Dr Raoult in his own voice on HCQ, with English sub-titles

Which, will take several months to over a year depending. Similar to the hoped for vaccination. kairosfocus

If zinc is an effective treatment, trials should show it. If it’s a miracle cure, this should be spotted quickly.

You actually followed a link but as usual provided a nitpick. It already has a response and it is nearly 100% cure. Apparently you are not following the links provided here. The control is no treatment with thousands of deaths which is the current method of treatment. At last look there are over 60 doctors who have signed on to a treatment that seems to work in nearly all cases. I have seen no logical argument against its use other than we have to wait for a controlled study. jerry

BO'H, pardon but you overlook the recent Raoult study of in vitro effects released at the same time as his 80 patient study that led to a response by the French authorities and was shortly followed by stage 2 emergency approvals by FDA. It was announced here at UD within a few days of the release. That study specifically focussed on plausible in tissue concentrations. Your wording also leaves a dismissive impression when in fact work with animal physiological analogues has long been a major investigatory technique. So, from 15 years ago, we have documented broad based chemical action against RNA and DNA viruses, bacteria and yeasts. We have more recent in vitro work pointing to effectiveness against SARS2. We know HCQ is an effective drug, making a ready transition from the gut to the bloodstream and body. We know it works as an anti inflammatory [relevant to out of control inflammatory response]. We have reasonable management procedures for side effects and dosages.We have thousands of cases showing significant action, by contrast with the de facto baseline treatments. Yes, there are objections and there are headlined seemingly contrary studies, but these seem to come from late stage interventions. In short, there is reason to see this as a reasonable candidate, given epidemic situation and the time a vaccine and other trials approaches will take . . . not even counting epistemological, logical and ethical concerns. KF kairosfocus

Jerry @ 61 - ah, thanks for that link. It show activity in a culture of cells from a monkey, which is a long way from showing that it will work to help patients. There is no guarantee that infected cells in patients will receive a high enough concentration of zinc, or if they do that other cells won't receive too much zinc. It's well established in drug development that most drugs that work in the lab aren't effective in practice (that's why the process of drug development is so slow, because their effect has to be checked). If zinc is an effective treatment, trials should show it. If it's a miracle cure, this should be spotted quickly. Bob O'H

Jerry

Combination of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin as potential treatment for COVID 19 patients: pharmacology, safety profile, drug interactions and management of toxicity. - April 22, 2020 Guillaume Hache, Jean Marc Rolain, Philippe Gautret, JeanClaude Deharo, Philippe Brouqui, Didier Raoult, Stéphane Honoré CONCLUSION According to these data, the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin appears to have a theoretical safe profile with few clinically relevant drug-drug interactions. The main side-effects related to hydroxychloroquine are gastrointestinal symptoms and mainly nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. The main risk of the drug combination remains the risk of cardiac toxicity which can be prevented by respecting the contraindications of each drug and monitoring through systematic electrocardiogram and ionogram during the association. Our current observations and practices illustrate the efficacy of risk management. Data about safety of alternative dose regimen of this protocol, ongoing in clinical trials with COVID-19 patients are needed. https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin-and-covid-19response-to-magagnoli-medrxiv-2020-2/

bornagain77

There was no treatment for this disease other than to ameliorate the symptoms of the patient and hope the immune system will defeat it.

This point should be emphasized again and again. People were dying by the thousands without a way to treat them than hoping their immune system would overcome the virus. Then someone comes along and says we have a treatment that seems to work based on some past research. Let's try it. And it apparently did work. And what do we get but massive resistance to trying something that seems to work. Why? Why do a large percentage of the population object to a harmless treatment that seems to work based on some past research and very positive current results? And it is incredibly inexpensive. Unbelievable cynicism is the only explanation. I am sure some of the nitpickers will pick up on my used of the word "harmless" but this is in fact what has been found by using this treatment on C19 patients. jerry

this discussion has gone over several threads, so it would take me long time to go through them to find the relevant links.

Maybe you should not comment then if you do not try to understand the arguments. Zinc first appeared here as a way to eliminate the virus about a month ago and has been mentioned hundreds of times since. I first found the discussion of zinc on an Austrian medical site (medmastery) when someone on my twitter thread said this site undermined HCQ as a valid drug for the C19 virus. The same site then extolled the value of zinc in conjunction with HCQ. Then I found the same discussion on a US medical site (MedCram aimed at doctors and medical professionals) and then here. I rarely come here anymore and popped in and found a discussion on the virus with good information especially with the Zelenko discussion. I was unaware of it but combined it with my other sources to try to understand what it is all about. So I feel I can comment mainly with backing by medical sources. And by my understanding of human behavior. Here is the main reference to zinc and HCQ working in tandem. HCQ seems to have other benefits besides being an ionophore. That was provided in other places.

Zn(2+) inhibits coronavirus and arterivirus RNA polymerase activity in vitro and zinc ionophores block the replication of these viruses in cell culture. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21079686

There was no treatment for this disease other than to ameliorate the symptoms of the patient and hope the immune system will defeat it. So any controlled study will take a lot of time as it is compared to doing nothing but making the patient comfortable. Thousands have died under this strategy. jerry

Start with this paper, Bob O'H: Effect of Zinc Salts on Respiratory Syncytial Virus Replication Then use google to find moar!!! ET

What science says this?

Clinical trials? No clinical trials.

OK, so science can't say that it has a therapeutic effect. At least not in humans. Rats, maybe. Or cells in Petri dishes.

You have been exposed to the links discussing it which indicates you are not following the information flow.

True, and my apologies for that. But this discussion has gone over several threads, so it would take me long time to go through them to find the relevant links. I was hoping you'd be kind enough to help. Bob O'H

What science says this? Clinical trials?

No clinical trials. I doubt they would expend the money on a drug that cost literally pennies per dose. The zinc supplement at the Zelenko dosage cost 7 cents per day for 5 days. Given the current nightmare there are some planned. Meanwhile tens of thousands have died and not told of a solution that cost 35 cents. There was a study showing HCQ is an ionosphere for zinc and it stopped a previous version of coronavirus. You have been exposed to the links discussing it which indicates you are not following the information flow. jerry

Well, Bob O’H, the science says that zinc plus an ionophore, like HC, will prevent the virus from replicating.

Wat science says this? Clinical trials? Can you give a link to it? Bob O'H

Jerry, 27:

I’m not as interested in the evolution debate because the evidence is so overwhelming in one direction. Note the irony of using that term because that is the word Darwinist constantly used without providing any evidence.

What tipped the balance for me was when it truly registered that DNA is alphanumeric, algorithmic code in the literal heart of the cell. As in, language applied to goal-directed, finite, stepwise halting process requiring a cluster of molecular nanotech execution machinery. This has been on the table literally since Crick's March 19, 1953 letter to his son, which sold some years ago for US$ 6 mn. Language so applied is absolutely decisive, period. So, the onward issue is fundamentally epistemological: what explains the institutionalised selective hyperskepticism that has led to blindness to the significance of findings that won several Nobel prizes. So, they cannot be seen as things done in a corner. A key clue comes from Monod, as I discussed here at UD. There, we find the smoking gun, from the mouth of one of the Nobel Prize winners. Then, as we turn to the current issue, lo and behold, the same underlying pattern is showing up, with lives on the line. KF kairosfocus

Zinc is great

It seems that no matter how many times one posts a valid link or reason, it will be questioned by the same person at a later time or by another person who does not pay attention. Zinc has been a center of focus here since Zelenko appeared in an OP 4 weeks ago. One would have thought it might have. gotten through by now. I actually thought it was funny because my wife and I always joked about Zicam. Every time we took it our cold went away. Sometimes in a day, sometimes in 2 weeks. jerry

Zinc is great at killing bacteria, too. You just have to do it with moderation. It's also great for curing acne. 30-45mg/ day. But if you are sick with the flu or covid 19, then you up the dose for up to two weeks. ET

Well, Bob O'H, the science says that zinc plus an ionophore, like HC, will prevent the virus from replicating. The youtube video cites peer-reviewed work on zinc and viruses. So any doctor who knows that and goes with HC alone, shouldn't be allowed near patients. Any doctor that doesn't know that is ignorant and shouldn't be allowed to teat patients. ET

EVMS CRITICAL CARE COVID-19 MANAGEMENT PROTOCOL:

• Vitamin C 500 mg BID • Zinc 75-100 mg/day (acetate, gluconate or picolinate; do not use for more than 2 months) • Quercetin 500-1000 mg/day • Melatonin (slow release): Begin with 0.3mg and increase as tolerated to 1-2 mg at night • Vitamin D3 1000-4000 u/day (optimal dose unknown; likely that those with baseline low 25-OH vitamin D and those > 40o latitude will benefit the most)

ET

Sev, have you been noticing how I have been pointing to an old pharmaco prof's opening for his pharmacology course? The opening that shocked 1st year, bright-eyed, bushy tailed med students: pharmacology is the study of poisons in small doses. Yes, there is a Goldilocks zone for Zn, as for water, salt, sugars, you name it. When you got hit with an RNA virus, the overall needs of your body shift for long enough to suppress the invasion until the immune system can kick in without blowing up into a cytokine storm. In that window, Zn plus an ionophore can make a key difference. And it helps that the drug is going to be rapidly excreted so things will go back quickly. KF kairosfocus

@48 Seversky

Simply pumping more zinc into the body willy-nilly may do more harm than good.

Speaking of charlatanery. More means nothing scientifically speaking. More in science depends on the context. That's why studies are needed. Those that darwinists love so much although paradoxically we can not trust our monkey minds. Truthfreedom

Simply pumping more zinc into the body willy-nilly may do more harm than good.

Tell that to the medical sites that are recommending and to the several hundred patients receiving it with good results. jerry

A simple search on zinc metabolism will find that, like other nutrients, too little zinc can cause deficiency symptoms but too much can be toxic,. The body already has good zinc transport mechanisms for getting the required amount into the cells. Increasing the amount of zinc may have antiviral effects but we need to know how much, if any. Simply pumping more zinc into the body willy-nilly may do more harm than good. This is one of the reasons we need why we need properly-conducted trials. Regardless of any hyperbole about "gold standard", they are what stand between us and the rampant charlatanry and fraud of past centuries. Seversky

BO'H, you know there is a web site with much more data. What the OP does is it allows us to actually hear the man in his own voice. Something, that is desperately needed given the hysteria. And that's part of why I just put up UWI's teleconference. KF kairosfocus

kf - do you have something more rigorous than a youtube video? Bob O'H

PS: From the new Brazilian study, background: >>The [SARS2] infection early stage is characterized mainly by respiratory symptoms, including fever, cough, sore throat and fatigue (4). Later, high viral replication, high inflammatory activity and exacerbated immune response leads to a “cytokine storm”, which is responsible for complications, such as severe pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome (5), with increased requirement of ventilatory support and intensive care unit (ICU) admission (1, 6) --> See Science article: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/how-does-coronavirus-kill-clinicians-trace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes ] . . . . Chloroquine was first synthesized in Germany in 1934 and has been used for decades as first-line drug in the treatment and prophylaxis of malaria. Previews in vitro studies had reported that chloroquine has antiviral activity against several RNA- viruses, such as rabies (9), poliovirus (10), Hepatitis A and C viruses (11, 12), Influenza A and B (13, 14), Dengue (15), Zika (16) and recently also against coronavirus (17). [--> in literature, it also affects DNA viruses, some bacteria, yeast etc; this suggests, effects against core cellular mechanisms] Mechanism of action includes blocking cell infection by increasing the endosomal pH and interfering with the glycosylation of the SARS-CoV2 cell receptor (18, 19). [--> the Zn effect of helping to admit Zn is also raised, several mechanisms may be working jointly, an advantage as it likely makes a resistance mutation probabilistically harder to find] According to Chinese reports, approximately 100 patients infected and treated with chloroquine had a faster decline in fever, improved images of pulmonary tomography (CT), with shorter recovery time, and no serious adverse effects were observed (20). Hydroxychloroquine, a derivative of chloroquine, has a hydroxyl group at the end of the side chain, having pharmacokinetics similar to chloroquine, with rapid gastrointestinal absorption and renal excretion [--> comes in fast, circulates in blood, goes out fast, reducing build-up effects, so does something you want drugs to do: get into the body, do its job, get out], in addition to a less toxic profile (21). Hydroxychloroquine also has been demonstrated to inhibit SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro (22). [--> specific antiviral action, with something likely to get into tissues fast through the gut and blood stream, then go out through kidneys] Moreover, Gautret et al (23) in an open-label non-randomized clinical trial with a small sample size have reported that hydroxychloroquine significantly reduced viral carriage on day 6 post-treatment compared to control group. [--> early Raoult work, now supported by later work. Note, as there is a natural baseline of typical treatments, we can identify differential effects] Furthermore, adding azithromycin to hydroxychloroquine increased treatment’s effectiveness. [--> synergy] A randomized study from China also found that patients treated with hydroxychloroquine compared to control improved lung imaging findings and had shorter time to clinical recovery (24). [--> preventing needing a ventilator] The antiviral and anti-inflammatory activities of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine may be responsible for its efficacy in COVID-19 treatment (19, 25). [--> may . . . ] Moreover they are well-studied drugs with limited toxicity (26) and generally mild and transient side effects (27). The use of chloroquine for more than 70 years as an antimalarial treatment reinforces its safety for acute administration. Long prescription of hydroxychloroquine for rheumatic disease also has demonstrated the low incidence of adverse events for periods up to five years (26). [--> low likelihood of unexpected damaging effects] Furthermore, hydroxychloroquine’s low cost makes it a feasible option for massive scale use. >> Perhaps, this will help rebalance. KF kairosfocus

there is a new Brazil study

I have seen it and was going to post it but you beat me to it. jerry

Jerry, there is a new Brazil study on the table, please scroll up to 32. KF kairosfocus

HEALTH AND SCIENCE Trump says he ‘totally disagrees’ with Georgia Gov. Kemp’s decision to reopen businesses in the middle of coronavirus pandemic https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/trump-says-he-totally-disagrees-with-georgia-gov-kemps-decision-to-reopen-businesses-in-the-middle-of-coronavirus-pandemic.html Jim Thibodeau

BO'H: Zn plus pathways into cells does work, as the medcram video speaks of. KF kairosfocus

RH7, please read what has come up already. First, the trials are real, and produced real results consistent with the chemical and somatic activity of the relevant compounds; the gold standard fallacy is just that, fallacious. Next, if you are in hospital headed for ventilator use, the disease is far advanced in damage already done to lungs; the point as the Brazil study shows, is to prevent getting to that hard to reverse state. Have you listened to Dr Zelenko, you don't sound like it. I think we need to go back to first principles, e.g. there is no magic in the BIO in biochemistry. Immediately as a compound known to get into tissues in measurable concentration acts on cells in relevant ways at such concentrations, there is a potential for drug action. That has been tested in this case and results consistent with that expectation are back. Where, the point for using the cocktail with supplements is to PREVENT the sort of damage that is there once one needs to be hospitalised. At that point, you are already at second or third best options. KF kairosfocus

don’t you think it’s possible that they do know bout zinc, but in their estimation, they don’t think it’ll be effective?

Do you know this? It has appeared on three well respected medical sites highlighting that it essentially prevents the virus from replicating. There was the case of a doctor in Texas who was prime for dying and contracted C19 and took the Zelenko medicine and then recovered in a few days but said he wouldn't recommend it to others. Because he felt really bad for a couple days. Apparently being alive is not a good result when feeling crappy for a couple days is necessary to achieve it. Dr. Zelenko said he has received same reaction from some of his patients who called and say treatment was not working. Zelenko's response was I am glad you are still alive. He has nearly 100% success. There is a medical movement to report all results of HCQ and the use of zinc. So far no negatives when used appropriately. But what do you get from the press: the fish tank episode, the VA hospital fake news study, the Brazilian study that tripled the dosage. jerry

More misleading news from RHampton. He is getting to be a pretty reliable source for it. jerry

ET - don't you think it's possible that they do know bout zinc, but in their estimation, they don't think it'll be effective? Bob O'H

Why are doctors so ignorant of zinc? HC is supposed to be used with zinc. You have to be dense to not use the two together. People are dying due to medical ignorance. How pathetic is that? ET

As per six studies examined by a team of researchers in Iran (as well as a few choice studies from both China and France), using the drug can’t actually shorten the recovery time. In fact, when compared to standard care, which usually includes oxygen, fluids, monitoring and other supportive care, there is no relevant difference in outcomes. The findings of the research were published Apr. 20 on medRxiv.org. However, since COVID-19 is a respiratory disease that targets our lungs, additional examinations were made. Per the results, there are slightly more people that took the drugs and showed clearer lungs compared with those that are on standard treatment. rhampton7

Hydroxychloroquine seems not to cut ventilator use in COVID-19 There is no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine alone (HC) or with azithromycin (HC+AZ) reduces the risks for mechanical ventilation or death from any cause in patients hospitalized with COVID-19, according to a study that has not yet been peer reviewed and was posted online April 21 at medRxiv.org. Joseph Magagnoli, from the Columbia VA Health Care System in South Carolina, and colleagues performed a retrospective analysis of data from 368 patients hospitalized with confirmed severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 infection: 97 treated with HC, 113 with HC+AZ, and 158 with no HC. The researchers found that the rates of death were 27.8, 22.1, and 11.4 percent, respectively, in the HC, HC+AZ, and no HC groups. The rates of ventilation were 13.3, 6.9, and 14.1 percent in the HC, HC+AZ, and no HC groups, respectively. The risk for death from any cause was higher in the HC group (adjusted hazard ratio [aHR], 2.61; 95 percent confidence interval [CI], 1.10 to 6.17; P = 0.03), but not in the HC+AZ group (aHR, 1.14; 95 percent CI, 0.56 to 2.32; P = 0.72) compared with the no HC group. Compared with the no HC group, the risk for ventilation was similar in the HC group (aHR, 1.43; 95 percent CI, 0.53 to 3.79; P = 0.48) and in the HC+AZ group (aHR, 0.43; 95 percent CI, 0.16 to 1.12; P = 0.09). rhampton7

Townhall More than anything, I want people to recover. I want the treatment to work for that reason, not because of anything Trump has said. I cannot fathom what it must be like to live one's life in such a way that a drug assisting people recover from a terrible disease might be irksome because that might mean that a politician was right about something. In short, Dr. Fauci has been right on this: Let's wait and see the results of real trials -- because right now both the optimistic and pessimistic information we have remains limited. With dozens of therapies being actively tested, I'll leave you with hopeful information about non-hydroxychloroquine treatments, including remdesivir. https://www.wsj.com/articles/bet-big-on-treatments-for-coronavirus-11586102963 rhampton7

F/N: Brazil weighs in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qm58cd4fneeci2/2020.04.15%20journal%20manuscript%20final.pdf?dl=0 >>Empirical treatment with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for suspected cases of COVID-19 followed-up by telemedicine Rodrigo Barbosa Esper M.D., Ph.D., Rafael Souza da Silva M.D. [et al] Affiliation/institution: Prevent Senior Institute, São Paulo, Brazil . . . . The Ethics Committee approved study number - CONEP/Plataforma Brasil CAAE: 30586520.9.0000.0008 (Número Parecer:3.968.699) ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT04348474 Abstract Background: Telemedicine can facilitate patient’s assessment with initial flu-like symptoms in the COVID-19 pandemic, moreover it promotes social isolation. Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are associated with reduction in COVID-19 patients' viral load. This study aims to assess whether empirical prescription of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for patients with suspected COVID-19 is associated with less need for hospitalization Methods: A telemedicine team evaluated suspected COVID-19 outpatients with flu-like symptoms, if no contraindications were detected, treatment with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was prescribed after consent from subjects. Patients were monitored daily by telemedicine appointments. Results: Of the 636 symptomatic outpatients, 412 started treatment with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin and 224 refused medications (control group). Need for hospitalization was 1.9% in the treatment group and 5.4% in the control group (2.8 times greater) and number needed to treat was 28 (NNT = 28). In those who started treatment before versus after the seventh day of symptoms, the need for hospitalization was 1.17% and 3.2%, respectively. Conclusion: Empirical treatment with hydroxychloroquine associated with azithromycin for suspected cases of COVID-19 infection reduces the need for hospitalization (p LT 0.001) Notice, the p value. KF kairosfocus

BO'H: You full well know that a research investigation into HCQ has been ongoing. Notice, at the end of the statement: " in progress at the IHU Méditerranée Infection: Treatment of respiratory infections with Coronavirus SARS-Cov2 by hydroxychloroquine Acronym: SARS-CoV2quine." Whatever APM may say, that relates specifically to the chart that you have seen. Beyond whatever admin debates and power games may obtain, there are some facts on the ground for you to account for. And, on the table is the issue of decision theory. KF kairosfocus

Jerry, they should have known who Dr Raoult is, and that his comment would be material to a responsible story. The lockstep march instead is a clue that what is happening is agit prop standing in the place of responsible journalism. KF kairosfocus

kf - which study is that reference for approval for? If it's not for the first study, it's not legitimate. Bob O'H

Wow, this is strong from Raoult:

In the current period, it seems that passion dominates rigorous and balanced scientific analysis and may lead to scientific misconduct. The article by Magagnoli et al. (Magagnoli, 2020) is an absolutely spectacular example of this.

Especially strong from someone who's only released study removed the patients who got worse from the analysis (all in the HCQ group), and then claimed that HCQ worked better. Bob O'H

first We were both trying to find it. We knew it existed. The reason I have returned to UD is because people like you are an incredible source of good information and this site is as good as any I found in the last month for info on virus. I found out about Zelenko and Raoult here. I found out about quercetin here. Not sure where I found out about MedCram. I found out about medmastery on my Twitter feed as someone who follows me criticized a HCQ study that was reviewed there. I’m not as interested in the evolution debate because the evidence is so overwhelming in one direction. Note the irony of using that term because that is the word Darwinist constantly used without providing any evidence. Similar on the virus. We are presented with irrelevant data and criticisms. Watching human nature in action is the fun part. jerry

So a question to all. Did the press create fake news on this survey? On an extremely inaccurate or essentially a fake survey? And who fell for it? We know some here have fallen for the fake news but it is widespread in the US and in other parts of the world. jerry

Jerry, I see you got there first. KF PS: Dr Rault's Tweet, courtesy GT:

Didier raoult @raoult_didier The study published in pre-print on 04/21 on Medrxiv by Maganoli et al has three major biases which invalidate its conclusions, in any case absurd and incompatible with the literature. We have detailed these biases in the letter below.

kairosfocus

F/N: After some search, Raoult's response: https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Response-to-Magagnoli.pdf KF kairosfocus

https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Response-to-Magagnoli.pdf Raoult response in English. jerry

What’s your opinion on this?

Maybe Bob O’H should express his opinion too. Still trying to find actual response by Raoult. Probably in French but always Google translate. News accounts often stay away from actual sources since they do not want to loose eyeballs from their pages. jerry

Jawa, First and foremost, key context: the USA is in a 4th gen civil war, where in part one side is the party of the worst holocaust in history, the ongoing mass killing of our living posterity in the womb, at the global rate of up to a million more per week. in 40 plus years that holocaust has killed 800+ million innocents, likely 1.4 billion, the US toll being 63+ million. Blood guilt is the most corrupting of all influences, far more so than money-lust. To enable that, the seven mountain centres of influence have been deeply compromised and corrupted. At the same time a 4th gen war is so subtle that even frontline combattants may not realise that they are fighting in a war. In my homeland, it took a full generation before it was more or less publicly acknowledged that 1980 marked a civil war, part of the wider Cold War, the real WW 3. (And yes, see my point? A whole world war with millions of casualties was fought in the shadows for 40+ years.) Where a major theatre of operations in such warfare is the information battle-space that dominates the war for minds, hearts and souls of men. A space in which souls are bought and sold as if they were commodities. In that context, agit prop operations with media amplification are a given. I hardly need to more than mention that atrocity stories and cover ups of atrocities are classic tactics of such a battlespace. Including of course, slander operations and censorship and lockout from key platforms. Ms Ingraham has a right to seriously complain and to defend herself. She is being targetted for blood libel. had the general media even a shred of integrity left, it would have properly acknowledged Dr Raoult and would have done a proper report on the man, his institution and work, doing a proper interview. If he does not speak English well, the use of interpreters is well known. Remember, this is the biggest single test of HCL + Azithro under an approved protocol. And, it is showing a 90 percent reduction from expected rate of death on a genuine n-BAU. Taking in Zn, that can go even higher. That we see a pile-on with singing off the same hymn sheet instead, is diagnostic. Unfortunately, a generation from now, people will still be confused, that's the power of agit prop amplified by dominant media. Turning to the critique she featured, if the facts are as she reports, then we are seeing yet another case of it doesn't work when it is already too late so it doesn't work, and oh we ignore synergy too. Something seems to be very wrong here. KF kairosfocus

KF, What’s your opinion on this? https://youtu.be/RexUJeWmzSE Thanks. jawa

So no, not irrelevant.

Yes, irrelevant. I believe Raoult has called the study irresponsible and am currently trying to find his actual analysis. The purpose of the treatment is to obviate hospitalization which usually indicates they have reached a stage beyond which the drug may have lost it’s effectiveness. These were all hospitalized so yes, study is irrelevant. There is still some value in the study to try to understand who progresses to what but not to hospitalization or not. Of Zelenko’s 450 cases identified as high risks only 4 hospitalized. Two died, one had cancer and died and under our current standard is a C19 death. He has had over 1450 total cases but did not administer treatment to them all as most were low risk. I don’t know hospitalization rate of Raoult patients. None of VA were identified as using zinc which eliminates the virus jerry

BO'H: we have in hand the largest study [under an approved protocol] regarding Covid-19 and the cocktail, HCQ + Azithromycin. The numbers tested now exceed 3,000 and the n-BAU numbers seem to be about 1500. The study has been carried out by perhaps the leading researcher on this sort of infectious diseases in France, some would argue Europe. His growing results show a steady pattern of a contrast of some 0.5% or less fatality rate contrasting to about 5% otherwise, i.e. we see the sort of 90% reduction highlighted by Dr Zelenko. Zelenko's own work is now in the 1,000 + class and with Zn supplements, is showing a 95% reduction relative to local nBAU. Where, Zelenko has indicated that he will publish shortly (he has already issued a general letter to the global physicians community), in collaboration with others, to be followed by a study. Raoult and his institute issue regular updates, bulletins and preprints. They generally publish 200 - 300 papers per year, roughly five per week. We also have a serious candidate mechanism of HCQ opening gateways for Zn ions [in addition to anti-inflammatory effects, shape shifting receptors making spike protein binding more difficult and the like], which are separately documented as suppressing viral replication [cf. Medcram]. HCQ has been documented chemically as a broad acting antiviral since 2005, and it is known that it readily goes into the body as a drug, one with manageable side effects. For instance Raoult collaborates with cardiologists who can veto use with a case at risk of arrhythmia. Now, on broad principles of laws of nature, drugs don't "know" they are in glass or in body, so once getting into the body and managing toxicity are off the table as fatal objections, activity in cells in glass will plausibly transfer to the same sorts of cells in the body. It would be nice to have further results from animal physiological analogues, but that is not in public so far as I know. Connecting dots, bats were being used as analogues in China, and it is likely, post SARS1, that antiviral candidates including HCQ were being tested. That would go to the sort of short list we saw in China's response. However, this aspect is speculative though useful as pointing to another aspect. It is highly unlikely that the results are by chance, and their common message that early intervention tells, seems inherently plausible. Otherwise, cases are being treated significantly later in the disease progress, which may well account for differences in outcomes: Machiavelli had a famous remark on analogy between political disorders and hectic fever, hard to diagnose early on, and by the time the course of the disease is obvious to all, it is too late to cure. In short, we have good reason to take the inherent plausibility of HCQ and of cocktails seriously and to act promptly. That's why, in the face of a pandemic with a fast-moving killer, that is grounds enough that the survey of physicians indicates that HCQ and Azithromycin are being taken seriously by frontline physicians. And, the gold standard fallacy is still a fallacy. The use of decision making scenario techniques allows recognition of n-BAU as baseline [and a fat cocktail is not that!] and to evaluate the plausible difference from serious candidate alternatives. Evidence is evidence, our job is to find ways to make it analytically tractable towards making decisions in good time. And already, recession is nipping at our heels. The lockdown model is non-viable as a long term solution and vaccines are a year out, if they are possible . . . HIV does not have one after nearly 40 years of trying. We must find a more sustainable solution, now. This is a policy-level, strategic decision making issue. As a statistician, you have doubtless done some decision theory work. Let's hear you on that question. KF kairosfocus

Jerry @ 13 -

Publishing data takes months. You can make available results and Zelenko has but a formal publication will not be quick.

We now have pre-print servers, so publication can be quick: medArkiv takes 2-3 days from submission to being put up online. The VA study included patients up to the 11th of April. Bob O'H

What do you think of this Hill article below?

Irrelevant as they were already very sick when administered the drug.

if you read the pre-print, you'll see that they corrected for the differnces in severity, and came to the same conclusion. So no, not irrelevant. Bob O'H

I have now added a first series of screen shots that summarise Dr Raoult's core claims. This includes a summary on what he is. kairosfocus

@12 Jerry

RH should include in his comments. that the stories he is posting are irrelevant.

That would be an intelligent disclaimer. Truthfreedom

but do we have anything other than his word about his treatment regime and its alleged efficacy

His protocol is now being used around the world and has not been shown ineffective. The NY Times did not find anything wrong with him. Over 60 doctors have signed up to use his treatment. His treatment is based on previous medical studies using these drugs. But only soon after the symptoms appear. The MedCram site listed zinc and a zinc ionophore as a prophylactic. Publishing data takes months. You can make available results and Zelenko has but a formal publication will not be quick. People need to make sure everything is absolutely correct and there is review etc. So to use this argument when people are dying is not useful. Eventually there will be lots of data but in the mean time a lot of people are dying, with a high probably that most are unnecessary. jerry

Dr Zelenko may well be right but do we have anything other than his word about his treatment regime and its alleged efficacy.? Have any of these other doctors been able to duplicate his results and publish their data? I would have thought that the earlier an intervention can be made the better is almost a truism in medical circles. But it's better to use something that you have good reason to believe works rather than just hope will work because there's going to be a lot of money and other resources that will have to be committed. Seversky

You guys are gonna ride the Raoult train

I like Zelenko's protocol better but Raoult has had very good success.

What do you think of this Hill article below?

Irrelevant as they were already very sick when administered the drug. It is bogus stories like this that are driving the news cycle. It is a form of fake news. The more interesting question is why the press doesn't know that the studies are irrelevant. Dr. Oz is making the same bogus analysis as he seems to be uninformed. Somebody should tell Savage that he is reacting to false information. RHampton should include in his comments. that the stories he is posting are irrelevant. The Science backs the use of HCQ especially when combined with zinc and early on. Any study of people already in the hospital is a bogus study. People diagnosed with the disease are told to wait and see how bad it gets and self isolate because often their immune system rids them of the virus. But many don't get there. They are not given any treatment. It is specifically at this time that a treatment should be administered but the FDA said no. jerry

RH7, there is substantial data on the table from significant researchers, kindly address it. US agitprop polarisation games over Fox News vs CNN etc are simply irrelevant. KF kairosfocus

FF, kindly note the concern raised by Dr Zelenko about trials that start treatment when it is late and compare the findings on nearly 3,000 patients compared with the de facto near business as usual: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/medicine/dr-zelenkos-hcq-based-alt-ernative-to-the-near-business-as-usual-n-bau-approach/ Today has been a busy one. KF kairosfocus

Dr. Michael Savage, who holds a Ph.D. in nutritional ethnomedicine from the University of California, Berkeley, condemned news networks that have induced "mass hysteria" among the U.S. populace while pushing hydroxychloroquine. "I was the only voice warning about Hydroxy," Savage tweeted on Wednesday. "Mass hysteria induced by Fox News. All wanted a 'magic bullet' - the hatred was worse than I have ever seen. Almost impossible to educate the brainwashed masses who distrust and hate science." rhampton7

Fox & Friends DR. OZ: There's a lot of variables, Brian. I got to say, I think at this point there is so much data coming from so many places, we are better off waiting for the randomized trials Dr. Fauci has been asking for. Otherwise, it's -- we keep reacting back and forth for studies that show opposite results. And a lot of it might have to do with when you get the medication. If you give it to people who are already having breathing tubes down their throat, it's not going to have the same kind effect as if you give it early. But we don't have randomized data from the United States to educate us well enough right now. DOOCY: Right. The key is trying to figure out how it all works and what we can do and what going forward works the best. rhampton7

JT, belittling. There is substance on the table to be addressed, that is the test you face. KF kairosfocus

@Kairofocus The mainstream media and other forces are hard at work trying to denigrate hydroxychloroquine. What do you think of this Hill article below? https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/493931-largest-analysis-of-hydroxychloroquine-use-finds-no-benefit-increased FourFaces

You guys are gonna ride the Raoult train all the way down, huh? Okay. If that’s how you wanna play it. Jim Thibodeau

Other physicians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCD9LV8FmC8 kairosfocus

One of the first countries to implement the HCQ was Bahrain. Their first case was on February 24 and they started using HCQ two days later. They are small but their death rate is one of the lowest in the world. Here is the link to the story https://www.newsofbahrain.com/bahrain/62616.html Here is the link to their data. I assume it is correct. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/bahrain/ Where are doom and gloom posters on this? jerry

Dr Raoult in his own voice on HCQ, with English sub-titles kairosfocus