr Brown or Tolkein's world and rings. Beyond numbers we may see the continuum, the rock falls through space. But what is space. We see here a quantitative structure tied to length and dimensionality. There is more or less of length and it can be in different directions. To get there conceptually, we need integers (thus negative numbers), we need fractions, we need power series that can sum to infinite numbers of terms and which converge in some cases, as we discovered -- nope, it was not an invention -- the irrationals. Sqrt-2 deserves to be a famous number once it was seen that the diagonal of a square was inherently in-commensurable with its sides. Imagine, this was actually seen as of such significance that it was viewed with religious awe. Yes, they saw more truly than we now do in too many cases, this sees into the roots of reality. Likewise, 0 = 1 + e^i*pi should not only give high confidence in the coherence of vast domains in maths, but it should give us a view into the roots of reality. Another day. Just to get to understand the space in which a stone falls, we have seen a huge body of quantitative structures embedded inextricably in reality. The substance is there. Bring on the time for a trajectory and we see the same continuum again. Then, to get to the substance of the gravitation that is at root of the force that triggers the accelerated motion, we find not only further structures and quantities such as displacement x, velocity dx/dt and acceleration dv/dt as well as the panoply of infinitesimals, limits etc, but also the warping of spacetime through the influence of a massive body, a planet. (A ship or a mountain shows similar effects, on a smaller scale.) Then, looking through telescopes, we find that gravitation is central to the grand structure and function of the overall world we inhabit. Reality is pervaded with a rationally accessible framework that is quantitative and structural. Nor does the struggle we may have to acknowledge that pervasive substance change it. It simply forces us to face the need to pursue comparative difficulties and recognise what is a superior explanation. It is simply not good enough to say, oh yes order without acknowledging the specific type: structural, quantitative -- that is, mathematical. And so, we come to Newton, in his General Scholium to Principia; who was moved to an exercise in philosophical theology as he pondered his discoveries:
. . . This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator , or Universal Ruler; for God is a relative word, and has a respect to servants; and Deity is the dominion of God not over his own body, as those imagine who fancy God to be the soul of the world, but over servants. The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect; but a being, however perfect, without dominion, cannot be said to be Lord God; for we say, my God, your God, the God of Israel, the God of Gods, and Lord of Lords; but we do not say, my Eternal, your Eternal, the Eternal of Israel, the Eternal of Gods; we do not say, my Infinite, or my Perfect: these are titles which have no respect to servants. The word God usually signifies Lord; but every lord is not a God. It is the dominion of a spiritual being which constitutes a God: a true, supreme, or imaginary dominion makes a true, supreme, or imaginary God. And from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present; and by existing always and every where, he constitutes duration and space. Since every particle of space is always, and every indivisible moment of duration is every where, certainly the Maker and Lord of all things cannot be never and no where. Every soul that has perception is, though in different times and in different organs of sense and motion, still the same indivisible person. There are given successive parts in duration, co-existent puts in space, but neither the one nor the other in the person of a man, or his thinking principle; and much less can they be found in the thinking substance of God. Every man, so far as he is a thing that has perception, is one and the same man during his whole life, in all and each of his organs of sense. God is the same God, always and every where. He is omnipresent not virtually only, but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved [i.e. cites Ac 17, where Paul evidently cites Cleanthes]; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [i.e accepts the cosmological argument to God.] Whence also he is all similar, all eye, all ear, all brain, all arm, all power to perceive, to understand, and to act; but in a manner not at all human, in a manner not at all corporeal, in a manner utterly unknown to us. As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things. He is utterly void of all body and bodily figure, and can therefore neither be seen, nor heard, or touched; nor ought he to be worshipped under the representation of any corporeal thing. [Cites Exod 20.] We have ideas of his attributes, but what the real substance of any thing is we know not. In bodies, we see only their figures and colours, we hear only the sounds, we touch only their outward surfaces, we smell only the smells, and taste the savours; but their inward substances are not to be known either by our senses, or by any reflex act of our minds: much less, then, have we any idea of the substance of God. We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [i.e from his designs]: we admire him for his perfections; but we reverence and adore him on account of his dominion: for we adore him as his servants; and a god without dominion, providence, and final causes, is nothing else but Fate and Nature. Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [That is, implicitly rejects chance, Plato's third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.] But, by way of allegory, God is said to see, to speak, to laugh, to love, to hate, to desire, to give, to receive, to rejoice, to be angry, to fight, to frame, to work, to build; for all our notions of God are taken from. the ways of mankind by a certain similitude, which, though not perfect, has some likeness, however. And thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearances of things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy.
Yes, the mathematical substance that we find inextricably intertwined in the fabric of reality may be disturbing and may challenge us to ponder its worldviews significance. Perhaps, that was intended by the One who framed it. But, that is an onward question, the matter before us is the need to acknowledge that rationally accessible framework of structure and quantity. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2018
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EG, by twisting a question of diagnosis of trends in the history of ideas -- specifically, the evident influence of Kant's ugly gulch -- into a claimed ad hominem you just went beyond the pale of civil discourse. Kindly, walk back. It remains, that the concepts, patterns and observations you appealed to to try to drive a wedge between physics and mathematics have consistently turned out to be pervaded by issues of structure and quantity. It is further clear from the above that you have been unresponsive to those clear facts. That calls for diagnosis and candidate number one is the influence of Kant's error of imposing an unbridgeable gulch between our inner world (where we carry out our reflections on the logic of structure and quantity) and the outer one of things in themselves, where we readily see the pervasiveness of structure and quantity. The correlation between our rational reflections and the world we inhabit, experience, explore and observe does point to that world having a rational structure tracing to the same source as our minds. That's an onward issue, the question that lags from posts 1, 2 and 3 in the series is that we need to ponder the mathematical aspect of reality. That aspect starts with yet another issue that requires appropriate response: for there to be a distinct world, there must be distinct identity, thus we see W = {A|~A} thence duality, unity, nullity and also the emergence of the natural numbers and things tied thereto. As JAD pointed out, the naturals include primes, which are a classic example of DISCOVERY rather than invention by human creativity. Similarly, Pythagoras' generalisation of the 3-4-5 result and the like led to the shocking discovery of irrationals. Mathematicians explore logic model worlds indeed but in so doing they often encounter necessarily existent entities that then must appear in all possible worlds, precisely because they are part of the framework for any world to exist. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2018
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The physics is not on trial, nor is the mathematical framework of reality. Responsiveness to such is, and finding the relevant facts unpersuasive is sadly diagnostic. KF
The fact that you can’t tolerate respectful disagreement without resorting to personal attack, you will forgive me for desiring not to pursue any future discussion with you. Life is too short. I wish you well.Ed George
December 12, 2018
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EG, the phenomena in question are inextricably part of the matrix of reality: space, time, change, rates of action, and more. These and many others are inherently structural and quantitative. This is why the substance of that rational framework of structure and quantity is integral to reality. This is why it is appropriate for us to respond using our rational responsible freedom, studying the logic of structure and quantity and how it is embedded in reality as key facets of our culture. Err though we may often do in that process. And so, again and again I hear the echo of the Kantian ugly gulch when I find you trying to sever the inextricably entangled. So, I again point you to F H Bradley's corrective -- which you have never acknowledged. Namely, s/he who imagines that things in themselves are unknowable, across the gulch, by that postulate imply a claimed knowledge of such extramental reality. Thus, self-referential incoherence. We may err but we also can credibly know reality as our rational faculties reach out to the world we inhabit. And indeed a first self-evident truth is that error exists. So, truth exists and in some cases is knowable to undeniable certainty. In your latest case, the metastable diamond structure emerges through pressure and temperature interacting with the structural and quantitative, quantum properties of C-atoms. Where, pressure is a metric of force per unit area and temperature one of the average random energy per degree of microscopic freedom for a body or system. These concepts are deeply pervaded with issues of structure and quantity, which are thus mathematical; diamonds do not, cannot form apart from these inherently mathematical factors; something which is normally studied as part of any undergraduate programme in physics. Again, the grips of a cultural process are patently at work; one that seems to be coming in the main from trends in the arts in recent decades, as its influences are evidently unaware of relevant physics and its inextricably mathematical aspects. The physics is not on trial, nor is the mathematical framework of reality. Responsiveness to such is, and finding the relevant facts unpersuasive is sadly diagnostic. KF PPS: As a reminder, Bradley, 1897:
We may agree, perhaps, to understand by metaphysics an attempt to know reality as against mere appearance, or the study of first principles or ultimate truths, or again the effort to comprehend the universe, not simply piecemeal or by fragments, but somehow as a whole [--> i.e. the focus of Metaphysics is critical studies of worldviews] . . . . The man who is ready to prove that metaphysical knowledge is wholly impossible . . . himself has, perhaps unknowingly, entered the arena . . . To say the reality is such that our knowledge cannot reach it, is a claim to know reality ; to urge that our knowledge is of a kind which must fail to transcend appearance, itself implies that transcendence. For, if we had no idea of a beyond, we should assuredly not know how to talk about failure or success. And the test, by which we distinguish them, must obviously be some acquaintance with the nature of the goal. Nay, the would-be sceptic, who presses on us the contradictions of our thoughts, himself asserts dogmatically. For these contradictions might be ultimate and absolute truth, if the nature of the reality were not known to be otherwise . . . [such] objections . . . are themselves, however unwillingly, metaphysical views, and . . . a little acquaintance with the subject commonly serves to dispel [them]. [Appearance and Reality, 2nd Edn, 1897 (1916 printing), pp. 1 - 2; INTRODUCTION. At Web Archive.]
kairosfocus
December 12, 2018
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EG, do you not see that the very concepts you refer to, such as falling, rates, even gravitation are deeply, inextricably pervaded with issues of structure and quantity such that the neat separation you imagine between physical reality and mathematical models is impossible?
The separation is impossible because the mathematical models we have developed accurately model the physical reality. The horse always precedes the cart.
That is what I have repeatedly shown, and it is what you have repeatedly ignored. That inattention is by now diagnostic.
Not found compelling is not the same as ignored. If you are going to be so dismissive and insulting, I don’t think this discussion is worth my time and effort. Please show me the respect I have shown you.
Also, it should by now be clear that reality is deeply embedded with structural and quantitative aspects so that the substance of reality is intensely mathematical.
I agree. There is order in the universe and we are good at modelling it mathematically. But that doesn’t mean that mathematics exists without humans. A crystal can be modelled to the finest detail mathematically. But the diamond forms independent of the math and dependent on atomic structure and how it reacts to temperature and pressure.Ed George
December 12, 2018
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